Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - How Tara Lost 80 Pounds With Thinner Leaner Stronger

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, hello, and welcome to a new episode of Muscle For Life. I am your host, Mike Matthews. Thank you for joining me today. And if you like my podcast, take a moment and subscribe to it in whatever app you are listening to, because one, it'll make sure you don't miss any new episodes. They will be queued up for you. And two, it'll help me because it will boost the ranking of the show on the various charts, and that will help other people find me in my work. So in this episode, I interview Tara, who read my book, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger, and used what she learned to dramatically transform her body, her physique, to gain a bunch of strength, to gain a bunch of lean muscle. And her journey is an interesting one because some time ago, she was very overweight. She's

Starting point is 00:00:52 five foot five. She weighed 204 pounds. Her doctor told her she was morbidly obese and that struck a chord with her. And she decided to lose weight because that sounded really bad. And she had a problem though, because she didn't know what to do. Her doctor didn't have good weight loss advice for her. So she just decided to do what most women do when they want to lose weight. And that is a lot of cardio, like a couple of hours of cardio every day and not a lot of food. And of course that works if all you want to do is lose weight. That approach did help her lose 60 pounds, but it didn't give her the body she wanted.

Starting point is 00:01:40 As she explains in this episode, in some ways, she preferred being much bigger because, for example, her clothes fit better when she was bigger. But now that she was smaller and skinny fat, to use her term for it, her clothing didn't fit right, her body didn't look right, and she had no idea what to do. She had put in all this work and lost a lot of weight, like her doctor said, but she was not happy with her body. Then though, she found my work through a conversation she overheard at the gym, which I love, and she found Thinner Leaner Stronger. She read it, she learned about macros,

Starting point is 00:02:20 she learned about energy balance, she learned about strength training, and she started to train according to the book. She started to follow the Thinner, Leaner, Stronger program, and she continued to lose weight and now lose fat because now she was also gaining muscle. So she was transforming her body composition now, getting stronger, and the loose skin that she had from all of the weight loss was starting to fill out. And now fast forward to today, Tara is about 127 pounds. She is in the best shape of her life. She has done thinner, leaner, stronger training for three years now. She's followed

Starting point is 00:02:59 the year one challenge for women three times, which you can absolutely do so long as you are still progressing. And she went from being unable to lift the bar off of her chest in the beginning of her strength training now to barbell bench pressing triple digits, which is pretty impressive. And so in this interview, I interviewed Tara. We talk about her story. We talk about some of the obstacles she had to navigate around along the way, including how she had to change her diet and her training and how she overcame gym intimidation, particularly in the beginning and her thoughts on her fears of getting bulky and more. Also, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books,

Starting point is 00:03:46 including the number one best-selling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever. And you can find them on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes and Noble stores. And I should also mention that you can get any of the audio books 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And this is a great way to make those pockets of downtime,

Starting point is 00:04:29 like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning more interesting, entertaining, and productive. And so if you want to take Audible up on this offer, and if you want to get one of my audiobooks for free, just go to www.buylegion.com and sign up for your account. So again, if you appreciate my work, and if you want to see more. So again, if you appreciate my work, and if you want to see more of it, and if you want to learn time-proven and evidence-based strategies for losing fat, building muscle and getting healthy and strategies that work for anyone and everyone, regardless of age or circumstances, please do consider picking up one of my best-selling books, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger for Men, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger for Women, and The Shredded Chef for my favorite fitness-friendly recipes.

Starting point is 00:05:13 Hey Tara, it's nice to meet you and welcome to my podcast. Hey Mike. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it. I appreciate being on the show. I appreciate being on the show. Yeah. So these episodes are really just about people who have found me in my work and found it helpful and give them a chance to share their story. A lot of people find them inspiring and they pick up little tips and tricks that can help them in their journeys. And so why don't we start with a little bit about you and where you were at in your health and fitness before finding me and my work, and then where are you at now? And then from there, so we just have a before and after snapshot basically, and then let's rewind and let's hear the story of

Starting point is 00:06:05 how you went from there to here. Okay. So I am 31 right now, going to be 32 this fall. And I've kind of been in the fitness space, what I would call for about eight years. Prior to finding you, I'm 5'5", just for like an image. And I was about 204 pounds at my heaviest and that was eight years ago My doctor at the time told me that I was morbidly obese That I needed to lose some weight and that was kind of a trigger for me I'd never really been referenced in that term before And it was something hard for me to hear so I took that and I ran with it I honestly had no idea

Starting point is 00:06:46 what I was doing. I didn't know what to eat or how to eat. And I had never had a gym membership in my life. So what I did was went home. I threw away everything that was in a box because at the time, that's just what people said. You don't eat processed foods. And I got a gym membership. And because I didn't know what I was doing, I literally just started doing cardio two or three, sometimes three hours a day, seven days a week. And of course, as you can imagine, cutting out foods, and I also cut out alcohol. I lost a lot of weight really fast. And I ended up losing about 64 pounds in total in just under seven and a half months. Wow. At that time, I had started to really enjoy fitness. I was watching what people were doing in

