Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Ben Pakulski on Meditation, Consciousness, Focus, Spirituality, and More

Episode Date: April 24, 2019

Meditation has become wildly popular in the past decade or so. So popular, in fact, that’s it’s easy to write it off as another “woo woo” fad, like water fasting, cupping therapy, or lectin-free diets. It’s not, though. While the health benefits of meditation are often overblown, it’s hard to argue with the subjective benefits it provides. I don’t have much personal experience with meditation, so I wanted to pick the brain of someone who does: Ben Pakulski. Ben has been through intense highs and extreme lows in his life as a professional bodybuilder, and he’s used meditation to help him grow from these experiences for over a decade. So . . . if you’re curious if carving out some time every day to meditate can actually improve your ability to cope with and benefit from life’s many stressors, this episode is for you. 5:50 - Why are you getting into meditation and what does it do for you? 13:21 - How did it look before and after you had overhauled your ability to focus? 19:57 - Do you find it hard to switch hats from a business man to a family man every day? 21:44 - Have you written down the traits of each of your avatars? 48:00 - What does spirituality mean to you? 52:36 - What’s an example of an altered state of consciousness? 54:08 - What do you think experiencing an altered state of consciousness means? 1:23:17 Where can people find you and your work? Mentioned on The Show: Bigger Leaner Stronger: http://geni.us/BLSBook Reincarnation Research from UVA: https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/who-we-are/dops-media/video-reincarnation-research/ The Anglo-American Establishment by Carroll Quigley: https://www.amazon.com/Anglo-American-Establishment-Carroll-Quigley/dp/0945001010/?tag=mflweb-20 Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time by Carroll Quigley: https://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Hope-History-World-Time/dp/094500110X/?tag=mflweb-20 The Muscle Intelligence Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/muscle-intelligence/id1448211060 Ben’s Website: https://www.mi40nation.com/ Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

you Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, but I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine,, my fitness book for men, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. Now, this book has sold over 350,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of guys build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 3,100 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths that are keeping you from achieving the lean, muscular, strong, and healthy body that you truly desire, and if you want to learn the simple science of building the ultimate male body, then you want to read Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, which you can find on all major online retailers like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo,

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Stronger for free. Alrighty, that is enough shameless plugging for now at least. Let's get to the show. Big Ben, thanks for coming back on the show, man. Mike, I'm so grateful that you had me on, man. You're a gentleman that I look up to from afar, and I'm grateful to always have a chance to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. So, I had a few little ideas that I wanted to pick your brain about, and that's why I wanted to ask you to come back on the show. So I'm just going to jump right into the first one. So I thought that you had recently got into meditation. We were just talking right before we started recording. It's something you've been into for some period of time now, but you've gotten more into it

recently. Tell me about that. I'm curious what it does for you and then why are you getting into it recently. Yeah. Tell me about that. I'm curious what it does for you and then why are you getting into it more? And you've mentioned getting more into a spiritual or just looking more into spiritual things as opposed to just getting bigger muscles. Sure, man. So I started meditating in 2007. So I was aspiring to be a professional bodybuilder. I wasn't professional at the time. And I had a guy who came into my life kind of by accident. He was actually a therapist, a physical therapist. And, you know, I'm laying there on his table. He's doing some manual work on me.

And, you know, I'm telling him about my life and telling him about the problems I'm having and the stresses I'm having and how people are, you know, rubbing me the wrong way. You know, there's certain people in everyone's life who rub you the wrong way. And he goes, well, why do you let them do that to you? And I was like, what do you mean? They're not doing anything. You know, it's, it's them, you know, like getting a little snappy and defensive. And he goes, well, man, you know, maybe that's saying more about you than you realize. Maybe the fact that you let other people influence you is something you should think about. And I was like, well, you know, tell me more about that, you know, asking questions. And he's basically like, well, ultimately someone outside of you shouldn't be able to influence

who you are and how you act and the person that you are ultimately the person you bring to the world. So he mentioned this thing about meditation and, you know, controlling your emotions and controlling your reactivity to stuff and becoming more responsive and rather than reactive. And that was really my first kind of exposure to that thought process. You know, I just, up to that point in my life, I was 25, 26. I just kind of existed. You know, I hadn't been aware of the reality that there was an opportunity to respond rather than react. And he's like, well, why don't you try this? You know, like try to meditate. And so he gave me a book by Wayne Dyer and sat down, read the book. I wasn't that much of a student at that time. I'd been through university and such, but my passion was bodybuilding.

So I thought all I had to do was lift weights and eat protein. So I read this book and ultimately that changed my life and made me realize that no one or no thing outside of you should influence who you are and what you bring to a situation. And that was just my weakness as a human. And as I started to dive more into this meditation thing, I realized that I had the ability to not only control my thoughts, but control my actions, control my words. And to me, that's such a powerful place to come from, right? Like I am in control of everything that comes out of my mouth.

I'm in control of everything that goes through my mind and the way that i act and we react or respond um so you know meditation for me started back then um meditation in kind of spurts throughout my bodybuilding career because you can imagine being a big bodybuilder sitting in a meditative pose wasn't a comfortable thing um and i didn't realize that that was part of it. You know, like that was part of the benefit of meditation. I think people miss that. Like most people sit down into, you know, cross-legged pose on the floor, even just sitting on a chair. And they're like, oh, I can't, I can't do this for a long time. I can't, it's uncomfortable. It hurts my back, hurts my hips, whatever. That's part of the meditation. You know, that's the ability to focus through that, to calm down your mind, calm down your nervous system through those

anxious, uncomfortable situations, that's the meditation. And when I started to realize that, like, if you can't, you must, that just became this road for me that was so appealing. I'm like, God, if I can't do something, I have to. So now I literally look for situations like that where I'm like, why am I uncomfortable like this? Good, I'm going to stay here. Like, I want to learn how to breathe through this. I want to know how to focus my mind on something other than, you know, the massive amount of discomfort that I'm in right now. And when I finally started to see how. What types of situations, sorry, it's just Jack. Even sitting in a meditative pose, right? Like, can you sit cross-legged on the floor for 30 to 60 minutes? Most people are going to start getting itchy. They're going to get uncomfortable. They're

going to scratch your nose, move your leg. Hips are going to start getting itchy, they're going to get uncomfortable, they're going to scratch your nose, move your leg, hips are going to start getting tight, legs are going to fall asleep. Like realizing that all of those things are just manifestations of your mind and your nervous system. I mean, I'd say probably even an easier place to start that still would be difficult for many people, maybe even for me, would be just sitting in a chair comfortably for 30 to 60 minutes. With a straight spine a straight spot right yeah yeah like you can't keep it arrow straight and most people can't you're not watching tv you can't you just have to you just have to sit there and just be there comfortably for 30 to 60 minutes right imagine now imagine the value and the power that brings to any situation like mike you sit down and write books you sit down and read books you sit down and

have a conversation with someone who's an employee, even your spouse, like the ability to be there and be present and be focused and not distracted and not picking your nose and not scratching the itch and not fidgeting, but actually being able to be there and be present in the conversation and the situation is maybe the most powerful gift or the most powerful power that anyone could bring to a situation, man. Like the reason you're a successful business guy, Mike, is because you have focus. And the ability to train that focus is a superpower. So as soon as I kind of discovered that, which to be honest,

in its entirety wasn't until after professional bodybuilding, and I'll tell you a little bit of that story quickly, but my life has changed, man. My ability to deliver high quality, focused content, focused results, focused output, like it's tremendously different. I'm a different human being, you know, I'm different in relationships, I'm different in business and different everything. So, you know, just to kind of extend the conversation, why this or how the spiritual journey kind of transcended. transcended. So professional bodybuilder for 10 years, you know, competed in the highest stages in the world. You know, the Arnold, the Olympia, all that fun stuff. And I loved it, man. I loved when I was doing it. And then when it was time for me to leave, and there's many reasons why I left, my health is great. The primary catalyst for me leaving was this realization that I got to the pinnacle. I got to what I thought would have made me fulfilled and happy as a human. You know, I got to the Olympia multiple times. I

got to the Arnold multiple times and I was not any different than the insecure boy that started, you know, I was now a man. And ultimately the level of insecurity that I had was still there. And it didn't make me, it didn't make me happy. You know, it didn't make me happy to be on stage at Olympia. It didn't make me feel fulfilled. I didn't love it anymore. So I was like, okay, well, I made it to this mountain that I thought, I mean, to the top of this mountain that I thought was going to be everything I always wanted in life, you know? And I got there and I realized like, oh, well, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. So, well, what is? Like what, what, you know, where's the journey? And then you realize that, and I think most people have

this realization at some point in their life is, you know, where's the journey? And then you realize that, and I think most people have this realization at some point in their life is, you know, you're trying to accumulate external things, whether it be money or, or, or material goods, or in my case, muscle. And you finally reached that goal that you set for yourself. You know, I want to make 50 million bucks or I want to put on a hundred pounds of muscle or whatever. You get there and you go, oh, well, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. I'm, I'm not happy, not happy. And the idea of you're

not fulfilled. So where does the attention turn? It almost always inevitably turns within, right? Everyone starts the spiritual journey. You notice that with every successful person in the world is they've accomplished all their external things, their material goods, and then the journey turns inside. And that's really what's happened for me. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you'd mentioned the focus point in particular. I just wanted to really highlight that because I agree. Cal Newport wrote a book called Deep Work that I really liked that I recommend. Yeah. So I recommend anybody who's listening who hasn't read that book to read it. And I'm just curious for you. So how did that look before you had overhauled your ability to focus and after? And I would think that bodybuilding would have trained that to some degree, right?

