Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Everything You Need to Know About the Ketogenic Diet

Episode Date: July 27, 2017

In this podcast, I’m going solo to talk about ketogenic dieting because it’s getting more and more hype these days for losing fat, gaining muscle, and improving general health and well-being. The question, of course, is whether or not it can live up to its reputation, and as you’ll see, my current answer is no, it can’t. I’ve done quite a bit of research on it, and my take is that keto dieting makes sense for certain people under certain conditions, but these people are in the minority, and you’re probably not one of them. Here are a few of the things you’re going to learn in this episode... Why what commonly passes for “ketogenic dieting” in the fitness space isn’t true ketogenic dieting. Why the ketogenic diet can help you lose weight faster -- in the short term at least -- but probably can’t help you lose fat faster. Why the ketogenic diet isn’t optimal for gaining muscle and strength, and why a high-protein & high-carb diet is better. How the ketogenic diet can benefit your overall health and well-being. How to know whether the ketogenic diet is right for you or not. And more… 3:17 - Why does fasting suppress epileptic seizures? 4:09 - What is the purpose of the ketogenic diet? 5:21 - How does the ketogenic diet work? 6:33 - Does keto help you lose weight faster than traditional dieting? 14:05 - Does keto help muscle building? 21:35 - What about studies showing that low-carb is better for gaining muscle and strength? 25:50 - Does keto dieting have health benefits? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey everybody, this is Mike from Muscle for Life and I am back with another episode of the podcast. And in this episode, I am going solo to talk about ketogenic dieting because it's getting more and more hype these days for basically everything, for losing fat, gaining muscle, improving general health and well-being and so forth. And the big question, of course, is whether or not it can live up to this reputation. And as you're going to see or hear in this episode, my current answer is no, unfortunately, see or hear in this episode, my current answer is no, unfortunately it cannot. Now I've done quite a bit of reading and research on the subject. And my understanding is that keto

dieting definitely makes sense for certain people under certain conditions, but these people are definitely in the minority and you are probably not one of them. So here are just a few of the things that you're going to learn in this episode. Why what commonly passes for quote unquote ketogenic dieting in the fitness space in particular isn't true ketogenic dieting. Why the ketogenic diet can help you lose weight faster in the short term at least, but probably can't help you lose fat faster. Why the ketogenic diet isn't optimal for gaining muscle and strength and why a high protein and high carb diet is better. How the ketogenic diet can benefit your overall health and well-being and how to know whether the ketogenic diet is right for you. Now, this is where I would normally plug a sponsor

to pay the bills, but I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine. Specifically, my fitness book for women, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger. Now this book has sold over 150,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands of women

build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 1,200 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths that keep women from ever achieving the lean, sexy, strong, and healthy bodies they truly desire, and if you want to learn the simple science of building the ultimate female body, then you want to read or listen to Thinner, Leaner, Stronger, which you can find on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play. All right, that's it for the shameless plugging. Let's get to the show. How did a diet meant for treating epileptic seizures turn into a popular weight loss fad? Well, that's the story of the ketogenic diet,

which was introduced in 1921 by an endocrinologist named Dr. Henry Guylan. Guylan was presenting at the annual meeting of the American Medical Association, and he explained that the ancient Greeks had discovered that fasting was an effective method of managing epileptic seizures. Hippocrates had written about it, and like Gylan, found that seizures would return once eating resumed. Why? What was it about fasting that suppressed the seizures? Well, epileptic seizures are triggered by electrical abnormalities in the brain, and the causes can vary from genetics to brain injury, but more common is chronic inflammation throughout the body. Now, what Guyland found is that when people fast, two major changes occur in the blood. Glucose levels fall and ketone levels rise. Now you've probably heard of glucose,

which is also known as blood sugar, but not ketones, which are carbon oxygen molecules produced by the liver that cells can use for energy instead of glucose. Now this finding fascinated Geiland and he set out to determine if similar effects could be achieved without the starvation. A decade or so of work proved that they could, and the ketogenic diet, as it would later be called, was born. Now, the purpose of the ketogenic diet is to maintain a state of ketosis, wherein the body's primary energy source is ketones, not glucose. Now, early studies showed that the ketogenic diet was an extremely effective treatment for seizures, but in 1938, it was eclipsed by the anti-convulsant drug phenytoin.

