Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Eric Helms on Trying To Stay Too Lean (What the Science Says)

Episode Date: August 18, 2021

In this interview with Eric Helms, we chat all about the concept of staying too lean. That is, we discuss body fat percentage from the standpoint of health and performance. Many people set their crosshairs on getting a six-pack when they first get into fitness. “I’ll be happy once I have abs!” they fantasize. And that’s all well and good from an aesthetics point of view. Most of us like how we look when we’re really lean, but when it comes to general health or strength training, is having ripped abs actually beneficial? The truth is staying super lean year-round can have an impact on other areas of your life beyond how you look, including your training, sleep, mood, and hunger. In other words, staying too lean for too long can impede your progress if you have other goals beyond looking shredded, and that’s what Eric is here to talk about. In case you’re not familiar with Eric, he’s not only an accomplished bodybuilder, powerlifter, coach, author, scientist, and member of Legion’s Scientific Advisory Board, but he’s also one of the guys behind the Monthly Applications in Strength Sport (MASS), which is one of the best research reviews out there. In this episode, we talk about . . . How body fat relates to health and athletic performance Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (RED-S) and energy availability Energy compensation and how extreme amounts of activity affect energy expenditure depending on energy availability The easiest way to tell if you're too lean Reasons for getting (and staying) lean And more . . . So, if you want to learn how staying too lean for too long could be hurting your progress in the gym, or just want a little motivation as to why you should lean bulk, this podcast is for you! Timestamps: 6:12 - How do you know if you're trying to stay too lean? 12:09 - What is the sweet spot in terms of body fat percentage and weight? 16:35 - What is RED-S? 31:12 - What are symptoms of RED-S for women? 35:37 - What's the best and easiest way to know if you're too lean? 40:10 - What is the optimal calorie range for you? 51:41 - What if you notice negative effects at the level of leanness you want aesthetically? Mentioned on the Show: Eric Helms’s Website: https://3dmusclejourney.com/ MASS Research Review: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/mass-issue-1?dst=massmuscleforlife Shop Legion Supplements Here: https://buylegion.com/mike

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Muscle for Life. I'm your host, Mike Matthews. Thanks for joining me today. And quickly, before we get into it, if you like what I'm doing here on the show, and you want to make sure that you don't miss new episodes, and if you want to help other people find the show, please do subscribe in whatever app you are using to listen, because then of course you will get notifications when new episodes go live, or they will automatically download depending on the app. It may not notify you, but it will certainly automatically download. And when you subscribe, it really helps the rankings of the show in the various charts. And that, of course, makes it easier for other people to find me and

my work. All right, so what are we getting into today? I have an interview with Eric Helms, All right, so what are we getting into today? I have an interview with Eric Helms where we talk about staying too lean. We talk about body fat percentage from the standpoint of health and performance, not aesthetics, because the curse of getting shredded, and maybe I haven't gotten shredded as a bodybuilder thinks of shredded, like stage lean, you know, 4% body fat, but I've gotten pretty lean, 6% or so, maybe a little bit, let's say in the range of, you know, 5% to 7%. And even then I noticed negative side effects. And I was a bit younger when I was that lean too. I was in my late twenties. So I was physiologically primed to feel great all of the time. And even at

seven-ish percent, I noticed more hunger, less sex drive, worse workouts, lower energy levels. And as you get leaner from there, it gets a lot worse. And Eric talks about that in this podcast because he has done it. He has been a competitive natural bodybuilder for some time now, and he has gotten stage lean without a bunch of drugs that allow you to feel good. So anyway, in this episode, Eric is going to be talking more about the health and performance aspects of body fatness as opposed to just how you look. So he's going to be talking about your training and your sleep and your mood and your hunger and other things. And in case you're not familiar with Eric, he is not only an accomplished bodybuilder, powerlifter, coach, author,

scientist, and member of Legion's scientific advisory board. He's also one of the guys behind monthly applications in strength. SPORTMASS is the acronym that they generally refer to it by he and greg and mike sordos and eric trexler the crew that works on what i think is one of the best research reviews out there so if you are currently cutting or are going to start a cut and you plan on getting very lean and you've never done it before and you're curious how far you should take it and what can happen if you take it further than that, this episode's for you. Or if you are not cutting or you are not planning on cutting, but you just want to know what is too lean and why, I think you're going to like what Eric has to say. Also, if you like what I am doing here

on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which, thanks to the support of many people like you, is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. And we're on top because every ingredient and dose in every product is backed by peer reviewed scientific research. Every formulation is 100% transparent. There are no proprietary blends, for example, and everything is naturally sweetened and flavored. So that means no artificial sweeteners, no artificial food dyes, which may not be as dangerous as some people would have you believe, but there is good evidence to suggest that having many servings of artificial sweeteners in particular every day for long periods of time may not be the best for your health. So while you don't need pills, powders,

and potions to get into great shape, and frankly, most of them are virtually useless. There are natural ingredients that can help you lose fat, build muscle, and get healthy faster, and you will find the best of them in Legion's products. To check out everything we have to offer, including protein powders and bars, pre-workout and post-workout supplements, fat burners, post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more, head over to buylegion.com slash Mike. That's B-U-Y-L-E-G-I-O-N.com slash Mike. And just to show you how much I appreciate my podcast, peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout, and you will save 20% on your entire first order. Hey, Eric. What's up, Mike? How you doing? Pretty good, man. Pretty good. Just as I was telling you, getting ready to move and staying busy with work and kids and

whatever life stuff. Absolutely. The real life stuff. Not this whole fitness nonsense that we always talk about. That's still part of it. It's got to be in there. But I can only dedicate so much to the gains. Like sleep, for example. I used to sleep. I used to be invincible. I used to just that blackout, that teenager sleep, blackout, unconscious, open your eyes and it's morning and you feel great every day. Now, after a couple of kids, it's not terrible, but it's just not the same. Like I slept, I slept six hours straight last night. And that's rare. I was like, Oh wow, this is going to be a good day. I mean, I, I fell back asleep for a little bit more, but it's not the same anymore. No, it is not. And, uh, as much as I've dedicated my whole life to fitness, I'm definitely

