Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Laura Kummerle on Ninja Warrior Training, Bodyweight Workouts, and Rehabbing Injuries

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

In this podcast, I chat with physical therapist, Dr. Laura Kummerle, about a variety of subjects, including Ninja Warrior Training, the benefits of bodyweight training, how to train around repetitive stress injuries (and when to see a physical therapist), and more. In case you’re not familiar with Laura, she’s a former collegiate gymnast turned full-time orthopedic physical therapist who received her Doctor of Physical Therapy from the University of Florida. She also completed an orthopedic residency, making her an OSC (orthopedic clinical specialist). Laura not only has the educational background, but she competed in season 11 of American Ninja Warrior, so she knows a thing or two about the practical application of calisthenics, as well. Beyond that, she posts her unique, gymnastics- and ninja-inspired workouts on her Instagram, and we’re happy to have her on the team as a Legion Athlete. So without further ado, if you want to learn how to train like a Ninja Warrior (and what that even is), what bodyweight exercises you should be doing, how to train around repetitive stress injuries, and a whole lot more, you’re going to like this podcast! Timestamps: 9:40 - How do you train for ninja warrior? What does ninja training look like? 10:51 - How do you program the training for Ninja Warrior? 12:09 - What's commonly used for grip training? 12:30 - How common are ninja gyms? Where can you find them? 14:26 - How much training is required to be a Ninja Warrior? How quickly can you become "good" at Ninja Warrior? 17:41 - Who can benefit from bodyweight exercise? 19:50 - What are the benefits of focusing on mobility, control, and strength at end ranges of a movement? 20:42 - What bodyweight exercises should you include in addition to strength training? 22:52 - What should you do if your knees move inward while squatting? 26:25 - What cues have you found helpful for correcting form issues? 27:28 - What upper body bodyweight exercises do you recommend? 27:45 - What are the benefits of handstands? 31:13 - What is "end range" of an exercise? 31:43 - What other bodyweight exercises should people consider doing? 32:58 - How do you program cossack squats? 40:18 - The benefits of mirrors and taking video of your sets 44:50 - How do you work around repetitive stress injuries? 48:18 - When should you go see a physical therapist? 56:16 - How do you address knee pain? 58:40 - What should you do when you get an RSI? 1:00:23 - Should you train a non-injured side to maintain muscle? 1:00:38 - What are neurological crossover effects? Mentioned on the Show: Books by Mike Matthews: https://legionathletics.com/products/books/ Laura’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/paradigmofperfection/ Laura’s website: https://paradigmofperfection.com/

Hey there, and welcome to another episode of Muscle for Life. I am Mike Matthews, and I thank you for joining me today to hear my little chat with Dr. Laura Kumerle. And we talk about a variety of things. We talk about Ninja Warrior training, which she has firsthand experience with, of course. We talk about the benefits of body weight training, how to train around repetitive stress injuries, as well as when to see a physical therapist,

and more. And in case you're not familiar with Laura, she is a former collegiate gymnast turned full-time orthopedic physical therapist. And if you follow her on Instagram, if you just search for her last name, It's pretty unique. She will come up. It's spelled K-U-M-M-E-R-L-E. You'll see that she posts a lot of unique gymnastic and ninja warrior training inspired workouts. And she is a part of hashtag Team Legion and an example of the perfect fit for the type of person we want to work with.

She's educated and she's passionate and she helps a lot of people get fitter and stronger. And so if you want to learn how to train like a ninja warrior and what that even looks like, if you want to learn about some bodyweight exercises that you can incorporate into your training regimen profitably, as well as a physical therapist's take on training around repetitive stress injuries and not making them worse. Because that's step one. If you have a repetitive stress injury, you have to figure out how to not continually aggravate it without just sitting on the couch all day and doing nothing. And then you have to figure out how to not continually aggravate it without just sitting on the couch all day and doing nothing. And then you have to figure out how to make it better. But fortunately,

many times, if you can just figure out the first part, if you can just figure out how to stop pissing your shoulder off or your knee off or your hip off or whatever, the second part, the resolution of the problem follows naturally. So if any of that has piqued your interest, I think you are going to like this episode. Also, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one bestselling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever.

And you can find them on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes & Noble stores. And I should also mention that you can get any of the audiobooks 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And this is a great way to make those pockets of downtime, like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning, more interesting, entertaining, and productive. And so if you want to take Audible up on this offer, and if you want to get one of my audio books for free, just go to www.buylegion.com and sign up for your account. So again, if you appreciate my work and if you want to see more of it, and if you want to learn

time-proven and evidence-based strategies for losing fat, building muscle, and getting healthy, and strategies that work for anyone and everyone, regardless of age or circumstances, please do consider picking up one of my best-selling books, Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women, and The Shredded Chef for my favorite fitness-friendly recipes. Hey, Laura. Hey, how are you doing? Pretty good. Pretty good. Just like I was telling you before we recorded, settled into my new spot in Florida. And I didn't think I would ever move back to Florida, at least not for a long time, but here I am. And it's hot. It's Florida and it's summer. Lots of rain in the afternoon.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think where I'm at, so I'm in Ocala, I think it's even more of a thing here than where I grew up. I grew up in the Tampa Bay area and the temperature is consistently a little bit lower, but you know, it's like three, four, maybe five degrees. I guess I'll take it. But it's, you know, does it feel like 105 or 101? Eh. Yep. It feels like the pits of hell. Yeah. So I actually went to the University of Florida.

So I'm very familiar with the weather around there. Yep. Yep. But otherwise, I like the area. there. Yep. Yep. But, uh, otherwise I like the area. I prefer this, uh, little spot in Florida over where I grew up because where I grew up has water and beaches and that's what brings people to the whole Tampa Bay area. But I never really cared too much about the water or the beach. Like, eh, I did some wakeboarding when I was younger. That was fun. I lived on the beach for a bit. I guess that was cool. It's pretty, but where I'm at now is not your typical Florida, just flat swamp, palm trees. There's a little bit of undulation actually reminds me a little

bit of where I came from. Virginia, not as much undulation. You don't have mountains there, but it's very green here in Ocala and you do have, uh, I guess you could call them hills. And this is, uh, it's a, my first experience being a rural person, I guess, living on a farm. Yep. That'll be an exciting adventure though. So yeah yeah it's i i prefer it i went from the dc suburbs and i i learned that suburban living and i just don't think it's really for me and uh dc suburbs definitely not for me yeah traffic yeah yeah, among other issues. But anyway, thanks again for taking the time to do this. And I wanted to talk to you about a couple of things that I have not written or spoken about at all. So that's always fun for me and the listeners.

And then one thing that I have spoken about, I have written about, I have had other people on the podcast to talk about, but it's always helpful to have other experts share their thoughts. And that's working around injuries, rehabbing injuries, and particularly repetitive stress injuries. But let's start with the new stuff. Let's start with training for a Ninja Warrior competition. And maybe you want to start with explaining why I'm asking you about that. So I actually competed on season 11 of American Ninja Warrior. So that was an amazing experience. Lots of fun. Unfortunately, they did not air my run. So I have yet to see it. Um, Oh, you didn't even get footage.

Correct. I did not get footage. Um, but, um, I'm kind of okay with it because my excuse was I needed shoulder surgery at the time. So I wasn't able to prepare as much as I wanted to. Um, so now that I've since had that shoulder surgery and recovered from that. Um, hopefully I will have another chance in the future, um, for some sort of ninja competition. So we'll see about that. How do you, I've, I've only seen, I don't know if I've watched a whole episode of, uh, there are probably multiple shows now like that, but I of course know what it entails, but how do you make it onto one of those shows? Or maybe it's just one show. I'm not too familiar with the space.

Yeah. So American Ninja Warrior, they have like their traditional ones. They actually now have a junior one. They have team ones. So there's variations of the Ninja Warrior series. But essentially, you apply and then you get selected to compete in like a regional qualifier and then basically like a hundred people or so compete and only I think like eight to ten get aired. So there's actually a lot more competition going on behind the scenes.

And the ones that get aired, those are the people who do the best, I'm assuming? scenes. And the ones that get aired, those are the people who do the best, I'm assuming? Or have the best story or have a good reaction from a family member in the crowd or things like that. You have to remember it's a reality TV show as well. First and foremost, it's entertainment. Yes, correct. And how did you do in your run? So I actually ended up falling on the second obstacle. It was a dynamic upper body obstacle and your shoulder wouldn't shoulder. Yes, to some extent. And I think it was more so the lack of being able to train because of that injury. The obstacle specifically, because I can do a fair amount in my apartment, but at some point you do need to go to a ninja gym and train. And where I currently live, the closest ninja gym is over an hour away.

So with at the time being in a postdoctoral residency program, working full time, it was a bit hard to get over there as well. So I'm apparently full of excuses today about that. Um, but that's kind of the situation that I was in at the time. Yeah. I could pull the boomer card on you and tell you, you should have worked harder. What's wrong with you? Yes. So definitely probably could have done better, but, um, priorities at the time as well. So, yeah. So what is the training for that type of thing look like? So obviously you have to have like a good base of strength, body awareness, um, and things like that before you even start training for it. Um, and then it's really what Stan makes it stand out compared to other types of training

is I would say probably like the power focus, especially with the upper body. So you have to do like dynamic things like which is like swinging from one bar to another or one ring to another or something like that which a lot of even upper body sports don't require um so it's hanging and swinging from things um and then you also have to have the specific obstacle training because unlike other things, you are running across objects that move or things like that. So you don't really get that exposure to that stimulus any other way besides that obstacle training. And it's hard to mimic that with other trainings. And then obviously you also have to have like a cardio base because you're going from one obstacle to another.

Um, and then obviously you also have to have like a cardio base cause you're going from one obstacle to another. And especially like the grip endurance, um, can also play a role too, especially towards the end of the run. And how do you program all of that into, let's just say a week, like, I'm sure that that's probably the general approach is, or, or is the, is the training, uh, block longer than that? Is it a two weekweek block that then repeats? And what kind of stuff are you doing?

Are you doing some weightlifting or just traditional strength training for that base of strength and force? And of course, that translates into power. And then supplementing that with more specificity. Yeah. So I would definitely say it varies a lot from person to person. I would probably say most people have some sort of basic strength program that they're following, and then they can incorporate a little bit more specific grip work and obstacle training a couple times a week. I know people sometimes go, it really depends on more so the access that they have,

unfortunately, to a ninja gym or some other setup like that. The ninja gym, I'm assuming is where you go for the specific obstacle training. Yes. So they'll have obstacles set up. They'll have the warped wall and things like that. And then there's actually a fair amount of people now that have like setups in their backyard of a couple obstacles or things like that. So people also do that too. Yeah, that makes sense. And for grip training, what is commonly done?

So I would say a fair amount of ninjas actually also do rock climbing. Yeah. So that'll work the grip or similar grip exercises to what rock climbers would do, whether it's like the hangboard, um, or things like that. And for somebody, I just, again, this is a, this might be a dumb question, but I just don't know enough about the, I didn't even know there is such a thing as a ninja gym. Um, but, uh, is this something that is even remotely accessible to, let's say, just, uh, somebody listening, let's say they're fit. Uh, they're pretty strong. They have good

cardio and it sounds like fun to them. You mentioned there are regional qualifiers and, and then you can work your way up. Is it even feasible for somebody listening to say, you know, that sounds like fun. Um, just like how they could say, you know, that Spartan race sounds like fun. I'm going to train a little bit for that and see if I can, you know, do something in a Spartan race. So I would definitely say there are, or ninja gyms are more common in cities. So I know Tampa, for example, has a couple, I know Raleigh, North Carolina has a couple, and like those bigger cities like that are going to be more likely to have a specific gym for that. And there are also things that you can kind of rig up at home too. So if you want to

incorporate some like grip work, you can, like they have hang boards or things like that. This is probably not the norm. But I did build a salmon ladder myself. So you can always build obstacles if you are also kind of into woodworking and things like that. So a lot of people do that as well if they're not in an area that has a ninja gym. And then even with competitions, it's not necessarily just Ninja Warrior. There are ninja leagues as well that you can do a competition with just locally too. Yeah. That's cool.

So the answer then would be yes, if somebody's listening and they're just like a fit person and this sounds like fun. yes if if somebody's listening and they're just like a fit person and this sounds like fun with how much training do you think again let's assume the person listening they lift weights they do some sort of cardio maybe they play a sport so maybe they have some athletic or some athleticism as well but they've never done any any ninja ninja stuff, uh, how much training specifically for that would you say it takes to where you could have fun with it? And if I'm thinking of myself, if I were to do it, I wouldn't have delusions of grandeur about, you know, being on national television. Uh, but I would, if, if I couldn't get at least good or at least decent, like by my standards, which would mean, um, maybe compete

in some little league and not just be dead last by a country mile, uh, then I wouldn't be interested. And, and so if you were to tell me, yeah, Mike, so you're pretty fit, dude, you have cardio, you have strength. If you were to train, if you had access to a ninja gym and you could train for a couple of months, um, you could put a ninja gym and you could train for a couple of months, you could put a few hours a week into it for a couple of months, then you would be good enough to have some fun with it. And you could go participate in a league. Is that, do you think that's, that's realistic or is it, is it a lot harder than that? Um, so it depends, I guess, from person to person. So what I would say is what makes like ninja as a sport

stand out is the community aspect of it, because it is such a new sport. The community is amazing. So you'll go into a ninja gym, everyone will be supporting everyone. And that makes it a lot of fun, no matter how good you are. So I think just day one and going in and having fun as the goal is really what makes ninja stand out and makes it accessible to really anyone. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. That makes sense. It's not how I'm just wired. I'm such a performance kind of goal-oriented person, but there are certain things that people would say are fun. Like take golf. I think golf is fun, but that's because I'm okay at it. I wouldn't even say I'm good by objective standards. I'm good enough to have fun, but I do warn people who they'll

hear that I play golf and be like, oh, maybe I'll come play golf with you. I'm like, I'm just warning you. It is really not fun. It takes a bit of work to even get good enough to have fun. Like in the beginning, you're not even going to hit the ball. You're not going to have a good time. I'm just warning you. But it sounds like this is not that. Yeah. At least with my experience going into a ninja gym for the first time, Yeah, at least with my experience going into a ninja gym for the first time, I just felt very at home, supportive people. If you ask a question like, what's the technique for this obstacle, someone and building that strength or doing something hanging on from like a ledge as well. So you can scale it based on where you're at too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like fun. So let's move on to the next thing I want to talk to you about, which is body weight exercises that you think, maybe not everyone, I'm going to let you

tell who you think can benefit from including body weight exercises in their training routine, and maybe who would benefit less or who it would make no sense for. And this would be specifically for people like me and a lot of the people listening who primarily lift weights, primarily just do a lot of barbell and dumbbell work. My training does involve a couple of body weight exercises here and there. I'll do some pull-ups or chin-ups in a training cycle. Usually one of those are going to be in a workout somewhere. I'll rotate dips in and out and a few others, but most of the work that I do, 90 to 95% barbell dumbbell. And that's probably also the case for a lot of people listening. So I'm just curious as to your

thoughts on how people like me and the rest of us can benefit from maybe a little bit more body weight training and it could be included in the strength training workouts or it could be done separately or or some other type of setup yeah so i think body weight exercises themselves are part of like fundamental movements so just as you can do things with weight, you can do things without weight. So you can have variations of like squats, lunges, carries, pulls, pushes, and all different planes. Um, and you can progress them in different ways to make them harder for body weight specifically. So instead of just doing a squat, you can do a pistol squat, um, just, and focusing on full range and the control aspect

of it versus just lifting as much as you can um so you can focus more on mobility um and more strength at end ranges to some extent versus with weights you are typically just going in a like mid-range sometimes every once in a while you go end range, but you can go a little bit deeper and focusing on that control and the quality of the movement with body weight exercises. And practically speaking, what's the benefit of doing that? So you want to be able to move in any way that life requires you to, if that makes sense. So for example, if your lats are tight and you can't reach overhead all the way, that might become a limiting factor in daily life or even working out

with what you want to do. So being able to maintain that range and have strength through that range can also reduce injury as well. Because if you don't have the balance between the mobility and the strength and the flexibility, that's where things like overuse injuries or even acute injury, it can predispose you to an acute injury as well and things like that. So it just provides a little bit more balance to your training. And do you have some specific examples of bodyweight exercises that you like to include in addition to your strength training work or that you think people who do a lot of strength training should consider including and and why i mean you mentioned pistol squats is that one that you would

include or is that just an example of that was more so just an example yeah just an example that's kind of unique that you can't do otherwise. Yeah. Another thing could be like a Cossack squat. So a deep lateral lunge to some extent, getting that end range control, end range hip, knee, ankle mobility. And then also you're having a pretty good stretch on your adductors or the inside of your thigh is another example of

more advanced body weight exercise that can be modified with the depth based on your level. And that can be a different movement pattern than someone normally does as well. Other examples, I mean, the pistol squat as well can be another example because you need a lot of ankle mobility for that just for the depth and the knee and the hip as well that can that is a common limiting factor on any sort of squat that many people don't realize they don't realize that it's not their hamstrings that are limiting them. It's actually their ankles can't move enough to allow them to reach depth properly. And they can only get to depth

if they have plates under their feet, for example. Yeah. And then even like going back to the pistol squat, it can demonstrate some weakness in the hip as well if your like knee falls inward and it can highlight some areas to work on to improve overall patterns, um, and can help you progress. Even your squat, for an example, if you notice with a pistol squat, your knee falls inward, it's like, okay, maybe I need to work on lateral hip stability. So sides of the hip strength and then

that can potentially help you break through a plateau in your squatting yeah as well yeah absolutely and anybody listening if you're squatting and you're feeling your your knees start to to move inward which is generally what happens is you get deeper into a set and it's getting harder. If you consciously engage your hip muscles to keep those knees in line with your toes, just pointing a little bit out, don't let them move in at all. You'll probably notice that your performance actually is a little bit better by engaging those muscles that allow you to spread your legs, you can generate a little bit more force in the exercise. And I still have to pay attention to that myself. If the weight is pretty heavy, and again, let's say it's my third or fourth set, and I'm within a couple of reps of my rep target, which is going to be fairly close to failure. I sometimes have to feel like I am forcing my knees outward, but they're actually not moving.

They're just staying in place. And I know because I'm on camera, I record all my workouts and post them on Instagram. So I can look at my form to see what I did versus what it felt like I was doing. And that that's still something I have to pay attention to. Yeah. And I think anyone at all levels, especially when they're pushing themselves towards their max, that's a very common form or like a break in form, if that makes sense. So totally. And just a little tip for people when you are trying to fix different elements of of your technique and this applies in my experience to any athletic activity you you often have to exaggerate whatever it is that you're trying to correct so if your knees do tend to buckle inward as you get deeper into a set, especially the way it's heavy, then you're, you're going to have to feel like you are spreading your legs by, you know, uh, that you're pushing

your knees to several inches outside of their starting position just to get them to stay still. And, you know, I've gone through a lot of that in learning golf, another good example, because the proper golf swing is not how you would naturally and instinctively swing a golf club. Instinctively, you kind of swing it like actually coming down at the ball. You have to externally rotate your, the, the, what's called the trail arm, the arm that is, if you're, if you're a righty, then it would be your right arm. If you're a lefty, it's your left. And you have to internally rotate your, your lead arm and you have to, uh, keep your, your, your lead arm, uh, on your chest. And it's just, it's just a weird movement. And to, to learn it, I've had to try to over-exaggerate that movement to where I'm

feeling like I'm externally rotating to the point where I'm going to like break my shoulder. And then I go on camera and that is just enough to make it look right. So the same thing applies to weightlifting and correcting any element of the form that doesn't just easily resolve. The solution, in my experience, has generally been to just exaggerate whatever it is that you're supposed to be doing. Try to do it five times more than you should. And then you may actually get to where you should be. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. The exaggeration can be used and you can also use other like external cues. So like for the example of the squat, you can also use a band around your knees to push into the band outward to exaggerate that movement as well.

Yeah, that's a good one. I haven't done that before, but, um, that, that is, uh, makes sense. And, and I mean, I can think to golf and different training aids that, that provide external cues. Are there any other examples of external cues or even internal cues that, uh, you found helpful just for correcting common technique faults? Um, also thinking about almost corkscrewing the feet into the ground for a squat. So that'll cue your hip external rotators to come on. Um, and kind of almost turning it. You're not actually turning your feet out, but you are trying to simulate that motion. Um, and that'll help cue those hips to come on to help that control as well. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Um, so coming back to body weight exercises, are there any upper body body weight exercises that you

particularly like, uh, for the same reasons that you, you like a couple of the lower body ones that you've shared? Um, I personally am probably a little bit biased towards handstands. Um, but we can also, um, talk about like pull-ups as well. Well, do you think that there are benefits? I mean, I can't do a handstand. I can do it on a wall. I've done it to like demonstrate handstand pushups but are there benefits to learning how to do a proper handstand?

It depends really on your goals. I think there can be depending on the person. You do need adequate shoulder motion and control and strength and body awareness, which can be helpful depending what your goals are. or maybe even some weightlifting, like let's say some overhead pressing, like maybe Olympic-type movements or maybe even a standing press of some kind? That can potentially be because it is working that overhead strength and stability and control. So if you can do a handstand, you are controlling your body weight on your hands versus a barbell, especially when you're pressing heavier weight. Um, you might have a little bit more control at that end range. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, is big with any kind of standing press because, uh, slight inefficiencies

can make it a lot harder. Like you can lose a couple of reps per set, uh, with just minor problems in, in the movement pattern, just because it's, it's just one of the most difficult exercises, uh, to, you know, 135 pounds overhead for, for anybody, unless, unless we're talking about a 275 pound strong man, but, uh, for but for the rest of us being able to press 135, like if you can press 135 for 10 or so, that is very strong. Whereas on the bench press for a guy, you know, most guys could do that probably within their first couple of months. Yeah. And I think it's very interesting coaching people on handstands specifically, you realize how many people don't actually have full shoulder motion. So that's like common reason why you see low shape errors, like the banana back handstands and things like that, where you have an arch in your back and your ribcage is sticking out.

And it's not because of core control, like a lot of people think it's really just shoulder range of motion and and how does that work exactly what's the problem so because if you can't get your arms directly over your head so 180 degrees of shoulder flexion so your arms and your mid-back are in one line then your shoulders are going to be a little bit closed because you're going to have an angle there and then your hips and your back is when i want to compensate so you're going to be a little bit closed because you're going to have an angle there. And then your hips and your back is when I want to compensate. So you're going to have a little bit of an arch in your back. Yeah. To adjust the center of gravity. So you try to find your balance. Right. And that's important for overhead pressing. Correct.

All types of overhead pressing. If you can't get your head through the window, it's kind of the cue and get that weight directly overhead you're never going to be as strong as you can be and then you can also say end range of pull-ups as well too um because getting that the scapular control especially at that end range um people can be limited to if they're not if they don't have that end range shoulder motion and so you're talking here at the at the bottom of the pull-up just for people maybe if if they uh if they don't understand or just they haven't heard that term end range maybe you want to share just quickly what does that mean yeah so end range is just um at the end of your range of motion so towards um maximal

overhead reaching for example or like at the bottom of a pull-up, your arms are directly over your head. Yeah. As opposed to the top of the pull-up. Because some people might think, well, those are both end points of sorts. Those are technically ends, yes. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

But end range joint motion, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Any other body weight exercises that you think people should consider? Like, uh, I, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be a body weight per se. It depends, I guess, um, on how strong somebody is or where they're at in their training. Um, but I am a big proponent of lunge exercises simply because they involve training the hips in the way that they're naturally made to move. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

And then again, any other body weight exercises that people should consider, including in their predominantly just kind of barbell, dumbbell, you know, get bigger, get stronger kind of training? Yeah. you know, get bigger, get stronger kind of training. Yeah. So I definitely, I like lunges because they progress towards single leg stuff, which requires a little bit more hip stability and hip control and looking from a clinician perspective and just observing what movements people normally do. A lot of people don't do as much lateral or side stepping work, whether it's in daily life or in the gym. And that can cause, um, hip knee back, um, issues as well. Um, so that's just from a overall health perspective that can be good. How would you program? You had mentioned Cossack squats, I believe. Yeah. So Cossack squats can be used. Um, I really, honestly,

for lateral hip stability, I like single leg RDLs. So just that single leg hip hinge motion, um, and focusing on keeping those hips square towards the ground. So your hip bones are facing towards the ground. That'll really, I personally find that, um, really hits your side of the hip pretty well. Also things like lateral lunges, even like banded sidestepping as like a burner or like superset, depending on what you're doing as well. And so these would be probably treat these like accessory exercises. You would do them later in a workout after you've already done your heavy, hard stuff. And overall, just from a training perspective, looking at what movements

that you typically do. And I like to use like the phrase of like a movement diet. So like, just like with your nutritional diet, you want to have a variety. So looking at movement, so are you doing a lot of frontal plane, so forward and back, or like side to side motions for the frontal plane, things like that. So incorporating all different planes, all different types of movements, just to get a little bit of that movement diet. And if that makes sense, and that'll help reduce injury risk as well. Yeah. I like that concept.

And, and depending on the exercises you're choosing, you'll probably gain muscle and strength faster too. I mean, that's been shown just in terms of using a variety of weightlifting exercises, training muscles in different directions, through different ranges of motion at different angles. The evidence does seem to support that that approach to training is ultimately more effective than using fewer, which is one of my, one of the points of my case for including isolation exercises in strength training. Because of course, there are many people though, who would say, nah, if you're doing your big barbell work and maybe there's some chin-ups in there, maybe there's some barbell curls, maybe there are some dumbbell rows, maybe. But if you are really focusing on your big compound exercises, everything else is kind of superfluous. reasons, but one of them is this point that there, there are several studies that have shown that again, this point of training muscles in different ways, it doesn't just make your training more

interesting, which is another one of the reasons why I think it's worth doing actually, but, but, but technically it appears to be more effective. Yeah. And even with those like compound lifts and things like that, sometimes you don't notice compensations that your body is doing over time. So for example, like in a squat, you might be using like your hamstrings more than your glutes and doing those accessory exercises might help maintain that glute work and other things like that. So it can just provide overall balance in training too. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number

one best-selling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. You know, I, a couple of years ago became aware of a muscle imbalance. Really, it was like, it's kind of an entire side of my body when I was squatting. What I would tend to do is as I would get deeper into sets and it's getting harder, I would tend to lean a little bit more to my right and I'm right-handed, right-legged, right-footed. And so that was just my, my inclination was to go to my, my stronger side. And I mean, it was subtle, which is why I didn't notice it until I started noticing that my right leg was just generally sore from, from lower body training than my left.

And so then I started paying attention and realized like, oh yeah, I am shifting. If I were on, what do they call, what do they call them? Pressure pads. Again, I know them from golf. But if I were on a device where I could see- Force plates. Yeah, force plates. There you go.

So if I were on force plates, I would have seen definitely a shift. Maybe it would have only been, you know, 60, 40. I don't think it would have been as dramatic as 70, 30 or 80, 20, but that slight difference by, by putting a bit more pressure on my right and demanding a bit more from my right side over the course of months. Again, I started to notice like yeah i am pretty consistently i'm a little bit more sore on my right and i also actually now that i remember i remembered a little bit more quad definition and just development on my right side uh compared to my left so um with with exercises that would be more traditionally thought of as accessory or isolation lower body, like take a split squat, for example, um, you can't have that problem with it or a lunge. You can't have that problem with

it. And for people who, um, are, are curious how I corrected it, it was paying attention on my bilateral, my, my, my leg press and my squat and so forth, just paying attention to not do it. And I did have to exaggerate. So I had to feel like as it was getting hard that I was preferring my left side, but I knew in fact I was not. That's actually just what balanced feels like. And because I had gotten used to imbalanced, but thought I was balanced. And then with the bilateral kind of isolation exercises, starting with my weaker leg. So starting with my left leg and then ending the sets on that leg, as opposed to starting with my strong leg. And then my strong leg would consistently get a little bit more training, a little bit more stimulus because as I come into

like rep nine or 10 or whatever, and then I get it with my right leg because with an isolation exercise, I'm generally going to go pretty close to failure. Maybe not to failure, but I'm going to probably be within one rep a bit. Whereas on my compound exercises, I'll probably leave, generally I'm leaving one good rep left, maybe two good reps. Whereas again, isolation, I don't mind pushing up to where I will fail on the next rep. And so what would happen if I started with my strong limb is I may end up actually failing on my weaker limb because I figure like, okay, um, I think I have one good rep left here on my strong limb. And then I go to do it on my week and I can't even do it. So now

my stronger limb got a little bit more training. So I flipped it around and I would start those sets with my weaker limb and let them lead. Um, and so what would ha what happened in the beginning is I was ending sets with, let's say one good rep left, maybe zero good reps left, not to failure, but like I'm very close on my weaker limb, but I still felt like I had a couple reps left in my stronger limb and that's okay. So I think it's a, it's a helpful tip for people who are looking to correct muscle imbalances or, or just prevent them. Yes, definitely. And then also like when you're doing a bilateral exercise, you can also use like a mirror or even video feedback just to check your form as well. Yeah.

Yeah. It can be tricky though. Like in the case of what I just described, I don't know if I would have seen it because I wasn't, it wasn't even a lateral shift of the hips. I mean, if it was, it was very slight. Maybe I would have seen it if I really would have paid attention, but it was mostly something that was a matter of feeling it, you know? Gotcha. Yeah. And it sometimes just takes as well, like a fairly good trained eye.

So like as a physical therapist, I look at people's movement patterns on a daily basis and things like that. So and you kind of, to some extent, have to point out. So like I'll sometimes break out the mirror when someone's relearning a squat after, for example, a knee injury. And you kind of have to point out, it's like, oh yeah, I am shifting over to the other side. And then like you mentioned, over-exaggerating going onto that side. And so using that cueing can also help in addition to that verbal cueing too. Yep. Yep. Um, and for people listening, if you haven't videoed yourself doing, I'd say it's probably most useful with the more technically demanding exercises. I'm not sure if you're going to benefit much from like a lat pull down video maybe. Um, but the it's, it's pretty simple. Just kind of pull it straight down and, down and don't lean back too much and get it to your collarbone. Okay, good job. But with the more technical exercises, if you haven't ever videoed yourself from a few different angles, or if you haven't done it in as complicated as, I don't know, a pole vault or like hitting a

fastball, uh, or a golf swing, but there is enough technicality to it that what you feel like you're doing can actually not be what you're doing. And you'll never catch the, in your technique unless you actually see what you're doing. So it's useful to take your phone. I mean, I have a little tripod with articulated arms that I can just wrap around things. And I mean, I do it just to post workouts to social media, to show people that I practice what I preach. But if I, if I weren't doing that, I still would video, not all of my workouts, but on a fairly regular basis, I would just take some footage of my squatting, my deadlifting, my overhead pressing, my bench pressing, that's probably all. And, and just see how does it look?

Can I, can I improve anything? Is there anything that's obviously not right? And that just can be helpful for, uh, for, for everybody, especially as you get more experienced, the weights start getting pretty heavy and it gets, uh, it gets harder to maintain good form. Yeah, definitely. And then even, um, looking at different angles too. Um, so like looking from like the back of your squat versus the side of your squat can show different things. Um, and like, even with like a pull-up looking at your shoulder blades, um, and how symmetrical they are, um, can be helpful too. And if they're not in that case, cause that's an interesting point. What does that indicate and what should somebody do? So it can indicate weakness on one side versus

the other. So if you're kind of shrugging your shoulder up, then it can be just like the muscles that stabilize your shoulder blade can be weak or some some other it could also be like range of motion you're compensating for that too um it can be quite a number of different factors which is kind of hard to say what exactly but um you do want a symmetrical smooth shoulder blade motion in the pull up and lat pull down for example it also can just be a bad habit, right? Yes, also that. That's most of the things that I've corrected in the form for the big exercises for me were just, yeah, just bad habits. I just had learned it a little bit incorrectly early on and wasn't on camera and then did a bunch of reps incorrectly. So just kind of ingrained that muscle memory and then had to unlearn it. So let's talk about this, this last thing I wanted to get your

insights on and that's working around injuries. And I think we should talk specifically about repetitive stress injuries because acute injuries are in some ways easier to work around because you have to, because you can't just push through it. It's too painful. Whereas with repetitive stress injuries, and I've made this mistake, I'm sure you have, I've gotten better with it. I can say that. It's very easy to just keep going and figure, it'll probably get better. And it doesn't get better. It gets a little bit worse and a little bit worse until finally you're forced to do something. But how do you approach avoiding, like not letting it get that far? And then if it does, for whatever reason,

what do you do next? So I often it's looking at the movement patterns and noticing slight variations in that. So like you mentioned the squat earlier, shifting to the side that can potentially down the line lead to whether it's like a hip, knee, something going on there. So maintaining proper form during your exercises. And then if you do notice you're like, oh, I feel, for example, like my shoulder during a pull up, video it and see if you notice any asymmetries, anything that you're doing slightly differently from side to side. And then see if you can correct that. And if you need a second opinion, whether it's like a coach at that point, or even a physical therapist, if you're not able to self address those things, that might be an opportunity. Because you want to prevent things before they become big issues.

And that'll save you on training time. Yeah, I mean, getting a form check every so often, if you're taking the videos, is probably worth it. So long as the price is reasonable. Definitely. Because it shouldn't take much time if the coach is experienced and if they offer that. Which is something that I've had a note that it may make sense for Legion to start offering because we have a coaching program that does quite well and we have a lot of clients and we have a lot of great success stories. And I've thought that that may be a, I mean, it wouldn't be much of a moneymaker, but that's

not really the point. It's just helpful for people to get another set of eyes, an expert set of eyes on what they're doing just to confirm. And especially to this point, you're making preventatively. I think it makes a lot of sense as opposed to waiting for there to be a problem. And now you're trying to figure out what's wrong. And now you're trying to train around it. You're trying not to make it worse. Right. And that's part of the reason I actually do offer like movement screens. So you can focus on a specific body part for a specific exercise that you want to improve. So if it's like, I've had people come for their squats and

they had a slight lateral shift and we were able to address that, know what's going on there. Here's some exercises to address that. And it's just on there. Here's some exercises to address that. And it's just like a quick, basically assessment, see where you're at and know how to fix those things. And it's more of a giving you the tools to do that going forward. Yep. That makes sense. So that can definitely be helpful.

Another thing is if it does become an issue, seeking care from a physical therapist. So if you are in the United States, some states do have direct access where you can go directly to a physical therapist without seeing a doctor first. Obviously, it's going to depend on the country and state that you're in. But looking at those things, you might be able to just walk into a local physical therapist office, set up an appointment and go from there. At what point would you say it makes sense to do that? And the reason why I ask is I agree. And I did that myself when I was having biceps tendon problems and like in the bicep little groove and it just wasn't going away. And I wanted to just work with somebody who knows more about anatomy and, and the musculature and how it works than I do.

Let's just get to a resolution quickly because it was really annoying. Looking back, I should have probably done it sooner. I was stubborn and just kept on trying to train through it. I've had this discussion with personal friends, even who have like one, my brother-in-law is having some shoulder issues right now. And I'm like, dude, go see a physical therapist. Like just, you want to know what's going on because it may be relatively insignificant or it may be significant. You may have a small tear in a muscle and you don't want to just lay off of it for two weeks and then see what happens when you load it again. And he hasn't taken my advice yet. And I understand, again, I was the same way

previously, but now going forward, i would be much quicker to go see somebody if there was a a problem that i couldn't resolve on my own with the obvious kind of just home remedies you know what i mean i mean and that question is very nuanced because you have a ton of different factors going in for different people so like finances are going to play a huge role with medical care, access to quality professionals. So if you're in more of a rural area, you might have someone who's in your big in the gym, whether it's just daily, like lifting for health, or if you're competing in like CrossFit, for example, you might not have access to a provider that knows as much about that sport or like your goals as you would like. Typically in a bigger city, it's easier to have more options. And then you also have,

is your insurance accepted and things like that, especially in the United States there specifically. Let's assume those aren't issues though. Yeah. So in an ideal world, I would probably say once you start noticing something and it doesn't go away or start improving within, depending on how frequently you're doing activity, a week or two, I would go ahead and get it checked out. I mean, the worst case scenario is, nope, you're good. Just give it a little bit more time, continue what you're doing,

and it's peace of mind. Now, what about the severity though? Yeah. Because just to give an example, a couple of months ago, I was noticing that my, so when I was getting back into golfing, because I was out of it for a bit and I was getting back into it. And golf is a, it's a very asymmetrical sport. The swing is very asymmetrical. And so, you know, stresses different parts of the body in different ways. And so I started to notice that my left forearm was just kind of irritated and my left biceps a little bit irritated. And so, um, what I did was I just modified my pulling. So, um, if I, if I had my, my palm facing down and I was pulling it, just my, my, my form and my biceps, they just didn't like it. But if my palms were facing each other, it felt totally fine. And so I just stopped doing the thing that was

aggravating it. And, uh, it was probably three or four weeks of, um, of it wasn't, it wasn't even really to the level of, I guess you could say it was pain, but I'd give it like a, maybe two or three out of 10. It was, it was just a little bit annoying. I just didn't want it to turn into an actual problem, but it did take several weeks and I had to, let's see, I also on my, my biceps curling, I believe, um, I had to modify, I'm trying to remember. Cause again, it was months ago. Um, it was having my, my forearms, I believe allowing them to bow inward a little bit as I was raising the weight helped. I don't remember exactly, but it took several weeks, at least four weeks for it to go away, but it did go away. And so in that case, I'm not sure if it would have been warranted or even productive to see.

You know what I mean? A physical therapist probably would have said, well, why don't you just stop doing the thing that's pissing it off and just let it get better? Okay. I would probably say a doctor would be more likely to say that than a physical therapist, but possibly depending on the therapist might say lay off of it and then properly load those tissues and then go back to it. Because it could be drastically changing any activity rapidly, can create like an overuse thing. So potentially, because of the demand required from the wrist flexors and extensors, and the motion of the biceps might have, and it was just a different motion that you weren't used to recently. It could have just been the load that was placed through it. And yeah, it might have

taken like a month for those symptoms to resolve, but were they gradually getting better throughout? So if it's continuing to stay the same, it's different than if it's improving. Agreed. And that's just an important point. It's kind of like with weightlifting, right? Progress is progress. And of course, though, if it were a lot more painful and it were only improving a little bit, and if it looked like, well, shit, at this rate, it's going to be six months until I can just pull with my palms down or do a normal biceps curl, then I would have also, I would have thought about it differently and probably went and seen someone. But in my experience, the little kind of niggling aches and pains that you get weightlifting, and if you do enough of it and you make enough progress, you are going to experience

these things to some degree. I think that you can do everything right preventatively, everything we've been talking about. And one day you're going to wake up and your knee is just going to kind of hurt and you don't really know why, or maybe you do know why, but, or, or it's going to be your elbow or it's going to be your wrist, or it's going to be some muscle and you're just going to have to figure out how to work around it. And I agree that the point is if it's not severe, hopefully it hasn't gotten to that point and you can work around it and you can experience at least slight improvements and it's not going to take a year at this rate kind of thing, then you just keep going. Would you agree? Partly, yes. Partly, I would probably take a look and see if you notice any asymmetries from side to side. So, for example, if you wake up one day and your knee is bothering you, okay, is your strength symmetrical on both sides?

Is your range of motion symmetrical on both sides? And then specifically for the knee, or with really any joint, you want to look at the joint above and below because that's going to that's going to affect that joint. So you want to make sure you have strength and motion in the joints above and below. And if you do notice any asymmetries potentially working on that, whether it's mobility, flexibility, or strength. And how would that look in the case of the knee? Because that's obviously a very common problem. So you're talking about the hips and the ankles. And the ankles. Yeah. So, I mean, just general motion of the hip, are you able to bring it back as far as you can without compensating with the back?

Are you able to bring it up towards your chest without rounding the back to the same extent as the other side? And then looking at hip rotation as well, are they symmetrical and even? And then looking at your strength. So bringing the leg out to the side, is that symmetrical? So a way that you can assess it. So going back to the pistol squat assessment, are you able to go down the same depth on both sides? Are you able to control it the same way on either side? Would an assisted pistol squat be useful for that?

Yes. An assisted, yeah. So like a pistol squat, I guess, would be an extreme example of that just because it's a unilateral exercise focusing on one side. And for people listening, assisted is just you have whichever leg you're squatting down on, you have that hand on something just to give you some stability. on you have that hand on something just to give you some stability yep or you can even go a single leg squat to a chair um can potentially depending on your level give you the same information or similar information um and if you if it's a balance issue then you can always hold on to something with one hand as well because your knee might go in and out depending on balance too and what about the ankle um the ankle, you could like

bringing it up as far as you can towards you. Looking at, is it your calf flexibility or is it your ankle joint mobility? And there are self-mobilizations that you can do for your ankle if it is stiff too. Also looking at your foot control, does your arch collapse in as you do squats, for example example things like that and then you can strengthen those muscles you can improve that mobility as you see and the foot and ankle are a little bit more nuanced i guess than other body parts because there's a ton of joints and small muscles in there but yeah and the point here right is that you're comparing both sides and you're trying so if your right knee is hurting and then you are running

through some of these things that you mentioned and you notice that, yeah, your, your right ankle is just a lot less mobile than your left. Well, now you have something you can address that may be contributing to this knee problem. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Anything else with repetitive stress injuries in terms of, okay, you have one, unfortunately, it has happened. And what do you do now? I would definitely go to a medical provider, whether it's a doctor who would refer you to a physical therapist or physical therapist, because it's if it's a musculoskeletal injury so bones joints muscles things like that and what are some of the things then that you would do with somebody who comes to you and they have this issue to some extent it would be screening their emotion looking at their strength and then you can assess functional patterns as well and noticing those differences

from side to side any abnormal movement patterns and then addressing the causes of those movement patterns. So you're addressing the cause of those symptoms, not just the symptom itself. Sure. And then technique wise, would you do something like you might change how they're loading an exercise? So let's say there's something up with their wrist or their shoulder and they can't squat a barbell, but maybe they could do a leg press or a belt squat. Yeah. So temporarily, definitely you can, just like with an acute injury as well, you kind of use those strategies, changing the loading of those things. So avoiding painful activities while you're doing other things to strengthen that area. So it's not

avoid it and you never can do it again. It's avoid it temporarily so you can strengthen those tissues back up at an appropriate load to get back to that activity. Yeah. Blood flow restricted training can be useful for that as well. Just throwing it out there for limbs. Yep. And I believe there's a fair amount of good research on that as well. Yep. What about training a non-injured side to maintain muscle and for potential crossover effects? So there are definitely neurologic crossover effects when you do train the opposite side. And do you want to just explain what that means?

Yeah. So basically you can retain some strength gains on the injured side if you just train the opposite side because our nervous system works overall. So you might get some firing essentially on that side, but not strong enough to create a muscle contraction, if that makes sense. So research shows that you can maintain more strength when you do non-injured side training while you're not able to use that injured side. Which can be kind of counterintuitive because when I was in my 20s, I fractured my wrist and I was in a full arm cast for six weeks. And I didn't know very much about training in general at the time, but instinctively, I didn't think that I should train my right arm because it may help my left arm. I did it just because I was like, well, I'm going to have one weird atrophy armed anyway. I might as well just keep training my right arm. But I probably helped my left arm a little bit in doing that and then was able to get back to normal faster once I got the cast off.

Yeah. And a caveat to that would be depending on the severity of the injured side, because a lot of times daily life will require you to use your opposite side. So if you're right-handed, your right hand is injured and you have to use your left arm a lot for things, just that can be more stress on it than then what it can handle and so sometimes it's not uncommon for if you're like having a right shoulder injury then your left shoulder starts to bother you as you're modifying your activity or like if you're on crutches your opposite hip starts to bother you or things like that um so i would be careful about that yes in theory i would say go ahead yes do train opposite side, but if you can train the opposite side and it's not bothering you go for it. Yeah, exactly. So there is a little bit of a

balance to that. Um, where it's not, you can't go just like ham training your other side because you do still want to be mindful of the demands that you're placing on that side. Yeah. That's a good point because somebody might just become too zealous and think, well, if I, if I train the shit out of my other side, then maybe I'll get even better crossover effects, you know? Yeah. And like, for example, I had shoulder surgery at the beginning of 2020. Um, I was like, yes, I'm going to go ham training my left side. Um, and then it turns out I was not able to do a whole lot of training on the left side because daily life was doing enough. So just being mindful of that. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Any other comments on this repetitive stress injury point? I would also just take a look at overall basic health. So making sure you're getting enough sleep, making sure you're hydrating, getting proper nutrition. health. So making sure you're getting enough sleep, making sure you're hydrating, getting proper nutrition. You can even bias a little bit more towards foods that are anti-inflammatory, things like ginger and whatnot can make, it's not going to like make or break anything, but it might help you a little bit get faster or better faster. And just making sure you're recovering well and really know your limitations, ask questions to the appropriate people and really use your resources as best you can. And one thing I'll add that helped with my biceps tendonitis issue was regular icing.

It made a noticeable difference because I wasn't doing it initially, but I was doing the other stuff that I was supposed to be doing. because I wasn't doing it initially, but I was doing the other stuff that I was supposed to be doing. I was seeing a physical therapist and we, we zeroed in on really, it was the, the primary issue was a very tight subscap muscle on, on my right side. And, and he, it was, I mean, I it's in the, in the scheme of pain, it's like it was torture, but it was pretty painful for him to get in there and work it initially. And then as he continued to work through it it got to where it was only mildly uncomfortable and the correlation was was obvious like as my subscap just settled down and was less aggravated uh the the biceps tendonitis issue was was slowly just. But the addition of regular icing, I would do, oh, this was years ago. I would do, I think, two or three kind of 15 to 20 minute ice sessions

a day basically. And I was completely avoiding any exercises in the gym that would aggravate it. So that was no barbell pressing of any kind. If I remember correctly, no dumbbell pressing, at least in the beginning, I could do flies. I could do dips, um, that the dips didn't, didn't bother me. I thought they would have, but they didn't. And, um, I think I found one or two machines that, that I could do, but, but absolutely no barbell dumbbell pressing. But when I started adding the icing, I just noticed that the problem resolved noticeably faster. Yeah. And depending on the person, ice or heat can have different responses. I know. That's why I'm just saying that for me, and I tried heat as well, but it was ice that did it. Yeah. And to be honest, the research kind of goes back and forth about which one is

best. So I typically just tell my patients, Hey, whichever one feels better. If you notice it making a difference, go for it. Um, research does show that it doesn't necessarily do a whole lot long-term by itself, but when it's combined with the exercise, um, specifically targeting that area and your deficits, then it can potentially be more beneficial that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, this has been a great discussion, Laura. That's everything I had for you. And again, I really appreciate you taking the time. Let's wrap up with where people can find you and how they can reach out to you if they want your help with something. And if there's any, just anything

else that you have to offer, uh, whether it's free or paid or whatever that you want people to know about. Yeah. So I spend most of my time on Instagram, um, and it's at paradigm of perfection. And then my website is paradigm of perfection.com. Um, and then you can also email me, um, as well at paradigm perfection at gmail.com. Um, sorry, was that paradigm of perfection at Gmail? Okay, good. Yep. Just all one word. Um, and then I do offer individualized workout programming. Um, and I do, like I mentioned before, offer those, the movement screens for that specific area. If you're like, this is like slightly off, but not enough to see a medical provider yet. Um, then I can take a look at that as well. Um, but yeah, I spend most of my time on Instagram. So that's probably the best way, um, just to reach out. So cool. Perfect.

Well, thanks again for, for taking the time. This was great. No problem. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Well, I hope you liked this episode. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did subscribe to the show, because it makes sure that you don't miss new episodes. And it also helps me because it increases the rankings of the show a little bit, which of course then makes it a little bit more easily found by other people who may like it just as much as you. And if you didn't like something about this episode or about the show in general, or if you have ideas or suggestions or just feedback to share, shoot me an email, mike at muscleforlife.com, muscleforlife.com, and let me know what I could do better or just what your

thoughts are about maybe what you'd like to see me do in the future. I read everything myself. I'm always looking for new ideas and constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode, and I hope to hear from you soon.