Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - How Jordan Lost 50 Pounds and Gained Muscle and Strength

Episode Date: March 18, 2016

In this episode of the podcast I interview Jordan, who used my Bigger Leaner Stronger program to build the body he always wanted. We talk about switching from brodieting to flexible dieting, cutting while traveling, intermittent fasting, and more. Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/  

Hey, it's Mike, and this podcast is brought to you by Legion, my line of naturally sweetened and flavored workout supplements. Now, as you probably know, I'm really not a fan of the supplement industry. I've wasted thousands and thousands of dollars over the years on worthless supplements that basically do nothing, and I've always had trouble finding products actually worth buying, and especially as I've gotten more and more educated as to what actually works and what doesn't. And eventually after complaining a lot, I decided to do something about it and start making my own supplements. The exact supplements I myself have always wanted. A few of the things that make my products unique are one,

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then I guarantee you'll like my books. I make my living primarily as a writer. So as long as I can keep selling books, then I can keep writing articles over at Muscle for Life and Legion and recording podcasts and videos like this and all that fun stuff. Now I have several books, but the place to start is Bigger Leaner Stronger if you're a guy and Thinner Leaner Stronger if you're a girl. Now these books, they're basically going to teach you everything you need to know about dieting, training, and supplementation to build muscle, lose fat, and look and feel

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That's muscleforlife.com forward slash audiobooks, and you'll see how to do this. So thanks again for taking the time to listen to my podcast. I hope you enjoy it, and let's get to the show. Hey, this is Mike. And in this episode of the podcast, I am going to interview someone named Jordan. Jordan reached out to me maybe over a year ago now, after he had read Bigger, Leaner, Stronger and was going to get on the program. And he had started maybe about 240 pounds or so and got down to about 180 pounds and gained a bit of muscle and strength in the process. So he eventually went up on the website as a success. And I thought it would be

cool to do, I was thinking maybe do like one a month where I reach out to someone like Jordan. Maybe I'll do a guy and then a girl and a guy and a girl and kind of hear from them what the process has been like getting into better shape and what are the issues they've run into and how did they overcome those problems, those obstacles, and kind of just let the conversations go where they're going to go. Like in this case, you'll see what Jordan talk a bit about traveling because for his work, he was traveling a lot while he was cutting. How did he make that work? Cause that can be tricky. Talk about intermittent fasting because that has helped him and something he has continued throughout, even though in my books, bigger than you're stronger, or they don't need a strong, which are like the main kind of, at least that's where most guys and girls should start. I don't necessarily recommend intermittent fasting. I don't say that you should be doing it.

It's not that you shouldn't do it, but most people are going to find that eating three to five or maybe six meals a day is going to be generally more enjoyable than fewer, but some people like fewer meals. And so we talk a bit about that and those, you know, the scenarios where IF maybe even makes more sense than a traditional diet structure and vice versa. And, uh, and then we get into some business stuff and, you know, in the end, he asked me a question, asked if he asked me a question and it's business related. So I thought that'd actually be cool as well. At the end of the podcast that I, you know, these interview type podcasts, let whoever, you know, whoever I'm interviewing, let's what, what's their one big question for me and whatever it is, if it can be a diet, it can be diet training, supplementation, life business. I don't know. Whatever you want to ask me is, is, and I'll just roll with it. So, uh, hope you liked the podcast. Let me know. Let me know if

you like this idea, if I should do more like this again, I was thinking like one a month would be cool. Um, and, and then, you know, and the rest just either be me monologuing or, or a guest, uh, you know, talking about whatever it is that we're, we would talk about. Uh, okay. So let's get to the podcast and please do let me know what you think of it. All right. Hey, Jordan, thanks for coming on the podcast. You're, you're the Guinea pig for, uh, whatever kind of template, whatever we're going to call this. You're the guinea pig for whatever kind of template, whatever we're going to call this. I feel like once a month I want to talk with real people. And, I mean, obviously I have a lot of people I can just reach out to that have done my stuff, so I might as well do that.

But it's not just to plug my stuff per se. More just to talk about your experiences with, you know, yeah, sure, it could be bigger than a stronger, but also just with, um, that the diet and training philosophies that it's not just what I teach, but you know, that this flexible dieting is becoming the thing now, heavy strength training is becoming the thing now. And you know what I mean? So I thought it'd just be good to get, I, I, I ramble on and on and on about this stuff, but to get other people's perspectives. Yeah, no, definitely. Well, thanks for having me. It's good being the first guinea pig to see how this goes. But yeah, just to give a little background about myself, I started weightlifting probably when I was in my teenage years, probably around 16, 17. Every kid just wants to get big.

You see all those girls, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I started weightlifting of course i was like yeah i was 17 and i started to realize that like that's in that age where you know girls are 17 18 19 20 like okay these girls like muscles so i'm gonna i'm gonna get some muscles yeah right and then like back at that time you're looking at like like brad pitt and thinking he's like jack yeah you know like a fight club it's just and then in troy he was like literally massive i remember i remember in the theater like oh yeah no absolutely so yeah i got started uh working out then um you know just kind of did the typical like i have two older brothers

so i would usually go with them to the gym uh just kind of do whatever they did uh just kind of follow and then you know read on whatever magazine they were trying to push you know smash your chest with 600,000 exercises in one day and all that stuff so I mean I did that and it was it was all right I mean I you know gained a little bit of muscle obviously because you're gonna gain muscle with any kind of resistance training you know the new especially at that age I mean it's hard to over train so you just oh you can waste your time being efficient but at that age your hormones are out of control. Exactly. And you're sleeping a lot and eating a lot.

Definitely. And that's something that I got really fond of, which got me to the weight, where I started cutting on muscle for life. But yeah, I just got started to it, like you said, like everybody else. And then I never really got too serious with it. I kind of had different views on it, you know, wanted to, you know, the whole eat big, get big kind of thing. I stuck with that, but I wasn't really, I wouldn't say like I was like super strong. I mean, like I remember when I was maybe like 215,

220 pounds. I mean, like that picture when I, that I had on, as I started my transformation, you know, I was the max I was, I was the max i was i was like almost 240 i was a big i was just a fat like a fat guy and like it was and i just thought i was like you know jacked and like you know yeah it's stupid kind of so um it was funny too because when i got up to that weight you know all throughout college i i worked at the at the cheesecake factory so you know i had like all this you know 3 000 calorie salads at your disposal i had all i had full access to all that stuff so i was like all right well you know i just got to eat big to get big so you know eating cheesecake every night all this stuff just horrible for you just not really realizing but even when i

was that weight like when i was like 235 240 i would still be struggling with like 225 on the bench like i wasn't strong because you know i didn't do really i didn't have any strength training it was just that typical like you know 8 to twelve reps yeah i mean this is my this is my story i the same thing i mean i didn't get up to that i didn't get up to that heavy but you're lucky i don't think i could i actually don't think i could get up to two it would require i would just be straight obese if i were to yeah i was i was probably probably you weren't you you but for me i just know my body. Like, I'd have to eat 10,000 calories a day and just get obese, basically.

Oh, yeah. I mean, well, McDonald's, Burger King, and cheesecake every night, I'm pretty sure. And also, it's kind of Ben and Jerry's, you know, because it's going to make you strong. So, God, that was horrible. But yeah, no. So then, it eventually, you know, that was throughout college and stuff. I kind of leaned down a little bit, but little bit, but never really got under 200 pounds. I was always pretty heavy.

I stayed up at that weight for a while. Like I said, one day after a night of eating pizza and drinking beer and stuff like that, I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, I see everyone on Instagram and Facebook and all like even like I just started reading your, your stuff. And I was like, you know, these people,

they got to, I'm like, I just got to stop being such a, like just such a fat kid and, you know, just actually put the work in and do it. I'm like, you know,

by working out, like I want to get stronger. I want to get more muscle mass, but I don't want to be carrying around, you know, all this extra weight and have like pants that barely fit me and stuff like that. Just like uncomfortable.

And like, you go up a flight of stairs, you had a breath and just like all that stuff. When you put on your seatbelt, you're like, God, as I had, it kind of tucks under.

Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, just really uncomfortable. So, I mean, I,

like I said, I started doing research and I started reading your articles. Uh, just like I said, like when I started this whole transformation, I was actually, um, traveling back and forth to, uh, boston massachusetts for a product that was on for my company and um you know just kind of reading your articles i remember reading it uh

just waiting for my flight and then i saw your book and i was like oh let me just you know pull my ipad i bought it started reading it right then and there and i was like all right this guy he's on to something like all right i see what see what you're doing here and uh and then eventually i was like you know what and like pretty much that day i was like all all right, this guy, he's on to something. Like, all right, I see what you're doing here. And then eventually, I was like, you know what? And then pretty much that day, I was like, all right, I'm just going to download. Because I had minor success with using, what's that calorie tracker? MyFitnessPal. Yeah, I had minor success in the past. But then again, I went down from 240 to 220.

And then kind of hovered around that. So I downloaded that. And then just from there, I mean, I was using that every day. And then, you know, I would travel on Sunday night through Friday, I think Friday night. So then I'd try to go to the gym, you know, just three days a week. Let's talk a little bit. How did you make that work with traveling?

Because I've written an article about it a while ago. It's probably like due for an update or a more in-depth treatment. But that is something that I know a lot of people run into. It is trickier. So how did you manage that? Absolutely. So like I said, I really didn't go. I try to focus on just going to the gym those three days a week.

So just the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I really just did a chest and shoulders kind of thing. And then thing. And then like a back, like a push, pull legs. Yeah. It's pretty much what I did. Um, looking back on it, but then, you know, maybe during the week, uh, I would try to just do some, some basic body weight stuff just in my room, like at night after, you know, after work and after I went to dinner or something like that, uh, you know, pushups, sit up, stuff like that. And then, uh, some of the hotels I stayed at, you know, had a gym. I would go there, maybe do a little bit, just like maybe a quick circuit but i wasn't i wouldn't say i really did that too too often when i was at work because i was it was you know 80 plus hours a week

and then traveling on top of it so it was it was insane yeah um but yeah and then and then once i i started noticing you know that was in september that's when i started how did you do with your food so with my food uh it was great because Because, again, like, since I was traveling, and my company was, you know, paying for everything, I was able to manipulate everything, you know, even if it cost more, it didn't really not like I had no price, but also a lot of the things I stuck to pretty much the same meals a day, like every day, I'll eat the same thing. And what would you eat? Because there are a lot of people, again, where money's not the problem. They're just't understand logistically. Because also, did you have to go to dinners with people? Yeah.

You know what I mean? So how did you? usually skip breakfast to be honest with you i usually just because that's what was for me you know i i after started again reading into the intermittent fasting and all that stuff um so breakfast would be you know a coffee probably like a like a giant iced coffee from you know one of the places around and i had lunch maybe around 12 12 30 and i'd usually just go to chipotle or like a similar you can get an idea exactly and like a lot of the places and if i didn't go to a place like that where they didn't have the nutrition calculator say if i went to like a sandwich place and i would use like another place like i would use i know like subway or like someone has like the the nutritional information on there that um yeah i don't like it yeah exactly it'd be the

same thing like oh well you're eating a medium-sized blueberry muffin so yeah it's not the exact brand but what are most blue alcalde i'll just take i'll take the high one out of those yeah exactly or like exactly so that and also you know since i was in the city i was i was walking more which definitely helped i mean because i just i enjoyed it you know i walked everywhere so yeah these are good tips and these are all like that's the same even when if i'm out traveling and i'm i'm not usually cutting because these days i'm kind of just maintaining. I'll make a point of that of trying to walk.

Because I think you probably burn about 600 calories per hour walking. So if you do a few hours of walking, and that, of course, counts wherever you walk. It's not just like you have to be outside on the sidewalk walking. So if you can rack up a few hours walking per day, it makes a big difference oh absolutely yeah no i would i'd walk a lot and then you know you always walk in to get lunch you're walking to go dinner you're walking back to your place or whatever you guys are doing for the day um you know so that was that was a big thing i mean i just enjoyed it and also uh you know that helped and i started noticing right from there like as soon as for the first week i probably dropped like three or four pounds and i got it i know it's like the initial water

weight you know because i'm starting to track and getting serious. But then, you know, after a couple of weeks, I started to notice, you know, how my suits, my pants and my suits don't fit anymore. I'm like, I need to get it. So just like it was the good problems that you have when you're losing weight. And then that was in September. That project probably wrapped out around the middle of November. And then so that was about, you know, two and a half months I was on that, did the traveling. And then once, you know, I came back, I had, you know, a little bit more time to work out.

So I broadened it up to maybe about four days a week. And I was doing the traditional, you know, the muscle for life. I was doing chest. Chest and usually triceps, back and biceps, shoulders, and also legs. And again, like I said in my uh in my little uh a little blurb about my my uh success story i really liked working out that way again like i i always stuck to the higher rep range and then once i once i read that i was like you know this this makes more sense than what you know i read in a magazine or i read in this article that some you know

roided out bodybuilder was telling me you have to do 4,000 reps of chest. And then that muscles don't know weight. They only know tension. Yeah. Just do 150 reps per workout. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, all right, well I could do, you know, 15 pounds dumbbells or I could do, you know, a hundred pound dumbbells and I'll get more or say the results of the ladder. But yeah, so I started following that.

And then also I just used the Notes app in my iPhone, and I was just tracking every week, chest, digital, all the workouts. This is the weight last week, and this is how many reps I hit every set. And then I would try to beat it once I hit the six reps. I would try to, for all three, if I was in that rep range, I'd try to add a couple, five pounds or whatever. And again, I used that all throughout. and I noticed that I was getting stronger. So I was like, why is my bench going up and I'm losing body weight? And I'm like, now, um, you know, let's say fast forward a little bit. I'm like, I'm in, I'm in the one eighties,

you know, and I'm benching more. Like I said in the beginning, like when I was two 20 and I'm like two 25, isn't really that hard anymore. Like I'm getting stronger. I'm like, I just never, never trained that way for strength. And I mean, it was awesome. So I really, I enjoyed, you know, using those methods and also, uh, again, just the diets, the diet recommendations kind of following that with the, with the macros, uh, high protein, you know, moderate carbs, kind of lower on the end fats. Um, again, that was all kind of attributed. So it was the culmination of all those things that I was, you know, working kind of lower on the end fats um again that was all kind of attributed so it's the culmination of all those things that i was you know working towards and getting to eventually where i had my uh my point was like all right i was like i i don't look like how i used to look without a shirt um so so the thing about that it was you know that was i believe it

was in february the beginning of february when i when i was on featured on your on one of the social medias i think around then so you know that time of course me like i always had the mindset and i still do like i want to be as big as possible like so i'm like all right i have i'm like i don't i don't want to lose this i'm like i don't want to lose i want to stay at this body fat but you know i want to try working on getting stronger and yeah so like pretty much what i did um and again i don't know if you want to get into like kind of leading up to like after there like where i am now where like um that went on i'm following your lead okay um yeah so i mean all throughout that was in february i tried to kind of do like a little bit of a bulk and kind of like a mini you know like i remember like sending you an email about it or something like you know a long time ago yeah um it was probably like a month month and a

half and then i was like all right well it's you know end of march april you know summer's coming up again i live uh in like a beach town in new jersey so i'm like you know obviously i want to i still want to be able to take my shirt off and not you know feel like a total mess yeah um but yeah and then it's the curse of of the of getting lean lean is then if you're not at your leanest, then you kind of just feel fat. That's the neurosis. That's what it turns into. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it doesn't matter.

If you get down to – it doesn't matter what it is. Like if you compete or if you just did it for a photo shoot or just for fun, if you get super lean, anything but that now is not good enough. Exactly. Unfortunately. And you just learn how to deal with it psychologically. You just have to tell yourself to settle down basically. i know it's like it's like the thing like um but yeah no and that's and that's pretty much what it was i was like all right it's summertime i'm just gonna maintain so i used a lot of the principles i mean i ate a little more yeah but i

did use like the intermittent fasting like i use that you know all throughout the summer i i tried to you know i was drinking coffee for breakfast and then try to eat a lunch or like you know if i'm gonna well how does it how does intermittent fasting help you? Like, what do you, what do you like about it? Yeah. Yeah. So for me, like I never, even, you know, as long as I can remember, I never really liked as soon as I woke up, just shoving food down my mouth. Like everyone is like, Oh, you know, it's good for your metabolism. It's all this. I'm like, eh, you know, I, I can take it or leave it. But I always thought, you know, again, reading those bodybuilding magazines, I'm in a super hyper catabolic state.

