Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - “Knees-Over-Toes-Guy” Ben Patrick on Fixing Painful and Dysfunctional Knees

Episode Date: July 7, 2021

If you (k)need help with your knees (har har), this podcast is for you. That’s because I’m having a chat with Ben Patrick, also known as the Knees Over Toes Guy, and we’re talking all about improving knee function and pain. In case you’re not familiar with Ben, he’s taken the fitness world by storm with a seemingly controversial and contrarian stance on the old adage of never pushing your knees past your toes. So much so that he’s gained over 1 million followers across social media fast, and been featured on the Joe Rogan podcast. Ben gave up a career in college basketball to help people build strong, healthy knees, reduce knee pain, avoid surgery, and unlock their athletic potential. We’ll get more into his background in the interview, but after spending his teenage years riddled with chronic knee pain and getting knee surgery, he developed his own system to build bulletproof knees. Now he can perform impressive feats of lower body mobility and knee strength, and coaches everyone from to newbies dealing with knee issues to elite athletes wanting to perform their absolute best. In this interview, Ben and I talk about how he rehabilitated two dysfunctional knees, the benefits of walking backwards and reverse step-ups, supplements that can help with joint pain, and a whole lot more. So if you want to learn how Ben beat chronic knee pain, and how certain simple exercises can unlock your true athletic potential, listen to this interview! Timestamps: 6:49 - Why knees over toes? What is the significance of that? 17:24 - How did you start healing your knees to play professional basketball? 23:11 - Where did it go from there? 57:31 - What are some supplements that people should take for knee pain? Mentioned on the Show: Ben Patrick’s Instagram: www.instagram.com/kneesovertoesguy/ Ben Patrick’s YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCGybO-bWZ3W6URh42sdMQiw Ben Patrick’s Program: atgonlinecoaching.com Shop Legion Supplements Here: buylegion.com/mike Want free workout and meal plans? Download my science-based diet and training templates for men and women: https://legionathletics.com/text-sign-up/

Hey, I'm Mike Matthews, and this is Muscle for Life. Welcome to a new episode, and thank you for joining me today. And this one is going to be great for you if you need help with your knees. Oh, I crack myself up. No, seriously, though, because in this podcast, I chat with Ben Patrick, also known as the Knees Over Toes guy, and we talk about improving knee function and eliminating knee pain. And in case you're not familiar with Ben, he has taken the fitness world

by storm, I suppose you could say, with a seemingly controversial and contrarian stance on the old adage that you should never allow your knees to go past your toes when you squat or lunge or do anything really. That knees over toes equals injury. And as an aside, Ben is also a personal friend. I've known Ben for a long time. I knew him before he was the knees over toes guy. And his journey resonates with me because in some ways it's similar to mine. I published, I self-published Bigger, Leaner, Stronger back in 2012. I had no connections in the industry and I had no idea if anyone would even buy it. As I've said, when I published that book, I thought it was a coin flip. I thought it was 50-50 between selling zero copies and not zero copies. And 20 people bought my book in the first

month. And I was excited that 20 was not zero. And similarly, Ben has a personal story of all the problems he used to have with his knees. And he finally figured out some simple and effective ways to overcome those issues and to go from having very dysfunctional knees to very functional knees and to not have to take drugs anymore and no more surgeries. And now he has over a million followers and he has tens of thousands of success stories of people who have used his methods, which are very straightforward and very safe, as you will learn on this podcast, and really something that you might as well try if you are having knee problems. Because again, you're not going to hurt yourself with any of this, and you might just completely resolve the issue, which many, many people have done who have taken Ben's advice. And there is almost

certainly preventative value to his methods as well. If you want to take a little bit of time to do what he's going to talk about on this podcast, you can probably reduce your chances of having knee problems in the future if you don't currently have any now. Also, if you like what I am doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. And we're on top because every ingredient and dose in every product is backed by peer-reviewed scientific research, every formulation is 100% transparent, there are no proprietary blends, for example, and everything is naturally sweetened and flavored. So that means no artificial sweeteners,

no artificial food dyes, which may not be as dangerous as some people would have you believe, but there is good evidence to suggest that having many servings of artificial sweeteners in particular every day for long periods of time may not be the best for your health. So while you don't need pills, powders, and potions to get into great shape, and frankly most of them are virtually useless. There are natural ingredients that can help you lose fat, build muscle, and get healthy faster, and you will find the best of them in Legion's products. To check out everything we have to offer, including protein powders and bars,

pre-workout and post-workout supplements, fat burners, multivitamins, joint support, and more, head over to buylegion.com slash Mike. That's B-U-Y-L-E-G-I-O-N dot com slash Mike. And just to show you how much I appreciate my podcast, peeps, use the coupon code MFL at checkout and you will save 20% on your entire first order. Hey, Ben, welcome to my podcast. Thanks for making the time to do this. Thanks so much. I'm stoked. I guess you could say obscurity to, I don't know, I know you wouldn't like the term celebrity, but at least to, you have, I don't know, a million followers across these social networks now.

But more importantly, it's cool to see because before you became knees over toes guy, I remember in Florida and you had a gym and you were working with athletes and helping a lot of high school kids be better football players. And you had a lot of passion for fitness and just helping people. Your focus has been athleticism always over just aesthetics. Like, you know, you weren't training bodybuilders, you're training people who want to perform better. And now just a couple of years later, you've really built a brand and you're reaching millions of people and helping tens of thousands of people. And it's just cool to see.

I can relate to it a little bit because my story is semi-similar, right? In 2012, I published a book. I had no connections. I had no brand. I had no name. I just put good information out there and enough people found it and told others about it. And that became something. So it's cool. It's cool to see. No, it and told others about it. And that became something.

So it's cool. It's cool to see. No, it's a super similar story. I remember watching you work out in LA Fitness. I thought you looked like Hugh Jackman. I was very jealous. And it was cool. I got to see you do it.

And I mean, it definitely, I think it makes a difference for someone when they've seen someone else succeed at their goals that they actually observed. And it's like, well, shit, that could actually happen to a regular person. You know? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I totally understand. So again, it's very cool. And then also I'm excited to talk to you about, well, the content we're going to get into because it's something that obviously is resonating with a lot of people, and it's not an area that I have written or spoken much about. I've produced a little bit of content on helping resolve pain, but not anything like what you've done.

I've stuck mostly to my lane, so to speak, which is just body comp stuff, right? And I would also include health in that, but how to build muscle, how to lose fat, how to get healthy, how to stay that way in a sustainable and enjoyable way. So that's obviously the majority of my work, just focusing on those things. Whereas I think where we should start is why knees over toes guy? Like what's the significance of that? How has that led to, I think if I, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but your first big kind of splash or big win has been helping people improve their knee function, get rid of pain and improve performance, right?

Yeah. You know, I try to work on the whole body like anyone would in their training, but I'm very okay with just, you know, being considered an e-specialist because that was what really was ruining my life. And I tried to save us some time here. So I tried to kind of identify how the heck did I become like knees over toes guy, right? Like, why would that matter to me so much? So number one, I remember by age 12, like I was already dreading going downstairs. I remember a pretty horrifying moment where I was realizing that there was a fire alarm. And I was like,

if this was a real fire, I'd probably be the first one to die because I couldn't get warmed up quickly the way others could. My knees were already that bad by age 12. And it's only because I'm extremely obsessive. And I wanted to make the NBA and was like way overdoing it on plyometrics, starting at like 9, 10, 11. I was just destroying my knees. That's all. It's nothing crazy. And I hadn't hit puberty yet. Then I hit puberty. If you go through your entire puberty with like nasty chronic knee pain, your muscles aren't going to form right. Like I was avoiding putting pressures on the right areas. Then now I wind up like, you know, in my teens, really bad knee pain, trying to go to different trainers.

And I was like strictly coached, like, do not let your knees over your toes. You know what I mean? That was the position that hurt, right? It was like anything knees over toes hurt like crazy. So we just avoided that. So, well, whatever would get developed from that didn't develop. So then I had like a full blood injury surgery, try to come back from that still following like strictly no knees over toes, try to get back playing basketball. Boom. Now I blow out the other knee. That is the foundation that set me up for extreme success with knees because I was basically like the worst knee guy. And one of my knees was like a surgical mess. It has partially artificial kneecap, meniscus transplant, quad tendon repair. So the stiffness was like unimaginable. And then the other knee, now that I blew out the other knee had torn ligaments, but I didn't have surgery on

that. So like that was like my starting point of my knees over toes journey. One knee crazy stiff, the other knee crazy loose from torn ligaments that I never ended up having surgery on. And throughout that entire process, I had never trained knees over toes. So you could see because of all that shit, I kind of had to start from ground zero. Yeah. Or even worse. Yeah. Ground negative zero. I still thought I was going to somehow be a basketball player after all that with zero recruitment out of high school. Like no one ever was like, yeah, like we want you to look at coming to our school for basketball. Like I, so all that occurred and I was still delusional enough to think I was going to get like a college basketball scholarship. So that was, so I couldn't just. So that, that was driving you. You were like, I can't give up. I got, I have to figure out some

way to make these knees knee again. Exactly. So things never would have been as bad if I wasn't driving myself into the ground ground trying to play basketball. Like if I was just a more conservative person, things never could have been that bad that soon. You know, now for other people, things do get that bad. They're usually in their 40s, 50s, 60s by the time things are as bad as they were for me when I was 19. when I was 19, you know? So it took all those factors and still being, you know, delusional enough to think that I was going to be a basketball player, which means I have to go out and do things like dunk, which I had never even, at this point, I was, had never grabbed a rim, which is a lot easier than dunking. I think I can even grab the rim. I'm sure I've never tried to jump. You're warmed up. I promise you

could grab the rim. So I had never grabbed the rim, zero recruitment, all this knee stuff and thought I was going to play. So that means I had to like, as I say, like either I was going to fail miserably or I was going to figure some shit out. And lucky enough, I figured some shit out. And believe it or not, a couple of years later, I was getting full ride college basketball scholarships, played two years at a school, then actually got offered a full ride division one scholarship at age 23, which you're not supposed to get one that late. The NCAA actually flagged it for me being too old, believe it or not. So you were going to pursue it and then it got taken away because of age?