Starting point is 00:07:35 the gym, trying to pick up on some things, but still would never get in the region of dumbbells or barbells. So I was using any type of weighted bands or I was in the side room where people couldn't see you. That's really how I started. Fast forward, probably three and a half or four years, people started talking to me and asking me for help when they would hear my story. And so I became more interested in learning and I just started reading online articles. And that's kind of how I got into more involvement in the fitness world in regards to not just showing up for myself. I fell in love with it. And over time, really tried to just focus on becoming educated enough to change my career

Starting point is 00:08:27 field. And then in the summer of 2015, my dad passed away. And that was kind of my next step in making a change. So after his death, I put on, I would say, what would be about 30 to 35 pounds over the course of a couple of years. It wasn't fast. I was still eating clean. I was still going to the gym, but I had also made a career change.

Starting point is 00:08:56 So I went from working behind a desk to managing for SNAP fitness facilities in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. So I got into the fitness space. I spent all my time around it. I started trading clients. I got certified as a personal trainer and a yoga instructor. And then I ended up getting super burnt out from that. So over the time, the course of my dad passing away and then also managing gyms, I kind of got out of the interest of working out because that's all that I did. And in the summer of 2018, I quit my job managing fitness facilities. And that's when I actually found you. And I actually overheard somebody who now is a big

Starting point is 00:09:41 part of my life. He was talking about biggerger Leaner Stronger in the gym that I was working out at. And I picked up on it and I Googled you and that's when I found Thinner Leaner Stronger. So it's been about three, just over three years since I found you. I love it. So many gym locker talk over hearing somebody mentioning I've just heard that many times and and of course I understand being in gyms for a long time the the there's a big social component but it's always just nice to to hear that my work gets word of mouth because that's ultimately for me I think the biggest compliment is that somebody liked something I did enough to tell others about it. That really is the goal, right? Of producing any sort of content whatsoever.

Starting point is 00:10:32 And so then how did you get back into your own personal fitness? And I can understand the experience you went through I've gone through it to some degree in my own way in that before this is all I did it was something I did for myself and it was something that I did with with friends that's how I got into weightlifting and I really enjoyed it and now it's it's all I do really is mostly all I do is work. And I spend some time with my family and all my work, of course, is focused on fitness. And I wouldn't say that I've, I don't think I've even come close to burnout, but I will

Starting point is 00:11:15 say that it has lost a little bit of its luster. It's not as fitness is not as fun as it was when that's all I'm doing 50 to 70 hours per week. So I do totally understand that. Totally understandable. So when I say burnt out, what it was for me was because I went into the whole fitness realm, honestly, very uneducated. I lost all of that weight so fast without literally ever touching a dumbbell or a barbell. So I honestly hated the way I looked 64 pounds lighter than I did 64 pounds heavier because while I was bigger,

Starting point is 00:11:54 I was more filled out. If that makes sense, that term skinny fat that you talk about, I mean, that is a real thing. And especially as a young woman, having loose skin does not make you feel any better than just being overweight. Frankly, it's even harder because you fit into stuff really week. And then what would happen is I would either eat the same things on the weekend, or I would binge super, super hard because I hadn't had anything else. And when I decided to quit my job and get back into fitness, my plan was literally just to find someone else who had a plan and follow that. Because obviously what I was doing wasn't working to get me that physique that I would see in images that I desired so badly. And TLS was the 100% opposite thing that I thought that I would be finding. But when I ordered your book and I read it, not only did it make it simple, but it made it confident. It was easy to read. It was easy to follow along. And it literally answered all my why's. Why am I not losing weight? Why is my skin so loose? Why don't I look better even though I've

Starting point is 00:13:18 lost all this weight? And it just solidified what I had done and where I had gotten, but also what I needed to do to progress forward. So I was super intimidated when I started training with TLS because I'd never touched a barbell in my life. And Jeremy, the guy from the gym, he had done bigger, leaner, stronger. So he actually became my gym buddy. He kind of coached me a little bit when I'd ask him questions. He was super knowledgeable on it. He had been using bigger, leaner, stronger for just a few more months than me. But it's like you say, when you start telling people that and you hear that other people know what it is, it's kind of like this group and they just get together. And then I got onto the Facebook group for Thinner,

Starting point is 00:14:05 Leaner, Stronger and would read people's feedback on there. And then when I got really comfortable, I started giving feedback on there, but it gave me a ton of freedom. So obviously it's losing weight and just my personality type. I like weightlifting because it's always a challenge with yourself. It gives you something to look forward to at the gym. It's a way to focus on yourself and also challenge yourself every time you go in there. And your programming made it super easy to always know what I was doing. And I had a goal when I'd walk in the door. So every time I left, even maybe if I only got a couple more reps that day, I was always feeling like I had

