Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Ethan Suplee on Losing 300 Pounds (and Keeping it Off)

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

When you really break it down, fitness is pretty simple. Want to gain muscle and get stronger? Lift heavy weights and make those weights heavier over time to keep making progress. Want to lose weight? Eat fewer calories than you burn by eating less, moving more, or both. However, dumbing it down to such simple tenets isn’t always helpful. For someone who’s very overweight, for example, blunt “eat less” advice isn’t necessarily the most motivating or even practical tip. Helping people requires a bit more nuance. And it often helps to hear from someone who has made it through that journey themselves rather than a trainer who’s never been a pound above ripped. Enter Ethan Suplee, who has had one of the most impressive transformations I’ve seen. I’ve had him on my podcast before to talk about his journey from over 500 pounds to jacked with abs. In case you’re not familiar with Ethan, he’s a Hollywood actor who’s appeared in quite a few blockbuster movies and hit T.V. shows including Mallrats, Without a Paddle, American History X, Cold Mountain, Remember the Titans, My Name Is Earl, Chasing Amy, and many more. Not only has Ethan walked the walk in terms of losing a lot of weight and keeping it off, but he’s using his celebrity and story to help spread the word about proper nutrition and training through his Instagram account and podcast, American Glutton. In our discussion, we talk about . . . Getting emotional eating under control The merits of the motto "food is fuel" The psychology of getting really lean and how to maintain weight loss Being afraid to eat more after losing weight Motivation to keep training once you reach your goals And a lot more . . . So, if you want to know what it’s really like to go from very overweight to lean, and what it takes to lose serious amounts of weight and keep it off, listen to this podcast! Timestamps: 0:00 - My fat-burners Phoenix and Forge are 25% off this week only! Go to buylegion.com and use coupon code MUSCLE to save 20% on any non-sale items or get double reward points! 6:10 - How is training 6 days a week going for you? 6:57 - Have you added volume? 11:30 - How do you make someone want to change on their own? 16:35 - At what point did you decide to make a change and why? 22:42 - What was holding you back that stopped you from changing yourself? 26:57 - Would you say you were emotionally eating? If so, how did you get that under control? 23:52 - What had to change in order to live your life differently? 32:45 - What are your thoughts on people who disagree with labeling food as “just fuel”? 42:08 - Have you experienced any unique challenges? 48:05 - Was there ever a period where you started to gain weight back? 59:44 - What’s your motivation now? 1:06:03 - Where can people find you and your work? Mentioned on the Show: My fat-burners Phoenix and Forge are 25% off this week only! Go to buylegion.com and use coupon code MUSCLE to save 20% on any non-sale items or get double reward points! Ethan Suplee’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ethansuplee/?hl=en Ethan’s podcast American Glutton: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/american-glutton/id1490933138

Although many of us insist on making fitness complicated or believing that it is complicated, when you boil it down, it really is pretty simple. If you want to gain muscle, if you want to gain strength, you have to lift heavy weights and you have to make those weights heavier over time to keep progressing. If you want to lose fat, you just have to eat fewer calories than you burn consistently. And if you want to retain muscle, you have to eat plenty of protein. And if you want to minimize your risk for disease and maximize your longevity, you want to eat a lot of nutritious food. And while those tenets are technically accurate, technically, that is all it takes to get into great shape and get into great health and stay

that way. They are often not very practical because for many people, they're easier said than done. Take someone who's very overweight, for example. If you just tell them to eat less and move more, if they were to do it, you're right, they probably will lose weight. If their calories in go down enough and their calories out go up enough, then they will create a calorie deficit and they will lose weight. They will lose fat. Chances are though, they're not going to do it. If you have somebody who's overweight, who needs help, and you just tell them, hey, you just got to eat less and move more. They're not going to find that very motivating. They're not going to buy in and follow through.

And so the real trick to helping people get into better shape is often not just helping them understand abstract concepts, even ones that matter, like energy balance and progressive overload, but ultimately it is helping them understand themselves, helping them believe in themselves, helping them overcome inertia, you know, just get into motion and start making progress. And it often helps for people to hear from someone who has been in their shoes, who

knows what it's like to be very overweight, for example, and who has gone from very overweight to very fit, as opposed to hearing only from people who have always been fit or who went from just normal to fit. And that's why I was excited to have my friend Ethan Suplee back on the show because he has made one of the most impressive transformations I've seen yet in my 10 years now in the fitness racket. Ethan has gone from 500 pounds to jacked with abs. And in this episode, he talks about various aspects of his journey, of his transformation, and how he overcame some of the big obstacles like emotional eating, and how he learned to go from a severely disordered relationship with food to seeing it more as fuel, and how that has helped him not only lose

a lot of weight, but keep it off. And he talks about the psychology of that, of getting lean and then maintaining weight loss, which for many people is actually harder than losing weight. Ethan also talks about finding motivation after you've already achieved a major fitness goal and a whole lot more. And if you are not familiar with Ethan, by the way, he is a Hollywood actor who has appeared in quite a few movies and TV shows, including Mallrats, Without a Paddle, American History X, Cold Mountain, Remember the Titans, My Name is Earl, Chasing Amy, and many, many more. And he also has his own podcast called American Glutton, which I've been

on a couple of times. Before we begin, if you want to speed up your metabolism, lose fat faster, reduce hunger and cravings, and save quite a bit of money, then you want to check out my natural fat burners, Phoenix and Forge, which are on sale this week only over at buylegion.com. They are 25% off. And in terms of real world bottom line results, when you combine these supplements with proper diet and exercise, you can lose up to an additional one to two pounds of fat per month. And in the case of Forge, it specifically helps you lose stubborn fat faster, which I know sounds like bro science, but is not. It's real science, and you can learn about that science over at BioLegion.com. And the reason these supplements

are so effective is simple. Every ingredient is backed by peer-reviewed scientific research and is included at clinically effective levels, which are the amounts used in the studies that demonstrated benefits. So if you want to lose fat faster, and if you want to experience less hunger and cravings when you're cutting without having to pump yourself full of harsh stimulants or harmful chemicals, pump yourself full of harsh stimulants or harmful chemicals. And if you want to save 25% this week only though, you want to try Phoenix and Forge today over at buylegion.com, B-U-Y-L-E-G-I-O-N.com. You will not be disappointed.

