Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Chris Barakat on Optimizing Peri-Workout Nutrition

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

If you like to geek out, this episode is for you. That’s because I’m getting into the weeds with Chris Barakat on peri-workout nutrition. If you don’t know what that means, peri-workout nutrition refers to the food you eat before, during, and after training. We’re talking pre-workout meals, post-workout feasts, and even intraworkout replenishment. Now, one important point (and one we’ll get into further in the episode) is that the advanced strategies Chris discusses are optimizations, as opposed to foundational knowledge. If you’re someone who just wants to get in shape without too much fuss, get your energy balance right and follow a meal plan that hits your macro targets, and you’re going to be doing better than most. In other words, get the most important things right, most of the time, and you’ll do well. But if you’re someone who likes to optimize--someone who wants to do everything you can to eke out every ounce of progress possible, these are the types of dietary strategies you should at least be thinking about. These small tweaks may not make a noticeable difference in the moment, but they can move the needle over time. Even if that’s not you, though, I think you’ll find this episode interesting, and you just may learn a strategy or two you’d like to try. In our chat, Chris and I talk about . . . What peri-workout nutrition is Specific macros and food choices for pre-workout and post-workout nutrition Whether the glycemic index of your carb choices matters Carbohydrate supplements When intraworkout nutrition is useful (and when it’s not) And much more . . . If you’re not familiar with Chris, he’s not only a member of Legion’s Scientific Review Board, he’s also a published scientist, educator, coach, and natural bodybuilder, so he’s had many years of developing his book smarts and “in the trenches” know-how, and definitely knows how to get results. So take a listen and let me know which of the strategies we discuss you’ll be implementing, as well as your own favorite peri-workout foods. :) Timestamps: 5:06 - What is peri-workout nutrition? 19:46 - What does a pre-workout meal look like? 25:33 - What are your thoughts on carbohydrate supplements? 35:51 - What should your protein and fat intake look like before a workout? 40:44 - How do you approach post workout? 47:12 - Is resynthesis more efficient at night? Mentioned on the Show: Chris Barakat's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/christopher.barakat/ Chris Barakat's Website: https://schoolofgainz.com/ Shop Legion Supplements Here: https://buylegion.com/mike Want free workout and meal plans? Download my science-based diet and training templates for men and women: https://legionathletics.com/text-sign-up/

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Muscle for Life. I'm your host, Mike Matthews. Thank you for joining me today to learn about peri-workout nutrition. Now, what the hell does that mean? Well, peri as a prefix means around. It also means near. That's another definition. So peri-workout nutrition refers to the food that you eat around your workout before you train, in the middle of training, and after training. Now, obviously, I have written and spoken about these things a number of times over the years, but I wanted to get Chris Barakat back on the show to break down not just the fundamentals, and that's mostly what I've focused on, but the nittiest and grittiest of details for people who want to optimize every aspect of their peri-workout nutrition.

Is that necessary? No, of course not. But is it fun for people who like to geek out on this stuff? Yes, absolutely. And is it worth considering if you are an intermediate or an advanced weightlifter who is no longer making progress like you once were because that's just how the game works? And especially if you are close to your genetic potential for muscle and strength gain and you're trying to really get to that finish line. Yes, I do think in that case, it makes sense to put more attention on your peri-workout nutrition than you did in the past because it may be able to add, let's say, a few more percent to the bottom line results that you get from your training. Now, that by itself is not exciting, but what if you could add three or four or five other things that also add a few percent

to the bottom line? Well, now, cumulatively, we are really moving the needle. And that is part of the game as a natural weight lifter. If you're really trying to get as big and strong as possible, you're looking for as many little optimizations and advantages as you can get through nutrition strategies, recovery strategies, as you can get through nutrition strategies, recovery strategies, training strategies, supplementation strategies, and so forth. So that is why I am bringing this episode to you today. Again, I'm doing it with Chris Barakat, who is not only a member of Legion's Scientific Review Board, but he's also a published researcher. He's an educator. He's a coach. He is a natural bodybuilder and an all-around good guy. So he's had many years of developing both his book smarts and his in the trenches, at the coalface street

smarts. And I always enjoy talking, lifting with him because he loves this stuff. And in this interview, Chris breaks down what peri-workout nutrition is. He talks about specific macros and food choices for both pre-workout and post-workout eating. He talks about the glycemic index of your carb choices and whether that matters. We talk about carbohydrate supplements, intra-workout nutrition, and more. Also, if you like what I am doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. And we're on top because every ingredient and dose in every product is backed by peer-reviewed scientific research. Every formulation is 100% transparent. There are

no proprietary blends, for example, and everything is naturally sweetened and flavored. So that means no artificial sweeteners, no artificial food dyes, which may not be as dangerous as some people would have you believe, but there is good evidence to suggest that having many servings of artificial sweeteners in particular every day for long periods of time may not be the best for your health. So while you don't need pills, powders, and potions to get into great shape, and frankly most of them are virtually useless, there are natural ingredients that can help you lose fat, build muscle, and get healthy faster, and you will find the best of them in Legion's products. To check out everything we have to offer, including protein

powders and protein bars, pre-workout, post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more, head over to www.buylegion.com, B-U-Y legion.com. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout, and you will save 20% on your entire first order. So again, if you appreciate my work and if you want to see more of it, and if you also want all natural evidence-based supplements that work, please do consider supporting Legion so I can keep doing what I love, like producing more podcasts like this. Hey, Chris, thanks for coming back on my show. I'm excited to have you here. This is number two, right? Yes, sir. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on Mike.

