Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - How Lisa Transformed Her Physique & Doubled Her Strength in 9 Months

Episode Date: September 16, 2016

In this podcast, I interview Lisa J., who followed my Thinner Leaner Stronger program for 9 months and lost just 3 pounds but completely upgraded her physique. Before finding TLS, Lisa had felt "skinny fat" for as long as she could remember, and now she has guys coming up to compliment her on her strength and ask for weightlifting advice. Hah! In the interview, we talk about Lisa's journey and what key lessons she learned along the way, what obstacles she had to overcome as a working mom and how she made it work, how she overcame a wrist injury, and more. 6:25 - How was your training and diet before BLS? 8:34 - What is your exercise and fitness history? 9:35 - How did you hear about Mike Matthews? 10:19 - What were your expectations for the program? 12:30 - What were your thoughts after a few weeks? 14:27 - What have the results been up until now? 19:03 - What obstacles did you run into on the program? 21:03 - How do you make time for your workouts? 23:06 - Were there any sticking points on the program? 25:20 - How did you mentally get over your injury? 27:30 - What has helped you stay motivated? 29:30 - What are your goals from here? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey, it's Mike, and this podcast is brought to you by Legion, my line of naturally sweetened and flavored workout supplements. Now, as you probably know, I'm really not a fan of the supplement industry. I've wasted thousands and thousands of dollars over the years on worthless supplements that basically do nothing, and I've always had trouble finding products actually worth buying, and especially as I've gotten more and more educated as to what actually works and what doesn't. And eventually after complaining a lot, I decided to do something about it and start making my own supplements. The exact supplements I myself have always wanted. A few of the things that make my products unique are one,

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you're going to see that we explain why we've chosen each ingredient, and we cite all supporting evidence in the footnotes, so you can go look at the research for yourself and verify that we're doing the right thing. Three, all ingredients are also included at clinically effective dosages, which are the exact dosages used in those studies that prove their effectiveness. This is very important because while a molecule might be proven to, let's say, improve your workout performance, not all dosages are going to improve your workout performance. If you take too little, you're not going to see any effects. You have to take the right amounts. And the right amounts are the amounts proven to be effective in scientific research. And four, there are no proprietary

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that fun stuff. Now, I have several books, but the place to start is Bigger Leaner Stronger if you're a guy and Thinner Leaner Stronger if you're a girl. Now, these books, they're basically going to teach you everything you need to know about dieting, training, and supplementation to build muscle, lose fat, and look and feel great without having to give up all the foods you love or live in the gym grinding away at workouts you hate. And you can find my books everywhere. You can buy books online like Amazon, Audible, iBooks, Google Play, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, and so forth. And if you're into audiobooks like me, you can actually get one of my audiobooks for free with a 30-day free trial of Audible.

To do that, go to www.muscleforlife.com forward slash audiobooks. That's muscleforlife.com forward slash audiobooks, and you'll see how to do this. So thanks again for taking the time to listen to my podcast. I hope you enjoy it, and let's get to the show. Hey, hey, this is Mike, and welcome to another episode of my podcast. In this episode, I interview Lisa Jensen about her experience on my Thinner, Leaner, Stronger program. Now, I had done an interview like this a couple months ago with Jordan and he had talked about

his experience on my men's program, which is Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, and a lot of people liked it and asked if I would interview a woman about her experiences with weightlifting, flexible dieting, cardio, and so forth. And Lisa is that interview. And as you'll see, this isn't meant to be just a commercial for my program. What I really wanted to do is dig into the details. I wanted to find out from Lisa what worked well for her, what didn't work so well, what kind of adjustments did she make, what were the obstacles she went into and how did she overcome them and so on. And in Lisa's case, she's a working professional, she's a mom and she even ran into an injury. So she definitely had some things she had to work around.

