Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Ben Nemtin on Bucket Lists and Living Without Regrets

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

The fundamental question of “what should we do with our lives and why?” is an interesting one. With life being finite, I’ve long been fascinated with how to make the most of my time. How can we create more satisfying, meaningful, and fulfilling lives? What types of goals should we aim to achieve? Taking care of our bodies and minds through fitness is one avenue, but there’s more to life than muscles. And so I’m excited to share today’s podcast, which is an interview I recorded with Ben Nemtin all about this topic. In case you’re not familiar with Ben, he’s the #1 New York Times best-selling author of What Do You Want To Do Before You Die? and his new book, The Bucket List Journal, is a practical guidebook for turning your goals and dreams into reality. He’s also the co-founder of The Buried Life movement, and is recognized as one of the World’s Best Motivational Speakers, having delivered over 500 keynotes to brands and Fortune 500 companies around the globe. His work has been featured on The Oprah Winfrey Show, The Today Show, CNN, NBC, FOX, ABC, CBS, and more. In our discussion, Ben and I chat about . . . - The value of surrounding yourself with people who inspire you - What a “buried life” is and the importance of living authentically to yourself - The power of putting your desires on paper - The primary reasons people don’t pursue their personal goals - Ways to create accountability and how to overcoming fear - Using mortality to think about life and motivate yourself - The importance of friends and staying in touch with loved ones - How to take care of your mental health - How to live without regret - And more . . . So, if you’re curious about how to foster a more meaningful, satisfying, and fulfilling life, listen to this podcast and let me know what you think! Timestamps: (0:00) - Legion VIP One-on-One Coaching: https://www.muscleforlife.show/vip (5:05) - Why did you write this book? (13:02) - What did you learn about yourself through this journey? (15:52) - How do you make time to enjoy your hobbies when you’re trapped in the day-to-day of life? (23:49) - How do you overcome fears? (31:05) - What do you think of the perspective of looking at failures as lessons as oppose to defeat? (37:18) - What is your advice to people who get overwhelmed about future goals? (41:39) - Are there experiences that stand out that were surprisingly meaningful? (48:49) - What is the mental health tool kit? (58:32) - What meaningful experiences changed your life? (1:08:55) - Where can people find you and your work? Mentioned on the show: Legion VIP One-on-One Coaching: https://www.muscleforlife.show/vip The Bucket List Journal - https://writeyourlist.com/ Ben’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bennemtin/ Ben’s website: www.bennemtin.com

Hello again, if you are a returning listener, if this is your first time here, hello. For the first time, I'm Mike Matthews. This is Muscle for Life. Thank you for joining me today to talk about what we should do with our lives and why. How should we spend our time? What type of life should we try to create for ourselves? What are we going to find satisfying and meaningful and fulfilling? What types of goals should we aim for? And to talk about these things, I invited Ben Nemton onto the show, and he is a number one New York Times bestselling author of What Do You Want to Do Before You Die? And he also has a new book out called The Bucket List Journal, which is a practical guidebook for turning your goals and dreams into reality.

Ben is also the co-founder of the Buried Life Movement and is recognized as one of the world's best motivational speakers, having delivered over 500 keynotes to brands and Fortune 500 companies around the world. 500 keynotes to brands and fortune 500 companies around the world. And in our discussion, Ben and I talk about the value of surrounding yourself with people who inspire you, what he means by a buried life, and the importance of living authentically for yourself and to yourself. Ben talks about the power of putting your desires on paper, actually writing down what you want and what you want to do. He shares effective ways to create accountability and overcome fear and more. Before we wade into it, do you want to transform your body,

but you just can't seem to break out of the rut? Have you read books and articles, watched videos, listened to podcasts, but still just aren't sure exactly how to put all the pieces together for you? Or maybe you know what to do, but you're still struggling to stay motivated and on track and do the things that you know you should do. Well, if you are nodding your head, I understand getting into great shape is pretty straightforward when you know what to do, but it's not easy. It takes time. It takes effort. It takes grit. And that's why I created my VIP one-on-one coaching service. We take people by the hand and we give them everything they need to build their best body ever.

We give them a custom diet plan, training plan, supplementation plan. If they want supplements, you don't have to take supplements. We coach them on how to do every exercise correctly. We give them emotional encouragement and support, accountability, and the rest of it. And we are pretty good at it too. We have worked with thousands of men and women of all ages and abilities and lifestyles and help them build a body they can be proud of. And guess what? We can probably do the same for you. Our service is not for everyone, but if you want to find out if it is right for you, if there is a fit, head on over to muscleforlife.show slash VIP.

That is muscleforlife.show slash VIP and book your free consultation call now. Hey, Ben, thanks for taking the time to come and chat with me and my lovely listeners. Thanks, Mike. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah, thanks for taking the time to come and chat with me and my lovely listeners. Thanks, Mike. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah, same. This is a discussion that I've been looking forward to. A mutual acquaintance of ours, Alex, put us in touch.

And I mostly talk about fitness stuff here in the podcast. And so I enjoy going a little bit off script now and then when I think it's worthwhile, not just for me, but for my listeners. And the topic of goal achievement and just maybe a little bit more broader of what should we do with our lives? What type of goals should we have and why? should we have and why is always something that resonates with me personally and with a lot of my listeners because a lot of them are like me in that we have other things outside of our fitness that we care about. Fitness is important, but it's not everything. A lot of us have families and have businesses and jobs and would like to have a fulfilling,

satisfying, meaningful life. And that requires more than money and muscles, unfortunately, if it were only that simple, right? So I've been looking forward to this discussion with you. And I thought where we might start is a question for you. This broad topic, I guess, that I just kind of outlined. You also, you have a book about bucket listing, essentially. I mean, I haven't read the book, so I'm probably oversimplifying it, but I know that your first bestselling book was on that topic, right? And now you have a new book out, The Bucket List Journal. And what drew you to this? And the reason I ask that is for so long now, people have been

talking about this and writing about this. And, you know, as a writer, I don't know about you, but when I'm thinking about what do I want my next project to be, I have to find something that I really am interested in. It's not very fun to, even if something kind of makes sense on paper, so to speak, to just slog through it. It needs to be something where I'm like, I think I can do something a little bit different. Maybe I can't come up with any quote unquote new ideas because what ideas are really new in the grand scheme of things, but maybe I can come up with kind of a new way to put things together for the readership. How did that work for you with this topic? Well, I think it was really came out of the simple fact that this whole idea completely changed my life unexpectedly. I

didn't expect to be a writer. I didn't expect to be doing what I'm doing right now. In fact, when this whole thing started, I was in a very bad place. I was actually pretty depressed. I was in university. I grew up in Victoria, British Columbia in Canada. I was playing pretty high level rugby. I was on the under 19 national rugby team. And rugby, where I grew up, was like football in the South. I mean, it's just a big, big sport in the West Coast of Canada. And I put a lot of pressure on myself to succeed athletically and academically. I had an academic scholarship to university. And this pressure that I put on myself as we were training for the World Cup, which was in Paris, France, it just caught up to me. And I played the fly half position, which is like

the quarterback and the field goal kicker in one. It's just like a very high pressure position. And I started worrying about what if I miss an easy field goal at the world cup? And I had missed a big kick in our championship game at the end of our high school season. And so I was like, damn it, that can't happen again. PTSD. Exactly, exactly. And that's exactly what it was. So I would worry about it at night, you know, when I was trying to go to sleep. And this anxiety caused me to have trouble sleeping. And ultimately, this constant pressure that I put on myself, this anxiety, this lack of sleep, it all contributed to me sliding into a depression.

