Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Dan John on “Easy Strength” For Quick, Efficient Workouts That Really Work

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

In this podcast, I interview Dan John, and we chat all about his concept of “easy strength.” Easy strength is a style of training Dan writes about at length in his latest book, Attempts: Essays in Fitness, Health, Longevity and Easy Strength, which I highly recommend. We’ll get more into the nitty gritty details in the podcast, but “easy strength” is all about effective workouts done with key exercises that you can get done quickly. This gets you in and out of the gym quickly, giving you more time to recover and train for your sport. The best part is you’ll get stronger without beating up your muscles and joints, which means less soreness and joint pain. If you’re skeptical, I understand, but Dan isn’t exactly the new kid on the block. In fact, he has quite the resume—he has competed in the Highland Games, written more than 14 books, and coached athletes and weightlifters for over 40 years now. As you can imagine, he has seen and heard it all, and knows a thing or two about coaching athletes. In this episode, Dan and I discuss . . . The benefits of not “destroying” yourself in the gym Exercise as practice The importance of not missing reps How to program your workouts and progressively overload with “easy strength” And more . . . So, if you want to learn how to incorporate easy strength workouts to get stronger without beating yourself up or spending hours in the gym every day, listen to this episode and let me know your thoughts! Timestamps: 15:46 - What is easy strength? 28:57 - What does an easy strength program look like? 35:11 - How do you progressively overload? 39:44 - What is "easy" as a percentage of 1RM? 44:56 - How much weight do you add to the bar? Mentioned on the Show: Books by Mike Matthews: https://legionathletics.com/products/books/

Hey there, and welcome to another episode of Muscle for Life. I'm Mike Matthews. Thank you for joining me today. And hey, quickly, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast, and if you want to make sure that you don't miss any new episodes, go ahead and quickly subscribe to the show in whatever app you are listening in, because then you will get notifications when the new episodes go live. I guess it depends on the app. Minimally, it will download every new episode and let you know there is a new episode to listen to, and it'll help boost the rankings of the show, which is great for me and great for others because then they can find it more easily. All right, so in today's episode, I interview a fun guest, somebody who I've had on the show before and who I like talking with, and that is Dan John.

And we talk specifically about something he calls easy strength, which I came across in one of his books called Attempts. And we'll get into all of the details in this interview, but basically, easy strength is all about effective strength training with minimal time and minimal effort. Easy strength. You get in, you get out, and you don't have to push yourself nearly as hard as you may think. You do have to work hard, of course. You have to lift heavy weights and you have to have enough volume, but it is not your typical strength training program where you think of people squatting and deadlifting until they start bleeding from their eyeballs. Like for example, in Dan John's easy strength method, you never even come close to muscular failure. Every set is supposed to feel easy and you can train like that

and gain strength and gain muscle. And of course that is easier on your body. It's easier to recover from. It's easier on your joints. So you're going to have less muscle soreness, less joint pain. It's interesting. And there's no question that it works. And it's something that I really haven't written or spoken about this very sub-maximal approach to gaining muscle and strength. And yes, it does sound a little bit too good to be true, but it is backed by really decades of anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure how much scientific evidence there is specifically for this type of training. Although I know there is a bit of literature on the usefulness of sub-max training where, again, you don't push close to muscular failure. And so that's what you're going to learn about in this episode.

to muscular failure. And so that's what you're going to learn about in this episode. Also, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one bestselling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, and Thinner, Leaner, Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever. And you can find them on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes and Noble stores. And I should also mention that you can get any of the audio books 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And I should also mention that you can get any of the audiobooks

100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And this is a great way to make those pockets of downtime like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning more interesting, entertaining, and productive. And so if you want to take Audible up on this offer, and if you want to get one of my audiobooks for free, just go to www.buylegion.com and sign up for your account. So again, if you appreciate my work and if you want to see more of it, and if you want to learn time-proven and evidence-based strategies for losing fat, building muscle, and getting healthy, and strategies that work for anyone and everyone, regardless of age or circumstances, please do consider picking up one of my best-selling books, Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women, and The Shredded Chef for my favorite fitness-friendly recipes. Hey, Dan. Welcome back to my podcast. Well, thanks so much. How are things?

Hey, Dan, welcome back to my podcast. Well, thanks so much. How are things? Fine, fine. Getting ready to move. I'm moving to Florida. That's happening in a month. Be sure you bring some exotic animals that will breed rapidly.

Okay. That seems to be part of what we guests do when they come to Florida. Yeah. Maybe a new type of Python or something like that. Yes. That's what the state needs. Yes. Bringing raptors or something, you know? Yeah.

Anyway, so I wanted to, I recently read your book, Attempts, and I liked it. I'm going to cover it. And I like to do book club episodes. I do it like once a month. I just talk about a book I like and share some takeaways and stuff.

And there are quite a few essays in there and quite a few of your ideas that I liked. And to talk about all of them would take a long time. But I wanted to hone in on this easy strength programming, this easy strength approach to getting strong because it's unique, and it's something that most- It's funny you say that because it's not. It is the way people trained almost forever.

It's interesting, you know, I also have a master's in history. So you kind of get a little, you get a little weird when you have, when you study history, you know, up until the, until bodybuilding took over what we call the steno symbol of weight training. This is how people train. And this is how, if you read George Hackenschmidt's The Way to Live, if you read the early works of Cerruti, it's Tom DeLorme who comes up with this idea of sets and reps during World War II. So the idea of sets and reps, as we know now, is relatively new and it really wasn't accepted. I've got the,

they did a study on the Mr. Britain contest of 1951 or something like that. And the bulk of the guys at the Mr. Britain contest of 1951 were still training like strongmen. And the idea is, is that this idea of blitzing and terrorizing your triceps and all this post-pumping iron stuff. By the way, I mean, I was at the premiere of Pumping Iron, so it's not like this isn't my first day. And certainly I have great respect for Arnold and his impact. But this idea that, okay, what steno symbol is, it's when a phrase or word has a single meaning. If I say I'm lifting weights to my grandson, Danny, he'll show me a double bicep because that's, if you talk about basketball, if you talk to a team of basketball players, we're

going to start doing more weight training. They're going to start talking about how to look good on the beach. This is all relatively new in our field. The idea that you would go into just, you would practice getting stronger is the tradition. So easy strength is, I always explain it like, it's like learning how to type. You know, I got a keyboard here. If I just grabbed your finger and smashed it on A, A, A, A, A, A, A to failure, you wouldn't be a better typist.

Your left pinky would be exhausted. But, and so the traditional way of getting strong is the same way you learned it to type, play the guitar. It's practiced over time. And then the nervous system adapts. And then after a while, those adaptions cause a stress in the body because of the load is getting bigger. And then that beautiful phrase that Rob Wolf says, and then the hormonal cascade happens. And that's when you develop hypertrophy and those other qualities.

And that's just a, it's a different way of looking at exercise, right? Something as practice as another type of athletic activity, again, versus the bombing blitzing of muscle groups. And one thing I like about that view is it puts you into the longer term kind of framework, as opposed to, again, just trying to get in the gym and destroy yourself day after day and week after week. And if after a month of that, or after six months of that, you haven't gained some predetermined amount of muscle or strength that somebody on Instagram said you can gain if you do it that way, well, then maybe you should just stop. Well, it's a bunch of crap. And I've been lifting weights since 1965. And if I've been blitzing and bombing since 1965, I don't know

if I'd have a joint that still worked. And what bothers me about these Instagram clowns and the crap you see, and thankfully magazines are disappearing. Sadly, the internet took over, but it's this nonsense. And I'll hear people say, someone critiqued one of my books by saying, that's not how Mr. Olympia trains. It's like, well, if you want to train like Mr. Olympia, your pharmacy bill is going to be more than probably most people listening to rent. And you're going to have to make a lot of life decisions to bring, to have that money. That might just be your GH bill alone. Yeah. And so this idea that, and then when you,

and the problem is, you know, that's why I love track and field and swimming so much is you got these two sports that you can see, you can see when anything you've added works or doesn't work and you can just see it. I mean, if the discus goes farther, you jump higher, you run the hurdles faster, whatever we did, even if it's stupid worked. And that my knock on hypertrophy work for athletes and even general population is that, you know, the old phrase, and it's, it's a bit sexist, but I still like it looks like Tarzan plays like Jane. And that is, I think a real truism. You know, I'm still, I'm 64.