So I think all of us can take something away from her story and from the interview and let's get to it. Hey Lisa, thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to talk to you because the last, let's see, I did, it was a little bit ago. I did an interview with a guy named Jordan who similar type of thing, but he was doing the guys program. So that got good feedback. So I thought it would be nice to talk to a girl. Happy to represent.

uh, that got good feedback. So I thought it would be nice to talk to a girl. Happy to represent. So just so everybody can get a sense of you and your lifestyle and what, uh, what it's like to be Lisa every day. Can you just give us a synopsis? Yeah, sure. Um, it's busy. So I'm 37, married. I have two kids. Um, I work full time, so i have a career in um corporate finance so i work you know normal hours eight to five ish my husband travels quite a bit too for work so between work and his travel and the kids you know getting workouts in is is a little challenging um very busy but i've always been active um even, even as a kid. So I'm used to fitting it in, um, into my life. So yeah, that's me. Cool. Yeah. I want to talk more about how exactly you

go about fitting in because, um, I would say probably my, my, the biggest demographics for, for me are kind of split between the college crowd and then people in their late twenties, early, mid, late thirties that, you know, have a fully packed life. And they run into that problem of between there. I mean, there's on like the meal, meal planning and prepping side, and then also on the exercise side. So I definitely want to hear about how you've been able to make it work. But before we talk about that, why don't you just tell us a bit about how things were previously before you had found any of my work and, you know, followed my program and stuff like that? Yeah, sure. So the term skinny fat was completely accurate for me. So I was at about 125 pounds, 17% body fat. So not huge, you know,

pretty scrawny person. I was working out five, six days a week, mostly running. I had just finished my third half marathon before I started this program. So, you know, I was pretty active running 20, 30 miles a week, eating pretty healthy, not a lot of protein. We'll get into that later, I'm sure. Right, right. You can just talk about that now, really. I mean, so what was, so you're doing a lot of running, and do you know, like, approximately what round-race calories were? What did your macros look like?

I actually have no idea, and that was part of the problem. So I'm, you know, working out five days a week, six days a week. You know, my stomach started feeling kind of jiggly. So I thought, you know, I'm doing something completely wrong. I'm eating wrong. Even though, you know, I didn't eat red meat, so I eat pretty healthy, eat a lot of vegetables. But I'm Italian, so I eat a lot of pasta, a lot of carbs, or I did anyway, I don't anymore. So I was just frustrated. I was tired. I felt like I was

constantly in the gym, constantly running, and I just looked bleh, like nothing exciting, like nothing exciting definitely had no definition um so i see you know see all these people online with all these muscles and abs and i'm like if i'm working out five days a week i'm not getting i'm not looking like that at all what are these people doing you know they must be doing something right yeah and then you look and then you also like a lot of them are showcasing their most uh the top kind of if it fits your macros type of meals, then you're really confused. Like, what is this? Yeah, exactly. And so the what were in terms of like in the past. So how long had you been running for?

Did you play sports growing up? Like, were you always into, you know, physical fitness or what's that what's the history there like was there was there a time previously where you're like i just wanted to look like how i was you know when i was whatever 25 no i've always looked you know pretty skinny but no definition totally skinny fat my whole life um i played soccer growing up so for like 16 17 years um and in college i was running going to the gym doing you know what i thought was heavy weights you know tossing around 15 pounds um you know thinking i was doing it kind of just gets boring basically like yeah exactly and then I guess I'll stop now. And then the older I got, I felt like I had to put more and more effort in at the gym to look the same.

So I wanted to do something different to kind of get over the hump. Yeah. And so then how did you hear about me and my work? Well, as I said, I knew I wasn't doing something right. So I started actually looking online, just Googling how to build muscle for women, how to get a lean look without looking like a guy. And I actually came across Thinner, Leaner, Stronger on Amazon. Oh, cool. And I read the little synopsis and I thought, okay, this sounds legit. I'm going to buy it and see what it's like.

I finished it in like a day and a half. I loved it. I liked that it wasn't gimmicky. It was based on science. There was no BS. It was something I could understand and it made sense. So I thought I'd give it a shot. Cool. And so then what did you kind of expect in the beginning there? Because I've worked with so many people now and it's one of the more common things that it's just kind of cliche, but that is just a roadblock for women is the idea that you're going to touch weight and you're just going to end up getting bulky. Did you worry about that?