And I'd never experienced anything like this before in my life. I was always happy-go-lucky. I had a, you know, high energy group of friends, A-type, you know, and a great family support system. But all of a sudden I couldn't go to school. And then I, and I couldn't go to rugby practice. And I, and I got, I was shut into my parents' house. I couldn't leave the house. So I dropped out of school, got dropped from the national rugby team, couldn't leave the house. And ultimately I was crippled by this. And it was actually my friends that ultimately pulled me out of the house to come work with them in a new town for the summer. And I started to meet new types of people. And I started to meet these kids that had already traveled or they'd started businesses.

And I realized that these kids I was meeting gave me energy. They inspired me. And I started to understand that some people gave me energy and some people drew energy from me. And I realized that I needed to be around people that gave me energy. So I made this conscious decision after that summer away. And as I was starting to feel

back to myself, you know, I think it's important to note that it wasn't just that that led me to coming out of this depression. You know, I, I started talking about what I was going through as well to a therapist. I realized that I wasn't the only one that was experienced this. I, you know, I got a job, so I started feeling some confidence and we can talk about some different things that I've learned over the past to kind of, to, to battle the, the dips. But what was really important was I made this conscious decision to surround myself with people that inspired me. And that ultimately would, would completely change my life because I came back home and I thought about this kid from, from high school that made movies. And I thought, that's who I want to hang out with that. I want to make a movie. And so I called him up and we started talking about this, this idea of making a film about

everything we wanted to do before we died. And then we would also help other people achieve their dreams. And we'd go on a road trip and we'd tackle our bucket list and we'd help other people achieve their dreams. And we'd make a short video and we'd show it to our friends. So we gathered two other buddies and we beg borrowed and stole to get this road trip off the ground. We got a secondhand camera on eBay. We got a board and RV. We started throwing parties as fundraisers to pay for gas. And in 2006, we hit the road for a two week road trip to go after our bucket list and help other people. And what was unexpected was that people heard about it

and they wanted to help. So random strangers would send us emails saying, I saw your bucket list online. I saw you want to ride a bull. Well, my friend has a bull ranch. He can get you on a bull. Or, you know, I saw you wanted to make a toast at a stranger's wedding.

My best friend's getting married. I'm the best man. I can get you in. And then people, they sent us their dreams asking for our help. So we got all of these dreams coming in. People saying, can you help me do this? Can you help me do that? And we were like, wow, this is crazy.

You know, we got to keep doing this. So we did it again the next summer. And so this two-week road trip, it ended up lasting 10, 15 years. And the list items that we thought were completely impossible, because when we wrote our list, we just pretended we had $10 million and we pretended we could do anything. So we had big list items. So these big list items like make a TV show, be interviewed by Oprah, play basketball with Obama, have a beer with Prince Harry, you know, write a New York Times bestselling book.

Slowly, they all started to fall off the list. And then we realized that helping other people achieve their dreams was even more fulfilling than doing those big ticket list items. And so this whole bucket list journey, ultimately, not the full reason, but one of the reasons I got depressed was I was living the high school dream, but it wasn't my dream. And I was living this, going down this path that I thought I wanted for myself or what was expected of me. And what the bucket list did was it forced me to actually write down what was important to me, not other people. And this was my roadmap that I started to go down.

And because we pretended that there were no rules and no limits, we didn't limit ourselves. And we surprised ourselves with what was possible. And it was liberating to write down my dreams. When we talked about it, which was, there was like this fear of like, oh, like, what are people going to think? We're doing this crazy thing. Like, well, you know, we're trying to play basketball with Obama.

Like, you know, what if we fail? But we were surprised by how people stepped up to help us. And so this whole journey, I realized that like this, this path was like me coming back to who I truly was. And then I started looking at the research and that most people, their biggest regret on their deathbed is not living for them. 76% of people on their deathbed, their number one regret is I wish I would have lived for me, not for other people. And I realized, wait, this whole project that we started was actually inspired by a poem written over 150 years ago called The Buried Life.

So The Buried Life is the name of our project and it's the name of a poem written by Matthew Arnold in 1852. And Matthew Arnold's poem, which my buddy Johnny was assigned to an English class when we started this whole thing, talked about this exact same thing as well, which is that we have these things that we want to do and we get inspired to go after them, but the day-to-day buries them. And so it's all about living your buried life. What I've stumbled into is really, this is the biggest problem on earth. And it's been hundreds

of years that people have been feeling this. This is the human condition. And it's even more so now. And I think this is what makes most people unhappy that I've realized that there's like, there's a better life for all of us. And it's not as hard as we think. And it starts with writing it down. And that's why I think a bucket list is so important. What did you learn about yourself? What did you think maybe previously? What did you think maybe previously was important to you? Or maybe you didn't really thought about it, but you were pursuing your athletics and your academics. And then what did you conclude is actually important to you? Obviously, playing sports is, I'm sure you still found it fun, but there was something

that was missing with, you know, what you were doing previously versus what you learned through this expedition or these expeditions. I started to learn what actually gave me the energy that made me feel most alive. And so that's kind of what I try and use as a marker of success is like how I feel and the, and how true to myself I am being there for how much energy I have when I'm doing something. So when I look back at, at high school, I realized that, you know, I liked rugby, but I really was doing it to be cool. You know, I was doing it because it was the, the, the big sport and I didn't love it. And right now, for instance, like I fell in love with tennis and I, I, I wish I could play tennis every single day. Like I just, I, I love it. And maybe

I didn't like the pressure of the high, high level. And maybe I would love rugby if I didn't have to play it at the national level, right? And so I think I realized I put so much pressure on myself that that squashed the actual joy of playing because all I was thinking about was performing. And I think that I've experienced that a couple of times in my life. You know, when I think back to any type of dip that I've had emotionally, a lot of times it's connected to the fact that I'm not being authentic to myself in a big part of my life, whether that's in my career and something that I'm doing most of my time, or whether that's in a relationship that I'm in. And when I sort of course correct, that helps me emotionally. And

I start to get my energy back and I start to feel more like myself and I start to feel more alive. and I start to feel more alive. And I think that we all sometimes need a reminder to do those things, or we need to slow down to think about, okay, what is actually important to me? Because it's so easy to get swept up by the day-to-day. And so when you stop and reflect and like put things on paper, it's a powerful thing.