Yeah. Yeah. The first one I got a lot of good feedback on, so I should have done this sooner, Yeah, yeah. The first one I got a lot of good feedback on, so I should have done this sooner, but such is life. Here we are though. And we're going to talk about peri-workout nutrition. And I think the place to start there is what does that mean? For sure. For sure. Yeah, man. A super simple way to put it is essentially what are you eating around your workout window? So, you know, just compromise this of your pre workout meal and your nutritional strategy there, potentially an intra workout, if you are utilizing anything while exercising, and then your post workout meals. So these strategies can be used essentially to maximize your acute training performance, and also acute recovery, which can lead to better outcomes

over the long term when it can come to things like your strength adaptations, your muscle adaptations, or your body composition outcomes. So yeah, something I'm super passionate about talking about and the level of detail is definitely going to matter based on your experience level. And for some populations and situations, it's really not that important or you don't need to give it too much time and energy, but for other situations or different contexts, it can really be pretty valuable just to ensure people are continuing to perform well, recover well, and get the body composition outcomes you're looking for. And just to comment quickly, just so you understand, I think where a lot of people

listening are at and what I've talked about in my books, and I've probably commented, it's been a while here on the podcast and written about certainly in the past. And I've kept it very simple because I knew that I have been speaking to from the beginning to mostly people who are relatively new to proper weightlifting, proper strength training and proper nutrition. And so I'm giving them a lot of information to metabolize as it is. And so as far as pre and post-workout, I didn't even talk about intro workout other than maybe saying, don't worry about it, but just pre and post-workout nutrition, I kept it real simple and I have continued to,

and I've said, Hey, if you haven't eaten protein in the last couple of hours before a workout, not a bad idea to have some protein before you train and have some carbs too, because you are probably going to have a little bit better of a workout if you do, and then have some protein within maybe an hour or so of finishing your workout. You don't have to try to rush to get in protein before the anabolic window closes, but it's probably a good idea within an hour or so. And having some carbs may or may not matter. This is something that I know you're going to get into and I'll be curious as to your thoughts on that. And as far as dietary fat goes, again, based on my understanding of things, it doesn't seem to matter much one way or another. Do what

you like. It's the protein and the carbs and particularly the protein. And that's basically it. That's, uh, I just told people if you do that, you're doing it mostly right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's super important. I mean, I love what you do because you really focus on the foundational, you know, the things that are most important where most people focus on the things that are least important and are actually neglecting the things that are most important. So I know you focus a ton on energy balance. Like supplements, for example, a lot, way too much emphasis on supplements, particularly from supplement marketers.

Yeah. Like, you know, the pyramid that Helms made super popular of having energy balance at the very bottom and then macronutrients and micronutrients and then nutrient timing and then supplements like that order does hold true. And I think each component of the pyramid does have some sort of value. That's why it's there. But unfortunately, people put supplements first, nutrient timing second, maybe micronutrients. Or they look at it the other way around, right? It's like, oh, it's the capstone that's the most important. That's where the all seeing eye, that's the Illuminati. That's the one I want. Exactly. So they have it, you know, backwards a lot of times and they're focusing on things they don't need to be focusing on because they're not even paying

attention to something that is of way more important value. So yeah, but I think context is super important, man. Like even for a beginner intermediate, there's a big difference in regards to how you're going to feel in the gym if you're eating a calorie maintenance or in a calorie surplus versus being in an extended calorie deficit. So just as an example, like we know that as you're in a deficit for an extended period of time, your muscle glycogen stores are going to be depleted. Even your liver glycogen is going to be depleted a bit. And if you're doing quote unquote bodybuilding training or you're training in

that, let's call it, you know, six to 20 rep range, a lot of that does rely on a decent amount of glucose coming in. And if you don't have that in your muscle cell, you can notice that your performance starts to take a hit when you are in a deficit for an extended period of time. So that's when, you know, your pre-workout meal is going to be way more important compared to when you're in a surplus and your energy reserves, like your glycogen stores are full, or even your body fat percent is higher. You just have more energy to tap into. So, you know, the phase that you're currently in is super, super important to consider. And it kind of shifts the level of importance of this peri-workout timing. Yeah. And anybody listening who has done a proper lean bulk or like lean gaining phase,

as well as a proper cutting phase and has eaten a fair amount of carbs before workouts in both of those phases has experienced that. Of course, I've experienced it many times where when I'm in maintenance or particularly if I'm in a surplus, most of my workouts just feel great regardless of whether, I mean, I remember it's been a while since I've been consistently in a surplus, but I remember at that time I was training early in the morning too, which like basically everyone, that means that the workouts are a little bit harder. They certainly feel a little bit harder, but there was a big difference training at like 6.30 AM in a surplus versus 6.30 AM in a deficit fasted. Even in a deficit, like you said, when you get deeper into it, the carbs help before a workout, but there's no way to really replicate the experience of a good lean bulk, especially

as you get into it and you start gaining momentum other than just doing it, unfortunately. Maybe drugs, but there's no natural way. There are no supplements that can do it for you and no special foods or nutrition or even training strategies. Would you agree with that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely no special foods. It's interesting. When you're in a surplus or at maintenance, you can train fasted. And if glycogen levels are relatively full, like you'll still get a great pump, you're not really going to see performance dipping. But as you mentioned, if you've done an extended diet, and you've been in a deficit for a long period of time, if I train fasted, or if some of my clients train fasted in a deficit,

they'll report back like, hey, I felt way weaker, I couldn't hit the same numbers, I fell a few reps short, and my pump sucked. And it's like, well, yeah, you don't have that fuel source actually providing you with the energy to have those sufficient contractions and to perform on the gym. So in those cases, you know, it's just a bit more important to actually focus on the pre-workout meal and stuff like that. But in regards to food sources, I wouldn't say there's anything magical, but believe it or not, I still, I do focus some thought and energy into the glycemic index of different food sources. I wouldn't say there's anything magical, but believe it or not, I still, I do focus some thought and energy into the glycemic index of different food sources for pre-workout meals. Yeah. I'm curious because what immediately jumps to mind there is I remember

writing some time ago based on some research that I had looked at that it probably doesn't make that big of a difference. And I was recommending at that time, people just eat the carbs that they like. Like I like banana before I like to eat a banana before I train. And if I want more carbs, there was a time when I would mix protein powder with rice milk. So I would get about 20 grams of carbs because it just tasted good and it was just easy carbs. And then I'd eat a banana. So, you know, whatever, 40 grams or so. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. A lot of the data we have on performance and pre-workout nutrition is unfortunately in a lot of endurance athletes or people doing some sort of aerobic

exercise at like a moderate intensity. But what some of the data shows is like having lower glycemic carbohydrates, it can basically provide you with more stable amounts of blood glucose throughout your training session. And it can decrease the likelihood of you going hypoglycemic. So essentially having less blood sugar in your plasma while exercising compared to baseline. So that's where you kind of feel like you're crashing, you might get lightheaded. So you know, there can be a reason to prefer entry a low glycemic carb. And then another thing that I actually provide a little bit more importance is low glycemic carbs have been shown to reduce hunger a bit.

So again, if you're tracking your calories and you're counting your macronutrients and you're in a diet, that's awesome. And that's going to be the most important thing. However, if you're not paying attention to food sources, you might be making a little bit harder on yourself to sustain a diet. If you're not picking foods that are, you know, satiating you to a good extent, therefore it's just going to make, you know, adhering to the diet a little bit harder. If you are in a deficit, let's just call it 500 calories, whatever it may be, but you're, you're starving all the time.

It's going to be harder to stick to compared to, you know, you're in this deficit, but your satiety is not like your satiety is great and your hunger is not really an issue or it's not problematic. So the data does show that like utilizing low glycemic carbs can be beneficial in that way. And do you think that that is because of where they fall in the glycemic index? Or do you think it's more related to the types of foods that are generally low glycemic or just they have more fiber often, for example, and are inherently more filling? Yeah, that's interesting. Some of the studies are obviously utilizing, so the low glycemic carbs, it might be more of a whole food that has more fiber. So therefore, it's going to

lead to a smaller insulin spike and a more stable blood glucose level. But there is some data too, that actually took quote unquote, low glycemic sources, medium glycemic sources and high glycemic sources. And they actually blended it into a smoothie and they still saw the benefits from the low glycemic sources. So it's probably a combination of the two. And this may be a dumb question, but would blending into a smoothie, I mean, the fiber is still there? Yeah, for sure. The fiber is absolutely still there. I just found that interesting because obviously then the surface area of what you're digesting is going to be very, very similar if you basically made it a liquid. So I found that interesting because

everyone always states, oh, well, you know, if you're consuming this with a protein and a fat, which most people do, it's not going to make a difference. But yeah, it seems like there's still something there. And then what I've seen with just clients that I've worked with and even myself, there is some sort of benefit where if they're in the gym for longer than 60 minutes, they need something that's going to sustain them for a bit longer. So, you know, having something like a sweet potato just might be a smarter move compared to having something like a Pop-Tart, you know, now is this going to completely change their results? No. But if you're doing this on a daily basis over a time span of, you know, 12 weeks, it probably can just enhance your results a tad because you're going to be performing at a higher level, potentially recovering at a higher level. And we know that that's essentially driving the

adaptations we're looking for. Yeah. And that's something that I often talk about is just that longer term view of, I mean, really there aren't that many nutritional training beyond the basics. There aren't that many things we can add supplements to make that much of a difference. And if we look at them individually, so let's just say that through the stuff you're going to be sharing on this podcast, somebody could get three or 5% better results. That may be too high, but let's just say it's in that. Let's just say it's a number that sounds very low to people. They're like, oh, why even bother? And yeah, if that's all you did, but what if you add now you did, but what if you

add now creatine? And what if you add, if we're talking supplements, what if you now add citrulline and beta alanine? And what if you now address some deficiencies in your programming that again, give you just little increases in your bottom line results? Well, all of those things can have maybe a cumulative effect of 15 to 20% faster muscle and strength gain. And that's pretty cool. Even for people who are committed to this as a lifestyle and who plan on doing this for the rest of their lives. And so who then are not too concerned with the absolute progress so long as they're making progress. And I think that's a good, a good perspective to have, but making more progress is more fun. I mean, it is. Yeah, absolutely. And like you mentioned, they can kind of compound on

top of one another. And for some people, if they are getting slightly better results at a faster rate, that might be what actually keeps them in the game and keeps them true motivated, or it keeps them on track of their, you know, training and nutrition regimen. So some people are like, oh, well, I don't want to stress another small variable. And there's a line that you kind of need to draw. It's like sometimes making a small adjustment that can lead to a small benefit is worth it. It's essentially worth it. The return of the investment is there because if that's motivating you or if you're getting better results and that's keeping you in the game, then that's something that you should put energy and time into thinking about. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, that's a good point. I would say I agree that anything that increases, I mean, we can skip maybe the kind of fuzzy term motivation, but just go straight to compliance and how that ties into enjoyment. Like if you are enjoying your workouts generally, for example, and if you like your programming, you're probably going to apply yourself a little bit more. And then of course, then that means you're going to be more consistent. You're going to be a lot less likely to skip workouts. And so if you can find little things that can affect how you enjoy your diet, how you enjoy your training and how well you can stick to the plan. They can act like force multipliers, even if they're little things like

what you're talking about. Yeah, for sure. I totally agree. That is something that I've noticed just having interacted with a lot of people regarding supplementation is that a lot of people, especially Legion customers, understand because I've really gone out of my way to help them understand that there are no magic pills, powders, or potions, but if you have the budget and you have the inclination, there are certain things that are worth considering and particularly as it relates to health and wellness and vitality. But I've just found with having spoken to so many people, one of the things that people like about supplements is

they understand that even if they're not doing that much, that little bit that they are adding just helps keep them motivated and helps keep them on track. And it keeps them in the mindset of doing everything they can or everything that they can reasonably do to get the most out of the effort they're putting into following their meal plan and getting in the gym. Yeah, absolutely. So with a pre-workout meal then, what does that look like for you? Let's talk about cutting and maintaining and lean gaining. Specifically, I'm curious how the macros break down for you and what you would generally recommend. And then also food choices. You mentioned a sweet potato. For those of us who may not want to eat a sweet potato at 6am. What else, what other options do we have?

If we wanted to go with something that's lower GI, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So for pre-workout nutrition, something that's interesting is that the quantity of food that I'm eating for my pre-workout and post-workout is almost identical when I'm cutting, maintaining, or bulking. I actually make the largest calorie adjustments from meals furthest away from my workout window. So something I like recommending is I usually recommend around one gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of total body weight. So let's just say you have like a 175 pound male, they would be eating around, you know, have like a 175 pound male, they would be eating around, you know, 80 carbs pre-workout. I like utilizing a combination of a low glycemic starchy source. And I also like combining that with a

fruit source. So when you combine a starchy source, that's going to break down primarily into glucose. And then you combine that with a fruit source that is going to break down into some fructose. You're actually providing your body with two different avenues to essentially absorb those carbohydrates and have blood sugar in your blood to be utilized as fuel and energy while you're exercising. So that's just a really good way to make sure that you're digesting your food kind of in a very efficient manner that you can actually utilize what you're eating while you're in the gym. So a typical pre-workout meal for me, it can be something like oatmeal with maybe a little bit of fat coming from something like walnuts or almond butter or