This medication became the standard treatment for epilepsy and that effectively retired the ketogenic diet from the clinical scene. As time went on, the diet was all but forgotten and faded into obscurity until recently exploding back into the mainstream in a way that Gylan probably never would have imagined. And this time, the ketogenic diet is being promoted as much more than a mere therapeutic agent. If we are to believe the hype, it's a panacea of sorts, helping us lose fat faster, maintain a leaner physique easier, think clearer, feel better, live longer, and so on and so forth. The big question, of course, is can it deliver on these promises? Well, that's what we are going to be getting to the bottom of in this podcast. And let's start at the top. How does the ketogenic diet work? Now, as you know, the point of the

ketogenic or keto diet is to keep the body in a state of ketosis. And the traditional keto diet called for four grams of fat for each gram of protein and carbohydrate, which is also why it has been known as the four to one diet. Now, the problem with this diet for anything other than medical use is obvious. Protein intake is very low, which isn't optimal for a variety of reasons that we won't go into here. But if you are curious, go to Muscle for Life and search for high protein and check out the article that I wrote on the benefits of high protein dieting. My point here though, is the type of keto diets that are popular today, and especially in the fitness space are generally high protein variations of the original keto diet.

Now, protein recommendations vary, usually ranging between 20 to 30% of daily calories, but in true keto diets, carbon take is set to 50 grams or less per day. The rest of your calories come from dietary fat. So that's keto dieting 101. Let's now tackle the most controversial aspect of the keto diet. And that is, does it actually help you lose weight faster than a traditional higher carb diet? And the answer is absolutely. Now, does it help you lose fat faster though? And the answer to that is absolutely not. And how the hell does that work, you're wondering? Well, the first thing you need to know is how carb intake relates to glycogen storage and water retention. Glycogen is a form of glucose that's stored in the liver and muscle tissues, and the primary dietary source of glucose is carbohydrate. This is

why research shows that increasing carbohydrate intake increases glycogen storage and reducing intake reduces glycogen levels. Now, here's the kicker. Glycogen is stored with three to four parts water. So that means that every gram of glycogen stored in your liver and in your muscles comes with three to four grams of water. Now, when you consider that the average man can store up to about 15 grams of glycogen per kilogram of body weight, and that exercise increases the glycogen storage capacity of muscle, you see just how much weight can change due to fluctuations in glycogen levels alone. For example, I weigh about 87 kilos or 193 pounds, and I have quite a bit more muscle than the average person, and I exercise regularly, and I eat a relatively high carbohydrate diet,

somewhere around two grams of carbs per pound of body weight per day, with some occasional refeeds here and there. And with those numbers, it's hard to predict exactly how much glycogen I'm holding, but a safe assumption is probably 700 to 800 grams. And that means that I'm also holding somewhere around, let's say 2100 to 2400 grams of water. And when you add all that up, you get about six or seven pounds of glycogen and water. Now, what do you think would happen if I switched to a keto diet, which would entail dramatically reducing my carb intake? That's right. I'd also see a dramatic reduction in whole body glycogen levels, which would also flush out a large amount of water as well. And as if all that weren't

enough, research also shows that carb intake also influences fluid retention in other ways. So the simple fact is the more carbs you eat, the more water your body naturally holds, which is one of the reasons why bodybuilders restrict carb intake leading up to a show. And just in case you're wondering on that, when you're very lean, even slight reductions in subcutaneous water can make a big difference visually. So what I'm getting at here is the net result of my switching to a keto diet is I would see a rapid drop in body weight, several pounds just in my first week or two, but I would be wrong to think that that was a rapid reduction in body fat because it wouldn't be. Now that's just the first week or two though. I mean,