not in my twenties. Let's put it that way. So I relate. Yeah, man. To segue to what I wanted to get you on the show today to talk about, which is body fat percentage. And this is something that I've spoken a little bit about and I've written a little bit about, and I have my own experiences to share. But basically, the question that triggered this for me is, how do you know if you're trying to stay too lean? And this is going to be in the context of health and performance. Aesthetics aside, you're never lean enough. If you're only looking at what you see in the mirror, I don't have to tell you. I've never been as lean as you've gotten, but I'm sure you've experienced the mindfuck of it a little bit. I know I have even where I've gotten

pretty lean for a photo shoot and then anything fatter than that just feels fat. I think we've spoken a little bit about that when you were sharing your experience in your last contest prep. But but so looking again, looking at maintenance from the perspective of physical health, emotional health, workout performance, making progress. I thought that you'd be the perfect guy to bring on the show and explain to people and help them understand. Again, how do you know when you're just trying to be too neurotic about it? You're trying to be too Instagram, you know? Too Instagram. That's perfect. Yeah.

I think, you know, to be honest, if we keep this out of the realm of aesthetics, then it's a much easier question to answer. Um, because hell I've actually been so lean that I thought, you know, I kind of look like the way it was like four pounds ago. Um, where you start to look sickly in the face and things like that. Cause you're just cheekbones and a beard. Um, yeah, I have fat cheeks. So for me, it just makes me look, uh, kind of like, you know, a little bit more of a jawline. Yeah, man. It's, uh, like there, there is that point where you just look a little bit younger, more, more pronounced jaw. And then if you keep going and you lose pockets of fat on your face that you didn't even realize were pockets of fat before. And you're like, Oh my God, I'm a skull. So, uh, yeah, I, I literally kept my beard during prep after I did a photo shoot and I hadn't planned on keeping it.

I just decided I liked it because it disguised some of the skull like skeletal face that I had going on. But anyway, I think if we keep this to the question of health and performance, it's a much easier question to answer. And I do think, you know, despite the times changing and people getting with the data and our more holistic understanding of health, people still do kind of associate leaner with healthier. And if you actually look at the data on this, even if we go to the far other end of it, when you start to look at reliable health associations where you see negative effects on health, you actually have to get into the higher than a 30 BMI category to see consistent data that that's actually consistently and reliably related to being less healthy. And for people wondering how that correlates with a body fat level, I know a lot of people

listening, they're probably thinking more in terms of body fat percentage, you know? I will get there. Absolutely. Yes. I apologize. So no worries. How dare you interrupt me? No, I'm just kidding. So yeah, yeah. For sure. For the standard classifications, that would be like class one obesity is over 30 BMI and, you know, overweight is 25 to 29, quote unquote. Now I have a 25 BMI and, um, you know, overweight is 25 to 29, quote unquote. Um, now I have a 25 BMI when I'm in, in stage condition because I had more, more muscle mass. So to give people an idea of what that is in terms of body fat percentage, if you are someone who lifts weights, um, we're probably talking about for males, um, in the, uh, mid twenties, 20, 20% body fat, and you are probably just as healthy as you would be in the teens. And it's not until you get into like the high 20s or even 30s where we could say,

yeah, there's probably a good chance that that is having, at least associated consistently with negative health consequences. So I think that's a useful way of framing it to kind of just understand that the ceiling is a lot higher than the, hey, I need to be, you know, insert like a random number that's almost always 15% or 12% or 10% body fat to be healthy. Then from a performance perspective, man, that totally depends on what type of performance we're talking about. If we're thinking of your kind of standard folks who are probably listening to us, that's I want to be strong. I want to be reasonably fit, but mostly it's resistance training performance. Yeah. There is some other interesting data we can look at. Greg Knuckles did a little in-house analysis of the openpowerlifting.org database and found the strongest explanatory variable for someone increasing their total, if you just look at

the demographics available, is gaining weight. And that can explain like 30% of the variance of gaining strength. And that's why it's a weight class. That's why Ripito always says I'm just a skinny loser and I need to gain 30 pounds and then I'd actually be strong. Exactly. Um, yeah, you just need to get to the point where you're squatting 500 pounds, but it's only 1.5 times body weight. So easy enough. Um, so yeah, the, the thing is, is like, if you want to be super, super strong, um, it is difficult to do that while controlling body weight, which requires controlling calories, uh, which may require doing cardio. Um, and there also may be some independent effect of actually

being quote unquote too lean, which we can get into where performance is just kind of capped. It's not that you can't be at, you know, good for you performance, but it might be good for you performance at a given body fat percentage. And anecdotally, something I've noticed is that when bodybuilders or strength athletes try to hover around too lean of a body fat for them, it is difficult to progress over timeframes, which they would normally be able to see progress if they were maybe a little bit less controlled. What has that been like for you?

Yeah, I fit this mold quite well. I would say the only downside is I don't seem to gain strength as reliably going above a certain body weight. I have pushed my body weight up to like 220 pounds and I'm six foot to you, like, you know, on paper, that should mean a very reasonable body weight for me, but I also have relatively small frame. So that's, that's kind of hefty for me. And it's hard to do to get up there. And it doesn't seem to make me much stronger than being like, say, 210 or 215, unfortunately. So for me though, I noticed if I'm trying to hang around under 200 pounds, then I can perform okay, but I don't seem to progress as well. Um, so kind of the sweet spot for me is, you know, pushing from say 200 to 215 and, you

know, maybe a little higher than that for an extended off season before I, you know, then do like a mini cut and kind of prepare for the next competition. But I'm hanging in the low to mid, like 200 to two teams kind of thing is where I can progress, shave off some fat to make it a little more runway room and then, and then rinse and repeat. And then what is that? Uh, what is that like in terms of body fat percentage for you? Yeah. I mean, if I had to guess, I would say considering my, my stage weight is right around 180 and that's maybe we'll say 6% body fat. Um, assuming some muscle loss, uh, and having looked at pictures of myself throughout contest prep,

I think around 200 pounds for me is probably like 12% body fat. Um, so that, that gives some anchors to those numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like we have similar, uh, just similar bodies in that regard. So I'm, I'm a little bit taller. I'm, I'm six, two ish. I don't know, maybe a little bit shorter than that. I have small bones. Do you know what your wrist circumference is out of curiosity? I used to, because I did the whole Casey butt calculation thing, but I can overlap. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I have small bones for sure. I was not made to be a big and strong guy.