something like that. And then the fruit source can be something like a banana, as you mentioned, maybe dried raisins, something really small. It's not going to have too much water, not going to have too much fiber as well. If you want some extra nutrients, you could throw some blueberries in your oatmeal and that'd be good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then I just make sure I have a sufficient amount of protein in there too. So I might do like a scoop and a half of whey and that's really it. Make sure I add some salt for basically carbohydrate transport properties of that and making sure that my electrolytes are in there. So I'm staying well hydrated throughout training. And that's really it. But the multiple transportable carbohydrate component is pretty

cool because if you're combining again, a starchy source with a fruit source, it's going to make that digestion process a little bit easier. And then you're going to basically have more stable levels of blood glucose throughout your training session. So the likelihood of you feeling like you're going to crash is going to be a bit lower. That's great. So wow, 80 grams, even when you're cutting, that means it matters to you because if we're talking about just enjoying, well, I mean, maybe not, I guess it depends when you train it. Like for me, if I was, I I've changed my training times over the years. Now I'm back to a, and not early morning. I'm getting in the gym at eight 30 maybe, but I'm not, I'm not particularly hungry.

So if I were cutting and wanting to optimize for experiencing as little hunger as possible, then I probably wouldn't want to have that much carbohydrate before I train. Even if it's going to make my workouts better, I would just say, I'll just have maybe a little bit worse workouts. And really all I'm doing is trying to maintain strength and muscle anyway. But it's been a while. It's been a while since I've had that much carbohydrate. And that number, when you said that it popped into my head, that I actually have talked about that, but I think I was giving it some context saying, basically, if you want to get absolutely everything you can out of pre-workout carbs, you probably want to get up that high. But if you just don't want to have that much food, for example, before you train, then having half of that amount is going to be better probably than

none. Oh yeah. And the timing of it is super important. So like I wouldn't be able to eat, you know, 80 grams of carbs and 45 grams of protein if I'm trying to train in like 45 minutes. But if I'm training them like 90 minutes from now or two hours from now, I definitely could. I am considering it like a hearty meal that I'm digesting. I know a lot of people like to have more of a much smaller meal. I'm still getting an adequate amount of protein, but kind of more of a snack as their pre-workout. And that's where it would probably just be like, again, a scoop or a scoop and a half away with a banana. So maybe you're getting like 25 grams of carbs instead of a full meal, like 80. So the timing is really important. Something that's interesting is when I am in a surplus or in an off season, that same exact meal, the same calories

and macros, I might feel like it's taking two to three hours to digest. Yeah. Just because you're always full. That's the like, if you're actually in a surplus, I mean, for anybody who hasn't done it right, try it at some point. And within a couple of months, just how like after a couple of months of cutting, you're sick of cutting. I mean, even if you're taking diet breaks, like you're ready to eat more food, you can feel it on the flip side. After a couple of months of lean bulking, even if you take diet breaks in the other direction where you're like, all right, it's been six weeks of overfeeding. I'm just going to take a week and chill out a little bit. You eventually to that point where you can't,

you just always full and you half the time feel like you're force feeding yourself and you just can't wait to actually cut. You just can't wait to like cut your calories in half, basically. Exactly. That's where I was two weeks ago, man. So it's, it's funny, like the deeper you get into a cut, you can eat a meal and you'll be hungry like 30 minutes after you ate like a hearty big meal. And you're like, what the heck?

That was a lot of food. And I'm like already hungry. So the timing is going to vary, you know, based upon that context, for sure. That makes sense. Might as well throw this out here. Now it's going to apply to intro workout, which is what we'll get to next and post-workout. But what are your thoughts on carbohydrate supplements? I get asked this fairly often. People will often ask why Legion doesn't create a carbohydrate supplement, which I guess is me tipping my hand as to what I think about them. But I'm curious as to your take. And if you have

a different take, that's totally fine, of course. My, just to quickly summarize, the reason why I don't make one is I don't feel I could honestly promote a carbohydrate supplement in a way that would make people want to buy it. Similar to BCAAs. I mean, BCAAs are absolutely useless. At least a carbohydrate supplement has a use. BCAAs really do not unless you're not eating enough protein or maybe you're like training some obscene amount and why are you doing that anyway kind of thing. But anyway, what are your thoughts on some of these fancier and they're often expensive too, carbohydrate supplements? Yeah. I have utilized some of the fancier ones. Like I've supplemented with highly brand cyclic dextrin

and then I've done the cheaper stuff, just like a simple Gatorade. And then sometimes I'd utilize something like a pomegranate juice actually, because again, I get like 50% glucose, 50% fructose from that. See, that makes more sense to me than paying 40 to $50 a month

for what sometimes is just like dextrose and Molto. For sure. Oh, Molto kills my stomach. I can't have it. It ruins me. So what I do is it depends on the context. So for people that are truly bulking, as you mentioned, you get to this point where like, you just don't want to eat food anymore. So it can just be an easy way to increase your total calories consumed and potentially improve performance a tad, right? So in an off season or someone in a surplus, I can utilize an intra workout just to have them like reduce the size of their actual whole food meals because they're already full. And it's like, it's literally difficult to get the food down for some people. So it can be a tool

then. And if you're digesting food slower, right. And you get in the gym and you feel kind of full and then now you're squatting heavy and the food's coming up and that that's no fun. Yeah. Yeah. Like you'd be way better off waiting longer to make sure that you feel like you've digested your food well, rather than training on a full stomach. I really don't like that feeling. Um, and it's definitely not good for you because when people do that, their digestive system essentially turns off momentarily, like while they're exercising and all the blood is going to their peripheral tissue. And then they still will finish their workout and force another post-workout meal in, even though they're still like not done digesting their pre. So that can be disastrous. And that's part of the reason why some

people get really bloated and just have GI issues and like really poor regularity with bowel movements and stuff in an off season. So yeah, timing your nutrients in that sense can be important. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. For anybody wondering on the timing, let's say they're going to have a smaller meal. Let's say it is just the scoop or scoop and a half of protein powder and a banana before a workout. What are your thoughts on when? Yeah, I would do as short as 30 minutes and no