I'm still the person people call when they want to move a couch. I'm 64 and I still win Highland games with the opens. And it's because these guys, God bless them. You know, they're training like bodybuilders to do an explosive throwing sport. And it's just wrong. And the truth is when you're in the world of sports you know yeah your body uh there's a phrase from charlie francis looks looks right flies right your body will i mean if you want a great body gentle listener here's what i want you to do i want you to train like an olympic 400

meter runner uh don't worry about diet don't worry about any of that stuff when you run 400 meters as fast as you can you don't have to worry about what you had for lunch because lunch will be on the inside track at the finish line. That's where lunch will be. Probably the second 400 meters, that's where breakfast from two days ago will be. And trust me, you're going to lean out because that's the adaptions your body will have. So when I look at this stuff online, I'm always wondering why they just don't the simpler way. Um, go to the, if you want to look lean and all this stuff, go train like a 400 meter runner. You'll you'll lean out. I may, I may prefer just following a meal plan. Uh, well, but however you do it, it's, uh, yeah. So we're in a strange, we're in a strange time in the fitness industry. You know I thought you couldn't get worse than what we had in the eighties and nineties,

but you know, my old friend, you think it's worse now? Really? Oh yeah. I mean, so, so the, the evidence-based movement has grown. I'll say a lot more people. I think just everyday people understand, let's say energy balance and, and they understand macronutrients and why you need enough protein. I think a lot more people understand that now, maybe I'm wrong. Then again, you've been in this game a lot longer than I have. It just seems like you've been to Dolly Parton land. Um, what does that even mean?

Go to any amusement park and then get back to me on what you just said. Yeah. I was at Disney World, I don't know, six months ago or something. And what are the French? It wasn't. What do the French come back when they get back from Disney World? What do they talk about? They talk about this thing called the balloon people,

the people who are so inflamed that they, they begin to look like balloons. So no, I don't disagree with you. I'm just. No, but I think that's different though, that I'm just saying like fitness people, quote unquote, people who at least care a little bit about this stuff. That would be true. Yeah. The, the role, I mean, honestly though, I mean, if you ate like what grandma would have told you, you'd probably be better, you know, eat, eat veggies, eat, you know, eat your protein, eat veggies, drink water.

Eat like an adult as you like to say, right? There's an adjective before the word adult, but yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Which, which is, uh, I mean, again, that that's even now the, the evidence-based way to eat is basically that. It's get most of your calories from this nutritious stuff that you basically prepare yourself, eat your vegetables, eat your fruits, eat your legumes, seeds, whole grains, eat your protein. And you have a lot of foods to choose from. Don't listen to the people who say that you can't eat potatoes or sweet potatoes or that things have to be gluten-free, blah, blah, blah.

can't eat potatoes or sweet potatoes or that things have to be gluten-free, blah, blah, blah. So again, in my experience, just with people, again, I would say who care enough to work out at least a couple of times per week, right. And actually attempt to follow something of a sensible eating regimen for those people. I think, I think conditions are a bit better now, at least than when I even started doing anything in the fitness space, which I guess was 2012, but I may be wrong. Yeah, it's well, and you also came at a time where it's a little bit easier to pick and choose. You know, back in the day when there was only strength and health magazine and muscle development from York and then all American athlete and muscle and fitness from Weider, one sold supplements with a soy base and the other one sold supplements with a soy base. And that was the difference in those two companies. And it's nowadays you have a lot, you know, and I do think some of the supplement companies are a lot more responsible now. And I think, but then the next day I'll read about something else. I'm like, oh, here, how did we get back to that? You know? Yeah. Supplementation is its own thing. I don't

know how much that space has, but it's the engine that drives most of the nutrition in the income from supplements. You know, it's like I tell people, you know, I'm not going to get a lot of money telling you to eat kimchi, oatmeal, you know, broccoli, you know, get more sleep, drink more water. I'm not going to make a ton of money on that. But, and gentle listener, today only I have a special on you know super super rip guy 5000 you know it's just real hard to oh you can get rid of the vegetables if you take if you take my greens supplement that the greens you got 72 servings actually you actually you get an entire week's worth of your greens in one scoop i mean that's it's it. How simple is that? Oh my God. I don't know who, whoever came up with that. Oh, the taste of this stuff. Marketers.

Oh, so bad, but let's continue. Sorry. I didn't mean to segue. Yeah. So coming back to, to easy strength. So, so what style of training is that then, if it's not your traditional bodybuilding? Okaybuilding okay okay i'm uh again i'm coming from uh i'm a newbie in your eyes in terms of how much time i've been in this space um but but it's not for a lot of the listeners when they think of quote-unquote traditional so they're thinking of bodybuilding training or even strength work if they're if if they're thinking of strength training they're going to probably think of ripito stuff they're going to think of five training, they're going to probably think of Ripito's stuff. They're going to think of five by five. They're going to think of Wendler's stuff. So what is, what is easy strength? Well, easy strength is an idea obviously been around a long time. And, and, and really it's

where it really boomed is that Charles Staley used to have a thing called the bootcamp and he invited speakers come down. Well, one year his speaker canceled just a few days before. So Charles, a friend of mine told Charles to invite me and I went down. Well, this actually started my career, but Pavel Satsulin and I sat down after and we're talking and he said, you know, how busy are you? And I said, I'm, you know, I'm working two full-time jobs. At the time I was an administrator and a college professor and two full-time jobs. I got time, I was an administrator and a college professor. And two full-time jobs. I got two daughters at home.

Balls are in the air. And he said, for the next 40 days, pick five lifts. Never go to failure. Never do more than 10 total reps. So that's three sets of three. Two sets of five is the standard. And by the way, this- In a single workout? This cutting edge workout is exactly what you'll get in this book here from 1962, the Sears barbell and dumbbell exercise program from Ted Williams.

It's funny how he told me the program is that, you know, I've heard this before. It's the way people train when I was young. And I followed it to the absolute T. The key is this. For example, one of the exercises I picked was incline bench press. And so I started off with two sets of five with 165, which is air. And I kept doing that until, like he said, it felt so light, it was silly. So I jumped to 185. I jumped a week or so later, I'm at 205, a week or so later up 255, all two sets of five with that exercise. And then one day by myself in my garage and it's winter December. So it's freezing here in Utah. I benched a 315 for a double, no spotter with a car at my feet

that if I, a brand new car, if I missed the lift. So my incline bench had been only 300, but I did 315 for a double. So 15 pound jump in my PR for a double easily could have gotten more, but I racked it because I didn't want to do any damage to myself or the car. And then I thought to myself, when I put the bar in, it's like, okay, this is 22 days. So basically we're looking at what week five-ish because I lift five days a week. And I had added 15 pounds to a lift and I'm not some guy who just showed up, you know, I'm pretty experienced lifter. I was an international level thrower at the time. And I'm like, this is too good to be true. Many of the workouts, I did a workout one time on the light day where I was boiling a pot of water for something for dinner. I put the pot of water on when it came to a boil, the workout was over

five exercises. That was a light day. So it was just the one set of 10, you know, just kind of a tonic workout. And I thought to myself, you know, and then that season I go out and I'm throwing the discus and I'm doing Highland games and people keep coming up and going, Hey man, what are you on? And I'm like, I'm on nothing. This is the workout I'm doing. And I would tell them literally line by line, point by point on a napkin at a restaurant, going to the exact numbers I'm using. And they're like, no, really? What are you on? No, nothing. You're working out two hours a day in the weight room and I'm working out 15 minutes and I'm throwing farther than you, you know, at least show some intellectual integrity and

think through what I just said. And they can't because of the same problems. I guarantee the bulk of your listeners are going to have. The problem is if something easier comes by and it makes you go, wait a second, so I can do less and get more, it makes you very angry and literally unable to almost hear. We're rightfully skeptical. I mean, it does sound too good to be true, right? Yeah, but if you were to tell me that you're going to build an elite athlete program by following Mr. Universe's program, and they're going to be elite American football players, they would look good with their uniforms off, but they get destroyed on the field of play. And when these guys show up at Highland games and they brag, they wear that stupid, where they take the shirt and they roll it up the edges. They do that thing and they show up and they're, what do when someone says when they ask me what i bench that's when i feel oh this is gonna be a fun day beating this guy um i think the key distinction there for the

listeners is we're talking about um aesthetics versus athletics well very this is true too like i mean you're not gonna build i i would would say, and you correct me if you think I'm wrong, but, um, if you, if your primary goal is to achieve a certain body composition in a look, and that requires gaining about as much muscle as is genetically available to you, you're not going to get there doing 15 minute workouts. It's just not going to happen. I wouldn't agree with that, but I'll just January 1st, I weighed 250 and I decided to get down to 102 kilos for this meat. Three months later, I weighed 220. I lost 30 pounds in three months, not dieting.