My muscles are literally falling off my body if I don't, you know, if I don't get 100 grams of protein in my body right away. Yeah. Like, what was that movie, like, Prometheus in the beginning when the dude's just, like, withering away? Exactly. You're on fire right now. Your muscles are, yeah. But, yeah, so I noticed, I'm like, wait, this is, you know, there's science in saying otherwise. So, you know, let me read into this.

And then again, I know you touched upon it in Beyond Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, too. So, you know, I picked that book up, of course, to, you know, kind of see what's next or what else can I do. And, you know, I was still getting a little bit stronger. And like I said, throughout the summer, I tried to maintain. And then once it hit September, I was like, all right, I'm still, you know, back, I was still getting a little bit stronger. And like I said, throughout the summer, I tried to maintain. And then once it hit September, I was like, all right. I'm still back. I was probably between 180 and 185.

So I still managed my weight. I kept my weight regardless of going out to eat on the weekends or drinking beer at night, stuff like that, like bonfires and things like that. So I was like, all right, now it's time to just get stronger, you know, pack on some muscle if I can, you know, because I've been working out again since probably about 16, since I was 16 or 17. So I'm 25 now. Yeah. So about eight or nine years. And it's like, well, how much more, you know, because there's always like those different schools of thought.

It's like, you know, how much more muscle can you gain? Yeah. And then, you know, you do those calculators. I think it's like that one Casey butt or whatever. It's like your genetic potential. And I do that and I'm like, I still have a long way to go. So it's like, can I really gain that? So yeah, so I've been bulking since September.

And what I've noticed too is, again, in a lot of your articles, it's talking about the optimal way to build muscle. And it's, again, I used to have the school thought of, you have to eat 12,000 calories and just have an IV of Ben and Jerryerry's all at all any time of the day um so i went a little bit oh you know i kind of kept it within 250 calories and stuff like that i noticed i was getting stronger um one thing that i always did and it's funny because um i never really did squats uh i kind of left it all right i didn't neglect my legs i mean i always just did use dealer things yeah i always did like heavy leg press i i really skipped leg day yeah um but then over

the summer i remember reading one of your articles about um the adidas adipower the squat shoes and stuff like that and i was like you know like let me give that a shot and also with that i know my my squat depth sucked um you know like a lot of people who you know do like the quarter squats or eight squats or whatever um i you know in your book uh beyond people who, you know, do like the quarter squats or eight squats or whatever. Um, I, you know, in your book, uh, beyond, uh, bigger, leaner, stronger, you had all those stretches. Uh, so I was doing that every day, uh, every night before I went to bed, you know, I was, I was doing those stretches to help my squat depth. And then I got those shoes and I was like, Holy crap, what a difference. Um, and then I started squatting, you know, uh, pretty much twice a week. And I'm done. That's been my focus since I started bulking in September.

I've been doing legs twice a week, so I'm doing squats. I usually do one muscle for lifestyle, so I do the four to six reps. Then do a higher rep. Then I do a higher rep squat or a 20-rep squat or something like that just to get my legs somewhat so I'm not just standing on two pencils. How have you progressed so far so i progressed pretty well um i again like having never really been able to squat well or without pain or without you know getting it down like with depth yeah uh probably in the summer i was probably squatting around like maybe 160 175 i the last last friday because it's

usually my heavy leg day um i did 315 for three sets of six. That's great. So I was happy about that. Yeah. And I was like, all right, this is cool. And then my front squat, I'm around like 225. Nice. So I'm like, all right.

And then the other days, like the later days, I worked up. So I started at like 240 or whatever, and I do three sets of 10. And now I'm up to, this week, it's going to be 170 for three reps of 10, three sets of 10 and now i'm up to this week it's going to be 170 for two you know three reps of 10 uh three sets of 10 yeah um other than that again my bench uh went up to i was doing the beyond bigger leaner stronger so i was doing you know the real heavy stuff yeah they're real heavy so like the two to three rep range um i hit 305 nice and that's that's big for me because i actually uh i tore my labrum in when I was in high school. And so, I mean, I had surgery on my shoulder. And it's always kind of been a thing that I have to kind of look out for.

But the fact that I was able to bench that heavy or bench 275 between four and six, I mean, for three reps, I still think that's an accomplishment in my book. I mean, I don't think I've ever been higher than 295 personally and that was that was the last time that i bulked i mean if i would have continued bulking i'm sure i could get stronger but i have super long arms which work really against me oh yeah of course if you're not i have straight monkey arms yeah if you're not like five two like you are not good for like power lifting because it's like yeah that yeah like basically like if you have a range of motion, then forget it. I have long femurs too. So my body is not made for, uh, weight for, for, for strength training. It's just not even, even genetically, I did a DNA fit test and

genetically, like I'm much more predisposed to be, it would be like an endurance athlete. I guess the thing that works for me in terms of muscle building, which has helped me just whatever, get as far as I've gotten is I forget the name of the gene, but it's a gene that it is particularly affects muscle recovery, if I remember correctly. And so these guys, they work with a lot of professional athletes, like professional soccer players and stuff. And they said that like 80% of professional athletes they work with have that genetic quality. So like like that's why that that basically genetically explains why my body has responded well to weight lifting in terms of hypertrophy but like you know i would not make a good strength my my when i have super long arms

super long legs and genetically i'm just not made for it so yeah i'm with you on that like i was happy in my last time bulking i got to i I think, three or two or something with 295. And I was like, yeah, all right. It's not 315, but I'm sick of being fat. So this is where I'm going to stop. It eventually comes to the point. It's like, all right, well, I have zero aspirations for powerlifting. Yeah, same.

Those guys are just monsters or animals. Yeah, it's a whole other level. So I'm like, you know what? I like working out. It's fun for me. I I'm like, you know what? I like working out. It's fun for me. I like, you know, changing the way my body looks,

you know, I like pushing myself. So, you know, I'm not going to be, you know, all like gear, you know,

wearing a, like a bench press shirt and all that stuff and, you know, have the crazy arch and stuff. So, I mean, even if you stay raw, I mean,

there's, it's just obviously a lot of wear and tear on the body. Yeah. You know, that's, that's, that's, if you're playing any sport competitively, there's going to be some element of that, but, um, you know,

that just is what it is. Yeah, no, definitely. Um, and, and with, with, with that, uh, you know, I have a couple of just stupid injuries. Like I have a herniated disc in my lower back. So I have, you know, I, when I do kind of heavier squats, I do use a weight belt and same thing with deadlifts. Like, I mean, the most I got off the deadlifts was I think four to 425. I did, you know, four or five or six. And I was like, all right, you know, this is good. I don't feel like my spine is going to shoot out of my back. So I think I'm pretty good. Um, but again, you know, I'm always trying to get stronger and stuff like that. So I'm not just completely neglecting or going to stay at that. So, yeah and that's i've noticed i think there's something to be said too for i mean i've run this myself that there is a point where i feel

like i haven't uh sustained any real injuries which you know knock on wood but but there is a point where i've thought myself like um you know you start going there, like deadlifting 500 pounds is not good for your body. You just can't, you know what I mean? There's a, or there's a point to make probably depends on, on the individual's body and, and, you know, it depends a lot of things, but I think there's definitely a point with everyone's bodies where it's like, okay, you're very strong. You have, you know, enough strength to build as much muscle as you possibly can naturally. You have enough strength to build as much muscle as you possibly can naturally. And structurally speaking, there's a point where if you keep going, your risk of injury probably rises quite faster than it did leading up to that.

You know what I mean? Yeah, exponentially. Yeah. I totally agree with that. So that's the thing. It's like, if you're, you know, moving heavier, heavy weight, and you're pretty much stronger than about 90% of the people that go to the gym and do the same workout, you know, week in week out and not, you know, that's, that's perfectly fine with me. And that's, I've noticed that it's, um, and then you can work. I mean, at that level, this is, we're talking about like you're an advanced weightlifter and

you've put, you know, years of work and you've built your foundation, you've built more than your foundation. You've probably achieved 90% of your genetic potential really, then you can work in different ways. I mean gaining strength is fine, but you have to realize that like gaining muscle, it comes very slowly after a while. And then also when you're periodizing your workouts like you are, you can make progress even in higher rep ranges is fine, especially because now you can actually move some weight for 10 reps or 12 reps even 20 reps as opposed to years ago and this is the same thing

for me how i used to train where i was like pretty fucking weak so you know like yeah it's fine to do 20 rep sets but when you're doing it with no weight it just doesn't the body doesn't respond exactly yeah when i'm when i'm using 15 pounds and i'm doing incline you know incline bench on their dumbbell bench yeah it's like, what are you doing? Just feeling the burn. It's all about muscle confusion, right? So that's what we got to do here. But yeah, no, so that kind of leads me.