In fact, if you don't absolutely love Phoenix and Forge, just let us know and we will give you a full refund on the spot. No forms, no return is even necessary. You really can't lose. So go over to buylegion.com now, order Phoenix and Forge, save 25% and see if they are for you. Ethan, happy, what is it today? It's Thursday. My days are messed up because I'm not on my normal training schedule. Like I started this week squatting and then that's how I normally know

what day of the week it is. Like, what did I train today? Oh, that's right. It's a Thursday. That's so weird. My training is skewed too. I was doing five days a week almost all last year and I moved it and I would like,

my fifth day was legs and back. And then I was like, why am I taking two days off? I don't need two days off. So now I have a proper six day PPL schedule, but it has thrown me because I started and ended on a Saturday and then began the next week. Anyway, my schedule is totally screwed to the, the, that single day instead of double day off is, is tripping me up. And so six days a week, interesting. And, and how is that going for you versus the five days? I haven't done a six day in a, in a long time. It's good. I, you know, I struggle with my days off. I prefer like the best feeling I have every day is as I leave the gym and I feel like I can conquer the universe. And, and,

and so Saturday and Sunday, I actually find my energy to be kind of lessened, whether it's a little bit of fatigue and just not getting that excess energy that I get out of going to the gym. So I've just reduced that down to a day. It doesn't seem to be harder now when I get deeper into this training block, it could, it could be, I don't know. We'll see. And, uh, have you adjusted your, have you just added volume or did you just take your previous volume that you were doing and then, uh, it out differently so you could get in the gym six days? You know, cause I, the reason I ask is I'll, I will get asked here and there more experienced weightlifters about training six days per week or seven days per week. And I've generally told people I'd recommend at least one day of, of no weightlifting.

week. And I've generally told people I'd recommend at least one day of no weightlifting. And if you're going to do six days, if you just take what you're doing right now, five days are usually training five days a week on average. And if you just add another day on top of what you're already doing, it might be too much. Like we'd have to look at what you're doing, particularly in volume. And then what do you want to do on this sixth day? Because if you're adding, particularly in, in volume. Um, and then what do you want to do on this sixth day? Because if you're adding, uh, let's say it's just even another six hard sets to your lower body that week that can catch up with you, um, and, and get in the way of recovery eventually. Yeah. So how it was, was a, my fifth day used to be a mixture. It would be like hamstrings and back, but neither one was worked as hard as this, the single day of back or legs. And so now I wouldn't say it's

a whole other day, but it's probably 50% more of like half a day. You know what I mean? It balances out. So I just split it up. I didn't, I'm not doing, I've reduced one day and increased another. So it's not quite a whole extra day. It is a whole extra day, literally, but it's not quite an additional day,

but it's almost, it's probably half a day, I think. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And so with your, your training, it's been, I mean, for people who, who aren't familiar with you and your transformation, they can, they can go to your, probably your Instagram would be a great place where you've posted a lot of pictures and you've talked a lot about it over the years. And it's,. It's one of the best transformations I've seen in a long time. And I do occasionally, I mean, I hear from a lot of people and just to give credit to a lot of other people out there, I will hear every few months someone do something similar to what you've done. And something that I haven't spoken or written that much about,

and I thought that you'd be a great person to come on the show and talk about it, is what it's like. There's the physical and the psychological dimensions of going from where you were at and your relationship with food and your lifestyle to where you're at now. And, and the reason I say that is because, um, often if, if someone is very overweight, if they're going to get advice from someone, even a, even an evidence-based fitness person, it's going to be very forthright, very blunt, like, well, you just eat too much. You need to eat, you need to eat less. You need to move more, uh, or something along those lines. And yeah, yeah, that's true, but that's not helpful. It's not, it's like telling somebody who is very depressed that they should just cheer up and you just tell them every day they should just cheer up. It doesn't

work. Right. It might actually make them feel crappier. True, true. And so I wanted to bring you on the show for you to talk. I mean, I really, you could probably, there are certainly a fair amount of people who would fit that mold, who are in my orbit, who are probably listening, talk to them in terms of what, what has been successful for you. And, you know, I sent over a few little bullet points of things that I know are, um, at least issues that I've been asked about. And I'd love to hear your thoughts because you've, you've, you've gone through it firsthand. It's one thing for me to offer, um, advice that maybe I've, I think has helped people or has helped people, but you've lived it. And then also, I think you talking about this will help give other people listening who are not

in those shoes some perspective either on how to help somebody like this, maybe who is in their life, or just how to not be as judgy as they say, or at least to have some understanding what other people are going through and why it is not helpful. It is not as easy as, oh, just eat less food. Even though in the end, yes, you do have to get to that point, but how do you get to that point? No, I think this is a very interesting thing to dive into. And the first analogy that pops to my mind is the ability to know and believe in something without understanding its practical applications or how to use it practically. So I believe that light travels at 300

kilometers per second. That is a belief I hold that has zero practical application to me today. I can't use that information. So if I believe that eating less will make me lose weight, that doesn't automatically mean I know how to use that data. And I also think there's this idea compounds with belief in yourself in doing it. And so I really think that you got to know first off that you can do something right. So that you are an able person. When I was first confronted with this, when I first had the idea on my own, I want to lose weight. I had no idea. Like if somebody had sat me down and say, well, how do you do this? I would have just said, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Right. And so I had no point of reference to go like, well, I'm going to cling to this. I believe a guy who eats

predominantly McDonald's can lose weight eating predominantly McDonald's if he reduces what he's eating. Right. I think that's true. I don't think that's like a great strategy, but I think that's true. And so if, if he has to figure out that he can stop eating his fries at halfway or whatever it is, whatever strategy he's going to employ to lose weight, there's like a first step and you gotta, you gotta put that into application. I today can get a lot of use out of like the toughen up, pull your bootstraps up, like Jocko Willenink, like just get up at 3 a.m. and crush yourself, right? Like this idea resonates with me today. It didn't always.