Sure. I mean, because isn't that kind of the thing? You're in the moment. You're, you know, working on whatever you're working on. I'm glad that you acknowledge that and you notice that. But so my training so most so my my training now so my business now is muscle intelligence and i teach people intelligent muscle strategies and health optimization strategies and the way i teach muscle building

is a very mindful process you have to be present you have to be focused you it's an internal focus like i'm focused on what's happening inside my body and connecting with my body most people train completely disconnected right they turn the music as high as they can. They become absolutely mindless about it. So they're going through the motions mindlessly. So as much as exercise, like many things in life, can be a meditative focused opportunity, most people use it to disconnect rather than connect. And I think for me now, training is meditative, man.

Like 99% of the time, my eyes are closed. I don't have music in my ear. I'm ultimately meditating, connecting with my ability to feel my body, connect with my body. But again, like I said, most people don't do that. Most people do the exact opposite. And I really suggest that most people at least try, try to connect with yourself, try to use it to become a better version of yourself every single day, rather than just mindlessly blanking out, turning off,

you know, turning on whatever stimulus you can to turn off your brain and numbing out. Yeah. I mean, I, that's something that I keep in mind in my training. I mean, sometimes I find that if I, if I didn't sleep enough or sleep well, which is a thing these days, mostly because I have a one and three quarter year old who is not accepting, uh, sleeping by herself. Um, but I'll find that, uh, sometimes it's harder to really focus on what I'm doing. And I'll find myself sometimes going through the motion. But I'd say on the whole, that's something that I've been mindful of is that you could say that mind muscle connection, which actually there's a bit of, I mean, I'm sure you know this, there's a bit of research that shows you might get a little,

also a little performance boost out of really focusing on the muscles, at least on the smaller muscles, isolation exercises. It's a bit harder on a, on a squat, at least on the smaller muscles, isolation exercises. It's a bit harder on a squat, for example, because there's so much, or a deadlift because there's so much that's involved. But these days, I also don't train with music. And I really try to just focus on at least what the primary movers are and maintaining proper form. And so- But most people don't even know what that is, Mike. Like when you think about proper movers, most people don't even know how they're training and can they feel a muscle? What are they, what are the, what is the actual action of this muscle? Am I feeling that? Like most people are just, they just don't know. So that's what my business is,

right? It's like, Hey, at very least, if you're trying to build a muscle, you need to know what the function of this muscle is or what the action of this muscle is. And you should be thinking about that. And is this muscle actually doing the thing, doing the work? That's all you need to focus on. Like you need to, you need to look at your setup. You need to look at curating stability. And then you're looking at, is this muscle doing the work 100% of the time? And that's your focus. It's like, am I challenging a muscle? The objective is not lifting weight, right? The objective is challenging a muscle if your objective is building muscle. So obviously if you're trying to lift weight to be a power lifter, a different thing.

But if you're trying to build muscle, build a physique, the only objective is challenging muscle. So the only thing you should be thinking about is this muscle and the reality that this muscle has two ends, right? You have an origin insertion. That doesn't matter, but it has two ends. One end has to stay completely stable, meaning not moving at all. And the other end is moving.

And one end is ultimately bringing the insertion closer to the origin. That's it. If you're thinking about something other than that, you're missing it. Yeah. And I'd say the easiest place to start for anybody listening with that is just keeping your mind on what you're doing. Just do what you're doing when you're doing it. And that's a good place to at least begin where you're not, if even if you're just doing curls or something, it's not a, a, a difficult exercise per se. Um, keep your attention on, I mean,

for me, for example, if I'm doing curls, I have, again, I have my attention on what are the prime movers here. So I have my biceps. Usually I have my intention a little bit on my grip, So I have my biceps. Usually I have my intention a little bit on my grip, keeping my grip strong and then just, um, and then just form and not work. Not, uh, if I had an argument with my wife the night before, if we're, if we're, if we're disputing over something, I'm not thinking about that or anything else that, that might be popping in my mind, really just try to, when I'm in the gym, I'm in the gym. And I guess that's also something that has served me well in my work because I tend to

be that way with my work as well. No matter what's happening in my life, good or bad, when I'm working, I'm working and I'm rarely allowing my attention to stray off to anything else. And when I'm done working, then I can go put my attention on these other things. Yeah. You're a hundred percent present, man. You're anchored, right? And that's something I teach as well, man. It's like, you know, take three to five minutes before you train, take three to five minutes before you go into work, take three to five minutes before you go

into your home and become the person you need to become to optimize that scenario, right? Is you're anchoring yourself to that person. So I can't be the same person I am in the gym as I am when I go home to my beautiful five-year-old daughter, right? So how do I anchor that? Well, I think everyone needs to take that three to five minutes and breathe, man, and create that person you are in your mind. And that's a meditation session. That's literally all meditation is, right? Is either I'm going to create my mind first or the world is going to create it for me. And you never want to go into a situation, you know, like I can't go into my home and have dinner with my amazing family being the same person I am in the gym or in my business. It's a disconnect. So I have to make sure that I'm anchoring that scenario. And you're obviously doing that naturally, Mike. And, you know,

realizing that to become the best athlete in the world or one of the best bodybuilders in the world, I had to become a very particular personality, a very particular character to do that. So, you know, there should be a massive disconnect if I went home and I was still that kind of ruthless, angry, driven person in front of my family. You know, to me, it just wouldn't make sense. So that's a big thing for people to start to realize is start creating avatars, man. Start creating the avatar you need to be at work. You're a leader. You're, you're a charismatic, uh, business owner.

You're whatever, man. You're, you're someone who dominates business and life. You better not damn well be that person when you go home and spend some romantic time with your wife. Do you find it's hard to, uh, switch between those different hats, so to speak? Cause I have absolutely, it's hard to turn some of that stuff off. It's hard to start. It's hard to start like Like anything, right? The first time you do it, you're like, God, this is impossible. But after a while, it's the only way that I know how to be

now. It's like, I literally anchored myself as I stick my key into the door in my house. I'm changing. I'm wearing a different hat. The movie that comes to mind is like Over the Top with Sylvester Stallone, right? He turns the hat around backwards and you guys are all fucked you know it's like what well that's the same thing happens in the gym right i come in the gym and what's happening well i intentionally always change my clothes before i go and train you know i'll never wear my gym clothes to the gym i'll always come in the gym and i'll get changed i'm anchoring that state and it could be anything as simple as like when i when i grab the door handle of the gym like you know i'm anchoring that or maybe i'm sitting in my car before i go into the

gym like you have to anchor that maybe it's a song maybe it's a smell maybe it's a taste like you can anchor your emotions to these different people these different avatars and and ultimately create that person that you need to dominate that situation or be the best you possibly can in that situation and i think that's i mean again complete sidetrack from the conversation we want to have, but I think it's a very interesting thing for people to think about. Like, you know, you shouldn't be the same person when you're reading a book and you should be in student mode than when you're doing a set of squats. We have to acknowledge that those are different people. Ultimately, those are different versions of your personality. So how do you anchor those

things? Well, it's literally, it could be as simple as three to five breaths and a little bit of conscious intention to say, Hey, this is where my mind needs to be. Now I need to be in the point where I'm absorbing this information, this book, or I need to be in the point where I'm giving a hundred percent effort on my nervous system when I'm squatting. And I hope everyone can acknowledge those are different. And if you really want to succeed at life, it's important to start creating avatars. Have you done that consciously? Have you like written down, these are my different, how do those look? I only have three, man. I only have three. It's business, home, and training. That's it. So I try to keep it simple because obviously I could create a hundred of them if I wanted to, but really most of my life is relative, I mean, relatively the

same person, right? Like now in business, I can be kind of the same person that I am at home because with my team, I can be the same person with my family. Similar. Really? I found that I've fallen into the bad habit in the past. I'm better with it now. I'd say I'm much better with it now. Not that I don't think I was

particularly bad, but I would tend to still have my boss hat, uh, on at home. You know what I mean? In certain situations where I would expect my wife to get certain things done in the way that I would expect people to work. You know what I mean? Like, why isn't this done? Why isn't that cleaned up? What's going on with this? Where at the office, those types, even those types of communication are totally acceptable, especially with the people that I work with. They're not very sensitive people, and they understand that.