And like I said, I started bulking in September around 181, 185. I'm around 200, 205 now. And it's crazy because I'm like, all right, this is weird. I still have bicep veins. I still have still have like veins like you know my quads and like that i'm like all right you know obviously i don't have not ripped in another six pack i'm like i still have like you know a decent amount so like i'm getting to the point like that where it's that the kind of the cutting and bulking phase where you get up to around you know 14 50 body fat and then you know i'm gonna i'm planning on uh another two or three weeks to start cutting. Are you sick of eating yet?

No. No? Really? No. See, the thing is I hate when people are just like, oh, I can't eat enough. I'm like, I wish I had that problem. I'm like, oh, I can't. I'm totally so full.

And I'm like, I'm seriously a black hole. I probably have several very happy tapeworms. I was going to say, do you have a tapeworm? But the thing is it's funny because my whole family, I mean, like my older brother, he's massive. He eats a ton. He's strong, you know, strong as hell. So it's just funny, though, because I can never, like,

I probably amaze everyone that, like, you know, whoever goes to dinner with me or, like, I know my girlfriend and her family is like, how do you, like, still have room? Like, you eat all this food and then you eat dessert and then you're like, I like, there's no off button. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, strangely enough, I can eat a ton of food in one sitting, but I don't get hungry whether I eat or I don't eat. My version of hunger is I just feel like it would be cool to eat some food, but I don't get hunger pangs.

You know what I mean? kind of like it would be cool to eat some food but i don't get i don't get hunger pains you know what i mean so i can i could i could eat 2 000 calories in a day and be like yeah sure whatever or i could eat 5 000 in one maybe not in one meal i could definitely easily eat 3 000 in one meal and be like oh dude i like i'm just getting warmed up so yeah i can relate to that exactly and it's funny because like i said before i started intermittent fasting i used to notice i would get hangry a lot. Because, again, I had that mindset that if I'm not eating that whole – I swear the psychological plays a role. Oh, it's – absolutely.

And that's what – I mean, I know like a lot of the fitness industry does. They prey on all your psychological – Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like you need that protein every – Yeah, you do. Every three hours and it should be this protein supplement, of course. Yeah, of course.

Yeah, you need to. And then you're going to gain 50 pounds of muscle in the eight weeks that you take this in a double-blind study. Yeah, exactly. Conducted by University of Tampa. Yeah. This supplement is better than steroids. Exactly. It's like, oh, legal steroids, you know, all that.

Yeah, so. But, yeah, just to go with that, since I started fasting, I mean, I don't do it now that I'm bulking. But I mean, I do. I mean, I usually, again, when I wake up from work, I usually wake up around like 5.30 in the morning and I usually eat maybe my first meal at 10. So, I mean, I still am kind of eating when you feel like eating type exactly so it's like convenient for me but i've noticed i don't get hangry anymore like i know if i'm you know going to dinner and like we're waiting long and like i didn't really eat much today i'm like i'm fine it's just like a different it's cool because it's almost like a different kind of mindset now that i have before i would get like shit i need it right fucking yeah i need it now just give it to like i need it in my body and i don't care yeah um. Um, but my, my girlfriend, now my wife, she used to have like protein bars in her purse because back in the day when I was uninformed and she would know, like I would be like,

Oh, you know, I mean, I wasn't like, it wasn't like I was on a clock, but I, again, it was a psychological where I like felt that,

Oh, I needed to eat every few hours or I'm going to lose muscle. So then my, I don't know, every few hours I would just get super hungry. Like need protein right now yeah no or i need to my metabolism is gonna go to a screeching halt and i'm just gonna starvation mode exactly yeah it's like you don't like and then like just reading all that stuff it's just amazing like that doesn't happen for like you know 24 like 48 hours like after you don't eat anything like yeah like if

you go three days without eating, that's a problem. Yeah, that's a problem. Never going to have that, I don't think. Like I said, my mindset changed with a lot of things following your book and following the intermittent fasting. I know once I start cutting again, I'm probably going to push that window

out longer and start drinking coffee again. Do you like with IF when you're cutting that you get to eat larger meals? Does that help you just not overeat basically? Yeah, it does. I like pushing it out, you know, it's because I like it. I'm more hungry at night, you know, after post workout and stuff like that. You're just ravenous. So, you know, I like that so much better. And just with that, I mean, that's the one thing that's tough with cutting because I think when I first started cutting, I might have adjusted my calories maybe a little bit too low. So I know when I finished my cut at, you know, 180, I was eating around maybe 2,000, 2,100 calories.

And it's funny because, I mean, it sounds pretty good. I mean, I don't know if it's just, you know, my metabolism or what. But I've noticed now, like when I started bulking i was i was like okay so let's say 2500 it's like my my maintenance so i was like all right let's go up to like say 2700 and like i was eating that and i was like all right i'm not really gaining weight and then like i moved up to like 2800 and i'm like i'm still not like i'm gaining a little bit and then like i'm not like for like two weeks and like i'm like i plateaued so like i'm up till now i'm up to around like 3000 or 3100 calories like. Like I, I keep like a,

I don't track it as, as strictly and religiously as I did when I was cutting, obviously. Yeah. But I still have that, you know, once you kind of do that, you know,

you're in that range. Yeah. Exactly. One to 3,300. Yeah. So like, that's what I've been doing now. And I mean,

I love it. I just love, yeah, that's good. That's good. Um, and then other things I did when I, my last book though,

I was eating probably by the end again i wasn't tracking every because it was also you know it was just i was eating so much goddamn food it was like it was 4 000 probably 4 900 a day and i had to just to keep gaining weight and i wasn't super fat i was like maybe 14 15 maybe even a little bit lower it's always it's kind of always just a guesstimation but of course i still had abs and stuff and whatever but i that's where i mean i need so much food i just got sick of it like my my last meal of the day was a huge bowl of pasta and i would just like force it down exactly like when you when you come to that end of the day you're like i have like 500 600 calories left like all right time just put peanut butter and stuff like yeah i just i'm

just throwing like you know wheat toast or something you know whatever just i need to get those calories yeah anything which is what i mean that's a that's the best problem i have in my book yeah i know but but i there's a point where even you would get sick of like i guarantee you there's a daily intake where you just be like i i don't want to eat anymore i just oh yeah probably like a michael michael phelps like amount like you know 10 000 calories i think, I think probably then I would hit my breaking point. But yeah, no, so I really enjoyed, you know, I, so far, like, you know, on the program and everything, like I've been using a lot of your, like, I still been following, you know, the, you know, the, the bigger, leaner, stronger kind of mindset and principles with, you know,

the heavier weight. One thing I started experimenting with and playing around with is actually the upper lower days. So, so working out four times a week but trying to focus more on you know upper body and lower body again because i know i want to increase frequency exactly because i've never done that before and i was like all right let me let me give it a shot um you know and after a while you know your body gets used to it like i'm not usually as sore as you know if i was if i did you know just a chest day and you know because your individual workout volume is lower exactly and I feel like I'm still progressing so I mean that's just something I've tried again because I'm like I know you're always trying to

trying to read more trying to see you know all these studies and stuff like that and you hear you just there's so much there's so much shit on the internet it's just like for someone like I feel bad like for people who like anyone who's like starting to like work out or starting to get into it or ask me like how i did i'm like i just put into your site i'm like just this because everything else you read it's probably from someone who's like 16 years old and like probably 105 pounds like soaking wet like telling you that you need to like commenting on youtube exactly yeah so it's like just don't don't do that or the people or on so many drugs yeah you could never hope to even get anywhere.

Exactly. Like, oh, I'm eating six pizzas every day and I'm down to 6% body fat. It's like – I've been cutting on 3,000 calories a day for three months now. Yeah. And I'm still on 3,000 and I'm shredded. I don't know. I just have good genetics.

I just have a good metabolism. Thanks, mom and dad. And I got bigger and I'm dry as fuck and oh yeah yeah it's like okay all right I see and I didn't even realize like you know like I've watched a couple documentaries and stuff like that on steroids and it's just crazy to see like how much is everyone's just fucking on steroids like it's like not everyone of course you know it's very prevalent I mean it is I didn't realize it's it was as you know prevalent as it is you know i thought a lot of people again this was just my naivety i guess when i was younger again you're seeing the bodybuilders and stuff like that who have the 87 inch quads and stuff like that like oh this guy is just you

know he worked really hard yeah it's like yeah he he did and then genetics so and those but they're i mean they're that that those are two very important factors for sure. But you know, if you speak with, and I've spoken with professional bodybuilders that are, you know, more honest about this kind of stuff, they'll say that the most important thing is your drugs.