Starting point is 00:14:45 made some success in my journey. And that I really wanted to just learn. I wanted to take it slow. And so that's what I did. And honestly, I've gone through your one-year transformation three times now. I've lost a total of just over 39 and a half pounds. So in my fitness journey as a whole, I've lost about 80 pounds and I am fitter now than I literally ever been in my whole life. And I'm just on the tail end of getting ready to start my first lean bulk. And that's kind of my next step. And it's a little terrifying coming from where I am, but I still have just a little bit of loose skin that I know isn't going to go anywhere unless I make a next step in the progress. Yeah, and just to point up something that you said about showing up to your workouts in a little bit of a friendly competition with yourself.

Starting point is 00:15:40 And I totally agree with that. And that's one of the great things about training versus exercise. And exercise is great. I don't want to knock exercise. But exercise is more just moving your body for the sake of moving your body. And that could be moving your limbs with resistance training exercises, or it could just be going for a walk. Whereas training is a more systematic, methodological way of approaching your exercise. And it's particularly important to have that training system as opposed to just an exercise system when you are in the process of transforming your physique, because

Starting point is 00:16:19 when you are training, like you just said, you know that if you beat your previous performance by just a couple of reps, that's a W. You can pat yourself on the back. But if you're just exercising, nothing, of course, immediately changes in your body. You got in there. You did something for 30, 45, 60 minutes. You sweat. And then you just have to wonder, well, was that any good? Did that matter?

Starting point is 00:16:46 Did I, did I get any better? I don't know. And so that mentality is, is particularly helpful. And you're probably experiencing that even more now when you're an intermediate and an advanced weightlifter because progress is slower. And so by being very familiar with training, it allows you to continue staying motivated because otherwise you may have developed strong enough habits to just keep going to the gym, but it's certainly more fun when you have good programming and you can see slow but steady progress? Absolutely. And I can say for certain, it's definitely a W because there's been a lot of

Starting point is 00:17:32 things outside my own personal desire to look and feel good. The grief of my dad going to the gym and being able to show up and have a plan so I didn't have to think about anything, but just honestly take out my grief sometime on the way. That was a big deal for me. And when you talk about actually training versus just moving truly the first couple of years that I lost weight, that's all I was doing. I had no way to track progress besides the fact that I was losing weight, but it was in such an aggressive form that you kind of, obviously you plateau and then there's only either you eat less or you move more or maybe both. And then it's not enjoyable. And even now, uh, I will say the first year in TLS, I had a really hard time breaking my

Starting point is 00:18:19 honestly addiction to, to cardio. And there were times I'd run and run and run, or I'd show up extra early and I just couldn't get out of that habit. And then it was one of those things where, of course, movement equals hunger in those times when you're, especially when you're in the deficit. So there were times I kind of had to remind myself, like, I wouldn't be this hungry if I would just get off of the treadmill or, you know, that was the hardest transition for me was getting out of that cardio state of mind, because that's what's pushed so hard in the, in the fitness industry, especially for women. I feel that's where they're comfortable. You know, they don't want to get big and bulky and they're afraid of picking up a barbell. I mean, I certainly was.

Starting point is 00:18:58 So now when I go in there, it's actually one of the biggest motivators for me is that you always, I almost always notice that women look at other women when they're lifting weights. And I feel like it's a great opportunity to break the ice and talk to people about it and get them to maybe shift their mindset a little bit. Yeah. And it's almost like inviting them to come try it, you know, especially if they look you, if they look you and they're like, wow, she's pretty fit. She doesn't look big and bulky and she's there squatting and deadlifting and doing all these things that the guys do. How was that when, when you initially started? That's something I wanted to ask about because of course that is something I hear from many women

Starting point is 00:19:39 that they have to push themselves to trust. Like if they're coming from Thin Leaner Stronger or some other work of mine, where I've tried to be as persuasive as I can to just say, hey, just give this like a month or two. I understand if you're concerned about being bulky and let me walk you through why it's not that simple. And just give me a month or two. And I think you're gonna be happy with what you see just in that a month or two. And I think you're going to be happy with what you see

Starting point is 00:20:07 just in that short period of time, but you got to make a little leap of faith. And if I'm wrong and it doesn't work for you, fortunately, you can just stop doing it and whatever bulkiness you might have gained, you will quickly lose. So it's really a win-win proposition. Let's give it a go. you will quickly lose. So it's really a, you know, a win-win proposition. Let's give it a go. Yeah, for sure. I will say when I first started calculating my macros was the hardest thing for me because I went from prepping all my food and feeling like there's no way I could be overeating when I quickly realized that I was under eating pretty severely on top of all of the workouts that I was doing. So I was as intimidated by the nutrition part as I was by actually going into the gym. And when I actually figured out what

Starting point is 00:20:52 I was supposed to be eating and I got my scale and I followed through with what you ask in the book and what you suggest, it was one of those things for me, exactly exactly what you said, like hold tight for a few months, because initially I did gain a couple of pounds when I actually started eating a true amount of calories. And it was like a light switch because the first two or three weeks I was really hesitant. The scale was going up and it was persistent after that for probably 13 weeks that I was losing weight. So it's a mindset shift. You really have to be open to just holding on. And then in the same question about the gym, it was intimidating.