how does it play out from there? Am I going to lose fat faster with the keto diet versus a higher carb diet? Well, the answer is probably not. Now I know that there are a handful of studies that low carb evangelists love to bandy about as irrefutable proof that they have a better mousetrap and that low-carb dieting is better for fat loss. And it probably all sounds very scientific and convincing and understandably wins new converts every day. There is, however, a big gaping hole in the research and it relates to protein intake. Namely, every single low-carb weight loss trial that I've seen being used to sell that ideology has a major flaw. The low-carb diets contain more protein than the low-fat ones. Yes, one for one without fail. Now, this presents us with a serious problem

because it means that we're not looking at a true apples to apples comparison of diets instead we're looking at how a high protein and low carb diet fares against a low protein and high fat diet and yes the former wins every time but is it because of the low carb or high protein element? Now, anti-carbers will tell you that it is the low carb magic that's doing it, but are they right? Well, to know that, we would need to look at weight loss trials that kept protein intake high in both the low and high carb groups. And lo and behold, I know of four studies that meet those criteria, and their findings are summarized by this from one conducted by researchers from Harvard university. And I quote, reduce calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss, regardless of which

macronutrients they emphasize. In other words, so long as you maintain a caloric deficit, raising or lowering carbohydrate intake doesn't significantly impact weight loss. It's also worth quickly reviewing a recent and rather extensive meta-analysis conducted by researchers from several universities that involved a review of 19 weight loss trials. And I quote, trials show weight loss in the short term, irrespective of whether the diet is low carbohydrate or balanced. There is probably little or no difference in weight loss and changes in cardiovascular

risk factors up to two years of follow-up when overweight and obese adults with or without type two diabetes are randomized to low carbohydrate diets and isoenergetic balanced weight loss diets. That is, if you're restricting your calories, there's really not a big difference between low carb and high carb when protein intake is matched. Now, last but not least, I should also mention that I've worked directly with thousands of people helping them lose thousands and thousands of pounds collectively. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that

you can get the body of your dreams eating the carbs that you love. Now that said, there is an exception worth talking about. And that is every once in a while, I run into someone that is lean and they're trying to get really lean, but are finding it inexplicably hard to get rid of those last bits of stubborn fat. And unfortunately, some people have insulin sensitivity issues despite exercising regularly and being healthy and relatively lean and thus don't respond well to high carb dieting. The two most common symptoms of this that I see is sluggishness and bloating after eating carbs. And as I noted earlier, stubborn fat deposits that are just

strangely hard to eliminate. Now you might be wondering why insulin resistance can make it harder to lose stubborn fat. And the reason is pretty simple. Insulin resistance impairs muscles ability to oxidize or burn carbohydrate, which means a greater proportion of the carbs that you eat is diverted to the liver to be turned into fat. And when you're trying to whittle down the last bits of body fat, any additional fat storage that's occurring can noticeably hinder your progress. So when this is the case, the sensible thing to do is work with and not against the body and reduce carbohydrate intake. Now, that doesn't mean that these people have to go on the keto diet. Carb cycling, for example, can be particularly effective for people that are

struggling with insulin sensitivity issues and is far more enjoyable and suitable for athletes, weightlifters, and the like. All right, that's more or less everything you need to know about keto dieting and fat loss. So let's shift gears here and now talk about muscle building. So for at least a century now, bodybuilders have known of the correlation between carbohydrate intake and strength and muscle growth. Their observations were simple. The more carbs you eat, the stronger you are in the gym, and the stronger you are in the gym, the better you can overload and grow your muscles. Now, given what we know about how carbs affect blood sugar and glycogen levels, this makes sense. Eat carbs and you feel energized, and your body is able to synthesize glycogen, which is then used as fuel for intense exercise.

This is why research shows that a high carb diet improves exercise performance primarily by keeping your muscles quote unquote full of glycogen. This is also why studies show that low carb dieting impairs weightlifting performance in particular. And if you have any doubts about that research, just try cutting your carb intake in half for a couple of weeks and replace those calories with fat and watch how your lifts plummet. Now, there are other muscle building benefits to high carb dieting as well. And to understand them, let's quickly review the physiology of muscle growth. Every day, trillions of cells in your body are dying and being replaced. This is known as cell

turnover, and it's regulated by a complex system of proteins and hormones. Now the process by which proteins are created to replace degraded cells is known as protein biosynthesis or just protein synthesis. Now under normal health and dietary circumstances, the cellular degradation and regeneration rates remain more or less balanced. And this is why your total lean mass remains more or less level on a day-to-day basis. Now, when you engage in resistance training, one of the byproducts is damaged muscle cells that must now be replaced. This, by the way, is the real cause of muscle soreness, not lactic acid buildup, as some people think.

And these cells don't just need to be replaced, but added to. Your body wants to adapt to better deal with the stimulus that caused the damage, right, the weightlifting or the resistance training. And it accomplishes this by adding cells to the muscle fibers, which makes them bigger and stronger. As you can imagine, this process requires higher than normal levels of protein synthesis. And as far as building muscle goes, the higher protein synthesis rates are the better. You see, when you view all this through the lens of protein metabolism, muscle growth is simply protein synthesis rates exceeding protein breakdown rates. The difference between muscle protein synthesis

and degradation rates is known as muscle protein balance. So if over time your body synthesizes more muscle proteins than it loses, that's a positive balance and you gain muscle. If it doesn't, that's a neutral or negative balance and you don't. Thus, strategies to increase protein synthesis and or decrease protein degradation accelerate muscle growth. Now this, by the way, is one of the reasons that steroids are so effective for building muscle. They increase protein synthesis rates and in some cases also decrease protein degradation rates. Now, how do carbs relate to all this, you're wondering? Well, research shows that glycogen availability directly influences protein synthesis and degradation rates. Simply put, low-carb diets result in lower levels of

protein synthesis than high-carb ones. Another way that carbs affect muscle protein balance favorably has to do with insulin production. Now, in case you're not familiar with it, insulin is a hormone that's released by the pancreas that shuttles nutrients from your blood into your cells. It also has anti-catabolic properties, which means that when insulin levels are elevated, breakdown of muscle proteins is suppressed. Now, as insulin production is stimulated by eating food and by eating carbs in particular, it's not surprising that people following a high-carb diet generally have higher insulin levels than people following a low-carb

one. This is undesirable if you're sedentary and overweight, of course. Carbs are primarily energetic, and if you don't move your body much, you have no need for excessive amounts of food energy. Elevated insulin levels are highly desirable, though, if you're trying to build muscle because it's a more anabolic environment in which muscles can grow larger quicker. This, by the way, is one of the reasons why many bodybuilders inject insulin several times per day when they eat, which is very dangerous and which I most definitely do not recommend. Now, all of this isn't just theory. Research conducted by scientists at Ball State University found that low muscle glycogen levels, which is inevitable with low-carb dieting,

impairs post-workout cell signaling related to muscle growth. Another study conducted by researchers at the University of North Carolina found that when combined with daily exercise, post-workout cell signaling related to muscle growth. Another study conducted by researchers at the University of North Carolina found that when combined with daily exercise, a low-carb diet increased resting cortisol levels and decreased free testosterone levels. Cortisol, by the way, is a hormone that breaks down tissues, including muscle, and testosterone is the hormonal driver of muscle growth. So when it comes to building muscle, you want low resting cortisol and high free testosterone levels, which is more or less the opposite of what a low carb diet produces. Now, these studies help explain the findings

of other studies on the matter of carbs and body composition and performance. For example, a study conducted by researchers at the University of Rhode Island looked at how low and high carb intakes affected exercise-induced muscle damage, strength recovery, and whole body protein metabolism after a strenuous workout. Now, what they found is that the subjects on the low-carb diet lost more strength, recovered slower, and showed lower levels of protein synthesis than their high-carb counterparts. It's also worth noting here that the quote-unquote low-carb group wasn't really all that low. They were eating about 220 grams of carbs per day versus the high-carb intake of about 350 grams per day. And these effects became even more pronounced as carb intake further decreased from there. Yet another study worth mentioning was conducted by researchers at McMaster University, which compared high and low carb dieting with subjects performing daily leg workouts. Subjects