Also, my personality, I tend to be, I think in general, I wouldn't say harsh. Stoic. Yeah, maybe. That makes me sound better than it is. Yeah, maybe, maybe. Yeah. I mean, that, that makes me sound better than it is, but like I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a blunt person in general. And, um, and I appreciate people being the same way with me. So sometimes I'll communicate something, uh, with the, it is not, it's completely not sugarcoated and it, maybe it sounds a bit more harsh than even I mean it to be. Um, but anyways, my point is, so that's, that's one way to operate at, at, at work and, uh, and then, but that does not work at home. And so I've had to consciously,

um, just, just change that and use maybe a different approach, a softer approach with my wife than I would with my employees. Um, have you, I'm sure. How has that been for you? I learned that the hard way, man. Um, but mine tends to go the other way where I tend to come in and be too soft on my employees, but I found as long as I give them a very clear marching orders and they're meeting expectations, then everybody wins. Right. Um, and my only limitation happens if I don't give them very clear, uh, objectives and, and manage expectations. So as long as I'm doing that well, everybody wins, man. I can be kind, I can be nice, and they're getting their job done. And if they're not,

then well, they're not going to be on the team for long. It's really that cut and dry. But I've learned to not take my work home as much, certainly. Again, it still happens, man. We all have stresses sometimes, but I'll tell you, I'm very good now at not bringing that shit home. And ultimately, you can't be the same person, man. If I go into a business meeting where I'm very good now. I'm not bringing that shit home. And ultimately you can't be the same person, man. Like if I go into a business meeting where I'm talking about investment or I'm talking about bringing on, you know, shareholders or I can't be the same person. Like that would be a big problem if I wanted to start talking to my shareholders as I was with my five-year-old, you know? So, I think if you want to be successful in anything, you must practice these things. And I'm at the point now, like I say, where it's almost

as simple as two or three breaths. So I'll give an example, Mike, is like, if I tell you to quickly think of a situation where you were joyful or you had a sense of achievement, at first, it's kind of hard to do that. You're like, oh, give me a second. Let me think about that. But if you do it every day, then you have the same list of like two or three scenarios where you're like, God, that was so awesome. And like, if I just said, you know, think of your daughter's smile, your child's smile, whatever it is, right? Like, okay, that's joyful. That's all it takes. It's like, Hey, now I just bring that feeling back into my nervous system. And now I feel that. And I can walk into any scenario and have this overwhelming sense of gratitude and joy as I walked through the door. But I just created that in my mind rather than

bringing the bullshit with me that I had at work from, you know, some, something happening business-wise or something not going my way. I just literally anchored that situation in, you know, three to five breaths. It's literally an instant. So, um, it's just practice, man. Like, and at the same time, if I want to bring back that ruthless guy who fucking destroyed people in the gym for 20 years, I can, I can bring that back. You know, I can go there in a second cause I did it so many times. Like I know what that feels like to go back there. And that's just a few breaths and a few thoughts away and like, bang, it's there. And I think that's a powerful superpower. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. You'd mentioned earlier that, um, so in bodybuilding you, you had kind of achieved your goal and it didn't fulfill you maybe in the

way that you thought it was going to going into it. What does that, what does that mean for you now? Because, I mean, I've had that experience, uh, multiple times in my, I guess in multiple aspects of my life, but just, just taking my work, I have fully accepted that there's no, uh, fully accepted that there's no, uh, it's there's, there's satisfaction that comes with accomplishing things, but in terms of happiness, um, I don't think there's, I don't, I don't think that I am going to be, uh, happy. I don't think it's, I don't think it's a good idea to think in the way of like, oh, I'll be happy when blah, especially if it is related to some external thing, whether it's money or recognition or any of the other many, many ways you can measure, quote unquote. What keeps you driven then, Mike? For me, I would say there are a few things. I have like a three to five year plan that I'm working on that is very, like my number one focus right now is my career and, and my work. And there are different

elements of it. There's, um, there are financial elements. There are just kind of personal satisfaction. Oh, it would be cool to, you know, like for example, I recently rewrote, uh, from, from scratch, uh, my, I think I actually, I think I sent, I think, I think it's in the men's book to you, right? My books for men and women. I didn't see it. I didn't get it if you did, but hopefully I would like to, I would like to send you one. Really? I think we must've gone back and forth. Maybe one of the, maybe the email chain got dropped or something, but I'll make a note of that. There we go. And so there are, and I'm really proud of, of where these books are at now. A lot of, this is the third edition and there have been multiple, multiple iterations,

not just three, because there's like, there was the first edition and there was kind of like 1.1 and then 1.2. And so I'm very proud of these books. And so there are some other, just kind of, I don't know,

personal milestones that would be cool, things that I'd be proud of where I go, that's neat. I just like that. And then there's the personal element of it's nice to see what my work is doing in people's lives. And I get to see that directly via emails with people and social media messages with people. And I also, I bring once a month, I bring someone on my podcast who either has like read, read one of my books and applied it and gotten great results or gone through my

coaching service and gotten great results. So it's cool just to connect with people. And I found that matters now like that. Let's just say that is more emotionally satisfying. Just getting an email from someone that is saying, hey, I just want to let you know I read your book a year ago and it changed my life and here's how. And even if it's just a few paragraphs, keep doing what you're doing, thank you, kind of thing, is more emotionally satisfying than any amount of money in my bank account, honestly. No question. So I just got back from a month in Australia and, you know, I planned kind of this synergy of going over there to do some seminars and bring my family over. So we got a vacation out of it. And, you know, we put up this group of seminars, three seminars in three

weeks and, you know, sold them out relatively quickly, which was, you know, gratifying in itself to realize that we have such a massive following over in Australia. And then being there, like walking into these remote, ridiculously remote places and having, you know, people come up and go, man, you know, you changed my life. Um, in, in the most, like in, in the gym, yes. Like, you know, you get 20 or 30 people in almost every gym we went to, but it's like walking into, you know, I was three hours North of the most remote city in Australia. And some dude walked up to me when I was walking down a trail and I'm like, wow. Like, and he's like, oh man, I've been doing your stuff since 2011 and everything you do changes in my life. I still follow everything you do. And you're just like, wow, like, fuck,

how would I expect to see somebody here? And like, we were like doing a nature walk with my kids, man. And that stuff is, is incredibly powerful to hear. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And so, yeah, so there's that for me. And then I also just kind of like to win, you know what I mean? Like if I'm doing, if you're just doing something and you're winning, it's, I have, I have a family. So that, that also has been a good shift for me as a person because growing up, I was always someone that did exactly what I wanted to do. And I was, I was kind of a selfish person, uh, for sure. Preaching the choir, man. Yeah. So, so I think it was a, it's good for me to, I have two kids. And, um, so there's an element of duty that comes with it in terms of being a provider, right? So, you know, it's one of those things where I would, there's a part of me that would be

satisfied doing any sort of work whatsoever simply because one, I enjoy working. It's a kind of a flow activity for me. Talk about focus, right? Like you get that. I like that feeling when you're fully focused on something and, um, you are, you kind of lose track of time and you are enjoying doing what you're doing just for the sake of doing it. And for me, work, most types of work is a, is a flow activity. Um, especially that deeper work where you really can focus. If it's blasting through a couple hundred emails, even that though, actually, now that I think about it, you have done it so many times. There's a flow to that. I guess some types of work don't lend themselves too well to that. Maybe some sort of dysfunctional meetings and shit are just kind of annoying, but a lot of work for me is I just enjoy it for what it is. And so having that feeling that I'm serving something greater

than me, I guess is, is probably also something I've realized that for me that matters and it matters more than money. Like I'm more interested in serving a cause than just making money so I can have shiny things. Yeah. Um, what about you? Well, it's funny you bring that up, man. So, um, I've, as I told you, I've recently started taking on a bunch of mentoring clients. So like my fitness business is relatively well known and made a lot of mistakes, as I'm sure you have, and taking on business coaching clients, mentoring clients. And the first thing I make everybody do and something I've done myself is create your 25-year vista. And so like everyone's like, oh, I'm doing a five-year plan, I'm doing a 10-year plan. That's great. And I think those are very, very important. Those are definitely an aspect of it. But when you try to think 25 years ahead, most people are like,