Starting point is 00:21:35 You always feel, of course, as a woman, like everybody is staring at you. And so I always saw myself like, okay, if I'm going to deadlift, I'm going to bring the barbell in the back corner where hopefully less people will see me back there. And then squatting, thankfully, the rack at my gym at that time was also in the back corner. So I did kind of hide off a little bit for the first month or two until I got confidence in my form. And then it just turned into this thing where it felt so good to go in there and know what I was doing and not have to ask or wonder if this was going to do what I wanted it to do because I was just trusting the process and it was working. And I think that's a great tip for people who are intimidated, who are probably early on or maybe about to start their fitness journey and who are intimidated, men or women. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing exactly what you did.

Starting point is 00:22:28 If you're more comfortable picking the rack in the back, just go pick the rack in the back. If you're more comfortable taking the barbell somewhere where you're not the center of attention, then do it. I don't see that there's anything wrong with that. For sure. It was a good way to start for me. And now, of course. I don't think people should shame themselves like, oh, I'm just a coward or I'm so...

Starting point is 00:22:51 No. Not at all. No. I think that makes perfect sense. And if somebody feels like they don't need to do that and they're okay with the level of discomfort they feel just grabbing whatever rack is free, then that's fine too. Yep. And it's different for everybody. And I think that even as an advanced weightlifter, there are times where, you know, you walk into the gym and there's a bunch of people and you're like, well, I wish there was less people here because everyone just kind of has that vibe sometimes. But there's nothing wrong with starting in a place that maybe takes away less of the discomfort if it gets you to a place where you're confident in at least being there.

Starting point is 00:23:29 And that's what I had to do for myself. So I would certainly suggest that for, I mean, men or women. Everyone kind of has their own level of comfort to begin. And, you know, I still today, I'm not uncomfortable in the gym, but I don't care to get any attention. I like an emptier gym because then I'm not waiting for equipment. Although I'd say the gym that I go to, all of the people I've spoken with have been pretty cool. At least when I go, there aren't any over the top kind of weirdos or, or just obnoxious people.

Starting point is 00:24:08 Um, but, but I, I prefer an emptier gym because I'm there to do my workout and get back to doing my work. And, you know, I don't care to try to get any attention. I'm not, uh, I'm not, I'm not all that strong anyway, but so, you know, I, I, I can relate to that even having done this now for 20 years. Yeah. So I am always curious, do you work out in a smaller gym setting? Are you at a larger gym setting? What works generally best for you? Do you kind of hop around? No. So there's a Gold's gym that is eight minutes down the road from where I live. So I live in Ocala, Florida, and there's a great Gold's gym there. I guess the story is I met the owner of

Starting point is 00:24:55 it the other day, super nice guy. I heard the story from somebody else. So this guy has a lot of money and he lives in this area and he wanted a good gym to go to for himself and for his buddies. So he bought a shopping center that had a supermarket. It was like a Winn-Dixie's or something. And he then went around the country looking at different golds gyms to see what he liked, different layouts, different equipment. And he just made notes. I like this. Okay. I want to have turf. I want to have the, this type of, uh, bodybuilding section of the gym, which is pretty cool where they have like a belt squat, which you don't normally see. And they have a safety bar, deadlift platform, trap bar, a lot of hammer strength stuff. And so after he had done his due diligence, I guess you could say, he then opened his own

Starting point is 00:25:45 golds franchise here in Ocala and just put a bunch of money into it, bought a ton of equipment and multiples of almost everything. And I don't use the pool, but it's nice. And it's just an impressively nice golds. And so I really like working out there. And I go in the middle of the day, like I go around 12 or 1230 usually, and there aren't many people and anybody who goes to the gym around the same time every day knows that you have your crowd then, right? So it's usually the same people

Starting point is 00:26:19 who are generally going. So, um, I, you know, I've met a few of the, of the regulars, a couple professional bodybuilders, a couple of physique guys, and a couple other just random people, mostly guys, the, not that I'm like trying to go up to talk to girls, but the guys tend to be more friendly for, for whatever reason. That seems fairly typical. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe in a couple, a couple of the women there are like a couple, a couple of the women there are like our fitness, a couple of them are competitors. And so they probably just don't want to be bothered again. It's not like I'm walking around bothering people, but I do like to socialize a little bit. If I'm going to the gym every day and seeing the same people, I think it's

Starting point is 00:26:59 a little bit weird when I've been seeing the same people for three months, five days a week. And I haven't even said hi. It's, it's, I almost see it's like, it's kind of, I see it as, as it's just a bit, it's not my personality. And it also, it may be taken the wrong way where not that anybody knows that I do fitness stuff and fitness or whatever, but I just think it's nice to be friendly with people when you see them every single day. Um, but just like casual interaction. Yeah. Like no, no, their names and, uh, usually the, the, the discussions revolve just around training or whatever, but that's fine. You know, it's, uh, I think it's your workout done. Yeah. And I think it adds a little bit to the experience as well. So, so yeah, so I, I really liked that gym. That's actually one of my favorite gyms that I've trained in in a long time just for the reasons I just gave. And I'll be staying there more.

Starting point is 00:27:57 I mean, I don't even know if there's another gym in the area because there's no way it's better than that. So, I haven't even looked. No need to then. Yeah. in the area because there's no way it's better than that. So I haven't even looked. Uh, and I may do that. Yeah. Yeah. I may end up, uh, putting, it would probably be in a separate building on my property. So I'm going to be building a house and a barn. So we have a couple of horses and I may be putting another building on the property where I'll put a home gym and a couple of other things like a golf simulator and stuff, kind of like a man cave, I guess. And so if I, if I end up doing that, then I'll train there, but I will, I will probably miss golds a little bit. I like the

Starting point is 00:28:40 convenience, but then again, it's only like an eight minute drive. So I'm actually, I'm on the fence whether I even care to do it because I wasn't expecting to like the gym as much as I do, you know? Yeah, for sure. My gym isn't far from me, which makes the commitment to that. I also, I've always chosen the five day split. I dropped down to four days my second year in to thinner, leaner, stronger, just because with my job and my business, it was easier for me to manage four days, but it lasted only for an eight-week phase because I can't go three days during the week without a lift. So I'm back to five days. I prefer five days. The gym that I lift at is an anytime franchise and it's about nine minutes from my house. So it's easy to get to convenience and kind of like you, the times that I'm there and I know the people that are there.

Starting point is 00:29:37 So it's just like casual conversation, but I know I can get in and out without a lot of in-between chatting. So I like to stay on a time frame pretty much if I can and then get to work. Same, same. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one best-selling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Tell me about strength and how that has progressed for you and

Starting point is 00:30:18 what that has been like to go from, let's just say you were not strong when you started to strong? Honestly, it's a big deal for me. I feel in my life at 31, you kind of look at accomplishments that you're super proud of. And while there are definitely days in the gym, I get super frustrated. I look at where I started and just the intimidation level of literally laying on a bench with a barbell over me for a chest press and not being able to get it off of my chest to now I just hit 105. I will say my chest press as a female, that is my least favorite exercise. The one I dislike and struggle with the most. That's strong. That's strong though.

Starting point is 00:31:10 I mean, if a woman is bench pressing 135 to 155, that is like elite. That's okay. Maybe not elite in the sense of like, oh, an elite strength competitor, but as far as everyday gym going folk, people like us, maybe lifestyle bodybuilders, if you will, that is elite level

Starting point is 00:31:25 strength. That's fair. So anything over once you're in triple digits on the bench press, you, you are strong. Well, I appreciate that. That makes me feel a little bit pat on the back for my, my rough upper body today that I worked out. Um, my goal is to get to one 20. That's just been something that's been in my mind. I recognize that going into a lean bulk for the first time, that will be more achievable for me. But I am at the point with the cutting and I take diet breaks. I also take a deload every eight weeks. the point where until I start eating some more calories, it is, I've noticed that I've kind of plateaued. It's getting harder for me to, to push more weight. And that's becoming, um, when you start getting stuck and you're not progressing as much, I mean, it gets harder over time, but I'm at this place where I am super confident in my form. I'm confident. I know when something doesn't feel right. So maybe to back off the weight a little bit. And then the other thing I've learned through TLS is just to pay attention. And I know that

Starting point is 00:32:32 sounds so odd, but when you really are present in your lifts and you feel your body and you're paying attention to what you're lifting, it's easy to know if you can push harder or if maybe you should be stepping back. So when I first started TLS, it was, you know, you hit your top set at 10, you add 10 more pounds. Well, as my weight has declined and my strength has increased, it was one of those things where my squat was the first thing I recognized. Like when I would get over that 165 pounds and I'd add 10 pounds to the barbell, it would really affect my performance. And honestly, that's the first time I really tweaked my back. So I, right now, um, I got up to 185 with my squat, uh, for eight and then was working with that. And it was just my back always, it always didn't approve of that. So I tapered back a little bit. And now I, I actually decided until I hit my lean bulk to stay at 165 and just work in with that weight until I increased my calories. I just want to protect myself, be able to continue to lift.

Starting point is 00:34:07 But just knowing what you're capable of when you put in the time, it's really like anything. That's why people go to school. That's why people do research. The more time and effort you give something, the better the outcome generally will be. And my a little bicep that sticks out when my arm lays flat. And that's like a strength. That's like a strength image to me. So I find like super little things like that to be some of like the greatest outcomes of lifting weights. And that's just a perfect example of, again, how hard it is to actually get bulky as a woman. So you're, by objective standards, a very strong woman and how you characterize a little bicep that it's not what many women think coming into weightlifting for the first time, where, again, they just have this picture of Arnold's biceps implanted onto their arms. And I can't do biceps curls lest that happen.

Starting point is 00:34:53 And that's honestly a prime example. And I will say the bulkiness that women are fearful of, it's not that it's not possible, but it's not in the way that most of us and even like myself thought to, cause to be frank, had I kept my diet and my nutrition habits the same and started your program, I would look bulkier because I was over 200 pounds when this whole thing started. But when you, your nutrition is in line and you're actually carrying a healthy weight, that type of lean muscle doesn't do that. It's obviously like, you know, it's the opposite. I mean, my frame has shifted so much that I'm, I was just telling my boyfriend, even in the last year that my shirts

Starting point is 00:35:38 that I bought that I loved so much last year in the past year, I haven't lost a whole ton of weight, but my body has leaned out so much that that just doesn't fit the same. So that idea of bulking up and getting bigger, it's so far and few between if nutrition-wise, you're also committed to what your goals are. It's almost impossible for that to happen in my eyes. And I've been doing this for three years. So I would definitely say to any woman that is intimidated by that or thinks that way, it's just almost impossible, I think.

Starting point is 00:36:12 Yeah. And what you are alluding to, right, is body composition. And that's just a big part of my message, particularly to women. With guys, they have other obstacles, right? But they want to look quote unquote bulky, but with women, it's really, really making sure that women understand body composition and why we're looking at both lean muscle and body fat. And when you get the right mixture of both, that's the look that most women are going after. And that often does require more muscle gain than most women think. I'm sure in the beginning, I don't know if you were already thinking with that you were going to have to quote unquote gain a certain amount of weight to look the way you want to look. But I know speaking with many women over the years that that was a surprise to them later. Um, and if they were thinking with

Starting point is 00:37:12 that early on, that was also something that they were suspicious of. Like, wait, Mike, you're telling me that you want me to gain 15 to 20 pounds of, well, I don't care what it is of anything. to 20 pounds of, I don't care what it is of anything. And, and I'm going to, I'm going to look better. You want this scale to go up for me to look better. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is oil and water. And you're telling me these things are going to mix perfectly. I don't get it. But, but again, it's just the, fortunately many women understand the theory enough to give it a go and then experience it firsthand and that's i think what is is really key is that they just need to see it working in their body firsthand because reading about it and even agreeing with what i have to say is great for a frame of reference and great for intellectualizing

Starting point is 00:38:05 something, but it's very different to have the experience that now nobody can tell you now that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what you're doing. Nobody could tell you that, Oh, actually Mike is wrong about energy balance. That's a, that's an ancient relic. That's debunked. It's all just about hormones, you know, because you have experienced it firsthand. You now know what works, you know, what does not work. And, uh, you, you are inoculated now against all of the bullshit really. Yeah. And that is, I mean, that's certain because obviously that's where I started. It was one of those things where you hop online and you look how to lose weight and you'll get anything from eat 1200 calories a day or less to do four hours of cardio a day and everything in between and the keto diet and this and that. So it's one of those things for me that I honestly just needed something that was going to be cut and dry and TLS made that super direct for me. And on top of that,

Starting point is 00:39:08 I use all of your supplements. I take the multivitamin pulse and recharge are my best friends because early morning workouts still never get easier for some reason, or I just don't get more awake. One of the two. Yep. Yep. I understand that. But the other thing too is I'd like to just talk about your book, The Shredded Chef, because when you come from a place where you're super restricted and people tell you that dieting is hard and it's boring and it's lame and you can't eat what you want and you have to make all these sacrifices. I remember talking to Jeremy when I learned about Bigger Leaner Stronger, when I discovered TLS. And when people tell me what they were eating on that program, I was like, there is no way. I'm eating chicken and rice and broccoli.

Starting point is 00:39:55 Even though I really try to tell people in the book, I mean, you can do that if you want, but I really want to encourage you. Yeah, for sure. You know what's funny? Sorry to just, I don't want to encourage you. Yeah, for sure. You know what, funny, sorry to just, I don't want to hijack the conversation, but just a quick funny comment about that is many people who previously they would have said, oh, I could never do that. I could never eat one of those boring, bland bodybuilder diets. I've heard from many people who they've learned about energy balance and macron learned about energy balance and

Starting point is 00:40:25 macronutrient balance and all the, all the fundamentals, basically a flexible dieting. And so now they really understand how their metabolism works. Now they understand that there are no restrictions, uh, outside of what works well and does not work well, given your energy expenditure and your goals. Like there are smart ways of going about it and not so smart ways going about it. And so then they may initially even take it as far as like an if it fits your macros where they are not eating very many nutritious foods

Starting point is 00:40:58 and they are losing weight, eating a lot of junk food. And that's kind of cool. Then they get over that phase and then it's something a bit more reasonable. And then they find themselves later in the boring body builder, bland diet, simply because, because they're no longer restricted. They no longer feel compelled to really eat anything else. Food has just taken, uh, it's just not as important to them. And, and variety in their diet is just not as important to them as it once was because they now know that they can have any and all of that stuff

Starting point is 00:41:35 if they want to. But if they don't feel like putting time into making elaborate meals, they can also just eat the, the tilapia and asparagus and rice too. And you hit the nail on the head because I have been through all of those phases. How hard can I push this if it fits your macros and still lose weight? And then you get over that. And it was like, okay, I just seriously want a chicken breast tonight and I don't want anything else. And now, like last night, I made your Parmesan and crushed pork chops from the shredded chest. But that cookbook was my lifesaver. When I was trying to get over the anxiety of macros and how to break it down and how to have stuff that wasn't boring, but that was easy enough to make and didn't need 48 ingredients, that book was

Starting point is 00:42:23 the greatest thing ever for me. And I have a lot of go-tos out of that, but it makes a big difference. And a lot of the people that I refer over or that I train on a regular basis, I've either lent them mine or bought them one or sent them the Amazon link because seriously, it just makes that much of a difference. And sometimes just having somebody... And it was like your program, having somebody else lay it out for you takes away over half of the stress of doing, actually producing the work. So I love that book.

Starting point is 00:42:54 And I just thought I would say that because it's great. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. And I totally agree that that's been my goal since the beginning with Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger, The Shredded Chef, Beyond Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. My more prescriptive how-to books is to make them as paint-by-numbers as possible. And I've gone through several iterations of each of those books, next and new editions. I'm actually wrapping up a new fourth edition of Bigger, Leaner, Stronger and Thinner,

Starting point is 00:43:23 Leaner, Stronger. Both of those fourth editions will be out later this year. BLS is basically done. And then I have to go through and apply a lot of those changes to TLS. And there's some stuff that is going to be unique just to TLS and similar to how the book is right now, where the fundamentals are the fundamentals, but I'm trying to make it as specific to women as I possibly can. Every example, some, some, you know, some of the, some of the myths, some of the diet and training myths are more relevant to women than men and so forth. And, but it's from the beginning, it's always been with that goal that you just said is I just want people to have something

Starting point is 00:44:03 that lays it all out for them where they understand why I don't want, I don't want it to be a black box. I don't want people to just say, Oh, I don't really understand the underlying principles, but I'm just going to follow what Mike says, because he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I really want people to understand why and, and follow the underpinning of how all of this works, but then just give as much clear and workable prescriptive information as possible. Again, paint by numbers is kind of the analogy I like to keep in mind because when we're talking about all the stuff we've been

Starting point is 00:44:46 talking about on this podcast, that really is all that is needed. You do need to understand the fundamental principles. And then a lot of it is just here, do exactly this and you will get to your goal. Now, if you were taking somebody who, let's say, let's say it's actually somebody like you, and certainly within the next year or two, what you're going to find is you have gained most of the muscle and strength that is available to you. And if you were to tell me, okay, Mike, I want to, I want to, I want to, I really want to stretch for that final 20% of muscularity, or let's just say muscle definition to use a term that resonates more with women, that's still accurate and, and performance, then that's where a book like beyond bigger,

Starting point is 00:45:32 leaner, stronger, which I do plan on feminizing and creating a version of that book for women, which of course would be up beyond thinner, leaner, stronger with the program updated specifically for women and everything I can really, you know, make specific to women, I will do that. And so that would be then the next level of, okay, here are a few more things that you need to understand. And fortunately, it's actually just doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on the fundamentals, but there are some new principles that you should understand. And there some new principles that you should understand. And there's some additional information you should understand, um, in, in the context of

Starting point is 00:46:13 the fundamentals. And then there is the application of it. So that's a book beyond bigger than you're stronger that I would recommend you check out. And of course it's written toward men, but it's not exclusively for men. The principles do apply just as much to you as men. And then with the program, I would guess that it has more upper body work. Then you, you would probably want to shift some of that upper body to lower body. And, and that, that is pretty easily done. You, my guess is you, you would be able to do it just with what you've learned in the book. But if you need help, you could always email me.

Starting point is 00:46:49 And I think you would find that a fun new challenge. Because given your numbers and given everything you've told me, I think you're in a perfect place to increase the... It increases the difficulty a little bit, but it also increases the results. Like you're at a good place to be able to do that. Do you think that would be a great next step as far as my first lean bulk and then stepping into reprogramming that? Yeah. I think that would be great. Perfect. Again, you can always email me if you have any questions and I'm happy to help.

Starting point is 00:47:22 One other thing, just you had mentioned with, uh, I don't know if you've already done this, but you can, you can switch from a barbell back squat, for example, if that's, what's bothering your back a little bit to a front squat. If that's, uh, that's, that's a more back friendly squat, maybe for four, six, eight weeks, totally fine. Even longer if you need to, or,, or if your gym has a safety bar, that's also a very back friendly. It kind of performs like a front squat. If you don't know what a safety bar is, if you just search it, you'll see. And that's another option that is

Starting point is 00:47:56 very back friendly. And then the belt squat is another option. That's a machine. So it's not exactly the same, of course, as a, as a free weight exercise, but it is, it's a great, it's a great machine for a squat movement that puts no pressure on your back whatsoever. So I thought I'd also just share that because, because it may be helpful. All right. Perfect. Yeah. Well, uh, Tara, this was, this was a great discussion. I really appreciate it. Normally I, I wrap up with asking, where do you want to go from here? And I guess you've kind of answered that with lean bulking.

Starting point is 00:48:29 But are there any other, let's say in the next year, two, three years, any other milestones that you're working toward, whether they be performance related or physique related or some other aspect of your life that is impacted by your fitness? Yeah, I guess truly the lean bulk comes with wanting to put on, really to just get to that max potential as a female in my lean muscle mass. I know that the loose skin that I have that's left, which mainly is actually on my abdomen, a little bit on my arms, but that's,

Starting point is 00:49:09 I mean, that just comes from all of the weight that I lost and also how abruptly I lost it at first. So I'm hoping by stepping into a lean bulk and being diligent and then coming back into a cut over time that I'll have just a nice toned physique and not have that little bit of extra skin that's kind of hanging out. And that's kind of my next step for myself. Still working to get to that 120 on my bench press. And other than that, just to keep progressing, honestly, I find so much joy in going to the gym and personal relief too. It's a good stress relief for me in my daily life and I just love going. That's great. That's great. I love it. I love to hear it. Well, again, thanks for taking the time to do this and definitely stay

Starting point is 00:49:51 in touch. Let me know how it goes with your lean bulk. If you end up reading beyond your bigger leaner stronger, if you have any questions, let me know. But again, I think you're in a perfect place. I think that'd be the perfect program actually for your lean bulk, because what you'll find is going forward, you'll find it probably harder and harder to keep progressing with TLS primarily because of the volume. So with that program, you're looking at nine to 12 hard sets per major muscle group per week, maybe a little bit more for a couple, but that's generally where it's at. And that's intentional because that is plenty for people who are new to this and it allows for

Starting point is 00:50:26 a lot of progress, but eventually that is not enough volume to keep progressing. And that's one of the primary changes. There are a couple of other changes in the programming of the beyond approach, but the primary, I would say the most meaningful change is an increase in volume. So what you'll start doing is something around 14 to 16 hard sets per major muscle group per week. But you'll also do it. You'll do that in a way where you're going to be deloading more often. You're going to be periodizing your rep ranges. So that may sound like it's going to be too much and it's going to be too hard, but it's not, I can say it's not. I've done, I've been running this program now for a couple of years, but I've heard from many, many people who have read BBLS and they're doing great on the program. And I had a group of people doing it with me initially when I was working on it. challenging, probably similar to, you're probably going to feel similar to somewhere in your first

Starting point is 00:51:25 six to eight months of TLS where you're now comfortable, you're, you're comfortable, but you're challenged. You know, it's not easy. You're, you're working hard. And, um, anyway, so, so I would love to, I always like to hear from women in particular who tweak that program because that is a book that I plan on writing. And so the more feedback I have from women who have done this, the better when I get to it, you know? Perfect. Well, I will keep you posted. I think that's a great place for me to start. And glad I got to ask the producer of everything that question, because that's a pretty exciting for me. And I'm super excited for that next step in my fitness journey. So

Starting point is 00:52:05 I will definitely keep you posted. Okay. Awesome. Great. Well, thanks again for doing this. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Mike. It was nice to talk to you. Yeah. You too. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did subscribe to the show because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just

Starting point is 00:52:52 what your thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode and I hope to hear from you soon.

Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - How Tara Lost 80 Pounds With Thinner Leaner Stronger

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