Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Mark Rippetoe on Training for Strength vs. "Aesthetics"

Episode Date: July 15, 2016

This is the first part of a two-part interview with the always enlightening and entertaining Mark Rippetoe, who you’ve probably heard of if you take fitness seriously. In case you don’t know who Mark is, though, he was a competitor powerlifter for a decade and is the author of several books, including two classics that everyone that’s into weightlifting should read--Starting Strength and Practical Programming for Strength. Mark has also coached thousands of people all over the country on proper barbell training through his seminars, which you can learn more about at www.startingstrength.com. He’s also just a fun guy to chat with because he’s colorful and just shares his thoughts and openly and isn’t one for euphemisms or minced words, which I think is refreshing, really. So, in this interview Mark and I talk about the training for strength versus “aesthetics” and why there isn’t as much of a difference between the two as many people think. This podcast really drives home an important lesson I learned years ago: It’s very hard to build an all-around muscular, visually appealing physique without getting really strong on a handful of key exercises. If you’ve been following my work for any amount of time, you already know this (and if you’ve implemented any of it, you’ve experienced it), but I think you’ll still get something out of the conversation. 5:19 - The simple truth about training for strength vs. aesthetics. 7:40 - Why strength programs are great for women. 16:00 - How getting strong helps guys get the bodies they want. 21:05- Want to get stronger? Then you probably need to gain weight. 24:00 - The simplest "hardgainer" cure out there. 29:55 - How much "good weight" can a guy in his hormonal prime gain in a year? 41:50 - A simple caveat for guys embarking on strength training. 50:44 - How much do genetics influence our strength and looks? 57:27 - You use training to get big and strong and diet to get lean. ARTICLES RELATED TO THIS PODCAST: Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training: https://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell-Training/dp/0982522738?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&tag=mflweb-20 Practical Programming for Strength Training: https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Programming-Strength-Training-Rippetoe/dp/0982522754/?tag=mflweb-20 How to Make Meal Plans That Work For Any Diet: legionathletics.com/diet-meal-plans/ How to Create the Ultimate Muscle Building Workout: http://www.muscleforlife.com/muscle-building-workout/ The Best Way to Gain Muscle Without Getting Fat: http://www.muscleforlife.com/the-best-way-to-gain-muscle-not-fat/ Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey, it's Mike, and this podcast is brought to you by my books. Seriously, though, it actually is. I make my living as a writer, so as long as I keep selling books, I can keep writing articles over at Muscle for Life and Legion and recording podcasts and videos like this and all that fun stuff. Now, I have several books, but the place to start is Bigger Leaner Stronger if you're a guy and Thinner Leaner Stronger if you're a girl. Now, these books, they basically teach you everything you need to know about dieting, training, and supplementation to build

muscle, lose fat, and look and feel great without having to give up all the foods you love or grind away in the gym every day doing workouts that you hate. Now you can find my books everywhere. You can buy books online like Amazon, Audible, iBooks, Google Play, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, and so forth. And if you're into audiobooks like me, you can actually get one of my books for free, one of my audiobooks for free with a 30-day free trial of Audible. To do that, go to muscleforlife.com forward slash audiobooks. That's www.muscleforlife.com forward slash audiobooks. And you can see how to do this. Now also, if you like my work in general, then I really think you're going to like what I'm doing with my supplement company, Legion.

Now, as you probably know, I'm not a fan of the supplement industry. I mean, I've wasted who knows how many thousands of dollars over the years on worthless supplements that really do nothing. And I've always had trouble finding products that I actually thought were worth buying and recommending. And well, basically I had been complaining about this for years and I decided to finally do something about it and start making my own products. And not just any products, but really the exact products that I myself have always wanted. So a few of the things that make my supplements unique are one, they're a hundred percent naturally sweetened and flavored. Two, all ingredients are backed by peer-reviewed scientific research that you can verify for yourself because

on our website, we explain why we've chosen each ingredient and we also cite all supporting studies so you can go dive in and check it out for yourself. Three, all ingredients are also included at clinically effective dosages, which are the exact dosages used in the studies proving their effectiveness. This is important, of course, because while something like creatine is proven to help improve strength and help you build muscle faster, if you don't take enough, then you're not going to see the benefits that are seen in scientific research. And four, there are no proprietary blends, which means that you know exactly what you're buying. All our formulations are 100% transparent, both with the ingredients and the dosages. So you can learn more

about my supplements at www.legionathletics.com. And if you like what you see and you want to buy something, use the coupon code podcast, P O D C A S T, and you'll save 10% on your order. All right. Thanks again for taking the time to listen to my podcast and let's get to the show. Hey, Hey, it's Mike and I'm back with another episode of the podcast. And in this episode, it's actually the first part of a two-part interview with the always enlightening and definitely entertaining Mark Ripito, who you've probably heard of if you take fitness seriously. But in case you don't know who Mark is, he was a competitive powerlifter for about a decade, but is better known now as the author of several books,

including two classics that I think everyone that's into weightlifting should read, and those are Starting Strength and Practical Programming for Strength. But Mark has also coached over the years, I mean thousands of people at this point, all over the country on proper barbell training through his seminars, which you can learn more about at www.startingstrength.com. He's also just a fun guy to chat with because he's colorful and he just kind of shares his thoughts openly and isn't one for euphemisms or minced words, which I think is refreshing, really. And in this particular chat, Mark and I talk about training for strength versus training for aesthetics and why there really isn't as much of a difference between these two things as many people think. And this podcast really just

drives home an important lesson that I learned years ago, and that's it's very hard to build an all-around muscular, visually appealing physique without getting really strong on a handful of key exercises. And these aren't the exercises that you see most people spending most of their time on in the gym. Now, if you've been following my work for any amount of time, you already know this and you know where it's going. And if you've implemented any of my stuff, you've experienced it, but you're still gonna get something out of the conversation, even if it's just motivation

to keep doing what you're doing and a few laughs. So here it is. Mark, thanks for coming back on the show. It's been a while. People have been asking for you. Here you are. Well, here I am. You know, I'm always here.