longer than 60. We know something like a whey protein isolate that should peak in your amino acid content should peak at around just 30 minutes post consumption. So I think you're good to go after, you know, 30 to 60 minutes, you should be fine. Yeah, that makes sense. There is some data on carbohydrate digestion, at least from like liquid sources, you can oxidize more than one gram per minute. So like, let's just say you had 60 grams of carbs pre workout, and you're training in 30 minutes, there's a very high likelihood you still haven't digested 30 out of the 60 grams you consumed, if that makes sense. So yeah, you can kind of use that as a gauge for timing, but just listening to like your biofeedback signals and hungers and fullness

is fine. And the point there with the digestion, right. Is that, okay, we want this stuff to get broken down into glucose. We want it to be circulating in our blood. We don't want it to be in the process of being digested for the reason you just gave. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And again, it's more important while you're cutting because when glycogen levels are very depleted, let's just say, for example, we're training chest and back, like we're doing an upper body workout and we don't have much glycogen stored in our skeletal muscle at the time. Like our body can't take glycogen from our quadriceps and hamstrings and utilize it for

that chest and back workout. So unless you have glucose like floating around in your blood and present, you probably are going to have some sort of performance detriment, if that makes sense, or it's not going to be as optimal as it could be if that fuel source was readily available. So you just want to make sure that there, there is some data that's interesting. Again, this is kind of cherry picking a study, but you know, why not share it anyway? There was a study in 2001 by tarponing and colleagues, and they utilized intra workout carbohydrates around 50 grams while resistance training.

And like they considered them intermediate trainees. And what they saw was this kind of interesting, the groups that were consuming intra workout carbohydrates, they did have an acute reduction in cortisol. And interestingly, after nine weeks of training, it did lead to, there was a correlation between the groups that had lower cortisol and then the changes in hypertrophy to fiber size. So there was a strong correlation there. You know, that's something Lyle McDonald, I remember wrote about some time ago, why then the changes in hypertrophy to fiber size. So there is a strong correlation there. You know, that's something Lyle McDonald, I remember,

wrote about some time ago, why he was recommending. I don't remember if it was intra-workout, but he was talking about including a fair amount of carbohydrate in a post-workout meal, if I remember correctly. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that's just one of those little details that stuck in my mind. And I think he was acknowledging that it is slightly hypothetical given the data, but he thought that there was a good argument for that based on this point in particular, just generally having lower cortisol

levels being good, that that's a more anabolic environment, so to speak. You know, again, how much is it going to help? It's probably really, really small, but if you are trying to cross your T's and dot your I's, it can potentially help. And again, it's just more important based on context. So if you're dieting or you're training fasted, like you already know that your cortisol levels are higher anyway, just from the deficit alone. So yeah, potentially utilizing an intra workout carb can be beneficial in that specific context. So I do utilize them, but the duration of the workout matters too. If you're only training for like 45 minutes, you probably don't need it. That's why I haven't made it. That's why Legion hasn't made one just because again,

given the vast majority of our customers are everyday normal people who are into fitness, but you know, they have three to five hours a week to give to it. Their workouts are 45, maybe 60 minutes. I do have people like you, but just in the minority. So again, if I were to create a product like that, and if I were to promote it, honestly, most of my customers would pass and rightfully so, you know? Yeah, no, I agree. I totally get that. So it just depends, like also, are you doing, you know, more power lifting training or you're doing triples or five repetition work, or are you doing things like 10 plus reps or even up to 20? So that's going to play a role there too. Just to ask on this intro workout point, which is the next thing I wanted to talk about anyway. So segueing off of the carbohydrate supplements, which you were saying in certain instances, you know, if you're bulking and you are sick of eating food, you could make that work. I would say you probably don't need to buy one of the more expensive ones. I don't know if you agree with that, but then as far as intro workout,

if you are, let's say you have a pretty long session coming up and you want to try to make it as productive as possible. You could use one of those supplements, but if you didn't want to use a supplement, what else you had mentioned? Pomegranate juice, for example, other juices or a Gatorade or some other sugar sweetened beverage or. Yeah, for sure. Or some more fruit. Yeah. I've done powdered Gatorade just because it's so cheap. Like I think I got maybe like 90 servings for like $9, like something ridiculous, right? Where it's just powdered dextrose. So I've done powdered Gatorades. And like I mentioned the pomegranate juice, but it's going to vary based on the duration

of my session or the intensity I'm training at based on like repetition goal. So is it more of a strength day or is it more of like a quote unquote metabolic day? But the thing I find interesting is like, if people know that let's just say a supplement like beta alanine or caffeine might help them squeeze out a few more reps, like we know it's good for muscular endurance and they're taking something like that, but they're paying zero attention to their pre-workout nutrition. I still feel like they're missing something there. Like we know that if you have a better meal that's providing you with proper substrate while training, that can also improve your pump the same way citrulline malate can improve your pump. If you're going to do one, then by the same logic, you should consider doing the other and

you should start with the nutrition because of then, of course, you can also accomplish your nutritional goals. You're talking about eating stuff that you may want to eat anyway, like oatmeal. I have fun at my last meal of the day is oatmeal with walnuts. And sometimes I'll put some blueberries in it. Sometimes I'll just eat the blueberries by themselves earlier in the day. And I'll usually put a little bit of maple syrup to sweeten it, some salt and a little bit of milk. And so I'm doing that for my serving of whole grains. And I'm doing that to get in some more fat because I don't eat too much saturated fat. And anyway, so if you are using your pre-workout meal to also just get in, okay, there's a serving of fruit. Cool. You check that box. Maybe you want to get in one more, maybe two

vegetables, probably save for another meal. And those are not going to be very useful for pre-workout, but then you can get in some whole grains. You can get in some healthy fats and, you know, benefit your training. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point you make. Like I just tell most people to try to get, you know, two servings of fruit per day, closer to the minimum and like an easy way to do it. Just okay. One serving pre one serving post boom, that box is kind of checked off. So yeah, I totally agree. It can just be a way to make sure you're taking care of other variables that can provide you with a benefit and checking off other boxes that you're aiming to do. So let's go back to intro workout here. So we have, you spoke a little bit about using carbs. What about protein? And if we're talking, I guess maybe quickly comment on fat as well. Also regarding pre-workout, I don't think we mentioned anything on that. Yeah. So I'll just backtrack super quick to