And then, and then from there, of course, like you're, these guys do have crazy genetics. A lot of them like, Oh yeah, no,

you know what I mean? Like, look at, look at Ronnie Coleman when he was in high school. Oh yeah. He's ridiculous. He's bigger than I'll ever get ever ever be he was he looks like given his height he looks like he was like 230 and maybe 220 230 and lean and he himself said that he started doing steroids when he was 25 um and i've so i reason i know that's because i included this information in an article and linked to a little talk he was giving yeah too so and i don't know why he would lie about that

like he was talking about it like yeah so that's when i started doing steroids and yeah i don't know why he would like what does he care what if it was really 21 why would he say 25 exactly even if you look at pictures from at that time when he's 25 massive he was massive oh yeah so big so i know i mean these guys do have genetic i mean they were just built to be huge but but then of course you know you look at some of these uh professional bodybuilders that have retired and now they're they look very natty now oh yeah that's how that shows you that exactly yeah when they're not taking all the you know even though they're still working out like i, I think there's a couple guys, I don't remember, was it Flex,

maybe not Flex, there was a couple where I saw who still stay in shape. They're still in the lifting, but they're like, you know, half their size that they were.

Yeah, oh yeah, I know. And it's like, even like I know, the other thing that comes to mind is like, is Jay Cutler when he's like 16 or 17 years old. Like,

it's like, like, I can never look like that. And like, you're not on steroids and you're like, you know, 17 years old. Like, it's like, like I can never look like that. And like, you're not in steroids and you're like, you know, 17 years old and you're just like at like my genetic potential. Yeah.

It's like, I know it's depressing. Um, yeah, no. So that's, um, just,

just to kind of play off that. So that's why I always, I try to, you know, show them some of the stuff that you, that you post put out. Because again, a lot of it's,

a lot of it's, you know, you'll find the least amount of – there's no bullshit. You've been through it. You have your clients. You have your success stories and stuff like that. And it's like, all right, well – And I mean just not to toot my own horn, but at this point, I've worked with – I mean I don't even know. If I were to look at my Gmail, I probably have 40,000 emails. Like a total email sent legitimately probably 40

000 no definitely it's definitely over 30 000 i could only imagine and those aren't those aren't individual like that's how each individual email but so i've i've worked with now and by worked with i mean it's not that i even charge people money for it but yeah i've seen so many things now and i have stayed in touch with so many people so in that way i've worked with thousands of people meaning like people like you that came to me at some point and that I've just stayed in touch with. And they email every so often. So I've gotten to see so many things,

which has helped in just seeing so many circumstances and so many situations. And then when new people come and say, hey, this is the situation I'm in, what do I do? In most cases, it's just do the basics. But there's a good chance I've also worked with somebody that's been in those person's shoes exactly. You know what I mean? Yeah, no. So it helps.

Yeah, no, totally. I mean, I think that's so crazy that you respond to, like, everyone. I just don't really get the time for that. You just may. It's about priorities. And also, I mean, I don't really get the time for that. You just may. It's about priorities. And also, I mean, I do have a good system set up.

One, I don't know how fast of a typer I am now. It's over 100 words a minute, I'm sure. I'm like, I don't know. I've just been typing

so much at this point. But then I have a good system set up with like keyboard shortcuts and it's like very efficient. But it's also just making the time. I'm reading a book right now. It's called Hug Your Haters. Kind of funny. And it's all about customer service. We do a little book club thing here at the office where we all read the same book, one book a month, we all read.

Uh, and then, and then we discuss it and stuff and what are our notes and takeaways and how can we implement this and what we're doing and stuff. So this is, um, uh, the, the, I'm like only 30 pages in, we just started it. Uh, but so far kind of the core message of the book is, uh, you know, the idea that it's called hug your haters because people that are complaining instead of ignoring them or thinking that they're assholes or attacking them, you should embrace people that are complaining because they're telling you, they're giving you valuable insights and intelligence on your business. And, and they represent a silent, a large, but silent number of people that don't care enough to really complain,

but they're not satisfied kind of thing. Yeah. And so one of the things that like the core, you know, messages, at least in the first part of the book is you have to respond to every, every review everywhere. Basically every piece of communication that comes your way,

you have to respond to it good or bad. And it's just funny that, you know, everywhere, basically every piece of communication that comes your way, you have to respond to it, good or bad. And it's just funny that that was something I never read anywhere. But even starting out, I was like, yeah, it's going to take time to answer every email and be in touch with everyone and take care of social media and do all that shit. But I think people are really going to appreciate it because nobody does that. I think people are really going to appreciate it because nobody does that. And what better service can you offer, especially in this context where it's like, okay, so the person read the book. They have questions. They're not sure on what to do.

And I could take three minutes of my time because I have so many articles in this case. A lot of it's like, oh, that's a good question. Go check out this article. There you go. All I did was point them to an article, but it answered their question. And that just makes such a huge difference in terms of building goodwill. So people that are, if you're listening and you own a business, it really, really, really works. The time that you put into that is not lost time. Customer service is not a, it's a profit center if you use it properly, in my opinion.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I know you guys, I mean, I don't know if you consider yourself that, but I mean, yeah, I know you guys treated yourself like a startup almost, you know, kind of like a supplement company startup. I mean, that's what it is, factually. And it's like so cool to see all this different stuff now that you guys evolved. Again, just starting out, and I know you put out, what was it first, like Pulse or something? You put the pre-workout first? out and then you put out um what was it first like the pulse or something you put the pre-workout first yeah yeah we we launched with um with pulse way recharge and a creatine product that we no no so we were no no it was pulse way and then it was a creatine product that became recharge that we

changed and i feel like i'm forgetting one anyways but yeah a few products right in the beginning okay yeah and then like it's cool to see like all the stuff that you guys you guys have now like i know some of them like i know like your your multivitamin and fortify even though you know it was it was on backorder for uh for a while i explained why in that email you probably saw that yeah i mean it was stupid i had to like concoct my own version of it in the in the interim uh it was almost like that episode of family guy where peter griffin is like trying to make red bull and he's just pouring the gasoline in the interim, uh, it was almost like that episode of family guy where Peter Griffin is like trying to make Red Bull and he's just pouring the gasoline in the blender and he's drinking. Yeah.

So that's, um, yeah. So it's, it's like that. Um, but you know, like I said,

like your supplements too, like I know I love, uh, like Legion is, is by far like, I mean, sorry, not Legion,

not pulse. Um, it's such a good pre-workout. And again, I know I've had a lot of success using Phoenix as well. Um, because again, in addition to've had a lot of success using Phoenix as well. Um, because again, in addition to all believing all the,

uh, the dogma from the old school bodybuilding magazines and stuff like that, like you also get, they push, you know, so many supplements on you. So yeah, I probably took,

yeah, it took everything under the sun. And it's just the same. Yeah, exactly. I think I used to spend like $400 a month. Oh yeah, no,

me too. Like I would have like actually ridiculous. Yeah, it's just completely. and to think it's like, well, if I just used that money and bought food, first of all, I wouldn't need that much food anyway. So I'd be saving so much money. And then just get the stuff that's tested and works instead of just the shit that they say.

Basically anything that's promoted, if it's sold in a retail location, it's probably shit. Unless it's just like a vitamin D pill or something. You know what I mean? If it's a pre-workout and it's sold in a retail location, you can get much better stuff online from companies like my company that sells direct to consumer because there are too many middlemen in the retail model right now, how it is that you'll never see great products in GNC or vitamin shop. You never will because there's not enough money in it. You have to make that product for,

let's say it's $40, which is what people are willing to pay for. Give or take. Yeah. That means that, you know, you need to make that product for maybe $4 a bottle, maybe five if you're really generous. Uh, but that, that's not enough to do shit. You can't make that product for maybe $4 a bottle, maybe $5 if you're really generous.

But that's not enough to do shit. You can't make a good product. You can't make a good anything for $5. You can't make a good multivitamin. You can't make a good pre-workout. You can't make a good post-workout. You most definitely can't make a good protein powder. You just can't do anything with that.

So that's one of the big problems with the supplement industry. But I think it's great to see that, you know, what we're doing is, yeah, it's great for us, but it's, it's great to see that that's happening in other industries too. It's kind of a disruptive type of business model that, again, I mean, we're kind of going off on a business tangent now, but people that are listening, this is, um, an opportunity, not just necessarily in supplements, but in anything where if you can get into a position where you can cut out the middlemen that need their cut. So you're,

you're, you can sidestep distribution by going online and sell direct consumer. And instead of being greedy, because what a lot of companies have done, the opportunity to be Legion has been there. It's not like, it's not like I just lucked into it right in the beginning. And this wasn't,

you know, the 1980s and the computing industry or anything. It was just a, it was just like I just lucked into it right in the beginning. And this wasn't, you know, the 1980s and the computing industry or anything. It was just a, it was just like, well, you had these other companies selling online, doing the same thing, but instead of putting more money into making good products,

they just said, cool, bigger profits, more Lambos. Let's do that. You know, really honestly. So,

so when I was looking at it, I was like, yeah, okay, fine. Or I could just spend four times as much on making a product and make it so good that no one can copy it because it will never work in a retail environment. And if you're going to spend that much to produce your product, you better have a really good, uh, you better have something really smart worked out for your marketing

advertising because you're not going to have as much money to spend on that as these other companies. So, you know, that's a, can find that opportunity in any industry where you go, I can cut out middlemen, I can just then take the money that would be normally given to middlemen and make a better product and sell it direct to the consumer at a good price, then yeah, that works. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, I can personally attest for it. Again, I know just having some like, again, I'm not affiliated with you guys, you know, in any way. So just having someone, you know, take your supplements, stuff like that. I'm like, Oh, this stuff is actually like shit works. Like just that the pre-workout and all that stuff. It's like, it's, it's, it's helping me, you know, so much better than you see the other garbage that it's just like – It used to give me stomach aches. That's what I didn't like about their pre-workouts. Yeah, and it's funny because I know a lot of people when I talk to them about their pre-workouts that are like,

oh, yeah, I used to take this or that and it always gave me a stomach ache or I always feel terrible. I feel like death. Yeah, and like that's bad. It's a bad – You don't take something that makes you feel that way. Yeah, it's going to give you more energy, but if you feel like your colon is going to freaking blow out when you're doing squats, I'm like – That's your body telling you something.

Something's not right. Just do a caffeine pill instead. Yeah, exactly instead or drink a cup of coffee exactly like i agree yeah so no but um but yeah so that's that's pretty much like again with the supplements and the working out and stuff like that it's just been um like i'm like like i know like a lot of your stuff it's it's always evolving because again new science comes out, new, you know, new breakthroughs, new, new research. So that's where I, I also, in some cases it's ingredients that like, we're trying to, like, we're trying, we've been trying for months to put, I want to put one more ingredient in pulse. And I've had alpha GPC was an, it was, it was an idea.

And I had a specific reason why I wanted that. Uh, Alcar was another form of quarantine was another that they're still trying was another but the problem is and i'm forgetting one there's one other one we tried as well and now we're trying to work tart cherry juice into recharge but the problem is the taste it tastes so bad like we've been we've just been striking out one one ingredient after another but yeah we're working on it so that's yeah i know that's like i know if you take like a like a straight leucine supplement like a powder yeah it is the worst thing like or like a hydrolysate like like a like a whey hydrolysate or something

like it's just like you know unflavored we're gonna come out with an unflavored way from ours and i i i'm on the same page like i've had unflavored ways before that were really gross yeah um and this unflavored way that we were really gross. Yeah. And this on flavor way that we're going to be releasing, I was actually surprised. It tastes pretty good. I was impressed actually. So that's pretty cool. I'll send you some when it's available.

Yeah. I'm like, all right, cool. Just drinking water with, yeah, it's kind of like mild and creamy. It's actually pretty good.

Let me ask, like, what was one thing that like what was one issue or problem or something like that that you got you had when you were first starting uh like muscle for life like you like what was one thing you would say was like a struggle um there's always in in any in any six business success story of any kind there's a bit of serendipity involved luck involved of course hard work and being smart and having a good plan and all that. But along the way, you're going to have, if things are going to grow as quickly as my stuff has grown, you're just, there's going to be some luck involved for sure. And I guess in my case, in the beginning, there was two things that

were, it was just serendipity. It was luck. One was when I first published Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, there were no other books really like that. And to be fair, that's one of the reasons why I did it because I saw that. And I was looking at what other books, what books were available for, you know, was there a book similar to how there isn't an app right now that's really good for tracking your weightlifting and your diet. It just doesn't exist. So that's, that's what I'm building. So it's similar with Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. I was like, why hasn't someone written a book yet that kind of just breaks down flexible dieting and breaks down really the, the, the, what the 20% of stuff you need to know to eat 80%, 80% of the results.

Instead, instead we have a lot of these books that are, it's, they're, it's marketing nonsense. It's, you know, trying to pretend like there's some new breakthrough in weightlifting that is going to change everything. Or, you know, in dieting, you have to eat this way or eat that way or, you know. And so that was lucky that that was the case because now, I mean, they're along the way now in the last few years, um, a lot of rip off type books. I mean, I mean, sometimes in some cases it's like funny, there was just one guy.

So he emails me like he likes my work and you know, he loves reading my articles and he wrote a book and he would love me to check it out and maybe endorse it or whatever. And, um, you know, it's unlikely that I'm going to do that, but just because I get a lot of requests

and a lot of this stuff, I don't know how to let them, like, I have to, unfortunately, let people down nicely where I just, I don't agree with what they're doing or saying or whatever. And, and, you know, I, I don't want to be a dick, but I, I'm just not kind of, I don't want to endorse things indiscriminately just to maybe be able to get a favor back or something. Yeah, no, absolutely. And so, so in looking at the book, so I, but I just looked at it and it was basically just Bigger Than You're Stronger. Not really, but it was like the table of contents was like almost the same in terms of the material covered, right? So I'm just like, why would you email it?

You think I'm not going to notice that in my own fucking book? What are you thinking? So there are a lot of books that have come out since that are kind of knockoff type products. And the space is kind of glutted now with books like that. So if I were coming into this game right now, I don't know if I would write any – well, let's just say there was no bigger than you're stronger. Something else was in its place. I wouldn't, probably wouldn't write bigger than you're stronger in the beginning, because again, like I would be looking for what's something unique that I can bring to the space. Um, so bigger than you're stronger when it, when it first came out was very unique and that's why

it grew so quickly and got a lot of word of mouth. And now it's just so entrenched. I mean, it has 2,100 reviews on Amazon. I have sold probably 300,000 plus copies in the last few years and it just keeps, it just goes and goes and goes. And because now it's such a thing that, you know, it just is what it is. So trying to get in and just like trying to go, Oh, I can do that. Or,. Or a me too type of product is, is a bad idea. So that was, that was lucky that, um, you know, what, I guess the luck was that what I knew when I wrote the book was exactly what needed to be produced for the marketplace. Um, and, and, and then when I started muscle for life, which was soon after, and, and, you know, Jeremy was involved, that's when he got involved. Um, well, no, actually it wasn't soon after billion stronger was like January, 2012.

And we launched muscle for life, uh, March, uh, 2013. So, so, but when we, when, when we decided to do it in the end of 2012 and then had it built and launched it and, you it. Okay, let's start. It was much easier then, and it grew very quickly. By the end of the first year, it was, I want to say, close to a million visits a month. No, that's wrong. I have to look at analytics. It didn't grow that quickly, but it grew very quickly.