And also when you identify, these are the things that are gonna bring me joy. these are the things that are gonna bring me joy. These are the things that are gonna bring me happiness. And you create ways to build accountability around those things. So you actually are continually to do those things or drive towards that one thing that is really important to you,

whether it's big or small, right? That accountability is key. So those, you got to build those structures around those things that are important to you and around your, your list. And what are your thoughts about that in the context of the reality that, uh, that most of us are, are facing in that we've set up a life for ourselves that, uh, is demanding. I mean, I can speak to myself personally. I mean, I can relate to some of what you're saying. I started in the fitness racket with a book. I wrote a book not because I didn't even want to become a fitness guy, really. I just wanted to write. I liked writing. I've always liked writing. I actually was more interested

in going off and writing fiction. But I was like, oh, I've learned some stuff in fitness. And I also, similar to you, I have a story that people resonate with, a fitness story journey, so to speak. I'm just going to write a book, kind of minimum viable product, maybe 50,000 words. And it's just going to be the book that I wish somebody would have given me when I was 18 and said, just do this. Don't bother with all the stuff you're about to do for the next seven years. Just do this instead. And that book did really well. And then I was like, OK, that's interesting. That's a I'll follow that up. And I wrote another one and wrote another one. And if I fast forward to today, that's still the work that I enjoy the most. But I don't really,

quote unquote, get to do much of it these days because I also have this business that is growing. And, you know, again, no complaints. But my point was saying all that is if I think to somebody like me and I know there are a lot of people listening who also have set up a life for themselves that demands a lot of time and a lot of attention, a lot of energy. set up a life for themselves that demands a lot of time and a lot of attention, a lot of energy, but that they're also succeeding at. And in a way that almost makes it a little bit more of a trap because it's easier just to keep doing what's working and just to keep winning, even though that might not be as satisfying as maybe some other activity altogether. There's always a little bit of satisfaction that comes with more winning. How would somebody go about maybe even setting up an experiment, so to speak, of what it could be like if they were doing something else? Or is it maybe

try to have something else on the side? You know, many artists talk about that, to always have some sort of hobby, some sort of creative activity that you do just because you enjoy it. What are your thoughts? It's something I struggle with as well. And so I think about it. I try to think about it a lot because I always want to do more. And I, and I think that we are, for the most part, we are conditioned to, um, grow, right. And we're always wanting to, to grow and build. And that is what we see around us. And we see that more is better. And it's, it's, you will always want to make more money, you always want to grow and build your, your business or your career and what you want to do. And I think that

it's important for me to sometimes stop and think, okay, is this what I really want? Like, do I actually want to do more? Like, and maybe I do, but what I've realized at this moment is actually, I actually want the opposite. Right now, I want to simplify my life and I want to, I want to do less. And my metric of success at this point in my life is is do I sleep throughout the night without waking up a lot? Because for me, I'm someone that worries. And when I'm not sleeping well, it's because I'm thinking about something else that I'm worried about. And so when I'm sleeping through the night, I'm not worried. And so I try and look at what do I need to do during the day to sleep soundly? And that means taking time for

things like playing tennis, playing spike ball, doing things with my friends, people that I, you know, I love to be around, you know, investing relationships that are important to me, doing some sort of like creative pursuit. So I think for me, first of all, was the awareness of, suit. So I think for me, first of all, was the awareness of, okay, I'm conditioned to just go, go, go and do more and do more. Is that what I actually want? Like, is that success for me? I know it's success for a lot of people and I, and I think it's success, but is that what I really want? And then if the answer is maybe not really like, yes, but there's also other things that are important to me. It's then defining what those other things are important to you. So what does your success look like? So for you, it might be like, I love writing and I want to,

I want to write another book, but I don't have time. Okay. Well, how do you prioritize time for that thing that you know is important to you? And that's where the accountability piece comes in. So what does that mean? Well, that means talking about it, sharing with the people around you that this is something that's important to you. Because by talking about it, you're going to feel accountable to them, right?

I'm sure that, you know, you can speak to the power of training with a partner, whether it's for a marathon or, you know, a training partner, that accountability buddy, that's what drives you forward. So how can you create that same accountability around these personal passions that you know are going to fuel you and ultimately understand that by doing that, it's going to fuel the rest of your growth as a professional, right? By you expressing and doing that thing that is,

that you love so much, that's going to fuel you and the rest of your business because you're going to deploy that energy in any way that you wish. So by taking time for the things that you love, that gives you energy. And so it's sort of like this idea of new leadership. You put yourself first, and then that puts you in a position to serve others and ultimately make your greatest impact. And so if you've defined that writing is important to you, what are other ways you can create accountability? Well, you can put in your calendar, you can block it out. And just like you protect time for recording a podcast, you're not going to miss a recording for a podcast. You need to protect that time for writing with the same vigilance. And if you have an

accountability buddy checking in with you, or you said, let's say you tell me, okay, I'm going to write a book. And I say, all right, every month I'd like an update on how things are going. You're 77% more likely to achieve your goal if you have someone check in with you or if you send regular updates. All of this comes from research out of Cornell by a psychologist named Tom Gilovich, who basically found that there's three reasons why we don't pursue our personal goals. He's the one that found this fact that I mentioned in the beginning of this podcast, which is that the biggest regret people have on their deathbed is not living for them. And most people regret the things they don't do, not the things they did. So 76% of people, their biggest regret on their deathbed is,

I wish I would have lived for me. So the reason why the majority of people have these regrets of inaction is because there's no deadlines with personal goals, which is why we got to create accountability. We usually are waiting to feel inspired to go after them, but the inspiration rarely hits. So we just have to create our own inspiration through action. And then fear stops us. And it's the fear of what other people think or the fear of failure. And we need to identify real fear and imagine fear. And I'm sure you can speak to the fear that maybe almost stopped you from putting out that first book. Because you were like, oh, I'm not really a writer.

Like, what are people going to think? What if this flops? You know, what if people see me as a huge failure? And that's what stops most people. But you followed that inner passion, which is like a true part of yourself. And that passion, when you expressed it, it led you to this unexpected career, which is, you know, I think what happens sometimes when you follow that true self, it leads you in this, in this unexpected, down this unexpected path.