And what I did for my workouts was easy strength for Olympic lifting, which is, oh, I don't know, three sets of three in the snatch, five singles in the clean and jerk, and then went for a walk. Oh, I don't know. Three sets of three in the snatch, five singles in the clean and jerk, and then went for a walk. I'm probably in the best shape I've been in since the 2007, eight seasons. And I'm training. Well, the walk, you know, okay.

The walk takes a half an hour, 45 minutes, but the weight just poured off of me and I feel better. When people ask me about the best way to get, you know, one of the things when you go to an Olympic lifting meet, just about every Olympic lifter, it looks as better than most bodybuilders. And that's true. Everyone thinks super heavies, but those guys never do more. Nowadays, it's rare for an Olympic lifter to do just anything but singles. So it is possible, but you got, but again, the steno symbol is when we have a word or phrase that has one meaning. So when the bulk of your audience is listening, they're thinking body composition. I've heard people say, well, I want to look good naked, and then I'll follow up, why do you want to look good naked?

Because I want to have sex, and I keep telling them, well, if you had any kind of dental hygiene, you learn how to dance and you learn to talk to people you're interested in, like human persons, you'd probably do better anyway, versus, you know, looking good naked, you know? So, well, I just think you can, but I mean, it's probably easier to get abs though. Then all those other things, you could change your personality or just get some abs yeah but if you're showing your abs off at a dance floor that's good for you and and and good luck on that marriage long term uh good luck good luck when the life hits you my marriage is that that happens later you know at my cow old you know. Mike, how old are you now? 36. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

36, been lifted. How many years have you been lifting? I started when I was 17. Okay. I didn't know what I was doing, though, for the first seven years was I bought bodybuilding magazines. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And, you know, I did the, they were always body part splits and tons of volume. And obviously it worked to some degree because anything works in the beginning for six weeks until it doesn't work anymore. So after 35, I don't mind traditional bodybuilding for anybody. I think there's real value because after 35, it just seems like the body conspires to get rid of lean body mass. It wants to get fat and it wants to lose muscle. It just does. And I, and what you'll find over the next few years is that, um, you probably had, okay, you probably have this much wiggle room when you're 35, you got this much at 45, you got this much at 55 and my age, uh, the wiggle, the wiggle is out of the wiggle room. And so you better show up at 64 in pretty

good shape because it's real hard to move from there. But you probably at your age now, and if I'm wrong, you could probably have, well, I got to be careful of this. One of the best ways for people to lose weight, I think, is to go on an all-inclusive vacation to Jamaica. Sleep in, hang around the sun all day, go to those buffets and eat all you can. If you weigh before you leave and you weigh when you come home, very often people lose weight on those trips because they lose that stress held, the inflammation of life. You know, the boss, the commute, the kid, the thing, and the masks, the thing. And when they let that go for a week, the body responds by going, ah. But you could probably make some bad cake decisions and get away with it, right? And 10 years from now, you can make a cake

bad decision. And then, you know, 10 years later, maybe half a cake, you know, and that's just, and so, yeah. So don't think I'm against anything, but when you're talking about easy strength, truth is most people literally cannot hear you. They just cannot hear you. And I think strength is the most important quality a strength coach can do. I mean, it's in the name because what we say, especially in the kettlebell community is that absolute strength is the glass and all the other qualities are the liquid in the glass. I've gone out with some of the best female athletes in the world. And one of the interesting things is they'll be drinking, they'll sit next to you and drink a pitcher of beer.

And then the next day you see them walking past and it's like, well, cause they're, they are, their glass is a keg and they've got, they can, they can get away with a lot. Some people, because they're not strong enough, they have a shot glass of strength. And they got to keep an eye on every drop that goes into that shot glass. I think as we age, we go from keg to pitcher to drinking glass to highball glass to shot glass, the high ball glass, the shot glass. And I think that's, that's why it's so important that you have a tool like easy strength in your, in your coaching pocket, because if I'm working with a traditional older client, any in my world, anybody older than 22 is old in sports. Okay. Once you're 22, you're ancient, you know, that's, you know, the clock she is ticking.

That's a fun phrase to say. So, so when I'm working with an aging athlete, I always keep about, oh, I would say two to four months a year as an easy strength protocol. And then two, three to six week kind of ramp up programs, your bikini program, whatever, you know what I'm saying? Your three week body comp program, your six week, you know, that whatever, whatever you do from whatever you call your January to second week of February program, your, your May bikini, whatever, whatever those, but I do think in between those getting stronger gives you a better, uh, ramp to improve off the next time you go for it.

And is the easy strength approach your go-to? I didn't, I don't, if that's in the book, I don't remember that. I remember you talking about it as a method. Oh yeah. It's a method. So if I'm working with a discus thrower, easy strength would come and go through this through the season appropriately. Easy strength would come and go through the season appropriately. We might have a real focused Olympic lifting three weeks and then go easy strength after that. In the off season with the thrower, you might be on a mass building program, high rep squats and things like that. If I'm working with a general client, you probably tap out on the easy strength.

We say the 40 workouts, but honestly, I've discovered six to eight weeks of it. You know, you pick five exercises, you do a total of 10 reps, three sets of three, two sets of five, whatever. At about two months, you've pretty much tapped out. Now, I think easy strength can continue to get you stronger, but we're not dealing with machines. We're dealing with humans and you got to change things up. Tommy Kona, the great American Olympic lifter, who was also Mr. Universe, he would prepare himself with an eight-week buildup for an Olympic lifting meet and the Monday after start bodybuilding again until he got close to an Olympic lifting meet eight weeks out. And then,

and of all the things I've ever seen in my career, that seems to be the most sensible approach. So, you know, if you'd want to flip that script a little bit, eight weeks of getting strong, then traditional bodybuilding and then pick up. And I got to tell you, that would be not a terrible way to go through a year, January, February, easy strength, March, April, you know, ramp it up. You know what I'm saying? That wouldn't be a terrible, certainly you could do it a little bit more logical with how people's real lives were, but that's not bad at all. Yeah. And as far as the programming goes, what does the frequency on these exercises look like? Like you had mentioned what you did with your incline bench. I like the program that goes five days a week with a very, so I have a two week template. You'd remember that from the book. And I put that together just to get people to stop asking me questions. Cause to me, the whole thing is so easy, but I mean,

it's just mentally a very easy thing for me. And I have to remind myself that that doesn't mean it's easy for everybody. If you're doing five days a week, you'd have probably three of the workouts be two sets of five, kind of just one, two, three, four, five. Good. One, two, three, four, five. Next exercise. one, two, three, four, five, next exercise. One day a week, maybe a set of 10 light, 40, 35% of your max. I mean, light, light, light, just greasing the groove. Just as we know that acts well, and the nervous system is still working on that one. And then one day a week, like a five,

three, two, where that you got to make that double, which is gently heavier. That would be great. I have also had some good success with having now with the Olympic lifts. I've been experimenting with this where basically I have three lightish days a week, but this is the Olympic lifts. The bar starts on the floor. It goes overhead. I stand up, I drop it. You know, it's a, it's a whole body movement so you might be able to get away with more light and medium with a full body movement than you would with a pull-up which is you know pretty the pull-up stroke is that's not very long the stroke or the you know overhead press those are pretty short strokes um actually the the workout I usually recommend for, for most people is a vertical

press, a military press, uh, a vertical pull, generally pull up, chin up, neutral grip, pull up, lat pull down if you have to. Okay. Uh, a deadlift, maybe an assisted pull up if you need to that. Yeah. If you need to share a deadlift variation. And usually I recommend either like a deadlift off the racks. So, you know, you don't even have to worry about bringing the bar off

the floor, the ab wheel, and then like something like a farmer walk. That's like one of my favorite to goes. And then if you want to lose fat, you go for the walk. Uh, it can be that easy. So, you know, so here's your workout for Monday, two sets of five on the, on the press with a really lightweight, two sets of five on this assisted pull-up thing, which I like, cause it's easier to play around with the numbers, two sets of five in the rack deadlift with, uh, I don't know, 50% of what you think you can do set a 10 in the ab wheel. Pick up two 120 pound dumbbells and go down to the wall and back and you're done. You know, that's like I said, it's pretty easy. Right. And this point of never missing a rep is something I

know you stressed in the boy, that is something. So years ago, one of my zealous weightlifters would hear that and it would quickly turn into not what you're talking about. Right. Cause they're like, Oh, that's easy. I'll just add more. I'll just add more. My surgeons like the training program. You know, they like me to miss in my training. My surgeons, they think, they're like, oh, geez, I hope, I want my kid to go to Harvard. I hope Dan misses a lift this week. Maybe I should give him a call.