And so I previously, I hit my best numbers, nothing impressive, but my one RMs were close to the three, four, five benchmark. I got to about three on the bench, about four. So I was like 365 for a few on the squat. So that's probably close. I have to pull up the calculator and maybe mid fours in the deadlift. And I was making progress, but I hurt. It wasn't a terrible injury, but I pissed off my SI joint and then I had to back down. And that was kind of the end of that lean gaining phase. And so similar to you. So I weighed a little bit less. My weight has always been strangely low. So random anecdote, I was at Universal Studios one time. I was pretty lean. And you know

the booths where they guess your weight. And if they're off by more than 10 pounds or five or something like that, you win something. And she was off by like 25 pounds. Wow. I was 178 or something. And she guessed like 205 or something. So anyway, so my weight is always strangely low, but at that time I was, I want to say 205 to 208 and probably 13, 14, 15, just in that range, like looked pretty good, but, but not, not, um, not shredded by any means. Right. And, and so I, I just remember those workouts and I had a lot of energy and I was able to consent continually progress. And so now I'm working back toward those one RMs, but I'm at a lower weight. I'm like one 93. And I'm surprised that how much more difficult it is. And my

training is better now. Like my programming is better. I know more thanks to people like you than I knew then. My programming was okay at the time, but it's certainly better now. And I'm working harder now. I'm doing more volume and it's just interesting. It's interesting to have had a similar experience to yours just in terms of the exact numbers. Yeah, man. It definitely seems like there seems to be some quote unquote thresholds. And the funny thing is if I was to tow the scientific consensus line right now, when we look at, let's say say body fat percentage, like what's too low in, in sport and athletes, it's technically, uh, like considered it like a side effect of energy availability. Um, so like

there's, there's something called, uh, REDS, which is an acronym relative energy deficiency in sport. And it basically describes all of the effects of not consuming sufficient energy for the demands of your sport and your physiology. And you can actually mathematically calculate this based on your exercise activity, your lean body mass, and then your energy intake. So basically, after exercise activity, what's your calorie intake per unit of lean body mass. And when you get below numbers like, say, 30 in kilograms, like Kcals per kilogram of lean body mass after exercise activity, that's when you start to see symptoms of REDS, relative energy deficiency in sport. So this is a often parallel but independent construct from whether you're in an energy surplus or deficit.

Um, cause if we were to talk about what is quote unquote metabolic adaptation, um, that is the process by which you burn less calories per unit of lean body mass. So for someone to get down to, let's say stage condition, let's say I, what would I do? What's necessary to get to that 6% body fat, I also start to have much lower levels of thyroid output, lower levels of catecholamines. I have a, you could measure me and I'd have a slightly lower resting metabolic rate, but other components of total daily energy expenditure probably adapt more like neat. But my skeletal muscle efficiency at certain

intensities would probably be down. And we would see things like my testosterone levels being maybe a third or a quarter of what they were if we expect me to respond similar to other bodybuilding case studies. But all in all, all of these changes are essentially what we think of as metabolic adaptation. We're forgetting that those are all the changes that we see where, you know, basal body temperature goes down, there's less fidgeting. We are actually trying to be more efficient in terms of the energy output for our body mass so that we can be at maintenance, but be at too low of a calorie intake for the demands of our sport and the demands of our body if it had all those normal physiological function.

So you can maintain a lean body comp while having kind of quote unquote, half the lights off in the building, if you will, just kind of running it like budgetary cuts level for that building. And that's probably, it's not necessarily unhealthy because it is an adaptation. It's not like a mal-adaptation like it's sometimes described, but it's not a great place for performance. And it can be unhealthy depending on how far it's taken for how long you maintain it. So, for example, in women, there is a much more obvious physiological consequence of this. They get amenorrhea. of this, they get amenorrhea. So their menstrual cycle will become irregular and then eventually stop if they're consistently consuming less energy than they need for their physiology

and their sport. And you'll see this very commonly. It's part of the female athlete triad, which sits within all the symptoms of REDS. So this is someone who is trying to stay lean. Maybe they think it's enhancing their power to weight ratio. They're perhaps even performing better, but they're kind of redlining it when you really look at it. And this is a, it increases the likelihood of injury in athletes being at too low of an energy availability. It increases the occurrence of upper respiratory tract infections, and it is associated with

actually poorer performance as well. So it's almost like sacrificing short-term or long-term performance for short-term performance, trying to be too lean for too long. And if you were to look, for example, in the gymnastics community, there's a big shift here now where doing the things that would make people stay smaller or longer during their formative years is now frowned upon. It's changing. And we're actually starting to see some gymnasts who are performing well at an older age than they used to.