It wouldn't have been useful to me before I made a lot of progress, right? When I didn't believe in myself, when I didn't care about myself, you know, prior to having the idea of wanting to change, I didn't give a crap about myself. And so if you're, it becomes very tricky because I think a lot of people are looking for help for themselves, but then there's a lot of people who are looking for help for their loved ones and suggestions on that. And then we get into a whole thing of like, how do you make somebody want to change on their own? It's a very, very difficult thing to do. I've had basically zero success doing that. But when a person does have that period where they go like, I need to change. I think concentrating on small stuff that's easy

to accomplish and then progressing is kind of the key of what allowed me to get from a person who couldn't do anything in the area to like, I don't think you could give me a challenge today that I wouldn't somehow figure out how to do if I wanted to do it. You know what I mean? Like if you told me to climb Mount Everest, I have no desire to do that. I don't particularly like heights, but like, if I'm into it, I've, you know, ridden 200 miles on a bicycle in a day. And I'm a really big guy to be doing stuff like that because I wanted to. And I, and it took me a while to be able to do it. You know, does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, that, that point of the, the process of change is something that I find interesting and it's, it's applicable to body transformation, but it's applicable to marketing business. I mean, in, areas of life, really where there's any attempt at persuasion, right? At getting somebody to say yes. And there's a whole, it's, I guess, multiple steps. I mean, you have to get somebody's attention. You have to get them to engage with you. You have to get them now to continue listening to what you have to say. They have to believe now what you're saying. They have to come to a conclusion. Then they have to get them now to continue listening to what you have to say. They have to believe now what you're saying. They have to come to a conclusion.

Then they have to make a decision. Then they have to follow through. Then they have to stick with it. There's so much that has to happen. It's a lot. Yeah. Some people, it seems like no matter how skilled somebody is at walking people through that process, the other person, you walking people through that process, you, the other person there,

you have to have that willingness. And some people are not ready to make that change yet. Did you, how did that play out for you? And, and then what was that point where you made a decision to change? Why? So for the majority of my life, I was put on diets that I did not want to be on. And these I perceived as a punishment. So I think if I like from a more external point of view today, look back on it, I go like, no, my grandparents loved me. They were deeply concerned for me. My parents loved me. They were deeply concerned for me. They used the tools they had to hand to do what they thought was right. The way somebody does something and the way we perceive it, these are two separate things, I think. And I wouldn't put the onus of importance on either. I think they are two distinctly separate things. I'm interpreting this as a punishment. I had zero interest. So for a long time, I just kind of was rebelling against this effort that was put on me. When I finally kind of, you know, I've also been addicted to drugs. And so there was not a desire to die, but there was a real carelessness with my body. And then I got involved with a girl.

And I kind of, for the very first time in my life, had this perception of the future that I never really had before. I kind of was living just day by day and not thinking long-term. And when I suddenly had to think long-term and go like, what do I want out of life for real? And now I have another person who's involved and wrapped up with this goal. It became a whole different thing. It was like, oh, I have to change radically. it became a whole different thing. It was like, oh, I have to change radically. I had no idea how to do it. And then there was, you know, years and years of really bad information out there that I was inundated with that were solutions to this problem I'm now seeking to handle. And it was like, you know, your blood

type and what you're eating is the issue. And so that was a year of my life. And then it was carbohydrates and grains are the issue. And that was a big section of my life. And then it was lectins. And, you know, I, I went through all these iterations of looking for a solution before I, before I, before I took that position and went this, I keep making it the responsibility of the food. I keep putting the responsibility of my condition into the food and saying, it's your fault, right? What am I doing? What, what are my actions and behaviors regarding food that are continuing this problem? And when I really kind of changed my point of view and my perspective on it and started looking at some data of like, it really is at its most fundamental when you're dealing with somebody of

my size, just a matter of eating less. It's not even, you need to go exercise at this point. It's just that you're eating too much. You know, I was 550 pounds. I could have, I did lose 80 pounds without leaving my house, like zero exercise, like walk to the bathroom, walk to the chair, walk to the bed. That was my exercise for two months and I lost 80 pounds. And, and like, you know, if you're 550 pounds, that's perfectly fine. I think to, to like start out. That's an easy fitness win, so to speak. Exactly. Yeah. So it took me a long time to cipher through all this stuff. And, and like, I don't, I don't come today with animosity towards the people

that don't eat lectins, although lectins are in almost everything. So I don't think they're really avoiding them completely, but I have some empathy with them and some desire for people to not have that as a presupposition before they act. I think the action is within us. What are we going to do? And refine it later. If you find that raw vegetables give you gas when you're well, you don't eat raw vegetables. There are quick fixes. But I think that when I fell into this trap of, you know, a bunch of different ones, but the easiest one is like carbohydrates, like that carbohydrates were causing this inflammation in me that was causing me to gain weight and be hungry all the time. You know, I wasn't hungry to the point of eating myself to sleep. Like that's not how that works. I do eat too fast. I still eat too fast and I'm losing weight. So those two things, you know what I mean? Don't quite balance out. And I eat carbohydrates. It was really getting data and looking at myself and my habits and how I interact with things and changing that.

It was more of like, well, I'm not going to eat while I watch TV anymore. I'm going to start thinking about what I eat and the portions. And those are the things that made the biggest, most profound long-term effects. Speaking of Jocko, well, it's that extreme ownership kind of mentality, right? It's interesting that you had said that once you started looking toward the future and then started obviously picturing yourself in something of a future and then decided to, it sounds like, Decided to, it sounds like, accept at least a lot of the responsibility for your condition that those changes in your beliefs then allowed you to make better conclusions, better decisions, and then take better actions. But, but before those beliefs changed, it sounds like what you ended up doing, it wouldn't, it wouldn't have been possible. You weren't ready for that,

so to speak, because of what was holding you back previously. Yeah. I wasn't ready for it. I w you know, had my mom, uh, come to me at 13 and said, you need to total ownership. You need to be responsible. That's her thought. That's not my thought. It took a while for it to be my thought. For me to have that thought took a while. You said mostly responsibility. For me, I have to take total responsibility. I think of it in these terms. If a car hits me and I break my leg, I'm not saying that I'm responsible for the car having hit me, but now only I can be responsible for the state that I'm in. What am I going to do with this broken leg? I have to figure out how to

rehab the leg. If I'm sitting and dwelling on it, that's car's fault. What am I doing? It's my leg. How am I fixing my leg? So even if it's the food's fault, even if the US government is subsidizing foods in a really unethical way and pumping everything full of sugar and fat and carbs and making us fat, what that doesn't help me at all. I can't do anything about that.

