Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - How to Win at the Inner Game of Fitness (feat. Noah Kagan...again!)

Episode Date: October 11, 2017

In this episode, I have another chat with my friend Noah Kagan on the psychology of getting and staying in shape. In case you didn’t catch the last episode, here’s a little primer on Noah: he was the 30th employee at Facebook and the Director of Marketing for Mint, and is the founder of Sumo.com and AppSumo.com, and he happens to be an all-around neat dude with interesting ideas about a lot of things. In this show, Noah and I talk about how to deal with some of the common psychological obstacles and difficulties that keep people from getting the body they really want, and we go all over the place, ranging from Noah’s experiences purposely gaining and losing 40 pounds to my thoughts on how to make training more fun and a lot more. Here’s a little sneak peek of what you’ll find in today’s episode: - How people talk themselves out of getting into shape. - How to immediately make your diet and training more enjoyable. - An easy way to motivate yourself to do new things. - How to use your behaviors to shape your attitudes (not the other way around). - And more… 4:05 - What is the psychology behind people who do and do not want to become fit? 8:40 - How can people adjust their mentality to make training fun? 19:03 - What personal experience triggered you to get into health & fitness? 34:03 - How can we create "free" workouts and what are the positive behavioral effects behind habit? 39:15 - What's the psychology behind how our behavior effects our belief Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hello there, this is Mike and welcome to another episode of the Muscle for Life podcast. And in this episode, I have another chat with my friend Noah Kagan on the psychology of getting and staying in shape. Now, in case you didn't catch the last episode, a little bit about Noah. on the psychology of getting and staying in shape. Now, in case you didn't catch the last episode, a little bit about Noah. He was the 30th employee at Facebook and the director of marketing for mint.com and is now the founder of sumo.com and app sumo.com. Those are his companies. And he also just happens to be an all-around neat dude with a lot of interesting stories to tell and interesting ideas about a lot of things. So in this show,

Noah and I are going to talk about how to deal with some of the common psychological obstacles and difficulties that keep people from getting the body they really want. And we go all over the place in this discussion, similar to the last discussion, ranging from Noah's experiences, purposely gaining and losing 40 pounds, to my thoughts on how to make training more fun and a lot more. Here's a little sneak peek of what you're going to find in today's episode, how people talk themselves out of getting into shape, how to immediately make your diet and training more enjoyable, an easy way to motivate yourself to do new things, how to use your behaviors to shape your attitudes and not the other way around, and much more. Now, before we dive into this episode, I have to shill for something to pay

the bills, right? No, I'm just kidding. I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and really believe in. So instead, I am going to just quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, this book has sold over 200,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of men and women get the bodies they really want, eating the types of food that they really love which is why it has over 700 reviews on amazon with a four and a half star average so if you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring bland quote-unquote body building diet

and if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle losing fat and getting healthy then you want to pick up the shredded chef today which you can find on all major online retailers like audible yes there are audiobook cookbooks it is a thing amazon itunes kobo and google play all right so that's it for the advertising let's get to the show play. All right. So that's it for the advertising. Let's get to the show. You know, a lot of people, they struggle with, um, I mean, maybe they don't enjoy being overweight, but they enjoy what keeps them overweight. You know what I mean? They, that the lifestyle is what they really enjoy, whether it's overeating, drinking too much alcohol, being lazy, not exercising, like that's what they're stuck in.

It's a little bit different if you have gotten yourself to a point where you are very much the opposite of that. You enjoy eating relatively well. You enjoy exercising. You enjoy – you know what I mean? Then you're like, I'm going to force myself to do something I fucking hate and I'm just going to gain as much weight as quickly as possible so i can get fat as shit and then get back to what i like think think about that for a second though you ever you have healthy friends like look dude you're drinking one of those like big jugs you see dudes at the gym drinking right now yeah and but but but it's not pink it's just water it's not pink dude you're just you're not doing your pre-workout post-workout bcas yeah but

what's interesting is like when you're healthy and you're like man being healthy is awesome and this is such a great life and then you talk talk, you know, I was with the Uber driver yesterday and literally the steering wheel couldn't get past his belly. Like I was like, really think we're going to crash because he was so fat that it was like rubbing. And you don't, you know, I don't, I think he would probably want to be healthy. Yeah. And then you're like, well, and I'm like, yo, this is, I'm having fun at this party. And I don't know, I guess I was just wondering, like the psychology of that guy about is it just easier to keep in that self, you know, self downward spiral, or maybe doesn't realize the benefits of how cool it is to actually feel healthy. Yeah, I mean, I can speak from I

myself have never been overweight, or at least unhealthy enough to feel unhealthy. I mean, I grew up playing sports and went from that into weightlifting and always, I never was really even into eating junk food and shit. It just wasn't my thing. So I can't really say I've personally been there, but in working with a lot of people, yeah, a lot of it is just not realizing they're kind of numb to how shitty their life really is. Let's make no bones about it. If your body is a pile of shit, your life is pretty shit too. It just is. It's so funny you say that.

I just met with this guy. He's like a manager of like very famous music artists. And he was telling me how they're putting on shows. They put on these massive shows with super famous people. And he said they only put on shows one in one month a year and i was like man aren't you isn't that really a lot of pressure aren't you nervous and he's like he's like he said this he's like i'm terrified i'm terrified because one month a year makes all of his money yeah and he said if it rains i'm screwed and i

was like well how have you dealt with it and he said you know there's actually one thing i did and i what do you mean he's like i just started being healthy i was like well how the fuck does that make a difference to your concert and he said well i can't control the concert the concert's either there's gonna be rain there's not gonna be rain i can do my best to make sure it's a great show regardless but i can control my health and i was like damn that's a pretty cool way of like i would have never like related that he's like well if my health is good everything else will generally all work out i was like yeah i like that that attitude. Yeah. I mean, I think there's probably deeper psychological implications there because even to that point of control, right? What can you be in control of and how much, what's the

balance between chaos and order in your life, right? So if there's too much chaos, then life becomes overwhelming, unconfrontable, and you probably feel very victimized. Too much chaos, then life becomes overwhelming, unconfrontable, and you probably feel very victimized. Too much order, it becomes stifling. Boring? Yeah, boring, probably to the point of almost tyrannical. So you have to have that balance. And so obviously, work is always a big part of all of our lives and that's livelihood and there are obviously great implications to like what's going to happen in our work sphere is going to influence everything positively or negatively. So if there's inherent, like I actually have a good example of that as a friend of mine. So it's very, very similar. He has a business, they fix dents in

cars, but they do that, they do it on a big scale. So they work with like Volkswagen and BMW and whatever. Right. So what will happen is they're over in Europe. Hail will come in and fuck up, you know, 3000 cars. And then BMW needs to get those cars fixed up so they can sell them. And they need to be fixed up perfectly. So they might pay, you know, two or 2000 euros per car or whatever to get them fixed. And so if there's a lot of hail, then my buddy, he makes a bunch of money. If, if there's not a lot of hail, then he doesn't make he doesn't make but he still has the infrastructure. He still has to pay. He still has a payroll and he has overhead that needs to be covered. So it's similar. We're like, you know, I'll be talking to him and he's just like, I'm waiting for hail, man, waiting for hail. Hopefully it comes. But so he has also similarly found that the healthy living routine of not just exercise,

but it's like exercise, eating well, getting enough sleep, not drinking too much alcohol, not smoking, all that shit has given him more. I would say it just has helped him better deal with the stresses that he faces in his business. You know, last time we talked, you said something that's really stuck with me and that was and and i've changed how i've worked out and and live because of it which was there's a difference between training and working out right training is towards something and working out is just to work out and i think with my mentality it's definitely a lot of my my workout has been an evolution just health has been an evolution and what i've noticed is that my the thing i keep coming back to is like,

what's my goal? How am I doing things that are sustainable? Because I think so many people with health are like, yeah, man, I'm like crazy this week. And then two weeks later, they're, yes, you know, whatever it is, back to the routine. And ultimately, for myself, especially lately, I'm thinking, how can I make it fun?

Like when we were all children, it was fun. Like you didn't call it cardio. You just called it playing. Yeah. And I think the more that we can get back to that type of mentality and just encouraging it from a fun aspect versus I think it's almost sometimes like a punishment, like, oh, I have to go do this thing. It's like, nah, bitch, just go make it fun for yourself. Totally. No, I agree. I think there's a lot to be said for enjoyment because of how much it affects compliance. Right. No, I agree. I think, uh, there's a lot to be said for enjoyment, um, because of how much it affects compliance, right? So that's on the, that's on the, that's interesting. That's on the diet side and on the, on the training and exercise side. So, um, you know, people say the best diet is the one you can stick to. And I think there's a lot of truth there. Like

sure. I mean, we do need to, there are boundaries in terms of like what is going to work just biologically speaking and what's not. You have to pay attention to certain things, energy balance, macronutrient balance, but you have also a lot of wiggle room. So for some people, that might be, let's say it's a keto type of diet. Is that optimal for gaining muscle and strength? No, but some people like it. They like it more than having a higher carb diet, which is better for gaining muscle and strength. So I've had this discussion with people.

They'll email me and they'll almost feel guilty because they know something is not optimal from the perspective of body composition, but they like it. And I'll explain, like, no, you should reframe that. If that's what you like, then it's not that you can't get a great body on eating a keto diet. Sure. I mean, if somebody were to say they only want to eat 10 grams of protein a day, then I'd have to say, well, you kind of got to choose then one or the other. You're not going to really gain much muscle or you're not going to go very far on 10 grams protein a day. But if they are willing to pay attention to their calories, make sure they get enough protein. Okay.

So yeah, not eating a lot of carbs, not the best for gaining muscle, but if you enjoy it, then this is something you can stick to for a long period of time. That's going to be better. And it's also just going to be better for you psychologically than forcing, like you're saying, forcing yourself to do something every day that you don't look forward to. So the same thing applies to exercise. Um, you know, I take weightlifting. Some people, they don't, they just don't enjoy it. They don't enjoy going into the gym and lifting weights and that's totally fine. There are other options. You could have a simple gym. You could have a simple gym at home if, if, if, if it's more of the gym environment that you don't like, or if it's really weightlifting, you don't like, maybe you want to do some calisthenics,

maybe it's body weight stuff. Or maybe it's a twist on weightlifting. Maybe it's like a CrossFit where you like the group environment. And that's, that's more fun. Or if you're not so concerned with like, muscle or whatever, getting into spinning or getting into just, again, finding something that you enjoy that you are looking forward to. And, of course, that's not always going to be the case. Some days, you know, for whatever reason, we don't really want to do anything that we know we should do or that, you know, that we normally enjoy doing. And that's when you have to obviously apply a little bit of just self-discipline and just do it. And then it's one of those things I've found that like, sometimes I don't enjoy working out. I don't, um, it's just not a, not a good workout. Maybe I didn't sleep enough,

just not into it, but I always enjoy having worked out. So that that'll, I just remember that, you know what I mean? Like when I'm done, then I'm, then I feel good physically. Like I'm glad I did it. And so sometimes that's just what it takes when I'm you know hey I would rather not go to the gym this morning but I know when I'm done I'm gonna feel good about it so I'm gonna go do it you know yeah I as I was telling you earlier I really like trying to do workout meetings so either a jog or a friend was like hey you want to hang out let's let's have coffee I'm like dude let's just go for a walk or do you have a bicycle I've even done it where uh not a spin class but like I have the stationary bikes in my gym and I was like, let's just go for a walk. Or do you have a bicycle? I've even done it where, not a spin class, but like I have the stationary bikes in my gym. And I was like, hey, let's just talk there.

And you kind of get this two for one experience. Which just makes it more enjoyable for you, right? Yeah. And I think there's a balance. Because one of the things, and you say this and your messages are great. And I love the way you explain everything on your site. But one of the things I think people have to remember is that whenever I whenever you talk to someone or whenever I've talked to someone recently, that was like a few days ago and I was

talking to him and he's like, man, yeah, I need to get a little bit of weight. I got to get back to the gym. And I was like, dude, you don't have to be at the gym. It's because you fucking eat like shit. Yeah. But that it's so easy. I think we're trained because we're like, I got to be the gym. It's like the gym is the hard part. The easy part is just don't put that shit in your mouth. Like, hey, don't. And that's the hard thing is you have to decide, do I want this reward later or do I want just the pleasure instantly now? Totally. And even for myself, I'm trying to figure that out. Like I change having like lately I'm not having breakfast and I have noticed, though, and I think you just have to kind of be self-aware what's working, you helping you get to your goal.

So lately I'm not doing breakfast and I'm noticing though at night I'm like overcompensating with food. Yeah. Because I'm not doing breakfast or lunch. I'm like, oh yeah, I didn't have breakfast. I can double on this and dinner. I'm like, yeah, put that guac on it. There's, I mean, there's, there's research on that, that, um, I mean, this isn't something

to take as dogma, but I would just say that what you can take from the research is some people do better with breakfast, basically. Like some people are, are their overall caloric intake tends to be lower if they eat a breakfast. So you might be one of those types of people. And it's not, it's not a, it's not a judgment of right or wrong or good or bad. It's just, that's it. It's just some people find that they do exactly that. If they're, if they skip breakfast, they're more likely to just eat more or even just be hungry. Even if you're going to really like put the screws to yourself, it's still kind of annoying if it ramps up your hunger later in the day. No, and I think that's a really good point where it's just like it's figuring out what works for you. Because some people, it's like, hey, I can eat like shit all weekends weekends but the weekdays are my great i'll be very strict yeah or you know because for me i even noticed it with

alcohol is probably my biggest uh weakness in terms of diet and i've experimented with it so sometimes i'm like all right don't drink during the week but then my weekends are ballistic i'm like friday saturday sunday there's not binge drinking but it's like i will have more drinks yeah and so then i'm like well during let me try drinking during the week so maybe during the week i have like a glass of wine at night or every other night uh and it you know honestly parts of it is also just like times of the year or times of my life sure and so i think part of it is also not being so fucking hard on ourselves like hey it's okay you're sometimes i think when we're healthy and you get this like six pack or you get this great body and sometimes i look around for like an award i'm like hey i got this really nice body who's here to look at it yeah well that's why that's

why that's why your standard like meathead bros wear the fucking shirts that are five sizes too small and like the you know the tight uh joggers and stuff to chest look at me look at me look at me look at my biceps look at my chest chest. Yeah, and I do it too, because I, well, I don't have that. Hey, I like to get attention to something. We all do that. That's human nature. It's just some people are more into it than others.

Well, I think part of that is just ultimately enjoying it yourself. Like doing the exercises, finding the routine. Like for me, my routine is really, right now it is total, dude, it's 100% different than when it was five years ago. But it like try to bike as much as possible so i aim for certain like 40 miles a week and then just get to the gym three times a week and on at this point now man i

don't know you're obviously a different level of discipline and like it's your profession right for me i just want to i want to look good yep and so if i just want to feel good right you want to have energy and yeah well you know what's funny is two years ago so yeah i just want to feel good right you want to have that energy and yeah well you know what's funny is two years ago so yeah i just want to be in the gym three times a week and at the gym i have different sections i try to do one is a circuit one is legs one is chest but more or less as long as i get there i'm happy yeah but what was fascinating is like three years ago i did this challenge where i was 160 i think i told you this i try to get to 200 and then i wanted to cut back down to 160 with with abs yeah and i'll

tell you man if anyone's like oh what's it like to be fat like gain a 40 pounds which is what i did in three months and it honestly was miserable like my girl my girlfriend would have sex at the time and it'd be like rubbing up all my rolls it'd be like she'd be like she'd be like surfing to find my penis and which is not it's not like it doesn't feel good for anybody. And you're also, you are more tired. And like getting out of bed, I'm like trying to roll all this fucking weight out. And it was an experience. And then I cut back down really hardcore.

And you know, sometimes you have to experience what it's like on the other side. Like do a 180. And you're like, actually this doesn't feel that fucking great. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the furthest I've pushed that is, so I weigh like 192 or 193. My weight has always been this it doesn't feel that fucking great yeah yeah i mean the furthest the furthest i've i've pushed that is uh so i weigh like 192 or 193 my weight has always been strangely low hon you wait how tall are you six one and a half six two you're one i don't know i guess i would

have thought you've been lighter to be honest people guess me heavier like uh i mean because i'm because i'm i'm pretty lean i'm not I mean I'm as lean as I can comfortably maintain, you know, not having drugs that would allow me to maintain a much lower level of body fat. Maybe I'm around 8%, 9% or so. But, you know, now just given – I don't know. Given my size, like there's a guy that works with me who I'm a bit bigger than. Like if we took measurements, I'd have him – you know, he has, no, I mean, he would be even my legs. Like I train legs. My legs are not small.

I think they're pretty in proportion to my upper body. And he's like 205 and I'm a bit bigger than him. So my, like when I was at Universal Studios in Florida, there was a person at one of the like booths. It wasn't one of those weight guessing booths, but she used to run the weight. She used to run the weight guessing booth. And at that time, I was like one 83. I was, I was a bit smaller and I was very lean. Um, cause I just recently cut for like a photo shoot. Right. And so, uh, so I was like, my weight is always, people always guess me about 10 or 15 pounds, uh, heavier than I am. So when,

when to the, with the weight guessing, you know, where if she guesses you, if she, if she was off by whatever, like five or 10 pounds, you win some prize or something. And she guessed me at, I was like 183 and she guessed like 198. So even the professionals can't get me. But so I got up to like 205 and where like I would feel kind of my stomach fat with the seatbelt and shit. So I have experienced, I have a little bit of personal experience of that where I know how it is where you start getting uncomfortable. You're just like, I'm just too big. It's fucking annoying to move.

And so I could imagine if I were to get up to, you know, for me, it'd probably be like if I got up to 215 and just put on a bunch of fat, I would be very uncomfortable. Yeah, it's interesting with health. How did you get into, because like, if I remember correctly, your real entrance into this world of just, you know, trying to exercise more regularly, take care of your body, it came after a breakup, do I remember that correctly or no? Yeah, yeah, man, it's been a bit since we chatted,

but it started about five and a half years ago. I was on a bike ride, It's called The Worst Ride. And you ride 30 miles to this beer festival, and you just get drunk and eat sausages. And the night before, I was partying and playing beer pong, whatever the fuck, and went out with a girl. My girlfriend and I did it the next morning. And I've done this ride two years before without a problem. And we're on the ride, and there was like 20-mile-an-hour headwinds. And also, I was out of shape and during the ride she's like you're lazy you're disgusting i can't believe you're like you went out last night and i mean she just wouldn't stop with it and i

almost was this was this uh was this uh a recurring was this like a motif of the relationship they just kind of just came out of nowhere no we were on the rocks i would say i don't think that was the final thing but during the ride i tried to quit the the sag wagon to pick us up took too long so i was like you know screw it i'm just gonna go for it and at the like halfway through i was like all right we've just got to break up this is like i don't i can't deal with this and so at the long story short the next day though so we break up and the next day i wake up and i was like you know what? She was right. I was like, she was actually, you know, I'm out of shape.

I'm not. And if you look at the photos, you're like, wow. So I think there's a lot of things I've learned that are very helpful. But one of them is like, take photos of yourself. Because it's really nice to see the progress. I think progress is one of the sweetest things in life. Totally. Progress is happiness.

And so you want to see your progress. So take some photos of yourself. Use the scale every few weeks if that is your progress measurement. But yeah, I think the thing that I'm happy with that is I worked with my friend Adam from mybodytutor.com. He's one of my best friends. And we just started really simple.

I think that's probably part of it, Mike. And you've taught a lot of people and helped a lot of people is that they do everything all at once. Right. And that works for some people. I mean, I found that it probably part of it, Mike, and you've taught a lot of people and helped a lot of people is that they like do everything all at once. Right. And that works for some people. I mean, I found that it can go either way. Some people actually seem to do better that way because like half measures make them or what they feel is kind of a half measure makes them more likely to just revert back to their previous ways. likely to just revert back to their previous ways. But it's been kind of interesting to see where there are many people that respond better

to what you're talking about and it seems it worked better for you and then some people that doesn't work very well for. Yeah, I mean to each their own. I'm not trying to say my way is the best. I'm only saying what I experienced. So I just started really simply. I literally only just started focusing on food. And it like cutting out certain like uh drinking less like having less sugar or something exactly it was literally like all right let's have a good breakfast egg white

like egg whites and blueberries or egg whites and some vegetables or egg whites and some protein and it was started with that and then it was like then we slowly were like all right well what do you want to do for lunch and dinner and then what are you trying to do for the weekend and i think one of the things that adam was really good about with me, he's that he held me accountable. So he would check in with me all fucking time like a Jewish mother, super annoying. And the other thing that helped me was kind of planning what I was going to

eat ahead of it. Like, I don't know if you've, have you read the book Mindless Eating? Yeah. That is one of. Brian was something. Was an easy hacker. I love that book because there's so many damn diet books out there if you go to Amazon right now

one of the top 100 books will be some health there's another health one the next fucking cure every quarter the marketing blitz for the next they're looking for the next paleo what's going to for the next Paleo.

What's going to be the next meteoric success that can become an intellectual property and spin off all kinds of other things? Fully. And they're looking for the next out. They're looking for the next hack. And in reality, health is not a hack. Oh, yeah. I mean, from a marketing perspective.

That's what the publishers are hoping. What's going to be the next thing? What's going to be, they're hoping. Like what's going to be the next thing? What's going to be the next South Beach? What's going to be the next Atkins? When in reality, it's very simple, but we don't want to listen to that. And so, yeah, for myself, it was start simple, have accountability, start planning my meals. So not meal prep, like hardcore stuff, but it was like, hey, you're going to... So if I was going out at night, I said, how many drinks am I going to have?

And committing to it. And say, I'm going to have two drinks. I mean, there's research that shows that that alone makes you more likely to stick. Like that works with yourself and works with others. So it works in the other way around too. So if you want, like, I mean, let's say you have an employee and you want to make sure that something gets done, just getting a verbal commitment from them that it's going to get done greatly increases the chances that it's going to get done. So you can use that with yourself too. If you are internally committing to yourself, thinking about it like that, saying, I'm going to, okay, how many drinks am I going to have? I'm going to have X number. You are more likely to stick to

that, uh, than, and, and, and let's say it's, let's say it's four drinks or whatever. So you're more likely to have, like, if you were to play that out over time, your average alcohol intake would be lower, uh, in, uh, be lower under those conditions than if you were just to go and wing it. No, and I think that's very much the case with a lot of people. Oh, yeah, I'll just figure this out. And I think that's actually a great point you just made, Mike, where if you wanted to get to –

so I always use maps because it's a very easy analogy, but if you wanted to go somewhere, like let's say you want to go to Disneyland with your new kid, you're not going to just start driving and hope. You're like, well, I know it's in Florida, Disney World. Let me just go south and I'll hopefully fucking get there. Someone else should have put some signs. They figured it out for me.

Yeah, there's these roads. If I just go to the gym, if I just probably eat the stuff. So I think there's this balance where you need to have somewhat of a plan. You need to have a destination, your goal. You need to have somewhat of a plan. And I think my friend said it very well my friend taylor uh you wrote a book called end of jobs which i recommend and what he said was like you got to basically plan with goals but you've got to build with habits because a lot of times what i've noticed is i hit this goal i talked to someone recently who said the same thing with their health they're like man i wanted to get to

190 i got to 190 and now i'm back at 200. And I was like, oh, what happened there? It's because they planned, they got their goal and it was over. And so I definitely think there's some consideration that people have to be like, all right, well, I'm going to plan it and I'm going to have a goal. But it's also just as important that like every, like for me, I don't really as much now have a hardcore like goal, but I've built these habits where like three days a week I'm in the gym, three to five days a week I'm biking. And then my goal right now is maintain at least the, the, the physic physique that I have. Yeah. But it's evolved over time. So yeah. So I started, I mean, that's a, it's a goal. It's an amorphous goal, but it's still a goal. It's in, and I'm,

I'm in the same place where I'm not working toward a very specific quantifiable goal in terms of if we're talking about just in, in training, um, because I'm pretty happy with where my body's at right now. And as long as I am slightly improving over time, then that's kind of my goal. And so those are very slight improvements though. I'm not going to, I don't have it in me, um, genetically to gain all that much more muscle, even if I tried to do everything I could, uh, naturally, you know, maybe if I were to work really hard at it, maybe five to maybe 10 pounds, but it'd probably take four years, three or four years of, um, it mainly would be, uh, I'd have to change

a bit in my training and also change a bit in my diet. So, but similarly, um, I'm happy with my body. It, uh, I don't have any injuries and that, that matters to me as well. So, you know, I enjoy, I enjoy the workouts that I'm doing and if I can improve, uh, certain areas of my body, you know, slowly over time, that's kind of the game. Um, but you know, for me, I don't know how it is for you. I think there's a deeper, for me, I don't know how it is for you. I think there's a deeper, for me, it's also about, I have, I guess you could say living up to, it's kind of more about being the type of person that I want to be and living up to my standards, so to speak. And so like, I want to be the type of person that has the self-discipline to exercise regularly and that cares enough about their health and their long-term health to put in the time and the effort to get there, even when it's

uncomfortable or when it's difficult. And, you know, I like that mindset. I mean, that's whatever. I've just kind of, I've maybe just picked it up from like, that's big in the seven habits of effective, highly effective people, the Covey book. That's a big thing, big takeaway that I personally I really liked from that book is living by principles. And even Elon Musk has spoken about that, like living life by first principles as opposed to living by analogy where you just kind of living by analogy is just looking around. What is everybody else doing? where you just kind of living by analogy is just looking around, what is everybody else doing? I guess I'll just do that, as opposed to really thinking about what are your values and, and what really matters to you? And how do you not how do you live your life in accordance with that?

And that might be very different than what everybody else is doing. And, you know, maybe not, but the point is, you have to really figure it out for yourself. Yeah. I mean, you have to decide what you really want. And then what happens is things change. One of my things I've thought about is I think now when we change our minds or we have new goals and you obviously don't want to change them every single day, but we have a lot of guilt or like, oh, I can't change my mind. I'm like, bitch, I don't wear the same clothes from elementary school. Yeah. Like things change. elementary school. Yeah. Like things change. Hey, quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing

or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth. So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, please do tell them about it. It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say thank you. You can find me on Instagram at Muscle for Life Fitness, Twitter at Muscle for Life, and Facebook at Muscle for Life Fitness. You know, my evolution with all the health is like first year was really just food. Second year was just like a cardio where I looked like an anorexic girl or anorexic guy where I was just like skin and bones.

I was running all the time because I committed to running three days a week. And I like some for me. I don't think I'm a simple man. Maybe you can ask my girlfriend if that's true. But I like simple rules. So I run three days a week and it's just so damn simple to follow. I like it. And so I was running three days a week. And then, you know, I got super skinny and my friend was like, you should try working out. You don't actually have to run as much and you'll lose weight and you get bigger arms. So you look aesthetically better. And I go to the gym, man. And I don't know about you,

but I definitely have a few friends that work out this way. I worked out by numbers. It was like, all right, do five of these. And I was like, one, two, three, four, five. Oh, this sucks. Hopefully, it's over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I did that for the next year. And what was crazy is I did it because I committed to doing it for a year.

And at the end of the year, I had this little baby apple, like a crab apple in my arm. And I was like, I can't believe this shit's working. Like the stuff that I read on your blog and like, you know, just going. And that's when I stopped working out by numbers. And it's not to say I don't do reps and counts, but what most people do is they're like, well, I'm going to go do three sets and eight counts. And I was like, at eight, I'd still have energy left. You know, and it's like, dude, we'll do more. And I'm like, oh, I could do more. Yeah. Yeah. It's like dude we'll do more and I'm like oh I could do more yeah yeah I mean that and that's ultimately any any sort of progression scheme the purpose is to just make you work harder over time so it's just with

when you're following a progression scheme if it's well designed that's all it actually is accomplishing is it's just making sure that you are pushing yourself to work harder over time and then backing off, right? So it's like you have that, it's an undulating pattern that is on an upward trajectory. And so that's also one of the reasons why, I mean, for speaking about weightlifting as an intermediate and advanced weightlifter, it gets harder and harder to build muscle. I mean, there are just basic genetic physiological limits, but also you have to work your fucking ass off. Like you have to work a lot harder. If you've been in, if you've put in five years of good,

high quality work, um, you know, in the gym weightlifting, uh, you have to work a lot harder to gain a lot less muscle than you did in your first year. And so, and that's just, uh, that's just reality. So, you know, what's funny about that though, man, like when I'm, I was traveling, I was in Israel and I was traveling to France and for a week in France, it didn't work out. And I had guilt. But what's interesting is that your body is kind of like a bank account where if you build balance of you've worked out for the past five years, which I have, then your body's like, dude, it's okay.

Like I'm not, I'm going to go away a little bit slower, but I still got you. Totally. You just get right back the next week. Totally. And, um, but I think that that's, that's though, uh, I think that's a good analogy for, for really anything in life, right? So if you get your relationship with your girlfriend, if you're in a place where it's really good, it's in a really good state, really good condition, it's in good order, not too much chaos, right? Then, and if you have a bad week, then it's not like it brings the whole house of cards down. Or even if you had a week where, let's say, let's say you didn't, you didn't speak for a week because you were out of town or whatever. And, and, but if you, if you put yourself into a much into, if now,

if you're in a relationship, that's a lot worse worse it's already in a bad state that might be you might go for a bike ride and that might be the end of it you know what i mean yeah i i don't sometimes i think it's like it's okay to have a drink it's okay to have a cookie i think about that a lot where all right if i didn't have this piece of pizza and i get hit by a car outside how would i really feel because you and sometimes sometimes it's totally worth it. And other times it's like, no, dude, you're probably going to have another cookie later today or next week and make it more of a reward than just something that becomes a commonality.

And so finishing the evolution where I'm at this year is that I had a moment last year where I was in the gym and I looked around and I felt like I was in a prison jail yard with all these like big bald dudes grunting in tank tops and sweaty I'm like and I'm like and I'm spending four days a week five days a week in the gym I'm like what the fuck am I doing with my time what am I doing with my life like I don't want to look back and have a great body and all that stuff if I'm not really like I don't really want that I want a nice I want a nice physique but I also want to balance that with like being the hell outside yeah and so this year has

been where I'm doing now next year you know if we talk when we talk again it'll probably be different yeah um but this year it's been more how do I do like high intensity shorter workouts you know people do an hour and a half workout and I don't there's nothing wrong with it there's times that was actually great but for me I actually prefer to work alone now. I want to go in. I'm going to do two sets of three rounds, so a circuit of three things really fast. That's three times. Then I'll do two of that, so six total exercises generally around a certain physique, certain body parts.

And that works for me right now. And I'm liking it because it's like 30 minutes or less. And the rest of the week, I just hit the bike because it's fun for me. in it because it's like 30 minutes or less and the rest of the week i just hit the bike because it's fun for me yeah and i think one thing that i can recommend for other people and i like this is how do you make stupid habits so what a stupid habit is is that when i bike or like at night you can ask my girlfriend who's sitting nearby every night what do i do lee before i go to sleep i do push-ups every night before i go to sleep like if i'm drunk i do push-ups if i'm sober i push-ups if i'm traveling i do push-ups and i don't go to sleep. If I'm drunk, I do push-ups. If I'm sober, I'm having push-ups. If I'm traveling, I do push-ups.

And I don't do a lot. I just do 30. Sometimes 25, sometimes 35. I have weird superstitions. But the point being is make stupid ones where you get these, I call them free calories or freebies. Another one. These are actually weird. I never thought about this.

If I'm ever at the airport or traveling and there's stairs or an escalator i do the same thing i fucking never do the escalator and i say i race against people so it did suck though we were traveling as i said in france unless i have like too much fucking luggage then i have no choice no no you still gotta do this here so we were traveling in france all right i'm trying to be a gentleman carrying my lady's bag and my bag. And then the stairs, it was just these stairs. I was like, oh, man, this is going to heaven. And you take the fucking stairs. And so shit like that, the stupid ones, it adds up. If I do 30 push-ups a night, that's 10,000.

10,000 away. Is that really that many? 10,000 at the end of the year. Wow. That's pretty cool. I didn't realize it was that many. And I don't even have to think. They're free.

So create more free workouts in your life. Yeah. And you know, I think there's something to be said for, um, how I think stuff like that can actually have, can, can change you in, or can have more profound effects on you, uh, psychologically and emotionally than you might realize because, you know, many many people I think most people think that like you first they struggle with with chain trying to change their attitudes and their beliefs and their ideas and and they they think that like if they could just change their mind if they can just get into the right state of mind then the behaviors would naturally follow right and I mean even from a marketing marketing perspective, I think it's much smarter to try to change people's behaviors than it is to change their minds. It's very hard to get people

to change their minds. It's much easier to get people to change how they behave. So if we're talking marketing, especially merchandising, right, you can play with price, you can play with product placement, you can play with packaging, you can play with product placement. You can play with packaging. You can do things that would make someone who's a diet – they – from a psychological perspective, let's say they will buy Cheerios. They just – they've been doing it for a long time. It's ingrained. As far as breakfast cereals go, Cheerios are at the top of that ladder. I think it's much easier to get somebody through changing circumstances, like what I just mentioned, to get them to try something else than it is to try to market to them and change their mind about Cheerios to get them to try to change Applejacks. It'd be easier if the grocery store were to put Applejacks maybe at the beginning of the aisle,

or if they were to run a promotion on Applejacks, that's a much easier way to get someone to try your Apple Jacks than it is to try to come up with a super clever campaign to change their minds. And so I think that that also applies, though, to to just any area of our lives. So just the fact of changing a behavior like that, adding something simple, I'm just going to push ups every night. Well, that I, you know, just because of the simple principles of cognitive dissonance, right? So when our when our behaviors don't match our, you know, our beliefs, we're much more likely to just change, get our conform our beliefs to our behaviors than we are to change our behaviors. So you know, by just doing push ups every night, you start to become,

it's going to influence you psychologically to some degree. You might not even realize it, but that is going to make you, I think, more likely to do other similar types of behaviors. And by adding more and more and by changing more and more actions over time, you become a completely different person without even thinking so much about, you know, how you feel about any of it. And so I think that's also why there's, there is value in, you know, like you were saying with habits, where by keeping your habits in place, I think that's a much more and just in just doing the actions that the type of person that you know, you want to be does is a much more effective way to keep your um your mind in the right place than it is to let's say you let the actions fall out and then you're

trying to wrestle with feelings of guilt or you're trying to wrestle with your with your attitudes is much harder to do yeah exactly man i don't know if I explained that well, but basically, your point is, what I'm trying to say is, it's easier, if you can just get change actions, if you can just, even if it's little, start small, and get yourself doing things, regardless of how you feel about it, don't really think about really anything, just start doing things. And, and, and slowly slowly if Whatever it would you know? It can be some people again our community can take on more but the more you change your behaviors the more your mind and Or the mental side naturally changes to agree basically hon

so what's the psychology that you're that you understand around it just a Well, I mean that's the I mean that's it, I mean, that's it. I had read about it. Where did I read about this? It was, it might've been a book called peak performance. I believe it was, no, no, it was the seven. It's called the seven secrets of persuasion. That's what it's called. Um, and it, the first half of the book was kind of meh, but the second half was, was actually quite good. And, uh, it was the, I forget that I forget the author's name, but he was, he was talking about this and, and, and just talking about the relevant psychological research. And again, it's something that stuck with me because I think that's very true. Again, that it's it, if you can get someone to just change,

start changing their behaviors, like, okay, so, you know, go back to in the beginning of your, of your journey where you weren't, you weren't eating well, drinking, so, you know, go back to in the beginning of your, of your journey, where you weren't, you weren't eating well, drinking too much, not exercising. Where do you start? Do you start with sitting you down on a couch and, you know, trying to dive into psychotherapy and trying to sort out really, I mean, you know, sort out internally, why, why do you do these things? What are you struggling with? Or do you, do you have some sort of, you know, is it a repression of some kind of, we need to go back to your childhood? Is it, is it, uh, is it Freudian in nature? Is it Jungian in nature? Who the fuck knows? Right. So you can do

that or you can just go, all right, let's just like start eating a good breakfast. Let's just start there. Let's, let's change a behavior that, that represents something as well. Right. So it's a behavior in a certain direction that also has a symbolic meaning of sorts and it indicates to you, right, that like you're now starting to change, you've shifted the rudder at least a little bit, right? And then, so, okay, you've done that. And the question is, do you really need to at any point really give all that much attention to the internal resistance that you are running into?

Like how much do you really need to try to analyze that, deconstruct it, overcome it versus going in the other direction, which is just change more behaviors? All right. So we have the we have the the breakfast behavior pretty well established. That's going well. Yeah. Now let's out, let's add the lunch behavior. All right. Let's change that behavior. Okay. And then what now then dinner. And then, so eventually, you know, six months of, of really just behavior therapy in a sense, uh, you'll find that I think that that just will do a lot more and that will sort out a lot more of the, of the psychological stuff. It'll sort it out a lot more effectively than you. I think you could sit trying to address the psychological without changing behaviors, probably indefinitely, uh, or, or waiting for the inspiration, you know what I mean? Or waiting for just like having, having to, where you don't feel, uh, like you need to eat that junk food

anymore. You don't feel, uh, you know, we're, we're, we're feeling like you really want to get into working out. And, and, and, and I, again, I've, I've spoken with a lot of people that get lost in that type of thing where I just think that they are, again, waiting for too much of a some sort of revelatory, you know, experience as opposed to just let's just start changing something. Let's just start with breakfast. Good example. You know what I mean?

And who cares about how you feel? Who cares? I know like you have all we're all fucked up. We all have, you know, neuroses and varying degrees of mental illness. That's fine. But let's just start doing this over here. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's a great point.

It is interesting because you see someone who's at your level of it where your level of discipline and follow through around all the health things is just on another level. And for me, I have to remind myself sometimes like that started somewhere though. Right. Like you started, you know, many years ago doing that, building up these routines, building up these habits. And I think what's really great about what you're saying, and I totally, I'm buying it, I buy into it, is that make it just part of your life. The easier that you're just like, hey, this is part of my life. Like I know I like, and you know that it generally makes your life better. So that's why it makes it easy for you to continue that yeah yeah absolutely and

i think also i mean i don't know if this is something i guess it's probably uh a a trait that is at least strengthened by by sticking to some sort of fitness routine is being able to commit to something even if it's something small and knowing that you're either going to, the only way that it doesn't happen is you're fucking dead. Like basically I'm going to do that or I'm going to, or I'm dead. That's the only way that that doesn't happen. And being able to get into that mindset where there's no thought as to, uh, you're not leaving yourself any outs. You know, there are no maybes in, in, in your decisions for you personally. Uh, again, unless, uh, if the, if the sun blows up, then I

won't be in the gym tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Um, but I will Saturday, I don't go to the gym, but you know what I'm saying? It's the Sabbath, bro. Of course you don't go to the gym. So one thing I would say that you got me reflecting on, Mike, is that like during this journey, one thing that's been helpful for me is I've been around other people who are doing it. Sure. And it makes it so much easier. Like drugs, for instance. I don't do drugs.

But if I'm around people who do drugs, I'm like, you know what? I kind of like drugs. And so it's the same thing with health. That's a really bad analogy. I hope my mom never listens to this. But the same thing is with health. Like one of my best friends, JR, that was like our hangout time. It still is.

It's like, yo, you want to gym? Monday? Yep, let's do it. Hey, you want to go get a healthy chicken asparagus dinner? Yeah, yeah, I want to have sticky pee. And so that made it the whole – and my buddy Adam, as I mentioned earlier, like that kind of support group. And I created a Facebook group even called uh, called healthy, sexy motherfuckers. And it's literally like 30 of us and it's not paid. It's not a membership. It's nothing. It's just, we just post our workouts,

like either selfies like in this morning. So I told you I did that spin class meeting and it's just kind of a stupid thing, but like having groups of people around, like, can you see my photo? Yeah. you take the selfie yeah so anyways like having like the people around me also on that positive health kick made it way easier to kind of go for it absolutely i mean that's my my fitness pal found that um i read a book called the the transformational consumer and uh it was written by a lady who was i don't think she was their like director of marketing but she worked in their marketing. She may have been actually anyways. Uh, she shared some stats in there that like people that, um, connected with others using the social features in my fitness pal were far more, I don't remember

the exact numbers, but we're far more successful in their weight loss attempts. And as, as well as I think it was people that were sharing the results with, you know, they had friends that they were sharing the results with. Ah, I love that. Yeah. I really like that. That's great. Yeah.

It kind of validates what I'm already thinking. I'm like, dude, I don't think. No, no. I mean, it makes sense, of course. I mean, it's also whatever. That's like one of those cliches, right? You're the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. And I think there's definitely truth in that. And that extends, I think, to, to probably

all areas of life, it probably affects your, your views on pretty much everything. And then also your, you know, behaviors. And I, and again, going back to what I was saying earlier, if you get into the wrong types of behaviors, the cognitive dissonance in that war of like, you know, you have certain ideas or beliefs about something, you start behaving differently. You're going to change your, you're going to change your ideas and beliefs. Most people, it takes, cause it takes, it takes that, you know, I guess it takes some, some self-discipline and some willpower and some, um, emotional effort to get away from the behaviors, especially if away from the behaviors, especially if you like the behaviors.

To be able to pause and reflect and be like, well, wait a minute. Do I really want to do this? Do I really want to go down this road? Do I really want to start behaving this way? Take drugs would be a very good example. You start getting into drugs, and if you don't pull out, you know, probably relatively quickly, you could find yourself in a very dark place a year later. And you could find yourself having become someone that you would have never thought that you could become, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's who you surround yourself with. And even my fitness pal, I did it every day for almost four years. Every single day, dude. Like, it's weird to go four years. Every single day, dude. It's weird to go on dates. Every single thing. Some days, let's say 95% accuracy. And I'll tell you, man, one, that's weird when you're going out with your girl and she's like, what are you doing?

I'm like, you're texting someone? I'm like, no, I'm tracking what I ate. And what's been weird, I will say, is two weeks ago, I gave it up after four years, which is kind of weird. But I think the point is at some point, I've gotten everything I'm going to get out of it. It's super helped me accomplish my goals because I tracked it. I understood what I was doing, what I, you know, what's different calories and all that stuff. And now I'm like, I'm through it. I'm probably also now have a good sense of the foods that you like to eat. And you have a good sense also of the volume of food that you can eat and still, you know, keep things where you want

them to be like, I don't weigh and track everything. I just eat the same foods and I change things when I want to change things. So, uh, you know, I'll get on a kick of whatever for a bit, let's say it's for dinners and I'll do that. And then when I want to change it, I'll change it. But, uh, I don't need to weigh or track simply because I mean, one, I don't, I pretty much most all of my calories come from relatively unprocessed nutritious foods, the type of stuff. It's not hypercaloric. It's not hyperpalatable. It's quote unquote clean food that makes it harder to overeat inherently. But again, you spend enough time tracking and then you get a sense of, But, you know, again, you spend enough time tracking and then you get a sense of almost almost it becomes almost, I guess, intuitive in terms of intake where, you know, OK, I went I went a bit too high for, you know, a few days.

I'm going to cut it back for a few days and you can just kind of juggle it. Dude, I think that's money, man. Yeah, you start learning. And now it is a little weird. I'm like, I know exactly how many calories is in that thing. Yeah, I think that's money, man. Yeah, you start learning. And now, it is a little weird. I'm like, I know exactly how many calories is in that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether you think about it or not, you know. And I think that's the point.

You evolve. You live, you learn, you keep making... The idea is just like, bad things are gonna happen, good things are gonna happen, but try to learn and keep improving around all of that. Yeah, and again, like I was saying earlier, it's also understand the underlying principles that are in play, understand what's negotiable, what's not. And, uh, most things are negotiable. That's the great thing about, uh, well, diet and, and exercise. There are some fundamental principles that if you, there are the laws and you can't break the laws, you can only break yourself against the laws, right? So like energy balance is a law you will never get around. Um, macronutrient, uh, the interactions of, you know, protein, carbs, and fat in the body,

those just are what they are. You can play with them, but depending on what you want to do, you know, you're going to have, like, if you want to, uh, gain or maintain a decent amount of muscle mass, you're going to have to eat a fair amount of protein. You don't have to stuff yourself, uh, you know, you know, full of protein powder every day, but you're gonna have to eat a fair amount of protein. You don't have to stuff yourself, uh, you know, you know, full of protein powder every day, but you're gonna have to eat more protein than the average person. You will. Um, and you know, on an exercise, um, on the exercise side of things, again, it depends if you want to, uh, you know, gain muscle and strength, you're going to have to train your muscles with some sort of resistance training, and you're going to have to progressively overload them. You have to make it harder over time. There are different ways of doing that,

progressively overload them. You have to make it harder over time. There are different ways of doing that, you know, but those are the, those are the, those are the principles. Um, so again, it's kind of like deciding why are you getting into this? What are your goals? What are the, the, the laws that are in play here and how do I now take those and turn that into something that, you know, turn it into a diet that I enjoy. And, uh, I would say maybe like what you're saying, turn it into a lifestyle that you enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. It's just make it, I think it's hard to, like my girlfriend works out and I was like, how did, why'd you start working out? She's like, I just started after college and it was, it was fun for me. And I think, you know, what's interesting is as we were saying earlier, and maybe it's a good way to

finish it. It's like, once you start seeing some of the progress, it is fucking addicting. Yeah. Once you start, besides the health and it is fucking addicting yeah once you start besides the health and the energy and all that other good stuff you get a lot of positive reinforcement because other people notice hey you start working out hey you look great and you get more and more of that and everybody likes that of course dude exactly it's great so i you know for me i have a scale and i always try to weigh myself or go on my scale when I've like been naughty. That's like the time and I hate doing it, but I love facing it. And that's where you don't put your head in the sand. You look at it, you're like, all right, well, I'm a little chubby. But the thing that still blows

my mind is like, like you get back to whatever amazing body you have. It, it doesn't matter. I think that's the problem that people do is they, they get that up to the pinnacle and they crash back down. And it's like, no, just like figure out what that sustainable lifestyle is that you're enjoying giving you the results you want. Yeah. Make sure that just, no, just like figure out what that sustainable lifestyle is that you're enjoying, giving you the results you want. Yeah. Make sure that just, uh, move the goalpost. I mean, that's like you had said it earlier. I mean, that's anything though.

That's business. We, I think we have a, what is the great Western disease, right? Is I'll be happy when I'll be happy when I, when I have, when I have the, the abs or I'll be happy when I have the, the, you know, the, the house or the car or car or the X million dollar a year business or whatever. And that just never works. I think I agree that happiness is much more found. It's something that you can't really pursue. I think it more ensues from how you live. And a lot of it, I do agree,

comes from making progress toward knowable and meaningful goals, whatever those goals are. Having that sense of forward motion is crucial, I think. That's really interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. Because, I mean, things either get worse or get better, right? Nothing, I mean, just look around.

Everything around us is in a constant state of decay. I mean, that's just the reality, right? Over time, things, physical things, they just get worse and worse and worse. So if we were to apply that to ourselves as well, what does that mean? It means that if we're not actively working to make ourselves better, and you can look at that in terms of your personal sphere, your body, your mind, your possessions, whatever, the things that personal sphere, your body, your mind, your possessions, whatever, the things that you do with your time, your work, or you can look at it, you can expand out into a relationship, you can expand that out into your groups, society on the whole, whatever,

how as far as you want to go, if you're not actively working to make things better, they're getting worse. They're not staying the same. i mean i i believe that i don't know if you i don't know what your thoughts are but like you have two choices you can expand or you can contract that's it and i was for whatever reason psychologically expansion feels good and contraction feels bad i was just thinking that you know you talk to these people that are in health like you or me i'm kind of a little bit in health and they're so sometimes fucking annoying about it health is so important yeah like sometimes as if it's like the only like is there anything else to you or is this no no i agree with that but at the same time i was also thinking i totally agree sometimes it's like okay i get it you're you're vegan and you love crossfit got it but on the flip side i think there's something

there where if everyone's like having a lot of at this party, there might be something there to it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Everyone's just like, yo, I'm having a great – this is a blast. You should come and join me on this fun slip and slide. So I don't know. Maybe there's something to all the things that you've been educating and teaching people about for so long. You know that.

Yeah, I like your stuff. I still read your stuff. But, dude, I'm just fishing for more compliments. Oh, stop, dude. Stop. Hey there, it is Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful.

And if you did and don't mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you're listening from. This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility and thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live,

then just subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any of the new goodies. Lastly, if you didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at mike at muscleforlife.com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback, so please do reach out. All right, that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon. This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, but I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, this book has sold over 200,000 copies in the last several years

and helped thousands and thousands of men and women get the bodies they really want, eating the types of food that they really love, which is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring, bland, quote unquote, body building diet. And if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle, losing fat and getting healthy, then you want to pick up the shredded chef today, which you can find on all major online retailers like audible. Yes, there are audio book cookbooks. It is a thing. Uh, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google play.