you can't do that. Like, good, do it. So, you know, how long is it going to take you to accumulate? You know, say I need to make, you know, 50 million is my number. I'm going to make 50 million bucks. Okay, great. How long is it going to take you? 10 years, 15 years. Okay, great. What happens after? That's always the question, right? Because I've seen the top of the mountain and I realized that there's always another summit. There's always another mountain after that. Well, what? And so this first mountain that we have in the front of our mind, maybe three to five or 10 or 15 years away, but what happens after that? And I want people to start thinking about that because that ultimately in my eyes is their true vision,

their true purpose. So once you've transcended this big mountain that's in front of you, this external mountain where you're like, hey, man, I want a plane and I want a boat and I want a car and I want a house in this place and this place and I want to have this much money and I want to feel secure. Awesome. You got it. Snap my fingers. It's yours. What's after that? And that, I think, is when you actually start to find people's true passion and purpose is when you get their brain to transcend the need for comfort and security. So once I've accumulated comfort and security, awesome, you got that now,

then what? And it almost seems like the inevitable succession after that is helping people, right? But how? And getting people to get clear on that is that that's where you really start to find your true purpose and your true passion. So for me, you know, my 25 year plan literally includes, so when I started my fitness business in 2011, my vision was to be the catalyst for intelligent muscle building around the world. And, you know, if you ask most people in the fitness industry, who is synonymous with actually intelligent muscle building, it's me, it's our, it's our business. So I think we've done that and we've become the catalyst. And now you realize that there's millions of people out there, maybe hundreds of thousands of people teaching this intelligent approach to fitness. And I certainly

couldn't say that I was the only guy that started it, but when we started, we were probably the only one that anyone had heard about. So that's a cool thing to realize that we were a big part of that. And now it's like, okay, well, how do we actually change the paradigm of the entire fitness industry, man? Because it's still, you still have to admit, and you get this, that probably 80 to 90% of people out there have absolutely no clue what they're doing. And if you gave me five minutes with them, I could change the course of their life forever when it comes to understanding how to empower them with the knowledge and skills set to change their body. So five minutes in the gym, I'll give you the understanding of what you actually have to do to train that body part,

to build that body part. Okay, well, great. That's cool. But I can't be in the gym with everybody at the same time. So how do we create something that's powerful enough to give everyone the internal belief that they have the ability to change their body? And it starts with changing the paradigm of the next generation, man, the 12, 13, 15 year old kids who ultimately go into high school gyms, no idea what they're doing, creating bad habits, creating eating disorders, creating insecurities because they don't love their body. They don't feel like they have the ability to control their body. So they don't take ownership over it. They put all the power outside of themselves, right? They blame their genetics, they blame their environment, they blame their past. So I love the idea of empowering the next generation with the knowledge and skill set to change their body, to believe that they have the ability to do anything, man. So, you know, hey, you want to build muscle? No problem. You want to lose fat? No problem. You want to learn how to love your body? No problem. Here's how you do it. Want to learn how to overcome anxiety and stress? No problem. Here's how you do it. Like that's where we need to be looking at, at least for my belief is like, if we're going to really change the scope of the world, the direction of

the world, you have to start with the young generation, man. Like, you know, the older generation is obviously the catalyst for it. And, you know, we can certainly lead, but I think if I'm going to really do, you know, leave, leave a dent on the the rock it's got to be by shifting the thought process and the paradigm of the teenage generation and their belief that um hey man you can do any of this thing so you know think about the potential effect of that right like less bullying less insecurities less gang potential you know and these are all maybe maybe lofty wild dreams but i really believe that if you give people confidence in their body they're built they feel ownership over who they are like i think we empower them to take ownership for their

life every aspect of life so that's kind of what my um purpose is now and how uh how do you plan on going about doing that well i have a i have a unique distribution mechanism that, uh, I'm not going to share because if I, if I share it, it may go away. Um, but I'll share it with you after the call. Cool. So you, you do have a plan though. I like it. Oh yeah, of course. Awesome. Um, it's just a matter of executing. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Uh, well, yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's a matter of being proactive, right? So, um, there are a lot of people who are having a lot of health problems now that, uh, hopefully the, the younger generations are not, hopefully they're not just going to repeat the exact same mistakes. Hopefully we can learn from the, really the, I'd say that the driving factors of the obesity, uh, crisis, right?

And, but even if you didn't change their diet even if you just went like hey man you know you like if you just exercise a little bit or if you walk that's what i mean yeah yeah yeah i mean it's if it was as simple as they can for the average for the average kid out there for the average teenage kid and i actually i hear from teenagers fairly often who usually the ones i hear from, you know, they've seen the YouTube videos of these random idiots who are on steroids. Don't, they don't, they don't talk about it, of course, but you have some, you know, 19, 20 year old kid who has been on drugs for a few years, um, and has, you know, probably has an eating disorder and sits in the gym two hours a day and looks good and runs around, um, showing off, you know, all the attention he gets from girls and blah,

blah, blah. And so I hear from teenagers who write me and ask, how do they do, how do they, how do they get a six pack or how do they look like this guy? Right. And so my advice is, is always don't like one. I usually, I have some stuff I've written and recorded on steroid use and I'll send that to them and like here first read this or listen to this. So you understand what you're actually looking at and why I don't recommend that you, you go down that, that same road. Um, and, and it also will help with, uh, expectations. So let's, let's change's change the expectations and make them a bit more realistic. And then also, you're 16.

Right now, you should focus on, I mean, you could say exercise, but I always ask, do you enjoy sports? Great. So just do that. Like sports, if you want to get into some weightlifting, I think it's smart. And you want to put in, you know, a simple strength training program or, you know, just a barbell centric program, start building some muscle, start getting strong. And as far as diet goes, don't get into, save the eating disorders for later. Don't get into the never ending calorie deficits and always trying to be as lean as possible, especially at your age for physiological and psychological reasons. Let's just focus on eating a bunch of nutritious foods and eat according to your appetite. And you can follow some simple guidelines.

That's the kind of stuff. I think it's so much harder than that though, right? So most people don't eat because they're hungry. They eat because either they're trying to mask the feeling in their body. So if I have this constant feeling of anxiety in my body and I take in some food that makes that go away, I've had a net positive result in my, in my physiological feeling in my body. So guess what? Well, now I want to always chase that net feeling, that improvement in my body. So most people aren't eating because they're hungry. Their choices are not, are not conscious, right? So you have to start with like, okay, well, what are the triggers? Well, I know that you have anxiety. Well, why do you have anxiety? Well, because who knows? I'm stressed. I don't know. I've never been taught an internal mechanism of dealing with it,

with anxiety and stress. I have a 12-year-old stepson. He comes to me two years ago. He goes, hey, Ben, I have anxiety. I said, okay, buddy, let's talk about that. What does that mean? I have anxiety. Now you're just giving yourself a possessive. I have this. No, you don't, you don't have anxiety. Let's first of all, let's change your words. You get anxiety. You don't have anything. You get it. Okay. Let's do that. I get anxiety. Why do you get anxiety? Well, because I'm a little bit stressed about something. Okay. Well, how do we deal with that? Do we give him a pill? Like as a parent, what do I teach him as a, as a, as a coping mechanism? Do I go, Hey man, you probably need a Xanax or hey man, you probably need, I don't know, fuck, theanine or something. No, it's not that. Like, hey man, how about we sit down and we first discover what the root of

this is, what the trigger is. Second, let's give you a coping mechanism. So do I just throw him a tub of Ben and Jerry's and go, hey man, this will make you feel better? No, I go, let's sit down, let's breathe together, man. I'll set him on my lap and I'll put, you know, put him chest to chest or chest to back or whatever. And I'll be like, hey man, I want you to feel my calmness. I want you to, and this may sounds weird, but like if it's a child, this is your child and you're like, I just want you to feel better. And I want you to realize that like the ability to change this is within you.

So if we sit down, if we sit down and we breathe for five minutes, all of a sudden he goes, oh, that, you know, that was really uncomfortable and I hated that, but my anxiety is gone. So the next time, okay, maybe now it only takes three minutes. And then subsequent times, okay, now I can get rid of that in 60 seconds or less. So you've just empowered him with the belief to go, oh, I can get rid of that. And it's not some bullshit outside of me, like I've got to go smoke a joint or I've got to smoke a cigarette or I've got to take a shot of alcohol. Now it's an internal coping mechanism. That's what people need to be empowered with. And that's why I've taken this stance toward this spiritual journey, man, because ultimately our physiological being is just a result of our chemical state in our mind for the most

part, right? Some people have obviously genetic predisposition to certain chemical scenarios, which again, I'm not an expert on that stuff and that needs to be dealt with accordingly. But most people, I'd say 90 to 95% of people, it's just a chemical response to your environment or your situation. So how do we change that? Well, create a coping mechanism, man. Is it going to be easy and massively effective the first time? No, it's going to be hard. Say fucking good. Say thank you. It's hard because now I know I'm getting better. And then in three months, all of a sudden, God, I can breathe away my anxiety in five breaths.

Now I've got an internal locus of control. I've got self-confidence that I know I can change anything in my life. This is the kind of shit people need to be talking about with their kids. I totally agree. That's a great point. And for people listening, if you want to see it firsthand, you can use, I think they call it the box breathing technique, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Four, four, four, four, four, four seconds in, hold it for four seconds, four seconds out. I actually like to do that unless I'm very tired and I'm just out at night. If I'm not asleep within, I don't know, 10 minutes or so, I'll do that at night just to calm my body down. Just cause, uh, I mean, usually I'm okay at night. It's not like my mind's racing or anything. It's just, I'm not asleep yet. So, um, it's, you know, it's, I think even though I'm not, I'm not doing it formally, but there's, there's body scanning, right? So usually I'm just relaxing. I'm trying to relax all the muscles in my body, including my jaw. I've noticed that I usually just sit there with kind of a tensed up face, relax all the muscles in my face, relax all the muscles in my body, and just do kind of slow, controlled breathing.

And it's a nice, relaxing way to fall asleep, if nothing else. Yeah, man. And that's where everyone holds their tension, right? It's either your jaw. So they suggest like the back of your throat, your jaw, your shoulders are going to be the most common places for holding tension. And it's literally just as simple as like, hey man, pay attention to it. Like if you can do that, you can change it. And that's why I think, again, coming back to meditation, like that's what meditation is for me. It's like this daily

inventory of my body. Like, what am I doing? Am I clenching my jaw? Okay, well, let's stop doing that. Am I furrowing my eyebrow? We'll stop doing that. You know, like, and it's just like, Oh, I can start paying attention to realizing I can control it. It's powerful, man. Yeah. I pay attention to my facial expressions as well. Cause you know, there's research on that, that if, uh, simply smiling or frowning will affect your mood. Generally speaking, of course, it's not everybody all the time, but that's just like a good rule of thumb. If you're sitting there frowning, uh, if you just start smiling, force yourself to smile, you will probably feel better immediately. And I don't even open my eyes in the morning until I smile and I'll tell you my routine.

It's kind of funny. I'm very blessed to have three young kids who are just amazing. And so before I even open my eyes, I do three minutes of gratitude in my bed. And I start with things that are close to me. So usually it's my wife, and then it's my kids, and it's my house, and it's my business, and then it's my employees and my team. And you're going through this kind of circle, this ever-expanding circle. And you do your three minutes. And by the time you're done that, man, I'm so overwhelmed with gratitude.

My first emotion is always a massive smile. And then, God, things are good, man. Like, rather than starting the day going, oh, fuck, what do I have to do today? I haven't even got out of bed before I put myself into a state of going, my life is really, really blessed. No matter how shit things are after that, you still started your day with this massive smile. You can end your day with this massive smile. And then all of a sudden, hey, man, what happens in between? I can't always control it, but I can certainly control the way I start and the way I finish.

always control it, but I can certainly control the way I start and the way I finish. And I mean, chances are what I've noticed is the things that happen between start to go a little bit more positively when you start and finish your day with that positive sense of gratitude. Yeah. Yeah. I've been doing something similar for some time now, which is just three things that I'm thankful for. I just keep it simple. I usually do it when I get to the office though. I have, I put them in a spreadsheet because I don't know, OCD. Yeah. That's your brain. That's all right, man. Whatever it takes, right? Hey, before we continue,

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audio books for free, just go to legionathletics.com slash Audible and sign up for your account. So tell me a bit about the, just your spiritual like what does that mean to you i'm curious because because you you say that but then at the same time do you think that is it we're just brains and we're just squirts of chemicals or where are you at in terms of spirituality um good question man uh like have you taken it further than meditation it sounds like you have well as far as what like well i mean have you what people want to talk go down the psychedelic i'm actually personally not interested uh i think that i mean this is me maybe it's just because for whatever reason i've never been interested in drugs i've never even been drunk i just don't care about drugs at all whatsoever um so i'm biased and i don't, I actually couldn't even tell you exactly why, but I'm,

but I'm biased in that, in that way. However, I wouldn't be surprised if, and it's cliche to, to quote Jordan Peterson, but I wouldn't be surprised if his take on it, that at least his take resonates more with me, which is there are interesting, interesting things that can happen, yes, with these drugs, but it seems to be a cheat of sorts in terms of accessing states that otherwise you couldn't access. And you do that enough, you cheat enough, and there are consequences, basically. No question, man. And I'll tell you, very similar to you, man. I grew up very religious. I grew up in a family of alcoholics, actually. And so, for that reason, I never drank. I didn't do drugs, never smoked weed. you man i grew up um you know very religious i grew up in a family of alcoholics actually and so for that reason i never drank i didn't do drugs um you know never smoked weed um none of

that shit it just wasn't my thing and you know since now you know being 37 years old um i have tried psychedelics and i do see benefits and it's because i have a belief that now i am in control i have the ability to choose consciously and not want to do it multiple times that I can choose as a consenting adult and say, hey, man, like I want to try this and see what it does. There's definitely benefits, but I can also see how people just use it as an escape. Right. So are you using it to challenge yourself and grow as a human or are you doing it as an escape? And I'd say a large percentage of people are just you doing it to change your state, man. Like nobody smokes a joint because they want to expand their consciousness. They smoke a joint because they want to feel better. And cool if that's what you want to do.

That's not my thing. But so, you know, again, not going down the route of psychedelics, but so man, my spirituality is exploring me, exploring who I am, why I'm meant to be here. You know, is there, uh, other things that exist that we don't know about is, uh, what, first of all, I think it starts with knowing, knowing yourself. So, um, what are my unconscious beliefs? Um, what are the things holding me back from living my true happiness? Who am I inside? Um, what do I feel like I am at my core? And how do I allow that to live its fullest? Meaning, you know, the person that we are now, you know, Ben Pekulski, for whatever that name that somebody put on me as a child, is just the set of stories that I've

told myself up to this point, the set of activities and experiences that I've had up to this point, that's who ultimately I've become, or at least the personality that I've developed in response to all these situations that I've had. So is that actually who I am? Or is that who I've become to be accepted in this world, right? So as a child, you know, you find out, hey, man, if, if you say this word, you get in trouble. So you don't say that word. If you act this way, people don't love you. So you don't act that way.

So you develop this personality that's a reflection of whatever it took for you to belong in society. So whatever it took for you to get love, was that really who I am? Is that really what makes me fulfilled? Is that really why I'm on this earth? So that's really where my journey is man it's like okay let's let's rewind all this and let's unravel all these bs stories that i put on myself about who my family is and why i can't do certain things and why i do do certain things and really just explore who i am at my core and why i'm on this earth and for me that's the spiritual journey is I'm starting

to just peel back the layers of the onion, you know, you peel back one layer, there's another one there and keep going deeper and deeper. And the reason I think psychedelics are a useful tool is because yes, it is going to accelerate that journey. And as long as it's the realization that it's not meant to be like this perpetual thing, you know, if I do psychedelics, it's like, you know, once a year or something. And then, so you do it and you see things and you're like, hey, man, okay, now I'm aware of this. I'm aware of what's going on there. And then now I spend the next 12 months trying to meditate on that and understand it. And what was that I saw?