pre-workout and the fat intake. That's going to heavily depend on how far away your training session is. So let's just say I'm training like three hours or two and a half hours, two hours from that time I'm eating, it's probably going to be a little bit higher in fat just to slow down the digestion and make sure like I'm not on empty by the time I get to the gym, if that makes sense. Whereas if I'm training 60 minutes, it's going to be lower in fat. But generally speaking, that's not a meal where I get too much fat in at all, maybe anywhere from like 5 to 15 grams, you know, nothing too, too heavy there. And then in regards to the intra workout, grams, you know, nothing too, too heavy there. And then in regards to the intra workout,

this also kind of varies based on what I did pre-workout. So if it's someone who's training fasted, like, well, okay, let's say they didn't eat a meal, but they're training for more than 45, 60 minutes and they want fuel coming in intra, that's where I might introduce like 10 grams or maybe 15 grams of a whey isolate. Otherwise, I'm just leaving it alone. Like if you had a sufficient protein feeding 60 minutes ago, 90 minutes ago, I don't see the point of having any additional amino acids coming in because they should be present in your blood anyway. So somebody's training fasted for people wondering like, wait, why would I want to have a little bit of food if I'm trying to train fasted? Sure, sure. So if you're training fasted just because of convenience, like you just want to

wake up, get it done first thing in the morning for time purposes and your schedule. Again, if you're training longer than 45 minutes, we know that having some carbohydrate coming in can provide you with that energy substrate you need to continue to perform well. We also know that resistance training itself, acutely catabolic, like you're actually breaking down muscle protein while lifting. So if you have a little bit of amino acids coming in through a liquid source that can potentially mitigate how much amino acid you're actually using from muscle tissue, since it's going to already be present in your blood at that time. So it can be beneficial in very specific cases, but it's not something I focus too, too much on.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And then obviously post-workout, you want to make sure you are stimulating muscle protein synthesis and really starting that recovery process. Again, since you were resistant training or even not, even if you're doing aerobic exercise, you were doing something that was acutely, you know, catabolic. And that's something that I've talked about and written about. But if somebody listening hasn't heard or seen that before and is surprised to hear, wait a minute, what you're saying training, isn't that an anabolic activity? Isn't that building things up? Well, no, I mean, literally breaking muscle tissue down by training it. Right. And then the anabolism occurs afterward, right? And then so for post

workout, is there anything else to add to intro workout? No, intro, I believe is covered pretty well. I mean, I guess maybe one little thing to note regarding facet training is for anybody wondering, let's say they're doing it and they're combining it. Let's say you have a lean person who's dieting to get really lean and they're combining it with some yohimbine and maybe some caffeine to try to just lose those stubborn fat deposits a little bit faster. And they may be thinking, well, if I were to do 10 or 15 grams of whey, is that going to quote unquote, break my fast? Is that going to raise insulin levels too much to make the yohimbine ineffective for fat loss purposes? Yeah, it's tough to say. So like, again,

let's say you're training for 60 minutes, just for an example. And you've taken yohimbine and caffeine pre-workout to kind of maximize the acute fat oxidation, you can still potentially introduce that intra-workout like midway through your session. So it's not like something you're consuming from set number one. And another thing to consider is let's just say that's 10 or 15 grams of whey and even 20 grams of carbohydrate. You're not drinking that all at once. So like if you're sipping on it, you literally might be consuming like two grams of carbs and two grams of protein, like per sip or whatever it may be. So it's hard to say if that's gonna quote unquote,

break your fast. But obviously, the amino acids within whey protein are very insulinogenic. So it can definitely spike insulin. But that's more so like if you're consuming a whole bolus at once, it's hard to say if you're kind of just sipping it throughout the end of the 30 minutes of the workout, it's hard to say. Yeah. And ironically, many people who train fasted will sip on BCAAs, which of course they do affect insulin levels as well. We're talking about a small effect, but you would also see a small effect from a small amount of whey. And even if you add carbs, sip on. But yeah, let's move to post-workout now and lay out the couple of scenarios here of, okay, somebody has eaten before they've worked out.

How should they approach it if they haven't? Let's say they trained fasted. Maybe they did have some whey. Maybe they didn't. Or BCAAs or HMB or maybe they didn't. bcaas or hmb or maybe they didn't and yeah i'll let you break it down also if you approach it differently when cutting versus maintaining and lean bulking and so forth sure for sure so i'll kind of start when it's of the highest priority and that would be is if you trained fasted and you did nothing intra-workout so you're still you know quote unquote on empty that's when your post your post workout meal is going to be kind of most important, you already

went into the training session, perhaps in a quote unquote, catabolic state, and then further underwent an activity that is again, breaking muscle protein down and stuff. So that's when it's going to be most important. In that scenario, I would go with a fast acting protein or fast digesting protein like a whey isolate. However, if you did have a pre-workout meal and you potentially even utilized intro as well, that's when that post-workout meal is going to be not as important in regards to getting it in like immediately post-workout. And that's also another example of when you may not need something like a whey isolate

post-workout and you can just stick to whole food that's going to digest a little bit slower. So all of that definitely matters. In regards to the amount, the amount of protein is again, just going to vary based on the size of the individual and how much lean body mass they have. But for most people, it's usually anywhere from 25 to 45 grams of whey protein is going to do the job. And then if you're having whole food, you actually generally need to increase that protein a bit. So it might be

anywhere from like 30 to 55 grams of protein from whole food, just because there's generally less leucine in like whole food animal products compared to a whey isolate. By gram of weight, basically. Yeah. Even by gram of just like gram for gram, right? So let's take something like, for me, for example, I know that about 35 grams of weight isolate maximizes my protein synthetic response because of the amount of leucine that's in that. Is that around three grams or so, or is it more? For me, it's 3.5 grams. There's a specific number. It's very nerdy and it's super advanced,

but it's 0.045 grams of leucine per kilogram of body weight. So that's out of- I like it. It's super nerdy. Maximum attention to detail. Yeah, that's from Stuart Phillips' lab. So as an example, 175 pound male would need 3.5 grams of leucine. 120 pound female would need 2.4 grams of leucine. So that's going

to change how much weight they may need. Yeah. And that's where you get that range, right? So the woman would be fine with the lower end of the range, whereas the man would want toward the top. For sure. For sure. So usually it's like a scoop and a half for most people, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think I've generally told people, I think I've actually just split it by gender. Actually. I was like, women, you can be in the twenties and then men, you might as well just be in 30 to 40. Just keep it simple. Exactly. Exactly. And it's interesting. Cause like 35 grams of protein from let's just say chicken breast or something is actually going to have less leucine than 35 grams of protein from weight plus, you know, so it's different. Right. Yeah. That makes sense.