So anyway, the point being is that from the kind of party line of what is the evidence based consensus here, it's not about body fat. It's just about consuming sufficient energy intake. And to maintain a low body fat would require you to not maintain a sufficient energy intake. And I'm mostly on board with that. But there are some physiological realities that make me think body fat is probably a moderator as well, not just the observable consequence. So for example, there is data on the relationship between body fat

percentage and leptin. So for your listeners who don't know what leptin is, leptin is kind of considered the quote unquote master controller of your metabolic status, if you will, in terms of energy availability. And it is not just something that responds to exogenous food. It is eat food, your leptin signal will go up. It's also secreted by adipose tissue fat. So there is like a 0.87 correlation, if I can remember correctly, between body fat percentage and leptin levels. So it's very difficult for me to imagine that someone walking around at say 6% body fat, even if they were somehow able to eat sufficient calories, wouldn't be having some negative signaling and effects that would at least moderate some of those reds

signals or symptoms, I should say. So that's a long monologue to basically say, technically, it seems to be about calories, but if you get too lean, there's probably an independent negative effect as well. And this may be a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. negative effect as well. And this may be a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What would, would somebody not be able to, is the point that, okay, these are athletes, they are active, they're burning a lot of energy, but you can only do so much of that where my point being like, okay, let's say you have this lean athlete and they need to eat a certain amount of calories per, per pound of lean mass after exercise. And is the point there that after exercise means that this is now we're talking about over their expenditure, or could

they not just move more to make up for that, to balance that out and get by on 6,000 calories a day because they're a super freak squirrel bouncing off the walls all the time, that's actually an interesting question that interacts with a whole other line of research that's on the constrained model of energy expenditure, which has been observed in humans and is somewhat affected by this whole Reds thing. And that is basically that if you expend a whole lot of energy in terms of physical activity, it doesn't increase your energy expenditure quite as much as it would predict because there's compensation in other places. I'm actually reviewing an article from Mass right now that looked at this in the e-mechanic

study. And studies love these days to have these ridiculously long acronyms. I can't even remember off the top of my head what e-mechanics stands for, but it's basically a study that's investigating how energy and weight loss compensation occur. And the original study that was, they conducted it between 2010 and 2015, and they published some of the data in 2019, was specifically looking at, okay, so why do people not lose as much weight as you'd expect when they start an exercise protocol? And their conclusion was because they start eating more.

And while that is true, it's not the only reason. And this 2021 paper that just came out is a sub-analysis of that, where they took those same or a cohort of those same participants, and they put them in a metabolic chamber for 24 hours, and they found that their energy expenditure there was actually about 4% less, despite the fact, or not despite, or possibly as a consequence of the fact that they had increased their exercise expenditure, because one group was doing about 800 to 1000 calories per week of cardio, doing about 800 to 1000 calories per week of cardio, and the other one's doing 2000 to 2500. So there's this compensatory effect, where other elements of TD total daily energy expenditure are coming down, because they're burning so many calories. So neat, maybe I mean, that's an obvious

Yeah, and it was it was actually something that was they didn't pick it up with accelerometry. And they had to, because that was what they used in the bigger study they didn't pick it up with accelerometry um and they had to because that was what they used in the bigger study they only picked it up when they put them in that 24-hour metabolic chamber and they weren't able to really nail down what the specific cause was but when you put them in a metabolic chamber which is sensitive enough to pick up those those changes um it was shown so it's uh it's it's neat probably as part of it, but it may not be all of it. There is, I mean, they're probably not doing too much fidgeting when they're in the chamber. Yeah. It's, it's basically the size of an office. So they're allowed to not going to just

lie in the bed all day, but you're not going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, well, for example, if you really want to get crazy, you know, uh, a limitation that they cited in that study in that study was that they didn't do biopsies to actually look at skeletal muscle efficiency. And I was like, well, damn, like, I guess there's always a limitation if you're going to go that hardcore. That's, that's on another whole nother planet of funding for the type of stuff I do. But nonetheless, the point is, is that you probably can burn more calories and just simply eat more. Because some of the, but not as maybe as much as you'd think. And it is impacted by how, like your energy intake relative to your energy output, for sure.

Those are interdependent things. So for example, and I always mispronounce the name of this tribe, so forgive me. I think it's the Hadza. It's either the Hadza or the Hadza, and I always say it wrong. But regardless, it's one of the few hunter-gatherer tribes left in the world, and they have an enormously higher physical activity than people in the Western world, but a similar total daily energy expenditure, meaning that there's a substantial amount of compensation. However, when you look at Quakers who are post-agricultural, but pre-industrial, they have a very high physical activity as well, because being a farmer, it's maybe not as much physical activity as being a hunter gatherer, but certainly it's a lot more than being an online

coach like me. Um, and going to, to, to, to the countdown to buy my grocery store. That's where it is in New Zealand. That's like, that's, I'm not farming is my point. Uh, they have a very high energy expenditure, but they also have a, sorry, a high, very high physical activity, but they also have a higher energy expenditure than us. And they're lean. Like if you look at the men who are, you know, culturally more active. So they're walking around at eight to 12% body fat, they're eating close to 5,000 calories, and they also have a very high energy expenditure. So the question is then, well, what's the difference between the, the Hasda? I feel a marketing phenomenon.

Oh yeah. I'm about to sell you an ebook. That's right. I'm selling you the Quaker diet. Yeah. It's, it's actually why the whole reason you should eat Quaker oats. Um, so the, the difference probably is, is that the Hasda are not getting enough nutrition because they're hunter gatherers. So they're the, the typical hunter gatherers so they're the the typical they're the example of someone who's experiencing reds right they have an okay energy intake but they're doing a whole lot of physical activity and that energy intake is not enough to support both the physical activity and the physiology so what you see is a shorter stature probably lower testosterone levels essentially hypokinatal male kind of,

and they can function. The society is still going on. It's been around for a very long time. It's not probably optimal for health and performance, but it's sufficient for survival. And it's not until we start to see, if we think about anthropologically, that we started to see the post-agricultural societies where height increased. that we started to see the post-agricultural societies where height increased and we started to see people who are larger. So I think that's kind of the difference. And that was a really roundabout way of answering your question, that you can simply move more to eat more, but in some ways you have to eat more for that moving more to result in a higher energy expenditure,

which is kind of the catch-22. And just to make sure I heard you right, because that's interesting. So there seem to be fundamental physiological down regulations, so to speak, like things that cost energy. And it's basically like, well, we're moving a lot and we don't have a high energy availability. So we're just going to be doing less of these things that would result in a taller body or a bigger, stronger body and so forth. Exactly. And those serve both, you could argue, I mean, obviously it's not, I'm not saying the why of evolution because it is just what was selected for, but there is the acute reduction in energy expenditure from not producing these signals or metabolic processes,

but they are also limiting body size, which lowers energy expenditure, which is probably serves an adaptive, more long-term purpose as well. Interesting. So maybe quickly, if we recap. So for men, health can be, you do not need to be at an arbitrary low double digit or certainly not a single digit number to be healthy. And I'm assuming you would say that if you're really into the single digits, that's probably not, uh, going to be healthy for, for, for most people. Um, and, and then, and as far as performance goes in men, did I hear correctly in that the sweet spot is, is for, for most guys, would you say that it would be somewhere in the teens that could be lower or higher? I don't know if you had specifically commented on that.