Can you speak more about overcoming fears? Because those three points that you just mentioned are, I mean, based on my many interactions with people over the years, mostly around fitness, but also around business as well. People will reach out to me regarding that. I found those found those three things coming up often, but that fear one seems to be particularly debilitating. And I wish I had some great words of wisdom that I could share myself based on my own experiences. But if I'm

being perfectly honest, and I'm not saying this to try to sound cool, this is quite the opposite. If I were inauthentic, so to speak, I would just pontificate and tell somebody else's ideas, pretend like they were my own. But really, for whatever reason, that has never been a big issue for me personally. And I can't tell you why. I don't know if it's just a personality thing. I'm not saying I'm fearless superhero kind of guy. No, but I can't also say that. Yeah, I almost didn't put out that book because I was afraid of what people would think. I could say that if I wanted to sound empathetic or if I wanted to get people to to feel like they have a connection with me. But that wasn't the case for me. So I'm just being honest. So, so I'm, I'm curious, uh, what you've found maybe yourself and then also just in your line of work and your own journey in your career, what has helped people overcome those internal obstacles to

action? Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that because like, I think that people are going to resonate with, with probably both feelings, you know, I think probably the minority will resonate with you, but I do know people that for whatever reason, they just, they're kind of blessed with this gift of not really caring what other people think. And I think that that is like something that I wish that I had and I admire it. Because I think too, like that, usually those people are very authentic. I mean, it can be narcissism as well.

And I would like to think that's not the case with me. Yeah, no, I think, and yeah, I think there's a definitely a fine line there. But I do think that what I found is that there's two types of fears that generally stop us. One is the fear of what other people think or the fear of failure. What I found is that these fears don't really go away. Like I tried to conquer these fears for a while. And then I started to understand that these are like taxes you have to pay to achieve your goals. Like they're not going anywhere.

It's something that that discomfort that you feel, that fear, actually, it's not a negative. It's a positive. That means that you're growing. You're learning about yourself. So at the very least, when you feel this fear and you do it and you're vulnerable or what have you, you learn about yourself. Even if you don't come anywhere close to achieving, even if you fall flat on your face, at least you learn something.

At least you exercise that muscle of being uncomfortable, which is something you have to do to succeed and grow. You're not going to get anywhere by just coasting. You have to take risks. You have to put yourself out there. And what I found is when you do that, and when you kind of are vulnerable, even if the outcome is not what you think you want, something positive comes from that. And so I like to kind of think about the idea that I have this fear of what other people think. But if I'm honest with myself, like people are just not thinking about me as much as I think they are. It's like in the gym, you know, people, people will think everyone's looking at me like, no, they're really not. They're looking at themselves. It's like in the gym, you know, people, people will think everyone's looking at

me like, no, they're really not. They're looking at themselves. That's it. That's all they see is themselves in the mirror. Exactly. And that's a good metaphor for life. Like that's all people see is themselves. And if they're not thinking about themselves, they're thinking about what other people, they think other people are thinking about them. Right? So it's just the truth that people are not thinking about you as much as you, as you think they are. It was just like, I love this saying. It's like when I, in my twenties, I was worried about what other people thought in my forties, didn't care what other people thought. And in my sixties, I realized they were never thinking about me in the first place. So you can sort of skip the grief and just

jump ahead to your sixties and realize that people don't just don't care as much as you think they do in a good way. They're also more supportive than you think. The only way that we cross things off our list is through the help of other people. And it's so they could only help us if we shared. And so most people don't share their goals because of the fear and it is such a powerful thing to share because one you then build accountability because you feel accountable to people you share with but you also allow people to help you and if you ask for help in a in a very like real way in a in a authentic creative way i find that people are willing to

to help you out and that's the fear of what other people think, which is a big block. The fear of failure, I like to look at it like this. Like if I'm afraid to go after my goal, or I'm just sort of waiting for the right time, I failed. I did not achieve my goal. So at least when I try and I fail, what I learned from that really outweighs any potential hit to my reputation. And so those are the types of things that I have experienced with fear. You know, I do a ton of speaking. I speak maybe 150 times a year.

I still get stage fright. It's not going anywhere. But what I realized is that feeling of anxiety that I feel, that feeling is very close to excitement. Anxiety and nervousness is very close to excitement. So when I'm anxious, I think, wow, I'm pretty excited. And I can shift some of that anxiety into excitement. That also has a parallel in athletics. You'll find that with a lot of high-performing athletes. We'll have that same type of, is it anxiety? Is it excitement before the big game or before the big race? And, you know,

I read about that. I remember that from a book. I believe it's, was it called Peak Performance? Brad Stolberg and Steve Magnus, I believe. And they talked about, they both were high level competitive runners, I believe, and have worked with a lot of high level competitive athletes. And I just remember in that book, them talking about working with these athletes and helping them kind of reframe that quote unquote anxiety as excitement. And even with a self-talk, like I'm just excited right now. This is good. I'm ready to perform as opposed to making it a negative thing and maybe even criticizing themselves. Yeah, I wish I would have known that years ago, but I think it's an important tool. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I can relate to some degree. I played a fair amount of ice hockey growing up and not, not too competitively, not at a very high level, but at a, I guess maybe enough of a competitive level to experience a bit of that. And I suppose I was young enough to just be able to enjoy it, but I can understand when it comes to when it's really, there's, there's something on the line, there's real stakes. You know, I, I understand that. What are your thoughts about the it's truly just a perspective of and this is this would be for I mean, I guess it could be for both of these types of fears of looking at the things that we want to do or that we try to do as experiments as opposed to events as looking at something, say, writing a book, right? Even if we haven't consciously

expressed it, there is a hypothesis here of why this book is worth writing, why people will want to read it, why it could be successful. And we do the work and we put it out there. And if it doesn't exactly meet our expectations, that could be viewed as a failure. We have failed. Or it could be viewed as this is kind of the first iteration of this experiment hasn't quite gone the way that we intended. Now, what can we learn about this? How can we revise our hypothesis? How can we revise the book? How can we come up with a new experiment to see if that can bring us closer to the results that we're seeking?

Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think that takes the pressure off, you know, and then you're just like a life scientist trying these different things and iterating. And I always find that I found that I don't really believe in failure. I've always found that any quote unquote failure has always been a pivot in a direction that I needed to go. And so when you put these things out there, you really do learn, you learn about yourself, you learn about what works as well, about, you know, what is, um, not only resonating, but is this something I actually want to do? Like, you don't really

know if you want to be a writer until you do it. And that's, I think this also relates to career. You know, I think that we think that we have to be on this path that is linear and move up the ladder because that's what we've been, that's what we see as success. And it's very scary to shift your career because you think you're starting from the bottom. And I've experienced this before. I started a production company with the same guys that I started The Buried Life with, The Bucket List Journey with, and we started making TV shows. And we were grinding for years and we sold some shows to MTV and ABC and we were just about to get investment.