We don't have to, we don't have to play the game. We don't have to eat. It's up to me at the end of the day until they're showing up at your house. Right. Holding you down and with the fire hose. Yeah. At that point,

then I go like, fuck guys. I go, fuck, guys. I go, come on, guys. Stop doing this to me. But until that, that's the cutoff. But until then, it's all on me. 100%. It's on me.

And this seems to be a very tricky point of view for people to take now because. Because some people would say, oh, well, now this gets into victim blaming. You can't, you know, I have no desire to blame victims. I just think that the act of being a victim is going to force you to continue to be a victim. The way out of being a victim for me has been, what can I do about it? And when I'm thinking, what can I do about it? I'm no longer a victim. I'm responsible. I am now out there going like, what you've done to me doesn't really matter because I own my future. I own my present. I am going to make decisions that allow me to have the existence that I want. If I sit and dwell on what has been done to me by food, I don't get anything done. So it's just not a productive headspace to me. And I've been in

that headspace. I've sat and you drive by McDonald's or the one that really gets me, and it's not even my favorite fast food is Carl's Jr. Seems to have the right blowers. So it hits my nose in a certain way as I'm driving by or walking by if I'm in not that I'm surprised but is that a thing do they have blowers that that I don't know if it's intentional but like I can go within a block or two of a Carl's Jr. and I just get a blast of their chargrill smell and I go like I need that why are they doing this to me? And I've had that feeling like if they weren't advertising to me, if they weren't blowing that delicious smell into my face, I would be much better off. Maybe, but that's what they're doing. So what can I do?

So previously, I'm sure a lot of times you would have pulled into the drive-thru. These days, probably not so much, if at all, depending on it's probably a lot more regimented. And would you say, would you characterize it as what it was as more of an emotional type of eating, just to use a phrase a lot of people are familiar with. And if so, how has that changed for you? How have you gotten that under control? Because if that's something that you struggled with previously, a lot of people reach out to me who have this issue. Yeah, it's funny. I was talking to Lane Norton recently and he said, and we were talking about hunger cues and all of this. And he said, you know, people don't eat themselves to 500 pounds because they're hungry. And I think he's absolutely right. I was not hungry. I, there was a secondary effect of being overfilled that I had become accustomed to enjoying. So whatever,

you know, biological processes happen, dopamine kicks from expanding my stomach to the max. I, I started to like that. And so it had nothing to do with hunger. It was for sure emotional, but it was comforting. It was, um, which is an emotion. Totally. Yeah. Every day I could have this sense of well-being by eating myself silly. Basically one step away from sick is silly in my book. So, you know, One step away from sick is silly in my book. So, you know, not quite to the point where I had to give anything up. And then there would be days where I wished I had that. Like if I just ate a little bit more, would I be vomiting and then not gaining so much weight?

So there are all these, you know, chaotic, irrational thoughts happening. But yes, totally emotionally. rational thoughts happening. But yes, totally emotionally. If I would get nervous, I would rather like go hide somewhere and eat and I would feel calmer and a sense of well-being. Like those are the emotions I associate it with, but certainly anything really good that happened in my life would be celebrated with food and anything really bad that happened in my life would be celebrated with food, which could be every day. And how has that changed for you? And how have you, what has had to change inside you? It sounds like obviously you had to get used to not being so full all the time, but then you probably also had to work out other ways to navigate your life, so to speak, other ways to celebrate things, other ways to deal with stress or setbacks or.

Yeah. And, and, and like looking for things to do with people that are not food-based, which becomes surprisingly difficult. You know, we're, we're just kind of coming out of the holidays. It's, it's a new year, but we just had that. And, and there's like a whole gauntlet of, from like basically Thanksgiving and then it dies a little bit and then it comes up again towards the end of December. But from really from Christmas through new year's where it's just like people want to eat all the time and drink and drink. And, and, and so sometimes I'm the party pooper because I'm not a participant in that anymore, but like, I'm not going to be the guy who's only eating sliced turkey breast on Thanksgiving. I'm not that I've been that in my life. I'm not quite that anymore. Um, but like practicing, uh, temperance and, and, and looking at food and,

and, and it's this thing, like I talked about knowing that, um, you know, the speed of light versus having some practical application for it, knowing that food is an energy source for my body. And then putting that into practical application and learning it in a practical way and using it as an energy source, which takes a lot of willpower, but it does get easier. I'm not saying it's gone. I've been doing this for years now and it's not gone. I still have to remind myself, Carl's Jr. isn't really food. It's a good time. It's entertainment, but it's not what I need from food. treat, I guess. I mean, that's, that's, that's how, you know, if you want to have a treat meal, I don't think you cheating doesn't have to some people, they don't like that terminology. Okay. If I was to talk about treating then fine, whatever semantics, but of course there's, there is a place for that. Uh, and in it, it just needs to be, um, it needs to serve

your, your, your goals. And, And obviously, you know that now. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you, is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. You mentioned this point of seeing food more as, or maybe not exclusively as, but seeing food, at least understanding the dimension of it, that is just fuel, right? And that's something also that I don't know if you've seen, we'll get criticized because that's pretty common among fit people, right? Food is just fuel. And then, and then other people will say, well, no, it's not just fuel. It also does provide enjoyment.