Yeah. I think for performance, there's the anecdotal stuff I've got. There's essentially, you know, you need to be eating enough for the performance you're trying to achieve. But anecdotally, and I'm pretty confident in this with the number of people I've seen it occur in. Yeah, like on average, somewhere in the range of like 12 to 25% body fat for guys. And like you said, for women, you know, we could just basically tack about 8% on top of these numbers and you get about the equivalent. So, yeah. Makes sense. definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. How does this

look for women? Cause we've really been talking just about men and I'm curious, um, as far as health goes, is there, are there any other considerations for women just because of some of the unique you'd mentioned in Maria, any other issues that yes women should be there are yeah so for women there seems to be some uh limited emerging data that would suggest uh that you know i talked about that calculation of energy availability based on uh mass after correcting for exercise activity. Men seem to be able to go at a slightly lower calorie intake before they start to get a lot of the red symptoms. Women, they start to see changes in what's called LH pulsatility. So luteinizing hormone pulsatility, which is a kind of quote unquote early warning

signal for disrupted menstrual cycles and eventually amenorrhea at a higher energy intake. And then again, if I'm to put my anthropology hat back on, which is again, not my expertise, but my best understanding and connecting of dots, given that hunter-gatherers largely have the males acting in this capacity where they're expending all this energy to gather food, that may be why there is less selection pressure among women to have these higher levels of activity and still function physiologically really well. Plus, it wouldn't even be ideal to even test those waters because you not only have to provide food for yourself and your family, but also the growth of life and to see yourself through pregnancy and a healthy birth and to actually keep the lineage going. So that's why women have, you know, higher levels of essential body fat.

And that's probably also why, uh, they probably should be a little more on the side of erring on eating more versus less and not pushing the boundaries of low energy availability. Um, like there was a speculative paper on natural bodybuilding where they said, Hey, you know, when men go below a 25 value of Kcals per kilogram of lean body mass after correcting for exercise activity, it seems to be associated with higher levels of lean body mass loss when dieting and natural bodybuilding case studies. But in other research, they suggest women not to go below 30 because that's when you start to see menstrual cycle disruption. So there's an argument for

ensuring that you maybe diet a little slower and try to maintain a higher calorie intake in women, because it's more likely to threaten some of the reproductive health specifically, which probably corresponds to other things as well. And as far as energy intake goes, so I just want to look at this from both sides. So if we look at, okay, body composition in men, 12 to maybe as high as 25. And it sounds like there's just going to be individual variation. I mean, you had mentioned that you don't seem to get as much of a benefit from the higher levels as other people. And I guess I haven't gone too high and I'm not sure, but I would suspect based on my training experience, I'm probably similar.

Because, I mean, it's hard. I remember that previous lean gain. By the end of it, I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this many times. Anybody listening has. I was eating 4,000 plus calories a day. And I was force feeding myself. I mean, I did not enjoy any of the meals anymore. day and I was force feeding myself. I mean, I did not enjoy any of the meals anymore. And it was, it was, I felt just gross basically in full and just, yeah, all the time. Right. And so anyway,

so we have that in terms of body comp is the point really, and you may have made this point, but I want to make sure that I heard it correctly, that that's going to be driven mostly by the energy availability, that some people just need more calories to really be able to fully tap into their potential, so to speak. Yeah, I would say that's a good interpretation and summary for sure. And I like that you mentioned feeling gross when you're eating a lot because what i don't want people to take away from the discussion thus far is okay i need to measure lh pulsatility or i need to calculate my energy availability or i need to get my testosterone levels checked or something like that because there's a very easy way to know if you are too lean uh and that is you're focused on

food all the time you know know, you are hungry. Um, and I don't mean like hungry before meals, like you normally get, I mean, like your thoughts for the two hours before the meal or, Oh, what should I get this time? And it's a large focus. And you start to salivate when you, when you start to picture what you're going to eat. Yes. When you are living meal to meal, um, that's that's that's not a good sign and um again we won't we won't get into the aesthetic side because then the question becomes like well but i want to because i like the way it looks and i'm willing to sacrifice that and then you know

whatever that may be true now may not be in the future and some people like to hold on to things that aren't realistic because they really, really want it. And I thought this would be a good discussion. And I think it's been a good discussion to counterbalance that, you know, cause that you actually, I remember you were talking about it, giving your own personal experience from your last prep, but anybody who's been in the body comp game long enough has experienced that if they've gotten relatively lean, anybody listening immediately knows like, yeah, okay. That's, that's, that's just where our orientation tends to swing. And so, uh, that that's, that's one of the reasons

why I wanted to get your thoughts on the health and performance in particular. And, and, um, and some of the benefits really of, of not being so fixated on just the aesthetics. And I know you had mentioned this last time, but your body image does change as well. And you, you can get away from that fixation on, I just want maximum, I want ab veins or, you know, I just, uh, I don't know why I'm, I don't know why I'm here. Why do I exist if I don't look great? Um, yes. Like Zoolander says that maybe there's something to life more than being really, really, really, really good, extremely good looking or whatever this quote is. But I think the... Leave that to the philosophers, though, you know.