And how can I explore that consciously? And you realize, okay, I can reach these psychedelic states or these altered states without psychedelics. Oh, okay. Now I can access that stuff in my meditation i can you know access different brain states through meditation well that's a powerful place but had i not seen it in meditation or site in psychedelics i don't know that i've ever got there so again what's what's an example of that i'm just i'm genuinely curious uh if there's one if there's one that you wouldn't mind sharing yeah man no problem I'll share anything

I'm an open book an altered state of consciousness meaning you're in a state of meditation and you leave your body and so you're ultimately awake aware of your body but you are not your body so you're outside your body that's like a specific example of something that you were like holy shit what yeah that's an altered

state right so like that would be a similar experience that you may have if you're taking a psychedelic like this this exiting of of your physical body and realizing that you're this energetic being that lives in a body you are not your body you live in a body and you're like you step outside your body you watch your body and it's sitting there you're like oh okay this is interesting why is this happening and how can i explore this a little bit more and then you know the idea that you know, what happens when your body goes away? Who knows? But does the energetic being that lives inside it go away or does that just change forms? You know, who knows? I don't know the answer. We could claim that's a little bit out there, a little bit woo-woo, but like, I don't fucking know the answer. I don't think anyone will ever know the answer. It's just about your beliefs. So, um, you know, explore it. Why not see, see what happens. And I think the idea of having creative exploration of these altered States is very interesting. Um, so what do you think, what do you think that means? I'm sure that if having that experience led you to at least start reading up on a, well, what other people say

about this or what is, cause that's like a, Oh, it could's like a oh it could be in the it could be in the sciences or it could be in religion be more of the eastern tradition obviously something more like oh well have you just done buddhism or what i'm just curious what are your thoughts like what do you think that means my greatest influence on that thought process is a guy named wayne dyer ironically the first book i ever read when it comes to you to spirituality and self-improvement was 2007. And still to this day, he's the greatest influence on my life. And I listened to a podcast he did last week with Oprah and again, opened up my mind to this whole new realm of possibility of what life really is. But he gets into the thoughts.

The irony of Wayne is he's extremely spiritual, but he's also very religious. He's a big believer in God, the Bible, but he's also very spiritual. And this idea of this physical body is a physical manifestation of energy. And the energetic being that exists inside of it exists without the body. So when I go to sleep at night, what goes to sleep? My body goes to sleep. My consciousness still lives there. It's still awake.

You still can access consciousness when you're asleep. So you can actually train yourself to ultimately be completely conscious while your physical body sleeps. They've proven that. So now that gives us a good idea that maybe this consciousness actually could exist without this physical form. So, okay, well, if that's the case, maybe then after this body uh tires out expires the the mitochondria can no longer produce energy um well where does consciousness go maybe it could continue to live on you know maybe it needs to find a new being to exist in maybe it needs to maybe it can exist in a different dimension in a different realm who knows um you know with our

five senses we're limited to what our five senses can feel and sense. So maybe there's things that exist beyond our five senses. And that to me is just a fascinating exploration. And that's why I believe now the journey has to be within, man. That's the only thing worth exploring is this internal dialogue with yourself about who you really are at your core and what is fulfilling to that being. And how can you provide greater value to this, to the species, to humanity? You know, ultimately we're the laziest generation of the human species ever. Well, how can we change that?

How can we help this species actually evolve rather than devolve? You know, it's a very interesting conversation that I ultimately don't have any answers to, man. I'm just exploring what my fulfillment looks like, what my passion is now. How can I be a contributing member to the species? Yeah, I mean, you could imagine if that were true, that changes everything. I mean, if that were true, if we are- Sure, consciousness lives on.

Yeah. And are you familiar with the reincarnation research that is coming out of UVA? No, I'm not. Oh, dude, you should look into it. So it's, it was started by, I want to say his name was Ian Stevenson and it was his life's work. Um, prestigious scientists like published in major journals, um, decades of work, decades of case studies all around the world. And so he died some time ago, but his work was carried on by his protege, Jim Tucker. Stevenson wrote books, Tucker has written books, and the team has grown to several individuals. I don't know exactly how many now.

I listened to, it was a lecture. There was, I don't know, maybe a panel of five or so, and that was a lecture that they gave a year or two ago. And so basically, um, you can, and you go check it out, Ben, you'll find a fascinating way of listening. You can just Google, you know, UVA reincarnation research and find all kinds of all kinds of stuff on it. But basically what they have is they have thousands and thousands of case studies, mostly with children, younger children, uh, is it's most common for them to be to talk about having lived before right so it could be a kid um and there are i'd say themes and and these themes are consistent everywhere in the world different cultures doesn't matter um so they might be talking about you know you

might have a four-year-old your four-year-old might come up to you one day and say hey how is my family doing and you're like what do you mean and they say, Hey, how's my family doing? And you're like, what do you mean? And they say, Oh, well, my, my wife, uh, Mary and my kids, uh, Billy and, uh, um, and I'll say Romy, my daughter. And, and you're like, well, what are you talking about? And they'll, and they'll tell you a story about how they, you know, this is what they were doing last lifetime. And this is, this is what happened to them. And so they have thousands and thousands of these, but what is even more interesting is that about half of them, I want to say 17, 1800 are solved cases, meaning. So it starts with something like that. And then the team, uh, gets, gets information from, I mean, again, this is like a four or five, six year old kid, and then goes and verifies everything that they were saying and finds who they were in their previous life and finds,

oh yes, this person, uh, so-and-so was married to Mary and did have the two kids. And, um, so there was like one particular case that, uh, made the, the, the rounds in the media, I don't know, a few years ago. So there was a kid, long story short, he had a lot of trouble sleeping. He would have this recurring dream of being trapped in the cockpit of a plane and it's on fire. And he was obsessed with World War II and dogfighting. And that's all he would draw is dogfights and planes on fire. And the parents were a bit concerned, but kids go through weird phases and whatever. But it wasn't going away. And when he got a little bit older, they started to ask him about it.

Like, so what is it? What is it about all this shit that matters so much to you? And he told them that he was in World War II and he was shot down in Japan. And it was a very traumatic death and he just isn't it just he's stuck on this right and so the parents who are very Christian were like okay whatever dude but as it continued they they asked him they got more information out of him and he said this was my name this was the squadron or whatever that I was in and so eventually they went and checked it out and lo and behold there was a person by that name in that squadron who whatever that I was in. And so eventually they went and checked it out. And

lo and behold, there was a person by that name in that squadron who got shot down over a Bay in Japan. Um, and so that, at that point they were like, Whoa, wait a minute. This is, I mean, this is again, the kid was, he was young. I don't remember the exact age, six, seven years old. Like there's no way this kid is making this shit up that he just, you know what I mean? So, so they also arranged, there was one, if I remember correctly, a guy, Charlie, something who was still alive, who was in that squadron. They arranged a Skype call with their son. Didn't tell him who the guy was. Hey, there's someone we want you to meet. He sees him on Skype and starts crying. Charlie, how are you? How's blah, blah. How's, you know, how are your kids? And, um, and so it, at that

point, the parents are just like, okay, we don't know exactly what this means or why God has, you know, why, why is this kid not in heaven or some, why, why is he back? We don't know, but he, this happened. And, uh, so it ends with the story. Um, he, there was a film company that bought the rights to make a movie about it and they flew a movie may have come out. Actually. I don't know. I never saw it. It obviously wasn't some wide release thing, but they flew him out to Japan where they found the Bay where it were this plane, where he was shot down his plane. They found the plane on the bottom of the Bay and he held a funeral for himself in his previous life. And afterward, that was the end of the dreams.

That was the end of it for him. That was closure and he was able to move on. So, that's just one of the many stories that has come out of and the many case studies that have come out of the UVA team that is looking into reincarnation. Again, our paradigm is only as wide as what we're taught as children, right? So if nobody's ever explained this to you or tried to explain it to you, you can't believe it. So I don't doubt anything, man. Like I live my life as a skeptic, but also an open-minded one. I don't know.

I can't say yes, I can't say no, but it sounds like these things are very possible. I've had many things in my life happen that are just too coincidental to be a coincidence, right? It's just, yeah, it's just, uh, it's incredible that, so who knows? Synchronicity, right? Yeah. And it just happens too often, man. Like it's, it's. Remote viewing is another fascinating topic that. A lot of documented evidence. Like, there's no question that some people have been and are very good at this. And it's just, how do you explain that? And then you bring the question in, Mike, that what if everyone's good at that?

But we're also... Oh, yeah. No, no. I mean, that's... I mean, if you just... I've watched interviews with people who participated in the original, going all the way back to the original Stanford program and then to the, what was it? It was over here in Maryland, actually, is where then it was based out of.

It had different names. Stargate was one of its names, right? And basically what he was saying is that he holds, even today, he holds seminars and he teaches people. And everybody has the latent ability, it seems. It's just some people can tap into it easier than others. Some people seem to have a talent for it, are just very good at it right out of the gates. And other people, it takes more time to develop. many more abilities than we're aware of, but how many hours a day, Mike, do you spend by yourself exploring your thoughts, exploring your consciousness, exploring your feelings in your body? Like nobody does that, right? Like even, even, or, or, or I mean doing anything other than writing articles, writing books, recording podcasts, just being busy. I mean, I've thought about that. And you just think about the paradigm of our society is just,

what if instead of all the, let's just take all the advertising money and all the work and everything that goes into just a demand for shit. What if, what if all of that were channeled into something else, for example, and to the stuff that we're talking about can't be right. Cause, cause the world will ultimately be anarchy.