Maybe I should encourage him. Hey, Dan, go heavy today. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Can we FaceTime? Can you, how much you bench? Can you show me? The never miss.

So we had a guy, I used to have this great newsletter back in the aughts and it was really good. And I would get articles from all over the world because I would publish anything. And that's, I didn't have any, you didn't need references. You didn't have to go through anything. You just send it to me. Well, one of the guys was in Bulgaria for work about 2003. And he hears that noise.

Now, if you know, Olympic lifting, it has a, there is a noise that Olympic lifting makes as you walk past the building. Well, if it ain't the Bulgarian national team training. So we asked any, and, any, it works out. His Bulgarian was good enough to ask if he could watch. And the guy there was good enough to say, well, you can come anytime you want. Cause you're an Olympic lifter. So he probably watched maybe 10 sessions in two weeks, which is money.

And the one thing he told me, he never saw anybody on the Bulgarian national team miss a lift. And then I thought, well, there's, and Tommy Kono again, getting back to him. He once said, every time you miss a lift, it should take you three attempts, three makes to undo the miss. I'm to the point that I think it takes you about 30 to undo the miss. So the downside of missing big lifts is that, A, they hurt you. This surgery is from a miss. Both of those surgeries are from misses. In fact, I can probably go through all the surgeries I've had, and most of the time it was failed attempts. But at the second level is we're trying to teach the nervous system to be as efficient as possible.

And if you miss, you're not teach the nervous system to be as efficient as possible. And if you miss, you're missing, you're not teaching the nervous system. Well, what happens very quickly, like you say, you can't see how you can get hypertrophy from it. But, you know, I remember one time my friend John Price and I, we both benched 365 for 10 reps. And my thought process is for the gentle listener, it was only one set of 10, but you know, I don't know about you, but if you bench 365 for 10, there's a chance your body is going to respond somehow to that load. And so if you get a lot of weight, it's, you know, it's a lot of weight when the bar bends, when it touches your chest. Yeah. If you're, I mean, if you're squatting 605, like my friend, friend Bish used to do for 10, there's a good chance your body's going to go, Hey, we better do some growing here

because some happen out there. So I think you can, by training the nervous system hard enough, getting the loads, reps and sets appropriate, load appropriate, but over time you will get the hormonal response. And the key to that, the weights do need to get heavier though. So I get people, people listening, they wonder, okay, so, all right, I get it. Make sure the weights are light. Definitely not going to miss any sets, but how do I progressively overload? How do I get stronger? How do I go from where I'm at to like, you know, ending this eight weeks with heavier weights? Well, Mike, that's the hard part. And, uh, and when I first wrote the book, easy strength with Pavel, we had this great conversation, you know, I hate percents.

I think percents are just idiocy. You know, when I'm working with a junior high boy who benches a hundred, there's a good chance you can do 90 for 10 reps because he's brand new to weightlifting. Uh, if you bench 200, one 80, I'm saying like, and okay, uh, say you're an 18 year old or 18 year old and you're benching 200 and you see 90% for two, well, 180 for two is pretty believable. When you get a little bit more water on the bridge and you bench 300 and you see 270 for two, you go, yeah, that's a, yeah, I got, I got, I take a week or two to get, I could do that. When you get to 400 and 90% is 360 and you have to do it for a double, that's a good size weight. Well, when you bench five and a double is 450, here's what I'm trying to get across is that those are all 90%, but 450 for a double might take months to build back up to versus the person who's just

started two or three days ago, two or three months ago, one or two years ago. So one of the first things we had, or somebody who's never going to be able to move that weight ever. Like, Oh, I will never just, just, just my body. I have a small skeleton, um, long arms, long, long, good levers for lifting. Yeah. And, and so I, uh, the best I've ever benched now i haven't trained specifically for it my training is for a long time now it's been kind of like a a strength base with some bodybuilding stuff added into it um but my best is maybe 295 for two and um and so i looking at i weighed a bit, so I'm getting back to that now. I weighed probably 205 when I did that.

I weigh about 193 right now. But I just don't see how my body could ever get far beyond the 3-4-5 benchmark, right? Three plates on the bench, four on the squat, five on deadlift based on where I'm at and how much work I've put into it. So I think I talk about that too, that I think that, cause I like to give people realistic expectations, both muscle and strength gains. So I've shared that with that. That's for guys, obviously women lower, but Mark Twight and I had this, you know, who Mark Twight is. And if you don't, I just, he hates it when I summarize his career,

but 300, he was the guy who trained the people in 300. He also trained Superman, the original Jim Jones guy. You know, we're at it. We're, I came to, we're working out one time. He goes, well, you should easily be able to do this work at me. And so, so it took me, it took me a while to come around to explain to him that when you're working with people who deadlift 300 him that when you're working with people who deadlift 300 and then you're working with people who deadlift 600, these rules of 95% and 90 don't work. So that's where I came up. And it's a very important part of easy strength. So one of my best lifts of my life was at the national championship.

If I make the lift, I'm national champion. If I miss, I take fourth place. Well, I make the lift. Now here's the thing. I might, could I ever equal that lift? If someone says to me, well, okay, so your workout today is 90% of that. Well, no, no, that was a one that was to win the nationals in Baton Rouge under a ton of pressure, pulled it out of my rear end. You know, it was a one, it was a one-off lift. So what you have to do with easy strength is you have to really figure out, and the words I use are sort of max, max. Well, and the one I just said is a max, max, max. An unrepeatable lift.

Almost the longer you're around people, the more you'll have a story with every single attempt. Every single max I have has a story in it. Because you had to make a choice. It was for a contest. You were trying to break a state record. You were trying. There's always a story to it. trying to break a state record. You were trying, there's always a story to it.

So one of the problems we have with easy strength is, is that conversation about what, what is easy? What is light? People want percents, but you know, when you deadlift, like if I'm working with a guy who deadlifts 800, a 50% deadlift is four. Now, the recovery inroad that an easy 400-pound deadlift is, is still a huge inroad into your recovery abilities. So, if you deadlift eight, your light day might be 225. And you go, wait, that's ridiculous. That's not a percent. Yeah, I know. I know. So, that's kind of where the, this is where the art of easy strength comes in.

You might have some listeners here who want to try it and they're going to try to do 50%, but, but their bench press is say 150 pounds. I'm going to put 75 in their mail. I don't get anything out of it. Well, yeah, because there's, there's light and there's reasonable, but you have to kind of dial that in for yourself. So easy strength is not for somebody who doesn't want to be tuned into their body, tuned into their training history. If you want to be told exactly what to do, just go online and buy someone's program. But if you really want to experiment with what your abilities can be, then easy strength is an option.

Do you like to maybe think about, for people just listening, I mean, you could use the technical term of reps in reserve, but a weight that when you're, let's say you're doing your two sets of five. So by the fifth, you feel like you could do another five. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. And especially early. And the thing is, it was so natural for me. I honestly felt, I remember jumping from that 165 to the 205. Let's say that happened in a week. And the reason I felt it as I felt like someone was, what do you bodybuilders call that thing where you help somebody? Forced rep. Spotting. Oh, like a negative. Oh, no. Bodybuilders spotting for a bodybuilder is what we call in my world. Deadlifting. Yes. I used to work with a coach and all his athletes all had these massive bench press numbers. Well, I went to the gym one time. Yeah. The athlete was

benching too. He was deadlifting too. 400 pound bench. Yeah. Yeah. Or barbell rowing. He has a strong row. Yeah. So it, you know, when I'm doing the program, right. The weights seem to almost feel like they're being lifted off of me. And that's when I know my nervous system is, is wired. Um, every single listener knows what it's like to, to, if you've ever driven a clutch, once you've driven a clutch, your muscle memory is there to do it. So much of the first week or so of easy strength is kind of like driving a, riding a bicycle. There's a better, you haven't ridden a bicycle in 10 years. You jump on, you remember how to ride a bicycle. Maybe your butt isn't ready for the seat, but you remember how to do it. And that's kind of the way

easy strength works. It almost takes a week, week and a half, two weeks to figure out, okay, that's what light means for me. And by the time you get there, light is already, it's already morphed into more weight. And so, so is the idea then you both, both of your sets, let's even look at like the final rep on set two, let's say you're doing fives, or even that one has that, that snap feeling.

Yeah. Okay, good. So they're all, they all feel that way. I think so. Yeah. Because you don't want crappy reps.

Yeah. You know, if you start to drive the elbow out, or you even start to struggle, like maybe you're now you're getting to where you're like, maybe I could do two. I mean, that you start to drive the elbow out or you start to struggle, like maybe you're now you're getting to where you're like, maybe I could do two. I mean, that's, it's not going to move. I think it says don't even struggle. Yeah. And that, so again, that's hard to learn now. So now you're in the progress. Okay. So the first two weeks you're like, I just don't get it week four. You're using what you, you know, like, for example,

you're doing, okay. Let's say you're doing front squats. And in week four, your two sets of five is with 315. Trust me. And it's easy. It's, it's popping up every time. Trust me, there are hormonal changes going on. You are going to look different. But what is my, my friend Chris? I mean, I've never, I've never done 315 on the front squat for one, but I hear you. My friend Chris Long always says instant gratification isn't fast enough. And that's one of the things. So that's why I think easy strength works with people who've been around the block a little bit, not because they know what they do. They do know one thing. They know what easy feels like. That's the one gift they have, but they've also slammed their face against that wall enough to know that I don't want to slam my face into the wall much longer. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including

the number one best-selling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. And when you're adding weight, how much do you add? Okay. So you got your sets. They're easy. You're now ready to move up in weight. Is that? The one, here's something. I was fortunate when I first did the program because all I had was 35s and 25s. So those are my options. And then I got a 45 pound plate. So you'll notice my options went 165.

That's a 35 plus 25, 185, 45 plus 25, 205, 45, 255. So it was nice. So for me, I like the big, I don't want to see you adding tiny plates on the sides. I'd like to see big jumps. Now, Pavel is really interesting about that. He believes there should only be two plates in a gym, the 45-pound plates and the 25. And his idea on this is that it gets you, if you're going to jump from 185 on the bench to 225, you're going to spend a lot more time at 185 practicing good technique and making things are clean before you jump, boom, to the two big plates. By the way, when I talk like this sometimes, and this has got to be careful about this, Mike,

I did not tell anybody that that's what you have to do. This is an intellectual discussion about what would be a really good way for most people to figure things out. I like substantial jumps. And it makes sense also, given that things are supposed to be easy. So if you have experienced enough adaptation, a 20 pound jump seems reasonable. Again, if we're talking about a weight that you feel like you could do five more reps with, and then you've worked with that and that's gotten even easier. Yeah. Okay. Add 20 pounds.

Yeah. Make a big jump. Yeah. And there's another side. And this is just, I, you know, I mean, I have a, I have a nice happy ego, uh, you know, 1991, I guess it was two, maybe, uh, I was going to, you know, we're getting at, we're at this meet and Dave Turner and I are talking about my last attempt. Then he goes, you really should take 180. And I'm like, I got to take 180.

I'm going to take a, I'm going to take 182.5 because in kilos, 180 is 396 and 182.5 is 402. So ain't no way I'm going to come back to English speaking Murray, Utah. So how much did you clean a jerk? 396. Because what would the every single thing people would say, what the hell, man? Why did you shortchange yourself? It's like the reverse psychology of pricing, right?

Don't go with 40. You go with $39.99. $39.99 is infinitely cheaper than 40. Exactly. And so one of the things that's kind of nice, if you do take this idea, Mike, about this approach we're discussing with the big plates, is it is a little bit satisfying to your headspace. Yeah, the fractional plates. Yeah, we used to have those.

Oh gosh. We used to have these things at Dick Mountmeyer's gym. They're about this big and they weighed. Oh, I don't know. I can't remember. It was just like 25 grams or something. Right. There we go.

So if you're a snatch at 185, you slap one of those on and you tell everybody you got a new PR, you know? So, Hey, I just, you know, okay. everybody got a new PR, you know, so, Hey, I just, you know, okay. Listen, I don't think, you know, I, I, I'm an easy strength missionary and I'm, I'm failing miserably selling it. And I know that because it is, you know, Brett Contreras, I love Brett, good friend of mine. And every time I go to his Instagram account, he has multi-million dollar hot models in the tightest shorts God has ever made. And they are doing hip thrusts. Now, he has a lot more followers and people listening to him because, and I think a tiny, tiny bit of it

is that really, really hot girl in those shorts. I honestly, I know you're shocked. I don't know. I'm not sure. I know you're sitting there going disbelief. I don't believe you. Then you got this old curmudgeon bastard looking like me, you know, 64 cranky son of a bitch, you know, talking about this stuff.

And I get it. I need to start wearing the thong is the answer to this, right? Or you need to be even more prickly. Like, look at, look at Mark Ripito. You know, he, he makes it work. Well, yeah, but you get to a point with prickly where you're just kind of done with it too. So, yeah, so I get it. I mean, I think easy strength. I mean, I've, so these are just, it. I mean, I think easy strength. I mean, I've, so these are just, this is just one of my libraries and this goes, these magazines go back to the 1940s. And I mean, I've got, no, I've got thousands of magazines. I've got hundreds of books and I, and I, and I read them. And then every so often, I still stop at Barnes and Noble sometimes. And I go to the fitness section just to see what the competition is doing, frankly.

And I realized that no matter what I do or say, Suzanne Summers, who's most famously known for being on Three's Company and being blonde, sells more fitness books than I'll ever sell in my whole life. She has a bigger impact on fitness in America than every strength coach at every university and everybody like myself who teaches in college. Suzanne Summers can say that this vitamin, I'll pick this thing up again, this vitamin gets rid of cellulite off the inner thighs and she's going to outsell me. And so I just got to, so all I can really do is talk about, you know, it does work. It's not sexy and that's

going to be hard to sell. I mean, something that, that could help, and this is just reader feedback is if you made it, if you say people listening, right? And they're like, sure, I'll give this a try. This sounds interesting. I guarantee you they're not clear about how to go about it. And they could read your book and I'd recommend reading at attempts, but reading through it, it's not that you can't figure it out, but you have to sit down and you have to think about it and you have to write it out. And that's what I would have to do. And I know that sounds silly, but if, I mean, if I would, I would say, for example, if you gave some example workouts in there and gave a little bit more, just kind of take the

thinking out of it or make it more prescriptive, just do this and you'll be good. So if you want that, just go to danjohnuniversity.com that then we have the easy strength. So in fact, it even comes in and it pops up on your um you get an email and you press the button and it it tells you what to do yep so yeah uh you know that's a that's a good thing the other issue um and this is something i've learned so i've had i've been online with a blog or whatever since 1998. And, uh, I've probably answered, I mean, I, I saw my other day that I have 30,000 emails in my scent. So let's say 27,000 of those are exercise emails. Okay. And that's just that one account. Okay. Uh, I've got you beat there. Okay. You answer that many emails?

My main inbox sent and received. So I have to look at actually sent is over 200,000 by now. You actually write, answer questions. I'm not saying that. I'm just telling, I'm saying it half jokingly, obviously. I mean, I've spent, I mean, there was a time when I was spending four to five hours a day just answering emails. So here's, let me just go through the list though. The very first thing we have to establish is what equipment do you have? See, that's the problem. And this is why the workout generators on the Dan John University. Because the very first question is what equipment do you have?