And it also is usually involved in a, it's part of a, of a social get together and it's culture. And there are, there are all these other dimensions to food. And so it is incorrect or, or almost like it is, it is wrong to just label it as fuel. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I don't believe in right and wrong, first of all, which is very tricky for a lot of people. My wife hates this about me, but I don't think right and wrong are true ways to gauge anything. I think right and wrong are opinions. I mean, is killing a baby wrong? Just grabbing somebody's baby and-

For me, absolutely. For me- This is another discussion. I didn't know. So you're a committed moral relativist, really? I am a wholehearted moral relativist through and through. And I just go like, food is whatever the hell you want it to be. Okay. For me, sometimes it's just entertainment and it's just a good time. I am

never going to eat popcorn at a movie theater because I need fuel. That's just not, I will, there would be another choice for me. I'd rather eat a bowl of white rice and some fish. Um, but I have to, for myself really, um, decide how much entertainment I deserve or I need, or is good for me. So when people say all this stuff, it's cultural, it's this, it's that, it's like, okay, for you, it's those things. For a morbidly obese person who needs very little reason to rationalize overeating, maybe it shouldn't be that maybe it, maybe they need a break from it being that, and they might find their path to whatever their goal is a little bit easier if they just considered it fuel for a little bit, you know, and then they could go back to the

cultural aspect and the, you know, whatever, you know, I also get into sometimes thinking about like, why do we have any kind of a reaction to eating food? Like what is happening physiologically when we eat sugar, right. And, and our, and our drive, you know, they do all these tests, like you can fill your stomach on protein and then you see a chocolate cake, and your stomach will make room for it. It's not going to make room for more chicken breast, but it will make room for the chocolate. What is that? That's about some weird historical situation where carbohydrates were super rare, and we

were meant to eat all of them when we came across them. We were not meant to leave a berry bush with any berries on it. We were either carrying them off or stuffing our faces with them. And we just haven't caught up to that physically to the present where like every seven 11 could kill us if we just ate in that fashion, you know? So I like, I don't think, I don't think it's wrong to make it whatever you got to make it, like whatever your goal't think it's wrong to make it whatever you got to make it like whatever your goal is, that's your goal and whatever you got to make it to achieve that goal. That's what you got to do. Yeah. I can appreciate that. I also am of the same mindset. I'm very

pragmatic about it. Food doesn't mean much to me, but that's just because that's a, it's just a, a useful, uh, lens to view it through for, for my lifestyle. I enjoy food like anybody else like you. I'm not the guy who just eats the plate of, uh, the leanest Turkey breast I can find. You know, I talk about eating until sick. Uh, I've, I've gotten close. I stopped because it's actually too painful, but quite a few Thanksgivings in a row, I would eat until I actually couldn't move. I'd just be lying on the couch sweating. But it was, again, the last time I was like,

okay, this is too much. This is unnecessary. I don't need to eat eight plates of food. You know what I mean? But I'll enjoy myself. And then at the same time, though and and i can appreciate what you said it's it's it's being able to change that lens okay entertainment mode and gonna eat good food and i'm not gonna think about the calories i don't care think about the macros i'm gonna eat what i want um uh and then but that's that's the minority

that that lens comes out sometimes but most of the the time, I use the fuel, nutrition. And I do, though, for what it's worth, I do try to make my nutritious food taste good. I don't just eat, you know, boiled spinach and what's the tilapia, you know, an unseasoned tilapia, right? I'm still trying to make it taste good, but, but to your point, that is for me, it's just useful to be able to change those lenses. Yeah. And, and, and again, I think that this is like the problem with when I was introduced to the four hour body and through my lens, the four hour body there, that diet

that was in Ferris's book, which is probably a great diet for somebody that wants to lose a pound or two or whatever. But when he talks about a cheat day, you know, that I'm not, I, when I encountered that, I wasn't looking at it through these lenses that we're talking about. It was just like, well, cheat day means I get to really damage myself. And this was always to the detriment of the entire week. All the hard work was ruined in a single day. And so after a long time of seeing, like, I'm not making any progress on this.

I'm not making any progress on this. I moved it down to a cheap meal. And I could still really destroy a lot of the progress. Yeah. Especially if you add some alcohol, you can gain a fair amount of fat. I mean, it's not going to be pounds. Right. But you're screwing up your week if you're doing that. And so I just think in those terms, it's like people should think about that or maybe not should think about that. But if they're having issues getting to their goals and they're

following these things and not thinking about that, it's just another useful thing to think about maybe. Yeah. Cheat days are something that for, I mean, really since the beginning, I've never recommended for this reason. If we want to take individual meals, of course, that's totally fine, especially in the context of understanding energy balance and understanding that not every excess calorie is stored as fat, but to your point, if you eat 5,000 calories at dinner, that's not going to be conducive to your weight loss goal, regardless of how well you do on the other days. And I've said many times that to this point of weekdays and weekends, and those are often, um, you know, I mean, in the more extreme, it's basically starve yourself throughout the week. So you can gorge on the weekends and that that's, that's very unproductive.

And the more you can make your weekends look like your weekdays, the easier it is to improve your body composition, to improve your body composition, to maintain your body composition. Of course, that does not mean that you can't have some treats and have some entertainment. You can, you can pull out that lens for sure. But, and, and many people, they chime in when I, when I share that little snippet on social media, because they've just learned it through experience like you're saying that it's just easier if you don't have the cheat days

and you just have your meal plan that could have as much variety as you want. You don't have to weigh and track everything, but that you don't deviate too much from it generally. That's basically where you're at. And sometimes you eat a bit more, sometimes you eat a bit less, sometimes you're eating a bit, uh, some different foods. And so it sounds like that that's a, that's also a lesson that you've learned.