I totally worried about that. And I told myself that I would try it for two weeks. And if I hated it or I started to look bulky, then I would stop. So I kind of made a deal with myself. I gave myself a two-week trial period. And nine months, a year later, here I am. That's great. And what was it like? Was it uncomfortable at first? Because I mean, obviously, you're new to weightlifting. Yeah. I can't tell you how big of a tool I felt. I mean, like walking into the gym, I didn't even know how to adjust the seat on the benches. So I'm trying to learn how to do things. I looked up a lot of YouTube videos, which actually helped a lot. But just trying to lift

the bar, doing the bench press, I just felt super self-conscious. Actually, I mean, that makes me, I don't know how I'm going to be doing a whole series of videos on a proper form and stuff. And actually I don't never, I mean, there's a lot of those out there, but I know that a lot of people that like my stuff would just like to see me explaining things. And there are certain things I would probably explain maybe better than some of the other videos that would come up for you to search. But that makes me think of, because I've heard, of course, the same thing from a lot of people, that a series of videos to go with it on how to not look like an idiot in the gym probably would be useful as well. That would be amazing.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then I realized that nobody was paying attention to me. Everybody's paying attention themselves. They're all watching themselves in the mirror. Yeah. They're too busy taking selfies and staring at themselves. Yeah, exactly. Recording themselves, doing all that. So after the first week, once I got through all the exercises, I was like, okay, I can do this. I made it. I didn't drop a weight on myself. I survived the first week. So I kept going. Nice. And so, okay, so you're like a couple weeks in now. And what are your thoughts at that point?

Because that was your trial period. I loved it. I mean, I was hooked from the beginning. It just made me feel like I could accomplish something. I mean, I know that sounds completely cheesy, but you know, just getting over that initial hump, I kind of felt proud of myself. And then I started seeing, you know, it didn't take long. It took maybe two, three weeks to start seeing a difference. You know, I could feel it in my energy level. I could start to see it in my muscles. You know, as I said, I lifted, you know, very light weights before. So I had some muscle, but, you know, very light weights before. Um, so I had some muscle, but you know, it didn't take a whole lot of time for the, for the definition to start showing, which was, you know, made it

even more addictive. Right. Yeah, totally. And that's the case with, um, if, if you are relatively lean and you just don't have enough muscle, then you're in a, you're in a good place to, to see fast results. And I mean, similarly, I guess that everyone can see fast results. It just kind of depends on what those results are going to, what those results are going to be kind of depends on where they're starting. So in your case, you were starting relatively lean. You just didn't have a lot of muscle. So you see that change fairly quickly because if you're doing things right and you're eating right, you know, your body responds quickly as you see. And then if somebody's overweight, then, you know, if they can start out losing two pounds a week, maybe they don't, depending on how overweight they are, maybe they don't see that in the mirror as much as they would hope.

Or, you know, maybe they're not going to see a dramatic transformation in two weeks, but they can see it on the scale. Similarly with guys, if guys start out too skinny. So that's the nice thing, just to your point of just where it's just motivating. Because even from a marketing perspective, if you want to, the best thing you can do to sell people on something is give them instant results. And it's nice that, you know, if it doesn't take long, if you know what you're doing to get instant results or what feels like instant results if you've been grinding away for a long time. Yeah, definitely. And so fast forward now to today. So what have the results been like up until now?

I mean, in how is it not just in the gym, but you had mentioned, you know, obviously there's spillover to other areas of your life. So how do things look now? areas of your life. So how do things look now? Yeah. So numbers wise, now I'm at about 122, 123 pounds and just under 14% body fat. So, um, I lost a little bit of weight, you know, honestly, I didn't really want to lose a whole lot. Um, if any, I just kind of wanted to transform what I had into, um, muscle so I can see a little bit more definition. I actually like what I look like. For my age, my weight, I'm pretty happy. I definitely feel like I'm just starting and I have a long way to go. But things that I didn't expect happened. Like I said, I was

such a newbie at first and I felt like everyone was staring at me. I went from that to, you know, guys coming up to me asking, you know, what I think about them doing, you know, different things in the gym. Like the T-bar row I was doing. I'd never seen anybody do it before. I had to look it up on YouTube. So I'm doing it, and this guy comes up to me, and I'm like, and he's like, hey, do you have a second? I'm looking around like, is he talking to me? And he's like, yeah, you know. You're like waiting for the line me um and he's like yeah you know what you're like waiting for the line yeah like yeah i was like okay what do you got um he's like no you

know do you just wrap your towel around the bar do you what what kind of grip do you use on that and i'm like wow this is kind of cool he's actually asking me for advice yeah um from that too i had a guy come up to me after i was doing pull-ups and he's like, I just want to let you know for a scrawny girl, you sure are strong. And I was like, yes. You said you mentioned you could, what, you do like 15 pull-ups? Yeah. Do I remember that great? Yeah. That's impressive. That's strong.