And I was like, oh crap, I don't like this. And I started to feel depressed again. And so I told you like when I'm not, when I started to feel depressed, I'm a big part of my life is not in alignment with who I really am. And I realized that it was the work I was doing. I was, I didn't love the people that I was interacting with on the network side and the production company and the entertainment business as a whole. I didn't like that 99% of the work that I did would never see the light of day because it was all development that ultimately, you know, one or 2% of your projects get greenlit. And so I was really struggling because I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I was talking with my uncle who was a producer his whole life, uncle Bill. And I was like, uncle Bill, like,

I don't know what to do. I feel like we just are finally made it. We're about to get investment. And now I'm going to jump ship. And I'm going to, what am I going to, I'm going to start from the bottom of like, and he's like, yo, no, no, no. You're not, you're not starting from the bottom. You're recycling your career. You're taking everything that you've learned from this and you're, you're pivoting and you're moving in a new direction. So, and that reframing of, of the idea of recycling my career, for whatever reason, it changed my perspective. I was like, oh yeah, like I've, I've gained a lot of skills from producing, you know, and, and I can apply that to my next thing. And that's

at serendipitously. I got it. I got invited to do a TEDx talk and talk about fear. Like if I'm being honest, like I did not want to do it because I was like, screw this. I'm not like having something that's on the internet forever. He had been doing a TEDx talk. Like it was terrifying, but I knew at that point that the reason why I didn't want to do it was the reason that I should do it because I felt like something would come out of it if I did it. Now I thought that what was going to come out of it was a huge TEDx talk that was going to get millions of views. Well, of course, that didn't happen, but it did okay. Someone saw it that was planning an event.

They reached out to their speaker agency. The speaker agency reached out to me, asked me if I would come speak at the event. I was like, okay, I go. And that started my speaking career and it's totally changed my life. And I love speaking because it's like a big part of, you know, what I feel like I love to do is like talking with people in person. And so it changed my whole direction. And I realized, oh yeah, I just recycled my career. So the idea of reframing it, like how, whether it's your career or whether it's like a side project, a passion, you know, you just take that first step, see what happens. You don't have to have the whole map, the whole plan mapped out. That first step, once you do that, you'll figure out the second step and just take it day by day. If it's fueling

you and you're seeing a good reaction, keep doing it. If you get energy from it, keep doing it. And if you really love it, make sure that you protect time to do that thing and carve out, whether it's spending time with your family, you know, quality time, whether it's writing the book, uh, or whether it's training for the marathon or climbing Everest. Like there's no rules with these goals. The only rule is that it's important to you. And I think that, you know, I used to think about a bucket list as like adventure travel. And then I realized that it needs to include all 10 categories of life. And so you want to think about like your adventure travel goals, but you also want to think about, you know, obviously your physical health goals, your mental health goals, your

creative goals, your relationship goals, your material goals, your financial goals, professional. So there's 10 categories. And that's basically what the Bucket List Journal is built around is like, you break down the list writing process, and then you start to move through those barriers that I talked about, which is like create accountability, create inspiration through action, and move through fear. And what would you say to people who heard you list off those things and are already overwhelmed? Because it sounds like, wait a minute, I don't know, I barely have time for like two of those lists, let alone 10. Just what are you drawn to if you think about your future self? Like imagine your 90-year-old self and you ask your 90-year-old self, what would I regret not doing? Use death as a reminder that you're just not going to be here that long. And I think we think we have all this time, but we really don't. And that's why people

push these things because they're like, oh, I got time. I got time. But 76% of people realize I'm out of time. Like I'm on my deathbed. And so this question that we started asking people 15 years ago was what do you want to do before you die? That question that we started asking people 15 years ago was, what do you want to do before you die? That's how we would ask people what's on their list. And that's what we asked ourselves because the thought of death actually made us think about life. And so I've always found death to be a great reminder. And I don't think we think about death or we talk about death enough, but you know, in ancient Egypt, they would roll in a dead body to their big feasts and be like, hey, this will be us one day. Enjoy your meal.

Celebrate. Be merry. And so now death is taboo and we don't talk about it and we don't think about it enough. And it happens to me all the time. I see someone in their 90s walking down the street, you know, shuffling along. And my first thought is not, that will be me. My first thought is, I don't think about it. The only thing that we can count on in our life, if we are lucky, is that will be me. Everything else we can't count on.

But we can count on death. And, but what we don't know is when we're going to die. And so if we're able to keep death close to us, then that's a great perspective. Because you hear about it all the time, right? You hear stories, you know, I had cancer and I survived and now everything changed. Or my partner died or my dad died. And as soon as that happened, I changed my life. I changed what I partner died or my my dad died and as soon as that happened i changed my life i changed what was what i focused on my perspective changed so it takes

like the death of a loved one or a near-death experience to shake us enough to really understand what's important to us so how can we get that same perspective without going through that trauma for me it's it's been around like just myself, I'm going to die, I'm going to die, I'm going to die. I have this app called WeCroak that reminds me I'm going to die five times a day. It sounds morbid, but it's actually like, it's kind of funny and it works. And so I think you start there. It's a long-winded way of answering your question. You don't have to have a hundred things on your list. You don't have to have list items in every category of life. This is not checking boxes. This is just taking some quiet time to think about what you really

want and what is really important in your life. And that could be one thing. That could be five things. That could be a hundred things. But what I found is what's helpful. Sometimes I've been overwhelmed just looking at a blank page and thinking, okay, what are the things that I want? So I just found it helpful to create a bit of a structure to the list writing process and to think about it in sections. And so that's why I created those 10 categories of life. And also to remind people that a bucket list is more than just adventure and travel, right? It's more than skydiving. It's more than travel to Europe.

This is your true self. This is your list of all the joys, you know, all the things that are going to fuel you and make you happy. And so that's just by default, then you should think about all areas of your life. Hey there, if you are hearing this, you are still listening, which is awesome. Thank you. And if you are enjoying this podcast, or if you just like my podcast in general, and you are getting at least something out of it, would you mind sharing it with a friend or a loved one or a a not-so-loved one even, who might want to learn something new, word of mouth helps really bigly in growing the show. So if you think of someone who might like this episode or another one, please do tell them about it. Are there some experiences, maybe

your own or just other people's experiences that stand out in your mind as particularly meaningful, maybe surprisingly meaningful. I like that you mentioned that the bucket list is not just for looking at the rocks and eating the food, because sure, that can be entertaining. I've done a fair amount of that myself. My wife is from Europe. When we were dating, I would go over there often. We would just go have fun. And sure, it's fun, but it was not some religious experience. It was looking at the rocks and eating the food and having a good time. Sure. But if I look at what has really helped me grow as an individual, it's not that. not that. So I'm just curious if there are some bucket list experiences, again, your own or others that stand out as that really made a difference in some way and maybe that are not obvious. Yeah, that is one that comes to mind. So we were in D.C., we're trying to play basketball with Obama. So we're just sort of hustling around, meeting with people. We didn't know what we

were doing. We were just trying to hustling around, meeting with people. We didn't know what we were doing. We were just trying to impersonating Secret Service agents. Exactly. I actually went into the YMCA because I saw the Secretary of Treasury go in and go for swimming laps. And I just had to follow him into the swimming pool with a towel on. I didn't even have a bathing suit. And so I could try and talk with him as he came up for air. So we were like, I mean,

anyways, we were running around, literally. And because we typically would always have, we ask people, what do you want to do before you die? And as we sort of were wandering the streets, we asked these two guys that were at the monuments. I forget which monument they were at, but anyways. Like, what do you want to do before you die? And they say, oh, it's funny. We're actually doing something that we've always wanted to do. Always wanted to visit Washington, tour the monuments. We actually are old buddies,

but we haven't seen each other in like 15 years. We're like, oh, cool. Like, that's great. Anything else on your list? And they said, well, you know, it's funny. We had two other friends that when we were 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old, every summer we would all go to this one lake and we would spend the summers there. But the four of us haven't seen each other for 40 years. And it'd be really cool to see that. We haven't talked with them. It'd be really cool to see them. So we organized this surprise where we contacted two other guys

and surprised the ones that we met at that lake, at that location. So they hadn't seen each other in 40 years. And all of a sudden they met each other. And right away, it was like they were best friends and 15 years old again, even though they hadn't seen each other for so long. And so they're like doing cannonballs into the lake.