I am at startingstrength.com, available virtually 24-7. My time is yours. Well, thanks for coming back. And so we're going to do a two-part, which is going to be fun. So in this first part, just for the listeners, so they know what we're going to be talking about here, it's going to be training for strength versus training for aesthetics,

which is a word I've kind of come to hate. It's kind of a cool word before a bunch of 19-year-old YouTube goobers got a hold of it. Yeah. Do you know there's such a thing as an esthetician who is somehow different than a cosmetologist? Yeah. So what's the difference then? I don't know. I'm just saying. it's a stupid word. You're absolutely right. It's a wrong. Aesthetician maybe is more comprehensive. I don't know. I don't know if they do makeup and hair or if they do makeup here and liposuction. Yeah. I have no idea. Maybe there's like skin care in there somewhere. I bet someone in the comments. We'll clear us up on that. What do you want to bet?

Yeah. So first, first to clear it up, get something cool. Yeah. Right. No. But so, you know, in the fitness sense, aesthetics is the is the look. So it's, you know, looking a a certain way having a physique or whatever um and yeah exactly i mean it comes down to kind of like abs and chest and right shoulders and everything from the abs and upper body basically everything that you can see in the on is aesthetics. Abs, arms, traps. I think they call that a yoke. It's the same thing that we've dealt with in the gym industry for four

decades. What can you see in the mirror standing in front of the dumbbell rack with your pants on? Pants off is when the gym closes. Your special time. Yes. That's when we give personal attention to our clients. Some people have no shame. Some people, they don't give a shit.

They just hope. No, some people are in a management position and just take advantage of it. Shamelessly take advantage of it. Their hair is too long to care. I mean, there's this one guy that would come in the morning. I would go early in the morning, and he would wear these tiny little red shorts, spandex, no underwear, didn't give a shit. He was one of the more amusing guys. You didn't see the ridges on the glands and shit.

He did not care. He did. He would go up. He would talk to girls. Actually, I liked him. I never even talked to him. I didn't know his name, but every time he was there, I was happy. Well, what a maniac.

I mean, yeah, the gym business is full of those kind of colorful individuals. Yeah, yeah. So let's dive into the subject at hand, which is the difference between training for strength and training for aesthetics. And then, you know, you can go over the programming of it, but then also it'll help people understand what direction should they go in based on their goals. Well, that's a good question, and we don't deal with it much on our end of the deal because we're primarily involved with strength training. And strength training is how strong are you? What numbers are you moving? And that's our primary emphasis. Yeah, I mean, that's your stock and trade, of course. That's

our deal. I am aware of the fact, having been in this industry for 40 years that the vast majority of the market is interested in strength only in that it is a very very effective way to to enhance aesthetics so to speak if if you walk in my gym and you uh are either too skinny or too fat and you're not happy with your appearance, I put you on strength program and it doesn't matter which one of those problems you've got because a strength program as a side effect improves aesthetics. And so that's the way we've always approached it. I know how to make a guy stronger. I know how to get a guy squat up 405. I can get a guy's deadlift up to 500 pounds. I know how to do that. And the process of doing that improves aesthetics every single time, no matter what his problem is. People look better when they are stronger.

And since the process of becoming stronger is an easily quantifiable process, we know how to program that. We can make that occur. And without exception, every time that happens, a guy is going to look better because of the fact that human aesthetics are primarily controlled by the perception of body contours, which are defined by muscle bellies. Yeah. Your muscles get bigger when you get stronger. Especially your big muscles. I mean, those are the ones that tend to, those are the ones that look good.

And I would say it isn't just for guys, too. It's for girls as well. Well, that's obviously true for girls. But a lot of girls think that, especially with strength training, you know, the heavy weightlifting is just going to make them look bulky. think that especially with with strength training you know the heavy weight lifting is just going to make them look bulky well i have a friend who's a plastic surgeon down in uh uh round rock texas and as a part of his practice i mean women come to him specifically to look better he has a little different take on it than we do his interest interest is kind of, you know, following along with what we're talking about right now is primarily aesthetics. So he will have them squat because

it is his contention that the squat makes more difference in a woman's aesthetic appeal because it specifically works the hips and the legs and the butt and the butt and uh and uh to a lesser extent the calves but but the effects of the squat are specifically what his research into the subject has has indicated to him are the most important things that you can do. Now, in kind of know that anecdotally, I mean, women were concerned with their lower body development because that's the part that the that the girl can. Women can affect the appearance of that by themselves without the surgeon. of that by themselves without the surgeon, right? Now, in contrast, he does not recommend that women do any type of exercise that's going to add muscle mass to the arms, lats, or shoulders. And he and I have gotten in arguments about this.

My position, and I'm sure it is yours too i appreciate muscle a muscular upper body on a female yeah and uh most people that are involved in in physical culture would agree with that yeah i mean women girls start with so little muscle that you him to gain a muscular upper body for a girl. That's a relative statement. Well, yeah, but keep in mind that he is approaching this from the standpoint of a plastic surgeon. He deals with the general population. He doesn't deal with us. He doesn't deal with physical culture. He doesn't deal with weightlifters.

He deals with women who want to look better for whatever reason they want to look better. And his assessment is that in terms of the general population's perception of pleasing aesthetics, the squat, and basically only the squat is the thing that makes the most amount of difference in the shortest amount of time. So he recommends that. And in fact, he hands him my book in his office and prescribes, if you will, squats to these ladies that come in for aesthetic manipulation. And, you know, you and I can sit here and say, yeah, we'd like the sweep of a nice muscular forearm on a female, but his research indicates to him that the general population

is only looking at the ass. Yeah, and the legs, you know, because then you wear the tight, you know, pants or the jeans or yoga pants or whatever. Sure. That's where you – That's going to get more attention than your arms. Yeah, right. Well, no, don't misunderstand.

He is saying that muscular arms are a negative, that they are a drawback to the perception of feminine physical beauty to the general population. I am not in a position to comment on that because I know what I like. You know what you like. We're pretty much in agreement on that. But the general population, there's people walking down the street at lunch in Brooklyn with their copy of Cosmo in their purse so they can read it while they're having lunch at a bistro are not the same kind of, they have a different set of standards than we do. And I guess that's fine. I'm not concerned with them. I'm, again, concerned with getting people stronger. I mean, I can speak for, I've worked with and heard from thousands of everyday normal women that just want

to, you want to be in better shape. And I've found that a lot of the, a lot of the attention initially is on stomach. Like they want a flat stomach and they want butt and they want legs. But then as they get into weightlifting more, they come to appreciate muscle definition or as they would say, you know, depending on the terminology, they'd say, oh, you know, I'm getting toned arms. And now they never really would have thought that they wanted some muscle definition or muscle in their arms. But now that they're getting it and they're getting leaner, then they start getting into it. You know what I mean? But yeah, there aren't very many people come into weightlifting saying, I wish I had better forearms. What he's learning now through his association with us is that aesthetic standards do in fact change over time. I mean, as you spend time in the gym, as you go through the process

of getting muscular arms and a lat sweep and a little bit of breadth to the deltoid and a little trap definition, I think most women don't bitterly cling to their previous aesthetic standard. I think it evolves and matures over time as they begin to appreciate the process of getting stronger. So this leads back to our original premise. What is the relationship between strength and aesthetics? And I think probably the best answer to that is that strength is the process by which human aesthetics are improved. And in order to fully appreciate that, you have to do it. Right. Totally. Now, I would even argue that strength programs are probably more directly

relevant to women with how they want to look because strength programs are generally more lower body centric. Lower body volume is just higher than that. Well, they're correctly designed. That's true. Yeah. But, you know, cause you're doing a lot of squatting and pulling and, uh, you know, I've found though with guys, depending on, see, I don't know if this has been your experience, but in my experience, just working with a lot of guys, their upper bodies, uh, develop slower than their lower bodies, bigger muscle groups. You know, your legs are going to, a guy can get legs and a, and a butt that he's happier with a lot faster than he can get a chest and arms that he's happy with. The bigger his muscle belly, the faster it grows. And I think that traps grow real fast too.

That's another thing that you see with him. Within two years of a guy starting a program that features heavy deadlifts, he's going to have traps. His neck's going to grow an inch and a half. These are just the immediate side effects. And as you say, it doesn't take very long for this to happen. Arms, forearms, biceps, those take a while. I'd say, yeah. And chest, too, seems to just be a stubborn muscle group

for a lot of guys i mean that's just speaking anecdotally it just seems to take a lot of work to go from you know where a guy's normally starting doesn't have really shit for chest because we don't use our pecs in a in daily living all that much so they just come in very underdeveloped and it can take a couple years to get to a to that point where you know they look uh where i would say that fitness model type of look enough chest to where it's clearly it shows through your shirt it's a it's a feature of your physique as opposed to a weak point you know what i mean well here is another uh this is a very good very good place to place to talk about this. If we're talking about the muscle group chest, this is the kind of thing that if you are interested in developing your chest, quote unquote, you better be benching heavy.

heavy because all of the cable crossovers and dumbbell flies in the world will not make the damn thing grow like getting your bench press up to 350. If you want a noticeable chest through your shirt, the most important thing you can do is get your bench press up. It's just because chest diameter, chest girth is what we see through clothes. In the same way that we see your hips in terms of hip girth through clothes and thighs in terms of thigh girth through clothes, this is why the big exercises are the things that make the greatest amount of difference in the shortest period of time in terms of aesthetics, because they are the things that make muscle bellies bigger. Now, unless you plan on spending most of your day naked, 10% of your body. Yeah. There are places in the world where you need to do this.

But for most of us, we remain clothed. And as a result of that, you're probably better off with 16% body fat and a 350 bench than you are with 10% body fat and a 225 bench. Right. You know, just in terms of external physical appearance. Right. People see you in clothes. If we have to strip you naked before we can tell that you train, then you're not really understanding the process by which other people perceive your aesthetics. Right. Your aesthetics are not visible. We don't care about your razor abs if you've got a shirt on. are not visible. We don't care about your razor abs if you've got a shirt on. Now, I'm 60 years old and I've got a pot belly because one, I don't care. And two, I don't really care. So, you know,

I eat too much and I drink too much and all this other stuff. But I, you know, I probably But I weigh about 230 at 5'8". I can still deadlift 500. I can bench close to three. Knees are kind of creaky these days. I'm not squatting heavy much. But aside from the pot belly, I look like a relatively muscular, probably 50-year-old guy instead of a 60-year-old guy. Yeah. And this is because I weigh 230. If I took my belly off, I'd still weigh 215, and I'd still look like I trained. But if you guys that are watching this, you go ahead and laugh at my belly all day, but I want to tell you something.

If you're 5'8 and 165, nobody knows. You don't look any different. Unless you're wearing extra small shirts. Unless you're wearing razor painted on shirts. Nobody knows any difference between you and a guy at 165 that doesn't train. Nobody can tell. It's a psychological thing though. You you get leaner you just don't want to ever be fatter that's another show Michael that's another show entirely

we need to get a psychologist on to talk about that because I understand I understand all of us that have trained have gone through that phase where we're we're just i and this is most most uh common thing we deal with on the boards and at seminars

is how do i get big without losing my razor edge and the the real answer to that question is you don't yeah and i'm real sorry about that but if you want to get big and look big and look strong you're gonna have to gain some weight some of that weight is going to be body fat we know how to get that off later but you get ready to go to the bodybuilding contest okay but the process by which muscle grows is anabolic anabolic processes affect all of your tissues, not just your muscles. This is extremely important to understand.

That's a good point because I run into quite a few guys that they'll just look at dudes on Instagram and you'll have guys at 6-7% body fat pulling massive amounts of weight and they don't realize how prevalent drug use is. They don't understand the drugs involved in that.

If you're looking at a guy on Instagram with 7% body fat who's dead lifting 700, he's taking a bunch of drugs. I'm not here to judge that. I don't care. The guy wants to take drugs, he needs to take drugs. But we're not talking to him. We're talking to you guys, you guys out there who are trying to look better in your clothes, who are trying to get big and strong and look like you're big and strong.

The process of doing that is going to cause your body fat to go up a little bit. Now, here's the interesting thing. You could take a guy and sit him on the couch and give him three bags of Doritos and a gallon of Coca-Cola and have him gain 100 pounds of body fat eating Doritos and drinking Coke, all right? 25% or so of that body mass gain is going to be muscle tissue. It's going to be lean body mass. Because the processes are inseparably intertwined. Now, you can take another guy and have him gain 100 pounds of body weight over the course of two or three years of heavy training,

course of two or three years of heavy training, of eating correctly, eating a nice clean high protein diet, devoid of sugar, all the healthy stuff we know we're supposed to do. And drink a bunch of milk and get big and strong. And 75%, maybe only 70% of his body mass gain is going to be muscle mass. And 25 to 30 percent is going to be body fat. In other words, any body weight gain is composed of both lean body mass and body fat. You can skew the results in the direction you want them to go. Right. But you cannot separate the two processes. Exactly. Even that just boils down to you need to be in a caloric surplus to really gain muscle effectiveness. And a caloric surplus is going to result in a body fat increase. We'll worry about that later on.

No, I guess we could give the exception of somebody brand new to weightlifting. They can be in a deficit and gain a fair amount of muscle for their first bit at least. Sure, but they're still going to gain some body fat. They're going to go from 8% to 12%. Oh, no, people start high. I mean, like a guy starts at 20%. Yeah, that's a special case. Let's talk about the guy that starts at 35% because that happens all the time.

Yeah. Okay. Now, once again, let me make this clear. Yeah. Okay. Now, once again, let me make this clear. In the absence of a bunch of drugs that you know specifically how to use, you know specifically how to dose, how to administer, any body weight gain is going to be composed of both lean body mass and body fat. And I think even seasoned, experienced contest bodybuilders that gained a bunch of body mass in the off-season are going to see some body fat. Yeah, they do.

You can't be on that many drugs all the time. Exactly. So you have to rest. You're going to gain some body fat. It's perfectly normal. You're supposed to gain some body fat. You guys that are 8% body fat, that are looking at your abs in the mirror weighing 135 pounds have got to get past this. You've got to get past that because you're going to gain some

fat and you need to gain some fat because the processes that also enable you to gain muscle mass are going to make you gain some fat. And that's good. 8% for somebody not going to a contest is an awfully low body fat percentage. And nobody, even at a contest, is going to hold on to 5% body fat for more than a couple of days. And this is all, all right, so let's, here's a more, here's a more likely. I would say like what I tell guys because they want the abs, and the abs don't really start coming in nicely until you get a little bit under 10%. And my general thing is you're going to have to – exactly what you're saying. You're going to have to deal with having a higher body fat percentage to gain the size that you need to gain. And then when you're at the point where you're like, I no longer want to get any bigger.

I'm happy with my physique. And then when you're at the point where you're like, I no longer want to get any bigger, I'm happy with my physique, then you can maintain a lower body fat percentage. But don't expect much to change with your physique for as long as you are staying at 8% body fat. You're just not going to gain much more of anything. No. Not strength or size. It comes very, very soon. Strength and size are, again, inexorably intertwined. If you want to get bigger, you have to get stronger, and that's just all there is to it. But here's a more common situation.

Let's say you've got a guy walks into the gym and he's kind of, he's a fat guy. He's got 35% body fat, okay? This guy is already in a situation where anabolic processes are taking place. He's not emaciated. He's not skinny. Things are growing, even though they're not the things we want. in his aesthetics than the little skinny, shrimpy, 135-pound kid on the internet who is happy weighing 135 at 5'8 because he's got abs. That guy's got psychological problems. My guy with 35% body fat who walks in the gym, he knows he's out of shape, he wants to get strong, he wants to lose his belly, this guy is going to eat enough. We're not going to have problems changing his body composition. Now, nearly the kind of problems that we will have with a little anorexic kid with an eating disorder because that's what it is. He's grown himself an eating disorder.

I'd much rather deal with a 35% body fat guy because all I have to do with him is get him to quit drinking Cokes. All I have to do with him is get him to quit drinking Cokes. If I get him to quit drinking five Cokes a day, I can make a gigantic improvement in his body composition and his aesthetics over a two-month period without really having to do anything. I'd much rather deal with an overweight guy than a little skinny guy who's intensely focused on staying underweight and skinny. That guy's got problems that are outside my bailiwick as a strength coach. It's real hard to talk those guys into eating enough. It's easier to talk the 35% guy into dropping sugar. I've dealt uh a fair amount of of of those people that come in just underweight and don't want to gain fat and have i mean some some can't be persuaded but um quite a few that i've dealt with were able to get over that and then

actually kind of like we were saying with the girls that have come to appreciate muscle elsewhere they came to appreciate getting stronger and being bigger and like you were saying with the girls that have come to appreciate muscle elsewhere, they came to appreciate getting stronger and being bigger. And like you were saying, you know, we, we spend the majority of our time with clothes on. So then, so they, you know, they, they actually do it. They go, they, they, they say, I'm going to give this three months and I'm just going to, you know, do what Mike says. I'm going to eat enough food. I'm going to train heavy and see what happens. And then people start noticing it though. And people, Hey, you've been working out or, and then they, they you know so it becomes self-reinforcing if you do it for a little while if they'll just shut up and listen rehabilitative that's all right well you know and i'm i'm i'm proud for for kids that can get past

that little phase but a lot of you guys listening to us right now are right squarely in the middle of this you you don't believe Mike you really don't believe me and you're not going to do anything about it and to you I would just say you know you need to listen to us you need to listen to us there's a reason why we're here and you're there okay we've been doing this a long time and we know what's going on and you have to give your muscles the anabolic environment in which to grow if you want to be perceived as anything except a little skinny shit all right if you want to be perceived continue to be perceived as an annoying little skinny shit

you know and Life goals. You know how aggravating you are at Thanksgiving with the family? You have no idea how much your family hates you. Not me. I think last Thanksgiving. No, I'm not talking to you. I ate, I think, seven plates of food last Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's the way it ought to be.

That's the way it ought to be. But the guys I'm talking to, you guys that I'm talking to right now. Not everyone. Not everyone. I have to stick up. Mike, now listen to me. I'm telling you there's a bunch of guys right now who go to Thanksgiving and have the turkey. And that's all they'll eat is the turkey.

Cut the skin away from it. Yeah, yeah, with the skin removed. People get tired of that. And these kids don't understand that everybody hates them. And I think it's just my duty to tell you guys that really not only are you not doing yourselves any favor, but you're a pain in the ass. Okay. Now, let's talk about this. In our program, let's say we take a guy in the middle. Let's say we take a kid that walks into the gym at 155. He's 19 years old.

He's 155. He's just out of school. He's still right directly in the middle of the anabolic window. His testosterone levels are high. He's a perfect specimen to grow. All right. If this kid will come in and do the program that we're talking about, and it's just a strength program. It has no arms in it aside from chins. It's based on the five major exercises plus chins. We're going to train three days a week. Every workout, every one of his numbers are going to go up because he's going to put more on the bar to lift it. He's going to force himself to get stronger, right? He's going to, let's say this kid is, he's 155 pounds. He's 5'9". He's underweight. I'm going to have this kid drink a gallon of milk a day, a gallon of whole milk a day in addition to whatever else he's eating right now. I'm going to yell at him about his protein intake, try to get his diet cleaned up.

I don't want the rest of his meals to consist of fast food and bread and a bunch of goo. I want him to eat nice and clean. I want him to add a gallon of milk a bunch of goo. I want him to eat nice and clean. I want him to add a gallon of milk a day to that. That kid can weigh 185 pounds of a slight increase in body fat and gigantic amounts of perceptible muscle belly mass increase in about two and a half, three months. mass increase in about two and a half, three months. Every time. He can gain 30 pounds of good body weight. That's a lot of weight. I mean, how much do you say is actual lean mass though? Obviously there's water, there's glycogen. It's not, you mean? Water and glycogen and all that stuff is lean body mass. Lean body bone. It's bigger tendons, bigger ligaments, heavier bones,

heavier muscles, whatever they're composed of. And the ratio that we see is generally about 70-30. So he'll gain 70% lean body mass, 30% body fat. What was his body fat? Was it 12%? What was his body fat? Was it 12%? So now he's 16%. That's fine with me. That's fine with me. The kid's now strong. His self-perception is improved because he sees the process of going from 155 to 185,

and it didn't take very long for him to do this. Same kid will be 205 by the end of the year. Same kid will go from 155 to 205 in a year. That's not an exceptional performance either. That really is not. We see that all the time. Anybody that walks in in that demographic, in that age group, underweight young men, can gain 50 pounds of good body weight in a year.

Every single time and i don't know what your position is on this but i might we've done it for i've watched this happen for 40 years i know yeah yeah no i mean you have more experience than i do i would say it really um i would like i just don't want i don't i don't try to give people too high expectations. I tell guys that in your first year of quality lean mass, if you gain 20, 25 pounds, you've done a good job. That's what I'm – We can get better than that results because I am not concerned about him gaining some fat. Sure. The trick is the milk.

Sure. It probably never – I mean that's just a lot of calories. It's an easy way to do a lot of calories. It's a hell of a bunch of calories, but it's good calories. It's good fat. It's good protein. It's good carbs. It's the food that is designed to make mammals grow. It works very well. Now, all you little skinny snots in the audience are saying, I have heart disease. You're not going to do this the rest of your life.

I'm talking about for six to nine months. Six to nine months. That initial growth spurt, we kick it off with a big calorie surplus. We teach your body to grow. We give it the stress it has to have to adapt. And then we give it the tools it needs to recovery. We sleep. We eat too much. We focus every workout on handling more weight. Now, how would you modify that for, let's say, someone who is, they're just not in their hormonal prime anymore. Someone then, you know, say.

I modify it for the guy that's 35% body fat. We do exactly the same thing without the milk. Right. So just less calories. Oh, there is too. But specifically without the milk. A guy that's 35% body fat is not having any trouble growing as I mentioned before his Antibiotic state is guaranteed right all right. It's a different guy for whatever reason he doesn't drink the milk Not everybody drinks a gallon of milk This is what we get criticized for all the time if you're if you're I mean I guess it's it's just Body drinks a gallon of milk a day. Sure. Doesn't. Sure. Okay. But if you are skinny, if you're 155 at 5'9", you're 19, you're underweight, you know you're underweight, you want to be bigger.

The best way to do it is eat more meat than you're eating right now and add a gallon of milk to your diet. You're not going to do it the rest of your life, but it will solve the immediate problem you've got. And as a result of that, your aesthetics will improve. I assure you that we're not interested in your razor abs. We want to see your shoulders, your traps, your hips, your legs, and your forearms. These things are the things that make the initial aesthetic impression on other people looking at you. Your abs are the least of your problems. They're the least of your problems.

They're also easy to get. You just lose fat and they're there. Lose fat, but if you weigh 135 pounds, how easy is it to lose fat? Well, I mean like if you gain – There's nothing to lose. But I'm saying that there's nothing to a fear from gaining body fat. It's just so easy to lose. Who cares?

Yeah, exactly. But my bigger point to address the aesthetics of it is that if you are 135, if you're 5'8", 135, and you lose five pounds, what have you accomplished? You're more as muscular than you were before. Oh, but my abs are. Boys, we're not looking at your abs. We're not looking at your abs. You can't go out on the street without your clothes on.

You'll get arrested. It will be even a bigger pain in the ass doing that than you already are at Thanksgiving. You have to understand that bigger is aesthetically pleasing. Bigger is aesthetically pleasing. And I will say that a lot of girls will say the same thing. This isn't just two dudes talking about it. But even though I am kind of an abs guy and I stay lean and all that, I will – I mean I'm married, so I don't have to care. I'll just do it for myself, whatever I want to do.

But if you ask just to take a panel of girls out there and you have a guy at 15% who's big, strong, and then you have, again, even I would say of course clothes on. There's no contest between him and the dude who's 7% but a lot smaller. But a lot of girls would even take with clothes off would take the guy at 15% who's just 20 pounds bigger. Well, I'll tell you, I've talked to a lot of girls about this, and you've seen the studies and you've seen the interviews. Guys who are fastidious about their abs, are extremely fastidious about their abs,

are perceived by most normal women as narcissists. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's just, I'm sorry, Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's just, I'm sorry, boys. That's the way it is. Especially, you know, you have the self-absorbed.

It kind of shows through in your behavior. Yeah. And, you know, I don't... But then there's that double standard, though, because then you'll have

like the latest Thor movie and you'll have Chris Hemsworth with his shirt off and then girls are... Chris Hemsworth, that's the that's the biggest casting error in modern film you think of a better now hey I think the numbers I'm a great big fan of the Marvel movies and I think Chris Evans as Captain America was a fabulous casting choice that guys he's great in that part.

But Hemsworth weighs 185 pounds. Thor doesn't weigh 185 pounds. So you want to see something like in Game of Thrones, like half Thor, Bjornsson, or whatever. Well, yeah. I mean, they should have found a guy that could carry that role, that was a sufficiently decent actor, and introduced him. And he should have been 6'2", 245.

That's Thor. Yeah. Right? It's a marketing play. Hemsworth is a huge... I understand what's going on, but Jesus Christ. You know, I mean, as an aficionado of Norse mythology myself. You're personally offended by it. I'm personally.

I'm deeply offended. Deeply offended. You guys are worshiping a skinny guy. Thor is big. Thor is big. He's big and strong. And that hammer was not light to him because it's magic. hammer was not light to him because it's magic the hammer's light to him because he's thor because he's big and strong it's just all there is to it oh that was disappointing and you know

in further just like we're talking about it further reinforces this this stereotype uh you know these kids go to the movie and they see a little skinny guy with abs and he's held up as a superhero. And that's just unfortunate. Evans, by your standards, is a skinny guy with abs. Yeah, but Captain America is a different character. It's true. Captain America is a different character. And Evans doesn't look as skinny as Hemsworth does.

Somehow, he makes an impression on me that he's about 15 pounds heavier than Hemsworth. Just his height or just his muscle bellies and how his body's formed? He looks good in a uniform. Hemsworth is just a little skinny snot and he's not Thor.

That's the weakest casting of all. And that first Thor movie was just... I almost didn't see the second one. Yeah. The second one was better. What a great franchise. Have you seen Civil War already? I saw.

I actually wasn't able to finish it. I had to leave in the middle of the movie, but I saw half of it. You went to the theater, had to get up and leave? Yeah. Well, it was my wife's birthday party, and she needed my help, and I had to go. Oh, man. There's a time to turn off your cell phone. Well, I couldn't.

I knew she was going to be calling. I was hoping that I could make it through, but it didn't work out. Well, the thing comes out on DVD here. Yeah, then I'm going to finish it. I've got it ordered. I don't like to go to the theater. I don't want cell phones ringing and shit. I aggravate easier now than I used to.

You're just an ornery old guy now. Ornery old. What's the term? Curmudgeon? That works. Asshole. All right. Let me post something to you here.

So I've heard from quite a few guys just over the years that have started with a strength training program that, again, going back to even something I mentioned earlier in the podcast, that well-designed strength training programs generally have a higher volume on the lower body. They just hit your legs and butt more than they hit your upper body because of the amount of squatting and deadlifting. Right. Well, we're squatting and deadlifting exactly so so so guys will do that uh for a period of time and experience everything you're talking about and they they see positive changes throughout their entire body they get strong they love weightlifting blah blah blah but they feel like now their lower body is getting too big for their liking. And then they find that reducing the volume on the squatting and deadlifting and increasing the volume on the bench pressing, the overhead pressing, even in some cases, arms. I mean, some guys, their arms are very stubborn. It takes, you know, you do your heavy pulling, but then it takes quite a bit of additional just

biceps work for them to get to where they feel like their proportions are good. So they feel like where now their shoulders are big enough. Uh, their biceps are, are big enough in proportion to their shoulders. What are your thoughts on that? Because I've, I've seen it many times and I tell guys to kind of expect that if you're going to go into a pure strength program, your lower you in six months from now, you might look in the mirror and be like, damn, my legs and ass are huge, but my upper body is kind of underwhelming. Well, it's been my experience that this goes back to one of our earlier comments. Aesthetics change with experience. As you do a properly designed strength program, you're going to be doing a program that is more heavily dependent on hips, legs, back, lats, traps. Because of the fact that

that constitutes most of the muscle mass of the human body, working two big major exercises and hit those muscle groups just reflects the proportions across the body with which your muscle mass is distributed. I think it's probably good to have big hips and legs and you're going to, if you're doing a balanced program you're going to work those more because that's where most of the muscle mass gets right now i understand that most people you know the majority the vast majority of people even people who are primarily interested in strength are going to train arms and i think you need to do some arms you know i think that chins and some barbell curls, some heavy barbell curls are probably enough. I think that since we're doing squats every day, since we're doing either presses or benches every day, and since we're probably doing chins twice a week, that our version of a proper strength program reflects a little bit more emphasis on upper body, actually, because we're doing all these chins and presses and benches.

And, no, I completely agree. I think that most guys want a bigger chest. Most guys want a bigger upper body. So the question then becomes from a strength versus aesthetic standpoint, what makes your chest grow? What's the most effective way to get your chest bigger? Flies, cables, or get your bench up to 350? Of course. So then the question becomes, how do you most effectively get your bench press up? Well, if you bench four days a week, that's not going to work. You're going to over-train stuff.

You're going to get tendon insertions inflamed. You're going to get to the point where you're injured. You can't train. You have to approach this sensibly in a way to get your bench up. But the best way to get your chest big is to get your bench big so then the question becomes well how do i achieve the side effect of a big chest by getting my bench press up right and then we do an effective bench press program i think that that uh you know you're going to do if you're training three days a week you're going to do upper body

every one of those days right and you're going to do chins twice a week i think we're i think we're we're you know closing in on the problem here but yeah see here's another thing that people don't understand and it goes back to this to the statement you just made. Squats make everything grow. If you do nothing but squats for a year, let's say something, you know, some religious revelation has occurred to you and you're not going to bench, and you're going to do squats and squats only and do heavy squats and nothing else for a year,

what do you think is going to happen to your chest and arms? They're going to grow. Have you had people do that? I've never had anyone do that actually. The effect of the systemic anabolic effects of squats are undeniable. If you squat and don't do any benches and don't do any chins, don't do any arms at all, and I've trained cyclists that do this. Their arms get big and their chest gets big accidentally.

I mean mechanistically, I understand it. It's growing. The whole thing is growing. Growth is a systemic response. And that just comes back to what you were saying. response yeah and that just comes back to what you were saying is it doesn't just affect yeah the muscle groups that are directly involved in the kinetic chain of that particular exercise right it affects the organism right okay i mean i've seen it obviously years ago with my body and then just working with so many people that like you you were saying, you just don't get –

if you do a bunch of isolation magazine type, you know, bodybuilding type stuff, sure, if you're new to weightlifting, you're going to get something out of it. But, you know, give it three months and then that's about it. Well, that's what the skinny kid, the 135-pound kid – But you go to the gym and that's what you see. That's what he's doing. Yeah, you see the skinny kid doing the curls and then doing the dumbbell pullovers and then doing the tricep pushdowns.

But never have you ever seen him pull or squat. Yeah, I mean the bench press you might see for obvious reasons. He's going to bench sets of 12. Oh, that's the heavy. That's the heavy. Yeah, that's heavy. Sets of 30. Sets of 30.

Heavy day. Yeah, heavy day. So, yeah, I mean, I guess from what I've seen is that it's just – it depends on what people – and this is kind of what I tell guys in the company. It depends what they want to do because the higher volume on the lower body is going to bring it up faster. Where you put your work in is where, you know, is where, is where you see your, your, your, your, your, your progress and your results. Um, so I guess that's just something that I have always kind of let people know that I think strength programs are a great place to start for everyone, but just know that in time, depending on how your body responds, don't be surprised if your lower body is, uh, you get to a point where you're like wow my lower body is has outpaced my

upper body if you don't make any sort of adjustments for it well that hadn't been my experience is all i can tell you uh i but again i deal with a different demographic than you right right and all of my guys are big and strong and you, you know, most of them are carrying 18% body fat. They're big and strong. They look big and strong. Their arms are big and strong. Chests, shoulders, traps, big and strong. But I'm dealing with guys at heavier body weights than you are.

And I would ask you to consider that maybe that's part of the reasoning here. Sure. And also my guys, when they come and they find my stuff, they also want to get to a certain look as quickly as possible. Sure they do. And that's usually an upper body centric. I absolutely agree. I know the demographic. And like I said, we're just dealing with two different groups of people. Those guys that are dissatisfied with their upper body might have seen their upper

body grow were they a little bit less tight on their diet on the way up. That would be my from a far observation of the situation. I think they might have grown more arm. They might have grown more chest and shoulder and lat sweep had they just gained another 20 pounds. Right. Yeah, and then I think I'd ask you to think about this too. You've probably seen the genetics come into play where some people's – we all have our genetic strengths and our genetic weaknesses.

When it comes to weaknesses, some guys, I mean, if biceps are a genetic weakness, it can take a lot more work for that guy to get to his 16, 17-inch arms or whatever than it will take to the person whose bicep, all they ever did was pull heavy, and they have massive arms. Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Biceps are almost, they're probably 90% genetic anyway. Yeah, yeah.

They just are. Deltoid separation, those capstone deltoids, genetics. Or drugs. Well, I know a lot of guys that take a lot of drugs that don't have capstone deltoids. You're born with those. Big caps with big separate lateral medial gastric development. That's genetic.

You are not going to grow calves on a guy that doesn't have any calves. You can do as many calf raises as you want to. You can do as much direct work on those things. They will not grow. They're genetic. I've dealt with that where, I mean, my calves grow. I've been doing a lot of calf stuff, and they've grown slowly, but genetically, I had no calves. My dad has no calves. Even though I

grew up playing ice hockey, doing things you think would give me calves. Doesn't matter what you do. Calves are genetic. At the competitive professional bodybuilder level, that activity is controlled level that activity is controlled essentially 100% by genetics in other words a person without the genetics can do anything they can train any way they want to turn they can take as many drugs as they can possibly afford mortgage the house thank you as much drug as you want to but you will not place in the top 10 at the olympia without not just good genetics but without top three without freak genetics you will not place and you will you will not place at a state meet at this point in time uh with uh with anything less than freak genetics and would you say that applies to strength too?

This is so difficult. No, it doesn't apply to strength. That's what's cool about strength. Anybody can get strong. Anybody can pretty much get real strong. But in terms of the aesthetic appearance of the muscle bellies, this is, you're either

born with it or you're not. This is what is so hard for kids to understand. We all grew up looking at the bodybuilding magazines. And we all were fed this weeder bullshit about if you do this program on page 17, then you will look like Robbie Roberts. No, you won't. You're not going to look like Frank Zane't you're not going to look like Frank Zane you're not going to look like Arnold

only Arnold and Frank look like Arnold and Frank you know these days it's a lot of these YouTube guys that yeah they have great physiques but they have had great physiques since they were 13 so that's the point but teaching that to these kids that are watching this podcast right now is very, very difficult

because they want to believe that they can do it too. And I don't want to discourage anybody from training. And I don't want to discourage, but what you have to understand is that if aesthetics are your only yardstick, the only way you have of judging your success, you're not going to be as happy with yourself as if you shift the motivation over strength. Because anybody, any intact male can get their deadlift up to 500 pounds. Anybody can. And that's a good deadlift. Yeah. And anybody, you can do it.

You can do it. You little skinny shit watching this can get your deadlift up to 500 if you'll just do what it takes. What you can't do is be on the Olympia stage. Okay? That's not a realistic goal. It's entirely controlled by things that are not within your purview. Okay?

But you can control how strong you are. And my advice to you is to get this thing out of your head and get strength into your head because strength goes up. Strength can be trained. You can make your deadlift go up for the next 20 years because it's entirely within your ability to control this. If you do the work,

if you eat, if you rest. And I would say that anyone can get a body that they're happy with. I mean, anyone can get a better body than they've got right now. Yeah. And by doing everything and building everything and getting nice proportions and getting to have want to get you're going to look good are you going to look as good as frank zane no am i ever look good as frank zane no it doesn't matter how many drugs if i were willing to do that and it doesn't matter i would never approach that so it's genetic it's frank frank has frank's gene frank genetics and nobody else did Chris Dickerson was another amazing Balanced physique didn't know how to train had no idea what right, but he was just you know Yeah, he was Chris Dickerson. He looked great. He looked great most of those guys at that level

Especially 20 years ago would not have 20 30 years ago did not do what we would call 20, 30 years ago did not do what we would call effective strength-based training. Yeah. Because they didn't have to back then. Now, these great big giant guys in the wake of Dorian Yates, all those guys are strong. Yeah. But that's a different physique than what was winning back in the 80s. Very different, yeah.

A whole different physique. Yeah. All those great big strong giant guys that look big and strong and giant are strong yeah because they're doing some version of strength training yeah okay but although i mean you had you had arnold you had what arnold franco i mean they were strong yeah they were pretty strong look at arnold's forearms next time you you see uh um in most of the places you see Arnold posed, his forearms aren't that strong a body part for him. He had amazing calves.

He was just a wonderful balanced physique. Arnold was not a strength-based. Later in his career. He started with powerlifting. He started with squats and deadlifts. I guess he did the Olympic lifts too because everybody did them back then. But all these guys that are carrying 300 pounds of muscle mass at 6% body fat, those guys are strong.

There's no doubt about it. They're strong. And guys, learn a lesson from that, okay? Big and strong is training. Big and strong is training. Uh, 6% body fat is diet. Yeah. And I'm afraid that the vast majority of you guys watching us right now are only doing the diet part. Okay. So that's my advice. I'll still, again, I'll stick up for, there's a good portion of the crowd that's right on board with this. Yeah.

I bet there are. Yeah. I bet there are. But since they're already on board, we're talking to the little guys that need the listen to what we're saying. Fair enough. And, yeah, that's what I've been preaching from the beginning is there's a reason why it's not just coincidental that more often than not, the strongest guys in the gym are also the biggest. There's a reason for that. So if you want to get bigger, you have to get stronger. And just commenting for girls, what a lot of girls, the idea that they're going to get bulky comes from the fact of

if body fat levels are too high and you just add muscle, yeah, you just look bigger. I mean, that's what happens. So, you know, girls tend to, at least a lot of girls that come to me, care more about that and they're afraid of that. And then they realize once they do it, that gaining muscle isn't the problem. They just need to be in the right body fat percentage range for the look that they want. It really depends on them. So, you know, a lot of the girls that I've worked with, they want to have that athletic, you know, defined type of look. They want to have muscle, but they don't want to look like overly muscular. And it seems to be about somewhere around 20% body fat with maybe 15 pounds of muscle gained from the beginning, 15 to 20 pounds at 18 to 20%

body fat. And then that is a sweet spot for a lot of the girls that I've seen. Yeah, 18, 20% body fat is a good athletic body fat percentage for women. I think that the vast majority of women in that situation are going to find that gaining gigantic slabs of muscle is not the biggest problem they're going to have. You know, women just don't do that. You already know that. You don't need me telling you that. But I also know that, once again, aesthetics change. As women begin to train, their idea of what is excessive muscle adapts along with their physical ability as it improves. Right.

And what they start off thinking is too much muscle may end up being just fine. Right. You know. Yep. Just fine with them. Agreed. All right. Well, I think we've covered everything.

I think we can leave it at that. I think that's a complete statement. Yeah. Yeah. I think we've covered everything. I think we can leave it at that. I think that's a complete statement. Yeah, yeah, I think so. What we have done is a complete statement of our position. Period, full stop. Absolutely. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, thank you.

Hey, it's Mike again. Hope you liked the podcast. If you did, go ahead and subscribe. I put out new episodes every week or two where I talk about all kinds of things related to health and fitness and general wellness. Also head over to my website at www.muscleforlife.com where you'll find not only past episodes of the podcast, but you'll also find a bunch of different articles that I've written. I release a new one almost every day. Actually, I release kind of like four to six new articles a week. Um,

and you can also find my books and everything else that I'm involved in over at muscle for life.com. All right. Thanks again. Bye.