That's right. I was too many years removed from high school. And it's not a common occurrence. Like no one, usually like either you're good enough to get some recruitment or not. Usually someone doesn't just like make that change at such a late age. So my options were continue staying at smaller collegiate schools where they don't have such strict rules or get a lawyer and try to fight the NCAA's decision, which the school, Boston University, they thought I could fight it and still play. But everything I had been through to that point, I was like, honestly, I am 23. I need to get the show on the road professionally. And I started training people right then and there,

and I'm turning 30 next month. And that's all I've done really since the day that I took it as a sign. I have something that can help people. I need to 30 next month. And that's all I've done really since the day that, you know, I took it as a sign, like I have something that can help people. I need to start helping people. Like, so I'm thrilled that it didn't work out and have me keep playing. And who knows, maybe I would have just been playing professionally somewhere,

you know, maybe in Europe or something like that right now. I've even been offered contracts to play in Europe, but I took those signs as like, yeah, I'm a lot more valuable to people by being a trainer than by, you know, pursuing like my own career. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, it sounds kind of silly considering the amount of success that you've had and that you will continue to have that it was

kind of quote unquote selfless. But I'm sure at the time there was a little bit of that in it because a part of you I'm sure was thinking, hey, it little bit of that in it because a part of you, I'm sure, was thinking, hey, it would be fun to go over and play basketball in Europe versus doing what you were doing in the beginning, which like anything you started or like most people in most things, you start at the bottom and you have to work your way up. In the beginning, nobody cares what you're doing and nobody cares what you say, what you want to do or can do. You have to prove it. And what you have done now, obviously there's a lot of reasons now, personal reasons to continue what you're doing, but it was different in the beginning, I'm sure. Oh yeah. Very. I mean, I didn't being a

trainer who wanted to like help people with their needs. Like it was never, it was never part of the thought process that I would wind up with a lot of followers or anything like that. You know what I mean? Like it was, I don't think it ever occurred to me realistically that that could like be a big thing, but as I'm sure you can relate, like you hit a certain point where you're like, shit, I need to get this. You know, when you started publishing your books or whatever, for me, there was a point where it was like, I actually really have a responsibility to get this data out there. And so that's when it was time for me to like, really try to like use like realize like, I actually need to like go on social media and like, try to get more data out there. And that was about three years ago. And so as crazy as it sounded at the time, my goal was to just bust the myth of no knees over toes. And so I was like,

I'm going to be the knees over toes guy. My wife thought it was like pretty lame, you know, but I think only recently does she not think it's actually she's is it still lame or now she's starting to finally get over it. She says, OK, she still laughs at my knees over toes guy name. But that was the thing. Like, I can be happy and go to sleep well at night if I know that I'm trying to at least educate people on that myth. So that was it. Knees over toes guy. I thought it was good marketing. I think a lot of what you've done

is good marketing. Even if you haven't realized, even if you couldn't say, oh, well, it was because of this principle that I read in this book. I mean, and again, I'm not, you may have read a lot of marketing books and a lot of the things, a lot of the decisions you've made may have been deliberate, but take that point in particular. I liked it from a branding perspective because it's one clear concept and it's controversial. It's contrarian too, because a lot of, it's not just athletes, but also weightlifters have been hearing for a long time that your knees cannot go past your toes when you're doing any sort of lower body training whatsoever. And if they do, you're going to mess your knees up. And so it gets people's attention. If we liken it to in the diet

space, I'm not a proponent of the carnivore diet. Like if you need to do an elimination diet, because you have a lot of, let's say GI issues, and you don't know what the problem is, that makes sense to me. Start with something that is well tolerated by most people, meat, and then start reintroducing foods to find out what's causing the problem. But as far as that's all you do is eat meat for the rest of your life, I don't think it's a very smart decision, but it's a good marketing play though. It'd be like the carnivore guy. Again, it's something that is very unusual and it's controversial because like, wait a minute, you're saying I shouldn't eat vegetables. Not only that I that I don't have to, but I shouldn't. So anyway, again, I think that you've made a lot of smart marketing decisions, maybe just following your intuition. But I think the knees over toes guy thing was one of them. I think that there's no way that my pages would be this big, this fast, if it wasn't for this knees over toes guy name. And also the focus though, because you made it clear like, okay, that's your name and

that's what you're going to focus on. And then it's not just focusing on quote unquote knees over toes, but it's going to be knee related things. And there is this kind of interesting entry point of training knees over toes, right? For me, I really was passionate that I had a lot of knowledge to offer there. So I figured I was looking at it like if I'm taking a gamble at just trying to make a difference, I should at least tackle the most important issue to me. So I think for a lot of sports training, you get into these kind of generic

names, elite strength and condition, nothing against that. But like if I was just elite strength and conditioning or something like that or whatever, or just, yeah, elite knee guy, it doesn't, doesn't work. Yeah. But like knees over toes guy, it's like, what the fuck is that? And it's because it's the knees over toes. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about, is that? And it's because it's the knees over toes. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about, I mean, it's your personal rehabilitation of your knees, I'm sure has informed a lot of the programs that you've put together and how you've helped other people. So we can probably talk about. We can take it really step by step. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to go to this knees over toes point as well. We're going to go over the nitty gritty of knees over toes, like everything you need to

know about knees over toes. So your knees are all screwed up and you're like, I still want to play professional basketball. I need to fix my knees. Exactly. So the first thing that started changing that for me, because I knew my knees really well, I had quote unquote, you know, tried everything. And by everything that usually means massages, foam rollers, stretching, painkillers, those kind of things is what people are normally thinking of. Well, the first thing actually started changing it for me was putting my car in neutral and putting my ass against the bumper and pushing it backwards every fucking day to the point that my quads actually got like, you know, a little bit of a pump into that lower quad for like the first time

ever. Now, the thing about walking backwards, and if we look at walking backwards, whether you're towing a sled backwards or just walking backwards, if you stand there, like if anyone listening to this stands sideways in a mirror and goes to take their first step backwards, you realize that your knee is over your toes. Walking backwards is just a very rudimentary test of knees over toes. And when tested in elderly, it's actually been proven to be an effective screening process for falling alone, just by testing old people walking backwards, better. They can walk backwards, less chance they have of falling, which is actually one of the leading causes of death and hospitalization in elderly. It's not like falling is not a joke.

Like it's a big deal. We don't think about that every day, but falling is a huge deal. So if that same concept is preventing elderly from falling, maybe it could help me land from a fricking jump or something like that. And so in my system, that is the first step walk backwards for 10 minutes. Now, as things go, we want to start towing a sled continuously for five minutes, which is, I think, still underrated. This is why I work hard on social media. I should at least work until this stuff's overrated rather than leave some of this stuff underrated because of the amount of people who have gotten out of pain just from going backwards. So that's knees over toes. And that's why I'm a knees over toes guy, because I'm not trying to make it something extreme. And if we look you know, in a, an era of bodybuilding

where drugs were part of the competition at that point, that's not exactly accessible for people. If that is what they see with knees over toes, where yes, the majority of people trying any of those movements probably would, you know, get some degree of injury from trying them. You see what I mean? So knees over toes got this just sort of extremist thing. And my thing is like, look, if all you ever learned from me was walking backward with a sled for five minutes and getting a nice quad pump before, you know, you started your leg session, if you're somebody whose joints usually, you know, prevent them from getting good, you know, mind muscle connection, like I'm literally okay. If that was my career, I, you know, at times I was like, had even thought about simplifying even more, but as it turns out, people are willing

to spend some time learning it, but that's the foundation, just the concept of going backwards. That's the foundation. And a lot of people interested in building muscle and stuff have definitely commented that, you know, getting that in regularly helped them get over some of that tendonitis and stuff like that. So that was the first thing I did that really changed things, not extreme at all. Interesting. And I like how accessible it is. The simpler, the better. And the less stuff it requires, the better. Because of course, that means that it's something that most people can actually do and will actually do. Exactly.

And so if we think about that as a style of exercise, just the concept of going backwards, obviously just walking backwards alone might not get it done for someone who needs to play basketball, but maybe that give excellent wins for your grandmother or, you know, I have a lot of, you know, elderly clients for this reason and walking backwards alone is solid. But if you could walk backwards, you could drag like one pound, you know, two pounds, like it's still the same constant. Like, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no such thing as someone who just, oh, I can't get stronger. It's not how the human body works. Like it's capable of adapting.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are quite a few case studies out there of people 70, 80 years old, even, who were able to gain quite a bit of muscle and strength considering their age. And they had just started at that age. They had never touched a weight or machine in their entire lives. All the newbie gains. Yeah, still the newbie gains at 70 years old. I mean, of course, it's not the same, but the numbers, the exact numbers don't come back to me. But I just remember that it was considerable. It wasn't, oh, they worked three months

to gain two pounds of muscle and increase their strength by 5%. No, it's pretty considerable. I mean, and even any degree at a time when for most athletes, we actually have an interesting aging process just because of our sport beating us down. It's almost like our sport is kind of mimicking the aging process on whatever those joints are that we overuse. And so then same with elderly, you know,

so at a time when most people are going down with their knees, like it's pretty cool to be able to do something to go in the other direction. But the ultimate for me is if people just realize that knees over toes is not something that like, oh, this works for me or like this doesn't work. It's just an area of movement in our body. Like there's no such thing as someone who like, oh, I'm unless there's a structural defect, which is a totally different thing, which is less than 1%. You know what I mean? Like that's a totally different subject and not something I specialize in, but everyone can get a stronger bench. Everyone can get more protected knees. It's not like, it's just physics and just laws of how strength develops. That's all. Yeah. It makes sense. And so where did it go from there?

Putting my car in neutral. You need a partner, not, you need somewhere flat at the sled. So I quickly got like when that was working, I quickly got a sled. They're more obtainable. You can get a drag sled for 50 bucks on Amazon, though you do need some weather outside. So I also figured out that on a treadmill, like most basic treadmills, you can get on it and turn around and stick your butt against the handles and not turn it on and actually just spin the wheel backwards. That actually supplies some resistance to that motion. A lot of people swear by that. They go into LA Fitness, first five minutes, they just spin, we call it reverse deadlift. The treadmill's off and you just spin it backwards. It also builds mental toughness. I think I need to have a study done on the mental toughness side of going in and

everyone's walking forwards. Yeah, And just looking like a fool. Exactly. I actually think there's something to be said for that, for just doing something that makes you stand out, for not conforming in some kind of weird way. Right. It doesn't have to be knees over toes, but I feel like in some way, whether you write something that then people have to read, you created some, right? I feel like we need something in our life where we're doing something that's not conforming, you know, anyways, you're very onto something that could probably be a whole other like creativity podcast,

because I actually think that this backward walking concept is actually what made my marketing creativity come to light. Like every day, I'm just like having to put something out there. That's not what is told of me, you know, anyways. So then I was trying stuff that was too hard. What I really wanted is I could see that like, okay, the opposite of like what I had been brought up and done is when you see like one of these gold medal Olympic weightlifters and you look at them in like the bottom of like a squat or something. And it's just like unbelievable. You know what I mean? Their knee is like way over their toes, full bend, crazy mobility. Right. And these guys are doing

it all the time. So they're obviously not like in extreme pain doing it. Not to mention they're doing it for blood. If they're okay doing that, those are some pretty bulletproof knees. Those are true 10 RPE all out max effort lifts that you're seeing. Right. They're not trying to even do it for health. And even them, if you look at the sport, they actually have one of the lowest knee injury rates compared to like a sport like I play, like basketball. Right. So, and like no one in basketball can do that. So it's got, so to me, it was like, if I can't play basketball, because I'm so jacked up, but even all my friends playing basketball have like some degree of knee pain, like the opposite of us is like the Chinese Olympic weightlifting team,

I've spent considerable time studying, for example, that's like the opposite of us. So my whole mission became like, what if I could do that shit pain free, basketball would probably become easy. And sure enough, that's exactly what's occurred. I've been able to compete now over a thousand times without knee pain playing basketball. My vertical jump has continued to skyrocket, which to put it really simply, if your knees never hurt and you just practice jumping, you're on a good track to jump higher. Jumping high is actually a simpler subject than people realize. Like you have the relative strength involved. If your knee hurts, you're not going to be able to even like go express your force. And you don't get good at jumping from one fancy workout. The best jumpers in the world have jumped thousands and thousands

and thousands of times. So my jump transformation simply came from building knees that never hurt and then studying the art of jumping and practicing jumping. It wasn't from any fancy jumping drills anyways. So if we look at walking backwards, that is nice, but that sure as hell is not that, you know, perfect, unbelievable, deep knee bend. Yeah. It's not going to get you to the promised land. So this is what my career has been devoted to is actually turning that into a step-by-step process. So the next thing, if we look at backward walking, and if we look at that positioning, the next thing up from there would basically be doing reverse step-ups. So step-ups are a well-known strength exercise. Yeah. Yeah. A good kind of beginner body weight type of deal. That's how it's usually used. And then people

load step-ups. The nature of a normal step- up, I don't think there's that much good like eccentric components. So it's not like bodybuilders have found that like step ups are like, you know, the holy grail of leg mass. They're not, they're still not a common one, but I mean, most people would be familiar with step ups. So again, you would commonly find that for talking resistance or strength training, you'd probably mostly find them in beginner programs, just for people who need to build a basic foundation of strength so they can start loading other exercises. You know, that's exactly right. And so a reverse step up is almost like if you just imagine like going downstairs, only like having to control that motion and go back up.

And so in my system, like I want people just as I want people to be able to walk backwards pain free. I would like people to be able to do reverse step-ups on a six-inch box. Like that's not asking for too much. And even some physiotherapy studies have proven that to help regenerate the patellar tendon. So it's a very simple exercise, but I had to realize that even that quality scales. So if I want to get grandma able to go down steps without pain, right? I was in pain at 12.

For people with knee pain, that could happen at any time in their lives. But if you can't go downstairs without pain, that's not a good sign. Well, in any exercise, you have range of motion and you have the amount of resistance. So if you hold on to something, you can actually reduce the amount of resistance on a reverse step up from less than your own weight. It's still resistance. It's just less resistance than your own weight. And you could even shorten the step from six inches and six inches is not that high. Like if you're in a common gym and you see those aerobic steppers,

the little squares add about two inches. And then the top box adds about four inches. So like, we're only talking about a square on each side and then put the stacker on top. So that's obviously, you know, that's an ability we want to have for sport and for life. Again, the difference is like my mom does them and I'm happy with her doing them with her own body weight. For me, I actually turned this into a strength exercise and it helps me jump higher. It's approximating those exact angles. Every 40 vertical jump in NFL combine history had knees over toes, the powers from the hips. You watch the person go down. The majority of the power is coming from that posterior chain, but then the knee dips over the toe to be able to make that force go up again, kind of like with the backward walking and comparing that to pulling a sled. Like you could take the best athlete in

the world. And if you challenge them with enough weight and make them go fast enough backwards for five minutes, they probably will have like the burn of a lifetime. Now it's not much for muscle growth because there's no eccentric component, but the point is just that the same exercise that a grandma could do could make Usain Bolt want to vomit. You know, that's the idea is it's just a category of exercise. So going backwards is a category of exercise and then reverse step ups is a category of exercise. And we do them with the foot flat, which kind of works on that ankle mobility. We do them with a slant board, which is then actually much tougher on the quads. Like that one might be, it's sad that slant boards aren't more common, but if you look at the

logistics of it, a slant board is a very affordable thing to make. That would be a nice one to see in more gyms. It would be a very simple accessory exercise, kind of in the family of leg extensions. But you get to work one side, you know, each time you get really nice eccentric load. And it's actually proven for the patellar tendons, particularly if we add that slant board. So we like to work with a flat foot first just to like get the balance down. It's not a tough exercise. Now, when you are on the slam board, it actually becomes a much, you really feel the quads recruiting. And then the last step of that is actually to remove the slam board. So that means like you're actually trying to lift your heel and balanced on the ball of your foot

when you do the reverse step up. I know we're on a pot. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, of course. Yeah. I see in my mind's eye, exactly what you're talking about. You're just reproducing the foot position, but now you have to with isometric tension produce it. Yeah. So if you progress from backward walking to a flat footed step up to a slant board, step up to then removing the slant board and having to go onto the ball of your foot, you can, you know, someone who maybe thinks, well, I'm just doomed to weak knees and not being able to go down steps without pain. Well, this is why these like rave successes come in. It's not from something wild. It's from people actually following strength training over a considerable amount of time to actually get good at these

motions, not working through pain, but, but assessing their level of range and how much load they can handle. Now, from a muscle perspective, I think only that slant board one would relate. The flat footed one is more ankle mobility. And then the one when you remove the slant board is definitely more in the athletic kind of department balance foot strength. Like it's not, you know, I'm at least just trying to put the context because I know a lot of your listeners want to know like maybe how they would apply this in their routine. You know what I mean? So I'm not trying to make someone think they have

to do like every one of these, but just like you actually put what's in your products, you know, I have the same concept. I'd rather just explain exactly how the system works. So that's where we're at so far. Now you could imagine someone who could do that would definitely have a better chance of being more stable and pain-free on the full squat. But it's not like you can just go from like reverse step-ups to now full squats. There could be a disconnect there for a lot of people. And again, there's a big difference between someone who's like already generally healthy. And that's why I don't even, when I count my success stories, I'm not counting the guy who's like, damn, I tried that exercise and then I hit a new PR after I feel great. Like, no, because that means you were actually like

pretty damn healthy and you just had a very niggling little tendon thing that just needed some blood flow. Yeah. Yeah. And it finally felt good. And then your body allowed you to push a bit harder. I used that. Then I would actually be a hypocrite of my own system. Because the whole idea is that it's not from something mythical going on. It's actually from just following strength training, which does not occur instantly. It occurs over time of tear down muscle to a degree that you can recover from and come back stronger. And some of these motions, there is load on the tendon, which the tendon has anabolic properties, not like not

to the degree of muscle does. But I think that's where some of the I think that's where some of the confusion can come in is that we can't see it working. You know, like you can't see your patellar tendons, you can see a pump, you know what I mean? And if we had like, you know, maybe some way of measuring that everyone might have a lot better tendon health if they knew like what their tendons looked like or something, you know, it's not practical. So I had to live this with myself and coaching just bazillions of people. I mean, dude, I didn't make any money as a trainer when I was training people in person. I didn't make money because I just wanted to train everyone. I charged like 15 bucks a session. You can't make any money as a trainer. When I was training people in person, I didn't make money because I just wanted to train everyone.

I charged like 15 bucks a session. You can't make any money as a personal trainer if you charge like $15 an hour. Anyways, business tip for personal trainers, charge more than $15 an hour. But for me, the people who like, if someone walked in my gym and had knee pain, like I just wasn't gonna turn them down.

Anyways, it's another story for another day. The bridge. So what's the bridge between the reverse step up and the full bend squat is a full bend squat one side at a time. Now, okay. Does that mean pistol squats or this or that? And what I've found is that it's an Astrograph style split squat. So that means you're in a split squat position, but then you're lowering the front hamstring all the way down.

If you took a screenshot from the side, it would look identical to that Olympic gold medalist weight lifter in the bottom position. And most people will have to elevate the front foot because it takes a lot of mobility to do that. Like it's a little unclear because I was like testing, testing, but I always kept track of things. And it does seem like it took me about, about two years to have the mobility to do that on flat ground. Again, someone's seeing that and just trying that, like that's not where the gains come from. Again, there's range of motion and there's load where I started really making gains was by elevating the front foot and by using assistance. So again, like negative of my own

weight, but getting that full hamstring over the calf. Weightlifting shoes would be good for that. Just throwing that out there. Cause you have that elevated heel and you have that wide stable base. That's a hundred percent right. To the point that I actually started coaching it, that we actually don't even try to get the heel down at first, right?

So like if you're trying to do a split squat with your heel down, you might not ever really get your leg through a full range of motion because the ankle mobility is in the way. So an Olympic weightlifting shoe would help someone towards that purpose. So we actually first coach it that you just let your heel up. And if you look back through the history books, they used to do squats like

that. And that's super impressive that guys used to do squats and just like let their heels off the ground. You know what I'm talking about? Where they like balance on the balls of their feet. So I never try to get to that. We find that like on a split squat, it's a lot easier to balance letting your heel come up on it than like on a double leg squat with weight or something like that. So when we train this with just body weight or negative body weight, we let the heel come up because we're just trying to get that full leg range of motion. And now you put in, you know, my style, someone could progress as fast as they want. But again, I say exactly what I do. So I try to have people do this three times a week for 12 weeks. So three times a week for 12 weeks at your level, getting that full knee bend, letting your heel come up. Then after that, now we start thinking

about whether to add load and try to work that heel towards flat because to get to that ankle mobility. So for some people, my mom can do it flat ground without weight. Now, what I find is the stronger someone is, the more likely it is that they would actually have to add weight to get to that mobility. Like most strong guys would never get to a flat ground split squat if they think they can just do it with their body weight alone. Like it's probably not enough load to even like signal to their body to pull into that kind of a depth. So again, it's not like there's any pressure on it, but we're trying to use the deepest range

of motion that we can without pain. And we're trying to use the weight that gives us the best range of motion. If you go too heavy, you'll shorten up. Like you won't go all the way down. If you go too light, it won't pull you that far down. So there's my system in a nutshell. And people start to find as they get better and better into that ass to grass split squat position, which not surprisingly comes from Olympic weightlifting in the sixties, there was lifters who would actually catch their Olympic lifts in that ass to grass split squat, which is just remarkable. And well, you know, you gradually put those legs together and it's like, oh shit, squatting felt like crap

for the last 10 years of my life. Now it actually feels great. Everyone is gonna start out somewhere different. There's no pressure. And even once we do double-legged squats, we actually still elevate our heels just because it keeps it simple for everyone. It allows people generally,

like if you look at the mechanics of strength training, if you elevate your heels on a squat, you're gonna get mechanics of strength training, if you elevate your heels on a squat, you're going to get less posterior chain development more. It's harder on the legs. Yeah. It's harder on the quads in particular, but I mean, the squad is primarily a quads exercise anyway. I don't think you're going to be losing much. And again, there's a reason why so many successful weightlifters and that, that ranges from just everyday lifestyle bodybuilders like me who have done good things with their physiques to high-level weightlifters all say that a good pair of squat shoes is a worthwhile investment. It just makes your squatting more stable and more comfortable and more productive. Yep. And so now my specialty is the ultra-weak need, right? So we actually

do that exact same concept of the Olympic weightlifting shoe, only we use a slant board. So the balls of the feet are on the floor and then the heels are up, like maybe double what an Olympic weightlifting shoe would lift your heel, right? So it's the same concept. And instead of jumping into a bar, we do it goblet style, like with a dumbbell in front and the dumbbell in front allows me to look at someone and see if the legs are really handling it. Right. Cause like if you go down, so if you elevate your heels on a slant board, balls of feet on the floor, you could stand all the way on the board. I, for most of us, we'd like to have our toes, like something feels right about having the toes

still on the floor. But if you drop down to the bottom of a squat, like I can look at your elbows. Are you having to flare them straight out to the side? Are they going down in between your legs? Which any of those things are fine, but it definitely would mean I'm not going to increase the weight because so I'm going to have someone increase the load of the dumbbell when they can go to the rock bottom of that squat with the elbows still above the thigh, which would bring the torso more vertical and would push the knees farther over the toes. So it's not about putting someone into a riskier position. It's more like having them start over with whatever weight they can truly handle with their legs.

So it's not a sexy process. And again, if someone was wanting to immediately apply some of this stuff, you would think of this perhaps as a finisher after for someone who barbell squats. Yeah, you wouldn't think to include that as a part of your lower body workout, so to speak. This would be a, if you do a good set of like one to three sets, when we do start barbell squatting, which is optional in my system, but like for athletes, like that's a very proven exercise, right? So the final stage of my system is where I do let people, you know, squat and deadlift with a bar. And we use

that as a finisher one to three sets. We still use that dumbbell, dumbbell squat as a finisher one to three sets of 20 reps. So there's probably some research out there of another that would show that maybe a back off like higher rep finisher set. And in this case, it would allow you to kind of, I think it could provide a little fun for someone rather than saying, okay, now do a set of 20 barbell back squats. You know, it could maybe give them a little bit of a different stimulus, elevate the heels a little bit more and, you know, hold the dumbbell and pump out 20 reps. I don't know what you would going for, I don't think that's inappropriate at all. I mean, technically speaking, you could say the muscle hypertrophy, which is the more of what you're going for here, that range is anywhere from probably six reps to 20 or maybe even more. You get beyond that and becomes a bit impractical, particularly with any exercise that you're going to do as part of a strength workout, strictly strength or bodybuilding. I mean, even sets of 20, like try to do as part of a strength workout, strictly strength or bodybuilding. I mean, even sets of 20, like try to do a set of 20 with really any exercise that you find in just a

traditional strength training. Like, yeah, go do a set of 20 barbell squats and close to muscle failure and see how you feel. See if you want to do that again. Not to mention, I've seen that can actually be kind of unsafe sometimes, but. Oh, I agree. I agree. Like sets of 20 on the squat or on the deadlift in particular, I just wouldn't do that. I agree. Like sets of 20 on the squatter on the deadlift in particular, I just wouldn't do that. I mean, the risk to reward it. A lot of meat, you know, a lot of things occur when you. Unless the weight was like really sub max, right? If it's, you know, 40% of my one RM and I'm just doing it to get a feel for the, maybe to groove in good movement patterns and just get a feel for the weight moving quickly and just add a little bit of extra. I could see that, but I still don't think that would give much stimulus. And that's

where like, say for you, say you did this after a squat workout, it's just like a 20 rep pump finisher. What occurs is that it doesn't require a ton of weight to hold, but because of that, like upright torso nature, as the set goes, you can actually like kind of force harder loading of the quads, if that makes sense. Like maybe so like for weaker need people at first, what do we want to do? Like we want to hunch over and like not let our knees go that far forward. Right. So like, as the set of 20 goes, as that pump comes in, depending on like how erect you hold yourself, you can actually like, you know, get a really crush yourself.

And some people will actually have like soreness in their VMO for the first time. That can be like a tougher area to get soreness into in my own, you know, what have I observed? I've noticed that I've started to get some, like some VMO veins popping out when I lift, which is something that with the powerlifting mentality, which is how you, that's how you get stronger. Like that's how we move the needle. So again, I'm only talking here about primarily helping the weak need. You ever see someone squat and you can tell like, they just don't trust their knees at all. That's what I'm here for is the weak knee. And so using that slant board and really like working on being able to get

that positioning that these strong need dudes can. And now these Olympic weightlifters, they're doing it with a ton of weight for a weak knee basketball player though. Shit. 25% of your body weight for 20 reps for like a weak knee basketball player can change their fricking life. So it's not like this end all be all it's used to build, you know, to being able to trust your knees to perhaps getting, you know, some stimulation that you might not get from, you know, if you've never really gotten that kind of a, of a torso angle, but that's not like how you jack up your squat. But for someone who struggles with their knees, I kid you not, I had a guy squat a thousand pounds this

weekend. So he's a power lifter, but the knee pain's always there, right? He uses that ATG split squat as accessory to his power lifting squat. He just squatted a thousand. And when I say a thousand, I'm not saying like he DM'd it to me. I'm saying like it's on the internet. If anyone knows of someone who squatted a thousand, then you know, I'm talking about, he just squatted a thousand pounds at 23 years old. He's he could, could become the top power lifter in the world. Who is it? People want to know now. I might as well just say his name. He's a nice guy and fuck it. Now you can follow him. It gets weird when talking about clients, right? Because as the coach, so let's say I'm 1% of this guy, but if knee pain was there, his name's Andrew House.

He has the greatest powerlifting name. I think having the last name house, I mean, come on. And so his, his social media is at Das powerhouse, D A S P O W E R H A U S E Andrew house, H A U S E anyways. Yeah, so you can see his form. Like it's two posts ago, if you look on Instagram and you can see he actually like hit powerlifting depth with 1,006 pounds. And if someone wants, I recommend any other coaches. So this guy is a powerlifting coach

that I love recommending good people who take their coaching seriously. And he says without those atg split squats wouldn't be able to do this shit pain-free that's great i'm pulling it up i'm listening i i want to see this so what i'm hearing correct me if i'm wrong is it seems like one of the key if not the key principle that you're applying here is specificity okay Okay. We want to make this certain part of the body stronger and more resistant to injury. And so how do I target that area with exercises? And the barbell back squat is not good for targeting your knees or strengthening the tendons, the patellar tendon. And it's great

for blowing up your quads and your know your glutes and and then that of course i mean that just makes sense you don't need to be a scientist or even a fitness expert to understand why that makes sense it's just commonsensical you want to get good at really anything then you want to train that very specifically you don't want to train more generally and then try to transfer that over to, I mean, that's a basic principle of training for sports too, right? Is you have to practice in as specifically as you can for what you're trying to do, right? If you want a better jump shot or if you want to, dude, if you want to hit a golf ball, well, like, I'm sorry, you can't just like think that you can do a general work. Like you're going to have to go figure that sport out. So for someone struggling with their knees, like there is a technology of like how your knees work and what muscles and tendons are

involved and how to actually get some stimulus into those without killing yourself off. So I actually, before I forget, cause I made sure to say like how to regress every quality we've talked about so far. Right. And so it's the same with this heels elevated squat, like someone with knee pain, the idea of elevating their heels and going all the way down would probably hurt them to think about. But we do this in five levels. And the lowest level is when you have a high amount of, of assistance, meaning like, if you imagine that if you had two basic chairs, and you actually held the backs of those chairs, one on each side, you'd be able to assist yourself like almost through the whole range. Now imagine turning the chairs around so that you only get to use the seat of the chair. Does that make sense? It's a push off. Now you

have to handle your weight most of the way down. And then you just get a boost in the bottom position, which then level three would be not touching the chairs with your hands. Level four would then actually be holding the dumbbell in front. And again, since I'm just trying to stay in my lane, like I'm not trying to teach someone how to build the most. I'm not trying to teach someone how to drive up a squad or if I only live this shit, that's going to force me to be really good at this shit. So level five is actually holding with straight arms, which holds some strictness, holding the weight behind your back. Now we're talking like most people would be like in extreme knee pain, elevating their heels,

holding a weight behind their back and then trying to drop rock bottom. Well, fuck, I was Mr. Weak knee guy. And now that shit feels like butter. And I have over a 40 inch vertical. Like it's not rocket science. I put in the damn work.

But if you look at me like, yeah, that's great. It doesn't mean I'm going to go win a powerlifting competition or be able to compete at all with an Olympic weightlifter. It just means I've used strength principles applied to what the most bulletproof knees can do. And I've gotten partially the way there. And I happen to have played basketball my whole life. So I have very good body awareness for jumping. So now that gives me a really good marketing tool because when you see someone dunk on a 10 foot rim, it's like, well, shit, this six foot tall dude dunking, like that's some decent athleticism. You know what I mean? I don't have decent powerlifting or Olympic weightlifting numbers. Yeah. And I'm sure it has sex appeal too. I'm sure. I mean, I never played basketball,

but for people who do play basketball, who can't dunk, there's probably, again, a bit of that flashiness to it that makes them pay attention to what you're doing right right because you can't go out and like dunk every day and shit like you can't fake that you can see the person's knees you can see that jump you can see the landing and and i've made it a point to get statements from past coaches because like it would be hard for someone to believe what a shitty athlete i was before you know and it was only because i was held back with my knees so now when people see like damn dude, like was nowhere near dunking naturally. Now he's like pummeling the rim with dunks. It gives people hope, you know, but within that hope, there you

go. Like there's a route, like you have to, now it's just going to be up to you of where you're at now, how much you put in the work. Do you actually follow the work precisely? This is like a holy thing, like your form, your focus, like the things you think about. It's the same thing with these exercises. These aren't things you just go on with and try to get like a one day result. These are tools in your toolbox. If you're someone with bad knees and it's totally up to you, like how sharp do you want to make? Like, this is a very personal thing of like, how serious are you about it? How sharp are you going to make those tools? How honestly are you going to train with yourself and the loads that you're

using? And then that's my system. And then everything else is actually just to like support that meaning like we can't work only the quad and not the hamstring. We can't work only the knees and not the hips or, you know what I mean? So everything else is support to what I just said. Walk backwards is the foundation. Reverse step-ups is the second point, which is harder than walking backwards. The ATG split squat is harder than the step up. But again, it still regresses because you can use assistance, elevate your front foot, and then it heals up all the way down. Squat is like our king exercise.

But for my intents and purposes, I'm still just talking about like about the posture and how pain free you can do it and not actually speaking of that. Everything I do would still be considered accessory work for an actual, you know, Olympic weightlifter or powerlifter. No, it makes sense. There's certainly a method to the madness, so to speak. And it's interesting because we come back to just thinking about it from a marketing perspective, where I see videos of you doing unconventional things. And that's great marketing because it catches, it stops people from scrolling and they are like, what is this guy doing? But then when you can explain, this is why I'm doing

this. And this is what we're looking to achieve. And of course, then you have a ton of social proof now. And you can say, look, this is how it has helped all of these other people. It's just a really good marketing package. And it sounds like it didn't come together with that in mind, but it is certainly one of the reasons why you're doing as well as you are. It would be different if the movements were more familiar. If it was like, oh yeah, okay, what you do is you take the barbell back squat and you make this slight little tweak to it. it wouldn't have the same stickiness. The fact that, again, it's very unusual, the types of things that you're recommending for

your average fitness person or average athlete who's very used to just doing certain types of exercises a certain type of way, that is, again, it's just very good marketing. And it's great that it also is, it's good training and it actually gets real results. It's not just a gimmick that you can use to get people's money until they realize that it's just a gimmick and then they move on. When I see stuff that is contrary, especially in fitness, I mentioned the carnivore diet, for example. Yeah, good marketing, but mostly just bullshit. Don't even get me started on proprietary blends. Yeah, we're going to go there in a minute. But it's just, again, for anybody listening,

I think it's a good rule of thumb to put your guard up when somebody comes along with very unconventional, contrarian advice about, in fitness, for sure, whether it's diet, whether it's training, whether it's supplementation doesn't mean that they're full of shit, but you should be wary because that's a tried and true marketing tactic. It's just an easy way to get people to pay attention to what you have to say. And if you also then are a decent salesperson, you can get them to give you money. Yeah. And you have to grab tension one way or another. Yeah. And that's where my marketing is evolving. It's like, if someone actually takes a look at my Instagram or my YouTube over the last few months, I mean, they're just going to see endless

posts where I quite literally show exactly what I've talked about today. And I show how here's the lowest, but that's the trick of it. It's like, if I only did that, it would be crickets. So the video might start with a slam dunk or something, you know, like it's very tricky. Like how do you get people like on Tik TOK, I'll post something like, you know, catchy YouTube, at least gives me a little bit more time to like explain something. Right. Tik TOK. I mean, you must have what two seconds tiktok is fast right and what's funny is that i'll post something which is me landing into some crazy position or whatever and it'll get a million views or whatever like i went and checked the temperature of the pool just by like reaching my knees into the you know like doing like a full sissy squat yeah 2.7

million views but then it's a bunch of people commenting, well, why don't you show us how to improve? It's like, yeah, I did that in my last 10 posts and you didn't fucking click on it. I'm not kidding. You'll get 5,000 views on the most helpful thing you ever took the time to work to and post. And then you'll get a million views on something, which is just... Yeah, it's trying to strike that balance. And that's something that you have to get good at if you're going to do well on social media. And it's something I'm not good at. And I probably could be good at it. I think I have enough marketing knowledge. Well, I mean, you succeeded in it. So I don't know if I would put it that way. I mean, you're a writer too. So there's a bunch of different ways to reach people. You have to be...

The pressure is on writing skill, not to mention you look fantastic year round. I'm trying to catch someone's attention who maybe might never come across the idea that they can do something other than take anti-inflammatories for their knee pain. But I would just say that, have I always been a perfect marketer? Absolutely not. But I would bet money that I have more hours of watch time of regressions and such than any other person talking about knees. It's not like I'm doing that and then saying, I'm not going to tell you what I did. I'm doing that. I used to do that to try to get people to sign up. You see what I mean? Like I used to do that. And then it's like, well, how did I get to this? No, no, no.

Now I may still do that, probably using it at the end of the video, not the start or whatever, but I may still do that. And then I'm going to show you exactly what I fricking did. I'm not going to have secrets. I'm not. And it's just, it's a much better way to live when you're not letting the marketing games change. It's also good marketing. Like again, there, uh, who did I first, who first said this? It might've been Frank Kern. I may have picked it up in a book somewhere, but a little, a good piece of marketing advice is when you're selling information, give your best stuff away free because the psychology is hopefully the stuff people are paying for is just as good or is very good. But again, your best, the stuff that most resonates with people that gets you the

most positive feedback, the best techniques that you have, especially the quote-unquote magic bullet techniques, meaning stuff that people can do to get a result right away. It doesn't have to get them to their goal right away, but give that stuff away for free because the psychology is people will, a lot of people are going to like it. Again, if there's a practical element to it, they're going to do something with it and they're going to see an immediate result. And then people are going to like it. Again, if there's a practical element to it, they're going to do something with it and they're going to see an immediate result. And then they're going to think even maybe they don't even think it consciously, but it will be in the back of their mind that, wow, if the free stuff is this good, then

how good is the paid stuff? So that's just another example of good marketing instincts, even though you may not have picked that up studying from a master marketer, you just figured it out by trying things and you noticed that worked better. I appreciate that. And yeah, I haven't read any marketing books or anything like that. And what I do is I actually just make sure, you know, here and there, I'll just chat with my dad, who I would consider, you know, more of a business expert than me. And honestly, just make sure I'm doing things the right way. Make sure that I'm doing things the most ethically

I possibly can. He's like the most ethical guy I know. You know what I mean? But I think because of that, like you said, that is marketing itself. Now, part of it too, I think that like-minded people will resonate. People who aren't bullshitter types trying to swindle people themselves, I think will want to buy. I already explained my system.

Now I need you to help me and all my people listening to this out so that I can send them to this point of the podcast. And now we need to learn about supplements relating to our knees. And on that note, what I was going to say is the only supplements I have taken in the last five years, and I even have evidence in past pictures, videos to prove it is Lugin supplements. And when I saw your supplement, you showed, you know, what was in it. And what's interesting is that that made me want to buy it, even though you would think that hiding the amounts or whatever would make someone want to buy. And obviously that works for a lot of people, right? But for me being someone who believes in, in a more honest approach,

seeing that you said, and so I remember the thing that caught me was how much freaking citrulline you put in your pre-workout. And I'm like, I guarantee no one is putting that shit is not cheap. Cause I used to try to buy these amino acids individually. And so I went with that and I never looked back and I've taken many tubs of pulse. And even though you wouldn't think of that as a joint supplement, I actually think that it helped my whole process because if you have a pre-workout that works, it actually is going to be a lot easier. If you look at my approach to joints, my approach to joints is not avoiding them, but how much can they tolerate? You see what I mean? Training them really exactly. Like I'm actually trying to train my joints through

full range of motion. Well, shit, anything that would actually work as a pre-workout actually, I think would help someone with their knee. So we had tubs of this stuff in my gym. And it wasn't, the idea wasn't to, like, for example, we would be like, okay, this athlete, like you should take this when you do your jump session. You know what I mean? So that, you know, you're able to get into those positions more comfortably, or you should take it on your leg days and not on your upper body.

You know, it's still kind of that specialist approach. So we actually used Legion supplements for a long time. To kind of finish my long spiel here, I intentionally went the last year without taking any supplement of any kind. So I just finished one year of no supplements of any kind. I did this simply just to observe what it's like. Now I've felt fine and training has been good. And I think that if diet and training are good, you shouldn't rely on supplements. However, I want to be the best I can be. You know what I mean? So the fact that I've got these basics in, I have training and diet that works for me. So I want to gain a little bit more lean mass and I want to do what's right for my joints. You know, like that's why not? Like? Why not invest in that? I spent $10,000

on... That's how much one of my nasty knee operation cost me. We didn't have any insurance. That was out of pocket $10,000. I could take a joint supplement the rest of my life and not spend $10,000. So anyways, hopefully that kind of makes the backstory clear that I'm simply coming to the guy that I've trusted, that it's already worked for me. And now in the present and going forward, I want to get on a supplement stack to help me even an extra percent, extra 2%, extra 3%. That matters a big deal to me. I'm running the fastest in my life, jumping the highest in my life, never been more mobile, stronger joints have never felt better, but 1% more is actually a big deal in that universe of sport. Yeah. And I would think you can probably get a little bit more than 1% if you're taking

the right supplements. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. So let's talk specifically for not just knees, but joints in general. My number one recommendation would be fish oil, an omega-3 fatty acid supplement, because when you take enough of it, so if you get up to anywhere probably between three and six grams combined of EPA and DHA per day, then research shows that can lower inflammation levels in the joints in particular. And then there's also, there are a lot of other health benefits associated with maintaining omega-3

sufficiency. You are going to be at a reduced risk of heart disease. You are going to gain muscle faster. That's been shown. You're going to have better cognitive performance. You're going to lose fat faster. You're going to have lower levels of inflammation throughout the body. It can improve mood. It can improve post-workout recovery, specifically reduce muscle soreness after training. And again, to be clear, that's going from not getting enough EPA and DHA, which is most people, if they're not supplementing omega-3s and they're not also eating like several servings of fatty fish per week, they're almost certainly not getting enough EPA and DHA or enough omega-3 fatty acids in their

diet. And a fish oil supplement is just the easiest way to do it. I mean, you could take a krill oil supplement, but those are way to do it. I mean, you could take a krill oil supplement, but those are generally more expensive and there are no added benefits. So I just, that's why I don't sell one. I just don't really see the reason to. If you're vegan, you could take an ALA, but something like a flax, that's common. And that's fine for maintaining basic sufficiency. But the problem is, whereas fish oil contains EPA and DHA, those are really the molecules we want. ALA does not, or a vegan supplement does not. Your body has to convert what's in there into, I believe it's DHA first and then convert DHA and EPA.

And that's an inefficient process. And so fish oil would be number one. Good. And just to cap that off, I will say for anyone listening, I took fish oil through like my journey, like from the muck, you know what I mean? To now like, go ahead and look at it. Like I jump off ladders every fucking day. Like I took fish oil on that journey. And in the last year that I haven't had a supplement, I've intentionally been eating more salmon and able for the first time in my life to have like a little extra money to pay for wild caught salmon. So I don't think most people are eating wild caught salmon, which is going to have more of that EPA DHA. And eating enough. I mean, you have to like fish. A lot of

people don't like fish. I don't even love salmon, to be honest with you. I don't really like fish that much. So putting that number one, and I just wanted anyone listening to know, like, I can't rewind time. The best thing I can do is honestly say exactly what I did, right? That's what I do with my train. I don't, I don't like try something new and be like, try this. It's like, here's exactly what I did. Well, I took fish oil. So, and then as far as allegiance stuff goes, obviously it would be fortify, which is specifically a joint supplement, but let's talk about some of the ingredients because it contains ingredients that are commonly bought as standalones. And that's a theme for a lot of my products and something I've tried to do like with our multivitamin, for example,

is take a good base of a multivitamin, all the essential vitamins and minerals, the things that you need, but then let's add in goodies that people usually buy separately and that have good scientific backing. So then they don't have to buy six. And that most of the land will not put in because it actually- It's just too much money. Or they'll have tiny amounts, right? The citrulline and the pre-workout. Yeah. It's a good example, right? Pulse having eight grams. I mean, that's what you want. I'm so hyped to get back on this. Yeah. That's what you want.

My Instagram pictures are going to be popping. I think just because of how happy I'm going to be to be back on pulse. Yeah. I mean, this is, and what's cool about fortify and this is also cool about fish oil. I mean, I mentioned quite a few of the additional benefits that you get by maintaining omega-3 sufficiency, but what's cool about fortify in particular is it's not just for people who have joint problems. It's also for people who have healthy joints and want to keep them that way. And that's also unusual. And that's where I'm at. Exactly. And that's unusual because most joint supplements are glucosamine, chondroitin, Most joint supplements are glucosamine, chondroitin.

And I mean, that is really actually the base of most. And those are inexpensive ingredients that they, let's just say that the evidence is that the effects are small enough to where I don't even bother including them in Fortify, even though they are very cheap. It's not a budget problem per se. I just don't, they're just not up to this. Those ingredients are not up to the standards that I like to. I did not take glucosamine and chondroitin when I was having success. I did take it when my knees stayed sucking. Like again, it doesn't mean that one supplement makes the difference. I'm just saying I have taken that.

I didn't notice anything to be honest. Yeah. mean, the research says that it may be able to reduce pain a little bit in some people. I still wouldn't stop someone from adding that extra. So like if any of my listeners, I wouldn't stop you from taking an extra, but I didn't take that. And I actually did take fish oil. And ironically, I take a glucosamine

and I believe it's MSM, chondroitin supplement, because it may do a little bit of something to, I don't have knee pain, so that's not why, but there is some research that shows that it may help preserve joint cartilage and it's a small effect, but it's inexpensive. So I'm like, yeah, I'll throw it in. It's not something I'd put in my own product, but I'll take it because I don't mind spending a little bit of extra money on it. It's very affordable. Exactly. Exactly. So coming to Fortify, so we have undenatured type two collagen. That's an ingredient that is, it's very expensive. And again, it's often sold as a

standalone product. You can go search around online. You'll see anywhere from probably 30 to $40 a month is what it would cost you if you just wanted to get a UC2. That's the patented form that you want, undenatured type 2 collagen. And I don't want to go on a long tangent of exactly like, okay, undenatured means it's in its natural state. It hasn't been changed through heat or chemical processing. Type 2 collagen is the type of collagen that is in our joints that the cartilage is made up of. And what's cool is it works almost like a natural vaccine. What I mean is the body, as we get older, there's an autoimmune response that happens to some degree in everybody, but in some people,

it's pretty pronounced where the body attacks joint cartilage. The immune system sees it as something that needs to be destroyed, right? And this leads to arthritis over time. And by supplementing with this type 2, this undenatured type 2 collagen, it needs to be this specific type. Just taking like a collagen protein, for example, won't do it. Just eating jello won't do it. But if you get this undenatured type 2, it actually, research shows that it teaches the immune system to chill out, basically, to stop attacking the cartilage in your joints. So the effects that people report and that have been seen in the literature are reduced inflammation, reduced pain, and even can help with repairing cartilage. So that's one ingredient that is in

Fortify. And another one that a lot of people buy as a standalone is curcumin. And we use a patented form of curcumin that you don't have to combine with black pepper extract because curcumin is not well absorbed. And this is the pigment in curry. It's the stuff that makes it orange. And it's not well absorbed though in the intestines. So you have two options. You combine it with black pepper extract, which is okay. It's okay to do. It's just, it can have negative interactions with certain drugs. And so we went with a more expensive patented form. That's a phospholipid complex. It's called Meriva, Meriva, M-E-R-I-V-A. And there's good research on that ingredient in particular. And what's neat about it is it makes it absorbable and you don't need the black pepper extract. And this curcumin reduces inflammation in the joints. It can relieve

joint pain. It can relieve joint stiffness. It can improve joint mobility. So kind of a no-brainer for everything that we've been talking about. I have quite a few good joint mentors. Like that was one of the smartest things I did is I just got like incredible joint mentors. And one of them absolutely swears by curcumin. And again, I know that he understood what you did. Like you could, it's not like you have to get like some pretty specific sources. I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same thing. Charles Paul, if anyone's wondering who I'm talking, you know, he's, he's one of my just awesome joint mentors and he swore by that. Yeah, a lot of people experience great results with curcumin and the black pepper extract. I mean, that's what we had in Fortify previously.

And it works. We just upgraded to the more expensive as the company has grown. And through economies of scale, I've been able to bring cost of goods down, at least generally trend it down with some products. And so that opens up more money basically where I'm like, oh, okay, now I can switch from the black pepper extract combo, which again works, but I just like that now there are no possible negative drug interactions. And I can't say that, I don't know if we ever heard from a customer who ever had an issue because people who are on medications that can interact negatively with black pepper extract often know that. But anyway,

that's why we went to the patented form. And then there are a few other ingredients that I don't know if we want to run through all of them one by one. I mean, that's enough for me. And I'm going to look into each product I'm taking more as well, just so I understand when people reach out to me for questions, just so anyone knows, I'm not getting anything out of this other than getting more gains myself and being able to refer people to good products. I specifically told your guy who makes the- Mr. Miles. Basically. Yeah. I said, look, I want the best first purchase discount. However it's done, it's just standard stuff and stuff, but I don't want a kickback. So just give me the best first purchase discount, you know, however it's done. It's just standard supplement stuff, but I don't want to kick back. So just give me the best you can do with whatever that

would have been that I would have been getting in a kick back. So I think I may have made the first supplement influencer deal of all time where I don't get a kickback that way. The most interesting, the most interesting deal for sure. The most interesting influence. No, but it's like, this matters to me because if the person gets better result, like I'm just trying to do my fucking job the best I can. And if the person is taking the right things, they're going to get better results out of it. So it's still, it's still self-centered, but my goal is helping people with their needs. Like my philosophy in life is always like, set yourself up with a goal where like the better you do, the more people you help, you know, like

that way you can go hard and you can push hard and you can, you know, you can let your competitive passion go for it. I just don't want someone to think this is like a freaking like advertisement because I'm not seeing a penny of this, if that makes sense. Totally. Totally. And if you ask me, it wouldn't be inappropriate at all for you to make money from it. Now, I think it is noble the way that you've negotiated it and people will appreciate that, but I never, I don't agree with some of the, some of the criticism. People are too sensitive and they're not seeing the big picture that the world is built on exchange. Just today, someone. I would never, I would never ask for

someone to promote Legion for free because I think it's inappropriate. Right. You would never ask for someone to promote Legion for free because I think it's inappropriate. Right. You would never ask for that. And for me, I just understand the world that we're in. And I get attacked for just about anything I do that doesn't seem like, you know, like on social media, a guy with a lot of followers was trying to do one of my exercises, which relies on like this loaded tibialis bar. Right. And so I made a public like I reposted his thing and I was and he was like trying to do one of my exercises, which relies on like this loaded tibialis bar. Right. And so I made a public, like I reposted his thing and I was, and he was like trying to strap it up with

a band. And I was like, dude, send me your shipping address. Like I need to get you a bar. You know, this guy is like over a hundred thousand followers. Well, of course someone comes slamming me in the DMS. You should give it to someone who can't afford it. Like I get what you're saying, but that guy, his post that he has over a hundred thousand followers shouting me out, he just did something for me. I'm just trying to return the favor for him. I don't have enough money to give everyone a tibialis bar who can't afford it. Like he's trying to help me on my goal of making people aware of solutions. He did something for me. I'm trying to do something back for him. So in my case, it's like, I just want honest, workable supplements for my people. Not to mention, again, this is the only brand of supplements I've taken through all my success with my knees. So it's a no brainer for me, but I understand that I'll be attacked for

almost anything. So I'm just trying to. Yeah. And so you just go, okay, who cares then, right? So long as I know that I'm acting according to my principles, acting ethically, having integrity, I really don't care if people are going to misconstrue that or misinterpret my actions as unethical. And I may defend myself, but I'm not going to get defensive about it because my estimation of what I'm doing and not doing matters a lot more to me than random people on the internet. Really? You're 100% right. I think with like the sheer, because of like how often I post and stuff, it's just a very high volume of my day can be consumed. So like all the products that I help the slant boards, the tibialis bars, these monkey feet that I use to kind of load into the hamstrings

and hip, like all like accessory stuff to the main knee stuff. I don't make any kickbacks off that either simply so that I just don't have to waste the time. I think I just hate wasting time on explaining to those people, like, and then they come around and they understand, but it it's like i don't have time to educate every single person on like how exchange works anyways but so we have those two and so i'd say if we're just looking at improving joint function and reducing pain and really just directly supporting what people and improving strength gains yeah exactly and now we go to the second order. Because that's the style, right? Totally, totally. Right. Because the stronger I get the ham, you know, so unorthodox movements, but it's still the same. Like my tibialis, we don't do it as

something for fun. Like I'm trying to get people to where they can tibialis raise 20% of their body weight for 20 reps. It takes time. It takes most people months, if not years to get to that. It's strength training. So like the final factor would be how to maximize the gains from strength training. No, it's small muscles. Exactly. So now we're talking more about the performance and body comp stuff, right? So we now need to at least mention that a high protein diet is better than a low protein diet for everything we've been talking about. And that a protein powder is convenient. I'm not saying it's necessary. It's just convenient. If you need to eat 180 grams of protein per day, can you do that with food alone? Absolutely. I actually already bought your way myself before you even

asked me onto the podcast because I was, I knew I was going to start trying to put on some muscle mass. I eat three high protein. Well, I usually work too much and eat too. So I'm making myself like, I'm not just using the protein powder as a crush. I'm actually trying to make myself get three solid meals a day. And I'm, I actually already have the protein powder on my desk. It's convenient. I mean, you mix it, you throw in a couple, a couple of scoops, mix it with water, drink it, and you just move on with your day. I do it. Um, a cup of blueberries, two scoops of it and two cups of water and it tastes delicious. And that'll just, just a little extra spill, a little of blueberries, two scoops of it, and two cups of water. And it tastes delicious. And that'll just a little extra spill, a little extra protein, little extra calories compared to

again, just like my norm. If I'm trying to gain a very reasonable 5, 10 pounds over the next, and again, as someone who hasn't necessarily been focusing on that, just maybe over the next year. That sounds doable. 10 might be a little bit. For someone who hasn't been working on it, right. 10 would just like maybe over the next year, like. Should I, that sounds doable. 10 might be a little bit. For someone who hasn't been working on it, right. 10 would be the high end just because I don't know the ramifications of me working too much and not stopping to eat. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, obviously if you're like someone's body weight can fluctuate, like the weight doesn't necessarily mean like, basically I'd like to still be really lean and gain five, 10 pounds. That's different than saying 10 pounds of lean muscle tissue. Yeah. Yeah. Pulse is obviously something to consider for talking about getting more from our workouts. And again, even if the workouts or talking about the portions of the workouts that are targeting these joint tissues that you want to progressively overload in the same way that fundamentally that you want to progressively overload in the same way that fundamentally

that you want to progressively overload your biceps. It's just, you have to start with lower loads and you use different exercises. But like you've said, the training principles are the same. They're just applied in a slightly different way. Right. Bicep, hamstring, tricep, quad, forearm, flexors, extensors, calves, tibialis. Like we're just talking about. Exactly. They may be unorthodox exercises, but we're trying to get stronger. And so in pulse, you have citrulline, you've mentioned that improves blood flow. I know you're mentioning that specifically in the context of joints. A lot of citrulline though, compared to other products, like way more than other products.

Yeah. That's the high end of the clinically effective dose, again, eight grams per serving. And that also has been shown to improve muscle endurance. And you would experience that in being able to get a couple more reps with your normal working weight is a reasonable expectation. And then there's beta alanine, which also can improve work capacity, improve muscle endurance, and also appears to improve muscle gain separate from improving performance, similar to creatine, not mechanistically, but just that it seems to have an additive effect. So that's useful. Or if you train a little harder. And I think that may be why I gravitated towards this as well, because with the joints here, you can see I'm trying to get stronger, but sometimes on like

a 20 rep max or something like that. And that rep range, that higher rep range in particular is where beta alanine shines actually yeah and even getting a little more pump can give you like a mental boost to a lot of these exercises are about it has to feel good you know what i mean like it's a feel good and then we're trying to like get stronger on like your 18th 19th 20th rep so that also may have been a big part because you put a lot of beta alanine in as well which those are they, they're not cheap. And again, you've listed all the ingredients. So if someone wants to like get one specific effect, they totally could. I'm at a point where I, looking back, I spent over $10,000 just on different rollers and, you know, different things that actually aren't like causing internal,

you know, changes for my workouts, rollers, anti anti-inflammatory drugs i was hooked on for a long time taking way way way too much even stuff like years after surgery like taking advils like no one knew i was just taking like a dozen a day it was kind of nuts i'm glad that's a lot yeah and even research shows that that might actually wear down your cartilage. So it's like, Hey, running out of cartilage, knee hurts. Let's destroy what's left. Yeah. Don't fix the underlying cause. And that's why I've always told people about like citrulline. But I think what you're saying now, I think the beta alanine and citrulline combined might've been, there might've been more to it than just the citrulline.

Very possible. And also there's betaine and that also enhances strength and muscle endurance and alpha GPC is in it, which increases power. So it's just a, it's a very well-rounded pre-workout supplement. It doesn't have too many ingredients, but has the right ingredients at the right doses. Alpha GPC is also expensive as fuck. Like if you have, it's so expensive. Yeah. Trust me. I know from trying to research all these ingredients myself. And that's why, again, for me, it's like the amount of cost per day, it's like less than my lunch, you know, like to be taking even all this stuff combined anyways. And then one other supplement I should probably mention is recharge post-workout creatine L-carnitine that can improve muscle

repair, reduce soreness, and then corosolic acid, which is more if you're eating a post-workout meal and it can enhance glucose and amino acid absorption. So you can get a bit more of the nutritional benefit from the post-workout meal. But that's also worth mentioning, right? Because again, particularly the creatine, if you're doing any sort of resistance training whatsoever, you really should be taking creatine because it's completely safe. It's the most researched molecule in all of sports nutrition, and it works well in most people. You do have non-responders as with any natural supplement, but in most people, they are going to gain muscle faster. They're going to gain strength faster. They're going to recover from their workouts faster.

They're going to experience less post-workout soreness, which encourages them to continue training harder. I think it's well worth the expense and it's relatively inexpensive, although the price of it has gone up over the last five years, probably because of its popularity, but it's still very affordable. Yeah. And again, I'm not trying to judge. Everyone is in a different financial circumstance in the scheme of things when we're talking about joints and we're talking about the things that people spend on everything supplement wise i mean they're supplementary by definition is what i say right i mean these are on the low end of like i used to spend is 75 just for like one massage you know what i mean boom done oh man like in the scheme of what athletes spend on their bodies, supplements. And that's why I'm taking that. Cause this is like foundational stuff, buying a $20,000, like hyperbaric chamber. I have athletes doing that too. You know what I mean?

Like I've never done any of that stuff. I've never been in that kind of like, you know, price range, but like imagine making millions of dollars on your body. So supplements, I feel like it's something that almost all of us could take to some degree. So I'm going to be taking the fish oil and the fortify, and then I'm going to take pulse before workouts. I just work out once a day, Monday through Friday. And then just because I'm like an addict, I'll usually do like some of my mobility stuff or like something on the weekend because I can't help it.

But like for my actual, like the workouts I'm trying to get stronger on, I'll take pulse before the workout recharge after the workout. And then I'm going to add one shake just because like I'm trying to get stronger on, I'll take pulse before the workout, recharge after the workout. And then I'm going to add one shake just because like I'm already eating a diet that works for me. But if I add that shake, well, it just means I'm going to be getting more calories. You know what I mean? And more of the fuel that I need to grow. And just making sure you get enough protein.

I mean, that's the key, right? Calories. If we're talking now, we're talking more body comp stuff, controlling your calories and controlling your protein are the two most important nutritional factors. Carbohydrate and fat doesn't matter as much. Most people are going to do better with a high carb rather than a low carb if they're using their body a lot.

And then the nutritional component of the diet, the micronutrients matters. But more over the long run, you're not going to notice acute benefits from going from a relatively poor diet, nutritionally speaking, to a diet rich in micronutrients. You may notice some minor things, but not body comp. I've gone extended periods of time even eating fast foods now, still eating similar total calories and stuff like that. And again, I think that's something that it would be smart of us to eat the most natural sources that we can over the long term but like it's not like i couldn't dunk you know like and some of the best dunkers i've seen eat the most

fast food we used to joke like this one guy lost like he lost five pounds and we asked why and he switched from mcdonald's to checkers like he was looking like pounds and we asked why. And he switched from McDonald's to checkers. Like he was looking like shredded and we're like, dude, what did you, like, what did you do? Like he, he changed up his, so like your genetics and the, the time you spend training. And as you said, the calories and the protein in the short term, but I am one of those people that I'm just like, I want to be healthy and fit when I'm 70, 80, 90. And I'm not saying I couldn't do that eating fast food, but like, you know, why not get the most natural

food sources I can. Yeah. You're going to have a better quality of life eating well. If we're talking now again about the decades you are through exercise and maintaining a healthy body composition and through maintaining good sleep hygiene and managing your stress and having good relationships and all that stuff, you can still be in a, yeah, in a pretty good place. But if you don't have that nutritional component, you will be missing a bit of quality of life that you would have if you would have consistently eaten relatively unprocessed stuff, you know, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes. Honestly, if I had any thing to share, cause like a lot of people ask what my diet is and stuff, and it's very basic. And honestly, the best thing I do is I've just kind of over the years and it

didn't always work for me like this, but like in the year 2021 so far so like it's may 25th i haven't put a single piece of junk in my body that doesn't mean that's even the best for some people having popcorn on movie night or whatever at the movie like for some people they'll be happier with that and actually you know what i mean where it kind of gets into that line of like if you're too strict for some people it doesn't work you don't need to be that strict is the point. You can if it works for you, but you don't need to. Exactly. And that's why I'm just saying for people that know, like, that is what I do. And I think that for me, I'm one of those people that I'm like, I pride myself like

my number one. I've always been an underdog. I've always been the short guy. I've always been the slowest guy, the guy who can't jump. So like just mentally for me, like my thing is always like, I can at least be mentally tougher than someone else. So for me going this entire year without having a single cheat item, even once that will boost me in my own way. And with it, whatever hormones, and you know what I'm talking about, that might give me the same rush that someone else gets from actually having like their favorite ice cream. And I used to have one day a week where I actually would just

forget that I was on a diet and I would intentionally allow myself to eat whatever I wanted. And what's funny is I didn't get to this place now by withholding anything. In my allowance all year, I can, on Sunday, I can live like a normal person. I get whatever I want.

I just haven't chosen it. So I would actually, if someone, that's how I coach people is to have one day a week that you can literally like, just not even like, it's not even, you don't even call it a cheat meal. Like you just like, like you just get to be a regular fucking person once a week. Like modern society has filled us with all kinds of nummy man-made snacks over the years, you know? So like, and that's part of our childhood and this part, you know what I mean? Like, but again, for me, like, this is my business. Like people happen to click more of my shirts off

and they're more likely to think about their knees. If my six pack looks good, like I didn't make the game. I'm not the one clicking on it for me. I actually get that mental boost from doing this. And my kid, by the way, is eight months old. He hasn't had a cheat meal either. He's only had breast milk. Like it's not like I'm missing a bunch with my family. As he grows up, I'm gonna wanna have a hot dog at the bowl. Like that's my style. I'm not like a diet stickler, but at the moment it is working for me

that I just never put any of these kind of man-made things in my body. Yeah, yeah, no, I totally understand. I mean, my diet is similar. I don't know what you would consider. So like, for example, have you had any ice cream? So for me, what I'm doing is I eat on the, I eat the same stuff for every meal every day, just because I don't care to think about food. I have too many other things to think about too many other decisions, too much other stuff to do. So I want to know exactly what I'm eating and when I'm eating it. And for whatever reason, I don't need variety in my diet.

I like it every single time. When we finish here, I'm going to go make my salad for lunch, and it's going to be exactly the same salad I've been eating for probably two years straight. And I'm already salivating. Think about it. I like it every day. Well, see, that's part of it right there is that consistency. I think for, I don't know about for women, but for guys, I find that a lot of guys like myself who are just in good shape all the time for whatever reason, like we're not forcing ourself that consistency. Like we actually like it. And I think that's one of the things that works for our body. Yeah, completely. I mean, it definitely makes it very easy, right. To control your calories,

control your protein, getting enough nutrients where I do, I guess, diverge from your monk-like existences, I usually will have one pint of ice cream per week and that'll usually be on the weekend. And it's either that or I'll have, well, no, it's just been that actually, because I just like the ice cream. I like this Jenny's brand of ice cream. They're Brambleberry, Brambleberry. Yeah. Crisp and chocolate. No, no, no. It's like peanut butter with chocolate flex or something. I think less details if I'm going to actually stick. So I include a little bit in the day to day, maybe some dark chocolate. I know that's not much of a quote unquote cheat food. All very. Yeah, that's all very normal stuff. That's exactly how I was for a long time. It's also very different that my kid's eight months old.

Like we don't have any like family shit that it's, it's from Corona. Like we had Thanksgiving dinner on the, sitting on the floor because we just moved and you know what I mean? And like everything was so slow to deliver during Corona that the first few months we literally are just had nothing. Anyways, it'll be very different when I have kids. This is just one phase of my life. I get asked all the time and i understand i get asked to and and often i have to preface my diet with you don't have to do this uh and yours is an even more

extreme version of mine right and i'm just like this is what works for me let me explain some context of why it works for me but if you are listening to me explaining my diet and how I'm eating the same dinner that I've been eating for probably two years, Monday through Friday, don't think you have to do that. If anything, the ice cream is going to get you more shredded. Like I mentioned Charles Pollockman earlier with the curcumin. He actually believed in like intentionally having a cheat meal actually for your body composition, I guess, because it would kind of shake things up and like it would do, you know, for your mood. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, minimally, yes. If it helps you just kind of stick to your diet in general better, if you just enjoy

your experience of eating and following, I would call it a regimen, I guess, then I think there's definitely value in that. Many people have reported to me that again, whether you want to call it a regimen, I guess, then I think there's definitely value in that. Many people have reported to me that, again, whether you want to call it a free meal, normal meal, cheat meal, whatever, or multiple meals, but the concept is where you're going to eat stuff that you just don't eat regularly. You're not eating this stuff every day. You're having it a couple times per week, one to maybe three times per week, and that people will find that they just get into a nice rhythm where the enjoyment they get from the cheat meal, a cheat days can get out of hand.

But if you know what you're doing, it's not a big deal. You just have to make sure your calories don't like, you know, double or triple over the course of one day. Like you're like preparing for an eating contest. Like, yes, that would be a problem. But they look forward to it though. Exactly. Yeah, you're going to go to the restaurant that you like and you're going to eat an appetizer. You're going to eat an entree. You're going to eat a dessert and you're not going to quote unquote worry about it. You're just going to enjoy yourself.

And so people will find that that's enough satisfaction for them to make it very easy for them to follow their meal plan throughout the week. And that's how it normally is. It's usually through the week they're following their meal plan. And of course you don't have to be perfect and they do slip up here and there, but they just generally find it pretty easy to follow their meal plan throughout the week. And then maybe it's Friday evening, they go to that restaurant or maybe it's Saturday. They start the day with some pancakes and then maybe for dinner, they have some pasta, you know, not how they would normally eat. I'm totally cracking. And that's, I just want to be clear. Like, it's not like I, while I made, you know, all I'm trying to, all I sell is just like what

I did for my knees. You know what I mean? So it's not like I ate this way to get my knee changes. I ate more like what you're talking about. Still pretty regimented eating the same things during the week, trying to be sensible and then and then i would definitely have you know i was like you like a pint of ice cream was definitely my thing you know but for this year yeah i haven't i liked baked goods too i like anything baked like that's any sort of cookie i like bread i mean i like croissants um you can buy frozen croissants and then thaw them and bake them super good there's a lot of good stuff out there and it and it doesn't mean it has to interfere with someone's goals totally well hey man this was

a great conversation really enjoyed it let's wrap up with where people can find you and your work. If they want to learn more about your methods or maybe they want to buy something from you, like where do they go? What do they do? I would definitely say so. Like you can for sure follow me on Instagram, knees over toes guy, but I would recommend YouTube because, you know, you have a search feature there and you can see, I have free videos on ankles, shin splints, ankle mobility, you know, you have a search feature there and you can see I have free videos on ankles, shin splints, ankle mobility, you know, like just so many different hamstrings.

But like I have a lot of educational content. My philosophy is kind of that my YouTube is like a library, right? So like you go in and you like can study things for free. And then it's very simple because someone can look there. You can see exactly what I do. That way you can decide for yourself, okay, do I want to do that? If you want to do that, I deliver 30 minute sessions, Monday through Friday, it's delivered through an app. You get to see exactly what to do. And then over half of people actually then film themselves on their last

set. So that like, not just on like your warm-up set your last set so that we can observe and based on the exercise i know which angle is best to see the form or whatever and then we can observe and help you along these progressions so it's very simple there's not a long-term contract that way you could use it for whatever you need i always have the first month as of this year i the first month is always half off. So it's $24 and 75 cents. If you'd like to do my system, be able to learn every program, every exercise on the site, and then through an app completely at your own pace, do any of those programs. They're like in a step-by-step order, but you could do them at any order and literally be coached and have your questions answered

every single day. It took a while to build, kind of like how you talked about your supplement costs. It's not like that style made money at first because it's like a low price, but as it goes, like I said, a little over half of people actually do it and send in the form. That means some people are doing it more for the knowledge or they like to follow along themselves. So obviously if a certain amount of people are doing it, it's really just the way the numbers worked out. If every person sent in their form, the price might have to be a little higher, whatever. You see what I mean? So it's like, it is what it is. Those are the numbers that have worked out 24, 75 for the first month without long-term contract, 49, 50 a month in general. And anyone can do my exact programs. I live them year round. So I have four programs and I just cycle my year,

summer, spring, fall, winter. And I actually just, I live them continually, you know, fine tuning the form videos here and there, fine tuning sets and reps here and there, fine tuning, you know, the order of the exercise or whatever, because I'm still living it. Hopefully that kind of explains what I do. That's all I do. And anyone can go learn a ton about it without any secrets on YouTube to determine if that's something they'd like to try. Awesome, man. I love it. I love it. Well, thanks again for taking the time to do this. And I'm excited for our budding partnership, the very unusual partnership, like the reverse influencer deal. I like it, but it's just a win-win. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's

great. And I'm happy to give your people the best possible deal they can get because I just made sure it sounds good to me. And most importantly, supplements that work, which allows my program to work better. I agree. I agree. And again, I really appreciate what you're doing. I know you're doing it for the right reasons and you're helping a lot of people. So it's admirable. Thanks, brother. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and found it interesting and helpful.

And if you did and you don't mind doing me a favor, please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to me from in whichever app you're listening to me in, because that not only convinces people that they should check out the show, it also increases search visibility. And thus it helps more people find their way to me and learn how to get fitter, leaner, stronger, healthier, and happier as well. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then simply subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any new stuff. And if you didn't like something about the show, please do shoot me an email at mike at muscleforlife.com, just muscle, F-O-R, life.com,

and share your thoughts on how I can do this better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback, even if it is criticism. I'm open to it. And of course, you can email me if you have positive feedback as well, or if you have questions really relating to anything that you think I could help you with, definitely send me an email. That is the best way to get ahold of me, mikeatmuscleforlife.com. And that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode. And I hope to hear from you soon.