Super technical, super detailed, nerdy stuff that the gen pop does not need to stress about, but yeah, that's almost just for fun, but it's worth saying. Yeah. I focus on, you know, these super competitive bodybuilders that are really like trying to basically do everything possible in their power. And then what about carbs and fat? What are your thoughts on that in the post-workout scenario? So carbs, they're like things that are going to digest really quick and easily, especially if I'm having a large amount of them. And is that something you recommend? I'm curious. Yeah, I do.

I do. Again, there's some data there, whether you want to look at the data on cortisol, there's actually a study that looked at like really large carbohydrate and protein overfeedings that saw some greater gains in lean body mass accumulation over a nine week period. Again, if you kind of cherry pick your data,

there is some stuff pointing in that direction. Insulin may play a role as well. If I remember, actually, I'm thinking back to Lyle's explanation and he was also talking about just that if we're talking about muscle building and creating an anabolic environment, we generally will want insulin levels to be higher, not lower. Yes, totally agree. And it's going to improve the amino acid uptake within the muscle. And I believe helps suppress muscle breakdown rates as well. Yeah. Or further prolong synthetic rates and or mitigate breakdown later on. Yeah. So, there are things that point in that direction where it can be advantageous to a certain degree.

that direction where it can be advantageous to a certain degree. And as far as post-workout goes, what are, I guess you did summarize, is there anything else you would add to, or maybe just give people an idea of how important this is? I mean, protein, it's pretty clear. That's important. You need to get that in sooner rather than later if you didn't eat before, or maybe it had been hours before you trained. carbs. Do you consider that as important as protein or less or a lot less? Yeah, I definitely wouldn't consider it as important as protein. There are so many factors that can change the, the magnitude of how important this is. So just a really quick example, if you were doing full body training quite regularly, like if that if you're on a full body split, I would say it's potentially more important. So let's just say

you trained full body today, and you know, you're going to train full body tomorrow, getting in those carbohydrates to re synthesize the muscle glycogen to make sure you're ready for the next day, that's going to be more important compared to someone who's doing like a bro split or push pull legs, like, hey, you did legs today, and you're ready for the next day. That's going to be more important compared to someone who's doing like a bro split or a push-pull legs. Like, hey, you did legs today and you're not going to hit legs for another four to six days. You don't need to worry about the muscle glycogen, like filling up as quickly as possible because

you're going to be eating for the next four to six days and it is going to be refilled by the next workout. So that can play a role. And then if you ever do like two a days where maybe you're doing cardio in the morning and training at night or training in the morning, cardio at night, that makes the carbohydrate component of that post-workout meal more and more important. Yep. And is there something special about that post-workout carbohydrate meal versus carbs eaten later or at other times in the day is resynthesis

more efficient at that time? Yeah, it is. So you are, you know, slightly more sensitive to both glycogen resynthesis as well as protein synthesis. So there is data showing that if you have protein by itself, you will basically get a very significant protein synthetic response. But if you add carbohydrates to it, it can be slightly greater. And then interestingly, if you had carbohydrates by itself compared to carbohydrates plus protein, the glycogen resynthesis is actually greater when it's combined with protein, which doesn't make much sense to me from a mechanistic standpoint, but that's what the data consistently shows is you're actually re-synthesizing more glycogen when combining that post-workout meal with protein,

which is really, really right. Like if you have a hundred grams of carbs versus a hundred grams of carbs and 30 grams of protein, you're going to restore more glycogen when you had that protein there, even though you're not necessarily using it for glycogen. So it's quite interesting. in there, even though you're not necessarily using it for glycogen. So it's quite interesting. Didn't know that. Learned something. I think that is enough context for carbs. And as for the amount, you may have already given this, but I don't remember. So if you have, could you just give it again? How much carb do you recommend? It can be a little bit more than the pre. So I said one gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight for pre. For post, it can be one gram up to 1.5 grams. So for that 175 pound male, it can be like 80 grams

all the way up to 120 grams of carbs post-workout. And it's been so long since I've done that. But I think back to many years ago, I was working out with a good friend of mine at the time. And so we were doing bodybuilding, two-hour bro split type workouts. And we were in our 20s and invincible and just sit in the gym and just pound yourself with endless volume. Not very efficient, but effective if you're just willing to do it long enough, I guess. And so then we would go to this chicken place and eat probably something. So there'd be a pile of chicken, a pile of rice. So probably something similar to what you're talking about. A lot of fat in there as well. But I remember how good it would feel actually within, you know, I don't know, 30 minutes

or so of finishing. It was almost like a slightly euphoric feel. And I haven't felt that in a long time. Maybe that's the consequence of aging. But also I haven't eaten like that in a long time. Maybe that's the consequence of aging, but also I haven't eaten like that in a long time. I have just tended to move toward more simpler, just lower calorie pre and post-workout meals that don't produce that extremely.

It's not just satiation. Again, there's almost like a little bit of a food high or something. And particularly post-workout, like I wouldn't experience that otherwise. You know, if I just went at a random time and ate all that food it'd be like oh that was good but not it's different for sure it's like your taste buds are heightened at that time or something but it's also like sedative like you had a long tiring workout you have this huge bolus of food you're like all right it's time to lay on the couch and really quick like some of

those quick uh to digest carbohydrate sources that I like consuming are usually things like a cereal, like a rice cereal, maybe something like cream of rice, or then potentially something that's a processed snack. So that can be anything like a pop tart or a rice crispy treat or something that's a super easy to digest. And again, that varies. Like if you're bulking and you're having a hard time getting in all your food, then you want something that is not filling at all. And then if you're cutting, you're bulking and you're having a hard time getting in all your food, then you want something that is not filling at all. And then if you're cutting, you're going to want something way more wholesome. So that can be like your white rice with broccoli and chicken just to make sure you're staying fuller for a longer period of time. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And as far as fat goes, I'm assuming it's, there's no body comp or performance related reason.

It's just kind of do it makes sense for what you're doing. Like you mentioned, if you're cutting and you want to stay fuller longer, you may want to throw some butter or some sort of oil or something in that rice and chicken and broccoli just to slow down the digestion a little bit. Yeah, for sure. You know, time of day, if this is the last meal of the day and you train that, you know, 7 p.m. and you're eating at 9 p.m i'll probably have more fats in there but this is in the middle of the day or in the morning it'll probably be lower in fat and i'll kind of save my fats for something more delicious later on in the

day makes sense and i guess supplements i'm trying to think if there's anything i mean obviously you'd say sure if you're going to take creatine you might as well take it after your workout i would think right not that it probably doesn't make that big of a difference either way, but there's some evidence that it might be slightly more effective than that. For sure. Especially when combined with carbohydrate. Actually, I'd say that's what a lot of the data suggests is, you know, and it doesn't have to be a carbohydrate supplement by any means, but hey, you're having your post-workout creatine and then you're eating a post-workout meal that's pretty high in carb,

that's probably just going to increase the likelihood of that creatine actually being stored in the muscle as phosphocreatine. And that's probably due to insulin mentioned the same way you mentioned insulin before having that anabolic, you know, response. That's probably slightly due to that. Yeah that makes sense and is there anything else that regarding supplementation or anything with post-workout that you haven't mentioned that you think you should no that's that's really it yeah it's getting that sufficient and that's that's all i can think of that's all we've covered everything on my little outline and more so that's great yeah awesome awesome cool well uh if you don't have anything else. So that's great. Awesome. Awesome. Cool. Well, if you don't have

anything else to add, that's still kind of bouncing around in your head. I think we can just wrap it up here. This was great. A lot of good information for sure. One last thing I'll say, it's, you know, just in regards to meal frequency, not necessarily like meal timing, we can briefly touch on, you know, having fewer meals per day, larger, fewer meals per day can be more. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, let's do that. Ironically, actually I'm looking, I'm like, oh, that is in the outline. Uh, yes, please. For sure. So, you know, a lot of people look at meal frequency in the context of dieting only. So you go back multiple years, you still kind of see this touted today where it's like, oh, you need to eat six meals per day. And we know that's not true by any means. We actually know that the more frequently

you eat, the hungrier you're going to be. So it can actually make dieting more challenging if you're forcing yourself to have more meals just because someone said it was optimal when it's not. Which by the way, is what happens. I'm sure it happens to you and it has happened to a lot of people. That's what happens to me when I lean bulk. I'm generally hungrier lean bulking than cutting. It's not if I'm deep into a cut, but I've noticed that, that in the beginning of a lean bulk until I reached the phase of getting sick of eating at all. But for the first bit, I'm generally hungrier, like when I increase my calories than when I go into a cut. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I actually eat more meals in my surplus and I eat less meals intentionally when I'm in my deficit to kind of combat the

hunger and also to improve my appetite because I have an issue getting in my food when I am bulking. So I actually do five to six meals when I'm in a surplus and I do four meals when I'm in a deficit. But anyways, go ahead with the meal frequency point you were making. Yeah. So again, everyone always views it in the context of dieting. And we understand that the more meals you eat, because you are going to be, that's actually going to increase your appetite and make you hungrier. That can decrease your ability to adhere or your compliance. So you need to find that sweet spot that works for you.

And I think it's important for people to kind of experiment with a different amount of meals per day based on their schedule, their lifestyle and their preferences. I really don't recommend anyone ever having less than three protein feedings per day. I do think that there is something there where there is an advantage to having multiple feedings compared to just one to two and getting an extremely large bolus of protein and calories like the intermittent fasting crew might do. But again, there's no need to try to force yourself to get six meals in per day. If A, it's not good for your lifestyle and your schedule, and then B, it's just making

you hungrier and decreasing your compliance. So just something to think about. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. If there's nothing else on meal frequency, I mean, I have nothing to add on that. I think you said it well, and that's one of the more negotiable aspects of all of this, right? For sure. For sure. Yeah. That's really all I have. Generally speaking, just evenly distributing your protein feedings also makes sense in general. So have, you know, a meal that's 80 grams of protein and then another meal that's only 20 grams of protein.

I'm probably better off kind of spreading that relatively evenly. Nothing you need to nitpick and go crazy about, but it's definitely not good if you're having like no protein in your breakfast and a huge bolus of protein in your dinner. Yeah. Probably something to be said for the timing too, right? It'd be kind of silly to eat. Let's say you are just, you're just eating 40 grams per serving. Keep it simple, 40 or 50, if it's all food, whatever. And then let's say

you have one serving and then two hours later you have another serving and then you wait six hours to have the third serving. You might be better off trying to put a couple of hours in between each. Would you agree? Yeah, for sure. For sure. And if you're eating too frequently and you're having a large bolus of protein, you might be so satiated that getting in that next meal, if it's too close from your previous meal, you're not going to even want to eat or, you know, getting it down is going to be more difficult. So yeah, definitely experiment too with how much time in between meals is going to be best for you. Great. Well, thanks again for taking the time, Chris, and let's wrap up with where people can find you and your work. And if there are any

specific new and exciting things or just interesting things of yours that you want them to know about, let's let them know. Awesome. Thanks, Mike. I really appreciate it. You guys can find me primarily on Instagram for just up to date or most recent updates on myself, my journey and educational content. But you can also go over to schoolofgains.com. That's gains with a Z. It's a little bit more anabolic. So there's a great science fact. Hashtag science. Yeah. That's the site where you'll find a lot of my research publications, a lot of free articles and resources, some training programs, nutrition programs and stuff like that, as well as coaching on there. And that's really it guys. I'm working

on a lot of cool things at the university of Tampa right now with different research projects that are in the works. So I'm excited to share that as time goes on and the work gets done. So yeah, just stay tuned. I really appreciate you having me on Mike and I hope you guys enjoyed the episode and learned something cool today. Yeah, I look forward to the next one. Thanks again. All right. Well, that's it for this episode.

I hope you enjoyed it and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did and you don't mind doing me a favor, please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to me from in whichever app you're listening to me in, because that not only convinces people that they should check out the show, it also increases search visibility and thus it helps more people find their way to me and learn how to get fitter, leaner, stronger, healthier, and happier as well. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then simply subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any new stuff. And if you didn't like something about the show, please do shoot me an email at mike at muscleforlife.com, just muscle, F-O-R, life.com, and share your thoughts on how I can do this better. I read everything

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