So, you know, things like that, that I just never would have expected. I have like, I did not really think about having a, having a butt before having legs before. Um, I've always, always focused on arms and abs. Um, but like body parts that I didn't know that I even wanted. I was like, this is awesome. That's so that's, that's, that's like the guy thing. Like, oh, I just want big biceps and I just want abs and one big chest. Usually, usually it's the other way around.

Usually it's that's of like secondary importance to to women that i speak with yeah i mean i'm so like scrawny that i just never thought i could have that um but now i do so it's pretty cool so yeah things i didn't expect kind of happened that ended up being really cool um and like you said it started to bleed into other areas like you know even with my kids um into other areas, like, you know, even with my kids, um, trying to instill in them, you can do hard things, you know, put in the work. Now you will get results. Um, just little by little, I got a big project at work, um, about six months ago, you know, and just that mentality of, you know, constantly grinding at something, even if it's

hard, you will get the results if you're constantly working on it, and, you know, doing your best work. So it's definitely helped. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's, what is it? I think it's, I think it's James Altucher, how he pronounces his name. He's a writer guy that, I mean, he's just paraphrasing what somebody else has said, I'm sure. But he'd say that like, you know, a lot of success is just showing up. There's, there's truth in that. It's, If you just show up every day and put in at least halfway sensible work, then eventually you get there. And that's cool with your kids too.

I mean, I can relate to that because I have a four-year-old son. So setting a good example in that way is something that, you know, is going to pay off for both of you later down the line. I think especially in today's overly politically correct culture where it's like, Oh, you finished 30th. Here's a gold star. Yeah. No, you finished 30th. You suck. You need to get better. I think there's value in having to do hard things and uh not being coddled but i guess that's a different discussion that's a whole other conversation fitness though fitness though is is is uh almost therapeutic i think in that sense that it forces you to do

hard things every day that uh you may not want to, but you have a purpose for it. And, you know, I think that just getting into that habit of overriding your momentary desires with your, you know, long-term goals is just a valuable, it's almost like a skill that you learn, I guess. Yeah, definitely. So what obstacles have you run into while on the program? Like, because, and this is also, this is also just an opportunity for me to get feedback because I'm always looking for feedback and, you know, I've done several updates to, to pretty much all of my books actually, and all of my stuff.

And so I always like to hear with what did I not think of basically, or what was just kind of unique to your situation that other people, you know, were similar where they might be having similar issues and how did you overcome those, those, uh, problems? Yeah. So I had the benefit of having some newbie gains with, um, not having lifted weights a whole lot before. Um, so I feel like I, I had that at first, then I plateaued some. And then I just started totally psyching myself out. So I was like, am I eating the right amount? Am I getting enough protein?

I was reading articles online, and I was just confusing myself. So that's actually when I got your meal plan. Oh, okay. And I realized I was eating generally the right amount of calories, but I was not eating nearly enough protein. So I made the changes to my diet and I mean, that made a huge, huge difference. What, what differences did you see like before and after fixing that? Just like the definition of my muscles. I mean, it made a huge difference between that and the, um, your, is it recharge? Yeah. Um, so I started taking that too. Nice. And that just, I mean, I feel like I, my muscles like popped a little bit more, um, after that. And I definitely

felt like with the protein, I just, I just looked leaner, you know, in the mirror. I could just, I just could tell it made a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, that's, I've heard that many times and the, the low protein thing is very common among women in particular, just because I guess a lot of women I speak with are not really inclined to eating a lot of meat. And you can get enough protein if you don't really eat meat, but you have to really try. It's not easy to do, you know? And then regarding making time for your workout. So you mentioned earlier, you're very busy and your schedule's packed and you have two kids and et cetera, et cetera. So how do you do that? So I have been on the three-day program

and then I do cardio on one day on the weekend. So my schedule at work varies. I mean, I have meetings, you know, all day, like pretty much everybody else. I have the benefit of having a huge gym at work with personal trainers. And I mean, it's, it's awesome. Um, so I try to go at lunch a couple of days a week. So I sometimes have to go in the morning. Um, but I said, my husband is, um, he runs marathons, so he has to run, you know, some of whatever God awful number of miles he runs a week. So we're just constantly trying to balance, you know, his time and my workout time. But you have to plan it. Like I look at my calendar every Sunday and I look at my meetings and I set a meeting for myself.