It was definitely in the hundreds of thousands of visits a month by the end of the first year. quickly. Um, it was definitely in the hundreds of thousands of visits a month by the end of the first year. Wow. And one of the reasons for that is growing a health and fitness blog, which is really what it is. Um, then was much easier than it is now, probably mainly because the space has again become so glutted. It is. Yeah. With, with websites that are doing the same thing and see what the, like my thing also with Legion and with muscle for with Legion and muscle for life is SEO. Like I'm writing for SEO. I don't care what I want to write about. I, if, if it doesn't have any SEO value, I'm probably not going to write about it. And in terms of determining what those criteria are, I mean,

there's, there's, it's not complicated, but there's different things that are taken into account. Um, but that, if you're going to play that game, then you're, you're going to be competing with people like me, basically that, and you're, and you have to be able to give Google what they want, which is long form content. That's going to be well-written. Their spiders can analyze the quality of your writing. They know, like, can this person write, is this person, you know, coherent or not? Like if someone's a bad writer and writes stuff that's hard to read and annoying to read,

Google spiders can actually determine that to some degree. Oh, that's awesome. So you're going in, so you need to be able to write, you know, 2,000-plus word articles that are well-written, that people like to read, that get shared around. And you're going to be up against, you know, there's the whole link side of, of,

of SEO, which is, I mean, you can't just go on Fiverr and buy link wheels. That's not how it works. You have to know the right people and you have to know what you're doing and you have to spend a lot of money, not a little bit of money,

a lot of money. So if little bit of money, a lot of money. So if you, if you want to really be competitive, like if you wanted to do like authority nutrition, for instance, you want to go up against those trolls, uh, you better be, you, I'm telling you, you better be ready to spend at least $50,000 a month on links at least. So, uh, now that's not to be discouraging and say, don't try, but the point is like, don't, if you're going to go into, you know, this space, don't just try to be like, oh, well I can, I can spin that article. I can write an article like that. Like, don't think that's going to work because ultimately, you know, you need to provide something unique and something different that people are going to latch on to.

And again, in the beginning, muscle for life was that there weren't any other sites that even, you know, that even cited research in the way that I did where it made it very easy for people to access. All studies are just linked. And when I make a claim, you can go see why am I saying that. And so a lot of little things that now more and more people are doing, but they're starting, you know, behind the curve and they don't really know what they're doing and they don't have enough money to do it right. And really try to, you know, build as quickly as they would, they would hope. So those are the kind of like the two main, you know, uh, I'd say serendipitous things that have put me where I'm at now. And so in terms of challenges, uh, or struggles, I, I mean, I hate to say it, but they're in my, at least maybe this is also

me as a person and my perspective on things. Like, I honestly think that my life and really any of like modern living is so fucking easy. Like our lives, it's kind of a joke, how easy and how good we have it. And not because I make some money or anything that anybody, even somebody that would be at the poverty level. Uh, if you look at around the rest of the world, how people live, like, come on,

we have it easy as fuck. We, you know what I mean? We don't start, we just go to a store and get food and we can access the world, uh, at our fingertips on our phones. You know what I mean?

So, you know, um, I, I'm not, I'm just not one to complain about things much, but, but in terms of, I guess, so, you know, it wasn't like a big struggle, like, oh, this is so hard.

It was more just doing the work. And so, you know, initially the challenge really is, I guess, I mean, for me, I kind of didn't care and I just did it. So it wasn't so challenging. is. I'd say for anyone else, for the sake of anyone listening, or if you to answer your question, the challenge would have been if the amount of time that it took, there wasn't it wasn't like, oh, I work smart. I don't work hard. Yeah, like it was. And that's still the case. I mean, my work schedule hasn't changed all that much. I worked maybe on average when we started a little bit more, maybe five hours more a week, maybe 10 max. But, you know, I still work on average about 60 hours a week. A low week is 50 hours.

And sometimes it's more than 60. So there was just no way around that. So, you know, in the beginning, so Jeremy and I saw, we have something, we have potential and we had seen in the beginning, we could build this out. We could build up this website. I could write more books. Um, we could, we could do supplements because we even then knew like there is an opportunity to do good supplements and to actually do the stuff that, again, that's the story of Legion. Like the stuff that we would have, would wish other companies would make, you know, we could do that kind of thing. So we stuff that we would have would wish other companies would make, of course,

you know, we could do that kind of thing. So we saw that in the beginning, but we had to take it one step at a time. So then it was just it's just the the, the grind of showing up every day, and putting in the work, whether you feel like it or not. And, you know, it's not a matter of like, Oh, well, I'm just lucky because I'm so passionate about what I do that I can just say, that's not even true. Like, yeah, I have passion for what I'm doing, but it doesn't mean that every day I'm super excited to do every task that I have to do. And I just discount personally emotions and feelings. I just don't really care how I feel about things. Like I can turn that off for work. That's very true. I try to be less

of a robot in my relationships with people, but I do not care how I feel about things when it comes to work. In fact, I don't even trust my feelings. Like I joke, I was just joking with Jeremy today that in some ways, like my, I, I, if certain feelings that I have about things, it's almost like that tells me that I should just do the opposite because that you know what i mean yeah i see that a lot also with just out there like people like they're feeling they want to just sit there and watch netflix for three hours they should do the exact opposite yeah they feel like they don't want to go in the gym because they should do the exact opposite and go to the gym they feel like they want to eat the 19 pizzas they should do the exact opposite you know what i. So it's almost like there's a point where, um,

I like the, the, the war of art. Uh, yeah. War of art. Yeah. Steven Pressfield a lot.

It's a book. And I don't know if you've, if you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. And he kind of talks about like the, this internal resistance that we have in us that just is in there to just get in our way and fuck up our lives basically. Yeah.

And the more you, and this is kind of coming back to that kind of idea that like whatever it is, the, the, the obstacles that we put in our, in our own way, if you can just with, it takes self discipline and it takes self control.

But if you can, you know, beat them enough, it just becomes then much easier and much harder for life and random stuff to derail you. Because I mean, I've experienced this personally where now I have such a routine where I know exactly what I'm going to be doing tonight. And there's no way that I'm not going to be working on what I'm going to be working on. And that's just a fact. It's like every day.

You know what I mean? It's like going to the gym. You know you're going to the gym every day. Unless, okay, fine, things can happen here and there. But so as you start to get more and more certain in your, in other areas of your life, in your routines, I mean, that's been very helpful to me. So cultivating that in the beginning was a bit of a challenge just that, you know, I guess as a, as a person I never, I've never taken any kind of personality test, but I would expect that I probably have a bit of an introvert. And there are aspects of me that are extroverted, and there's a part of me that's more of an introvert

where I don't have any problem being by myself and just doing what I'm doing. And I don't care what other people are doing. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I don't give a shit if there's a party tonight. I don't give a shit if there's a dinner. I don't give a shit if there's a birthday party, whatever. And if I've decided that's what I'm doing, you know what I mean? So, you know, I don't know.

That was maybe the only thing that other people, because then, you know, people are going to hear this and they're going to be like, oh, that's so sad. What a sad way to live. Honestly, like I've had people, I've had people, and I even i don't even get offended i'm not gonna like say oh yeah fucking money uh whatever you know what i mean because that would be like the standard response but like yeah well he's being a millionaire said just make it rain just yeah he's that sad so that's that's not that's not even the point but but, um, you know, for me, and this is another book

that I recommend, I've recommended it many times. So it's just cliche for me to even recommended it, but it's a book called flow. Um, and it's, uh, it's all about, you know, that the, what are the, what are the best experiences that you're going to have in your life? And a lot of cases, they're going to be when you're in this flow state, when you're doing things, something that's fully engaging and, you know, you lose track of time and it takes, uh, you know, you have to, you have to exercise skills and you get immediate feedback. And so, you know, it, it talks about that concept applied to different areas of life. So for me, uh, that's, that's just very true. I don't know. That's, that's true for me in that, um, you, you can have flow experiences in work. You can have flow experiences in relationships and,'t know, that's true for me in that you can have flow experiences in work.

You can have flow experiences in relationships and, you know, whether it be with girlfriends or wives or boyfriends or husbands or whatever or friends or many different ways you can experience flow. But for me, I've tried to spend my time doing things that produce that feeling just because I like it. So, you know, in a lot of cases, my work is a flow type of activity for me. And so I tend to gravitate toward that just because it's enjoyable, truly enjoyable for me. And then of course it produces, you know, it produces things outside of just my own emotions. So, yeah, I mean, I know it's kind of a long answer, but that's, that, that was really, you know, in the beginning that was, that was the only challenge. And then I can say going forward, the challenge has been, uh, just, just having to persist through

all kinds of bullshit, like, and, you know, and, and, and then, and then learning the lessons of that, you know, don't hang on to don't work with people that aren't really competent, that aren't really professional, that don't really do a good job. We've had to learn that lesson. Just be kind of too nice with people. Not people that I've hired and that work with me in the office here, but like external type people that would provide different services. And being too friendly about it. You know what i mean and i i have there's a point where like i'm a nice guy up to a point and if there's a once i you know that i just had to

lower that a little bit yeah you know what i mean like take a little bit less shit especially when i'm paying a lot of money you know what i mean yeah um and because if you're not unfortunately with certain people it's just the way they are if you're the one that is uh if you're not, unfortunately, with certain people, it's just the way they are. If you're the one that is, if you're not, they're going to go out, they're going to just take care of the noisiest people first. And if you're not making a bunch of noise, then you're, you know, you're not as much of a problem. Yeah. So we had to learn that. And just, you know, as we get into more stuff, when projects have very long runways, which like,

for instance, the new Legion website was a ton of work. That was a lot of work. And, or doing a book or something like that, where just learning to, and it's really just kind of a discipline of focusing just on the task that's right ahead of you. And don't, you know, don't, don't think, don't let the enormity of the entire thing weigh on you and just demotivate you. You know what I mean? So I've, I, that's also something that was a challenge. And then just something, you know, Jeremy and I had to learn is just like, okay, fine. Yeah. It's going to be all this work and we have all these problems with this thing right now, but what are we going to do right now today? Like what's the next step? And then just doing it. And no matter, it doesn't matter, you know,

how it doesn't matter how we feel, just start. What's the next, next task. Cool. Start doing it. All right, great. And, um, and then eventually after doing enough of these little tasks, look at that, the whole thing is, is done. And then now you're super happy. Um, and so that, that's been important just as a, as a, again, it's almost like a skill that you can, that we've learned at least. And,

uh, because the things that are really worth doing take a lot of time. I mean, that's just the way it is. Absolutely. I mean, especially in business, you know what I mean?

Business is like most businesses aren't shit in their first five years. They're just, they're just, they're just not. Yeah, no, you just not. Yeah. No, you're right. Yeah, right. And that's, no, you brought up a lot of really good points.

Like I said, like I'm like in my professional life, I'm a project manager. So, you know, I noticed, you know, again, like everything that you said is spot on with, you know, how to cultivate, you know, kind of learn. Again, I've been on both sides, you know, learning that, you know, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to say. Or, you know, learning that, you know, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to say, or, you know, it's just so, but no, that's, that's definitely, that's, that's really cool insight coming from, again, like, like a start, like a startup and, you know, how you guys have such success so far and, and just kind of seeing that, that evolution of, you know, putting out articles to now you're, you know, all the books and supplements and, you know, who knows, you know, the app and all that other stuff that you guys have kind of in the, in the,

in the works right now. But yeah, no, that's so cool. Yeah, it's been a good ride. It's going well. And I think also there's something, last thing I'll say on that, there's something to be said for keeping in what worked early on now.

So like, yeah, I mean, a lot of people in my position, honestly, they wouldn't spend time answering emails. Absolutely, yeah. They wouldn't bother with that. I mean, there are things that, a lot of things, I mean, that I don't have to do. Like, even this podcast. Like, I don't have to do this podcast. Absolutely.

I don't have to make YouTube videos at all. A lot of things that, you know, I could start writing one article a month. I could start writing one article every two months. Exactly. And then just push, you know, more of the supplements and just be like, all right, I'm good. And just ride and just be like, oh, that's good. But that's one. I'm just not that – I have no interest in retiring or trying. I like working.

What can I say? I don't want to go hang out on the golf course. I actually don't want to. I could if I wanted to. I don't want to. I don't do it because I'm here because I want to be here. You know what I say? I don't want to go hang out on the golf course. I actually don't want to. I could if I wanted to. I don't want to. I don't do it because I'm here because I want to be here. You know what I mean? But also then with people, just maintaining that level of service is something that early on,

before there was anything, before it had any real financial impact in my life, I saw the personal impact of it and was like, that's cool. I just want to keep doing that. You know what I mean? And then I didn't actually even realize in the beginning how big of an effect it, it, it has. It's like ultra ultimate compounding goodwill almost. I didn't realize that I experienced it, but in the beginning that wasn't even like a master plan. It was just like, yeah, people would like that. Like, I think it would be cool if I could write an author about, you know, I read his book, I could write him and get a real response to a question.

That'd be cool. Yeah, absolutely. And, but it turns out to be like, Oh, now I'm reading this book from this bestselling author. That's all about kind of just that.

Like that's so far, that's the message of the book is like, yeah, be a human and be helpful. Yeah. That's revolution. That's revolutionary. Okay.

Yeah. Right. Cause in the world that's getting, you know highly hold on a second i'm just plugging in my ipad here um in the world that's that's totally uh you know very you know computer driven and you know non-personable and stuff like that um those who you know again take the time and actually that's one thing that's kind of one of the reasons why i was like oh this is you know this is legit that's could have been one of the

reasons why you know i stuck to it subconsciously is because the fact that I knew that there was a human on the other side of that email that would be like, oh, let me help you out or do this instead or try that or any question that I had which definitely helped. And this, I think, is a great

example of how just a small micro example of just how capitalism works like that for the good of everybody because now it's becoming more of a thing not just not just in fitness but i mean you've probably seen it customer service in general is becoming more of a thing and and as companies realize that it's profitable they're like oh yeah we want to do more of that and so regardless i mean even if that was their only reason for instituting something that is customer service oriented like what we're talking about now this kind of thing in the beginning but the the effects that it has out in the world are

are great so i you know i think it's just it's encouraging to see in airlines and food companies and yeah you know i see it all over the place Now it's just becoming more of a thing to actually respond to and be helpful and not just think of every transact, every, every interaction as a transaction or, or as a, as a, as a chance to make money.

You know what I mean? Like, Oh, a lot of people, I remember in the fitness space when I was first starting where, you know, if you'd email them a question, they would, most would just be like,

oh, yeah, that's a good question. Here, buy this, and it'll answer it for you. You know what I mean? It would have taken them actually any more time to just answer the question. Let's say it's a yes-no question. Should I do this? Yes, no. Be like, oh, yeah, here, buy this.

Just sprinkle some collagen on it. You could have just said yes. And then I would have been more likely to buy your thing. Yeah, I know. Cause just to support you. Cause you're like, yeah,

actually being helpful and not asking for anything and just being like, so, you know, I, I like that also just because I think it's, I think it's, it's in a way it's the, it's just the right thing.

It's, I don't know, treat people the way you want to be treated. And it comes back in a karmic way or whatever. You know what I mean? Absolutely. No, you're 100% right. That's awesome.

Cool, man. All right. Well, we've gone on for an hour now. We could sit and talk all kinds of random shit. But this has been great. Hopefully, everyone will like it. I think they will. And then, you know, if you're listening, go on.

You can email me or reach me, however you know how to, you know, social media, whatever, or drop a comment on YouTube. Um, that's the only, by the way, the area that I'm not good at responding because YouTube's comment management system sucks so bad. It's so inefficient. I hate it. Um, I do try to pop in and answer questions, but, um, so if you, if you've gotten, if you, if you've left comments on YouTube videos and I haven't responded, that's why. Because that would be, I'd have to spend like three hours a day just on YouTube answering comments to actually answer every one. Whereas when you comment on a blog post, I have it set up so I get an email and I'm able to manage it much more efficiently. That's why I can respond to all blog comments and still not just sit and answer, you know, comments all day.

Because I have to do other things as well. But let me know if you like this idea. I was thinking of doing a podcast like this with someone like Jordan once a month and talk about their experiences, again, not just with my programs, but more as a whole and just let the conversations go where they go, basically, is kind of the idea.

So let me know what you think. And thanks for taking the time, Jordan. No problem. Appreciate it. And yeah, I mean, anything, anything you want to add before we sign off? Uh, no, I just want to thank you guys again. And like, like I said, in my, in my success story, you know, there's going to be days where it sucks when you're reaching your goal. It's the struggle. That's, that's what makes people who they are. Like you could see how, as Mike explained, you know, starting his business and all that, it's, there's going to be hard days. There's going to be really good days, but you know, the fact is that you just put the work in every single day, just do,

you know, just stay on the track and just stay focused. That kind of like notes the grindstone, um, you know, you're going to, you're going to get where you want to get, you know, regardless. And, and, you know, I've, I've used that aspect in every, every form of my life now. And just to kind of get, you of get working towards anything. Yeah, be a plow horse, not a show horse. Yeah, or be both. Or both. But, yeah, no, so I just want to thank you again.

And, of course, again, I don't know how that would work if anyone had any questions for me or something. I know people have questions on Facebook and stuff like that. If you want to give your Twitter or Facebook, if you want people to come find you. I mean, if there's a common thing on this, I mean, that's probably – I'll check it out and I'll troll it a little bit. So, I mean, again, like I know – yeah, so, I mean, just thanks again and I appreciate the opportunity, Mike. Okay, yeah. My pleasure. All right.

Take care. Cool.