I mean, they're just like having a time. And we hung out with them afterwards, barbecued. But it reminded me of what we might be, the four of us, because they were four guys in their 60s and we were four guys in our 20s. And so I thought that is exactly like like us and and then i learned that one of the top five regrets of the dying is i wish i would have stayed in contact with friends i realized wow that doesn't cost any money you know that's

picking up the phone and the importance of investing in relationships that are important to you anything that is important that you. Anything that is important, that you want to invest in, it takes energy. It takes time. You know, do anything you have to be intentional. You have to put the time in. So that means like defining who's important to you in your life and, and, and staying in contact with them and, and building that relationship. So that was a meaningful one because it was, it didn't feel like it was going to affect me in any way. And it also didn't feel like it was going to be a big give. But after that, those guys, every summer they kept meeting up.

And then, you know, about four years ago, one of the guys passed away from cancer and his buddy sent me a note. He's like, yeah, he told me when he was dying that he was really grateful that they connected again, you know, and not just reconnected, but reestablished their relationship. Yeah, yeah, that's a great story. And just to that point of making time for relationships, that's something that I've had to consciously do. I actually on this bike back here, I spend 30 spend 30 minutes on it every day. And I'll usually alternate between reading, I read on my phone, Kindle app, or I'll make a phone call while I'm on because I'm doing like moderate intensity, I can have a conversation, I wouldn't record a

podcast, but I can have a phone conversation. And sometimes it's work stuff. But just as often, it's personal, it's just calling somebody, it's calling my brother-in-law, who I've been friends with, good friends with, best friends with since I was 16. And he lives in California. And so it takes a little bit of effort. We don't see each other in the gym. I have to call him. He has to call me or a few other friends of mine who I'd like to stay in touch with. And just that's something that, though, a year or so ago, I would say is when I started doing that. But before that, I didn't explicitly make that time to do it. And I would realize that I would go, it could be a couple of weeks without even talking really to any friends outside of, you know, I work with some friends, but it's a little bit different when what we're talking about is work. It's not quite the same. That resonates for me. Like I, so what I've done is I have my favorites on my phone, you know, the starred contacts. I just put all the people that I want to build a relationship with so that when I'm driving, I just go to my favorites. I'm like, Oh, whoever I talked to in

a while, boom, make a call. And even if you just leave a message, you know, or a voice note or check in with a text, you know, that builds the fabric of the relationship over time. And those are the things that get pushed under the rug, you know, the day to day, as you said, like, you'll go and you won't even realize you're like, oh, the shit, like, I haven't talked with my best friend for two months, you know? And so, so for instance, like the, those favorites, that's, that's an accountability structure, right? Your list is an accountability structure, putting in your calendar, talking to your friend, your brother-in-law being like, Hey, listen, man, like days move quickly. And, uh, like I want to make sure that we stay connected. So, you know, like, want to make sure that we stay connected.

So, you know, like, let's make sure that we prioritize time to see each other. Like, let's do two trips a year or whatever. Let's call each other once, at least once a month by communicating that, right. You're going to build that accountability because now you've said it and now it's real. And now he's going to be like on the other end of that, keeping you accountable and you're going to keep him accountable. And that's why when you have like a guy's trip that you do once a year, it happens because you do it every year. You've said, we're going to do this every year

and it's non-negotiable. You set precedents and it happens. The accountability shows up in different ways, but the first thing is identifying it so you can then build the accountability. And the first thing is identifying it so you can then build the accountability. You've mentioned mental health a couple of times in this interview. And in your book, you talk about the mental health toolkit. What does that mean exactly? What does that look like? So this is, I think, one of the benefits of going through struggle, which we've all been through, is a lot of times you learn about yourself by going through that hard time.

And so what I've learned is habits that are good for me that now I can, when I go through any type of stress, I can utilize those and practice those. Yeah, I do call it my mental health toolkit. I just think everyone should have their own mental health toolkit of habits you know work for you. It might be going to the gym. It might be uh making sure that you get enough sleep you know it could be talking about what you're going through to a therapist or a friend or a loved one and so some of the things that have helped me in and that still help me are you know obviously exercise um but i think for me like doing things, I should just be a tennis podcast, playing tennis. It's just like, I found it meditative, you know, I just love the, I love the sport.

So being able to have time to do that, being able to have time to exercise. I also find value from meditation. So I do transcendental meditation. I actually think it's very helpful for me when I can't sleep. And as I said, like I worry a lot. So that's, if I don't sleep, I'm in trouble. So I need to get my sleep. And if I can't sleep, I oftentimes will sit up and meditate and that calms my mind and I'm able to fall back asleep.

You know, connection, meaningful connection with friends that I love. And then talking about the things that I'm going through with either them or, you know, a therapist, I have a great therapist that I talked to. I don't talk with her religiously every week. But if I'm going through stress, I do. So I know that she's there. And I can call on her whenever, whenever I need, you know, purpose is in the toolkit. And that's where the bucket list comes in. Just making sure I'm doing things that I love. Like I'm not getting so overworked that I don't have time to do things like take trips with friends or, you know, I'm missing birthdays or these, these moments that

are really important to me, or don't have time to, you know, go out and go down to the beach and jump in the ocean. I think that these are all different for everyone, but I do have the toolkit as it's on my Instagram link. There's like the one link is the download to the toolkit. So you can check it out. Like, I think it's just a good thing to think about. Like, I need to know the things that work for me to allow me to get through stress. Because the truth is like, you know,

look, we're in a mental health crisis. There's just, this is, I think, the biggest challenge that we're facing right now. The reality is, is that because of the pandemic, more people are struggling and we're struggling with depression, anxiety, and all sorts of different things. And that's okay. What's not okay is to not talk about it because if you're going through it and 25 to 50% of your listeners are going to be struggling. And that's just the reality of where we are right now in this, in this country and in this environment. And I think that the one thing that if you get anything from this podcast is just to know that the person sitting next to you at work is probably struggling with something you can't see.

And a lot of people are. And the biggest piece is talk about it. Talk about it with someone that cares about you. Talk about it ideally with a therapist if you're able to talk with a therapist. Because it doesn't last forever. And you will come out the other side having learned something about yourself. And I know that's like, is the last thing you want to hear when you're struggling, but this makes you who you are and who you truly are in any moment is exactly who

you need to be. And that means two things, being who you truly are and going after the things that you love, right? That's your bucket list, but it's also being who you truly are and not hiding those things that you're struggling with. Because what I found is those things that I thought were my weaknesses, they actually turned out to be my strengths when I stopped trying to hide them all the time. And I used to never talk about my depression because I thought it was a weakness. And then I started just learning about the rate of suicide. You know, someone takes their own life every 15 minutes in the U S so over 150 suicides a day in the U S alone. And I thought, man, if I can veer somewhere from that path, I could probably like get over the

fear of talking about my struggles. And so, and that's when I started talking about it and it was really hard, but like, I saw that it was normalizing the conversation. And so, so that's why I talk about it, right? Like is if I can give, make someone feel a little more comfortable to talk about what they're going through just by sharing my story, then that's my goal. And maybe inspire them to take action as well, which is obviously just a theme of a lot of what you've been talking about. And that it sounds like that is why you created your newest book, because

you've mentioned this, that it can be hard to go from even something you agree with. So you read something, you hear something and you say, yes, that makes a lot of sense. And now it's time to implement that. And in some cases, now you as the individual have to figure out how to implement it, but maybe even implementation steps are given. So you don't even have to think about how to do it. You have to do it, but it can be hard to change what we're doing,

which is comfortable and do anything else. And so I appreciate what we're doing, which is comfortable and do anything else. And, and so I appreciate what you're doing with the journal in particular, because I guess maybe it's also just my personality. I've always been a kind of a pragmatic person. I like to solve problems. I like to get into action. I like to figure out ways to do things better. And so it sounds like that's at least part of a part of you as well. Yeah, no, I think I appreciate it. And I think that what I've always found is like the first step is always the hardest. And so what's the easiest step? Write it down, right? You're 40% more likely to achieve your goal if you write it down, because it becomes real. It's not a

thought, it's tangible. But so it's a literal reminder that your goal exists but it also forces you to slow down and think about what's important to you like you said thinking about as like your goals as experiments i like to think that about them as projects like just like a work project what do you do you're tasked with a project like You're like, okay, let's break it down. What's the first step? Well, I think the first step is writing it down. Then you start to look at like, what are three or four 48-hour action items I can do?

What can I do in the next 48 hours? The simplest things. Call a friend, ask them for advice, do some research online, book the ticket. And then how do you create those accountability structures? So you create your momentum through small steps of action and then you build a reward, an accountability buddy. You set a deadline, you start to figure out why this is important to you. And so all those small steps start to add up. You know, I think we sort of like feel

like anyone we see who is successful, we almost have this gut instinct to be like, oh my God, they're smarter than me. Like they're better than me. When in reality, like they started where we are right now. They just brick by brick started to build what they're doing. And before they knew it, like over time, they were there, like they didn't know how to do it. They just figured it out as they went. And so that's why too, it's so empowering when you surround yourself with people

that inspire you. When they achieve something great, you don't think, oh wow, they're better than me. They're smarter than me. You think, oh, wow, I wonder what I can do. Because you know them. They're a friend. Like, you know, they're not superheroes. So then you, by osmosis, start to feel that you can achieve great things when you surround yourself with people that are achieving great things.

And that's so powerful, so powerful. So it's like intentionally being around people that give you energy, that inspire you, you know, the high tide, you know, lifts all the boats. Totally agree. And, and just that point of finding also activities to give you energy. That's something that I've learned over the years with work in particular, because, um, I don't know if you know, I have a sports nutrition business. So it was a whole separate thing. And I don't know how many people we have now, maybe 60 or 70. And so through the course of building that business, I learned that I don't

particularly enjoy a lot of what goes into building a business. I can do it to some degree of competence, but I don't really like a lot of it. A lot of the activity of operating a business in particular takes energy from me. Now I had to do it to do it and that's fine. It sucks. Yeah. But, but I don't, I don't, I don't want to do chores for the rest of my life. That's not a very, like, I can only mop the floor so many times until I'm like, can I just like not mop a floor today? And so, uh, so I've had to learn that, uh, that you don't have to live that way. And you can find people who love doing the stuff that you hate doing.

And then you, you can delegate that work to them and they're going to do it better than you're going to do it actually. So you can focus on stuff you really like to do. That's not, that's not a self-indulgent. That's not to your point. That's not like being weak. It's actually just being smart. Yeah, exactly. Also, I I'm curious, cause you had mentioned, um, I don't know, we don't have a ton of time left, but you had mentioned that, you know, the traveling to Europe wasn't something that changed your life, but there were some other things that kind of, you know, were super meaningful or change your life? I'm just curious what those are. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I guess what immediately pops to mind is an obvious one of writing that

first book and publishing it because it's something that I enjoyed. And I was a good student in school and always enjoyed reading. And so I was like, maybe I'll like writing. And then I started doing it and really liked it. But didn't know, can I make a living with this? Can I do anything with this? Or am I just wasting my time, basically? And so so that was a very cool experience because it showed me that there was a possibility to do more of this and also to make a difference in people's lives. I can remember early on getting emails because I put an email address in the book, first edition. I still have it there and I still answer emails. But and I just basically said at the end of the book, like, hey, if you have any questions or any feedback, good or bad, I'd love to hear from you. Just send me an email. I remember vividly the first emails that came in. It was cool that somebody cared, like somebody actually read the book and cared enough to reach out and had questions.

And then so, you know, it's funny. That was like 10 years ago. There are still I couldn't tell you how many, but it's more than one. It's probably more than five. It's in the range of probably 10 to 20 people who still are in touch. They still reach out now and then 10, 10 years later, um, just to say, Hey, this is, this is how I'm doing now in my fitness or whatever. And so I haven't met these people in person. Uh, actually would like to start doing live events, but that's a pretty unique connection. And so to see firsthand that I can help somebody because fitness, as you know, it might start with just what you see in the mirror. But it inevitably touches every area of your life and everything just gets better as you go from very out of shape and unhealthy to in shape, relatively in shape. You don't have to be

super fit, obviously, but relatively in shape and healthy. And so it still provides just an emotional satisfaction and emotional payoff. There aren't many other things in my work that provide that. I personally find writing satisfying, but to hear from people and see that I made an actual difference means a lot more to me. Like if we're talking about just raw emotion, how do I feel when I experienced that? That means more to me than last week, Legion, my sports nutrition company did highest ever sales for a non-sale week. Um, you know, we're going to grow 40 to 50% this year, revenue, blah, blah, blah. Like that's cool. And it's good, but it doesn't do nearly as much for me, the making money, um, as, as just that personal, Hey, just an email, read your book,

Mike really liked it. Here's where I was at before I read it. Here's where I'm now at after. Thanks for, thanks for writing the book. Like it's such a good reminder of the importance to, of giving without expecting really anything in return. A lot of times we give for our own agenda, not like it's a bad thing. It's like, you know, part of just sort of, you know, give and receive. You sort of think like it's part of a strategy at some level, whether it's like, like it's overtly doing that or subconsciously. You're like, oh, like I'll help this person out and maybe they'll help me later. But the real power that comes from just giving selflessly, because that allows you to receive the benefits full force.

You then get this unexpected hit of, wow, how cool is this? You know, this person like changed their life and that fuels you. And I actually think that the way that you did that, really you were being unabashedly true to yourself. And that's why creativity is actually a category of life. Because when you're creative, you're letting out this true expression of yourself. Whether you're playing an instrument, you're doing some sort of art,

you're writing, you get into this flow state. Sports can do that as well, where you're out of your head, you're just, and that flow state is your true self, right? You're just letting out this real raw expression of who you really are. You're not thinking about right? You're just letting out this real raw expression of who you really are. You're not thinking about it. You're just letting it out. And that's almost therapeutic when you do that. You let that out.

And so you were able to express, you know, these things that you wanted to express through writing and you're true to yourself and that's where you're most powerful. You know, like that's where you created this incredible impact. If more people were true to yourself, and that's where you're most powerful. You know, like that's where you created this incredible impact. If more people were true to themselves, they would actually create more impact. And believed in themselves. And I understand.

I mean, I've seen it firsthand. I can think of kids. I have two kids, and so I've seen kids over the years, I have two kids, and so I've seen kids over the years and, you know, where kids have parents who don't really encourage them to do much of anything, don't show them much support, don't show that they believe that the kid can do maybe anything other than just like sit on their tablet all day and fiddle around on like TikTok and whatever, right? I understand that it can be tough. There are a lot of people who could do great, unique, interesting things, but don't believe that they can or don't believe in it enough to want to even try. Yeah. And I think that that's a, I'm not a parent. So, you know, I am absolutely unqualified to speak to this um but being a kid of a parents that lived a life that was very untraditional in the sense that like my dad was a theatrical clown my mom he played music basically my mom you know a business coach for women and they lived this

life that was true to themselves traveled a lot inspired me to to kind of take those those steps as well. And I can see, you know, my friends raising kids and and just understanding how important it is to encourage your kids to be whoever they are, do the things that they want to do. Don't force them into one sport, for example, because you always wanted to play it. Like that's such a thing that you wanted to excel at. Yeah, totally. And you see like the drill master dads out there, you know, every day with their kid and the kids just dragging through the little practices that he has to do every day. And it makes me think of, and it's something I've thought about personally now and then that you've mentioned a couple of these kind of like obvious kind of to use a tennis term, unforced errors. Try, let's try in the various elements of, of our lives to not make the easiest,

maybe you can even say dumbest or at least most obvious mistakes, like in finances. Let's not live beyond our means. Let's save money. Let's invest money. You know, you can read like one book and it'll make the case on why you should do this. With kids, it's like this is one of the really kind of obvious, unforced errors that parents make, which is to try to shove the kid into a mold that they've already kind of created for the kid. And that's often driven by their own interests. It could be the sports example or the career example, which is like, they want to be able to tell their friends at the party that their kid is going to medical school or something like that, you know?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think it's, you know, it's consistent with the whole conversation, you know? It's like, whether it's you, it's your kids, or, you know, the people you care about, to be able to encourage them to do the thing, you know? Do the thing, take the jump, you know? It's, it'll be worth it. You're gonna regret not doing it at the end of your life if you don't.

And that's why, like, you just, if you're confused, just ask yourself on your deathbed, ask your 90-year-old self, will I regret not doing it at the end of your life if you don't. And that's why, like, if you're confused, just ask yourself on your deathbed, ask your 90-year-old self, will I regret not doing this? The answer is yes. Probably got to take a crack at it. And a final comment is something also that, you know, this is, I've used this kind of perspective, and that is to get realistic about what the worst case scenario is. Because in the absence of that, I think we tend to catastrophize. But if we get very specific about, OK, if this goes really wrong, what does that mean? And often it doesn't mean all that much death and disaster. Often it's something that you really could just shrug off

and say, oh, well, I guess I wasted some time and maybe wasted some money, but life goes on. It's, I mean, super important. But worst case scenario, so what are the real risks versus the imagined risks? And so like put ego aside. So it's not what other people think, right? It's not this like, but are you going to be at real financial risk?

Are you not going to be able to provide for your family? Real risk, real risk. Are you going to do irreparable damage to your reputation? Real risk. But you start to realize that that list is actually smaller than you think. So you can actually list out what are the actual real risks. If it's not as risky as you think, then you're good to go. Totally agree.

Yeah, and working probability into that helps too. How likely, all right, so here's the worst case outcome. It's not that bad actually. And how likely is it to even occur? Oh, I don't know. Not very likely. What does that mean? 10 to 20% chance?

Okay, how does that change the calculus? Yes, yeah, exactly. But anyways, I've kept you longer than I said I would. So I appreciate you sticking with me. And I really appreciate the discussion. This was a lot of fun. And why don't we wrap up with, again, let's tell people about the book in case they've missed it along the way, and also where they can find you and the rest of your work, you know, social media and so forth. So the book in the bucket list journal is on writeyourlist.com or you can go to my Instagram at Ben Nemton and it'll be right there under the one link.

You know, honestly, like the best place is probably Instagram. I think that's where I like the best place is probably Instagram. I think that's where I enjoy posting the most. I'm not very terribly good at social media, but, uh, I do post a lot, I think, or at least the most on, on Instagram. So it'd be great to, to actually like see your list. I encourage you to, to write your list and to take a photo of it and share it. Like that'll build accountability. You can send it to me. I'd love to see your list, but you know, share it with your, your community, share it with your followers, share it with your family, write your bucket list as a family. You know, that a lot of people use the bucket list journal to write their list with their kids, you know, or a list with your partner is super powerful because what it does is it starts this conversation around like, Hey, what's

important to us? What do we want? You know? And, and what do we want to move towards? So let's define what those are and let's like, make sure we, we hit those, those together. So, you know, share your list. I'd love to see it. Shoot me a note or, um, or a message on Instagram. And, uh, yeah, if you want to check out the journal, it's, it's write your list.com. Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this, Ben. Thank you, man. It's been really fun to chat and, uh, yeah, I'll, to check out the journal, it's writeyourlist.com. Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this, Ben. Thank you, man. It's been really fun to chat. And yeah, I'll hit you up next time I'm in Florida.

Yeah, sounds good. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did, subscribe to the show because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email,

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