Oh yeah, totally. No, no, it's, it's getting on a routine. And then I happen to be, uh, have a job that takes me out of town a lot and And, and I'll find myself really getting put into tricky positions. Like now you're in Mexico city for three months and, uh, none of the hotels have kitchens like in, in your room. And, and so I've got like, you know, a hot plate and a small refrigerator running to the store. Now you have to get creative. Yeah, it becomes very difficult. And I still make it work over the course of three months. But I'm also not beating myself up when it's like, I got to eat the food that they're preparing

for me, even though, you know, lawyers have had long conversations with them about my macros. They're not maybe making it right every day. And I'm not going to, you know, I just have to go like, okay, this isn't going to kill me. So that's a good segue to what I wanted to ask you next about, which is the maintenance side of things. And by that, I don't mean trying to keep your body composition exactly the same. We're always trying to improve it at least a little bit in some way, even if it's just gaining another 15 grams of muscle somewhere on our body. Right. And, and have you experienced any kind of unique challenges that, so you've lost a lot of the

weight. Now you have, uh, this, this physique that it sounds like you probably never had. This is you're in the best shape of your life. And, lot of people on the outside looking in, they may not realize that it's not as easy necessarily to maintain it as it looks. How has that been for you? You know, there's so much to talk about here too, because I think that maintenance is the single most magical thing that I've ever come across for the idea of diet and weight loss. Because I think if you implement it in the midst of dieting down towards a goal, you're training yourself basically on what life is going to be like when you're off your diet or what, you know, if, if you're, if your plan is to maintain the

weight loss, this is, this is your practice at that basically. So it's super valuable in that way. I, I happen to have gone, I have visible abs today. However, I had much deeper lines in my abs when I did like a prep week at the end of a cut. And, and that meant quitting salt and the day before taking photographs, not drinking a lot of water and then carving up right. Like the day of, so all of this happened and then that day i was like how do i maintain this right oh yeah so you experienced that's the the curse of being shredded that's what that's called or anything but that is fat right exactly and and this really which must have like messed with your head because you're like i used to weigh 550 pounds. What am I actually, how do these thoughts make any sense? Totally. Totally. It didn't, it, none of it's rational, but I'm going like, no, I want every

abdominal vein to remain visible forever now. And I want to look at it like 15, 15 times a day. I just want to, I just want to remind myself. Yeah, I have that. That's right. I have ab veins. Rub my fingers over them, you know, feel them through my shirt, stuff like that. And that's not really in the cards for me. It's just not in the cards for me. And so to be fair, it's not in the cards for, I would say, the vast majority of guys and gals who are not on drugs to stay to stay that lean and not feel like complete shit is essentially impossible yeah and and that day i felt like complete shit

and then you looked great oh thank you very much and then i had like uh you know i think i even just had um my uh regular cutting calories that day the day of my photo shoot, but I added salt back and gained nine pounds and was just like, this is not fair. This is not okay at all. I can't not eat salt forever because I need some salt and I get lightheaded and have actually like really low blood pressure. If I don't eat salt. Um, anyway, it was a real thing to wrap my mind around that. Um, that's like something I get to for a very short period of time. And I got to just be happy with my just, just visible abs, you know?

Yep. And I've, uh, I've gone through gone through that. I know exactly what you're talking about. I've done a few photo shoots and got, you know, photo shoot, not stage lean, but photo shoot I had at veins, so pretty lean, right? And I tried to maintain it for a bit and I did, but I noticed, and this is when I was the last time I was that lean. Well, I mean, I'm within striking distance of that, but what I learned is I can maintain, like where I'm at right now, maybe four to six weeks of dieting from that point. And that I can be comfortable at, but the cost wasn't worth it. Low energy, my sleep was disrupted, lower sex drive. I just didn't feel,

I just didn't feel that great. I didn't feel terrible because again, the last time I was that lean, I was in my late twenties and now I'm in my late thirties. So it's a little bit different. Um, but you know, it's something that I also just had to, yeah, I felt like I had to override my feelings with just acceptance of reality, you know? Yeah. No, I mean, you know, there's that, there's all these balances. It's like, if I'm 550 pounds, what is the quality of my life? If I'm 8% body fat, what is the quality of my life? what is the quality of my life? I found the quality of my life to be not great at 8% or 9%, but at 12 or 13%, I'm doing cartwheels. Like I have all the energy in the world. I have actually more cardio ability at 12% body fat. And like, I kind of had to just go like, I can,

you can still see my abs. Like it's not the end of the world, you know? Yep. Only we notice the little differences, you know, where we look in the mirror, even when you're that lean and you just look a little bit even better or you look a little bit worse and nobody else would actually see it. They seem so profound. Those little differences.

So profound. Because there's not a vein anywhere in sight in my abs now. How do you even get out of bed, man? I don't know. That's how I feel some days. Some days it's just getting out of bed in order to find those veins. Were there any struggles? So you've lost all the weight and then now you're transitioning into maintenance. Was there ever a period of where you started to gain weight back or did you run into any issues? I know some people they'll run into issues where, um, after losing a lot of weight, they're afraid to start eating more food, even if they understand energy balance and they understand that it's time that they should be able to eat more or they should eat more.

Did you run into any of those things or any other interesting challenges that you had to deal with to get to where you're at now? Well, even on maintenance, I find that I sweat a lot. So I eat a lot of salt. If somehow it's up one day, I can retain water. And so it's weird. So maintenance, there's always a little bit of a fluctuation there. And it's always ticked up a little bit and then kind of balanced from whatever my cut

was doing. And I try to give myself a five pound window, but I'm also 260 pounds. So five pounds is not the same as like when I talked to my wife and she's 130 pounds and five pounds for her would be way too much. But I did do a bulk and trying to put on muscle. And I really was not for me because it wasn't, I never did, like, you can just eat whatever you want bulk, but it was like a lot more food and actually gaining weight and noticeable weight. And it sounds like nutritious food as well. You're not just totally, no, it was an increase in, it was actually the only thing that didn't increase was protein, but it was just more fat and carbs, but it was all like rice or olive oil or avocados.

These are like my main sources of those things or whole wheat pasta or something like that, or even bread, but it was not Carl's Jr. It was not Pizza Hut. And I gained weight and I just kind of went like, I don't know that I need to try to put on muscle any more rapidly than I can. When you talked about 15 grams, I go like, I got to be okay with that. Whatever I can put on during maintenance, whatever I can preserve when I'm cutting and try to spend more time in maintenance and being okay with that. You know, if I'm being completely fair or Frank, there's a little sicko in me that actually prefers cutting. You know, I want to know that the number's going down. I want to feel some kind of a struggle. And that makes me feel like I'm doing something

positive for myself. And so maintenance is really many layers of working on like, it's okay to not be working towards a lower number. It's okay to be hanging out here and cutting yourself some slack. It's okay to eat the amount of food that you're allowed to eat. I totally understand. If I leaned in one direction versus the other, it would be toward cutting too. It's always nice. Like we even were just saying, it's, it's always nice to be a little bit leaner, have a little bit more vascularity. And I haven't done a lean bulk in, in years. And I, the last one I did, it was productive, but for me, I was okay with, with gaining some weight and gaining some fat because you can just get rid of it. That's fine. I was okay with gaining some weight and gaining some fat because you can just get rid of it.

That's fine. But it was simply the amount of food. Certainly by the end, it was just force feeding myself every day. You know, I got up to, I want to say about 4,000 calories a day. And like you were saying, I mean, I was eating no fast food. I wasn't drinking, you know, half of those calories. I was eating pasta. That was my second dinner. So there was that.

I was having pasta. That was my second dinner. So there was that I was having pasta every day, but I remember I was, I mean, I had to force myself to get that second dinner down and the, the, the feeling of being over full of the time. That's something I never came to enjoy even in the car with the seatbelt. I'm just like, I just felt gross basically. And that was it. I was like, okay, this is not for me. I don't need to, to, to your point. I mean, I'm happy with my body comp. I'm happy with, um, well, I have to be happy with the amount of muscle I have because genetically speaking, this is it. I could gain a small amount here and there over the course of the next few years, probably, but whether I lean bulk or not, it's, it's facing the, uh, the, the, the cold facts of, okay, I'm going to do this for, to make it productive four to six months, anything less than that.

It's just probably not even worth it at this point. After I've been same thing for you, after you lift weights for a long time, you have to commit to it for some time. you lift weights for a long time, you have to commit to it for some time. And then, um, I'm going to feel that way. And I am just going to get fatter, which isn't particularly enjoyable, even if I don't, even if I don't dramatize it and don't make it into a big thing, I don't like it. Um, and, and then I, and then I have to follow that up with a cut. And that's probably a couple of months to get back to where i like to be and what have i gotten for that very there i'm not going to see any difference i'm going to go through that

whole process it could be eight nine months if i did a good job especially if i could if i could drag that lean bulk out and i'm going to look in the mirror i could take before and after pictures and be like nothing changed and and if I did that six times and then I look very specifically and I would say I really specialized in my training. So I'm like, all right, here are the exact body parts that I want to improve. I'm going to do 20 to 25 hard sets per week of those. I'm going to bring everything else down. And then I go through several phases of that. After two years, maybe i'll look at those pictures and be like oh yeah i think my shoulders are a little bit bigger i think right it's like why

yeah i have i can't i'm not i'm not no i you know i had a moment where i was like yeah i'm gonna get giant and then it was like no i'm not what am do? I'm going to be 60 years old, still trying to get bigger. I just want to, I just want to have a happy life, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's part of that. That's just part of the journey, so to speak. And these are, these are common experiences that, that everybody has. And, and I've often said what you basically said about maintenance is once you can get to, to that, that's the about maintenance is once you can get to that, that's the real payoff. Once you can get to the point where you're like, I'm happy with how my body looks. I feel good.

I feel confident. I enjoy my workouts. I enjoy my diet. I eat foods I like. I don't feel like I'm eating more than I want to eat or less than I want to eat. to eat or less than I want to eat. That is, uh, that that's really, I think what, what the majority of people are going to enjoy the most once they get there and they look back on the whole process and they realize that this is something that they can, um, cause that is the whole game for me. Every time I made the decision to start a new diet, it was always just with the idea that I,

I want, I need him want to lose weight. It wasn't ever thinking really much beyond that. It was just, that was as far as if I just lose weight, everything will be fine. That will fix this issue. I never know, you know, maintenance on maintenance after HCG or one of those crazy diets is a joke. You know, you, you, I mean, there is no maintenance component to to that diet or many other diets no they kind of it's starvation and then you're out on your own yeah please don't eat the way you were before maybe yeah but you know i remember or actually maybe please do so then you come back and buy more hcg do it again. Sure. Yeah. There was a diet book I read, which I don't remember what it was. It might have been fit for life, but it was one of those books where it just had a page

that just said over and over again, do not overeat, do not overeat, do not overeat. And it's like, well, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. Right. what does that mean? I don't know what that means. Right. You know, and then I, I sometimes think about that Christian gal who had the church where it was like, you don't get to eat until God makes you hungry. Do you know about this gal? No, no. Wild. I mean, a ton of people lost weight doing this. Um, but it's just like, is that what, is that what it takes? Or is, you know, a little bit of understanding of what my body can eat in a day and not gain weight is super helpful to me.

Because now I know what it means to not overeat. Because the minute I eat more than this, I'm overeating, right? But I never had that on those diets. And I never had that as a goal until I kind of got fed up with dieting and was like, wait a second, I'm doing something wrong. Well, my goal has never been, I want a life without doing a strict diet. I want a life without desperately needing massive weight loss anymore. And so how do I get to that point? And, and it was really kind of looking and thinking about maintenance and going, oh, maintenance, that's just the other word for that is like living life and not gaining weight.

Basically, unless you want to, right? I mean, and, and for, for like, like you said, many people, especially many women that, that I hear from, or that I have heard from over the years who have gone through their own transformation and they get, they, they get down to a body comp they're happy with. it just sounds kind of fun. They eat a bit more food and, and women, uh, in my experience, um, they, especially if they, if they get pretty lean, they're like, well, Hey, if I, if I gain some fat, my boobs are going to get bigger. My butt's going to get bigger. It's not, uh, it's, it's not like it all just goes straight to my stomach or, or, you know, the, the part that I, that I hate the most. And so, so that can be fun just for women in particular, try many guys who are into weight lifting have, have at least tried the, the, you gotta eat big to get big. And, and so they, they know what that's like. But, but to your point, yeah, that, that once you get to that, point. Yeah. That, that once you get to that, that, um, that place where you don't feel like you have to make any more dramatic changes, then I think that it takes on fitness takes on a new

dimension. What about the motivation to keep training though? Because a lot of people that messes with them a little bit because previously they were very goal oriented and they were making steady progress toward that goal. That's very motivating. Then they reach that goal and they understand they have to make a new goal, but, but kind of just staying the same. That doesn't sound very exciting. Doing the same kind of workouts that they've always been doing.

That doesn't sound very exciting. And I'll get asked this, like, so, you know, cause I'm pretty consistent with my training. What, what's your motivation now when, when you didn't have that, that scale going down, down, down, down? Well, yes. And so my motivation now is like the idea of the next cut I do and prep and, you know, to have pictures taken, I want to get a little bit leaner than I was the last time. And I want to, uh, retain a little bit more muscle or have built a little bit of muscle, like whatever that is. So there's that idea of improvement. And then there's also just that, like, I feel better after the gym. It is the single best feeling I have all day. It's not my coffee. It's not after a meal.

It's the minutes after the gym or the hours after the gym where nothing can touch me, where if I was having a shit day, a crap day, sorry, if I was having a terrible day. I swear now and then it's okay. Maybe it's not going to have the explicit label, but it's right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't, we didn't hit any of the real taboo ones, but like, I, I just feel better. Um, when I, uh, when I go and have like a few days of work that don't allow me to get to the gym. I start to feel not great. I start to get a little bit more irritable. So it's just now more than anything, quality of life.

And if I can hit the gym first thing in the morning, I just have a better day. I wish I enjoyed playing pickleball because my friends play pickleball and I know they get that out of playing pickleball. And plus they pickleball and I know they get that out of playing pickleball. And plus they're playing a game, which they enjoy. I like lifting weights. This is what I've found that I like to do. I like progressive overload. I like week one where it's like I'm keeping a little bit in the tank. And I like week six where it's like, I'm real close to failure every time. Like I enjoy that. It's fun. It's a fun game for me. And so that's my biggest motivation now. That's a, that's, that's very similar to, to my answer. And, and again, the,

the, the answer that I hear from many people is they find something about their training that they like often something that I recommend to people is is they find something about their training that they like. Often something that I recommend to people is to make sure that you allow yourself to find training that you like, because if you don't really like what you're doing and now you're not gaining a bunch of muscle and strength or losing a bunch of fat like you were previously, strength or losing a bunch of fat like you were previously, that makes it real easy to get stuck into a rut. So many people, what got them to that point of maintenance, maybe it wasn't the most interesting. Maybe there wasn't much in the way of variety. There weren't many moving parts. It was pretty simple, pretty straightforward, but it worked. Now though, it's just going through the motions and I've been there.

I'm sure you've been there. And just like what you're saying, something that has helped for me is to have a system, not that it has to be complex, but that it is complex enough or that it is, there's enough, enough there to make it a game that I can, I like, I like trying to, to beat my numbers, right? So like to beat my one rep maxes on the bigger exercises. And so in my programming, every four months, I'm doing, uh, some, um, as many reps as possible tests on those big exercises, which is kind of like, okay, what did these last four months get me? And if I'm five pounds up on my squat, I'm super happy. That's actually pretty good for where I'm at. And the fact that I'm not lean gaining and I'm staying fairly lean. And so to anyone listening, I just highly recommend that, especially when you get to that

point where you're like, this is basically the physique that I have. Not much is going to change from here is don't be afraid to try other types of programs. Maybe if you've done a lot of bodybuilding stuff, don't be afraid to try some powerlifting, even if it sounds fun to you or vice versa. If you've done a lot of just barbell banging weights and some bodybuilding sounds fun or seems interesting, go ahead and try it and find something that, like you're saying, Ethan, that you enjoy. You're not going to enjoy every workout. You're always going to enjoy having worked out, but that you generally enjoy, you generally look forward to.

Yeah. I don't look forward to legs. I just don't look forward to it. And then it's probably the best I feel, you know, those two days a week after legs, but it's my least favorite thing to do going into it. And it doesn't change, right? I mean, it's just every time you're like, I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it because I know I'm going to like that. I did it. Yeah. I I'm, I'm personally fearful of power lifting because I had some injuries and I'm personally fearful of powerlifting because I had some injuries and I'm scared of really heavy weights, but I am also trying to increase my cardio this year because there was a point in time where I, in one of my iterations of weight loss was doing competitive rowing on an erg and actually competing with people and doing fairly well for seniors heavyweight.

And I got on an erg recently and was just shot in five minutes. And so I was like, oh, I know I can get good at this. So what are the metrics going to be if I work at this every week and watch my progress? That's going to be a fun thing to do. So like, yeah, building those games, I think is super important. Totally. Yeah. I think that's great advice. And I'm sure we can keep going on and on and on, but I want to be respectful of your time and I have somebody coming soon. So I have to get ready for, uh, it's a TV thing, but they want to, they're sending a crew out to my house. It's like, you know, we don't, we could just do it over the internet, but they insist. So I'm like, okay, I guess we're doing that then.

They want to light you and everything else. Yeah, I guess. Um, but, but no, this was a great interview. I really enjoyed it. And why don't we wrap up with where people can find you, find your work. Let's of course tell them about your podcast. Yeah, American Glutton podcast available where podcasts are available. And you can find me on Instagram at Ethan Suplee.

And any exciting movies that are coming out soon that people should look for, um, dog, a movie called dog with Channing Tatum. That's in February. Is that the one that you were all tatted up for? No, that'll be later this year. That's called, um, God is a bullet, but those will both be out this year. Um, and both should be pretty good. Cool. Yeah. Um, and both should be pretty good. Cool. Yeah. I will check them out. I don't, I don't, uh, make too much time for the problem for me is if, if I watch TV, if I watch a movie, watch anything at night, there's a fair chance it's going to mess with my sleep, unfortunately. And so even if it's just 30 or 45 minutes, if i don't take that time to just let my brain shut down uh i'm gonna probably wake up several times at night i don't have a problem

falling asleep it's staying asleep so i was like well i guess uh i guess i'm no longer uh much of a tv or movie watcher but that's okay yeah then, but there's always a good, like Saturday afternoon. Exactly. There are times, but it's just, you know, not, not, they're only like little windows maybe on the weekends, but, um, but no, I'll make a note of that and, uh, I'll check it out. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you, dude. Yeah. Thanks again for coming on. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did, subscribe to the show because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email,

mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just what your thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode and I hope to hear from you soon.