I know that sounds kind of ridiculous, but I block off my calendar. That's important. And I set it for myself and I didn't miss a single workout for nine months. So it works, but I obviously had to definitely work at it. I mean, sometimes I was in the gym at five in the morning, sometimes in the afternoons, trying to squeeze it in between meetings,

that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome in the afternoons, trying to squeeze it in between meetings, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And I think it just speaks to that it's more a matter of priority and just making the decision that I'm going to do this one way or another than anything else, I think. Absolutely. I mean, I similarly have, I mean, I get up at 5.30 and I have nonstop work and whatever. And I also have a son and blah, blah, blah. So I totally know where you're coming from, where you're just like, this is how it's going to be this week. This is going to be the times.

And the only thing that's going to stop me is someone that I care about is in the hospital or something. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah. So that's cool. Were there any other sticking points or anything that you ran into on the program? Yeah, I got a case of wrist tendonitis. Um, so trying to stay as strong as I possibly could with, you know, an injury was, was tough. And honestly, trying to stay mentally strong was even harder. Um, you know, still going to the gym, still working out what I could, um, my legs got stronger. Um, um, but now I'm back at, you know, pretty close to the strength I was at before, but that was a pretty big setback. So, you know,

trying to get my, my brain around that and my, my mind, right, that this will end, this will pass. I just need to keep at it, keep my nutrition right, which was, you know, it's easy to just, okay, well, my wrist hurts, so I'm just going to go eat lasagna, you know. So trying to keep what I could control in line was kind of challenging. Yeah, and how did that happen? Was it just like a freak type of thing or? I don't know. I think it was doing bicep curls on a straight bar.

Oh, okay. But it wasn't, you know, one day it suddenly had hurt. It was just kind of gradually over time. Yeah, that's how it goes. I actually was running, I ran into some of that recently in my biceps tendon where, um, I mean, I talked about it on the, actually, I don't know if you're the podcast, but I spoke with the sports doctor Adam on the podcast who has helped me now it's more or less gone. So I know how annoying that can be where it just creeps up. And like, you think maybe it's just a tight muscle or something that'll just go away and then it doesn't go away. And then once

it's there, it's like, you just wonder, are you ever going to feel normal again? Yeah, exactly. And it was actually your podcast about the ART. I went to a sports chiropractor and had some ART and it worked like a charm. So yeah, thanks to you. Yeah, I've tried quite a few things and that was the one. So now I'm fully sold on it. I mean, also mechanically, it makes sense. It was just, I hadn't heard of it. It's not very mainstream, I guess.

Yeah, I hadn't heard of it before either. Yeah. So with the injury, what were like mentally, how did you kind of just resolve to, how did you get over that point where now it's like precarious? Like maybe you're going to continue. Maybe you're just going to use this as an excuse to, uh, indulge our, you know, the person in us that just wants to like sit on the couch and do nothing and eat ice cream. Yeah. So I thought about just going back to running. I thought,

you know, this isn't for me. I'm too old for this. You know, my, my wrists aren't, you know, and I just kept kind of like the two week thing. I'm like, I'm going to give it one more week. I'm going to give it one more week. And if it's not feeling any better after this week, I'm going to stop doing everything for, you know, three weeks and let it heal. And slowly, you know, week by week, I'm like, okay, okay it felt better and as i was able to add on weight and exercises um you know my confidence that i could that i was going to get better um came back nice and then where uh in the timeline did you get art and it was that something that like finally kind of handled it or yeah so i this is actually pretty recent so i injured myself in june so it was like four weeks in into the injury where i had the art and then i had maybe six sessions six or seven sessions it after about two sessions i could get back to doing

you know the big lifts you might get the dead lifts and the squats and the not at the same weights. But so then after about five, six, you know, now I'm probably about 90%, 95%. That's great. And that's funny on the, just I'm going to give it one more week or two weeks. It reminds me of even on an individual task where if you're just kind of running up against a lot of internal resistance on something, something that's simple for me, I don't know, I picked this up in a book somewhere

and it just kind of stuck with me, is that if there's something I don't want to do, then I kind of trick myself by, okay, I'll give it 10 minutes. If after 10 minutes I hate doing this, then I'm just not going to do it. And then inevitably you get going on it and you're like, ah, this isn't so bad. Yep. That's exactly it.