Yes, that's too difficult a question to answer on this podcast. But I will say that there are like the reason you're hungry is due to physiological changes. The reason you're hungry is due to physiological changes. I think that's a good thing for people to remember is that the fact that you are focusing on that meal three hours out probably means that ghrelin is higher, that leptin is lower, that maybe you even have slightly lower than a normal testosterone. You may be experiencing some other symptoms of REDS. For example, for me, a good sensor, uh, that I can use is disrupted sleep. Um, when I'm trying to maintain, uh, too low of calories

slash and, or too low of body fat, I start to notice that I kind of pop awake at 4am. Um, and that's not everyone, but some people do experience that. Um, I think it's women actually have it quite good if they're not taking, you know, oral contraceptives or don't have any, or, or any, uh, hormonal birth control. Uh, if they start to experience a regular menstrual cycle for them, um, then that could be an indication as well. Um, but there are signs and symptoms, but I think the most obvious one is that food focus. Likewise, on the other end of it, like if you're going, well, you know what, this is a cool podcast and I never really pushed my body weight that high. And I'd like to see if I can get my strength numbers up when you're getting to the point where you do feel like

you're force feeding, even when you're eating more palatable foods and you're, you know, you're chewing less and you're doing all the tricks of the trade to get as much calories in as you can. And you're just do not want to eat. That's probably a symbol or a signal I should say of that's about as high as your body really wants you to get. And, you know, this is a different story for everybody. Obviously, we've seen the obesity epidemic in the last few decades. There are some people who can get around that based on their physiology, environment, and various other factors. But for the folks who are listening to this, like you said, people in the quote unquote, body comp game, who maybe didn't come from a background where they

were high in body fat to start. But if they were more quote unquote normal or even skinny to start, that's kind of a signal you could use on the upside. But on the downside, pretty much ubiquitously for everyone, it is that drive to eat, food focus, and kind of obsession with meal planning. Like if you're watching food porn, you're too lean probably, you know, or you've been dieting, you know, or both. So, and, and I'm curious, what is the optimal calorie range for you, for your, for your performance? Yeah, for me, I think for context, remembering that I'm a desk jockey, um, and that I actually make myself go on walks. I'm probably eating around

3000 to 3300 calories per day at a body weight of a little over like I'm at like 210, 215. So that's not a lot, but I'm also just not that active. Yeah. Yeah. We're similar in that regard. I'm probably like 2800 or so, but I weigh a bit less and, um, I'm lifting five hours a week. And then I do 30 minutes of just, um, moderate intensity. I have a, an upright bike. And so I do 30 minutes a day on that. So otherwise though I sit here and I move my fingers. So, um, and, and so, so then for, for people listening, uh, I guess that that's a, that's a good, simple heuristic to use is how you feel. Right.

And, uh, just, just again, to recap is, um, you're gonna, you're gonna find, and this is probably been your experience, but you can correct me if this is not generally, but in having spoken with a lot of people for, and certainly for me, I'm thinking back to my, my lean bulk, uh, at first it was fun eating a lot of food. That was nice having great workouts, but in time, as I gained more body fat, um, I'm guessing that, that that's what is driving just based on, uh, even, even based on, on hunger hormones and metabolic things that as I gained more body fat, that's when food just became less and less palatable. And it seemed like inversely related. Basically,

I guess my fat level went up. My interest in eating went down until eventually I was like, I'm done. I've had enough. It's been like six, four or five, six months, something like that.

And I think it's time to call it quits. And is that, is that uh is that is that generally the experience in your experience and yourself and working with people that and some people they can just go a lot further before they're just done yeah it basically in someone who is a i'm going to say a normally regulated uh metabolically and in terms of their food behavior, that's what's going to happen. And kind of going back to the whole obesity epidemic thing, I think what we see is a large portion of the population is no longer normally regulated. So then the question is, what the hell

do you mean normally regulated, Eric? Well, there are some things where we're much better at protecting against losing weight and getting too lean than we are protecting against getting higher in body fat. And this, again, probably comes back to selection pressures. And so, for example, you see in mice, they're far better at protecting against gaining weight and losing weight. And this makes sense because they're a prey. And if you get too high in body fat and you get slower, you're likely to be... You get got. Yeah, exactly. You done get got. So yeah, they're facing threat of predation

while humans have traditionally faced threat of famine and malnourishment. So there are a large portion of the population that is ancestrally hasn't had the selection pressure of getting too heavy and being something to correct against. So some of the things in modern society have made it far easier to gain weight and have it to go to that point where you're still hungry, despite the fact that your body fat levels are very high. That's hyperpalatable food, changing some of our reward signaling. Being more sedentary, there is actually good data to suggest that there is kind of a baseline requirement of activity to regularly regulate hunger and satiety signals. And this has been shown in multiple

studies. It's called the J-shaped curve of appetite, satiety, and body weight regulation. Classic study in Bengali mill workers showing that the office workers were eating the same amount of calories as the floor workers. The sedentary office workers versus the people actually working on the floor and were maintaining a much higher body weight compared to the floor workers in various jobs, scaling from moderate to very high activity, who are all roughly the same body weight on average, and just regulating their energy intake to match their activity versus the office workers who are sedentary, heavier, and eating like they're far more active than they were. So activity, being a desk jockey, can dysregulate your satiety and hunger. So you have to actively think

about, all right, how do I get myself more active? Um, this threshold cutoff, when we look at a convergence of different lines of evidence is probably getting like at least 7,000 steps per day, um, is a decent guideline that I often use. Um, uh, and then also eating foods that are a little more kind of normal, I guess you could say not hyper palatable, primarily, uh, and then also eating foods that are a little more kind of normal, I guess you could say not hyper palatable, primarily, uh, single ingredient food items. So whole foods, if you will, um, processed foods we've seen from metabolic ward studies done by Kevin Hall's lab that people tend to overeat them and not realize they're overeating.