I think that that's maybe what happened. Well, no, I mean, that's economics though. I'm saying like we, we were in an economic system that it seems like it's prime directive is to just expand is just engulf everything. Right. Um, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be like that. It's just, that's, that's the system that we have right now, in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, um, it would certainly take some time to change it. Right. It would take, it would certainly take some time to change it right it would take it would take some oh of course of course but ultimately the powers that be don't want to lose the power and if you keep allowing people to expand their consciousness and question

the the control of the governments or the direction of you know material goods and ultimately the economy i mean social media i'd say social media at this point social media probably has yeah i mean you have to say social media has uh more brainwashing power than anything else at this point even even more than mainstream media probably because mainstream media's audience is more limited than social media yeah man um it's who knows like and i think that the powers that be will always reign supreme because they'll always find a way to control the masses you know i'm kind of i've got some unique insights into um what they call covert influence meaning like i mean i've been studying that a little bit some

people made me aware of it and just like how we're influenced and we don't know about it um so i've been what do you mean? You know, social media, how they're intentionally influencing your thought process. You get it, man. Like Google's listening to your calls. They're influencing what you see, how the TV stations are influencing what you see, and even your conscious state, like always living in a state of fear and limitation drives economy, right? It drives purchase. It drives impulsive behavior. The reason that media is so powerful and they want to control your conscious thought is because they don't want you to be thinking. They want you to be unconscious so you purchase more things. They don't want you to be going down these spiritual journeys and start questioning your existence because ultimately it doesn't drive the economy.

Ultimately, it drives anarchy because if people start to question why people are putting limitations on them and it's a huge cohort of people, it can cause a big, big shift in the world. So covert influences, if you just look it up, you'll find some interesting stuff around what's happening in the media, what's happening in social media, how they're literally building that into social media platforms where they're building the addictive behaviors in on purpose. Yeah, it's so interesting. Of course. These people are not our friends. We are their customers.

Once you actually get to meet them or like get to talk to them, you realize just how bright these people are, man. Like, you know, you're a bright guy, Mike. I consider myself a relatively bright guy. And, you know, the fact that I think about it, I think, puts me ahead of most people. Most people are just completely asleep to it. But when you're in a room with these people, you're like, holy shit, like these guys are so smart, so good at

this one specific thing. And like, they can manipulate anything you do, anything you see throughout the day at any time, and they're consciously doing it. And that's just interesting. I don't want to give my opinions on it, but it's very interesting that like that exists in the world. And which is why I'm sure you're aware of like, man, I shelter the shit out of my kids. I don't want my kids seeing TV. I don't want them on social media. I want them to at least allow their brains to develop to the extent that they can be high-functioning human beings or adults in their adult lives and not be guided, someone else's conscious desires. Anyways, not to get into the conspiracy stuff, but like, that's ultimately what it is, man.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I actually, I don't like that. I think it's less of a pejorative now, though, even the word conspiracy, but oh, that's a conspiracy theory. Only, only an ignorant person says that, period. I mean, somebody who's literally just ignorant of history, of mainline history. History is driven by conspiracies, period. The vast majority of all the major events in history that have shaped the world and gotten us where we are were conspiratorial in nature. There have always been,

for example, people in power who conspire by definition, work secretly behind the scenes to accrue more power and to crush their enemies and to shape the world in their image or in, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of like a paternalistic where they think that because they're so smart or because they have so much money or because they've been so successful, they have the right ideas about how the world and because they have the agency to do it and they have the resources and the wherewithal to do it, that they should be the ones to determine where the world sure the world goes and that's just human nature the other side of that where it's like it's almost better that they don't tell everybody you know like think of seven billion people being aware of some of the ongoings of the world like if you're aware of some of the military stuff that goes on behind the scenes you're like if everyone knew that the world would be fucking anarchy man like because the people are so not a lot but a lot of people are so low level at education or such low level of education that

they just turn in it just would just turn into a complete chaotic existence i think i know like some of the some of the fear-based things that actually exist that they hold that they hold from us like i'm like that's probably a good thing man that's probably yeah no i agree i mean there's a need to know if you're talking about military stuff but i think the the problem uh is more that is in i'm speaking from well having read thousands of pages of stuff on that this is this has been a topic that i've been interested in for many years and i don't just for anybody listening, if you want to get a taste of it from somebody who's... You could never just dismiss as a quack or quote-unquote conspiracy theorist.

Check out The Anglo-American Establishment by Carol Quigley, who was a professor at Georgetown University. You can look into his bona fides and he also if you have the balls read tragedy and hope which he lays out um how a very small group of people over the last 100 150 years have uh taken over the world basically and um again look into who he is and i I mean, this is, let me, Bill Clinton said that tragedy and hope was the most influential book he's ever read. That's the level that's, that's who Carol Quigley was. Right. And so as far as I'm concerned, I think the major issue is, uh, some of the most powerful people in the world. And really what that comes down to is people who have accrued so much wealth and then deployed it so intelligently that they can push the right buttons and pull the right levers to just cause, to affect their will, basically, whatever it is that they want to do. They're above governments and they run in international financier circles. And that these people, their vision for the world is, to be specific, read Brave New World or just Brave New World. That's it. That's their vision for the world.

And Julian Huxley, who I think he founded UNESCO, one of the big higher-ups in the UN early on, Aldous Huxley's brother, straight up said that, oh yeah, Brave New World is a plan. This is a vision. It's not just a fiction story. And we see it unfolding before our eyes. that the bigger plan is going to be great for a very small minority of people and very bad for a very large majority of people. And why that is is probably because a lot of these people are psychopaths and sociopaths. A lot of these people that, again, you don't hear about them. They're not on any Forbes lists, and they have incalculable amounts of wealth and power. And so, and if anybody listening going, Oh yeah, conspiracy theory, I challenge you read Carol Quigley's and I could, I could send you off down a rabbit hole to read a lot more stuff, but start there. And the reason why I love Quigley's work is because of who he was. You simply can't dismiss him as saying, oh, what the fuck did he know?

Like he had a top tier pedigree. I already got it on Amazon. Carol Quigley, the Anglo-American. We chatted about it another time. Yeah. Anyways, now I'm just ranting about the state of, uh, I mean, it's a reality, we get it, but,

um, and you know, you can look back throughout the history of time and look at the people who have fancied themselves with a God complex. And that seems to be what it is, right? If you're, if you're raised in a family where,

you know, from the time you're born, you're told that you're special. You're told that you're, you own the world. You told, you're told that ultimately you can have anything you want. Nobody can tell you what to do. Uh, you can tell anyone what to do. You're told that you own the world. You're told that ultimately you can have anything you want. Nobody can tell you what to do. You can tell anyone what to do. You've got

maids, you've got servants, you've got whatever you want at any time. Eventually by the time you're old enough to probably form sentences, you probably have some degree of superiority complex. And that can evolve in the wrong environment to someone who's just like, well, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want. Like I can drive what I want. I'm above the law. I don't have to fucking pay attention. I can drive. I can do anything.

And imagine where that could go, like in a creative, in the wrong type of creative mind where they're just like, oh, I want to run the world. I want to be the most powerful man in the world. I want to see, it ultimately becomes a game or maybe it becomes just a conscious endeavor to, you know, do their will. So interesting. Yeah, it's a bit of it's a bit of a it's a manifest destiny type of thing. John Rockefeller was very much like that. If you read Titan by the biography, I mean, it's a kind of a whitewashed and kind of a whitewashed biography. But but you get you get an absolute sense of that. He thought that

he was blessed by God basically. And that's why he was, uh, able to monopolize the oil, uh, refining industry. And that's why he was able to make all this money and that it was his, it was his duty to get as rich as he possibly could his duty to God. That's why he was placed on this earth. And with that also comes, you know, again, um, that, well, that's, that, that's what he wanted to do in, in oil refining, but what did he want to do in education? Oh, well, he could do that. What did he want to do? And so not, not everything he did was bad, of course, and a bit, and quite a bit of his philanthropy was, was beneficial, but it also quite a bit of it was not beneficial, but it also, quite a bit of it was not, and put an education system in place

that we're still reeling from. And anyway, so you see that, you know, George Soros, another example, in one of his, I think it was a 60 Minutes interview, where he was saying he has a God complex. He was just saying, yes, absolutely. I'm going to read the Wikipedia quickly right now. And you take that take that so it says attended harvard where he got his b.a. m.a. and phd he taught at princeton and then harvard serve as a consultant to the u.s department

of defense the navy and the spisonian um and the house of select uh astronautics and space exploration so yep and then he also that's not even in his debt and then you'll see what he did at georgetown right he's retired from georgetown in 76 yep with foreign services and founded that uh that whole department what did he die that became a old age or did he get killed actually i don't know um the probably old age i don't think i don't think he was killed and in the story of the book is interesting uh as. Tragedy and Hope was the book that, and that's his magnum opus. That was his life's work. And the fact that it even-

Sorry, which one was? Tragedy and Hope. Okay. So it's like 1,400 pages. Oh, wow. And yeah. And scholarly, the fact that it got released was an anomaly. Because of who he was, it must not have gotten vetted, really.

So it comes out, I think it was Macmillan publishes back in the fifties or sixties comes out and, um, 13, 1400 page book. It's a tome, but because of the information in it, which is he, he was an interesting person in that he didn't disagree with the, the overall assessment of the world and what needed to be done and even what was being done. He disagreed that it should be secret. He thought that it would be better if it were just known and that people could then understand, look, this is the problem that we have. There are hard realities we have to deal with. I feel like now I'm talking with libertarians, right? Where libertarian say, it sounds cute. It's a utopia. If you have, yes, if you have high IQ, high agency, high trust, ethical people, you can have

your libertarian utopia. That's not the fucking world. It will libertarianism is just as workable as communism in my mind. Right. So, uh, so was saying, look, the, the, the, the assessment of what is wrong with the world and what do we need to do as a species to, to evolve and to not obliterate ourselves, uh, basically he agreed. And he even agreed, I think overall with, with the plan, he just didn't think that it should be kept secret. He thought, Hey, if we can educate people on how, how did all of these smart people, because you have these people at the top with all the money and ultimately really in all the power, and then, but you have think tank kind of round table groups full of very, very smart people that

just sit around all day and think about the big problems that we are facing as a species and what do we do about it. And I do think that a lot of what comes out of that has a negative slant because of, again, I do think that a fair amount of the people who are really in charge are just inherently bad people. And so they might say all the right things and you might think they have all the right intentions, but the results are ultimately just far more destructive than they are constructive, which for me is at least a decent definition of, of bad. You know what I mean? If something's bad, if it destroys more than it helps or harms more than it helps, destroys more than it creates, probably bad. Um, uh, anyway, so Quigley, then he writes this book

and just lays out, um, here, here's how these people have gotten into the position that they're in names, all of them. I mean, it's, it's exhaustive, right? In detail chronicles, everything book comes out and it becomes a immediate bestseller, which is surprising for a 1400 page book that, uh, is, is, is that is, again, it's like academic reading. And then word gets around what's in the book, right? And so Macmillan, then there's pressure that's put on Macmillan. They tell Quigley, it's not selling, and we're not going to do any more print runs. And they actually destroy the plates as well. So the book is just killed, completely killed. And now it's back because I'm assuming it must be Quigley's estate. Because for a while, the only way you could get it,

well, it was re-released later, but it was a redact. Stuff was taken out. It was an edited kind of a bridge version, right? And the only way to get the original was you had to buy them used and they were thousands of dollars um but now it looks like quickly as a state assuming that what you can buy on amazon now it says this is the original unabridged and it looks like it's their their estate finally got the rights back to publish it um so it's it's a wild i mean that and then and then he also wrote other books too the reason why i recommend the anglo-american establishment is it's shorter it's a wild, I mean that, and then, and then he also wrote other books too. The reason why I recommend the Anglo American establishment is it's shorter. It's a couple hundred pages

and it gives you a taste. And if it's really a something where it's like, if you can even conceive of the possibility, if you're willing to face that this might be reality, then keep going. If not, it's, it's the, it's the quintessential matrix moment, right? Uh, if you hear it here, you've just tasted the red pill. If you want more, keep going. If you, if you, if you don't like it, take the blue pill and just pretend like none of this is happening and everything is just for the best and all the free market, free markets are just going to take care of everything. And we're going to be 3D printing cool stuff. And everything's going to be great.

Okay. Yeah. It's interesting because you get guys like Bezos and Tony Hsieh coming in and becoming billionaires. And they're probably the guys who are even Zuckerberg could come in and actually influence some of the shit. I do think so. And you wonder how their motivation is going to sway the world, you know, because like these massive companies that come in so fast,

ultimately become what they call the, you know, the wealthiest people in the world. And you can argue that Bezos, you know, just because he's listed as the most, most wealthy doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth. But you know,

yeah. No, for anybody that just, just go, just go poke around into the Rothschild fortune, for example. Dwarf spaces. Yeah, because it's not just one person. It's distributed amongst probably 30 to 50 people, but certainly dwarfs.

And innumerable trusts and holding companies. Anyways, but you got to wonder if they can actually make a dent, and then maybe there's a hope. I think so. I think so. I mean, yeah, even let's and then maybe there's a hope, you know, like, but. I think so. I think so. I mean, yeah, even let's say, let's say, let's take a guy like Bezos, right? With the wealth that he commands. And let's say if he were the people that he would be trying, I mean, at that point, he'd be going up against would have many, many, many times that. many, many times that, but it's enough money to make a difference. If, if, I mean, just a portion of it would be enough to make a difference if it were deployed intelligently. Not the direction we

were planning on going, Mike, but still a pretty awesome discussion, man. A good, a good way to, Hey, if people are still listening, it's because they, they want to still be listening. I think it's better to get into, we're just. We're just at the end having fun. Yeah. And, you know, if anyone questions the legitimacy of this stuff, it's like I'd start questioning your own thoughts because, you know, just you don't have to. I'm sure you get this a lot too. People will just come on, listen to something you say and discredit it rather than thinking

about it. And I'm like, hey, think about it. You know, the fact that it's even a possibility, you don't have to judge it. You don't have to believe it or not, but at least start thinking about it and making an awareness around it. And I think living life that's informed and educated is absolutely essential and always your choice whether or not you choose to let it influence your actions or not. Right.

But knowing is definitely step one in anything in life. And same thing with the stuff that I teach, man, like you can choose that. Hey, man, you know, I don't want to know this stuff. Like I choose to just train mindlessly and train like a monkey. But I think in knowing it is step one in anything you do. So, you know, this is why creating an awareness around as many things as you can in life is useful and why people probably love your podcast. Well said. And a nice wrap up.

So let's just let everybody know where they can find you in your work. I'll be the guy. Do you have seminars coming up? I'll be the guy with my nose on Cal Quigley's book for the next 10 years. So if you want to find me. Again, start with Anglo-American nostalgia. That's a good appetizer. I'm going to have a really long beard and probably have all my electricity turned off

and be reading by a candlelight somewhere for the next. But you'll finish the fucking book, all 1400 pages. You'll be one of you. It's kind of like atlas shrugged it's like it's like a rite of passage as you're able to say i read 10 years and we're gonna have another podcast uh my beard might be a little bit longer it might be a little bit skinnier but we're gonna do it man um so hey hey you said didn't last time we spoke you said you you wanted to, maybe you're done losing muscle, but you want to lose muscle for a bit. It's more just like the lack of necessity to walk around at 300 pounds. And people assume like, oh, you're going to stop competing.

You're going to lose a bunch of muscle. It just doesn't happen because my muscle was earned. It's 20 years of relentless dedication to what I did. And now, so I'm taking a much more relaxed approach to my fitness and nutrition and training the way I feel is right. And still trying to maintain strength, maintain mobility. And my kind of articulation of what I'm trying to do with my life is brilliant mind, resilient body. So I want to have, you know, the ability to read great books and have great conversations while still being able to do all

the cool things i want with my kids so that's that and to answer your question man where people can find me the muscle intelligence podcast is on itunes teaching people intelligent strategies to build their greatest body and live their greatest life and muscleintelligence.com is launching very very soon the site is done we're just finishing up the details. So that may be out by the time you launched the podcast. And if not, mi40nation.com. So muscle intelligence is the extended version of MI40, which is short for muscle intelligence. So MI40 is the business. Muscle intelligence is the new version. That's it. That's me. Awesome, man. Thanks as always. It's fun chatting. Next time we'll schedule a three-hour podcast

and we'll talk about quickly i like it i like it all right buddy i appreciate your time man thank you hey there it is mike again i hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful and if you did and don't mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you're listening from. This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility and thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then just subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any of the new goodies.

Lastly, if you didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at mike at muscle for life.com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback, so please do reach out. All right, that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon. And lastly, this episode is brought to you by me. Seriously, though, I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm going to just quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my fitness book for men, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. Now, this book has sold over 350,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of guys build their best bodies ever,

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