Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Interview With Bestselling Author Ryan Holiday on Overcoming Life's Obstacles

Episode Date: December 23, 2014

In this podcast I interview bestselling author and all-around interesting dude Ryan Holiday, and we talk about some of the key messages about turning adversity into triumph found in his latest book The Obstacle is the Way. THE OBSTACLE IS THE WAY http://amzn.to/1gA93Dd Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey, it's Mike, and this podcast is brought to you by my books. Seriously, though, it actually is. I make my living as a writer, so as long as I keep selling books, I can keep writing articles over at Muscle for Life and Legion and recording podcasts and videos like this and all that fun stuff. Now, I have several books, but the place to start is Bigger Leaner Stronger if you're a guy and Thinner Leaner Stronger if you're a girl. Now, these books, they basically teach you everything you need to know about dieting, training, and supplementation to build

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supplements at www.legionathletics.com. And if you like what you see and you want to buy something, use the coupon code podcast, P-O-D-C-A-S-T, and you'll save 10% on your order. All right. Thanks again for taking the time to listen to my podcast and let's get to the show. Hey, this is Mike Matthews from MuscleLife.com. And in this episode of my podcast, I'm going to be interviewing Ryan Holiday. Ryan is a media strategist and kind of a marketing expert, I guess you could say. He's a best-selling author. He has a few books under his belt. His most recent book that just came out maybe a month or so ago is called The Obstacle is the Way.

It's a very good book. I definitely recommend it. We're going to be talking about it. I actually did recommend it in one of my cool stuff of the week posts. And we're going to be talking about it here in this podcast. I'll give you a little background on Ryan. He has advised various best-selling authors and big musicians on their media strategies and just kind of their marketing in general. He's the director of marketing at American Apparel. And he's a smart guy. He's an interesting dude. I think

you're going to like the podcast. So let's get to it. All right. Hey, Ryan. Thanks for taking the time to come on the show. Yeah, it's good to be here. Cool. All right. So let's just get right into it. So you wrote, the first thing of yours that I came across was a blog post. I think you wrote a little bit while back now. Um, and you, you were talking about something you called savagery and, and the message really resonated with me after I, you know, I was reading it and that's when I was like, I like this guy.

Um, so can you kind of share the, the, the message of that post, uh, you know, for the listeners? Yeah, I guess if anything, the, the post was sort of a reaction against sort of how soft and sheltered a lot of us happen to be in our lives. It's like, look, I'm sitting here writing or talking with you like in an office. I work from home. In an air conditioned, you have food within arm's length. Yeah, right, right.

And then if I was going to go to the gym later, maybe I go to 24-hour fitness and I jog on a treadmill while I watch television. You know, it's just this sort of – we sort of strip a lot of the confrontation and conflict out of our lives. And then we wonder sort of why when we are challenged or tested, we suddenly feel very overwhelmed and we have trouble. We have trouble with that, the sort of violence of that situation. And, you know, violence can have a lot of different connotations. So, you know, in my life, like when I've very much tried to sort of push the limits of what I'm capable of sort of physically, mentally. I try to, you know, challenge myself psychologically, intellectually. So that post was about, about, you know, two years ago,

I started training in Brazilian jujitsu off and on. I've, I've run really long distances for a long time. I, I, you know, I try to, I don't take rest days. The post is sort of about pushing yourself past what you were capable of. And what you're comfortable with, right? Yeah, and not in the, oh, I'm training for a marathon. It's going to be a really fun experience with all my friends kind of way. But like, you know, throwing yourself at it again and again and again

and taking a beating, taking some bruises, getting scratched up, really liking that sort of liking how it feels when you're wavering on the edge of what, you know, is and isn't possible. And that's sort of what that post is about. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. I've written about similar things on, on my website and how there, there definitely is a correlation there, or at least there's a similarity with, you know, you talk about working out, which my, obviously my world is more fitness. Um, and the re this is all relevant because I also do, I write a bit on, I guess you could say, you could say it's self-help, but more self-improvement and in these types of subjects as well. And, um, I I've talked about that multiple

times, just that working out regularly and pushing yourself regularly, it definitely does inculcate a bit of mental toughness. I mean, we can't say that we're as tough as Navy SEALs. Okay. But, but you know, we're, if you are, especially depending on what you do, like if you're going in the gym and yeah, you just sit on the treadmill and walk for 20 minutes watching TV. No, you're not. I don't think that really qualifies, but if you're going and pushing yourself, whether it be a running or whether it be weightlifting, um, you know, and having to confront that effort that you have to put out, that it's not easy and you have to, you know, whatever sort of mental reasons you might have not do it, you have to push through it. There's value in that in other areas of your life. Uh, because you know, the effort that it takes to

deadlift 500 pounds, that's a lot more effort than it takes to go, uh, do some work that you've been putting off. I mean, really it is, you know, maybe there's some mental obstacles, but come on. Um, you know, and that, that post also made me think of just, you know, soft times make soft people. And that's totally – and you talk about it a bit in your new book, The Obstacle is the Way, and I totally agree with that. It made me think of – I don't know how familiar you are with Mongolian history. I am. I don't remember actually which one it was, but it was, there was a point when the empire was, he saw it was getting soft because of all the Chinese luxuries that were coming in,

and he instituted the tradition, or I mean, it wasn't, I wouldn't say it's tradition, more of a rule, or it was a system whereby people had to be rotated, soldiers had to be rotated out into the steps every, you know, they had to spend six months, they could spend six months kind of in their luxurious, you know, sitting in their version of the air-conditioned every, you know, they had to spend six months. They could spend six months kind of in their luxurious, you know, sitting in their version of the air conditioned office, you know, eating food, getting fat. And then they had to go out into the rough, rugged steps for six months just to keep his people tough because he saw that they were declining in their ability to fight and just mentally declining. They were just becoming weak people. And, you know, his, his, his reminder of that was he even, he planted a bit of the grass from the steps in his backyard of his – the palace that he had in that area. Well, yeah.

Look, the book that I've written here, The Obstacle is the Way, which is based on Stoicism. The Stoics talk about this too, this idea of practicing poverty or practicing misfortune on a regular basis. So you're not, one, you're not afraid of it. And two, you're familiar with it if God forbid it ever happens to you. And I think what I'm talking about in the savagery idea is a very stoic idea. It's this idea that, you know, these are a part of life and you don't get anything out of pretending that they are not or, you know, sort of sticking your head in the sand about them. It's not to say that you should go around picking fights with people, but, you know, don't delude yourself into thinking that you instinctually know exactly what you will do in

a fight or that you have any idea of what your actual boundaries or sort of limitations are if you haven't been sort of, you know, testing yourself on the floor, trying it out. And I think, you know, for certain people, this matters more than others. But I do think it's an important part of being a sort of balanced, well-adjusted, resilient person. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it also, it relates to Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it also, it relates to success. I mean, I would say really in any area of life, I mean, there are obvious correlations with success in terms of what does it take to make a lot of money? What does it there needs to be a bit of that toughness. Everything doesn't just go right. And there are a lot of things to overcome, which of course we're going to talk more about in a minute. It just really relates to this book that you've written.

But even in other areas, like what does it take to have a great relationship with someone? After that initial, the fun first few months and then that's done. And then to actually build a good relationship, it takes – it doesn't have to be like, I mean, if you're with the right person, it doesn't, it can be, it can feel, uh, you know, all in all, it can feel great and maybe, you know, be overall an enjoyable experience, but everybody goes through their stuff and, you know, do you give up or do you push past those, uh, those things and figure out ways to make it work? Because, you know, I don't really believe that two people are ever really a hundred percent

perfect for each other. You know, everybody has, you know what I mean? Everybody has, it's a struggle. Everything is a struggle. Yeah, totally. So, I mean, you might as well just segue into the, into your book that you just launched, which I'm in the middle of reading. Uh, and I think it's great right up my alley, totally my type of thing. And it's called the obstacle is the way. So just to let the listeners know. So basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the, it boils down to how to, how to basically turn adversity into triumph. And in it, you go over and you cover a lot of historical ground. And I like that you kind of distill each section down into kind of useful, actionable advice where, you know, I'm, I'm a fan of Robert Green's work,

which you've done a lot of research for. You researched for several of his books. I'm a fan of his work, whereas maybe something that he would go into for 50 pages, giving a ton of historical, which I'm actually into. I like it. Yeah. But, but I, you know, you've, you've taken that and, and distilled down the, what are the key things that, you know, uh, that illustrate the point you're making and how can you deliver that in a, in a way that is, uh, uh, effective, but, you know, not necessarily belabored. So I think, I think what you've done is great i'm really enjoying it awesome yeah no i wanted it to be as short and concise as it conceivably could um because i wanted people to read it over and over again and to rely on it like when you look at

stoic literature it's very short it's very to the point um that it's in some ways it's actually sort of repetitive but in a good way it's meditating on the same ideas from different angles and that's what i wanted this book to be and i wanted it wanted to be memorable i wanted people to walk away with two or three or four or five stories that particularly stuck out to them yeah so when they when they faced an analogous situation in their own life. Yeah. They think back to that. Oh yeah. You know, this, this, my situation might suck, but it didn't suck as bad as so-and-sos or, you know, remember back to all that person. What did, what did that person do to overcome it or whatever?

Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, okay. So the book's broken down into a few thematic sections, right? So you have perception, action, and will. So let's talk a little bit about each. Obviously, let's start with perception, which is kind of about how our perceptions of the world affect our ability to succeed, to overcome obstacles, and to affect our surroundings. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, sure. Look, part one could more or less be summarized by the idea that there is no good or bad there's only perception there's only how we see the problem then right you know this is most a problem that i'm having right now you might kill to have my problem right yeah it might be you know a sort of a first world problem it might be something that's attached something you've always wanted to do i have so much money what do i do with it right whatever like we might you all of us would

trade places with different people who right now are fucking feeling sorry for themselves you know what i mean yeah so um what i'm saying so that should i've had to actually step back myself sometimes and like consciously reframe some of my problems where like stuff i mean not not as ridiculous as i have so much money what do i do with it but you know things related to work all the different – because I have a lot of projects that I'm involved in where feeling like, oh, I wish I had some time to just sit down and do something random. You know what I mean? But then sometimes I think like, what am I – come on.

Look at – I think back to even this before I was reading your book. But some of these things I just instinctively would be like, all right, settle down for a second. Let's put this into context here of how am I really looking at this? Am I, can I, where, how can I, like, is that really the way that that's just weak? Like I'm just being soft. You know what I mean? Sure. Right. No. And that's sort of what the section is about. It's how you, how we look at problems tends to define whether we're going to be able to solve them or not. Are we looking at it objectively? Are we focused on the present moment?

Are we obsessed with things that are outside of our control? Are we focused on perhaps the opportunity inside an obstacle? Are we only focused on the less than ideal parts of the situation? Do we have a constrained or limited view of what is or isn't possible? You know, um, are we looking at this with, with the proper perspective of all these sorts of things?

Um, that's part one is, is about preventing what happens with most people, which is they face some sort of obstacle or difficulty. And then the first thing they do is make it a lot worse, uh, by overreacting and then just want to give up understanding it. Yeah. Right. And how do you

think like, so let's talk about like practicality of that. So somebody has, I mean, everybody has their problems. They have their things. In my opinion, I think people problems are almost a necessity of life. If people, people that don't have a good enough problems, they invent them. They'll always figure out something. And you see this a lot in the idle rich. You see people that either, you know, I know a fair amount of people that have inherited money or, you know, they're in, they're just in money and their problems are so trivial and so stupid. Uh, and, but to them, their problems are like, this is the biggest thing. And there, they've been grappling with this for however long now. But so you have somebody that's maybe not in that situation.

So something – and you say like that things that are – whether something happens, that's subjective. Whether it's good or bad is subjective. But how does that practically work? So something clearly bad – well, I say clearly bad. You lose – you lose – Something unexpected or – Something that negatively affects your life happens and that's if we're going to put a qualitative measurement on it, that's bad.

You get into an accident and you break your arm. You know, it's hard. You don't – you can't really just be like telling yourself this is good. This is good. This is good. I don't think that's going to really do it. Well, it's funny. You know, I was writing my first book.

I was actually – I would write it at this club that I was a member of. I'm riding my bike to this club and my bike gets stuck in a streetcar track and I fall. I shatter my left elbow and I'm left-handed. Yeah. So I'm like, it's all over, man. I'm going to lose like two months of writing. This fucking hurts. It's the worst.

But I've obviously studied this a long time. This is before I started this book, but it w there was a couple of things. It was like, okay, look, I hurt myself. I'm in physical pain. Is this not an opportunity for me to practice sort of, um, strength and toughness under physical pain? Like I can't, I can't make it go away, but is this not practice for feeling pain? So it's not about you just telling yourself, oh no, this is good, this is good. It's more like, well, how can I take, how can I make something positive out of this? Exactly, exactly.

It's not saying the glass is half full if it's objectively not full. It's how do you do something that changes that status quo? So, you know, again, I thought I was gonna lose all this time. I end up, because I can't really exercise, I end up actually taking really long walks on a, both outside and on a treadmill.

I not only get in some of the best shape that I've ever been in in my life because of this injury, but I, because of these long walks, because long walks, sort of idle walking, stimulates the mind in my experience. I end up having these creative breakthroughs that make the book a much, much better. It took me forever to ultimately write them down with one hand. idle walking stimulates the mind in my experience i end up having these creative breakthroughs that make the book a much much better it took me forever to ultimately write them down with one hand but it if the book would not be what it was if i had not broken my arm and i wouldn't have chosen

to broken to break my arm and it hurt like hell but but because of how i responded, I didn't choose for it to happen, but I chose how I responded. The response made it beneficial. Yeah, yeah. That I can totally see. And I think that's just useful and something I guess I also would instinctively type of – kind of do in situations. Whatever – especially being in – if you're out there doing things, like you say in the book, like things are going to go wrong. You're going to have obstacles and people, not only are you going to have, you know, you have the environment to deal with whatever that is, but you have other people, other people are going to try to stop you. Uh, and especially as you doing whatever

you're doing, if you're, if you're becoming more successful, some people, they don't like that. That is, that's enough for them to just be like, I don't like that person. And if they're in a position to try to stop you, they will. So yeah, I totally can have, I understand that where things that go bad, where there's a point where like you have your emotional, I mean, I don't think it's also necessarily, I mean, do you agree that it's not like you never feel emotions. You have emotional responses to things, but it's then bringing them under control and being like, okay, that sucks. But what am I going to do now? Am I just going to sit here and wallow in my misery and I'm just going to sit here and be angry or rage or whatever?

Or am I going to actually find out how can I keep on moving forward and not let this stop me? Totally. how can I keep on moving forward and not let this stop me? Totally. And it's like, how can I, with my response, change the circumstances that I am in? Because they're not going to change themselves. Having an emotional reaction to something isn't going to make it better. And that sort of leads to the next section of the book, the action. How can I first get my head straight so then when I start acting, it can transform this thing belief that it's going to do something and also performed with some intention to have something happen as opposed to action that's just kind of half-hearted and you don't really think it's going to go anywhere.

Those are two very different types of actions or types of way of going about doing things. And that perception aspect is definitely going to kind of determine where you're at. And do you go into something like with your pedal to the floor or are you just giving it a little bit of gas and then assuming that you're going to swerve off the road and whatever? Yeah, of course. Look, if your head's not straight, you can't act right. So it's like right action follows the right perception. Yeah.

So let's talk about the action section. So that – I mean obviously the section is about taking action. But, you know, you say in the book that it's not about just doing stuff, but it's about doing the right stuff. So what do you mean by that? Yeah, it's like, look, you know, someone puts a brick wall in front of you, you could throw yourself at it forever. You're probably going to break before it does.

So maybe you think about how you go around, right? And so there's stories that, you know, actually I literally sort of, in that vein, I talk about the Siege of Vicksburg, which is I think one of the seminal battles of the Civil war ulysses s grant he faces this confederate fortress and he tries attacking it from all these different angles it won't work um it's sort of high above this perch on the mississippi river he ends up going down and around and then he pins them inside the fort like inside their own fort and it's it to me it's this great

metaphor because it's like here from one angle this problem is insurmountable from another angle that problem is the other person's problem you know like now you're now your fortress and the fact that it backs up to a river means you're stuck in it um and so when i talk about an action the action phase is one it's it's about getting started and getting off your ass which not enough people do right and about having energy and enthusiasm and persistence but two it's about thinking creatively thinking for workarounds and shortcuts and such so you're, it's not about brute force. Like in jiu-jitsu, you never challenge the person where they are strong. You don't try, if someone's got you with their leg, which is much more powerful than an arm,

you don't try to push on it or pull against it as hard as you can. You have to find a different place where you have leverage. And so the action, it's that twofold, it's the energy and the enthusiasm, of course, but it's also about being smart and deliberate and targeted with what you do. Yeah. You know, that also makes me think of Alexander the Great and his stories of, I think of the siege of Tyre in particular, which was the same type of thing. It was an impenetrable fortress and the ingenuity you know he built the the the highway across the the river to attack that where he wanted to just and he i think of i mean he did that over and over and over where he is up against

essentially insurmountable uh odds where you know in some cases even his officers were telling him like give up turn like we can't There's no way we win this. And he figured it out every time. I mean to the point obviously where he was just considered invincible. They just stopped even fighting because they stopped resisting him as he was moving through Persia because they just figured that

if he could do that, he can do anything. So whatever. We're just going to join him. And yeah. So which of which in, in the action section of the book, like, are there any, are there any particular lessons that really resonated with you? Maybe also in particular, like, like that point of enthusiasm, how do you, how do you personally where, where's your wellspring of enthusiasm?

Where does that come from? Because a lot of people obviously have run into that issues where they'll have ideas but why you know why is it hard for people to translate that into let's let's do something my friend charlie hone had a he said something good recently that i like to say it's amazing how hard people will work to get jobs that they don't want and so it's like where's my enthusiasm from was it's like the fight club thing to buy shit they to get jobs that they don't want. And so it's like, where's my enthusiasm come from? It's like the Fight Club thing, to buy shit they don't need, right? Right, exactly.

It's like, why did you... Of course you're fatigued and exhausted by these obstacles. You worked yourself into this corner that you're miserable in. My enthusiasm and passion for my work comes from the fact that I'm enthusiastic and passionate about my work i don't need to fake it right like i found a job and a calling that you know means something to me but i think if i was to say like what sort of section in in part part two the action section matters the most like to me it's it's um i love the story of amelia erhardt you know basically her first offer for a transatlantic flight is like, it's like, hey, you're our second choice. You're not going to pay you.

And we're going to send two male chaperones along. What do you think of that? And she said yes, right? She said yes. Like, I'll do it anyway, even though this is offensive and terrible. Yeah. Because there is no ideal starting point. It's always hard. Yeah. It's always hard.

It's always less than ideal. And the people who do great things are willing to say yes to more or less whatever. It's like with my first book, they gave me a nice advance, but they don't know this, but if they'd offered me a dollar, I probably would have said yes. Right. Because I was willing to do whatever it took to get my foot in the door and get started. And I've been that way my whole life. But you see this with a lot of millennials. It's like, oh, job market's not good. Moving back home

with mom and dad. And then they get so comfortable, they stay there and they won't leave until they get something better. And it's like, sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to, I mean, it kind of also goes back to that savagery kind of idea. You have to be willing to fight for what you want. You know, I think that the, the world, we, the, the social sort of veneer of things is very shiny and very nice and it's very easy to live and you go to your grocery store and get all your food and it's like the the the real problems that we had to deal with a couple hundred years ago was like if you didn't go to work you died you had no food you starved to death like if if you were willing if you were so apathetic that you're just going to starve to

death well that's no that's not the that's not people now. That's another level. If these people had to go work 70 hours a week to feed themselves and feed their families, and let's say physically you have to go work the farm. That's it. That's how you live. There's a sort of a level of necessity there that is just gone now because it's so simple. You don't even have to move. You can just sit on your couch and order pizza and have it brought to you.

Probably have the guy come to your couch and give it to you. Right. And you have to go to the bathroom and you can sleep on the couch. So that's about it. Right. And so it kind of goes back to that point

that you have to be willing to fight for something. And you talk about this in your book where their conflict, it's inherent in anything. Obstacles, you're going to run up on them. Any game that you're trying to play, there are going to be obstacles. So don't be afraid of them. Don't try to look away from them. Find out how do you play a game.

You figure out ways around the obstacles to get to the goals. Sure. You figure out ways around the obstacles to get to the goals. Sure. And look, that's sort of how the last – that's the last section of the book as well, which is this idea of like, look, put your helmet on and get ready, man, because this is how it is and how it's always going to be. Maybe it hasn't been for you yet. Maybe you've been lucky, but it's tough out there. And just when you think you got through one crisis, there's probably going to be another. That's, those are the breaks of trying to do great things. It's just how it happens. And so you better, you know, you better prepare.

And I think, I mean, I think it applies to, cause this idea of doing great things can, it's kind of vague. Like what does that mean doing great things? You know, but even on a personal level, like let's say somebody you're not trying to change the world necessarily, but you want to do work. You enjoy, you want to have a family, you want to be able to provide for them. Uh, you know, you don't care to be a multi, multi, multimillionaire, but you want to have enough money to do the things that you want to send your kids to good schools or whatever. I think that all applies like that in a sense these days almost is doing a great thing. Sure. Right. No, no, it's true that that's how it is. Um, there's that last section we can go right in. So that's the will section, right? Yeah. And it's not just the idea of willpower,

but this idea of sort of understanding how the world is and how sort of minuscule you are inside that world and why you need to be prepared to be tossed around. It's like, look, we live in this world that we don't control. And if you can understand this and accept that and sort of humble yourself in front of it, then you can focus yourself on the things that you can change so um it's it's it's not to say it's a dark part of the book but i talk about everything from you know perseverance to understanding your own mortality towards um you know sort of preparing yourself for difficult times the ability to think about the things that are going to go wrong in advance so they're not you know surprises um yeah it's it's a way of it's like look i would rather prepare not to say like i'm some doomsday prepper or something but i would rather i would rather be more or less prepared for things to get a lot worse yeah and be pleasantly surprised that it

all turned out fine i'm doomsday prepped to a degree. I have guns and I have a lot of bullets and I have cash and I have silver. So I'm prepped to a degree actually. Sure. Sure. No, I totally agree. I mean, you talk about the idea of cultivating sort of like a resilience and a flexibility that allows you to, you know, make it through, through what I guess you'd say dark times. You know, in that chapter, which of the stories, the vignettes, which appealed to you or which spoke most to you? I mean, relevant to this podcast, I love the story of Theodore Roosevelt. He's born with crippling asthma. His father comes in. One day, he's 12 years old.

And he's like, look, Theodore, you're a brilliant little kid. But it's not enough just to have a great mind. You have to have a strong body, too. And he's like, look, I'm going to build you a gym. You've got to take advantage of it. And he ends up building him this gym. It's on the back porch of his house on 20th Street in Manhattan. You can actually see it still.

It's pretty crazy. But he's like, look, I'll make my body. And he ends up transforming himself into the Theodore Roosevelt that we now know, this sort of adventurous, outdoorsy, risk-taking, brave, courageous man. Yeah, almost like he tried it. Almost like as if he was modeling himself after Achilles or something. Yeah, but he was doing it because he knew what it was like to be weak and frail. And he knew what danger that placed him in. And he didn't want to be like that anymore.

And he knew that the world was hard out there and that he had to prepare himself if he wanted to do what he wanted to do. He had to be both physically and mentally prepared for it. And so that's sort of what the will chapter is about or the will section is about. Right, yeah. Yeah, and even speaking on the physical, like I was saying kind of earlier in the podcast, I think that having a

strong body, uh, it, it just, it has effects in, in terms of has mental effects, not just like, oh, you know, dopamine, you feel better when you're like exercising, but just it, I, there definitely is some spillover in terms of like – maybe it's a self-confidence thing. Maybe it just kind of comes from that where if you have a strong body, if you're in shape, you're healthy, you just feel better and you're – it affects your perception of the world for sure. It affects your perception of yourself too and what you're capable of. And I think that the fitness world is pretty cheesy in terms of like you know taking selfies and like oh you know the whole you know aesthetic i mean i i take selfies to some of you i guess i kind of have to to prove that at least i know what i'm talking about in terms of fitness but you have

that element of it which is all just about vanity like oh aesthetics you know get shredded or whatever and uh and that's one end right thing i think that's that's just kind of a joke um but then there is you know these aspects of fitness are actually more what I'm interested in, or at least what I'm equally interested in. Um, because, uh, I've, I've, I've experienced that, uh, effect where, um, you know, if I'm on my workout routine regularly, I have, I have more energy, which of course is just going to affect how I go about things. Like if I'm kind of sleepy and I'm trying to do something that's very different than if I'm like totally there doing it. Um, but also, you know, I think just the willingness to exert effort. Like I've talked about that many times. Um, and it kind of goes

back to, I guess it's more of an action thing, but just the idea, like if somebody, you know, you say you want to do something, if the first thought is like, oh, but that's going to be hard, like you need to stop and change that. Do you agree? Yeah. Look, uh, one of my favorite authors is, uh, Haruki Murakami. Um, he has this book called, uh, what I talk about when I talk about running and he's saying like to him, running is both an exercise and a metaphor. And it's a metaphor for how he wants to live his life, which is, you know, why effort matters, why perseverance and discipline matters, why heart matters, why focus matters. I think it's true. It's like, look, it's not about having big muscles. So you can tell people you have big muscles. It's about having muscles so you can use them. And so, and also because of the process of getting them was worthwhile.

Yeah. And there are a lot, you get a lot more than big muscles out of, you know, what it, of that, of the, in the routine that it takes to get there, that you have to show up every day, you have to put in the work and there's no bullshitting yourself. You can't, you can't delude yourself. You either do the work and get the results or you don't, and you see it in the mirror or you don't, uh, you know, so the being able to stick to something and, and, and also be patient. I mean, I think that's a, I don't know, a lesson that I've kind of learned, especially in business, we're learning what it takes to really put something there and being willing to. And, you know, some of what you're talking about, perception resonated with me because, I mean, I'm not like a natural. I'm not a very I'm not overly emotional type person, but I would get frustrated over little things that were setbacks, you know, people's stupid mistakes and whatever.

Like, how stupid is this person? Are you serious? Do I have to explain everything kind of, uh, and, and to learn the patience that it takes to, to, to do, uh, you know, to do anything that is not necessary. This is not easy. And, and, you know, if, if things, if building a great body were easy, everybody would have a great body. If, if building a great life was easy and that's not just like making money, but that's like a life that you actually enjoy with people that, you know, you like to be around and that actually contribute something to your life, you know, that's not easy. So I,

it's not, it's not just that it's like, if it was easy to have like muscles and to be in good shape, everyone would be in good shape and there wouldn't be much value outside of the actual health benefits of being in good shape. If making lots of money was easy, everyone would have lots of money and everyone would be exactly the same. The point is it's supposed to be hard and it's good that it's hard because you have, like what I'm saying in the book is with these strategies and just inherent in

you, you have what it takes to endure the fact that it's hard and you can get through to the other side and once you are there that that is where the value is because you've now separated yourself from everywhere else now everyone else now you stand out there are fewer people to share in the rewards at the end because most people don't make it all the way it's good that it it's hard. At the very least, that's what you want to remind yourself is that it's weeding out other people who are not as strong and dedicated as you. Right. It's almost like a point of survival of the fittest. It's like evolution, but it's just on a social level. And, you know, I think that that's, and that is just a fundamental that that uh you say a law is applies

equally to it's not just to on a cellular level and we're talking about species but it applies you know in life in any endeavor or whatever that uh that isn't just the way it is and yeah there you know things have gotten easier in terms of our problems now or not you know how do i stay alive that's not really the problem anymore but but it's how do I actually live? You know what I mean? How do I have a life that matters? Whereas in the past, maybe you didn't even have the luxury of that because you're on the farm working the farm 12 hours a day. That is your life.

You don't have time to think about you know am i watching too much kardashians or something right no look in the past and this this is what i like when you when you focus on when you read something like marcus really is which is this book is which is what this book is based on everyone has had the same problems like right now whatever problems you're going through other people had it's like maybe your computer is like a source of just – you're addicted to internet porn or something. It's just sex plus being distracted plus too much time on your hands, right? The point is we've always had the same problems throughout history. Or just being a teenager.

Right. Plus they had more imminent threats to their physical safety at any moment. So it's like whatever you think you're going through, you come from a long line of people who went through the exact same thing plus something worse. So you have more inside of you. Objectively, there is plenty of capacity to get through and survive this thing. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. like not getting a disease and dying, not starving to death and not like, you know, dying because of the hazards of just everyday life, not getting eaten by an animal or, you know, getting invaded and getting your head cut off because you just happen to be in the city

at the wrong time or something like that. Whereas now we have, you know, our problems are more existential, which I think is kind of a newer type of problem for us to deal with. So. Sure. Look, we've, but we've always had problems of abundance. Just what was abundant was different. Yeah. But I think it was probably like it was less prevalent though. I mean now I just saw a news story that there's more obese people than starving people in the world. Sure.

But what I'm saying is like people have always suffered from obesity, right? It's not like it's always been a thing. It's a smaller percentage of the population as a whole, but there are basically no new problems under the sun. Oh, yeah, I totally agree. And so the reason I wrote this book in history is to focus on that and to say, like, look, people have gone through this. They've written down what they went through.

Here it is. Let's move on. Yeah, yeah, great. Well, all right, cool. Is there anything, any kind of final words that you'd like to give to the listeners? No, not really. I mean, look, the book, I tried to make it very straightforward. It's something that's helped me immensely in my own life.

I tried to write to codify these things that I use to help myself and to other people. And, you know, I hope it helps people with what they're going through. Obviously, I hope they don't ever go through anything, but that's probably not going to happen. And I wanted this book to be a resource for people when that does happen in the way that stoicism has been there for me in my own life. That's great. And just to kind of repeat, so the name of the book is The Obstacle is the Way.

And where can people find you, your website? Yeah, so my site is ryanholiday.net. I write for a number of sites, Thought Catalog, Fast Company, Entrepreneur.com, The New York Observer. So you can read my site everywhere and just look up my name. And then on the site, I have a weekly newsletter or a monthly newsletter where I give out book recommendations if people like reading. Cool. Great. Obviously, the book is available anywhere where you buy books basically. Wherever you like to buy books, you can find it. Like I said, I'm going to be recommending it. I do a weekly post where I recommend a book among other things.

Amazing. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Thanks for taking the time, Ryan. I'm pretty sure everyone's going to really like what we talked about. I know that these subjects are, you know, whenever I write about these things, talk about things, I get a lot of good feedback. So that's why I thought you'd be a perfect fit. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for having me. Yeah, thanks again.

All right. Bye. Hey, it's Mike again. Hope you liked the podcast. If you did, go ahead and subscribe. I put out new episodes every week or two where I talk about all kinds of things related to health and fitness and general wellness. Also head over to my website at www.muscleforlife.com where you'll find not only past episodes of the podcast, but you'll also find

a bunch of different articles that I've written. I release a new one almost every day. Actually, I release kind of four to six new articles a week. And you can also find my books and everything else that I'm involved in over at muscleforlife.com. All right. Thanks again. Bye.