Um, there'll be in a 500 calorie surplus, just kind of doing their thing versus maybe even being in a deficit from baseline if they start eating a whole foods diet. So this kind of goes back to the data on Quakers. You know, you've got these males walking around 10% body fat on average. They're highly active. So they got that sorted and they're literally making their own food. So it's a it's a whole food diet, um, and with a high level of activity. So those are kind of the main things that you might need to implement. Their own version of resistance training too, right? Cause they have to move around. They are, you know, they're there cause there's very few post-industrial tools and they used it to farm. So yeah, the manual labor is no joke. So yeah, essentially, if you want the experience that Mike and I are describing of, you get lean and then you get hungry. And also,

as you get higher in body fat, you stop being hungry. If you don't currently experience that, and you find that you're always fighting against weight gain, those are some things you can change is to try to go on a couple of walks per day. You know, first thing in the morning that I do, my wife and I, we get up and we go for a walk and it's just part of our daily ritual. You know, go on a 30 minute walk. You're probably going to clock 2000 steps right there. If I don't go on walks or if I don't exercise, I'll be at like 3000 steps per day. So to get up to that seven mark, I work out five days a week and I go on a daily walk.

And on average, I'm hitting that 7,000 mark. So it's something that often with the way modern society is requires conscious effort and change of your daily rituals. And then also just changing to the degree you can the food environment inside your home because you're not going to change in broader society. So if you do those two things, those are kind of the big heavy hitters. Some other things you can do is to try to actually slow down when you're eating, have a regular meal schedule, eat within your waking hours and not right before you go into

bed and things like that. Try to get sufficient sleep, which we talked about as a challenge sometimes. And maybe stay off screens while you're eating. Exactly. Yeah. Drink some water while you're eating. Absolutely. Things that make the meal something you're consciously aware of. Some of the weight neutral approaches like mindful eating and some elements of intuitive eating can't even be helpful if you need to get better regulation because they're not intending to induce a deficit, but they often halt weight gain. And it's basically actively paying attention to your hunger levels, actively paying attention to your satiety, being present while eating, like you said, and slowing down that process. So those signals can actually have an opportunity to manifest. slowing down that process so those signals can actually have an opportunity to manifest.

And collectively doing all those things should give you a much better chance of being someone who is normally regulated so that you can pay more attention to what is too high in body fat or what is too low based on some of those physiological signals that you'll be getting. One other thing that people have shared with me over the years is becoming comfortable with being a little bit hungry or, or at least just not being full and not feeling like they have to feel full all of the time. Um, and that that's something that just has just kind of stuck in my mind that that was never a thing for me. So I can't say that I have firsthand experience with that. Um, but, but I can imagine that if, if even a little bit of hunger or your stomach just starts to feel empty, if that triggers the desire to eat, that can be a problem too.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. So that's something that my parents relate to. And in their generation, my mom is turning 71. They were taught to eat everything on their plate. Um, and, uh, probably because their parents went through the great depression. Um, you know, again, armchair anthropology and now sociologist here, I could be full of shit, but it does seem like some of the behavioral and environmental learned behaviors, uh, that come in different people can affect that. Another thing, like if you look at some of the, unfortunately, some of the predictors for obesity in later life, or, or even eating disorders and body image concerns is a lot of

dieting. So a lot of people can get, you know, basically traumatic experiences from trying to repeat the diet over and over and over again. And the experience of dieting is being hungry. So trying to, you know, leave that behind you and just never wanting to feel like that again, can be a response to dieting. So I definitely see in people that have tried to deal with the hardships of dieting by increasing food volume, eating more fruits and vegetables, and trying to manipulate mechanical satiety by having, you know, it's the whole lots of fruits and vegetables, the huge salads, high protein diets, all stuff that I recommend, don't get me wrong. But doing that for years, and trying to combat that hunger as a way to stay

lean, or leaner, or in this perpetual dieting state can lead that to becoming a learned behavior, which can, which can cause problems on the track. Like you, like you got, like you hinted at Mike. Interesting. Interesting. Well, um, so for people listening, I think a key takeaway here is if, if somebody hasn't consistently, we really, if they haven't, if they haven't really committed to a lean gaining phase and really taken it to its, I would say, logical conclusion, then it's worth doing. Yeah, feeling gross. That's it. If you do not feel gross, keep going.

And it's worth doing because you'll have, learning experience, right? And I guess a person can then kind of find their own Goldilocks zone, so to speak, in terms of where... And that's where, of course, aesthetics come into play, but that's up to the person. I mean, at least now they can have the firsthand experience of having great workouts and, uh, you know, just generally having a lot of energy, probably better sleep, better recovery, and then weigh that against abs. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. And the only thing I would recommend if we want to briefly touch on the aesthetic side of it is that um if the physiology doesn't line up with what you aesthetically like just do some thinking as to whether that's that's worth it um and whether that really makes sense

and and maybe why because i i think for me being a fiercely independent person, when I realized that I was basically chasing a societal standard that was heavily influencing me based on social media, that I was trying to be lean, not because of my own values, but because of what I thought the values I should have should be. And I railed against it immediately. And I was like, Larry, look, like I got into this, I get lean for bodybuilding. I'm comfortable with how I look. I didn't think I had an issue before I started lifting weights. And I'm not going to let that take over my self image now. So but I think that that's the case for a lot of people is that they have this view of what they want to look like. And again, like you said, it's for them,

it's their choice. But I would just, you know, question whether it is really they want to look like. And again, like you said, it's for them, it's their choice. But I would just question whether it is really your choice to look that way. Are you actually choosing to look that way? Are you being heavily influenced by Instagram, like you said earlier in this conversation? Yeah, it's an interesting point. I'm reflecting on it myself. I certainly like it now. I'm not super lean, I'm not super lean. I'm maybe nine or 10%. And I like the look and maybe I'm even being generous there, but anybody who looks at my Instagram, I'm pretty lean. I look pretty good. I'm not, I'm not ready to step on stage, um, but leaner than, than maybe your, your average fitness person bouncing around in the gym. And, um, I'm happy with this look. I do understand that I'm sacrificing some performance. Like if I were just to what you were mentioning earlier in the

podcast, if I were just a straight gain, now I'd have to do it intelligently, but just work to gain 15, 20 pounds. There's no doubt that, that I would do better in my, in my workouts. But I enjoy, I still enjoy my training. I get enough performance out of it. I look forward to my workouts. And so I'm not dragging myself through my training sessions. And this would be a different discussion, but genetically speaking, I'm at the end of my rope as far as size goes. And I don't even really want, I wouldn't want more size, honestly genetically speaking, I'm at the end of my rope as far as size goes. I don't even really want, I wouldn't want more size, honestly. Again, I'm pretty happy with how things look. I'm just in a general maintenance mindset where I'm also enjoying my workouts.

