Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Kyle Hunt on Using “Powerbuilding” to Get Bigger and Stronger

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

It has been said that there are two types of weightlifters in the world: On one hand, you have the people who just want to get as strong as possible—“aesthetics” be damned—and on the other hand, you have the people who just want pretty physiques, even if it’s all “show” and little “go.” I don’t know about you, but I’m somewhere in the middle—I got into lifting to look better and that’s still a major motivator, but I also enjoy training heavy and hard and knowing that all this flesh I’ve added to my frame has some function, too.  This is why I’ve advocated for a “powerbuilding” style of training from the beginning of my evidence-based fitness journey, even if I wasn’t familiar with the term at the time.  Basically, what we’re talking about is blending strength training and bodybuilding in a way that allows us to gain considerable strength and muscle—that delivers steak and sizzle. To help explain how powerbuilding works, I invited Kyle Hunt back onto the show. In case you’re not familiar with Kyle, he’s a competitive powerlifter, coach, author, and owner of Hunt Fitness, who’s worked with hundreds of powerlifters and bodybuilders alike. He’s also the host of The Absolute Strength Podcast, which I’ve been a guest on. In this episode, Kyle and I discuss ... - What powerbuilding is - How a powerbuilding program differs from a traditional bodybuilding routine - Advanced training principles like daily undulating and linear periodization - SImple programming tips for creating a powerbuilding routine - And more …   So if any of that interests you and you want to combine powerlifting and bodybuilding into a single, unified routine, tune in! --- Timestamps: 10:15 - How does a power building program differ from a traditional bodybuilding program?  15:03 - How many sets do you have to do to work up to that single? 15:58 - Is this something that you do every week? 27:01 - What is your preferred split? Is there a template you can give to the audience? 28:17 - What are the exercise selections? How do those pair up with some of these rep ranges? 29:51 - How do you track weekly volume? What’s your recommendation? 40:28 - Is there a pro and con assessment regarding this style of programming? --- Mentioned on The Show: Kyle Hunt’s New Book (Strength Training for Beginners): https://amzn.to/3eunfxc Kyle Hunt’s Website: www.KyleHuntFitness.com Kyle Hunt’s YouTube: www.youtube.com/huntfitnesstv Kyle Hunt’s Podcast: (Absolute Strength): https://goo.gl/sOj9x6 Kyle Hunt’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/huntfitness/ Shop Legion Supplements Here: https://legionathletics.com/shop/ --- Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.legionathletics.com/signup/

Hello, my fellow fitness fanatic. And if you're not a fitness fanatic, I hope to make you into one. That's one of my life's goals, turn you into a fitness fanatic. I'm Mike Matthews, and this is the Most Full Life podcast. Thank you for joining me today. And this discussion is gonna be about power building.

What is power building? Well, it has been said that there are two types of weightlifters in the world. On one hand, you have people who just want to get strong. They don't care about how they look. They just want to lift massive amounts of weight. And on the other hand, you have the aesthetics crew, right? You have the people who mostly just want pretty physiques, even if it's mostly just show and very little go. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm somewhere in the middle. I got into lifting to look better. That was my primary

motivation in the beginning. And it's still a major motivator of mine today. There's no shame in admitting that. I would say it's probably the single, I know it is for sure. It's the single, I know it is for sure, it's the single biggest reason I still work out. There are other reasons, but wanting to look great, wanting to look jacked, wanting to look in the mirror and really like what I see is the single biggest reason that I still train. And if you feel the same way, I'm with you. Welcome to the club. That said though, as much as i care about my physique i also do enjoy training hard i enjoy training heavy i enjoy pushing my limits and seeing how strong i can get as well you know it's nice to know that all this flesh that i've added to my frame has some function too and that's why i have advocated for a power building style of training really from the

beginning, going all the way back to the first edition of Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, which was my entree into the fitness scene, so to speak. And that has remained consistent throughout my evidence-based fitness journey. I wasn't familiar with the term power building back in 2012 when I published that first edition of Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. But that is exactly what I was telling people to do and what I was doing at the time. And really what I still do today, even though I'm not working out the exact same way, because my understanding of how to train has evolved. And I've updated my books many times now to reflect that. And what we're talking about here with power building is

really it's blending strength training and bodybuilding in a way that allows us to gain considerable strength and muscle that gives us steak and sizzle. And to explain how this works and how to do it, I invited Kyle Hunt back onto the show. And in case you're not familiar with him, he is a competitive powerlifter. He's a coach who has worked with hundreds of powerlifters and bodybuilders. So he has a lot of hands-on experience, both with his own body and with many other people.

And he's an author as well of a couple of bodybuilding and strength training books. And he has a podcast called the Absolute Strength Podcast. So if you like this interview with him, you'll probably like his podcast. He's had me on it, I think a couple of times now. And anyway, in this episode, Kyle and I discuss what power building is, how a power building program differs from a traditional bodybuilding routine, as well as a traditional strength training routine. So how do you blend these principles correctly?

We talk about some advanced training principles that he likes to use in his power building programs like daily undulating periodization as well as linear periodization. We also get into some simple and practical programming tips that you can use right away to create a power building routine and see how you like it

if you're not already training this way and more. Also, if you like what I am doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the world. And we're on top because every ingredient and dose in every product is backed by peer-reviewed scientific research. Every formulation is 100% transparent. There are no proprietary blends, for example. And everything is naturally sweetened and flavored. So that means no artificial sweeteners, no artificial food dyes, which may not be as dangerous as some people would have you believe, but there is good evidence to suggest that having many servings of artificial sweeteners in particular every day for long periods of

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and if you want to see more of it, and if you also want all natural evidence-based supplements that work, please do consider supporting Legion so I can keep doing what I love, like producing more podcasts like this. Hey, Kyle. Good to talk again, man. I randomly thought of you and that's why I reached out in that I was going over past guests who I liked talking with. I was like, all right, Kyle, I got to talk to Kyle again. So here we are. Yeah. Awesome. I think this is our, probably our fourth podcast together. This is my second one on your show and you did two on my show. Yeah. So I'm also happy to reciprocate. Now we're even. Yeah. Now it's my turn. I'll

bring you back on. Yeah. I'd love to come back on your show. So we're here to talk about power building, and this is good timing because you are, well, you're done with, you have a book on strength training in particular coming out. Well, when this episode comes out, it's going to be, is it going to be in its pre-order or is it going to be live? Yeah, it'll be pre-order when this first comes out. Okay, good. So it'll be in pre-order and what's it called? It is called Strength Training for Beginners. My first book was Bodybuilding for Beginners and then it's like I went Strength Training for Beginners.

Nice. And so yeah, this is going to be good timing for you. It's going to be very top of mind. Obviously power building, quote unquote, is probably a little bit different than what you're talking about in the book, but there's definitely overlap. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And this is also something that actually, it's funny, I'm not sure how popular the term is. I'd have to check Google Trends, but it is something that I get asked about now and again, and I'm a big believer in the effectiveness of this style of training. So that's why I thought this would make for a good discussion.

And many people who have been following me in my work for some time are going to realize like, oh yeah, this is kind of the way that Mike's been training for a long time and the way that he, this is kind of how it's reflected in most of the programming that I've shared in my books and my articles, but I haven't written an article on it. I haven't spoken about it in depth. So that's why I thought this would make for a good episode for my listeners. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the thing with power building is at the heart of it, it's something that I think we all kind of want, you want. We want to build muscle and we want to gain strength for the most part. Yeah. And as you advance in your journey, right? And especially as you get well into your intermediate phase, the correlation between your strength and your size becomes much stronger, right? So as a newbie, we know this has been

shown in research that at least for the first couple of months, a lot of the strength that you're gaining is because this is new and you're improving your technique and it's not necessarily because you're gaining a bunch of muscle. However, let's say after your first year, year and a half, certainly after your first two years of proper lifting, now a lot of the muscle that you're going to gain is going to come just from gaining strength. And conversely, a lot of the strength that you're going to gain is going to come from gaining muscle. Like your technique is going to be pretty good. There's not much improvement there anymore. This isn't as squatting isn't as difficult as maybe like pole vaulting or hitting a fastball or something. So you really just have to get bigger,

right? Yeah. Well, I mean, lifting is a skill. So like you said, initially, a lot of the strength gains are just neurological, but it's a limited skill. I mean, it's not anything too advanced. So after a year, I mean, you pretty much, I don't want to say master it because you definitely haven't mastered it. And elite power lifters, you know, I do compete in power lifting. So it's, technique is something that you can always tweak and improve. But largely beyond that first year, most of your gains are going to shift towards hypertrophy. So when you are building muscle, a bigger muscle has the greater potential to be a stronger muscle. So you got to just kind of play on that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

That's something that is fresh for me because I'm wrapping up. We were talking before we started recording. I'm wrapping up the audio book of this new second edition of my book for intermediate and advanced weightlifters called Beyond Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. And one of the big training related chapters just talks about how important it is to continue getting stronger. That's really the primary goal as a natural weightlifter, especially when your newbie gains are past you continue increasing your whole body strength. And a lot of that comes down to just working harder. That's it.

There are no real hacks or tricks. You got to do more work to get less as an intermediate or advanced weightlifter than a newbie and tying this back into power building. That's one of the reasons why I'm a big proponent of this style of training because it does, and I'll actually be curious, this is my take on it, and I'll be curious as to your take on it, and we get into some programming ideas and examples. increasing whole body strength while providing enough volume for each major muscle group per week to continue maximizing muscle growth as well, I guess is a way to put it. Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty good definition of it really. I mean, it's just simply, you know, you're, you're blending strength training, whether that's just getting stronger in any movement or with a power lifting emphasis. So squat, bench and deadlift,

but then also doing enough volume to elicit hypertrophy as well. Then how would a power building program differ from just a traditional body building program? How might that look in practical terms? Yeah. So there's really a couple ways that I like to look at it. And when we're talking about power building, one thing that really is important is we got to see like, where are you coming from? Because a lot of people either start with a bodybuilding focus or a powerlifting focus. For me, actually, it's kind of ironic because I compete in powerlifting. But when I first started lifting, I think this probably had to do with me being just a smaller kid growing up. I was really only focused on bodybuilding. My first probably, I don't know, four or five years of training, I really only cared about

bodybuilding. Now, that might have also been because at the time, I graduated high school in 2009, so we're talking 2004, 2005 to 2009. There wasn't much of a powerlifting scene back then, at least not that I had access to. And most of the information I was getting was bodybuilding magazines. So that was what I was interested in. So for someone like me, I spent four or five years focused on just bodybuilding training 100%. So then when I transitioned to powerlifting, I already had that big base of muscle building before I even started

powerlifting. So that's a little bit different than if you would have just focused 100% on powerlifting and then switched to bodybuilding. And that's kind of reflected even in the way many powerlifters train. If you kind of zoom out and look at it macro cycle to macro cycle, often you'll see them training in higher rep ranges and maybe doing more accessory work, more bodybuilding kind of stuff, and then increasing the specificity as they get closer to a competition. But I guess if you're going to be following a quote-unquote power building routine, it just kind of remains blended, right? So maybe with a bodybuilding routine, how might that look in terms of, let's say, workout split and exercise focus? What exercises are you going to be emphasizing

and how might you split that volume up versus in a power building program? Yeah. Well, you have a couple of different ways to actually program it. I kind of like to look at it in three different ways. So you have like the first option, which I think Jim Wendler really popularized with 5-3-1. I mean, 5-3-1 was probably much the first introduction to percentage-based training for a lot of people and the first program that actually had built-in progressions and stuff. But the way that's set up is you do your main lift of the day,

so like squat bench, deadlifter, and overhead press for lower reps, kind of like the strength work, and then throw in accessory work for accumulating volume. That's one way. Then you have the second way, which is more like the DUP model. I think Lane, back in the day, Lane Norton had his FAP program where it was like the first couple days of the week are power-based, strength-based, where you're focusing on squat bench, deadlift, overhead press, rows, things like that for low reps, higher weight. So those are like the strength days.

And then later in the week, more accessory, more like quote unquote bodybuilding work, higher volume, and you kind of just run that. Then there's a third model, which I actually tend to gravitate towards a little bit more. And it's really just how you would organize normal training, really, when you look at a general periodization cycle. really just how you would organize normal training, really, when you look at a general periodization cycle. So like you said, a lot of times you start out with less specific, higher volume stuff, and then you slowly work towards higher intensity. Now, you can hear people, they're already like, okay, well, then there's a couple things why

people got away from traditional linear periodization. And then they started focusing on conjugate and DUP. They'd say, well, all right, well, if you're in a hypertrophy block, and if you're kind of moving in one direction for a long time, stacking together two, three, four training blocks of building muscle, what's that going to do to your strength work? So I think that's kind of answers your question here. It's like, well, what can we do during those hypertrophy blocks to actually make it a power building program? And one of the things I like to do, one of the probably the simplest ways is to pick a few exercises that you want to maintain or actually gain strength on. So an easy, I mean, the ones that work really well are powerlifting movement.

So squat, bench, and deadlift, and just throw in some strength work, not lower volume. So you're not going to affect your actual muscle building work. A good way to do it is just to work up to a heavier shingle, like between seven to eight RPE, which is probably roughly 90% of your one RM. Do that, work up to that, and then jump right into your normal work. So you might start a workout, let's say it's a lower body workout. You might start a workout working up to one rep with about 90% on the bar and then do the rest of your workout, which would be higher reps. It'd be like your volume.

So it's like, cool. You have your strength. You start with your strength work. How many sets might you do to work up to that single? And that's my question there. And then, and then you'd follow that up, right? With like, okay, cool. I'm done with that.

I'll head over to the leg press now do and now, and I'm going to be doing sets of eight or whatever i mean the single is great because that's it's highly specific i mean one rep but i mean you could easily do you know work up to a heavy triple i mean that would work too and the reason i say that versus like a traditional powerlifting program would say okay you gotta do a kind of accumulate volume in that rep ring so it'd be four five or six sets of three instead of just one or two. I mean, of course we're going to work up to us and we'll have the buildup sets, but you know, if we're in a hypertrophy block, we want to limit how much of the actual strength work we're willing to do. Cause that's one of the issues that people have

with power building programs. If, cause you can't just throw everything in, you know, cause then it's like you, you kind of water everything down. Or you just blow yourself up. Yeah. Or you just can't just throw everything in, you know, because then it's like you kind of water everything down. Or you just blow yourself up. Or you just can't recover from it. Yeah. And is that something that you would do then every week over however long the macro cycle is? Let's say it's a three-month block or anywhere from two to four months. Would you approach it that way week to week? Or would you start that training block, maybe working up to heavy triples and then move to doubles and then singles and restart or? Yeah, that would be a good way to do it. And you can do that. I've programmed it that way,

where it's like you just do like if you have like a three week block, you go three, two, one. Or if you kind of look at it bigger picture, you can do the first three weeks, you're working up to triples and try to get higher each week or depending on the RPE, maybe even just maintain it for three weeks. And then for the next three weeks, doubles. And then for the following three weeks, singles. Yeah, I've done that before. And I've enjoyed that. My programming is a bit different right now because for, well, before the Rona, i was on probably about month eight or nine of this beyond bigger leaner stronger 2.0 just to make sure i've kind of run through it a lot myself because you know no matter how much experience you have with programming and training with your body when

you put stuff down on paper and you go do it there are always changes there are always things i always make changes yeah there are always things you just didn't think of or didn't realize, but it's similar. And this is a question I actually have for you in terms of just your opinion on that style of programming, especially that style of periodization where it is. I mean, I guess it depends on, we just talked about the little strength component of these workouts, but depending on what else you're doing, it could be a daily undulating periodization, which for anybody listening, who's wondering what that is, it's, you'll usually see it with programs where you're doing the same exercise several times per week, and you're working in different rep ranges with different loads each time. So let's say you're going to squat three times a week. You might start your first squat

workout might be eight reps with, I don't know, 75% or something like that. And then the next one might be six with a bit heavier weights and then four with a bit heavier weights. Do you have anything to add to that Kyle? Yeah, no, I'm a big fan of DUP style training. That's, I mean, I've used it a lot on my program, my eBooks and stuff. I've used a lot of DUP because it does kind of offer you the best of both worlds. And one of the things I like to do with it is I like to use the DUP model from like a weekly standpoint, but then also layer in the linear aspect of it too. And I found that if you keep the rep ranges closer together, so like, for example, if we're doing a DUP program, but if we're in a hypertrophy block, the rep ranges might be like 10, 8, 6 versus something where – because I think sometimes when people mess up, they'll say, okay, well, why don't we just throw it all into one training block?

We'll do 10 to 12 reps one day, five reps the next day, and then singles the last day. And then it's like, oh, we're doing everything. Well, then that's where we're kind of watered down. Like, okay, we're not really enough volume to build muscle, not really enough intensity to build strength. So what are we really doing? Yeah. Yeah. And not enough volume at that really high intensity, right? It's just not exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. So that's one way of going about it. Now, what I've been doing for some time now, and what I am putting into this new book is a weekly undulating periodization. And the reason being, I explained this in the book, but the reason being is DUP is great, but it is a bit

more complex, let's say a weekly undulating periodization. And I feel like it's most suitable to a situation where you're doing the same exercises and you're not going to probably not going to be too concerned about applying DUP to your biceps curls. It's mostly for your big lifts, right? And then you might just do like a double progression, eight to 10 or 10 to 12, or maybe even six to eight on your small muscle exercises, your bodybuilding exercises. But so with DUP, it works well if you are squatting, benching, deadlifting, overhead pressing several times per week. But if you're not, then it doesn't quite fit. And in the programming that is in Beyond Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, you're not performing the same exercises several times per week. You're doing some variations, like you are doing some flat

benching on one day and then some incline benching on the other day, but you're also only squatting once a week and you're deadlifting once a week, although it's a fair amount of volume on the deadlift. So it is a four hard sets is so it's a pretty decent lower body workout. And so that's why I talk about this in the book that I get asked about DUP a lot. It's solid programming. It has good science and it works, but I think it works best for very specific circumstances. Yeah, it definitely works with higher frequencies. But really what we're talking about is really just how we're organizing volume and intensity. Yeah.

And so in your typical power building program, then you will often find that you are doing the big movements several times per week, at least one, if not two or all three? Usually just because the specificity element is important. I think that's one of the things that really differentiates just a bodybuilding program or a powerlifting program from each other. And what makes a power building program is just the specificity of, hey, we're doing a lot of hypertrophy bodybuilding work, but we're also being specific to the powerlifting movements or whatever movements that we're actually trying to get stronger on. Because, I mean, that's the thing. With strength, there's more to getting stronger than just getting bigger, like we already talked about.

You got to practice the movements. And although when you start out lifting, yeah, a lot of the initial strength gains will be neurological. But if you find, if you get away from those movements, that you almost lose the efficiency of the movements. Yeah, for sure. By the time this episode's out, I think a lot of gyms are going to be back open and a lot of people are going to be experiencing that firsthand. Even people like me, I think you have a proper home gym, right? Yeah. So you're one of the privileged few. I don't. It didn't occur to me until everything was sold out essentially. Back in February is when I would have needed to buy

everything. Yeah. I've wanted to buy more stuff, but then obviously everything's sold up. I know. I know. So I've had though some pretty good workouts. I have bands and I have Bowflex dumbbells that go up to 90 pounds and that's really what I've been using and I can't complain. That's all you really need to maintain. anything in the way of, like you were saying, potential strength, like the raw potential is still there. It's just, yeah, my form is going to be rusty. I'm sure it's going to take, I'm guessing it'll take probably four weeks to get back to my pre-coronavirus training weights. I think that's a fair estimate considering, again, that I've been working out intensely and regularly. It's just I haven't deadlifted in a couple of months and I haven't barbell squatted in a couple of months and barbell bench press and so forth. Yeah, absolutely. That's actually one of the things I was talking to my clients a lot about like, Hey, look, that potential strength, that maintaining

muscle, because it doesn't really take much volume to maintain muscle. It takes a lot more to build it than it does to maintain it. So that's why it was just important to kind of like do what you can, you know, rather than doing nothing. If you can maintain muscle, yeah, you're going to lose some of the efficiency of the movements, but it's going to be a lot easier to transition back to the gym, maintaining muscle than if you've done nothing at all. Totally. And if speaking to the listener now, if you haven't done much in the last couple of months, you're not screwed. You'll be okay. I actually, I have an article going up over at Legion Athletics written by my director of content. And I actually

may take it and go through it and even turn it into my own article, or I might leave it just, you know, it's his, we went over the outline and all the programming and stuff. And so it'll be live also by the time this podcast is live. So if anybody is like, what about somebody like me who has worked out like six times in the last or less or three times the last three months you're not gonna be able to just jump right back into it and obviously resume whatever you're doing previously but again within the i think the program we include in the article is like four to six weeks and it just focuses on working back up to a good level of intensity and a good level of volume and thanks to muscle memory if you've lost any muscle along the way,

you will gain it back very quickly. So just to give listeners a heads up that they can find that information over at the blog, if I haven't already turned it into a podcast, we'll see how the schedule plays out. Yeah, there's actually some pretty good research on muscle memory. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've written and spoken about that. It's a very real thing. What I tell people is I just compare it to newbie gains. Like remember for the first six ish months, how fun it was to go to the gym every week and add weight to the bar. That's kind of the experience when you're detrained and you get back into it. Yeah. I think there may be even an

argument to, I mean, maybe not this prolonged absence, but there is an argument to spend some time every year, every couple of years where you take a couple of weeks off. Then you're talking about something other than just for the purposes of, you're not talking about a deload, you're talking about. No, I'm not talking about a deload. I'm talking like kind of a little bit extended, like two, maybe even a month. You know what I mean? I personally don't do it, but. And are you referring to the sensitization to volume point? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Greg Knuckles has written about that. And unless there's new research that has come out or new analysis, the last I heard on it is that it's kind of an interesting theory that hasn't been proven out and it's probably not very relevant to most weightlifters.

Maybe it's relevant to people who are competing either in strength or physique, you know, bodybuilders or powerlifters, but for most everyday people who just want to get pretty jacked, it probably doesn't have much usefulness to them one way or another. Yeah. And plus I think a lot of us, our weekly training sessions are more to us than probably the X's and O's. Can't quit therapy for a couple of weeks. We see what happens. For a couple of months, the city starts burning down after you have gyms.

That is the true causation. That's the problem. Is that the gyms are closed. People haven't been training. They haven't been going to therapy for two months. That's true. That's true. And it has all these ripple effects. It's affecting people who don't go to the gym are still affected. It's the butterfly effect. It all came from us. We fitness people, we are collectively the atlas that holds the world up.

Yeah, we ruined it for everybody else. to power building. So I'm just thinking with where people are after like, okay, I would like to give this a try, particularly this DUP approach, because if people have come across anything over the years that I've written or spoken, written or said about power building, it wouldn't have been that. It would have been more along the lines of a kind of like a push-pull legs split with some heavy weightlifting and then some bodybuilding stuff thrown on top of it. And that is one way of going about it. But what are your thoughts on, like, what's your preferred split? And if you were to give people listening a simple template saying, hey, you want to give this a go here, try this. What would that look like?

Yeah. I mean, I love upper lower splits for this because the way it works out is, I mean, you can set it up a lot of different ways. So if you can do upper lower beginning of the week where you're doing higher rep stuff, and then the upper lower later in the week is a completely different rep range. Let's say we're starting out in a hypertrophy block. So it's like, okay, we're going to do power building, but we're going to start focused on building muscle. So we'll do upper lower, upper lower. For the most part, we'll have the rep ranges, let's say eight to 10, but we're working up to one or two sets of one to three reps like we talked about. And the next block could be another pretty much hypertrophy block, but we changed the rep ranges a little bit. So instead of 8 to 10 and 6 to 8, it's 6 to 8 and 4 to 6. And then it kind of works to the point where now we're getting into more of a strength focus, but we've kept in the strength the entire time.

But then when we're in the strength focus, we'll still do the accessory movements. So we're still accumulating volume to get the best of both worlds. And what are the exercise selections look like and how do those pair up with some of these rep ranges? Because when you say upper or lower, like people might be wondering, okay, they're going to figure upper, we're going to have some sort of press, but what else is going to be in there? Then the lower, okay, it's going to be squat, deadlift. Do you separate those? Do you use them in the same workout? Yeah. So typically I'll throw in deadlifts on lower, even though obviously they do have some upper components as well, your back. But normally if I'm looking at it as for upper work, it would be the horizontal pressing, bench pressing, overhead pressing, vertical rows,

Horizontal pressing, bench pressing, overhead pressing, vertical rows, horizontal rows, so like pull-ups, rows, curls, tricep stuff, obviously some shoulders. Some side raises. Side raises, obviously, yeah, they're critical. And then lower squats, deadlifts, RDLs, lunges, Bulgarian split squats, things like that. Okay. And for the strength component of the workouts, I'm assuming you're focusing just on the big movements, right? So that's going to be like, you're going to be working up to, if we're talking about working up to starting the workout with working up to

triples, doubles, or singles, that's going to be on the squat bench deadlift and the overhead press. Yeah. I don't really even do that with the overhead press. I found that for most people, it just ends up hurting your joints a little bit too much. So for me, I like to keep the strength work to just the squat bench and deadlift and the close variation. So you could do like, you know, if you want to alternate like a front squat instead of a regular squat or a close grip bench press instead of a regular bench press, things like that, that works. But the main three powerlifting movements and the close variations. That makes sense. And then in terms of weekly volume, how do you like to track that and what's your recommendation there? So if somebody is taking notes and they want to start

sketching out a program, I know that's going to be something they're going to be wondering like, okay, how much should I be doing in these workouts? Yeah. Well, for the most part, we want to be in that 10 to 20 hard sets range for each muscle group for the most part. Now, when we're looking at the hard sets- And then just to interject, that's per week, right? Yeah, per week. Yep, yep. Per week. Some of you are like, per workout? Yeah, not per session. That's how you die.

Yep, per week. Yeah. Although, no, I've actually said that and I've had people ask me about that. So that's a good clarification. Yeah, that makes me think of Lane's fat program. I don't remember the exact details, but I remember it was a very high volume program when viewed through that lens. And I remember hearing from people back when that was popular, I think it was being promoted via bodybuilding.com. And I remember semi-regularly hearing from people basically saying they were struggling on the program and they didn't know why? And so I remember having, I had a copy and paste for that, just explaining that it's a very difficult program, very high volume.

Here's what I would do. If I remember correctly, it was almost like if you cut the volume kind of like in half, you'll probably do well. He had the fat one. Then he also had the pH three, I think it was called or something. Now that one, that one that killed people. Oh, oh really? So I was even, again, I don't remember the exact numbers on fat, but I just remember

I was often telling people like about cut it in half. Let's start there and see how you feel. And then slowly work this up over the course of months. And if you can't reach the prescription, don't sweat it. This is not for most people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, volume is something you always want to kind of start on the low end.

And then if you need to add more, add more, but yeah, 10 to 20 sets for the most part per muscle group per week is a good spot to be in. And, you know, when we're in the strength phases, we'll probably actually want to have a little bit lower volume just so we can account for the extra intensity on the main lifts. Because when we're talking hard sets, that works really well for things over like six reps. But when we're focusing on the strength stuff, to equate volume, we almost have to get into the total tonnage. So sets times reps times weight, and that can get a little squirrely.

So I've just found that when intensity is higher, volume almost has to go down. So if you're someone who is caught up on, okay, I want to do as much volume as possible, that'll probably work when we're not doing as much strength work. So you can get closer to that 20 sets per week, but when we're doing more strength work stuff under six reps with the intensity higher, so intensity closer to one RMs, you'll probably want to back the volume down a touch. Interesting. So let's just call it a few months. It could be three months. It doesn't really matter if it's two, three, four, but a few month macro cycle. And we're in the beginning of it and we're working up to, would you say triples for the strength components? Is that reasonable?

Yeah, we could definitely do that. Yep. Okay. And then your volume could be closer to 20 hard sets per major muscle group per week in that first, let's say it's three, four weeks. And then now we're doing doubles. And then from there you would reduce the volume elsewhere accordingly. Like you would, you would drop, would you drop just from your, well, I guess it'd be lower end. So maybe you drop like three or four hard sets. You kind of ratchet that down a little bit and then. Yeah, you could, but then you could also bump up the volume actually at the higher intensity oh i guess i should say that you know what i mean yeah so in the beginning you might only work up to so that's that point of yeah how do you calculate that but i guess you

can calculate it right in terms of okay you've worked up to your heavy set in the beginning maybe you're saying it could be like one heavy set you're working up to and then in the next block you're working i'll say now it's doubles so it's even heavier weight and you're working up to. And then in the next block you're working, I'll say now it's doubles. So it's even heavier weight and you're working up to how would that look for you? Would it be two sets or three? Yeah, you could do two or three because so really what we're saying is, so initially we're, our main goal is building muscle. So we're keeping that heavy triple in. That's just our, our way. It's like maintenance for strength for. Exactly. Exactly. We're maintaining strength. So we really aren't really doing any type of overload for strength. We're just maintaining it. So for anybody listening who hasn't experienced or hasn't done this style of training, I mean, I have, and I can speak to my experience that

that point of maintaining strength, it might sound kind of weird because you're like, well, you're still working hard in these other sets. You're maintaining all of your muscle. What do you mean maintain strength? But what you'll find is if you train in higher rep ranges for any more than probably three, four weeks, and you can gain muscle in that period. So you've increased your potential for strength, but you'll find that when you drop from, let's say a lot of eight to 10 or six to eight, four to six, probably not so much, but let's say six to eight to 10. Yeah. Or higher than eight, 10. Right. And so you've gained some muscle. You've worked really hard. You've done a good job.

And now you calculate your estimated one rep max, and you want to see how strong you are, you put it on the bar and you just have to bail. You're like, what happened? Where did I go wrong? You didn't go wrong anywhere. It's just, you could kind of think of it in terms of, and this is how I've thought about it, is when you're working in those higher rep ranges, when you switch to the lower, when there's a big change there, you kind of have to recalibrate your muscles and your body to that heavier weight. And particularly if you've gained a little bit of muscle and that might not be entirely physiologically accurate, but I think the analogy works as a basic understanding. It does take a bit of an adaptation on a systemic level

to that heavier weight for you to be able to express your full potential for strength. Do you agree with that? Yeah. Well, like we said before, I mean, really all our adaptations to training are specific to what we're doing. So if we're working in higher rep ranges and then we go to try to test our one RM, well, we haven't been working on anything close to a one RM. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Very true. And so by doing what you're saying, then Kyle, by starting a block with where you have low volume, but you're doing some heavy work in there, there are those triples and then you're moving on and doing your higher volume, bodybuilding, muscle building stuff that is enough to maintain strength. And that's the, I just wanted to make sure that was clear to the listeners that you're just keeping your, you're reminding your body of like, this is what it's like to squat,

but to do triples on the squat bench and, and deadlift. And if it has gone well for you, then what you're able to do is when you get into the heavier stuff, let's say it's in your third macro cycle. Now let's say you're deeper into, well, no, I guess it would be more just the third mesocycle. Say you're deeper in your macro cycle now, you're doing your heaviest stuff, you're going to find that it won't be as jarring as if you went from a lot of high rep to suddenly low rep, right? Yep. And as we get into later on in our overall macro cycle, when we start to move from initially we're doing mostly hypertrophy work with just the strength maintenance. And then we actually get into strength blocks. What we'll find is, I mean, then we'll start, I mean, we're essentially just adding sets to our strength work.

That's where we're just, you know, we could start our workout instead of, you know, we did worked up to one heavy triple. Well, now we're doing three or four sets of triples. And how would that fit into the overall picture here? For people who want to give this a go, I want them to understand with a fair amount of precision, like what they're supposed to do. So starting the macro cycle here, they're working on, let's say, to a single triple, and then they're going to be doing some higher rep stuff on the compound exercises, mostly throwing some accessory stuff there. We don't have to get into all the specifics of that type of programming, but it's just kind of straightforward weightlifting programming for getting more jacked. And then as they move into the macro cycle, let's say it's a

month later now, they're doing doubles, but still then the volume is going to be what it'd be higher than when they were doing the triples, but they haven't fully transitioned into like where they're primarily focusing on strength. Yep. Okay, good. And then they're moving into, let's say the third phase of this macro cycle, which would be more strength training, in which case the strength volume has gone up and the bodybuilding volume has gone down quite a bit, I'm guessing. Yep. Also kind of take a step further and start looking at, okay, so now we're into the strength block. Now it's almost like we're going to prioritize the strength movement. So what do we need to do to get the strength movements up? So now we're looking at even our accessory work

will be okay. Okay. Well, where are we weak on our main exercise? So where are we weak on a squat? Where are we weak on a bench? Where are we weak on a deadlift? And then the hypertrophy work almost becomes now that's the maintenance work. Now we're just, we're lowering the volume a little bit, throwing in some people will be worried about their b a little bit, throwing in some, people will be worried about their biceps and calves, maybe quads, things like that. That won't be hit from the main exercises, but the actual volume on the main work will go up. Everything else will go down to the maintenance.

Makes sense. And then you'd follow that up probably with maybe a full kind of volume and intensity deload and restart. Yep. That makes a lot of sense. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my sports nutrition company, Legion, which thanks to the support of many people like you is the leading brand of all natural sports supplements in the

world. Is there a kind of pro and con assessment that you would make regarding this style of programming versus, I mean, really probably what it comes down to the main disadvantage, as far as I can see, would be complexity, right? So this style of programming, which requires you're going to be working in Google Sheets, probably you're going to be working in a spreadsheet. You're going to be calculating percentages of one rep maxes. And I don't know, unless there's an app out there, maybe there's an app out there that allows this level of complexity, but it's going to take some time. It's going to take some work to lay this out. And obviously that means there are more ways to mess it up. And so what are your thoughts in terms of the strengths and the weaknesses of power building versus other simpler forms of programming?

Yeah. Well, one thing is I think it sounds a little bit more complicated than it probably is. I think if people saw it on a piece of paper, if you actually were listening right now, taking notes and laid this out, you'd see it and it would all come together a little bit easier. But there are some pros and cons to power building programs. I mean, the biggest thing is, you know, when we're trying to blend two things together, you're probably not going to get the absolute most out of either one. You know what I'm trying to say? So it's, however, I would say that you can, for most people, that's not going to be a concern. You can build as much muscle and gain as much strength following this style of training as really you want. However, if you

want to compete in powerlifting, then, hey, I mean, the more we can actually spend prioritizing the powerlifting movements, the better. Now, like we said, I mean, building muscle is still important to strength because the more muscle you have, the more potential you have for strength. But once you get further down the power lifting rabbit hole, you start asking the question, okay, well, the only thing we're going for is what increases our squat bench and deadlift. So for example, like your upper body work would pretty much all revolve around the bench press. It's like, how much volume can we shuttle towards the bench press and what actually... And how much can we support it with accessory work?

Yeah, yeah. So it's like our accessory work is pretty much going to be catered towards the bench. Then you start asking the question, like, okay, well, how much do we really get out of an overhead press? Is that adding to what we can bench? No. Well, let's get it out. Let's throw in a close grip bench press. Does that really...

Maybe take that out. Let's put in dumbbell benching. How much rows do we need to do for shoulder health and for upper back work? Three sets. Okay. Well, that's all we'll do. Do we need biceps? Probably not. No. Do we need triceps? Yeah, probably a little bit of triceps and there's the upper body workout, you know? And so then the point being there that if that's what you want to do, then do it, but that is geared toward maximizing performance and powerlifting. And so for someone listening who even let's say they compete in powerlifting or they do powerlifting meets, but they're an amateur and they're not, they don't have any great ambitions. They just do it because they enjoy it and they enjoy the style of training. training, then training, like you were just saying, where it's really just specific to powerlifting may not be ideal for them, right? Because-

Yeah. You don't really need to do that maybe the last month. Yep. Before, if at all. And so then powerbuilding would give them, it'd be a sweet spot for them where they can balance the volume between their major muscle groups, which means that they're going to get good physique development out of it, where it's not going to become imbalanced in terms of how it looks, which you see that sometimes with people who do a lot of strength training, there's a look to it. Like they usually have massive legs and massive butts and smaller upper bodies,

the smaller muscle groups, like the, especially the side delts and rear delts are often lagging and the biceps are often like some of the stuff you already pointed out, which again, doesn't matter if you're trying to just maximize strength. And I would say that's particularly true. At least I've seen that among the natural powerlifters or people who I would believe are natural. It's a different thing if you're on a bunch of drugs. Yeah.

Then everything is just huge and strong and you're lean all the time and whatever, but there are some actual trade-offs when you're natural. So that's cool if that's what you want to do because you're trying to get as far as you can in powerlifting. But if you want to be able to put up some numbers that are impressive and participate in the sport of it, even if it's just for fun, but you still feel like you can compete and have a physique that you want if you care about aesthetics, right? Then I think that's a pretty good in-between. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is it'll also offer some benefits if your goal is just building your physique. I think the qualitative benefit of actually looking at

numbers, because it's very easy. That's one good thing about when you are strength training. And although you can absolutely do this with a pure bodybuilding approach too, but just a lot of people don't because it's not important. But when you're doing power building and you're actually caring about your numbers, then overload becomes more important because you're actually paying attention to it. Just the act of recognizing what your numbers are and building in some progressions is important. That's very true. And that's something actually I talk about in the second edition of Beyond Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, and why the program uses a linear progression model, very similar to what we've been talking about for the primary exercises and double progression for the secondary exercises. Whereas bigger, leaner, stronger,

which is for people who are new to proper weightlifting uses double progression for both primary and accessory exercises. And I think linear can work just fine as well for new people. Double progression is very simple. It makes your workouts like scrambling an egg. You just show up and you're like, cool, I'm working this rep range. When I can hit that top of the rep range for three sets, I add weight. Very simple. Yeah, it works great. When you're new, it's so easy to do that. And it's so easy in a sense to audio regulate your workouts because your body's so responsive. But then as you progress, and I've experienced this firsthand, I know you have too, and probably many people listening has as well. It gets hard to know, actually, the psychological factors start to impact your

performance more and to try to auto-regulate your workouts based on how you feel in the moment, especially as you're coming toward the end of a set. And this is, I can speak for myself. I would tend to end sets earlier than I needed to. I would progress if I was feeling great, and I would tend to kind of stagnate if I wasn't, if I kept on trying to just auto-regulate and use double progression. But by switching to a linear, like you're talking about, where it's exact numbers and the progression is built in, and it's forcing me to add weight to the bar, and I have to at least give it a try. Maybe I'm not going to get every set necessarily. If I'm supposed to put 75% on the bar and put 80% on the bar and get six, something

like that, I may not be able to, but I'm going to give it a go regardless of how I feel. And what I've found now having a lot of experience with both of those approaches to training is that more often than not, I might feel like this is going to feel heavy. This is going to be tough. Or maybe the first set is fine. The second set is fine. And then the third set, let's say I'm supposed to do four sets where I'm like, oh shit, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get my reps just by having that clear goal in mind. Like I'm trying to get eight reps. There's no range here. I don't have to think, just get eight reps. More often than not, I've been able to perform a bit better than I anticipated and therefore perform a bit better than I would have if I would have been auto-regulating. Yeah. Well, I think if the

program's set up well, it should build that in. So it's like, hey, maybe week one is challenging, but you can get through it pretty easily. Then week two is a little bit harder. Then by week three, you probably should on your last set. Oh, shit. I don't know if I'm going to get this or not. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree.

Yeah. Well, hey, that's, I think, a great just kind of A to Z quick and dirty crash course on power building. I think we've touched on all of the major points. crash course on power building. I think we've touched on all of the major points. Is there anything else that you have bouncing around in your head that you think we should share before wrapping up? Well, I think the biggest thing is for the most part, I know it probably sounds confusing. Maybe listen to this twice, put it down on paper. It's probably not as confusing as it sounds. And maybe, maybe I just made it sound confusing but you know another thing with power building is you know it's a relatively new newer term i think probably has to do with power lifting becoming more popular in the last five years or so but you know back in the day a

lot of the bodybuilders trained very heavy you know so it's not really a new concept per se i mean a lot of guys like arnold and franco, they built their physiques doing a lot of heavy stuff. And I think incorporating that is just something that people like to do because at the end of the day, like we said, people want to build muscle, but they also want to be strong. Yeah. And like we were talking about earlier in the podcast, as you become more advanced, you really can't have one but not the other. You really do need to make sure that you are getting stronger if you want to keep getting bigger. And I think that's becoming more and more mainstream, that concept. At least it is in the fitness, in the evidence-based space for sure, like the body composition space, more and more people are realizing that the primary focus of a well-designed

weightlifting program for a natural weightlifter who's trying to get as jacked as possible is getting strong. And so you see a lot more of this kind of stuff that we're talking about. And of course, there are different ways to different splits you can use and different periodization methods you can use that it doesn't have to be daily. And I think that fits well if you are performing those exercises several times per week, but it's just that the fundamental principle of your program should always include some heavy weightlifting in it. Like the range should probably be between, I don't know, 60 and 95% of one rep max and how you break that all down can vary in many different ways. But that is, like you said, that's new ish. Because I remember when I first got into working

out, you probably had a similar experience where you just go buy a bunch of magazines and you're like, cool, what are all the really big guys doing? And you didn't see much of that. Like I didn't deadlift for probably the first seven years of lifting. I don't know. It just wasn't a thing. I didn't come across that much. Squatting was kind of a thing, but it wasn't as emphasized as it is now. And it was mostly just you do a lot of high rep stuff and you do a lot of drop sets and

super sets and giant sets and other fancy kind of training techniques. And that's how you get big. and other fancy kind of training techniques. And that's how you get big. Not you do these heavy kind of boring exercises and then you do some other stuff in addition to it, you know? Yeah. Well, that's kind of why I mentioned, you know, in like the 60s, 70s, it wasn't that uncommon to see those guys doing a lot of heavy squats and deadlifts and stuff. But then when I, yeah, like similar to you, when I first got into lifting, I was getting them, you know, flex muscle and fitness, those types of magazines. And it was basically not even really programs, just lists of exercises for high reps, a lot

of machine work. So that's what I did. 10 to 20 reps as if that's even helpful. Like, what does that even mean? It wasn't a program. It was a list of exercises. It was like a bunch of exercises, a lot of machines and cables for three sets of 10 to 20.

Good luck. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess one of the reasons for that, it's been assumed and probably, and this is definitely part of it, right? Is that it's just how steroid use changed, right? And how more and, well, I don't even know if it was better drugs, probably just for the most case, more drugs allowed people to get away with more and more mistakes really. And even single session could become absurd. Whereas like guys like you and me, we're not going to do more than probably

eight or 10 hard sets for any individual muscle group in a session. It might be as low as six for you. That's, that's how my training is. At least I can't go do 30 hard sets for chest in a workout and expect to get much more out of it than I would get from 10 hard sets. But if I want enough drugs, that changes now, right? Yeah. Well, I think if you try to do it, if you're not on drugs, you end up just doing a lot of junk volume. And I think kind of what happened to a lot of people is they'd end up just doing a lot of junk volume. And then once they started switching to more of a strength-based routine, that's why a lot of people I think see great benefit when they initially jump to a little bit lower volume, more emphasis on the strength movements. It may not even really be that, I don't know that the program itself is all that fantastic. It's just, it was better than what they were doing before.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, that's the story that I've heard from many, many people who have come to my, again, for people who are new to proper weightlifting, maybe they've been lifting for a while, but they've been doing things the way I used to be doing things, for example. So the programs for men and women where they'll come from very high rep stuff, bodybuilder type stuff, if they're guys and for women, it's even higher rep and very low intensity and kind of like Barbie weights with a bunch of cardio. But then they'll switch to a program again, that the programs are pretty simple. They're kind of push pull legs with

some heavy weightlifting, 10 to 12 hard sets per major muscle group per week, pretty balanced. The men's program has, it focuses a bit more on the upper body than the lower body because it takes a lot more work for us to get the upper body we want than the legs that we want. And for women, it's usually the way around and kind of that's it. So for a lot of people that have been surprised that how such kind of simple, I mean, I've gotten so many emails over the years where people are skeptical, like, you know, their workout, they're used to doing eight exercises. So it's a body part split, eight different exercises, all these fancy movements using the Bosu ball and using the cables and using machines in weird ways that you wouldn't even use them. Like, I don't know if you remember, I remember when pressing on the leg, like chest

pressing on the leg press was a thing. Right. Right. So all these weird things and then they're just pressing on the hammer strength row. Yeah. That's good. I like that. And it's going to go from that to like, wait, you're telling me I'm just going to do like the barbell bench press and then I'm going to do a dumbbell press. And then I'm going to do maybe some flies and like some triceps, a few sets of each. There's no way this is going to work. It's funny. I've heard that from clients too. It's like they hire me and then I give them a program, but they're used to being on kind of like a program, like you said, a ton of volume, a lot of junk volume, 10 exercises, and you give them something very basic and, but effective, super effective.

And like, oh man, this isn't what I expected. I'm like, well, then why did you hire me? If you just wanted me to give you what you've already been doing, that obviously is not working. I mean, we could take what you're doing and maybe randomize the exercises and then I can give that back to you if you want. Yeah. Well, hey, this was a great discussion, Kyle. Really appreciate you taking the time. And why don't we wrap up again with, let's tell people about your new book that is coming out very soon and anything else that you want people to know about where they can find you and your

work if you have a new project that you're working on that you want people to know about where they can find you and your work? If you have a new project that you're working on that you want people to know about? Yeah. Yeah. Well, for starters, yeah. Thanks for having me on the show. I have a podcast too, that Mike's been on. It's called the absolute strength podcast. You can find that anywhere podcasts are downloaded and listened to my new book is strength training for beginners. It's, it's a book that I think is going to be great for the time because I designed it. So a lot of people are training from home. A lot of people bought new equipment to train at home. And everything in the book can be done with a simple at-home gym. So like barbell, squat, bench, that's pretty much all you need for it. And it's a strength-based routine,

but it's not just a maximal strength. That's something else we didn't really talk about. But when we're talking strength, I mean, there's relative strength. So your strength improving with compared to your body weight. Now, obviously, absolute strength, maximal strength. And we try to cover everything in the book. You can get that on Amazon. Yeah, you can follow me at Hunt Fitness on all social medias and the website's kylehuntfitness.com. Awesome, man.

Well, thanks again. And I look forward to our next chat. For sure, man. I think, yeah, I got to have you on the show next. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did, and you don't mind doing me a favor, please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to me from in whichever app you're listening to me in because that not only convinces people that they should check out the show,

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