on a low carb diet, which was about 30% of daily calories allotted to carbs, showed higher rates of protein breakdown and lower rates of protein synthesis than the high-carb dieters, which were getting about 60% of the daily calories from carbs. The result, of course, was less overall muscle growth among the low-carb dieters. So here's the bottom line. The evidence is abundantly clear. High-carb dieting is superior to low to low carb dieting for building muscle and gaining strength. Now, this is something that bodybuilders have known for over a century now, going all the way back to the days of Sandow and why I myself am generally an advocate of high carb dieting for gaining muscle and strength and for preserving muscle while in a caloric deficit. And specifically, I myself never drop

my carb intake lower than about 0.8 grams per pound of body weight per day when I'm cutting, and I'll go as high as two to two and a half grams per pound per day when I'm bulking. Now, before we move on, I do want to quickly address some of the research that is out there that indicates otherwise, that suggests that low-carb dieting is in fact better for gaining muscle and strength than high-carb dieting. For example, one of the studies that's often cited to argue for the superiority of keto dieting for building muscle was conducted by researchers at the University of Connecticut. And here are the details. 20 men participated and 12 of them switched to a keto diet for 42 days

and performed, and I quote, a variety of different aerobic and weight training routines. Now, both the high and low carb groups were in a caloric deficit. And the result was the low carb group lost about seven pounds of fat and gained just over two pounds of muscle, whereas the high carb group lost no fat and gained under one pound of muscle. Now, based on what you already know about why reducing carbs doesn't accelerate fat loss and how carbs relate to building muscle, you have to wonder where's the fly in this soup. And when you look, you find it. So the first problem with this study is the difference in protein intake between the two groups. Subjects on the keto diet ate close to 180 grams of protein per day, whereas the high carb group

ate only 80 grams of protein per day. Now, 80 grams of protein per day for a weightlifter and especially one in a caloric deficit is pitifully low. And as you already know, when caloric intake is matched, high protein dieting trumps low protein dieting every time. The second problem with this study is the ambiguity on the exercise programs followed. Based on the wording that I gave you earlier, we don't really know what the people were doing exactly. And it sounds like everybody was doing something different. So all this study really shows is that a high protein, low carb diet is probably better for losing fat and building muscle than a low protein, high carb one. And that's not too exciting. We already know that. Another study that is precious to keto

dieters was conducted by researchers at the University of Tampa. And in that study, 26 college-aged and resistance-trained men were divided into a ketogenic diet group and a traditional Western diet group. The keto dieters got about 5% of calories from carbs, 75% from fat, and 20% from protein. And the Western dieters got about 55% of calories from carbs, 25% from fat, and 20% from protein. Protein intake in grams was matched, and so was caloric intake, and all subjects lifted weights three days per week on the same program. Now, what were the results? Well, after 11 weeks, the low carb dieters gained an average of nine and a half pounds of muscle and lost nearly five pounds of fat. And the high carb dieters gained an average of about five pounds of muscle and lost just over

three pounds of fat. And if you're wondering how that works exactly, that's a good question. And we can't really know because you can only access the abstract and not the full paper. I'm skeptical though, for a couple of reasons. First, the study's author mentioned during his presentation that the low carb subjects carb loaded at the end of the 11 week period. And as you know, this rapidly increases glycogen water storage, which registers as lean mass gained. And second, this is the same research group that gave us the infamous HMB study that quote-unquote proved that the natural supplement HMB is basically as effective as steroids. And yeah, that's just not possible under any circumstances. And I'm

saying that as someone who not only sells supplements, but who sells a supplement with HMB in it. I wish I could say that it can do what that study suggested, but it can't. Anyway, to get back to the subject at hand, if you're like me and you just prefer to go with the preponderance of evidence, the keto diet just isn't ideal for building muscle. End of story. Alright, so now that we've tackled the main reasons that people turn to keto dieting, losing fat, and or building muscle, let's return to its roots, and that's health. Now as you already know, ketosis is an effective therapy for seizures, but research shows it has other health benefits as well. For example, type 2 diabetes is a metabolic disorder characterized

by high blood sugar and insulin resistance. Now, given the nature of the disease, it stands to reason that people afflicted with it would benefit from a low-carb diet. And that's exactly what research shows. Now, specifically, studies show that when people with type 2 diabetes restrict their carbohydrate intake, several biomarkers and symptoms improve markedly. In fact, the keto diet can be so effective in managing the disease that exogenous insulin, insulin injected, introduced from the outside, may be able to be withdrawn within just weeks of starting. So the bottom line is people with diseases related to carbohydrate metabolism, like type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome, and people that are just having problems with

insulin resistance in general, are very likely to benefit from low-carb dieting. Scientists also believe that a low-carb diet may be an effective adjunct to traditional cancer therapies, and there's mounting evidence that they're right. You see, research shows that insulin can contribute to the growth and proliferation of cancer cells by stimulating multiple mechanisms in the body. Studies also show that tumor cells quote-unquote feed on glucose, metabolizing it at much higher rates than normal tissues. Thus, reducing your carb intake reduces your blood sugar levels, which in turn can reduce the proliferation of cancer cells in the body. is acne because a number of studies have been published in recent years linking certain food types with the development of acne. And top on the list are high glycemic carbohydrates and dairy. Now, this is also borne out by observational research showing that the prevalence of acne

is substantially lower among peoples following non-Western traditional diets that are lower in carbohydrate. The underlying mechanisms here relate to the production of several hormones, including insulin and insulin-like growth factor 1 or IGF-1. These hormones are significant because they can influence several factors underlying the development of acne, and a ketogenic diet has been shown to be effective in improving acne symptoms. Lastly, we have neurological diseases because studies show that low-carb dieting may have therapeutic use in treating neurological disorders other than epilepsy. Examples of this include neurotrauma, headaches, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease,

sleep disorders, brain cancer, autism, and multiple sclerosis. Now, scientists don't fully understand the mechanisms behind this, but research suggests that it has to do with the diet's neuroprotective effects. All right. So considering everything that we have just covered, I think it's clear that the ketogenic diet just doesn't make sense for everyone. So here's how I see it. One, if you have type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, cancer, or a neurological disease, then the keto diet may be advisable. Check with your doctor first, of course, but there is considerable research that it can help you. Two, if you are overweight and sedentary, your diet should be low in carbohydrate. Now,

the keto diet may be unnecessarily low in carbs, but you have no need for more than maybe 0.5 grams of carb per pound of body weight per day if you are not physically active, and especially if you are overweight and not physically active. Three, if you are struggling with acne, then eliminating high glycemic carbs and reducing carb intake in general may help. And reducing dairy intake may help as well. And finally, if you are physically active, healthy, and have good insulin sensitivity, and are looking to build muscle and lose fat, then the ketogenic diet isn't for you. As promising as some people may make it sound, the keto diet just

isn't suited to these circumstances. Instead, the exact opposite type of diet is where you'd want to begin, which would be a high carb and moderate slash lower fat diet. And it's worth adding that if you want to reap some of the ketone-related benefits of ketogenic dieting without having to actually do it, then I would recommend you check out Intermittent Fasting and Martin Burkhan's Lean Gains Protocol in particular. So to wrap up and summarize, like many diets, the keto diet isn't a cure-all or a wonder regimen. It has its advantages and disadvantages, and it's appropriate for some people and it's inappropriate for others. So I hope this episode has helped you better understand the keto diet, how it works, who it's best for, and whether or not it's for you. Thanks again for listening,

and I will catch you in the next episode. Hey there, it's Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did and don't mind doing me a favor, then please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening from. This helps other people find their way to the show and learn how to build their best bodies ever as well. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then simply subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on new episodes. And if you didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at Mike at muscle for life. And that's just spelled out muscle, F O R life.com and share your thoughts on how I can make this better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback.

So thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon. Oh, and before you leave, let me quickly tell you about one other product of mine that I think you might like. Specifically, my flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, this book has sold over 200,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of men and women get the bodies they really want eating the types of food that they really love, which is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring, bland, quote unquote, body building diet.

And if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle, losing fat and getting healthy, then you wanna pick up the Shredded Chef today, which you can find on all major online retailers like Audible. Yes, there are audio book cookbooks. It is a thing. Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play.