So is there anything else that has kind of helped you stay motivated to, to kind of keep at it now for nine months? And, and then, I mean, what are your, what are your plans going forward from here? What are your, cause it sounds like you've kind of maybe achieved a lot of your initial goals. So what's, where do you go from here? What are your, cause it sounds like you've kind of maybe achieved a lot of your initial goals. So what's, where do you go from here? Yeah. So as far as motivation, you know, I actually, I physically and mentally like need it now, um, which is bizarre. Um, it's kind of gives me a mental release, a physical release. Um, you know, and every time I think, oh, I just don't want to go to the gym today. It's raining or it's cold oh i just don't want to go to the gym today it's raining or it's cold i just don't want to go over there i always think i've never worked out and regretted it but i have not worked out and regretted it um so you know just trying to take

it kind of one workout at a time the deload weeks actually helped a lot in the beginning now i kind of dread them i look forward to them and I'm like, oh yeah, if I can just make it to the deload week and then they come and I'm like, oh, now I have to wait a week. But it's just improved my mood, my sleep. You know, if I come home stressed, my husband's like, did you not work out today? You know, what's wrong with you? So it's just, just kind of, it's how I feel, you know, right now. You know, if I'm stressed, if I'm feeling anxious about anything, it definitely takes care of it. It's kind of, it's just weird that it's, you know, worked out that way.

Yeah. Which is to be expected. I mean, that's one of those things, just like many things in this space where there is a lot of scientific research that says that and a lot of anecdotal where, you know, a lot of people say the same thing, but it doesn't, it just doesn't really sink in. It's not really real until you experience it for yourself. You know, like even people hearing it, if they haven't experienced that yet, they will at some point. And, and then it's one of those things that it sounds cliche, but you know, it's, uh, there's a lot of truth in it. Yeah. I, I, I wouldn't have believed it before either.

I know. And, and so now what are your goals from here? Because now, uh, I mean, you're in great shape. So is it, do you, are there certain areas of your body that you're looking to improve now? Or are you looking more to just maintain or what's the plan? No, I mean, I'm still pretty little as far as, um, my physique, you know, lean, um, and muscular, but, but pretty little. Um, so, you know, I'm still, I still like the continuous challenge of, you know, how strong can I get, you know, can I get to my next PR? So once I'm at a hundred percent

with my wrist, which I mean, I'm, I'm probably a week or two out, I'm going to bulk a little bit probably, get some more muscle on me through the winter, and then do another cut probably late winter, early spring. Nice. I like it. I mean I don't want to be huge, but I would like to be a little bit bigger, a little bit more defined. Yeah. And as you'll see, I mean, there is no, oops, I accidentally got huge. Right. Especially not for women. I mean, women generally can gain muscle like pretty effectively, but most women start with so little muscle that that's really one of the big differences between guys and girls with lifting is that guys just start with a lot more muscle and strength. So, uh, if you put 10 pounds of muscle on the average guy, it just visually is more striking than 10 pounds

on, you know, a girl, especially if, if the girl's starting skinny. Right. Yeah. Awesome. Well, um, this has been great and I don't, I'm out of questions. So is there anything else that you would like to say or add? I don't think so. I mean, it's just, it's been a life changer. So if anybody's thinking about it on the fence, give it two weeks, give it a try. If you hate it, stop doing it. Yeah, I like that. And it's, you know, hey, you can even get the Kindle version of the book and if you don't like it and it's you know hey you can even get the Kindle version of the book and if you don't like it

and it doesn't work for you you can just refund it so you don't even pay anything yeah see that's actually how I bought it so yeah

okay awesome well thanks a lot for being willing to do this Lisa I really appreciate it and I hope people like it I think they will

and definitely keep me posted on how everything goes you can always you know write anytime you have any questions or whatever especially with bulkingking. Anyways. Yeah. It's not, I've written a lot about, it's not complicated, but it's similar with cutting. You need to stick

to your diet or just the fat gain gets out of control. Basically. That's the only caveat. All right. Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, definitely. Hey, it's Mike again. Hope you liked the podcast. If you did go ahead and subscribe. I put out new episodes every week or two where I talk about all kinds of things related to health and fitness and general wellness. Also head over to my website at www.muscleforlife.com where you'll find not only past episodes of the podcast, but you'll also find a bunch of different articles that I've written. I release

a new one almost every day, actually. I release kind of four to six new articles a week. And you can also find my books and everything else that I'm involved in over at muscleforlife.com. All right. Thanks again. Bye.