So if, if you were like, like what I have now in my little home gym, I have three Olympic bars, 26 kettlebells, four TRXs, bunch of suspensions, trainers, bands, bands, bands, bands, a squat rack, a dip rack, a pull-up rack, two different hip thrust machines, every carrying equipment, every Highland thing. Okay. So if little Danny sees a program, it's a rare program I can't do. Your home gym, for example, Mike invited me this morning. He has- I have dumbbells? He has a 28 kilo kettlebell and that's his whole home gym.

Oh, that's it. Okay, good. But that's fine because I can come up with it. Now that I know what equipment you have, then I can answer the question of how to design the ES for you. And that was, that was the hardest lesson for me to learn. And by the way, attempts being about a year, a year and probably a half old from the writing, even though I knew it right in the book a year and a half ago, it wasn't as clear as it should be. There should have been a chapter in the easy strength thing called equipment first. And I didn't, and I wouldn't say it's- Doesn't that shit bother you? As somebody who's done a lot of writing, I still just, when I go back through stuff and I've done many iterations, especially my flagship books, it just bothers me when I find major, like, how did I not think of

this? And then I have to fix it. And then I'm annoyed that people are buying currently what's not fixed yet. And I think that's why I'm moving to more like web courses versus books. Because if I do come up with something, it's a very easy, you know, versus, you know, writing a new book. But if there was an error, and I apologize to the listeners who I should always ask, what equipment do you have? Question number one, but the follow up is what do you know how to do? So when I say squat, I mean, I have a very clear, definitive mental image of what I mean by squat. And then when many of our listeners are thinking squat, they're doing this bizarre thing that's not squatty. When I say hinge, like in the deadlift swing, snatch, clean. I have a very clear image of what I'm talking about. So I, I, I, those would be the first two. So what equipment do you have?

What do you know how to do? Uh, how many days a week do you want to work out? Cause we can do three. We can do, I've done like when I did the 10,000 swing challenge to start the year off with that group that January 1st, we're all going to swing 10,000. I did the 10,000 swing challenge to start the year off with that group, that January 1st, we're all going to swing 10,000. I did the 10,000 swing challenge in the first 20 days. Check that. You finish on day 19, by the way, if you do it the first 20 days, because day one is one. Don't worry about it. So I did the 10,000 swing challenge in straight, straight and didn't miss a day, 500 swings a day.

Well, somebody else says, how did you finish so fast? And then I go, well, how many days a week you're doing? Well, I'm doing three. Well, you know, well, I did those extra, those four extra days a week allowed me to get a little ahead of you. You know, I mean, so, and then after that, an important question is, you know, what intensity do you want to do that? I mean, do you want to do it to prepare yourself? You know, some of my best athletes were the 2012 Olympics, and we really had a nice, easy strength thing going on in 2011 because these athletes trusted with that extra year to have that year of experiment. these athletes trusted with that extra year to have that year of experiment.

So a few of them did very well, by the way, had that extra year to go. Okay. I'm, I'm cool with this, but you know if, if the Olympic trials are next Saturday, we're not going to, we don't have time. Does that make sense to you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They don't feel under the gun or they're not under the. Yeah. So that, those would be the things that make it made it a little harder for me to say, do this, but now I feel much more comfortable with it. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And again, people listening who want to give it a go,

it's danjohnuniversity.com. Right. And then, cause I guarantee you the majority of people who want to try it would appreciate some sort of template that they can look at. Gentle listening. Just do the workout generator for a couple of weeks first, just to get a sense to see. And then when you slide over to easy strength, it won't. And actually, I've had a couple of people do this, if you don't mind, Mike, is they do an easy strength template, get stronger, then do the workout generator for a traditional three-day-a-week whole body hypertrophy program. And guess what happens when you do a three-day-a-week hypertrophy program, when you're stronger, you get better results. Yeah. You gain more muscle.

Yeah. I mean, it's just, I think we just invented that. Write that down. You can lift heavier weights. Therefore you're going to, it's not a training. It's night and day, but you're right. And it's in, in, in your point was good. And I think it is a lesson. A lot of us have been learning since 1998, 99, 2000 with the internet. Uh, it's, it's that, uh, I don't know if you've ever read Mrs. Pigglewiggle books. Uh, I know some of your listeners has Mrs. Pigglewiggle. It's called the, I thought you said chapter. It's when little kids, you'll say something and say, oh, I thought you said something. My brother is dying of cancer. I thought you said he was dying of reindeers. And it's a very

annoying thing little kids do. But I thought you said is something that a lot of us were struggling with back in the 60s and 70s and 80s, early 90s, when I would read about a program, I'd be like, what in the hell are you doing that for? But then when you saw the person's training facility, or you saw what they were dealing with, or you saw what they didn't have, you would go, oh, I see. And when I was an administrator, I was a strong believer in something called management by wandering around where I would drive and go to the person's office who I was having problems with. And very office, by the time I sat down, we didn't have any problems. I understood it was a situation, not the person. So sometimes, you know, for example, Charlie Francis

is why he had his sprinters do so many 60 meter runs because that's the track they trained on indoors was 60 meters. It wasn't magic. It's that's all he had. And all of a sudden you go, oh, okay. So if, you know, if you're telling me that all your athletes are bulking up because they're doing snatch and clean and jerk, and I'll be like, wow. And then I come to your facility and it's a world-class Olympic lifting training place where you've got platforms and everything and coaches on every platform. I'll go, oh, I see. Okay. But if you've got 66 kids and one Olympic bar, you're going to have to do something radically different. So that's been, those have been the big insights of that. That's been the gift, the gift for me of the internet is I understand now why sometimes people just don't get it. And it's not their fault.

They don't have the equipment I have, the weather I have, the facility, the support I have, or they have better this, better that, better this. And they don't need to go through this idiotic thing that I have to. It gets taken care of. You know, I was working with an athlete from a European country who's the physical education program at that European country was so advanced that everything we basically worked with her, she had done that in the fifth and sixth grade already. So, you know, you got this collegiate athlete who's got this great background in sprint technique, plyometrics, Olympic lifting, kettlebells, med ball. She knew a thousand med ball exercises. you have to take that athlete and go, okay, now let me work with these Americans from, you know,

and who whose ideas with PE was, was dodge ball and pick up basketball, you know, literally what I did for PE. That was fun though. Yeah. Oh, it's fun, but you didn't learn sprint technique and the Olympic lifts and kettlebells and medicine ball work. Yeah. Tumbling, you know, she, she, they had a whole course on tumbling. She was, you know, and if, I don't know, I guess my point is the joy of the internet for me. And your point about the downfall is once again, this is, this is the greatness of the internet

is that you can share that with me. I can share my issues. And I think we're both better at the end of the conversation. And I've seen that effect again, particularly in the evidence-based fitness space, at least that type of information is becoming more popular. Not all of it is good. A lot of it though, is better than the standard of information when I first got in, when I was just like you were saying, I had the magazines and you had the big, huge bodybuilders and, you know, this is supposedly how they trained. And that was, that was really it. I don't know. Yeah. I'm surprised they haven't been candid about the pharmacy issues in, in, in that world. I mean, I have friends who will talk to me unfiltered and frankly, it scares me. Oh, I mean, they're, who will talk to me unfiltered, and frankly, it scares me.

Oh, I mean, they're like chemistry experiments. Oh, it's amazing. Ingesting basically rat poison to lean out. I mean, all kinds of things that I don't know if we'll ever really have research on because of the ethical implications. So you just have case studies of people who are injecting all kinds of interesting chemicals. And I guess we'll just see what happens. That's pretty much it. I don't know if I can support that as a dad and grandfather, but yeah, it's true. And I'm a big believer. In fact, in theology, common sense is considered

the highest form of reasoning. But I like experience, but then experience runs in. And by the way, I'm not discounting Bigfoot or anything or the Loch Ness Monster. And if you have seen Bigfoot, gentle listener, please don't email. I saw a headline actually recently on the Loch Ness. Somebody had taken a video. I don't know. Who knows? I could care less one way or another. What does it really matter?

But there did seem to be some weird snaky thing going through the water. I don't know. Sure. Well, evidence, eyewitness is, if you've ever been in an auto accident, and then I was at a court case one time, and I know what I know. I know what I saw, and it's not what happened.

Seven different people all saw different things. Yeah. But I saw I'm a big believer in experience with an asterisk. So I like experience, but, you know,, and God bless me. Just the idea of the day, uh, Mark Eaton, the great Utah jazz center who I helped in the weight room. Uh, when you meet Mark Eaton, one of the first things you realize is that you'll never play center in the national basketball association. Uh, he was a normal size human at seven foot four. And he held my daughter Kelly in his hand like this, like this. He had a baby in his hand like this. That's a big guy. So as much as if Mark is

teaching your 12-year-old son how to play center, that's great. But there's a good chance your son's not going to make it to the NBA. So I am a great fan of experience and I'm a great fan of, you know, us sharing the information, but there's always an asterisk on it, you know? And when you read articles and you find out a buddy of mine was a real druggie and he died young. And when he died, a whole bunch of his friends defended him because people said he was a druggie. And then a documentary came out about him and uh it's they have his journals in there and he talks about all the drugs he's doing it's like well okay uh you you could not do the things he did physically without some kind of massive support

from stuff and and that's that's in a lot of a lot of sports a lot of athletics something i've i've i've commented on tangentially it's not it's not particularly relevant to my focus, which is just helping normal people get into good shape. But it is, again, I mentioned this earlier, in the context of expectations and what you see online, because you have a lot of men. It's more of an issue with men, obviously. But in some cases, women, mostly men. Yeah, they look great. I mean, they're the trifecta. They're big. And by big, I mean big. They're strong, actually strong, and they're lean, right? And they're like that all the time. And they claim

to be natural. And that's all they talk about is how natural they are, which is a red flag, by the way. Anybody who consistently says they're not on drugs, if they are big, lean, and strong, and they consistently claim that they are natural, there's a good chance that they're not. But the problem is, and I know this firsthand having heard from so many people over the years, guys in particular, is they're getting into this thing and they see this guy on Instagram and they go, oh, they take his claims at face value. And now they think that this guy's experience is not only possible for them, but maybe even normal. And some of these people, they promote their personal story as if this is just the normal thing. You don't need outstanding. Some of them go as far as saying, look, I didn't have good genetics. I was this skinny little wimp

when I first started lifting and now I'm jacked and you could do this too. And so it sets guys up for failure because they're expecting to be able to gain far more muscle and strength than they are going to be able to gain. They're expecting to do it a lot faster. And then when their experience doesn't meet these false expectations, they, they can go in different directions. It can be, they, they process the disappointment and they just move on. Or in some cases it actually leads to drug use because they think that's the only, there's just something

wrong. They must have such bad genetics that they should just, you know, accept reality and get on drugs. Well, on the female side, between plastic surgery and Photoshop, you can, you can have, and, and painting the face. Yeah. I was going to say makeup as well. I mean, you can, you, you, you really can produce a false narrative that I think has an impact on, especially young ladies. You know, my daughters, this is tough. I mean, it's tough for me to talk about.

My daughters were both throwers and my daughter, Lindsay, who's upstairs with my grandson, Leo, she was a, you know, she threw for the University of Utah, the hammer. You know, I'll be honest with you. It's when you've got a daughter who's in the weight room snatching and cleaning jerking and doing squats, you know, there's a little bit of you. It's like, this isn't the itsy bitsy college cheerleader, you know, and this isn't the cover of shape magazine girl. And, um, I talk about it a number of, in fact, I have a whole chapter on it and Josh Hillis's book, uh, where I talk about it.

Uh, and I think it's, it's a very, not only is it a false narrative from these Instagram models and some of these celebrities, but I think it rains, it rains, R-A-I-N-S, down on some of these poor adolescent females who are struggling with the realities of reality. And I do, my heart, I, it, it kind of hurts my feelings now. And you're talking about beauty standards, talking about beauty standards and the physical standards and the pressure that, that young women feel to look a certain way. So I, a woman told me here, she's a, she's a counselor at the schools and the impact of porn on the adolescents

and what they consider sex. And it was like, I'm not, and I'm not prude at all. I'm just saying that when she finished talking to me, all I could think was, oh dear God, I'm so glad my daughters are thirties. You know, just when I was young, getting a porn movie was hard. You had to get a, you know, you know, it was hard to get. And now is that a real to real projector? Yeah. And now, you know, the kids and the kids think that this is what happens. And it's like, oh boy. And you take that and you just slide over to how you should also look and how you should

also be in relationship. And, and I'm just, I'm just glad more kids, a lot of kids come out of it. Okay. Yeah. And unfortunately, I guess we're going to see in the next 10 to 20 years, uh, what, what the effects, I mean, we know I've spoken about porn some time ago. I do an episode every month or so where I address something that people disagree with me on. So I ask people to tell me, tell me something you disagree with me on. And I call it says you is the little series. And I had commented on porn previously that I think we'd be better off

if it were banned. And I would be totally okay with it being banned. I mean, I think in Israel, they banned it. Why can't we do it here? Or in the UK, I think they've already either going to, or they already have put something in place where you have to, you actually, and this is very, this is very British because they don't give, they're essentially a police state. You have to, you actually, and this is very, this is very British because they don't give, they're essentially a police state. You have to put in a government ID, like you have to have a government ID and you have to input the information to access porn. And it's for, you have to be 18 or older. Right. And so, so I did, I did a little episode. Somebody disagreed with me that, that porn is not that bad or even that it's good. Right. And, and I went over some of the research that's on porn and yes, particularly with younger people, I think that you can make a good right and and i went over some of the research that's on porn and yes particularly with younger people i think that you can make a good logic and evidence-based argument for for

adults but particularly i mean even even starting at like by the changes to the brain and it messes it messes kids up and you know i when i alcohol for a teenager yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I started looking at porn when I was probably 13 and then I, I did it for a while and I eventually stopped and I haven't looked at it once in many years. Um, but, and, and fortunately for whatever reason, I guess I got out of it fairly unscathed, but it definitely, it minimally warped my perception of, of sex in a negative way. And I didn't, it didn't go as far as like, uh, erectile dysfunction or choking someone or hurting someone or turning it into, turning it into pain type stuff. Although, although I know some people, I mean, I don't know if it's porn that did it, but I know some people who have gone sex. The only way they could

enjoy it anymore was it had to be degrading to the woman. That was the key. Sorry. But anyway, so yeah, I guess we'll see. Again, there's more and more evidence that we would be better off without it. And of course, it's more popular now than ever, I'm assuming. I haven't looked at that data anytime recently, but I doubt it has gone down in popularity in the last several years. Well, Teresa Rodriguez, she's a researcher down in Arizona State. You know, she actually did kind of an interesting study on it. And the thing that was the most damning from, and I actually used it just before the 2002

Olympics on women in sport as a, that was us do a workshop here locally about how it warps the male perception of a normal female and i thought that was fascinating folks i'm not moralizing i'm not getting on a high horse i'm just speaking okay okay i mean i don't even give that disclaimer because uh i don because it's not about me claiming that I'm better because I don't look at porn. No, no. I looked at porn for a long time and I could talk about my personal experiences, positive experiences of not looking at it. But really, when I was talking about it, I was just going over the research that is available on it and saying, hey, I'm not one for scientism, I'm not one for just blindly bowing to whatever the quote unquote science is.

But when you have a lot of anecdotal evidence and you have a lot of firsthand experience, a lot of people listening have probably looked at porn and have probably done it consistently and have experienced some negative things firsthand, and you have scientific evidence, when you have all of those things converging, that's when I think we really need to pay attention. And that brings us back to, honestly, the role of science and art in what I do.

So much of what I do in the strength world is scientifically based from the research of the 40s and 50s. I start doubting things when the sixties start to roll around because of the use of PEDs, but then at the same time, there is an art to what I have to do. Um, and my athletes don't have the time for the researcher to get it right. And and that's and science moves slowly it just does well that's why i always go back i that's why i go back to the german and american studies of the 40s 50s and early early 60s and i look at that and as as my foundation okay this taking vitamin d in the winter seems to help athletes all All right. That's a German study, Hedinger's book,

The Physiology of Strength. Okay. If you get injured, your return time to normal, to your previous strength levels happens much faster than the original. And every time you get hurt after that, it gets faster and faster.

It comes back. That stuff has never changed. But then there's the art side is the, I got to take this information and i've got six weeks to get mike in the best shape of well to get mike in a place where he can perform as well as he can at the olympic trials which is harder than just into great shape like you were saying that's that's that's quantitative it's not qualitative subjective like oh yeah my biceps do look a little bit better, don't they? Well, it's like we always say the problem with strength and conditioning is it's strength and more and more conditioning.

Conditioning for what? When I was young in high school, the U.S. Army used to give us these little things. And I bought them back called conditioning for a purpose. And I love that little line. There was a reason why you got in shape. And I was, and I love that little line. There was a reason why you got in shape. And I still talk about this all the time. And I mean, I look at some of the things you push these, it's getting better by the way, but what you do with American football players and they just beat the hell out, run kids off. And it's like, you know, I played the game

and the only time my conditioning ever came in and I learned this as a defender if we had a pick six interception go for a touchdown I would no longer get excited because I was on the PA team so I was on defense score PAT kickoff and now I'm back on defense and I'd be because the kickoff and if someone went off sides we had that's the only time I ever really needed conditioning. I'm in shape right now to play the position I played. I mean, I don't know if I'd last. The idea is that there's conditioning that's for a purpose, that's appropriate, that's enough. And part of the problem with the American experience in strength and conditioning is that we tend to fall in love with the Gatorade commercial.

Everyone's sweating and high-fiving, and that's not a good image for what actual conditioning is that we tend to fall in love with the Gatorade commercial. You know, everyone's sweating and high-fiving, and that's not a good image for what actual conditioning is. To quote that great 1970 song, enough is enough is enough is enough. I can't go on. I can't go on. Enough is enough conditioning. Yeah. I like it.

Well, this has been a great, great discussion. I really appreciate you again, taking the time. And why don't we wrap up with, I've mentioned the book that against instigated this was its attempts. And so anybody listening, if you're still listening, you're going to like the book, just pick it up. And then where can people go? You mentioned Dan John University. Is there anything else you want them to know about? Sure. If you want literally 3000 pages of free material, and I say pages, you know, I mean, pages, I got a book on raising my daughters. I got a book on discus throwing. I got a book on kettlebells and I got a book on weightlifting

all for free at danjohn.net. It's all free. Help yourself read through it. Uh, if you think you know something go start reading some of those archives and put your there's stuff from the chinese national team the bulgarian national team world record holding a triple jump um but yeah uh and then danjohnuniversity.com um we just came out with a course on how to program for normal people um people want me to do a programming for elite athletes and it's just like i don't know if it'd have any value to be honest with you on how to program for normal people. People want me to do a programming for elite athletes. And that's just like, I don't know if it'd have any value, to be honest with you, Mike. Because there's so much of the art.

Is that right? Yeah. And, you know. I mean, there's not a big addressable market if you're looking at it from like a neck and neck. Yeah. And, you know, when I talk in Easy Strength about working with sprinters, I mean, you know,

they were born and God hit them with a lightning bolt mean you know they got they got they were born and god hit them with a lightning bolt you know it's like major league pitchers i remember this dad one time talking about his son he threw the ball 83 miles an hour it's like okay that's uh that's a change up uh for a that's a change up for a junior college pitcher that's not a it's not a fastball you know i had a kid who threw 95 miles an hour and the major leagues didn't even sniff at him nowadays. Wow. 95. Wow. So yeah. I mean, what do you have? That makes me think of something you mentioned in your book, which is, I forget who said this, you were quoting somebody else, but like, I'm paraphrasing and you can let me know if I'm remembering correctly, that if, if you're not at the highest level of your sport within a couple of years, like you're never

going to be world-class, just forget about it. You're not good enough. Tommy Kono said that. So did my friend, John Powell at the disco store. John Powell's are remembered, but I didn't know if that was correct. If you specialize and you're not world-class in two to three years, you're not good enough. And I tell you that, that breaks your heart a little bit. Now, having said that, that's world-class. That's world-class in two to three years, you're not good enough. And I tell you that, that breaks your heart a little bit. Now, having said that, that's world-class.

That's world-class, exactly. So it doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. I remember that correctly. Of course, you're not saying you can't get really good at something. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and I'm sure you've got a person or two in the audience who plays a musical instrument. And I can guarantee when they're playing the guitar in,

you know, in their basement, man, you should really go on tour. And you're like, yeah, I'm good, but I'm not, I'm not that good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me when I was taking up golf and I've always, uh, I grew up playing sports and I've always been fairly good at various athletic things, just coordinated, whatever. I'd been lifting weights for a while. So I was strong and that helps with golf. And most golfers are not strong at all. And so I remember getting some lessons with a teacher and he was trying to pitch me on, stop working, stop doing what you're doing. Just pursue golf. Like maybe you can, yeah, you can go all the way maybe. And I was like, no, I hadn't come across this John Powell thing yet, but I just knew. I was like, no, no, no.

Because I actually had a little bit of experience. I've shared this story before on the podcast. It's been a while though. So I played a lot of ice hockey, right? And so when I was young and I was a teenager, I thought I was really good. And it turns out I was like, okay, for my age, that's it. Right. But, um, I thought I was better than I was. My friends and I thought we were all hot shit. One of them ended up playing D one, which is, so he was a good, he was good. You know what I mean? Um, but we thought we were, we were really good. Right. So, so we were at a camp

and it was being run by a guy named John Tucker, I believe played on the lightning at the time. And he was, um, at the time the lightning were terrible. I think they were the worst team, worst, worst record in the league. Right. So we're in the locker room, putting all of our shit on getting ready for the camp. And, and we're just talking shit. We're like saying, why are we at John Tucker's hockey camp? Like, you know, he was, he was on the worst team in the league. And, and we would joke that he would, he was the worst player on the worst team. When we would watch him on TV, he looked so slow and useless. You might as well just had a blow-up doll on a stand, just whatever, moving around on the ice randomly.

And so we kind of had this little attitude. And so we get into the camp, and one of my friends, the kid who went and so we kind of had this little attitude and so we get into the camp and one of my one of my friends the friends the kid who went and ended up playing d1 i think at boston so he's challenging uh yeah his name was nick right nicky is what we call him so so he's challenging he's challenging john to one-on-one in front of there's maybe 60 of us or whatever right and 50 something like that and john's blowing them off and finally john sees like okay so this kid i don't know what he sees there's something that this kid's like trying to show him up right and so so i'm probably we're probably like 14 right

and like an adult right nhl player and and it was it was just a rude awakening when he finally was like, all right, come on, let's go one-on-one. And, and this guy could skate backwards twice as fast and agilely, if that's a word as, as Nikki could skate forward. Like there was, they could go a thousand times and Nikki would have never gotten by once impossible. John was way mean he just knocked the puck away every time just there's nothing that you do so after that we were like holy shit actually because again when you watch these players on tv john looked terrible he really did look bad it's such a leap oh man and and so throughout the course of that of that uh camp we got to interact with john and he was showing us different things and i mean he was showing us different things. And

he was by far the best hockey player I'd ever been on the ice with. Of course, when he was in the NHL, we just didn't understand like what it really means to be world-class. It's, it's, it's super freak. Like, how do you even do that kind of level? I know, I know that's it's know. But gentle listener, remember, you can have a great life and be in great shape, move well, have great kids and grandkids, read good books, make a difference in your community, but not everybody's going to play center in the NBA. And I've talked about this in the context of business even, right? So what's the business equivalent of that? Well, what net worth is the business equivalent of that?

I don't know, tens of millions of dollars probably. Well, Bill Gates was on the internet before most people had home computers because his dad was working on the internet at home. that little advantage, that's, you know, if you grow up in a family with professional hockey players in your family, you're going to be better at hockey because your typical pass around is going to be at a higher level. Those little advantages,

man, geez, they're huge. Totally. But anyways, again, great discussion. Thanks again for taking the time. And I'll,

I'll think of, think of another one if you want to do it again. Absolutely. This was fun. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did subscribe to the show, because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if

you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just what your thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode and I hope to hear from you soon.