I'm like, well, fuck it. I feel like I get to have my cake and eat it too. I get to look a way that I do like, and I don't really feel like I'm sacrificing much, but maybe that's because I haven't really committed to a lean gaining phase in a long time. I don't even remember what I'm missing. Well, I mean, you're kind of in the promised land. I think that's 100% all good. I think the people I want to speak to are those who are kind of in that perpetual, should I cut, should I bulk? Like I want to be bigger, but I want to be more lean. Or the people who are trying to be lean and they're expecting to be happier because of it or for it to fundamentally change their life. And I would just ask them to question that.

their life. And I would just ask them to question that. So for me, I'm still trying to compete in bodybuilding. So I have a very strong why as to why I'm trying to get bigger, even though I'm also at the end of my rope and I'm scrambling for a pound over a year or something like that. You're measuring now in grams. Exactly. It's the same measuring tool I use to weigh out my oats that I weigh out my gains in my bicep. Exactly. So, yeah, you know, I'm still trying to increase my powerlifting total. I'm still trying to increase my lean body mass. I think if I was someone who had different goals, I would probably be looking similar to you.

Maybe not quite as lean. If you were less ambitious like me, then you would, if I was a, just, you know, someone without goals or direction in my life, you know? Yeah. But, uh, but I think the point is though, in all seriousness is I ha I have strong wise for why I do what I do. And so do you. Um, and, and they make sense. Like if you don't want to be bigger and the idea of squatting a little more or benching a little more, like if you're like, Hey, I'm, I'm really strong. I have a good amount of lean body mass. I'm healthy. I'm happy. I'm performing well.

And I enjoy the way I look. Then if it ain't broke shit, leave well enough alone. Right? That's right. Yeah. Well, this was a uh, this was fun as always. I really appreciate you taking the time again. I'm sure people enjoyed all of the, uh, all the great information that you always have to share. Let's wrap up with, um, telling people where they can find you and your work. Let's definitely plug mass as always, which is, um, again, like I've said, it's my favorite research review. I really respect and admire what you guys do with that. I know there's a lot of work that goes into that. And I've found it very helpful myself. So thank you, Mike. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. Always, always. It's an honor. And yeah, you can find me at 3dmusclejourney.com. That is the number three,

the letter D. From there, you can find links to mass. You can find links to my books, The Muscle and Strength Pyramids. And for those who don't know, like Mike said, mass is something we put out monthly, unsurprisingly, monthly applications in strength sport. And that's myself and my colleagues, Greg Knuckles and Dr. Mike Zerdos and Dr. Eric Trexler. And we write about all the research that's come out or is coming out on a regular basis related to body composition, change, strength, nutrition, and resistance training. So yeah, if you want to check that out, be our guest. We'd love to have you. And yeah, that's pretty much me. One thing that's cool, I'll just add about research reviews, and this applies to mass, but any good research review is by the time research makes its way into books, for example, especially mainstream mean, we're talking about, okay, research is new.

And then let's say somebody grabbed it and they spent six to 12 months maybe writing a manuscript. And if this is a traditionally published book, then the publisher wants another year at least to release it, right? And so what's neat about research reviews is if they're done well, in the case of mass, it is done well, you get to be, um, you get a front row seat basically, uh, as to, as to where research is going and what questions are being explored and what answers are coming out of what has been explored previously. And so when, when people will ask me often for book review book, uh, recommendations in particular with health and fitness, I've recommended your stuff many times.

I've recommended Lyle's stuff. I've recommended Mark Ripito's stuff. Just classics that I think everybody should read. Like here, this will give you your foundational knowledge. But beyond that, I've told people, honestly, I don't even really pay too much attention to the books now that come out, especially body comp stuff. And I personally just go to research reviews like yours and a couple of others because I just find that the most productive use of the time. So just adding that. Honor to hear that, man.

And I echo that. I think books are great, like you said. And I think the ones I'm attracted to more these days are ones that discuss systems and principles of integrating research, which may stand somewhat independent of where the research direction is going. But yeah, if you want to get the most up to date view of what's going on, if you want to keep your finger on the pulse of sports science research, then books are probably not the best place for that, for sure. And something that's just to add one more thing, and I know you've done this with your books, is I'm going through another round of updates to my flagship books, so to speak, for men and women, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner, stronger. And those are meant for, um, people who are newer to this and, you know, guys who have yet to gain maybe their first 25 pounds or so of muscle. And it's, it's a lot of work. It's not particularly fun. I'm sure you've done your, you know, you go to do another edition and it's a bit of a slog, but, uh, I feel like it is the quote unquote, right thing. I just. I want to do it because I now know more than I

knew on the last round. And I realized that I could have explained certain things better, or I could tweet, you know what I mean? So as a self-published author, although the next book that I have coming out is going to be with Simon & Schuster, but I can do that. And so I do do that. But if I were to have published those books with a traditional publisher, I wouldn't even have the option. Even if I wanted to do that, they would have said, nah, no thanks. Not that even all they really would have to do is take the new manuscript, give it to the book designer to put it in InDesign. I could even offer to pay for it. I'll pay for them. And it'd be like, nah. And I understand it's because of all the systems. It's just not worth anyone's time. That's how a traditional publisher would view it,

unless they're going to officially come out with the next edition. And you have to put up some pretty big numbers to make a publisher interested in that. So that's something else that is... It's just a challenge with books. They become antiquated often fairly quickly. Well said. Anyway, thanks again, Eric, for doing this and everybody go check out Mask, go check out Eric on Instagram and I'll look forward to the next one. Thanks for having me, man. Well, I hope you liked this episode.

I hope you found it helpful. And if you did, subscribe to the show because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general,

or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just what your thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon.