Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Marc Perry on How to Stay Super Lean Year Round (Without Hating Your Life)

Episode Date: July 18, 2018

Once you understand the mechanics proper dieting, getting lean isn’t all that difficult. Sure, it’s never easy in the way that gaining weight is easy, but most of us can plod through a couple months of cutting to get some abs for the summer. The real challenge is staying lean. For the long haul. That’s what separates the fitness champions from the rest of the contenders. That’s why I invited my friend Marc Perry on the podcast. He’s the founder of BuiltLean.com, and when it comes to staying absolutely shredded month after month, year after year, he walks the walk. He also manages to do it without losing his mind, which makes it all the more impressive. In this show, you’ll learn about the habits, systems, and skills Marc has developed to stay ripped. Here’s a little sneak peek of what you’ll learn in today’s interview: The things you do and don’t have to sacrifice to stay really lean What kind exercise schedule it takes How much you can get away with “cheating” before it becomes a problem What you can expect to eat in terms of calories and macros The best ways to keep hunger under control throughout the day How to manage eating out at restaurants And more ... 5:05 - What it takes to stay lean for long periods of time. Specifically from psychological and lifestyle perspective. 8:05 -  Where are you at right now? What are your calories and macros? What's your exercise routine? 10:31 - If you want to stay lean year-round, you need to stay active 11:05 - What do you do every morning? 19:14 - What does your diet and nutrition like? 24:56 - What about snacking? 25:43 - What about dinner? 28:40 - What about water? 31:02 - What are your calories at and how do your macros break down? 32:45 - Do you have any sugar or treats? 43:10 - What about eating out? 51:41 - What about alcohol? What effects does it have? 52:43 - How do you navigate social life if you want to stay lean? 55:13 - How are the cold showers going?    58:02 - Where can people find you and your work? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

But I think overall, the concept of, as we've been discussing, of kind of limiting variety of food, it's just, you know, it just makes it Life podcast. I am Mr. Mike Matthews, your host and the creator of MuscleForLife.com and Legion Athletics. And this episode is going to be about staying super lean year round. And like many of the episodes on this podcast, I got the idea for it from questions that people email me and DM me and so forth asking just this, what does it really take to not just get really lean, but stay really lean. Because once you understand the mechanics of proper dieting, you know, energy balance, macronutrient balance, and so forth, getting lean really isn't all that difficult. It's never easy in the way that gaining weight is easy, but most of us can plod our way through a couple months of cutting to get some abs for the summer.

a couple months of cutting to get some abs for the summer. The real challenge though is staying lean and staying lean for the long haul. That's what separates the fitness champions from the rest of the contenders. And that's why I invited my friend, Mark Perry on the podcast. Mark is the founder of BuiltLean.com. And when it comes to staying absolutely shredded month after month, year after year, Mark walks the walk. And he has managed to do it without losing his mind, which makes it even more impressive. So in this show, you're going to learn about the habits, systems, and skills that Mark has developed to stay ripped. So here's a little sneak peek of what you are going to learn in today's interview. You're going to learn the things that you do and don't have to sacrifice to stay really lean. What kind of exercise schedule it takes.

How much you can get away with cheating before it becomes a problem, what you can expect to eat in terms of calories and macros, the best ways to keep hunger under control throughout the day, how to manage eating out at restaurants, and more. Now, before we dive into this episode, I have to shill for something to pay the bills, right? No, I'm just kidding. I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and really believe in. So instead, I am going to just quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my fitness book for women, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger. Now, this book has sold over 150,000 copies in the last several years, and it has helped thousands of women build

their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 1,200 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths that keep women from ever achieving the lean, sexy, strong, and healthy bodies they truly desire. And if you wanna learn the simple science of building the ultimate female body, then you wanna read Thinner, Leaner, Stronger today, which you can find on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play.

Now, speaking of Audible, I should also mention that you can actually get the audio book 100% free when you sign up speaking of Audible, I should also mention that you can actually get the audiobook 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account, which I highly recommend that you do if you're not currently listening to audiobooks. I myself love them because they let me make the time that I spend doing things like commuting, prepping food, walking my dog, and so forth into more valuable and productive activities. So if you want to take Audible up on this offer and get my book for free, simply go to www.bitly.com slash free TLS book.

And that will take you to Audible. And then you just have to click the sign up today and save button, create your account. And voila, you get to listen to Thinner, Leaner, Stronger for free. All right. That's it for the shameless plugging. Let's get to the show. Hey, Mark. Thanks for coming on the show.

I'm excited to do this. We tried with previous time for the listeners and then we got mixed up on times, but here we are. Hey, thanks so much for having me, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm excited to talk to you because this is something that I've actually had on my list of things to write about or talk about or both.

And I think you are a perfect guy to talk to about this, not only because you are generally a smart dude and know what you're talking about, but this is something that you have a lot of experience with. And that is what it really takes to stay lean for long periods of time. And not mechanically speaking, because most of my listeners know about energy balance and macronutrient balance. Yes, they know that, of course, maintaining your weight comes down to just maintaining your energy balance and making sure that you're not eating more calories and you're burning over time, blah, blah, blah. I mean more from the psychological perspective and the lifestyle perspective of how essentially what it comes down to is the leaner you want to be, the more OCD

you have to be about your diet and exercise, about your energy balance ultimately. And that of course impacts your social life. It impacts how you feel. And then there's the physical side of it too. And I'm very curious to hear your experiences because I've done it a few times where I've gotten very lean for photo shoots. And then just like, what does it take to maintain this? And the last time I did that, I was weightlifting four to six hours a week. And I was doing about an hour or so of hit cardio on a bike, uh, on like a, on an upright or recumbent bike per week. And so I had, I was burning a fair amount of calories. And even then what I found is that I had to, I was eating about 25 or 26, most 2,700 calories a day. And it, I, I basically

always, I didn't, I wouldn't say I felt bad, but I felt off. Like I didn't have as much energy as usual. My workouts weren't as good as usual. I felt like my body just wanted more food. Um, and you know, I've done it now a couple of times and I've experienced that. So, so that's what I want to talk to you about because, and for, for people listening, Mark stays very lean for long periods of time. And, um, and it's not because he has like a magical unicorn metabolism. I'm sure you have a, have a good metabolism and you exercise and so forth, but it mostly comes down to the, you're willing to pay the price of what it takes, right? Right. And so I probably had under 10% body fat for, I'm not exaggerating, probably 10 years.

And I think, and as you're saying, I mean, you're hitting everything on the head. Like, ultimately, I think like the theme is that I approach my life in a more structured way. Like I approach my exercise in a very structured way. And I know you do too. I approach my eating in a very structured way. And like, ultimately, it not only helps me stay lean, but it optimizes my energy levels. And that's really what kind of motivates me. And so, you know, in terms of structure, I have a very specific structure in terms of like, okay, what am I doing on what day each week in terms of exercise? You know, what types of meals am I eating each day? And obviously I can go into a lot more detail, but that's like the basic theme is creating structure so that I don't have to become anxious because otherwise it would be very difficult to stay lean and have a life and, you know, enjoy yourself. Yeah. So let's get to the specifics. So

where are you at right now? And have you been in where you are now for a period of time or have you cut even leaner recently? And what do those specifics look like in terms of calories, macros, the type of foods that you eat, the type of exercise that you do. And also, how does that work in terms of a social life, you know, eating out parties and so forth? Absolutely. I mean, those are, it's a lot of great questions. I think, kind of starting with I'm trying to think like, where we start, I think, essentially, we have like three kind of categories here. We've got exercise, nutrition, lifestyle. I think starting with exercise, um, I do kind of three full body strength training, uh, kind of workouts a week. And these workouts tend to,

in general, I call them strength circuits. They tend to be, um, you know, only like 25, 20, 30 minutes, but I do pretty intense training. So for example, I don't know if you've heard of a workout called simple and sinister, a guy named Pavel Satsulin created it, but basically I'll do a hundred kettlebell swings in five minutes. Um, basically 10 on my right, 10 on my left every minute. And then I'll do a Turkish get up, you know, five Turkish get up to my right, five Turkish guests on my left. It takes, uh, that takes about another 10 minutes, the entire training session, the actual workouts, 15 minutes, but I've essentially lifted, you know, like I do, I use a 70 pound kettlebell by the way, to do that workout. Um, so I'm basically lifting,

you know, what is it? Um, it's like 7,000 pounds in five minutes, right? If I'm doing a hundred kettlebell swings in five minutes. So anyways, i guess what i'm saying is like my full body training like workouts they tend to be pretty intense and that is kind of definitely has an impact on how my physique looks um so i do that a few times a week uh so monday wednesday friday is when i do my full body strength training um on uh tuesday uh i do yoga hot yoga i know you're a fan too, because that really helps open up my body. On Thursday, I do like a cross training type of thing where I'll just go for a run. I moved to Santa Monica recently, so I go on the beach. And then on Saturday, I'll either do yoga or like, you know, some more cross training.

And then on Sunday, I'll do a hike. But the idea is I try to stay as active as I possibly can. And so that's kind of like an overall. That's a key point actually, just to, just to emphasize is a lot of activity. That's one of the key things. If you want to stay lean year round, you are going to have to be very active just because you're going to need the additional energy expenditure. If you want to eat a halfway reason, like an amount of food that

isn't just punitive. Totally. And one kind of one more kind of quick thing. And by the way, in terms of my kind of workout structure, as you can, I think, sense from how I described it, it's pretty well balanced. You know, it's like, I'm not just doing one thing or the other thing. I try to make it more balanced. I think as I've gotten older, I think that's become more important. And then kind of one more kind of quick thing to recommend, mention about the exercise. I think as I've gotten older, I think that's become more important. And then kind of one more kind of quick thing to recommend, uh, mentioned about the exercise. I also do every morning. I do like a daily bulletproofing routine. I used to call it my morning mobility routine, but now I call it daily bulletproofing. It kind of motivates me even more. And I also do a little bit, you know, it's like a little bit of kind of core and glute work, and then also some mobility.

And the idea is it just makes me more resistant. And I imagine it also helps a little bit with the kind of calorie expenditure. So that's, that's like an overview of my exercise. That sound good? Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. And just cool in the bulletproofing, I actually started doing the same thing. So I got into yoga, but doing it, I was doing it once, maybe twice a week. And it was good, but I wasn't happy with like, my progress was slow, just because I was doing right, you know, once or twice a week, and probably more often once a week and it was good, but I wasn't happy with like, my progress was slow just because I was doing, you know, once or twice a week and probably more often once a week than twice a week, which is of course better than nothing. But there were like, in my case, for example, something that I've had an imbalance that I've, you know, become more and more aware of as I've

gotten more into heavier weightlifting, which I've backed off a little bit a few years ago, I was like really trying to push. That's the last time I really did a proper bulk. And it's really just trying to see like, how much can I squat a deadlift and bench press and OHP? But is, is I have, uh, I had, it's getting better now, a lot less external rotation on my right side of my lower body. And, um, and, and then, and then vice versa, less internal rotation on my right side of my lower body and, um, and, and then, and then vice versa, less internal rotation on my left side. And I found that there were a few yoga poses in particular that really seemed to help with that. So I kind of, what I want to do now is I have, it's like eight to 10 minutes a day and I have, I have, it's, it's in my head, let's see, um, five or six,

uh, basically just yoga poses that, really like that I do now every day. And just six weeks of that has really helped tremendously. I notice it not only in just like, oh, I definitely have more external rotation. That feels looser. That feels better. My pigeon pose is getting better. But I also am noticing in my squats and they just feel better. I guess that's the only way to describe it, just more stable and more comfortable with heavier weights.

And also strangely enough, I feel muscle activation on my right side in particular in a different way in my quad. I've been getting sore in an area of my quad that I previously didn't, like I didn't, I was not getting particularly sore in that area. So I don't know if I'm just getting better muscle activation on the whole, which would make sense again, because I've had tightness and fortunately no acute injuries. injuries but other than like minor muscle strains and things that you know a joint gets pissed off or something for no good reason and then you're not you're not squatting for a week or something but anyways just throwing it out there that now I'm 33 I didn't really think about this kind of thing when I was younger because I never had any issues like I just would go and crush heavy weights every day and I mean of course I was I of course I was, I was more on like a, I'd have three heavy compound workouts per week and then two lighter isolation. So I wasn't going insane, but, um, anyways, I just wanted to throw it out there that for, for people listening,

it's, I, I highly recommend, and I'm going to be, um, one of my next books I'm going to be working on. It's going to be particularly for the 30 and 40 plus crowd. And I'm going to be, uh, really emphasizing the importance of me. crowd. And I'm going to be really emphasizing the importance of, I mean, sure you can call it mobility. I mean, really whatever, it's like stretching mobility. It could be yoga poses, but it doesn't take that much time. Again, just eight to 10 minutes a day, seven days a week in like six or seven weeks has made a noticeable improvement. So. Yeah. And I, again, I can't emphasize enough, like for the, for the people listening, doing it, as you said, like a daily mobility routine, it's huge. It's

actually the very first thing I do. I take, actually I get up in the morning. Um, I actually get up at 5.00 AM every day, partly, uh, thanks to your book. Oh, is that so? So it's thick. I like it. Yeah. I used to get up at six. And now I get up at five, because I'm like, man, I just gotta gotta take it up a notch. And then I take a cold shower immediately. I'll tell you a little bit more about that. And then I literally do the morning mobility slash kind of bulletproofing. It's literally the most important exercise I do every day. Like, it's okay, if I don't go to the gym. It's okay, if I don't go to yoga, but like that morning mobility, bulletproofing, it's the most important thing I do regarding

my kind of movement and exercise. Because as you're saying, you know, you're working on those weaknesses. So just hugely important. Agreed. And for people that want to learn more about mobility, if you head over to muscleforlife.com, just search for mobility, you'll find a few articles that I've written. So there's one that's like improving your mobility for squatting, and it has some lower body stuff. And then there's a longer one that just has a whole bunch of things that you've written. So there's one that's like improving your mobility for squatting and it has some lower body stuff. And then there's a longer one that just has a whole bunch of things

that you can try. And for me, I've been rather unscientific about it in a sense, I guess, in that I just chose the things that felt good. That's like, I know I was aware of, okay, these are the imbalances and which of the, again, these come down to mostly yoga stretches, which are also, you'll find them in some mobility routines, but I'm not getting fancy with bands or anything. It's real simple. And it's just the things where I would do it. And I'd be like, yeah, I definitely have impaired mobility there.

My left side, I can go this far. My right side, I cannot go this far. So I'm just going to do this one. And that's basically how I chose them was like, yep, this one addresses it this way. This one addresses it that way. This one feels good. This one is, uh, it seems to be addressing the issue. And, you know, I guess in a sense, like if you pick up Starrett's mobility book, that's what you're going to have to do. It's an encyclopedia. Good luck trying to, I mean, that's ultimately, it's just kind of like, well, now you get to just experiment with all these things and see what's seems to work for you. Um, so again, you, you're going to have to,

there's going to be some trial and error anyway. Um, but anyways, yeah, if people want to learn more, just, just check out the articles and it's, it's simple and you don't have to put very much time into it to, to reap not only the immediate benefits of just feeling good and being able to move better, but it will impact your workouts as well. positively. Cool. And one more thing I just want to mention before going into nutrition is I also had lower back surgery when I was 21 years old. I was a lacrosse player at Yale. And so I was competitive athlete my whole life. And that really affected, you know, so obviously I had like a college strength training program, did all the, you know, the squats, the deadlifts, all that stuff. And I ended up hurting a disc in my back, got surgery. And like that dramatically affects affected my

whole life, obviously, ever since. And it really made me think differently about all this kind of mobility, daily bulletproofing stuff. So I just want to mention that. I know a lot of guys who are listening might have had low, bad, low backs, or even hurting a disc in their back. And so, you know, this type of morning type of routine can help mitigate the risk of something like that happening. Right. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's something I pay more attention to now is like, I'm not as interested as I was, uh, five years ago in like trying to max out on lifts and seeing just how strong I can get. I experienced it to, to a degree where I was like, all right, if I'm going to go further, I'm one, I'm going to have to really program for squatting, for example, which I don't necessarily even want to do, um, for the, for even for nothing

else that like my jeans already barely fit as it is. So if I go further, then I guess I'm never wearing jeans again. And, and then I'm a true, then I'm a true meatball bodybuilder or wearing those really ugly bodybuilder jeans, like MC Hammer jeans or just permanently like sweatpants or shorts. But then also I realized that obviously as you get into heavier and heavier weights, your risk of injury goes up just inherently because even if you know what you're doing, it doesn't take, it takes one rep that where you're a little bit off and that can turn into an injury. And I don't want to say that to scare anybody, but that's just the reality. It's like Olympic lifting is more dangerous than powerlifting because you are throwing around. There's a lot more stuff going on

with heavy weight. So I also became more cognizant of that. And I was like, okay, I now I'm pretty happy with where my body's at. I enjoy working out. I also kind of just don't want to get hurt. So that's also why I started putting a, putting more mobility stuff in. Awesome, man. I think again, it's, that's super smart and I'm happy that we're discussing it right now. Hey, before we continue, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please do consider picking up one of my best-selling health and fitness books. My most popular ones are Bigger, Leaner, Stronger for Men, Thinner, Leaner, Strong stronger for men, thinner, leaner, stronger for women, my flexible dieting cookbook,

The Shredded Chef, and my 100% practical hands-on blueprint for personal transformation, The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever. And you can find them anywhere online where you can buy books like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes & Noble stores. So again, that is Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women, The Shredded Chef, and The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation. Oh, and one other thing is you can get any one of those audio books 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And that's a great way to make those pockets of downtime, like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning more interesting,

entertaining, and productive. Now, if you want to take Audible up on that offer and get one of my audio books for free. Just go to legionathletics.com slash Audible and sign up for your account. So kind of moving on to nutrition in terms of kind of staying lean all year round. That was a worthwhile tangent, but we'll go back on topic. Totally. No, no, absolutely. I think it's a hugely important, it's hugely important. And so kind of, uh, with regards to nutrition, obviously, uh, you know, there are many different philosophies, many different diets out there. There are so many diets that makes your head spin and so many, you know, this works, that works, this doesn't work. I mean, for me, I don't really pay too

much attention to that. I, I have, uh, as I said, a pretty structured diet. So I'll give you a pretty quick example, and then you'll probably realize why I'm able to stay lean all the time is that, you know, I have basically the same breakfast every morning, like seven days a week and not seven days a week, but most, most days. And maybe I'll have, it'll be different, maybe a couple of times, but I have basically a shake in the morning, right? It's like fresh fruits. Sometimes I'll throw, you know, some vegetables in there, a nut butter, you know, a grass fed kind of, or a whey protein and that's it. And it takes me like three minutes to make it. I use it with like, I use like a Nutribullet Pro or Nutribullet RX, whatever it is. It takes five seconds to make. And I know I'm getting great nutrition. And I know that it's just going to fill me up until

basically lunchtime. So that's nice, right? I think I'm sure that when you've worked with some of your clients and a lot of people sometimes like a lot of variety, but for me, I think the opposite makes it easier to kind of stick with things. And there's another little key takeaway for people listening is if you like food a lot, I just, I honestly would not recommend trying to, to, to be super lean. It's you, you just can't have it both ways unless you are incredibly active. Um, I mean, where you're going to be spending hours a day, either exercising or playing sports or something. So you can eat so much that it just doesn't matter. Or, you know, you're on drugs that allow you to eat so much that it doesn't matter.

So those are basically the only way that people that want a lot of food variety and that are really into food can also be super lean. lean. So keep that in mind when you're browsing around on Instagram and seeing guys and gals that stay super lean and talk about all the food they get to eat. And I also realize a lot of people lie about that as well. They'll lie about their calories. They'll lie about their diet. It's a thing, especially with some girls, not even just fitness girls, but models to pretend that you eat a lot of junk food, but you don't. You know what I mean? You're taking a bite of the hamburger picture and you spit it out, not joking. And so anyways, I just wanted to call that out because it's an important point is that if you're going to have to stick to a very regimented diet, and ultimately that means probably eating a lot of the same foods for long periods of time,

because you, you know what those foods are in terms of calories and in terms of macros. And unless you have that database built into your brain, it's, it's annoying to try to change things because you can't just change things on the fly unless you're familiar with what you're replacing. Right. Absolutely. And by the way, I have a coaching client right now I'm working with on the nutrition side. I mean, like he's this like typical New Yorker and he has the craziest variety of food that he eats. It's like insane. He has like a different fish every night, a different like meat every, it's, I've never

seen anything like it, frankly. And it's been hard for him. Then we kind of tightened it up and limited the variety a little bit more. And it helped him a lot. But, you know, it's going to be a different challenge once he kind of gets off and wants more variety. But I think you're giving great advice in that, like, if someone likes a huge variety of food, it's just a lot harder to stay leaner. I think it's possible with like more OCD, but it's harder. Yeah, it's going to take a fair amount of money and that you're going to have like a personal chef that's just going to make you

and you get to give your calories and macros to your chef and then he or she just gives you delicious meals every day or it's going to take a lot of your time to micromanage your diet. And yes, you're going to have to be pretty OCD about it. Right, and you can also get like a meal delivery service, but who wants to do that three to four meals a pretty OCD about it. Right. And you can also get a meal delivery service, but who wants to do that three to four meals a day? Sure, you can pay for that. Or you probably actually for that money, you probably could find a local chef to just make you stuff fresh.

Yeah, you're probably right. Right. You're probably right. So yeah, again, that's a great point. And then, so that's breakfast as a shake. Lunch is usually, usually like a salad. I usually, and I was like, so against salads and my meathead bodybuilding days, like the thought of having a salad was like, like actually got me angry. So I'm like, no, no, I'm saying isn't like, I'm like, what am I like a rabbit? Like who eats a salad? Like, it's not going to fill me up. You know, I'm like a man. I'm like, I I'm an athlete. The whole idea of eating a salad was just like, I would never do that. So anyways, after several years, I ended up realizing that a salad is actually an amazing base and it helps me have more energy because basically I have a base of salad, but I've still have some healthy fats in there. It's like a man-sized salad I eat

every day. I don't need a little thing. I have a good amount of protein in there. It's like a man-sized salad I eat every day. Like I don't need a little thing, you know? Um, I have like a good amount of protein in there, probably a good six to eight ounces. You know, I have some, usually like a healthy fat, like a cheese. I have some, uh, you know, some nuts in there. So it's like a solid size salad. And that's usually what I have for, for lunch. It could even be, it can definitely be higher than that. It could be, you know, 700 to 800. But it's a sizable salad. And then I think snacking is a huge topic, of course. Snacking in general, when I see guys who snack a lot, it makes it very difficult to stay lean and get lean.

And so when I want to get ripped, the only thing I have to do is not eat snacks. Like I'm at the point where I've been doing this for so long. I don't have to, like, if I just don't eat snacks, I will get like pretty shredded. So typically, I'll have, you know, maybe one snack a day, but like my max is two, because the second I go above two, like I know it's going to affect my focus and energy levels. And it's not even about just, you know, staying, I guess, lean, but it's just not great for me to have more than a couple snacks. So that's kind of the max I have. And they're small snacks, you know, it's like, you know, some some almonds or something, a handful of almonds, or, you know, a piece of fruit, something like that to keep it

super simple. And so that's really the snacks. And then the final is the dinner. I'll often just cook dinner myself. It's super simple. I have like frozen veggies, I'll have like, broccoli, I'll have some like kind of this have like broccoli. I'll have some like kind of this mixed vegetables and I'll have at least two cups of them. Cause especially as you know, like you can have a lot of food if you eat vegetables, like especially five rice vegetables. I mean, you can load up on five vegetables and stay super full. Um, so that's a huge, yeah, no, it's, yeah, it's a huge strategy. I think for, you know, if you really do want to get that kind of leaner physique, that's exactly what I do. I'm cutting. I, uh, eat, I mean, I already, my standard

vegetable and fruit intake is two to three servings. So I do two servings of fruit and probably closer to three servings. Actually, I'd say these days, it's probably closer to four servings of vegetables per day. But yes, that's a great cutting tip is include vegetables in your lunches and dinners. And especially look for vegetables that are lower in calories. Some vegetables are not so great, like peas, not so great. Broccoli, great. Spinach, great. Green beans, super great. So that's a good tip for staying full without having to eat a bunch of calories. Absolutely. And so like my dinner has like the following template. It's basically like a lean meat or relatively lean meat. It's, you know, fibrous vegetables and carbs, essentially fibrous

vegetables. And then like I have like one starchy carb that has a good amount of fiber and like that template, you can apply it to lunch. You can apply it to dinner, but like, that's something that like, if I'm eating out, I have that same template. Like I don't eat something unless it has that template, if that makes sense. Um, and so, you know, just kind of finish off my dinner. I'll have the fibers vegetables. I'll have, let's just say, um, some like, you know, brown rice or quinoa. And then I'll have like grass fed beef, or like some chicken. And maybe I'll have like, you know, some spices or oils or tomato sauce, like something to make it taste good. And then that is really it. And it satisfies me, it makes me happy. Like I know, like my brother is in New York, and he is one of these guys. I mean, he loves eating out. He loves, you know, kind of these like greasy, oily foods sometimes.

And for me, it's like I get a kick out of what I just described to you. Like I love what I eat because of how I feel. And it also tastes good to me. So just like yourself, like we're hyper aware of how our habits are affecting our life and our energy. Like most people aren't, right? Most people are just kind of going through the motions. Whereas I think, you know, when you're doing this for a living, you're just hyper aware of these little things and it affects the habits that you have. And so anyways, that's kind of the, you know, my nutrition, just a couple more quick things to mention regarding nutrition is I definitely focus on whole foods. The vast majority of what I eat is whole and unprocessed foods. You know, think of like a one ingredient, like an apple, of course. And then the finally is I definitely load up on water. I've noticed for sure, when I drink less water, my hunger and especially my craving for sugar goes up significantly. I mean, the hunger is no surprise because, I mean, obviously, research shows that volume, the volume of food is more connected with satiety than the calories.

So you can kind of hack that a little bit, so to speak, with water. And then I think there is a little bit of research. I feel like this isn't fake news that increased water consumption has been associated with increased fat loss while dieting. And there might be a slight metabolic effect there as well. That I'm not, I'm not, I'm not 100% on that. I feel like I've come across that in my travels, but if nothing else, it definitely helps reduce hunger. Right. And, and, and again, like in, in addition to reducing hunger, it definitely affects energy levels. So you can train harder and, uh, you know, it's,

it's definitely a hack. Like it definitely improves focus, improves, um, you know, all those has all those benefits. So I I'm serious about drinking water. And when I don't drink enough water, like my entire day just doesn't go as well. It's just the truth. It's, it sounds crazy. I've experienced it. Cause I drink, I drink about a gallon of water a day. I just stick to kind of like the IOM basic, you know, they recommend it's probably closer to three quarters of a gallon for men, but considering exercise and sweating and so forth, I'm drinking about a gallon a day and some water in my food. And yeah, that's, I've been doing that for years and years and years. And I'll notice it if I, if I'm traveling and I don't drink enough water, it's not like, you know, I wouldn't say my day's ruined, but I will definitely notice that I have not

drank enough water. I just don't feel right. Exactly. And even a small amount of dehydration definitely affects athletic performance for sure. So yeah, so that's basically the nutrition is again, I just keep it kind of, I basically have a template that I follow. And this is essentially what I've done with my own kind of like fitness programs I've developed is essentially get people to kind of buy into this like concept of a template and concept of like, hey, choose two to three breakfast, three to five

lunches, three to five dinners, and just kind of stick with them and kind of plan ahead as to, okay, how many calories, protein and carbs is in each one. So you, and just stick with it. So that's kind of what I recommend people do. And so that's kind of the nutrition then. Let me ask before we move on. So, so where are your calories at approximately? Obviously you're not weighing and measuring everything because you did that at some point to understand. I'm sure we've, I mean, anybody that's gotten really lean has weighed everything they've eaten every day at some point. So where are your calories at and how do your macros generally break down? Yeah, it's a great question. And I did it, you know, I, like, like you said, I certainly went through a phase where like I knew precisely everything, like the number of protein, carbs,

and fat. And I kind of went through that phase, which is, I would say it's a prerequisite to be able to do what you're doing now. Right. Cause if you didn't, if you didn't go through it, you wouldn't know. I mean, now you just know almost subconsciously, probably the foods that you like to eat, you know, uh, how much you should be eating without even thinking about it, because you know, that if you were to double that portion, like that doesn't look right. You know that you couldn't tell exactly how many calories is there, but you're like, yeah, that's too much. I just know that's too much. And I think that that's very fair for sure. And I'm just thinking here in terms of, yeah, like the number of calories, I'm probably at somewhere around like 2300 2400 but it can be even lower

but i'd say probably 2300 2400 um in terms of protein carbs kind of fat breakdown it's probably around like 30 40 30 i'm guessing um so like i that way i think it was a kind of like high protein again relative to what, you know, the government recommends or whatever, like definitely high protein, moderate carb and kind of moderate fat. It's kind of, yeah,

that's kind of something else that might stand out to people is it sounds like there's no sugar. There are no treats at all. Great question. I don't, I don't do, I don't do too much sugar just because I because of all the things that I can eat, I think sugar is just bad. I just don't like it. As in, I think it's bad for the body

to have too much sugar because even four grams of sugar is essentially one teaspoon of sugar. I'm sure you've seen this. I got to go to some of these like kind of health conferences and stuff, maybe these organic treats, and everything's organic and raw and quote unquote healthy. And I've got like 30 grams of sugar in like, like a bar. And I'm just like, there's nothing healthy about that. You know what I mean? So I tend to avoid it's funny, it's actually a really great point. Mike, I'm really happy you brought that up. Because like, when I something i'm about to eat it like the nutrition facts like that's the first thing i look at is what's the sugar like is there a lot of sugar if there's a lot of sugar i i just i don't have it because it's not um it's just not nutritious yeah yeah you know i've written about

quite a bit about sugar and spoken a fair amount about it and i'd say my position is um if you're doing everything right in your diet and say my position is, um, if you're doing everything right in your diet and well, most of the, most of the, if you're doing all the big things right with your diet and your exercise and so forth, and you want to have some sugar, even if it's every day, that's probably fine. Um, if, if you don't, if you simply don't feel good when you eat it, then that's probably an indication that you just probably shouldn't be eating it. But, uh, in my case, I'll speak personally, I like dark chocolate. So I have, I mean, it's like, it. But in my case, I'll speak personally, I like dark chocolate. So I have, I mean, it's like,

I don't know, maybe a hundred these days, it's like a hundred and no more than 150 calories, close to a hundred calories of dark chocolate a day. I actually haven't looked at the sugar. I mean, I like the dark. I like, I'll go, I think these I'm eating like it's 77% right now, but I'll go as high as the 80 plus just because I like, I actually milk chocolate's okay, but I prefer, I like the taste of chocolate. So I I'm having a little bit of sugar there. Um, every day it's probably 10 or 15 grams. And, and I, and I, and I know that's not negatively impacting my health, but, but yes, if you take caloric beverages, which is also something that people should note that Mark and I, and I also, we, we just, we don't drink calories at all. I don't, because when you, when you have an, in Mark's case, 23, 2,400 calories a day. And, um, I mean, a cup of

orange juice is like a hundred calories, a cup of any juice. So the, you, that's why one of the reasons why water is great in that if you, you get used to it and it becomes satiating. And, you know, if you're used to drinking juice eventually or, or soda, eventually, you know, you, you move on and you forget about it. But yeah, I want to, I just wanted to bring up sugar because I'm sure people listening, Mark are like, wait a minute, where are the desserts? Where, where, where's the good stuff? Right. And by the way, way listen i can definitely get away with it quote unquote get away with you know eating more sugar and stuff like i definitely can and i have it's just that like in terms of maximizing my energy and like maximizing how i feel because again like

i'm just hyper aware and it's funny you bring up dark chocolates i definitely used to have dark chocolate if i was gonna have something i would have dark chocolate for sure. I think it's fantastic. I just find personally that it's a slippery slope in that I have one, then I want another and another. And another thing to mention is I'm a single guy, so it's easier for me to kind of... I don't have kids, so it's easier for me to kind of control what's in my kitchen. Like if I have snacks in my kitchen, like they're going to be gone. I'm going to eat them all.

Right. So I tend to, you know, out of sight, out of mind, I think is insanely powerful. And it's one of the big challenges I have when I'm kind of coaching a guy who has a family and has, you know, his wife loves treats and has, you know, ice cream in the freezer. Like it's really hard to kind of coach that guy. Yeah, chips in the pantry and all kinds of stuff out on the table or in the kitchen, strewn about for, you know, little nibbles here and there that by the end of the day could be an extra 500 calories. It's like, what chances does that guy have? It's serious. It's like, it's very difficult for that guy. Whereas I think the

out of sight, out of mind is massively important. I'm structured. I don't want to sound like, listen, I'm like a total robot here. If you put cupcakes in front of me, I'm probably going to eat them all. I think I've just structured my life in a way to maximize energy and minimize the distractions in my environment that are going to cause me to screw up all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm the same way. So for people listening again, it sounds, some people are like, nah, Mark's a robot. And, and I, I understand. I mean, and I, and I'm, I'm going to say that I live, it's, it's, it's basically, if I were telling my story, it'd be the exact same story. Because I mean, for, for some of the, some really, it's the same reasons.

I like how my body feels when I, when I eat this way. I, I'm cutting right now, but it looks like I'm gonna have to stop because, and this is also something I want to, I want to ask you about that. It's just been messing with my sleep. Like it's been a, it's been a consistent thing now where, um, yeah, I just took a diet break last week. So my sleep has been on, I'll wake up multiple times at night and figured, Hey, maybe my body I'd been in a deficit for seven or eight weeks. Maybe it's time to just like give my body a break, eat more food, train a little bit less

intensely for a week, instantly sleep better. Okay, fine. I want to finish this cut though. I mean, I'm pretty lean, but I wanted to lose another two or three pounds, go back into a deficit, immediately sleep gets a little bit worse and progressively has gotten worse. So there's a point here where maybe I've, you know, just over the course of the last couple of years, I feel like maybe accumulated a bit too much stress on my body for in a number of different ways, which is the first, this is the first time I really dealt with it. I actually don't feel stressed myself, but that's the best explanation I can come up with, which I don't want to get off too much on a random tangent. But anyways, my point is, Mark and I, it's not that we're just mentally ill and this is some weird compulsion that we have to eat like this. And I also want to hear from you, Mark.

Also, another big thing people ask me about is restaurants, which we can get into in a second. But the point is, this is what you have to do if you want to stay really lean without wanting to rip your hair out with your meal plans or without using anabolic steroids or without exercising two or three hours plus per day. This is the kind of life. This is, I have to structure your lifestyle. And I can, I mean, I'm on the same page with you, Mark, in that I enjoy, it's not, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. In many ways, actually, I feel like I am, I think I'm better off in that I don't feel that I don't have the temptations. I don't have to struggle because that takes energy that I don't feel that I don't have the temptations. I don't have to struggle because that takes energy. People don't realize that. I think many people don't realize

that when they are struggling to not eat the things that they want to eat and fighting with themselves mentally, that exerts energy. And that energy that they're exerting is energy that pulls from their overall pool of energy that not only is what we use for our work and our relationships and everything else that is non-physical, but also physical. I mean, there's research that shows that even physical performance is affected by how your, you could say your mental energy state is. You can drain your willpower with having to resist all the snacks that are around all the time or even just mentally sitting there. I mean, Eric Helms has talked about in one of his books,

some research on bodybuilders where it was a very high percentage. I want to say it was like 60% to 80% of bodybuilders that they had studied had like regularly fantasizing about food that they wish they could eat. And a lot of them develop eating disorders. And, you know, so, so that, if you can get over that, which is, I think, Mark, what, what you've probably experienced, I know what I've experienced where sure, I can have a dessert. If I'm going to go to a restaurant and I want a dessert, I'll have a dessert. Or I don't have the dessert. I don't feel an urge to. So I think there's definitely something to be said for all the, again, because a lot of people listening to this are going to feel like, wow, that's a lot to sacrifice. I mean, listen to, if you compare what you're doing, and this is also what I'm doing,

the majority of, we eat very similarly, actually, I just eat a bit more. For the majority of people, that sounds really unfun. You know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean. But it's, it's like- Even, even that, even that you don't just like, cause for, I know people are like, that like food variety in particular, that there's a little bit of stimulation there of, oh, what are we going to eat today?

What are we going to, where are we going for dinner? Where are we going for lunch? That alone for some people is a, is a sacrifice just to go from that to, Oh, so I'm, I'm eating, I know what I'm eating today and I know what I'm eating tomorrow. And I know what I'm eating, you know, 20 tomorrows from tomorrow that, that alone is a sacrifice, let alone actually doing it and no longer getting the, the greasy foods, like the stuff, you know, sounds like your brother, for example, that would be a hard transition for him probably. Yeah. You know, it's, it's funny brother, for example, that would be a hard transition for him probably.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because I've definitely worked with him and he's made pretty awesome progress. We actually essentially created rules for him and there are a lot of different strategies. But yeah, no, it's something I think, you know, ultimately also do a little soul searching. I mean, you've talked about it in your book in terms of appreciating the kind of the sacrifice. And as of now, I don't really think about it as a sacrifice at all, because it's essentially time efficient, right? It's productive to essentially, like not be wondering, what am I going to have next, right? And as you said, it can drain your energy. So the idea of like me, like coming to lunch and being like, I don't even know what I'm what I want, maybe I would just go to a pizza joint right across the street, right? Like that's what happens to I think a lot of guys. So for me,

I actually enjoy the food I have. It's really productive. It's time efficient for me to kind of know in advance what I'm going to have or essentially have a template I can follow. And in terms of eating out, as we were discussing at restaurants, I mean, I lived in New York City for 13 years. I literally ate out or ordered in like 100% of my dinners for like 13 years. Like I didn't cook for a long time, you know what I'm saying? Or for at least a large chunk of that, I didn't cook at all. So I know what that lifestyle is like of kind of being in a large city, you know, constantly eating out. I customized all my meals, by the way, that's kind of like something I talk about, recommend people doing is like, when you go to a restaurant, I tend to make small adjustments to whatever I'm ordering, which might annoy the chef. But, you know, I think I think it makes sense. But yeah, I think that's, yeah, I mean, you have to because that's I, and I've, I've, I talk about this in my books and have written elsewhere about it and spoken about it,

that restaurants are in the business of making really tasty food, not caring about calories at all. And that means adding, usually it's some sort of fat. So it's butter, it's oil or, or sugar, depending on the food. Um, and then of course, salting the shit out of it. But, you know, if you don't, if you weren't to customize your orders, you, you wouldn't, I don't know if you would have been able to do that, or you would have had to been very, very restrictive in what you order, right? Right. I mean, I think like a classic example would be like a burger with fries. Like if you get a burger alone, it maybe is like six, seven, 700 calories, or 80, even 800 calories. But like when you get the fries with it and a soda,

that's where it becomes 1,500 calories. And so I just get a burger with a salad on the side, and that would be it. I think a simple customization like that makes sense. And I should mention, at one point when I was in finance, what inspired me to really do this for a living and help other people get in shape was, you know, I ended up gaining 30 over 30 pounds when I was in finance, like I know what it's like to have a busy job, and to kind of like, use food to kind of comfort yourself. So it's a lot of it's psychological as well. And so anyways, I think this more structured approach, obviously, we know the benefits. I think it's really helpful. And I think if people give it a try, they might be surprised.

Yeah, I agree. Something on else that's, that's worth mentioning is in going out and eating in restaurants is if you want to stay really lean, you really can't have, I mean, forget cheat days that that can be a disaster. Sure, you can have cheat meals, free meals, normal meals, whatever you want to call them, but they have to be within reason or you will notice the change. You will gain fat back. You might be surprised at how quickly you can notice a difference from just a few, several thousand calorie days. It doesn't have to be from the whole day. It can be from a single meal. That's easy to do, at least for me in a restaurant. If I go and just,

I'm like, I don't even have to eat to, I can eat to 60 or 70%, but it could be thousands of calories depending on what I'm eating. And so I don't know if you experienced that, but I definitely have when I've stayed super lean for months at a time, I had to basically do kind of what you're talking about. I kind of stick to my plan at all times because the reality is anytime I would go to a restaurant and if I really to eat a lot, I would notice a little bit of a difference. And that means, okay, sure. You can go into a deficit for a few days and get back to where you want to be. Yes, that's fine. But that's just the reality of it. You cannot go and just kind of, you know, turn it loose a few days a week and stay super lean. Unless of course

you are like, you know, a swimmer or something and you just swim for seven hours a day. Right. Right. I mean, that's, that's what happened when I was a college athlete. I literally ate whatever I wanted and it was just disgusting food. Like looking back, if I knew what I knew now, I would have been a better athlete. Right. I would just would have. But anyways, like then once I got into finance and I was sitting down all day long, that's when like I literally gained 30 pounds in like three months. It was just because you're eating. Yeah. Your habits were engineered to your previous. Exactly. Exactly. So I guess, you know eating, yeah, your habits were engineered to your previous. Exactly.

Exactly. So I guess, you know, if you just, as you know, of course, it's ultimately comes down to kind of the calorie balance. I mean, if you're just eating way more calories than you're expending, I mean, it's just, you're going to gain weight. And I think when you have those like three meals a week or days a week where you're just eating a ton of food, it's most likely you're going to add some, um, some fat. And one more kind of quick thing, I think, don't think we touched upon is alcohol. I mean, the, the, one of the biggest challenges I find with guys, um, who, you know, kind of are unable to get to that next level, um, is, is

alcohol, uh, because there's something strange about alcohol in that even if someone drinks a little bit, it just affects their physique and affects how they look. And I don't know if you've come across this yourself, working with people and with clients, but I think alcohol is definitely the biggest challenge. It's not even eating too much. There's something about alcohol that inhibits people's, I guess people lose control of their basic desire to want to stay lean, right? Because if you drink a little alcohol, then you start eating more food and it's just kind of this chain of events. But anyways, I think alcohol is one of the biggest challenges guys face to kind of getting to that next level and staying super lean. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've, I've run into that. Not myself. I I've never got in,

I never got into drinking myself, so I can't honestly say I've experienced it myself, but yes, I've, I've come across it many times working with people and some people I will say had the, I guess, character or the constitution for it where they could it could be very restricted and it wouldn't, it wouldn't turn into anything more than what we, what was planned. And if it would say it's once or twice a week, they wanted to have some wine with, you know, also in a meal that wasn't a very high fat meal because obviously you want to, I mean, well, I mean, this is, this is not, I guess, not so obvious. I've written about it for anybody that really stays up on my stuff. It's obvious to you, but one of the problems with alcohol, physiologically speaking is there's no, uh, metabolic, uh, method

for turning out the alcohol, turning ethanol into, into body fat, but, but it does, it does basically increase the rate at which your body stores, particularly not, not only diet fat, but also carbohydrate into fat. So you're basically like you turn into kind of a fat storing machine when you're, when you're drinking alcohol. And then what kind of foods do people normally eat when they drink? Well, fatty, disgusting foods. Um, so, so that's basically the worst case scenario, but if you can be very disciplined with your alcohol intake and if it's, if it's limited to, I mean, I'd say my, if we're talking about getting and staying really lean, you probably have to I'd say if we're talking about getting and staying really lean, you probably have to limit it to probably once per week.

And if it were not very much and it were with a meal that's not a very high fat meal, it should be fine. But like you said, Mark, very few people can do that. Totally. I think it's one of the challenges. And I think potentially one reason why you're so successful is you probably haven't been drinking too much, which is a good thing, right? I think in all seriousness, the kind of big drinking binges, I just don't think that...

Listen, I did them all the time in my early 20s and even through college. And kind of looking back, I don't think that they were the best best thing or really necessary. And, you know, these days, it's rare, I do that really rare, that I kind of go out and drink a lot. I mean, I usually have one or two drinks if I'm kind of out with friends. And that's it. Or I don't even drink at all. So and alcohol, it's really, again, I think it really comes back to my kind of philosophy on health, which is, I just want to maximize my vitality and maximize my energy and alcohol kind of takes away from that. And so that's kind of how I've structured my whole routine and by optimizing for health and vitality, it, the by-product is a super lean body. And I think that's kind of cool, right? Like, I think that's kind of how it works and that's how I think about it.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would agree with that. I mean, I wouldn't say that that would be the case for everybody because I think- Right, of course. You take research on set points, right? And I know there's still a lot more questions than answers, but basically some of my understanding, I wrote about this, I think it was a little bit ago now.

So if there have been large advances, then I'm actually not aware of them. But I did a bit of research some time ago on it. And long story short is your body, all of our bodies tend to have a certain body fat range that we kind of settle in. And there are a number of factors, a number of reasons for why this is. And long story short is some people just are able to stay very lean much easier than others. They don't really have to deal much with hunger and they can have good energy and have good vitality. Whereas somebody else doing the exact same thing would really not feel good

and would feel much better, uh, with three or 4% more body fat. And that's a fantastic point, Mike, in that it's all individual, right? It's all, uh, you know, for me personally, like it works, right? Like that, like I just maximize my energy and I have a lean body. I think for other people, they might need to be even more even stricter, you know, with their kind of eating patterns, and kind of with their exercise in order to kind of get that, you know, super lean look. So I think that's a great point. And, but I think overall, the concept of, as we've been discussing of kind of limiting variety of food, it's just a no, it just makes it much easier. I think, you know, drinking plenty of water, not drinking too much alcohol. You know, a lot of these kind of simple but powerful tools

and strategies can really help people kind of get to that next level and stay leaner for the long term. Absolutely. Now on lifestyle, was there something you wanted to share there? I guess, I guess the big question I think for most people would be social life because because how do you how do you go out and and still have a good time without like eating a bunch of shitty food and drinking a bunch of alcohol basically. It's so funny, you know, like, I mean, obviously, I've been there, like, what does a good time mean? Right? Like, what is like, I can have a good time reading, I can have a good time hanging out with friends. I think ultimately, it kind of depends on where people are in their maturity level, kind of what a good time means to people like a good time to some people means doing a triathlon, right. So of course, I think, you know, in terms of just kind of going to events, and I live in Santa Monica, right? Like, it's not like super remote, like there are people here, there are a lot of events going on. So, so yeah, like I go to events, I go out, I just tend to try to get back, So, um, so yeah, like I go to events, I go out, I just tend to try to get back, uh, you know, to my apartment, like 10 or 11 o'clock.

And if it's like, if I'm out later at night, I'll try to be like back at 12. And I tend to get up pretty early around like five or 6am. Um, you know, at least during the week, I, it's usually around 6am, um, when I get up, but, uh, the past kind of of month I began at the 5am. So I've been going to sleep a little earlier, but anyways, you know, back to your kind of question about having fun. Like I have an amazing, I really enjoy my life. Like I don't go out like I used to when I was younger or nearly as much, but I still

go to fun events. I go to like, you know, do a lot of different things. I explore a lot. Even last year, I actually traveled around the world for three months doing solo travel and I stayed lean and fit the entire time. And I was not able to have what I wanted all the time for food. And I still was able to do it because I followed a lot of the principles and strategies we discussed today. But yeah, I think it's so subjective, what people do for fun. And like, I think it's so subjective, uh, you know, kind of what people do for fun. And, and again, like I'm just an active person. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the long story

short, right. Is like if, if eating, uh, very calorically dense foods and drinking alcohol is your idea of fun, that's, that's, that's fine, but you're never going to be, you're never going to be able to stay really lean. It's just not going to happen. Exactly. It's going to be damn hard. And I think it's a fantastic point. Unless you can exercise like six hours a day, then yes, nothing matters at that point. Sure.

Good luck out eating how much energy you're going to be burning, basically. Precisely. And I think you said it in a nutshell. Perfect. Well, those are all the things that I had on my list. Oh, I want to hear quickly. So the cold showers, how's that going? Is California, does California have cold water though?

That is such a fantastic question. Is it like a lukewarm shower? So when I was in New York, I mean, it was cold. It was- That's truly cold. I'm in Virginia and I've been doing it. And yeah, I mean, it's getting better a little bit, a little bit warmer now, but through the winter, that shit was ice water. It burned. Like if I kept my face under the water too, too long,

I would get brain freeze. Honestly. No, no, no, totally. And actually that's ideal. I mean, it's, it's definitely cold out here. Um, it's just not as cold. Like I remember I was in, uh, as part of this kind of travel adventure I went on. I remember I was in, as part of this kind of travel adventure I went on last year, I was in Stockholm and it was like ice. It was like the coldest showers I've ever done. It was ice cold and it was fantastic. I think I ended up kind of- Are you doing it for the same reason I am? Yeah, health benefits is basically nah. Yeah, I am this like, yeah, health benefits is basically nah. Like, yeah, if you, if you are into winter swimming and you go out and spend hours a day in ice cold temperatures, then there are some health benefits probably, but two

hours, two minutes or two or three minutes of a cold water a day. Nah, it's more just about doing something that sucks. And then you become kind of Stockholm syndrome to it. And then you just somehow come to like it. That's precisely why I do it. It's like, listen, you're getting up in the morning. You're a little groggy. The last thing you want to do

is go into a freaking cold shower. And it's just like, you know what? You suck it up. You do something you don't want to do. You get outside the discomfort and you just do it. That's the primary reason why I do it is to kind of build that muscle, right? That taking action muscle. And then, you know, of course, there definitely are health

benefits. And immediately after the shower, I'm like ready to freaking go. Like, I don't have that half an hour, an hour of like groggy, like, where am I thing going on? Like, I am ready to freaking go. And so that's definitely huge, but I totally agree with you. It's like building the taking action muscle. It's awesome. I love it. And I've been doing it for about a year and a half, two years now, every freaking day. Yeah. Same, same. I've, I've skipped some days when I've been sick just because it just, it just felt like a really bad idea that I already wasn't feeling good, but otherwise every day.

Awesome. Although I spend some time in Florida and that is not even, I actually, I mean, I still do it, but that truly is a lukewarm shower. There's no such thing as a cold shower in Florida. Yeah, I can imagine. Okay, awesome. Well, that is everything that I had on my list. Is there anything that,

uh, we didn't touch on, on these topics that you think we should include? No, I mean, if, you know, if any of the listeners here have any questions for me, um, you know, I'm happy to help out. Um, yeah. Where can people find you and your work? And it's, uh, you know, you can definitely check out if you go to built lean.com. Um, you know, we have hundreds of free articles that I've written and we have have other contributors who have written, you know, medically reviewed, properly referenced all that stuff. And yeah, like, you know, love for for some of your, you know, listeners to check it out and learn more. But yeah, I hope it's been helpful. And again, like Mike, I really, really appreciate you, you know, inviting me on here. I'm, you know, huge fan of your work. You know, you know, inviting me on here. I I've, I've, I'm, you know, huge fan of your work.

Um, you know, you work tirelessly, uh, you know, to help your listeners improve their health and wellbeing and, and, uh, you know, get stronger and bigger. And it's just, it's just really amazing. So, uh, again, I'm, I'm thrilled to be here and I'm really grateful for the opportunity. Thanks a lot, Mark. I appreciate that. And, uh, yeah, no, I'm glad that we could, we could get on the show and, and, and discuss this together. So, you know, I'm glad that we could get on the show and discuss this together. So I really appreciate it. And for everybody listening, go check Mark out. Not only is he a good guy, obviously, but he knows what he's talking about. He has a great website.

Again, a lot of good information on it. And definitely one of the good guys. Definitely one of the guys worth following. So builtlean.com, go check it out. Hey there, it is Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did, and don't mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you're listening from.

This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility and thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then just subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any of the new goodies. Lastly, if you didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at mike at muscleforlife.com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback, so please do reach out. All right, that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode and I hope to hear from you soon. Oh, and before you leave, let me quickly tell you about one other product of mine that I think you might like.

Specifically, my fitness book for women, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger. Now, this book has sold over 150,000 copies in the last several years and it has helped thousands of women build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 1,200 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths

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