Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Jordan Syatt on Achieving Holistic Health

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

It’s tempting to view health as a purely physical pursuit, especially in the age of social media and constant visual stimuli. We often associate being healthy with having a fit physique, but health doesn’t mean having abs or being the strongest person in the gym. True health encompasses much more than just our physical appearance or exercise habits, and it's essential to keep an open mind and adapt our perspectives as we grow and learn.  In this episode, Jordan Syatt, former competitive powerlifter, renowned fitness coach, and fitness industry veteran and entrepreneur, shares his journey of redefining what it means to be truly healthy. In this conversation, we explore . . . The evolving definition of health and how Jordan's perspective has changed over the years The significance of incorporating mobility work and flexibility training for long-term health and well-being The role of community and engaging in difficult conversations for personal growth and mental well-being Strategies for having productive difficult conversations with yourself and others Practical tips for managing stress in an increasingly complex and demanding world And more . . . So, if you're ready to challenge your perceptions of health and discover new ways to optimize your physical, mental, and emotional well-being, click play!  --- Timestamps: (0:00) Please leave a review of the show wherever you listen to podcasts and make sure to subscribe! (3:10) Try Pulse today! Go to https://buylegion.com/pulse and use coupon code MUSCLE to save 20% or get double reward points! (05:25) What does it mean to be a healthy person, and how has that changed for Jordan Syatt over the years? (10:19) How is Jordan thinking about health now? What are the new aspects of a healthy life? (17:11) Why is flexibility important? How do you improve your flexibility? (20:56) Is stretching a waste of time if you lift weights regularly? (25:01) What resources should people look into for improving flexibility? (29:14) How does body composition fit into Jordan's view of health, and how has that changed? (36:33) The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation: https://mfl.show/motivation (38:06) What is the importance of community, having difficult conversations, and their impact on overall health? (39:33) What are "difficult conversations"? (43:00) Has having difficult conversations caused issues in Jordan's life? (59:59) How does Jordan go about having difficult conversations with himself productively? (1:08:04) How does Jordan prevent negative self-talk from spiraling out of control? (1:24:57) How can you cope with and reduce stress? (1:32:24) Where can people find Jordan Syatt and his work? (1:32:46) Find the Perfect Strength Training Program for You: www.muscleforlife.show/trainingquiz (1:33:33) Subscribe and please share the podcast with a friend! www.mfl.show --- Mentioned on the Show: Legion Pulse: https://buylegion.com/pulse and use coupon code MUSCLE to save 20% or get double reward points! The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation: https://mfl.show/motivation Find the Perfect Strength Training Program for You in Just 60 Seconds: http://www.muscleforlife.show/trainingquiz The Inner Circle: www.sfinnercircle.com Jordan’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/syattfitness/?hl=en The Jordan Syatt Mini-Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jordan-syatt-mini-podcast/id1348856817 Lucas Hardie Range of Strength’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rangeofstrength/?hl=en

death has become a much more legitimate reality in my life. It was always a legitimate reality, but it's become something I'm much more aware of, much more cognizant of, whether it's close friends who have died or people who essentially were the pinnacles of what I used to think health was, who then have had major health issues to the point of whether it's actual death or life altering issues, strokes, heart attacks, whatever. And who knows if it could have been prevented by actually living a healthier life. Community is without question, it's the number one thing, like aside from physical health, that can help determine the length of your life and also the quality of your life from the perspective of how much you really enjoy it. Hello, I am Mike

Matthews. This is Muscle for Life. Thank you for joining me today for a new interview with my friend Jordan Syatt, who has been on the podcast a number of times. And this time, we are talking about health. And more holistic manner than simply viewing it as body composition or even as blood biomarkers, which of course are important components of health. You can't say you're a healthy person if you don't have a healthy body composition and if your blood is all messed up. However, you also can't say that you are a holistically healthy person if you have a healthy body composition and your blood looks great. There are more factors to consider if you're trying to optimize your health in a 360 degree holistic

manner. For example, to start with something physical, How is your mobility and flexibility? Are you deficient in either of those areas? And if so, maybe it's not impairing your health right now, but it can lead to health problems later. And Jordan will talk about that. How is your community? How is your ability to engage in difficult conversations and to use those for personal growth and for improving mental and emotional health and well-being. How well are you dealing with stress in your life? There are many ways of dealing with stress that are healthy and many ways that are unhealthy. And unfortunately, many more ways that are unhealthy than healthy. And so in this interview, Jordan and I are going to be talking about these things.

And in case you are not familiar with Jordan, he is a former competitive powerlifter and a renowned fitness coach and fitness industry veteran. He has a lot of in-the-t the trenches experience working firsthand with thousands and thousands of people over at least a decade now. And so like many of my guests, Jordan not only has a strong grounding in the theory of the many things that he talks about, including relevant literature, he also has a lot of practical hands-on experience and understands what works and what doesn't. Do you sometimes lack the energy and the motivation to get into the gym? Do you sometimes want to hit the snooze button instead of the squat rack? And are you sometimes

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Save 20%. Try Pulse risk-free and see what you think. Jordan, it's nice to see you again. Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. It's always a pleasure. Jordan, it's nice to see you again. Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. It's always a pleasure. I wanted to get you on the show because you've, you commented, uh, you posted about this over on social media and I made a note of it and here we are talking about it.

And, and that is, uh, that you have redefined for you what it means to be healthy. So for a while, and, and this, and I can relate to this too, it was more about body composition. It was more about performance. How strong can you get? How jacked can you get? And I don't want to put words into your mouth, but maybe your idea of health outside of that lacked at least some of the dimensions that it has taken on now. And so what are your thoughts now on what it means to be a healthy person and maybe how that has changed for you over the years? Yeah. So I think a good place to start is probably why my view of health has changed and why it was what it used to be and why it's morphed into what it's morphing into now, which I think it boils down to two major things. Number one is sort of who I was surrounded by, like the community, the industry, what

everyone was talking about when I was that age, and then also what my own personal priorities and goals were. And so when I was, I don't know, 10 years ago, when I was 22, 23, 24, coming up in the industry, and I was a competitive power lifter, all I ever heard about was just strength, strength, strength, get as strong as you can. That's all it is. Even there were sayings like my cardio is lifting weights faster, things like that. And people were not only people, when I say people, I mean, very, very intelligent. And when I say intelligent, I'm speaking about people who have a lot of letters after their names, whether it's certifications, actual doctors, downplaying the role of cardio downplaying other important aspects of health. And then not to mention my own personal goals, which are, you know, as a 22 year old, 23 year old, 24 year old dude, look good, naked, get jacked,

all this stuff. And it's so easy for someone in that position to just be like, well, this is what health is, this is health. And there, I think one of the major reasons it's changed is because my relationship with death has changed, which is really, I think probably the, the most important reason where death has become a much, much more legitimate reality in my life, uh, which it was always a legitimate reality, but it's become something I'm much more aware of, much more cognizant of, whether it's close friends who have died or other people in the industry who I looked up to who have died. People who essentially were the pinnacles of what I used to think health was, who then have had major health issues to the point of whether it's actual death or life altering issues, strokes, heart attacks, whatever. And who knows if it could have been prevented by actually living a healthier life. And then

also having my daughter and God willing, another one on the way. It's my own mortality has very much shifted my idea of what health is. And I feel like I can't speak for all young to mid 20 year olds. But for me, at you have i had this air of death is something that i'll deal with in a long long long long time you're you're immortal when you're in your yes it's it's it's one of those things where it's like yeah i know i'm gonna die but like it's gonna be in a long time and early deaths are not for me and it's all of a sudden where you like i had i've had a number of close friends and colleagues pass over the last 10 years, who were very strong, very fit people. But they didn't get their blood work taken, they didn't have their blood work checked, or they didn't take their

blood pressure regularly. They didn't do cardiovascular exercise, they were staying up late every single night trying to work super, super, super, super hard, uh, abusing Adderall, just doing things in order to work and work and work and work, or in order to, uh, look fit taking drugs, whatever it is, steroids, uh, in a, in a uneducated in a very, uh, dangerous quantities without keeping their, uh, having doctors check on them. It very quickly has changed my perspective of what health really is. And then also, obviously, we could talk about the research

and peer-reviewed studies talking about health, but I don't think it takes a genius or even diving into that stuff to really understand. You look at the oldest populations in the world, you look at people who live healthy lives and healthy in terms of they live a long time, but also their quality of life is very high. They actually can, it's not like they're just surviving, they're actually living,

they're actually able to accomplish things into very old age. And so for me, that's really why the shift has taken place. And so how are you thinking about it now? Like what are the kind of added dimensions? So you've mentioned cardio a few times and that's something I've also given more priority to. You got the bike right behind you, man. I love it. I love it.

Do you like cycling? I mean, I don't really care. It's just exercise. I don't treat it like training to be fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just do it. I do, yeah. And I do, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not tracking anything related to my biking

other than just making sure I'm getting my time in. Yeah. But I am paying attention to the difficulty and increasing the resistance. Do you track your heart rate or no? No, no. Okay. So it's just, it's just by, um, I mean, it's RP. Yeah, exactly. And then it tracks your wattages or, I mean, it's RP. Yeah, exactly.

And then it tracks your wattages or anything or no, no, no. I mean, wow. Okay. You're very much just like, you're just, you're intuitive cycling. Correct. It's, it's, it's very much exercise. Just like, all right, I'm getting into, I'm getting into zone two. And I know of course what that feels like.

Right. You can just pay attention to your breathing to know if you're doing it right. And err on the side of pushing a little bit harder rather than, rather than, you know, going a little bit lighter

and just making sure that I'm putting in my time. And that works for me because I really just kind of use it as a multitask opportunity in a way like if I have to make a call

for work even. Yes. I'll just tell somebody, hey, I'm on a bike. So you're going to, I can speak, but you're going to hear me breathing a little bit and it shouldn't annoy you. It should be fine. And I'm not going to be like, you know, but, but that's why, that's why I sound like I'm doing something. Cause I am or, or, or make a personal make a personal call, something I'm going to do anyway. Correct. Or I'll read because high intensity stuff, you can't read. You can't do that. You can't have a magazine open. Correct. Moderate intensity. I mean, read on my phone. So I can just sit there and read as well. I'm going to do that anyway.

And so that's something that I've given more've, I've given more priority to, and, um, and then, and then less priority to weightlifting. So I'm weightlifting three days a week and then I do cardio four days a week. Okay. I really, there was a time actually when I was during COVID, uh, I was, I was training at home, but I was lifting five days and doing cardio seven days. Oh, wow. And I would, I would like to go back to the, to the seven day. Oh, wow. And I would like to go back to the seven day. It's just, I'm pretty busy these days. And if I'm already spending an hour in the gym lifting, I'm just resistant to hopping on the bike for another 30 minutes, even though I maybe could make a phone call. But if I don't have something that I need to do, I have other things that I want to do.

Yeah. But anyway, I've given more priority to cardio than in the past. And that's simply just because maintaining VO2 max is very important for talking about health and longevity, just as maintaining muscle strength and maintaining bone density is, which strength training is great for. And you do get some cardiovascular benefits from strength training, but you're going to get more by doing both at the same time. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, from the exercise perspective, that almost covers it.

The one thing that I've really started being taking super seriously since November, November, December is, is mobility. Um, and I've always done mobility, but I've never taken it very seriously. Like I I've always been able to touch my toes. I've always been able to like, I've had above average mobility, um, for a very long time. I did gymnastics as a kid. And so like I've had above average mobility, but like not nowhere near elite at all. And number one, like I've gotten super interested in the science of flexibility,

which is just something I was woefully lacking on is the understanding of how to meaningfully change your ranges was something that I understood at a very, very ignorant level, like very like basic, basic foundational level. And so I've gotten very passionate about learning that. But then also the for looking at what happens as you age and how quickly mobility can can be reduced year over year but not only that it's one of the cool things about strength is you could take someone who we see videos of it on social media all the time someone 60 70 80 they can get strong they can get

newbie gains with strength training and it's pretty fucking wild like i love seeing the videos of of i think uh Alan Aragon's wife, Gianna Aragon, like her father is in his 80s or something. And like in a very brief period of time, he's gotten super freaking strong, which is incredible. And I love it.

For me that with mobility, it's much harder to actually make progress with as you age. It's way more difficult, which is why. Even at our age. Yes. Yeah. It's hard and it's annoying and it's way more difficult which is why even even at our age yes yeah it's hard and it it's annoying and it's painful dude it's unbelievably painful and that's another interesting thing for me is the different types of pain that come with different types of training whether it's you know

long duration zone two or like a short duration sprint or a one rep max deadlift versus a set of eight or or an eight in eight rep max yes exactly harder than that or or like a 20 rep breathing squats or passively holding a stretch for 10 minutes or going like for an intense uh very intense 60 second stretch or even like a very intense 20 second stretch. You know, there are the different types of pain are very interesting to me and how we cope with them. But the main one of the main reasons I really wanted to dive into mobility is because the rate at which you can improve goes down every year pretty dramatically. And so the cool part is just like with strength and just like with everything, the amount it takes to gain, to make progress is significantly more than it takes to

maintain it. And generally based on the flexing flexibility research, it takes about six times longer to gain flexibility than it does to maintain it. So once you gain it, like it's so much simpler and less time intensive. So I'm gain it, like it's so much simpler and less time intensive. So I'm in a in a phase right now where I'm trying to get elite levels of flexibility, where so I'm actually I dropped my cardio once or two times a week for like 20 to 30 minute sessions. So I have more time for my flexibility. And then within a year to two years, I think I'll be able to bring it back in more regularly. But flexibility is something that from an exercise perspective, I've really been focusing on more

lately. And how have you been going about that? What specifically are you working on and why? Yeah. So there's a couple of things. My main goals right now are the splits. So I have the front splits, the middle splits and the pancake split. Front splits are obvious. Your feet go front to back. Middle splits are obvious. Feet go to the side. The pancake is where you're sitting on your butt straddled and then you can touch your chest to the ground and really very mobile, flexible, flexible people can touch their belly button to the ground. It's just, it's insane. Um, so I'm working on that and then I'll, so that's kind of where I guess you're, you're on your knees, like you're, you're legs kind of out like a frog. So I'm working on that. And then I'll- So that's kind of where I guess you're on your knees,

like your legs kind of out like a frog, am I thinking? No, no, no. So you're sitting on your butt, sitting upright, like you're in a chair right now. Okay. Oh, got it. Now imagine your legs are completely out straight in front of you, but then you bring them out wide.

So like you straddle open. I already had an image and I didn't hear what you even said because I was thinking about, because I work on, I have a little stretcher routine every day and I thought that's what that was going to be but it's not. Yeah it's just the simple stretch with your legs open and yes and you reach forward but then like if you could get your belly button to the ground and like chest flat that's the pancake. Yeah I can't do that. Yeah so I'm doing some other stuff for shoulder mobility as well but those are my main goals right now and why so i mean why did you choose those goals just because i really i want

to be able to do the splits super bad like it wasn't based on health it was it was literally just based on like to get to the actual truth the actual pinpoint is i want to take a picture of myself holding my daughter doing like the Jean-Claude Van Damme split with my feet on chairs and me holding my daughter. I just feel like number one, that'd be badass. And two, I feel like that's the kind of picture she would put up in her house when she's older. And like, that would be a really cool thing for her to remember. So that like, I would just want to do the splits. And I originally just wanted to do this side splits, but I'm working with this guy named Lucas Hardy from range of strength. Who's just an absolute beast.

And he, he's like, well, let's just do all the splits at once. And I think it helped because about two or three years ago, I tried getting into the, I tried doing the side splits, but I only did the side splits and I ended up injuring my my medial the medial aspect of my knee because I was just focusing so hard on a side split and whereas now I have I have one day for each I have one day for front split one day for side split one day for pancakes but that's all I'm doing uh three days of mobility is is all I do right now but man when i tell you they're intense like it's not just sitting down passive stretching like this is unbelievably like high levels of strength and muscle recruitment at very at your longest end ranges also like very slow controlled eccentrics diving into your, your, uh, end ranges as well. It's very fun from a learning perspective. And it's also even something as simple as from now, like I never used to be able to go palms

to floor when I was, when I would touch the ground, uh, I would never be able to do that. Now I can do that easily. Like with that, I can do it cold without warming up palms to floor, legs straight. And every night when I put my daughter in her crib, and I'm essentially doing a Jefferson curl, where I'm leaning over and completely around my back, dude, I can't begin to tell you how good my back feels like my back hasn't felt this good since I was in high school, which I I'm only 32. I could very easily see how as you age a lack of mobility, even you could have amazing level of strength, I deadlifted four times my body weight. I'm not weak, but my range was leading to a little bit of stiffness that I could very easily see compounding as I got older. And many people listening have probably heard at

least that, well, if you're lifting weights at least a few times per week, if you're doing some sort of reasonable press, squat, hip hinge, deadlift type movement, and you're doing it with good form, you're going to maintain all the flexibility that you need and stretching is a waste of time. I've seen that claim made many times. All the time. All the time. It's one of those things where it's like- You want to speak to that? I've seen that claim made all the time, all the time. It's one of those things where it's like, yeah, I mean, we could talk about even just like the idea that you, uh, if, as long as you like squat, deadlift, press, whatever, you have all the mobility you need.

Well, just very simply, if we're looking at this in all of those movements, especially the squat and the deadlift, you're generally keeping a neutral spine, which is how we would recommend you keep your spine when you're lifting very heavy. It's how you keep yourself safe. You don't want to round your back like a scared cat when you're lifting, we have a heavy barbell on your back, you're trying to deadlift it. But most people when they're bending over, they're not trying to maintain a neutral spine in life like you want to move it. And I dude, I see this all the time where people have no spinal mobility, like they can't move through their spine.

And that's what is actually designed to do. And when people say, oh, I've got back pain or my back feels stiff, it's like, how the fuck do you think you improve that? It's not through not moving it. We need to make sure you can actually move through your spine in a healthy way. And so that for me is, it's an ignorant claim. It's a claim that I was brought up on that when I first got in the industry, it's like, your, your, your abs are designed to resist movement. Your spine shouldn't move at all.

It's like, we're literally made to do this. Like that we're our spot, our spine is designed to move. Uh, and so it doesn't mean you should load up a jefferson crow with 300 pounds and start trying to rep that out but you should absolutely be training to move your body in the way it was designed and to to move your body through full ranges of motion not just locked into one position and load that position and say this is all the mobility you need and of course stretching and that could be done in different ways it could just be with traditional stretches or it could be yoga or other modalities that involve stretching is just an efficient way to do that. There are some examples of exercises like a Jefferson curl and maybe some others that you could include in your workouts, but you also could just do some mobility work outside of your workouts yeah it

could take 15 20 minutes like it doesn't need to take a long time the main thing that i was very surprised about and this just highlights my level of ignorance when i first started getting into it was i wasn't aware the level of intensity that you would need to bring to mobility training. And not, there's a difference between how much range you can access versus how much range you can control. And, and that's where, you know, you see hyper mobility and hyper flexibility, where someone can access a lot of range, but they can't control it. That's when they end up getting injured. When you just, when you, you don't just want to access it, but you want to be able to control it, that's when you need to bring strength into the flexibility training. And that for me, someone who loves strength training, has been super fun. And where

I've seen, you know how we often talk about if you want to improve your posture and not think about rounding over all the time, well, you need a strength train so that you can help stay in that position. It's the same thing with any mobility work, whereas if you want to maintain and control that range, you've got to strengthen in that increased range of motion. more going into the weeds of mobility stuff, but I've just been so into it. And it's been, it's been such a big passion of mine lately. And, um, even, you know, getting, getting people that are older involved doing this stuff and seeing their, their life improvements, their quality of living improvements with this, with basic 10, 15, 20 minute sessions, a few times a week has been very, very fun. And for people listening who are convinced as to the utility of this and want to learn more, you mentioned one resource or any other resources you want to share with them, and then we'll move on. Yeah. So I mean, talk more about health stuff. So my coach is Lucas

Hardy, range of strength on Instagram. What I love about him, aside from him being insanely flexible and mobile mobile is he's he's stupid strong man he's jacked like the dude is jacked he's lean he lifts insanely heavy and like he'll lift insanely heavy in a split and he'll lift insanely heavy like it's just it's the best of all the worlds in which like he's he does a lot of gymnastics work a lot of calisthenics work but also a lot of heavy barbell squats deadlifts presses like uh but then we'll do a lot of the odd lifts as well like bent presses and a lot of like steinborn squats he does a lot of really great stuff and it's just cool to see and he's in his i think low young 40s i believe and the guy moves just like an

absolute animal it's just he's got kids um he He's the poster person for what you can do. And he's not a naturally flexible person. So I just can't speak highly of him enough. I also have mobility programs in the inner circle. If you want to do that, like 15, 20 minute programs. But I think those are probably the two best resources I would recommend. Love it. I was going to ask his age because I've joked that the 40 something year old guy who's still

even deadlifting a respectable amount of weight pain-free is someone you want to learn from. Yes. Yes. The 20 year old doing it. I mean, that's fine, but they may or may not be able to teach you anything that you should be actually doing because, because they're 20, they're invincible for, you know, they have that period. And then we're going to see. I've gotten really annoyed, more annoyed. I've really become more of a curmudgeon as I'm getting

a little bit older and having kids and stuff where it's like, I'm seeing these, my morning routines from 22 year olds. And like, this is what you need to do. And it's like, my daughter is running around like a maniac i got a dog who's going all over the place my i've got a pregnant wife it's like this morning like get the fuck out of here with your morning routine like get get out of here dude like it's it's and i i understand i get what it's like to be that age and I understand and I but it's I'm fucking done with it. So so what's your morning routine? I get up and my blood pressure immediately skyrockets and I'm fucking running or it's dude.

It's it's like not there is no and people like yeah, I take some time to meditate. I'm like really? And then journal. Make a chai latte and all. Okay. For fuck's sake, get out of here. 45 minute walk. Yeah. Yeah, dude.

Oh my gosh. And then they'll tell you how busy they are. Yes. Yeah. Just don't have time for anything. And then they'll make a big deal about how they're going to the gym. they'll be like if you or care about it you'll make the time it's like i mean i agree with that but like not not based on everything i just saw from you like you're not making the time like you've got more time than you know what to do correct correct that it is it is ironic uh to to

see those types of people try to take that. I mean, they'll say it even directly to the parents with the newborn kids who are also trying to figure out. I mean, they're sleeping five hours a night on a good night and they both have to work 40 or 50 hours a week and, and, and. And they're not even necessarily saying that, uh, I mean, they, they want to make it work, but it really actually is a logistical there. There's only so much time and okay. So what do I do? Well, you just have to want it more. Yeah. Okay.

Thanks Becky. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, but coming back to to health you you had um we talked about mobility which i which i think was great i think is interesting uh what does what does body composition look like for you just in terms of your perspective on on health and how has that changed yeah you, you know, I think that's the thing that's changed the least for me out of everything else, like outside of community and having difficult conversations and what we can talk about all that. But in terms of like a physical health perspective,

I would say if it's changed, it's changed from the perspective of personally, I'm okay having a slightly higher body fat percentage, but my slightly higher body fat percentage is still like way better than the vast majority of individuals in the world. even a little bit further where it's just like, I need, people need to reduce their body fat percentage. Like if they are, it's one of the like the lowest hanging fruits and one of the most important things. I've, I've, I've said this a number of times that generally speaking, less fat and more muscle means better health. Always. Yeah. You can take that to extremes and you can make it unhealthy, but it's not easy. You have to really take it to extremes. Correct. Assuming you're not abusing anabolic steroids or any type of performance enhancing drugs. Assuming that, I mean,

even outside of that, it's very difficult to overdo it. But for the average individual, less fat, more muscle is going to improve not only your longevity, like how long you live, but also your quality of your life, period. End of story. It's more people, it has to be a main focus. Yeah. And many people, sorry to interject and then I'll shut up, but just to follow up on that, I think many people, they don't realize that the less fat point is true. Even if you're going from, let's say athletic, let's say you're a dude and you're around 15% and people might get different pictures of that. So to make it clear for people, let's say you're a guy and you can see maybe your upper two abs and then you lose definition as you go down because

the body fat kind of washes out some of that definition. Some people might argue what percentage is that really, but I think generally it's fair to say it's about 15% for men. And by normal standards, that's great. You're going to look athletic. If you have some muscle, you're certainly going to look fit, but to go from 15 to 10 and to get below and stay below 10, it can be done as a guy. It's just, you're probably going to be very active. So you're not going to do it like us sitting on a computer most of our days. But even that, there are incremental health improvements to be had to go from 15 to 10

and then just stay there. If you can just more or less maintain that 10% as a guy, not to say that you have to, but that that is better for your health and longevity than maintaining 15%. Many people I've spoken with, they have the idea that, okay, if you're obviously overweight or if you're obese, sure, you need to lose some body fat. That's good for your health. But if you're not obviously overweight or obese, losing body fat isn't going to improve your health. And that's just not true. So I think this is where once you get to, we'll call it like that, even like maybe 17, 18% for a guy, once we get to that range, that's when I think more nuance comes into the discussion. And what I mean by that is if someone's morbidly obese, the nuance is very minimal at that point because not only the effect of the excess body fat, but also the lifestyle factors that come with it is way more difficult to move.

It's way more difficult to exercise your confidence. Depression is more likely like the, everything that comes with being morbidly obese is, is a huge threat to your health, mental, physical, emotional, spiritual, all of it. Once you get to, I would say by like 18 and below, like 18% body fat and below, more nuance comes into the picture from the perspective of, yes, your physiological health will improve going from 18% to 12%.

There's no question. I really don't see how there might be some variances, but your physiological health for almost everybody will improve for a guy from 18% down to like 10 to 12% stuff. You could just, you could just verify by doing.

Yes. I mean, super easy suit, cholesterol, blood pressure, like everything, everything improves. Yeah.

What blood sugar levels, insulin. The, the question, the nuance now comes into how is it affecting other aspects of your life? Is it affecting your relationship with food? Is it affecting other aspects of your life? Is it affecting your relationship with food? Is it affecting relationship with family? Are you traveling a lot for work? Is that now getting in the way of you being able to provide? Who knows what is going on? That's where I'm like,

okay, I'll give you an example. If I have some clients who are maintaining that 16 17 18 percent again talking about men and and they're they hang out with their family all the time they're very close-knit family they have dinner basically almost every night together and losing going from 18 to 10 or 18 to 12 would mean that they now have to like uh really um minimize the amount that they're having a dinner and it would negatively affect their the community at dinner or it would have upset their mother if they're cooking what like now i'm like okay that's affecting your menu changes yes exactly really work for everybody else and now the kids don't want to eat the food yes because it's not as tasty as that's where the nuance comes in where i'm like, is that worth it?

And so for me, like I'm probably sitting around like, I don't know, 15, 16% right now. And it's like, I know for a fact, like my cholesterol would be improved if I got down to 10 or 11, no question. But I'm also like, I've got a one and a half year old girl and a pregnant wife and we're building a house. And like at this point, me being able to just sit down and like not worry, even think about the food is because I come from a history of disordered eating with wrestling and all of that. I know that if I try and get down to like a 10%, it will affect me mentally enough to the point where it's like, that's the stress that will come

with that will be worse for my body than it will be otherwise. So I think the nuance really comes from as you get lower and lower and lower body fat percentage, but at a higher body fat, you really need to lose the body fat to get to a point where I would say you've reached 80% of the most important. That's like by far. There is a diminishing returns. Correct. Of course. And for people who are trying to optimize as much as they possibly can for maximum health and longevity, then that would be on the list. Okay. Let's go from 15 to 10, but that is certainly part of the 80% of things that you could do that are only going to provide 20% of the potential increases in health and longevity. Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Can you speak to some of these things that are not traditionally associated with health? Just the word generally connotes, usually people are thinking their body, maybe their mind, maybe some mental health and some emotional health. And so this is something that is more, I think, generally discussed, but it's not just pure physical health. Yes. I mean, before I even get to community, I'll just I'll bring up a different one really quickly that I think, especially in this day and age, I feel like everyone in every age, they're always saying that. But I feel like, especially now, being able to have difficult conversations on a regular basis, and for whatever it's worth, a community might be a part of that engage in conversations that might not only be difficult, but many conversations, but you need to have difficult conversations. And with difficult conversations comes learning with to give difficult conversations comes empathy, with difficult conversations, comes comes passion, because purpose, finding finding things, things you care about. And so so many wonderful things come come from difficult conversations and also from having a community. And what I see now- Can you just, sorry to interject again, but can you define what do you mean by a difficult conversation?

Man, it's a very good question because I don't know if there's a singular definition, but I think a simple way of looking at it one way, and I'm sure there are many, is I'll give you two examples off the top of my head. One is having a conversation with someone that you disagree with them on, right? Maybe it's a topic that you disagree on. That's a very simple discussion. Especially if it's someone you live with. Yes. Yep. on that's a very simple discussion especially if it's someone you live with yes yeah and you and you know that this this is gonna be a process this is something we have to work through it'd be easier to just uh let it ignore it yeah let we'll let well enough alone and i think so i think uh something you disagree with it could be something something even so you could bring it up to someone else, but it could also be, you know, you've been avoiding something for yourself and then you need to address it because it's something that you know that needs to happen for you. Not even about changing your partner or whatever, but changing for you, I think is super important, potentially even more important because it's very, it's not really fair to only look at what other people need to change and not like what you need to change that's also uh that might be a narcissistic personality disorder there's another phrase for that so uh i think those are absolutely never me it's always them um i think those are some of the more important ways to look at difficult conversations.

So yeah, I think there are so many other, other types of them as well. But if you're not having difficult conversations, another one could be simply around, like for me, I'm a huge history nerd. Like I really, I love history and, uh, I've always loved history, but even as I get older and older and older, I dive more and more and more into it. And I've always loved history, but even as I get older and older and older, I dive more and more and more into it. And having difficult conversations around historical context, around like either what things were discussing, why they happened you have them together, and then eventually make society better when we're able to have these important dialogues. So it's, I think difficult conversations and also obviously community mixes well with that community is without question. It's the number one thing like aside from physical

health that can help determine your the length of your life and also not the quality, I would say, from your physical capabilities, but the quality of your life from the perspective of how much you really enjoy it. I mean, we can look at the research around grandparents who live closer to their grandchildren and their level of happiness and fulfillment. Just a grandparent living closer to their grandchild, they're likely to live longer they're likely to have higher levels of happiness they're also more likely to be more fit because grandkids will move a lot so like you're moving around you're what you're playing with your grandchild it's also a why just having worked with uh yes middle-aged and beyond people over the years that

that's a that's a common why given i want to be able to do some activity, whatever it is, play some sport or something with my grandson and I don't want to be out of breath after five minutes. Correct. So I think those two things, community and difficult conversations are among the most important and among the most overlooked. Has the difficult conversations point caused issues though in your community? And the reason I ask that is in my experience, this could be also partially my fault, the way that I've gone about existing and I'm fine with that. I can accept that. However, in my experience, many people don't want to be challenged about anything. trying to skewer them. You're trying to have a constructive conversation that may require

some things that aren't going to feel good, but if you can work through it and then you can come through to the other end with a new understanding, you can have improved relations. In my experience though, and again, this is somebody who I'm a pretty disagreeable person and I'm aware of that. I think I've improved, but I'm aware. I'm completely aware of it. I've taken the big four test and I think it's fairly accurate. Do you know what your Myers-Briggs is? Do you know what your Myers-Briggs is? No, I haven't. No, it's the big five, right? Hold on.

I'm searching. My brain is just like, yeah, big five, not big four. Big four is accounting firms. Anyway, it's the big five. And so Myers-Briggs I've not taken. I don't think so. I'd have to actually look them up. I would love to hear what your Myers-Briggs is. I'll make a note.

I'll make a note. If it's easy to take online, I'll take Myers-Briggs. But anyway, as somebody who is extremely disagreeable or has been in the past, I've improved, I think, to some degree. Can I ask you, do you enjoy firing people? No. No, I don't. enjoy firing people? No, no, I don't. That's like the ultimate disagreeable where it's like Jordan Peterson has spoken about it, where it's like the most disagreeable person will enjoy firing someone because it's like, well, yeah, they weren't doing a good job. I'm really happy

to let them go. I can relate to that as a business owner, but I don't. So from that perspective, in terms of the business, yes, it's a good thing. And the business, it's not just me. I mean, if I'm talking now personally, there are a lot of people now that depend on my business or my businesses and people who are not doing a good job to whatever degree are not just imperiling my own potential survival, but a lot of other people. So from that perspective, it is absolutely the right thing to do. And I'm glad from that perspective, but from a human perspective, I've never enjoyed it

because it sucks to get fired. And I don't relish imposing that on other people. So you're very disagreeable, but you still have empathy. Like there's still like, that's very clear that you still have that, which I can, I've always gauged that you're a, you have a disagreeable aspect to you, but the, you're not the furthest disagreeable. You're also like, there's still a level of empathy to you and humanness there where it's not just like, fuck you. Like it's, it's, fuck you. I think it's an interesting, I've always wondered,

I've always wondered what your Myers-Briggs was. So that's why I was asking if you'd done that as well. So that's interesting. Yeah. Again, I'll make a note. I'll take it and I'll share with you when I take it. So that's the answer to that question. And so in my experience, many people, they don't like to be challenged. Yes. Even about just kind of what I would think as banal, not deep-seated beliefs, not trying to argue politics or religion or things that are really tied to people's identity. of just little behavioral quirks or ways of viewing things or anyway. So there's that. And I've also just concluded that most people seem to not want advice about anything because they perceive it as meddling and they just get very defensive. So in both of these scenarios, again, where you think it would be productive

to have a difficult conversation, which in the scale of difficulty, let's say it's in your mind, it really should not be, it's not that difficult. If we're going to scale from one to a hundred, this is somewhere like between one and 10. This is not a difficult conversation. But then, and again, I'm speaking personally, right? And I've been on the receiving end of what felt like a disproportionately negative response as if I'm going for a 90 out of 100 here, right? Like really attacking them to the core of who they are, like cutting all the way to the bone when I see it as maybe like a rubber band snap or something. Right. Right.

And so I've experienced that. And then also this point, which isn't directly related, but it just made me think of giving advice where now I just don't give advice unless someone explicitly asks for my opinion and my advice. opinion and my advice. Unless, and I do have exceptions, like if it's somebody in my life who is seriously putting themselves at risk in some way where I feel like actually morally, it would be a moral failure for me to not say something. And I'm not going to harp on it, but I feel like I should say something because I wouldn not going to harp on it, but I feel like I should say something because I wouldn't want to see something really bad happen to them. And then, um, and then know

that I didn't even try. I didn't even say, Hey, you may not want to do that. If your blood pressure is a 200 over one 40 or something, you might want to go on the dash diet. I'm just saying, you know what I mean? But how has your experience been? It sounds like you've had some personal experience, certainly along the lines of difficult conversations. But again, my personal experience is in some ways that's driven people away from me. And again, I'm willing to accept that maybe I didn't go about it in the best ways and I could have been more diplomatic or maybe could have been more empathetic or something, but it just has happened

to me over the years a number of times. Man, it's a wonderful question. This is the type of conversation I would like to have more often. And right here is an example of, I think, a potentially difficult conversation, but with a positive outcome where we're just trying to learn. But I'll say number one, I don't think anyone with difficult conversations is batting a thousand. I think there will always be times where it goes awry, and it just won't end well. But I also I view it from a couple of perspectives. One is this, from from what you can control, what you can control is how you approach it. And for me, this is another thing, I think that is probably a very beneficial mental exercise and is the strategy of how am I going to approach this in a way that will be beneficial for everyone rather than just saying what I want to say? How can I structure the conversation?

And I think another thing is it doesn't necessarily have to be just one conversation. It could be a series of conversations where you're deliberately trying to figure out, okay, how can I bring it up? What can I say? I'm actually reading an amazing book right now. Have you ever read Split the Difference by Chris Voss? Sorry, Never Split the Difference. I have it on a list of the different genres I like to read in, but I haven't read it yet. Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss is amazing. And Mike Vacanti, we were talking about him before. He laughs because both him, Mike call Mike's nickname for me is, is Dale because like Dale Carnegie, um, because like this type of conversational, uh, strategy isn't surprising to me at all. Like this all makes sense. Like it's just Mike, for example, like he's very good with numbers. He's a numbers guy.

He gets it. Numbers make sense to me. Numbers don't make sense. I don't like, I'm just terrible with math. It's not, I'm not good at numbers with conversation. I'm that's just, I'm, that's my natural. That's where I find my, my best self, the easiest self. So Chris Voss has a lot of conversational tactics and strategies

where I'm listening to it. I'm like, I do that naturally. That's something that I didn't even realize I do in terms of structuring conversations or understanding elongating conversations. But when you understand it's going to be a difficult conversation, especially for the person you're speaking to, it's not just about what you're saying. It's how it's being said. Actually, literally in the chapter I was listening to today, he cited this research and I haven't done the research on this or studied this, but it's called the 53855 rule, I think it was, or like 73855 where it's like 7% of how people interpret you and how they view you is 7% based off of

what you say like actually the actual words 38 is based off of what you say excuse me how you say it and then like the remaining percent 55 or i might have screwed up the numbers but 55 is based off of like how you look when you say it. So like smiling, your hand gestures. And this was research, I think based out of UCLA, but it was very interesting to note that it's like, oftentimes it's not what you're saying, but it's how you're saying it and how you appear while you're saying it, that really makes the biggest difference. And so I think being able to have real thoughts and like structures and plans when you're doing this stuff is unbelievably beneficial for you and then also for the other person.

It's so funny when you say that because it's just so contrary to my hardwiring for whatever reason where I don't need any of that. I care about what you're saying. I don't care how you say it to me. I don't care how friendly you look, especially if you have a good idea. If you're like, hey, Mike, I noticed that you're doing this regularly and you say that you want to achieve this over here, just so you know, that's really stupid and you should probably not do those things because it actually accomplishes the opposite. If you just do these different things over here, you could probably

get to your goal faster. I genuinely would be thankful. I would be totally receptive to that. Or even if you didn't have even a constructive alternative, if you were just to say, did you ever notice that you tend to do this and it's really annoying and it's just bad. It's just a bad character quality. I genuinely am okay. Somebody would say that to me and I would think about it. And if I agree, I actually would say, yeah, you probably have a point. And even if it's something that I feel like, I don't know how to change that. I wish it were otherwise. And I try, but that's just the way it is right now, you know, but, but that is, and that specifically has, has caused problems for me.

And I believe it. I believe in my communities. So like, dude, that's so funny. But even what we were talking about before we started recording in terms of like looking at the overall population like we're like oh man like you look at how the world is and how the majority of people are being the type of person that truly is like listen just tell me the fact regardless of what you like just if it's a good idea i'll take it that's such a small percentage like you are not the norm at all. You are you are the outlier in that situation. You're the very small minority

of people that can really just take it and hear it at face value and not necessarily attach emotion to it, which I would imagine is really good in some ways and really bad in other ways. It's that that type of it's great for work and it's great for just trying to accomplish things because it's very efficient in that regard. But it's not great in relationships and in community because I've upset many people over the years, sometimes the same person like my wife, many times by just not intentionally, but by approaching maybe a difficult conversation, so to speak, in a way that just feels natural to me and that I would be receptive to if somebody... I don't need to be buttered up. I don't need a preamble. I mean, sure, if you can say something in a way that somebody, I don't need to be buttered up. I don't need a preamble.

I mean, sure. If you can say something in a way that something I don't have feelings and I appreciate if somebody cares, I appreciate that, but I don't need too much of that. Just give it to me. Let's get to the point. You like to be efficient and productive. Let's not waste time. Yes. Yeah. it's like yeah it's funny when uh even with building this house my wife you know there's a problem that needs to be solved right and and so she'll start going through things i'm like okay uh sarah let's just skip to the end like just give me like let's just let's what's the end of this story this little anecdote that needs to be solved i i she's cool about it she's cool but i'm not i'm not obnoxious about it she's cool about it but

that's that that type of personality quirk and it is just kind of a quirk i'm not even saying it's a great thing or it does have utility but it also it it is, that sword has another edge too that has cut me many times. Yes, it's amazing for productivity. It's amazing for efficiency, especially in business. Like that's like the ultimate character trait that you need, I think, in order to be a high level professional in business. high level professional in business. I think the issue often, one of the other edges of that sword will cut you when you try and use that in relationships that really matter to you. When you try and treat those relationships and conversations within those relationships, trying to be productive and efficient with those conversations, when it's like,

this isn't about productivity or efficiency, right? It's like, there's about rates of change per minute of conversation. And I think, you know, we see a lot of this. These are obviously it's a huge generalization, but we see a lot of this between men and women. Like, like we see a lot, like if you, I love standup comedy because some it's,'s it's true like they take things in everyday life that are like oh my god yes i relate to that i get that and we see like how many stand-up comics like both men and women's stand-up comics talking about how it's like men just like just get to the point tell me what you want to say like enough like here like you have the story you're telling me all these different

things that don't matter necessarily to the end result of the story, but to her, it makes all the sense in the world. And it does matter even not necessarily from the story perspective, but from the time with you and the, the, the, that you're listening and that you're aware it's the things that it's not about the productivity or the efficiency. It's just about the time spent and the listening. And giving the full experience. Yes. You need the full context to understand how I feel about this. So when we're going back to difficult conversations with whether it's a spouse or whomever, it's

I think one of the major issues people will make is they try and make it a very productive and efficient conversation, which ironically makes it a very unproductive, inefficient conversation. actually have been resolved way more quickly and way more amicably if they spent a little bit more time showing empathy and and structuring the conversation in a way uh that would be better for the other person um but again i don't know anyone batting a thousand in difficult conversations but i do think it's important to at the very least at the very least not shy away from them you don't i, I think it's important to try and seek them out. Like I do try and seek them out, but at the very least, if someone brings it up to you, or if you're, there's something staring you in the face, no, don't ignore it. Like you've got to face that difficult conversation because

the reality is like, I think your closest community, the people who are the most important to you in your life, they're probably that way if for no other reason than you've had very difficult conversations with them. You've gone through difficult things with them before. That's how you develop your closest knit community. The people who are lacking in community are lacking in people who they've had real serious conversations with. How does that work with difficult conversations with yourself? You had mentioned that. I'm curious, you personally, how do you go about doing that in a productive manner, meaning in a manner that actually works to improve outcomes, whatever those outcomes might be, without falling into various traps and pitfalls that, like, for example, self-criticism, many people have a hard time

doing that with themselves without then spiraling into extreme self-criticism. Yeah. So there are a bunch of things that I try and get from the other person to let me know I'm on the right track. And it's funny because as I'm listening to Chris Voss, these are all things where I'm like, holy shit, I've literally thought that before. And I've never articulated that way. But for example, some people, I'm sure you've heard people trying to search out a yes ladder. When you're trying to go for sales, you want to get them saying yes, get them saying yes, get them saying yes. Number one, I think it's horseshit. I don't like that

strategy because a lot of times people will say yes, just to get you to the fuck away from them. Like they're just say yes, yes, whatever, whatever. But they don't actually, they're not invested in the conversation. And I know some people when they're trying to have these hard conversations, they're trying to get them to say yes, because they think it means they're agreeing with them. And in reality, they're just like, I'm done with you. I will say yes, just to get you off my fucking back. Instead of trying to get a yes, or and definitely I am never looking for your right. When they say you're right, what they're really saying is fuck you. Like I don't I don't ever I'm not going for a you're right. I'm looking for to the effect of

that's right, is really what I'm trying to get. And I'm okay, cool. So I know what response I'm looking for. It doesn't have to be that's right. Exactly. But that general theme, because once I can get to a that's right, now I know they're a little bit more invested and they're not taking it personally, but okay. So now I can reverse engineer. How do I get to a that's right?

Well, if I'm trying to have a conversation with someone, let's say it's about something that I would like them to change or something that I would like them to become more aware of. I really like to get people to, to number one, um, I like to elicit empathy within them. Number one, it's a very important and the vast majority of us have it. If they don't, you might not want that person in your community to begin with. But when I'm trying to elicit empathy, I will start by humanizing myself. And so when I'm coming at them as, listen, this is very difficult for me to talk about because I care about you so much. And I'm really worried about losing you or I'm really worried about you taking this the wrong way. When you start with this immediately, they are like, okay, like this is, this is something that's very difficult for them. And I appreciate that they're doing something that worries them.

And, and when you can elicit that empathy, it immediately like softens the mood a little bit, which is really nice to have from the very, very beginning. One thing that is also a very important word is fair. I think we all have an inherent desire to both appreciate and want just what's fair, like whatever's fair and fairness. Life obviously isn't fair, but I think we all generally would like things to be fair and fair doesn't necessarily mean equal, but fair is fair. Anyway, we all want general, I think inherently want fairness. So if I am having a conversation with someone, I will usually try and bring that word into the discussion. And again, this it's all true. I'm not lying. It's just like, I'm just trying to figure out ways to help get myself to the end in a way that's going to be productive for everyone. I'll very often say, it wouldn't be fair to you if I didn't bring this up. It also wouldn't be fair to me. And that's just one example. You can figure out a different way to bring fairness in but eliciting empathy humanizing yourself and and bringing

fairness into the discussion is i've found a very very easy and soft introduction into whatever conversation you're having the another tool that i'll use is essentially getting them to live up to their highest expectation of themselves. And what I mean by that is I used to do this all the time with clients. I would do this all the time with clients who are struggling with being consistent. So if I had a client who's really struggling, um, uh, a line that I would use all the time was, listen, you seem like the kind of person who, when you say you're going to do something, you fucking do it. It's a very simple line. And I feel like every single person in the world

believes that about themselves, or they would like to believe that about themselves. And so that's a line I would use with a client where it's like, if you're struggling with being consistent, that for me drew out a, that's right. They didn't say you're right. Like that's right. That is right. I am that kind of a person. And okay, cool. Now let's dig in deeper.

What can you do to be that person? How can we make changes to get you to be that person? Going for, and this is the last one I'll give here. There are so many, but the going for one word, anything that gives them the opportunity to give a one word answer is usually bad. Yes. And no, it's bad. There's no buy-in. There's no real emotional, uh, um, support. There's no, there's nothing there with a yes or no. And it's usually an often a way for them to get you off their back. Questions that are more open-ended, but really both what and how questions are very important style questions. Like what and how to, or how can we, what can we, or what can you?

These types of leading questions to get them to really dive in deep will show you how ready, willing, and able they are to make a change and also how open they are to the current conversation. If they're finding ways to make it very quick, blunt answers or curt answers, you know maybe now isn't a good time. And one of the tools that you can use in this situation is if they seem like they're not taking it well, very simply, and this will elicit empathy,

but just be like, listen, it seems like I'm upsetting you. And I specifically said, I'm upsetting you. I didn't say this is upsetting you. I'm because eliciting empathy. It seems like I'm upsetting you. Is there anything I'm doing that I can change? And almost immediately it immediately be like listen

what's going on is like this this this and this and this and then now you know exactly what you did that was upsetting them you can apologize like I'm so sorry I didn't mean to upset you I apologize for doing that is it okay if I approach this from a different way yes go now you can actually dive in a little bit deeper. I just rattle off a bunch of different strategies very, very, very quickly. I can, again, not recommend Chris Voss has never split the difference enough. Every chapter I'm like, this is articulating everything I do naturally without me ever being able to articulate it before. But those are ways that I'll approach and continue a conversation that could be very difficult. That was great. And I don't think I asked my question properly.

Great information. Oh, sorry, man. I apologize. No, no. I just ranted on nothing. No, it was good. It was good. And I mean, even some of these things I basically never do.

So I'm just reflecting on myself. Okay, I get that. And so if you're having difficult conversations with yourself, though, you had mentioned that. Oh, with me personally? your own weaknesses or failings or things that you feel like you should address. I'm just curious for you personally, what does that look like and how do you manage that without allowing it to spiral into extremely negative self-talk and other counterproductive and emotionally and kind of psychologically destructive thoughts and behaviors. This is where I think it just becomes incredibly important to number one, be outrageously objective. And I think with yourself, you need to be efficient. I think it's sort of the opposite when you're with other people. I think efficiency and productivity is a bad way to go with yourself.

You need to be efficient and productive and data-driven because it's very easy to become emotional with yourself and have these negative spirals. Let's look at the objective facts. Objectively, let's analyze what did I actually say or what is actually going on in my life? Let's look at the real numbers here. And that also, for whatever it's worth, is one of the great parts about having a community, because if there's something that I'm being irrational about, or I'm spiraling on, I can always go to my buddy, Mike Vacanti. I can be like, Hey, here's the situation. Tell me very truthfully and very bluntly. What did I do wrong? What do you agree? Do you disagree? Tell me why. And so I can have it with myself, but it's also very beneficial to have a community member who can always be honest with you. And you, whatever they say, you can't get mad. You cannot get mad at them. It has to,

that has to be your rule. If you're going to ask someone's advice and ask for someone's input, you have to put a foot down on yourself and say, I cannot get upset if they tell me the truth when I'm asking for it. That I think is incredibly important. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great point. And I guess, again, reflecting on myself, that has worked well for me personally, again, because it does work well if you're just looking at your own sphere of activity and what are you trying to spend your time on and why are you trying to spend your time on that and what are you trying to do with your various undertakings and how are you trying to improve yourself? And so you can benefit from that efficiency personally.

And I feel like you're that kind of person, and for whatever it's worth, I'm that kind of person, especially, not just my employees, my wife and everything as well, where if I'm doing something wrong, I make it very clear that I'm very approachable and you can just tell me exactly what I'm doing wrong and I'll fix it. I don't get offended by it. I just appreciate that you took- If I disagree, I'm not going to blow up. I'm just going to explain. I might argue, but I'm not going to be yelling. I'm not going to explain. I might argue, but I'm not going to be yelling. I'm not going to be yelling, but if I disagree, I will say, now I also, you can change my mind. You can argue back with me, but you're going to have to win the argument in a sense of. You are super disagreeable.

You are. Let me, let me ask you this. this let me i'm actually very interested and i want an objective risk like true true true response here yeah if someone says something that you disagree with about you yeah what would your and i know it would depend on the actual scenario but what would your like transition sentence be like if so like how would you go into disagreeing with them like what would would there just be like you with them? Like what would, would there just be like, you're wrong or like, what would you say? I want to hear this transition. It's, it's, it's a rough one. It's a rough one.

It's a, it's like when you were 16 learning how to drive stick for the, uh, for the first time, it's probably just going to be, I disagree. Uh, and then I'm going to say what, what I. And then I'm going to say what I think. Or I'm going to say that doesn't make any sense. Or that's dumb. Maybe, depending on the circumstances and who it is. Do you have any facial expressions that go with it? Like eye roll or eyebrow raise?

Like, is there any of like, what's your facial expression like? It probably ranges from, again, if the cordial response is I disagree and here's why, then that would probably be pretty neutral. And then if we go to the other end of the spectrum of that makes absolutely no sense. What are you actually talking about? Then it's probably what you just saw. That's so funny. I cannot wait to see your Myers-Briggs. This is like, I enjoy this with every ounce of my soul.

This is just very fun for me to hear and see, especially someone that you're someone I very much admire and look up to. And I feel like I'm getting to know you even more now. A lot of things make more sense. So this is great. I love this. You know, funny, just a quick, quick anecdote. So I was coaching flag football for my son. I offered my help as an assistant coach. Now, I don't know anything about football. I've never coached sports. I played sports as a kid. Never coached, though, until flag football.

And so it turns out the head coach didn't know anything really about football or coaching either. It turns out the head coach didn't know anything really about football or coaching either. So I accidentally roped myself into more work than I wanted because then I felt bad for these kids. We didn't even have a playbook. We had no structure to our practices. They had no idea what they were doing and no one else was going to do anything. So I read a book on coaching flag football and put together a playbook. And I don't know anything about football either.

So I'm having to call friends and people who work with me who played football in high school. Like, okay, I bought this playbook off the internet. And some of these things seem to make sense to me, but I kind of don't know what I don't know. It doesn't have to be overly complex, but it is six on six and the kids are 11 or 12. And so there is a little bit of football that's happening. It's not just random little guys running into each other and that's it. You know what I mean? So we're going through the season and there's this team, it's an Under Armour League. Unfortunately, they have no controls on age. So you had,

quote unquote, yeah, 12 year olds, quote unquote. Like there was this one kid about as tall as, so I'm like six, two. He was six, he was six feet tall. And they, yeah, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's like, he's sixth grade or whatever. Right. And so he's like six feet tall and athletic. Right. So, um, of course that just broke the game.

Uh, just having that one player, no ones can guard him. He would just run out and catch every ball. And that was the end of it. Right. So this one team, they had, they, they had several players like that on their team. Right. And so they say they crushed everyone throughout the season, like beating every single team, 50 to zero, 60 to zero, a joke.

Right. So, so we play them one time and I see this and I'm just, okay, whatever, right? But then now it's the playoffs and we just barely make it. And our first game is this 49ers team. And so obviously we have two choices. One is do nothing, just show up and get destroyed. That's our first choice. Other choices other choices do something and that means recruit some kids to come be on our team and play by the rules they're playing by like according to the rules their team shouldn't exist okay so if they're not going to play by those rules what rules are they playing by oh they're playing by rules that you can have 13 14 15 year olds on your team um i mean there was there was kid. He wasn't a very good

player, uh, but he was taller than I was. I mean, the kid was like six, six, not, I'm not joking. Right now he wasn't a great player, but still he was, he was taller than I am. Right. And so, so to me, it was obvious, of course, we're going to recruit kids and we're going to try to beat them. And then if we can knock them out, then maybe we don't need these ringers and we can just go back to playing football, even though they weren't the only team doing this. And obviously a lot of the teams in the playoffs were the ones doing this because that's how you beat everybody else basically. And so there's a group chat with all the parents, right? And I should have thought that this was going to cause problems, but I didn't. And so I put in the group chat, I explained this briefly.

Like, hey, so we have the 49ers. Oh, my God. They've been cheating, quote unquote, all season. Their team is stacked with... And I know that a couple of these kids play high school football. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. They're playing up at like 15 years old

and now they're coming here. I actually don't know why these kids, I was surprised they even enjoyed it. Yeah, why would you want to? Just coming and just dunking on 11-year-olds, that's fun for you. I remember playing hockey and as I got better, I never got great, but as I got better,

there was a point before I transitioned to a higher up league where I actually was kind of bored because I needed to play against people who were better than me. I needed to be one of the worst players again. And then, you know. At least make it competitive at the very least. Correct. Correct. Right.

And so I put in this group chat, basically just here's the scenario. And I was asking the parents, do you have, do your kids have any older siblings who play football? Do they have any friends who are a year or two older? We don't need to roll up with 18-year-olds, but 13, 14, 15-year-olds like this other team. And so there were two people, two of the moms in particular, who really did not like the idea. And so my first reply to the text of them saying why it wouldn't be fair to the kids for them to play. And it's David versus Goliath. They can do it. We believe in them. I know. I know. So my first word is disagree. And then stop. Are you serious? Continue to explain again.

We have two options. We can get destroyed today. There is no way this is not David versus Goliath. This is David versus God fucking Zilla. It's not going to happen. We are going, if we played them 1000 times in a row, we would lose 1,000 times. So that's our one option. And it's also not cheating when they've been doing it all season. And I'm simply proposing that we play by the rules that they have established. I'm not the one changing the rules. They changed it.

So I'm going to play by their rules. So that was like the gist of my- Disagree. right and so that's that was like the gist of my disagree disagree disagree and then and then a wall of text about why this person is an idiot uh and oh my gosh and then and then so so that elicited uh you know on the other end they're having their own chats really like what the fuck did he just say like oh yes so that's that's so so that that elicited some hostile uh some well it was actually more like passively aggressive yeah yeah i didn't i didn't achieve harmony i didn't achieve i did they didn't agree um so i so i actually just stopped replying and I did it anyway. And then we recruited some kids. And it was fun to see them.

They were down actually for the first time in the entire season. They were down at the halftime. We were beating them because we got a quarterback who can play. We got a couple other kids who can play. And they were losing. And so they, the coaches on the other team, were freaking out about how ridiculous, this is so absurd.

They were complaining to the director of the league. What? Who did not care. Because, of course, the director knew exactly what they were doing. The director had been hearing about them all season long and was sick of hearing about them. So the director thought it was hilarious what we were doing and it was great but but you see this is this is what came back to haunt me so the two moms who oh no who who i scorned in the in the in the group text they one of them in particular was going apoplectic. She was running around, going to the director herself.

No way. So in the end, it's not worth it. We can wrap up the story. But in the end, the moms got two of our players taken out, not by the director, by the parents who brought them. Stop. The director was telling her, yeah, I think it's fine, whatever. Yeah. And so she knew the parents of the kids.

And so in the end, we lost our quarterback and we lost one or two of our other good players who showed up. And then, of course, we lost. And of course, then that 49ers team went on to destroy every other team

and win the championship. Oh, shocker and you know oh gosh she was saying like what kind of message are we sending to our kids that they have to cheat to win like no no it's it's literally the opposite because even in the playing field they know that the other team is cheating they know right that that six foot tall kid who literally nobody can cover and whenever they want to score a touchdown all they do is they just run him down the field and throw the ball up and he catches it. That kid, they know he's not 11, 12 years old. So what are we saying? We're actually saying what you're saying by not doing anything. And if they're going to take a lesson out of this, it's maybe going to be, well, maybe you should join the teams that cheat, or maybe you should just be cheating because the rules aren't enforced. And if you don't cheat, you lose. Maybe that's what they're going to get out of it. But again, because of how I went about it, that message, I mean, you're like, yes,

that's perfectly logical. That's efficient. That works uh but when you lead with disagree uh and then talk about david versus godzilla it's disagree david godzilla like here's why you're wrong and then like just doing it on your own without this is like the perfect example. That's like, I love that. That's amazing. But also on another note, like it's actually, they did something really bad for their kids where it's like, they just told them that cheating works where it's like, okay, well, instead of cheating, how about we, we get strategic with what we're doing and then we can figure out a way to win. Like when we're strategic about it, even if they're cheating, like that's that.

I think your lesson would have been much better. But unfortunately, with the way that you went about it, it didn't go well. I did not apply Chris Voss's principles. Bro, you have to read that book. It's so good. There's like. I will. I will.

I'm to be honest i i don't hold out much hope for how much of that i can internalize but i like the challenge of trying to improve and yeah and it is it actually jokes aside um it it is a personal failing of mine that i have consciously tried to work on and in and study you know who's really good at it is miles that doesn't surprise me though miles like naturally does the natural though that's the thing he's a natural okay i was gonna say it doesn't count yeah disagree he doesn't disagree yeah but no it's true it's true i mean he that he is totally you can't not like miles like you can't like it's he's just one of the most likable people it's i i would i guarantee if he read that book, he'd be like, yeah, I do that all the time. That's just very obvious to me. Yep. Yep. And for people listening,

Miles works for my sports nutrition company. He works with me over at Legion and he runs our sponsorship program. And it's the perfect job for him because he's such a likable guy. And so much of that job is building relationships. It's not just being efficient and getting the numbers right. That's part of it. That is part of it. But so much of it is being a good guy, being a likable guy, and actually caring about the person you're doing this transaction with and not just looking at them as a transaction and so on and so on. Exactly. And things are all things he does very well with.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Dude, that's so funny. I know we've been going for a bit and I just wanted to ask one more question if you still, if you have another 10 minutes or so. So coming back to health, one last thing that I think that we should talk about and love to hear your thoughts on is just coping with stress because we all have to do it. And you, as your life has gotten more complex, I'm sure that it's also, it's gotten more stressful. And I'm just curious how that's been for you and if you're coping strategies, so to speak, if I had to change or. your coping strategies, so to speak, if I had to change or.

Man, it's a really good question. Honestly, man, there's a couple of things. I think the biggest thing, and this isn't just for me, this is for everyone. And I always get people mad when I say this, but it's like, number one, don't watch the news. It's just, it's not good. I think it's good advice. I've, I don't like to be completely ignorant of what's going on in the world, but I've consciously, I wouldn't say I ever spent a lot of time,

but I would check, like there are a couple news aggregator websites that I like. Yes, exactly, yes. So- But I wouldn't even do that. No, I'm saying like I've even cut back on that to- Yes, cut back.

You don't need to check it every hour or even every time you open your phone, you know? Or multiple times per day even. Correct. Once per day. And if you want to do that, just to understand what is generally going on not to you'd be naive to think that you're going to get all the facts that way

you're not yes but at least there are things that are happening and for whatever that's worth and i don't know man maybe you could even argue that that doesn't how much does that really matter unless it somehow directly relates to maybe your work or relationships where you have to be informed or something? Correct. Otherwise, it might not even be a good use of time at all, honestly. Correct. Might be completely ignorant. I don't know.

I mean, there's definitely a middle ground there for sure. But I think that not looking at the news, I think social media, and again, my business is largely run off of social media, but dude, there's no question. So during Shabbat, in Judaism, Friday night through Saturday is no electronics, and I'm not the best with it, but I really try and make sure that Friday night I don't use any electronics, especially no social media. electronics and like especially no social media and um dude the the difference in stress like literally so from the moment it's supposed to be from sunset to sunset but uh we'll usually have dinner before sunset so like from the moment we have dinner phones down not looking at my phone anymore the rest of the night at least on friday and um the moment i put my foot down my my phone down dude stress immediately like, like feet, like melting away, weight off of my shoulders, like almost like, Oh, thank God. I don't need to look

at social media anymore. I don't need to be like, have my feet. I don't need to be in this endless vortex. So I think from an immediate stress reduction perspective is like putting real foot, you're putting your foot down and having real limits on how much time you spend on social media and news outlets. It's just, I think that the research that we're going to see on this is going to be overwhelmingly clear that it's causing unbelievable damage to people

from a stress perspective. I would love to see a study that is tracking people's cortisol and stress responses as they open and close social media. As they scroll? Yes, dude. And what they choose to linger on yes engage with man i i would i would love to see that i'm sure they'll come out with that soon but um so i that honestly i think is number one i know everyone has different like stress reduction tips like breathing nasal breathing and tea and what like listen i think the biggest issue the lowest and

that's i think very much my eat like my mo is like let's go for the lowest hanging fruit like let's like look at the most important things and right now people are efficient are yes like they're addicted to their phones and they're addicted to social media and if you're overly stressed get the fuck off social media like that's why i love doing podcasts it's why i love doing like your podcast i love doing my podcast like podcasts to me are it's long form content where you have this is the only thing you're looking at or watching this is it it's not like over like new new new new new it's just it's relatively low dopamine uh Uh, it's,

it's, I think it's a way better option for people. So the people who are listening, great, you're doing fantastic. But I bet there are people who are both listening and looking at social media right now who are listening and scrolling, get the stop scrolling. You don't need to have like, dude, I remember when I was a kid, we just had like one shitty TV in my house. It was like, I couldn't imagine looking at that TV and my phone and also like another screen over there. It's like, where there's so many screens all the time.

Fuck, put it down, focus on where you are. No wonder you're so stressed. And now it's, it's, it's going inception level. It's becoming fractal.

I saw recently a game that is under development or maybe it's out or something. And so in the game, you're a character, it looked kind of like Minecraft. Um, and so it was like a 3d Mario kind of game, right? So it, it's a platformer where you're running around, jumping up on things and it's, and it's, it was 3d. And then in the game, your, your character is holding like a game boy like a portable a portable game playing no way yeah dude and and that if i remember if i'm if my memory if i'm seeing it right that was a 2d platformer version of the 3d platformer and you had to play both simultaneously oh my gosh yep you had to play the 2d platformer in the game while you're playing 3d platformer that was uh that was one of those like terminal internet moments like okay that's enough internet

for today so i'm closing i would love to have been in that board meeting like all right what are we gonna do really fry these kids oh my god yeah dude you thought you thought their attention spans were were short and scattered now just yeah just wait until we get them on this trend oh where eventually they're trying to play four games at once just yeah that's my like major stress reduction tip which which by the way, like I struggle with it as well, but like that I think is the lowest hanging fruit for most people right now. Yeah. It, it aligns with, um, just, I think a good principle for living is, uh, if you want to improve happiness, it can be hard to, to find out what really makes us happy.

Like what, what adds happiness to our, to our life? There are some easy answers, but it can be difficult to really work that out. But what is less difficult is identifying things that are making us miserable and just doing less of those things or eliminating those things altogether to whatever degree we can. That tends to be easier than trying to find the answer to what is going to make me happy. Yeah. Super efficient. I agree with that.

Agree. Agree. Not disagree. Well, I've kept you for an hour and a half and I think we can wrap up. We could keep on going, but I always enjoy these talks. We can- Thank you, man. I appreciate it. We can pick up on some of the other things that I wanted to get to maybe in the next one. Awesome, dude. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. And let me know what you get on the Myers-Briggs.

Yeah, I've made a note. I will. And before we sign off, just so people can find you, find your work, if they're still listening, they may want to know more about what you're doing. You mentioned you're on social media. Is that the best way for them to find you? You have a website as well. Anything in particular you want them to know about? Just the Jordan Siet Mini podcast is my podcast, my Instagram, Siet Fitness, but that's it, man. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Thank you. podcast, my Instagram, Sight Fitness, but that's it, man. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Thank you. Have you ever wondered what strength training split you should follow?

What rep ranges you should work in? How many sets you should do per workout or per week? Well, I created a free 60-second training quiz that will answer those questions for you and others, including how frequently you should train each major muscle group, which exercises you should do, what supplements you should consider, which ones are at least worth taking, and more. To take this quiz and to get your free personalized training plan, go to muscleforlife.show, muscleforlife.show slash training quiz, answer the questions and learn exactly what to do in the gym to gain more muscle and strength. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did subscribe to the show, because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings

of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just what your thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon.