Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Michael Chernow on Exploiting Talent, Creating Brands, and Building Relationships

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

A war has been waging throughout the philosophical and psychological community for centuries. Not a war with muskets, armored artillery, or laser guns, but more like professors throwing textbooks at one another and jabbing intellectual foes with concise essays and pointed papers of poignant arguments. I’m talking about the nature versus nurture problem, which is the debate about whether human behavior is determined by genes (nature) or environment (nurture). The answer isn’t so black and white, but needless to say, many people are born with innate talent and skill. One of those people is Michael Chernow, who I’m excited to bring onto this episode of the podcast. He hosts a podcast called Born Or Made, which explores this nature or nurture question through the stories of incredibly successful entrepreneurs and thought leaders. Michael is one of these success stories himself, though. Not only is he a trained chef who hosted the TV show Food Porn, but he’s started several thriving restaurant businesses, including The Meatball Shop (with 8 locations) and Seamore’s (a sustainable seafood restaurant). As a repeat success in the restaurant industry, Michael hasn’t just “gotten lucky,” but knows how to build effective brands and businesses. In this conversation, Michael and I chat about . . . How he turned his life around from drugs, alcohol, and an abusive household How much talent matters versus deliberate practice and conscientiousness The skill of meeting new people and building relationships and networks Why you don't have to be good at everything Effective communication and “how to win friends” The power of branding and knowing how to sell How he transitions a business concept and vision into reality His best cooking hacks (including how to make food tastier and the ultimate hack to eat healthier) And more . . . So if you want to learn from a “serial entrepreneur” what it takes to build a compelling brand and successful business, listen to this podcast! 8:18 - Do you think talent is earned or are people born with it? 12:03 - How did your talent help you get out of tough situations? 14:30 - What are your thoughts on the saying “talent isn’t formed by 10,000 hours but instead deliberate practice”? 24:21 - What do you mean when you say you can acclimate easily to people? 35:42  - What part of your process is most responsible for your success with multiple businesses? 44:41 - How do you know what ideas to follow through with? Do you just follow your instinct or is there a process you go through? 54:05 - Once you have a bunch of ideas and concepts, is it an editorial process from there? 1:22:10 - Are you creating restaurants that you would like to go to? 1:27:15 - Any tips or hacks for cooking better food? Mentioned on The Show: Michael Chernow’s Podcast: Bord Or Made Michael Chernow’s Instagram: @MichaelChernow Michael Chernow’s Twitter: @MichaelChernow Michael Chernow’s Website: michaelchernow.com Books by Mike Matthews: https://legionathletics.com/products/books/ Want free workout and meal plans? Download my science-based diet and training templates for men and women: https://legionathletics.com/text-sign-up/

Hello, and welcome to Muscle for Life. I'm Mike Matthews. Thank you for joining me today. Now, there has been a debate going on for a long time among philosophers and psychologists, and it has been about the nature versus nurture problem, which is the question about whether human behavior is mostly or entirely determined by genes, that would be nature, or our environment and our upbringing. Now, personally, I think it's a bit of both. And I also think that certain natures are more and less susceptible to or affected by environments and upbringing. And in this podcast, I'm going to talk about this topic and other things with Michael Chernow, who is a buddy of mine, a trained chef, the host of the TV show Food Porn, and somebody who has started and in at least one case sold

several thriving restaurant businesses, including The Meatball Shop and Seymour's. Now, Michael has his own podcast, which I've been on, called Born or Made, which is all about this nature versus nurture question. And in his show, he interviews people who he finds interesting to get their thoughts on nature versus nurture and to hear their stories and explore the lessons they've learned in the context of their personalities and of their innate talents that they discovered they had, as well as the environments that they have participated in throughout their lives and how those impacted their attitudes and behaviors and choices. And so that gives you a bit of flavor of today's interview, where Michael and I are going to talk about his story, how he turned his life around from drugs

and alcohol and an abusive household, and his thoughts on how much talent matters in success versus deliberate practice and conscientiousness. Michael also talks about the skill of meeting new people and building relationships and networks and how that is something that he credits a lot of his success to. That is his one superpower, so to speak. It is a talent he found that he had early on and it actually got him into a lot of trouble in the beginning because he didn't use it for constructive purposes, but then later he did. And as you will hear in this episode, that has played a major role in his success as an entrepreneur. And for what it's worth, that's also something that I have consciously worked on being good at building and maintaining

good relationships with the people who work with me, with vendors, with outside contractors, and so forth, because I've learned that that is the key to building an effective team. You have to care about people. You have to care about understanding them, really knowing what makes them tick, understanding their dreams, understanding their quirks, understanding what they do and don't like. And then you have to show them that you care about them and that you care about those things and that you want to see them do well. And if you can do that with people, then you can also earn the privilege of demanding better and better performance. You can hold them to very high standards and continue to put more and more pressure on them to do better and to grow as a person and as an employee and take on more responsibility and produce bigger and better results for the business.

And when you can do that consistently with each person you manage, you can build a very effective team that can produce exponential growth. Anyway, I think that's enough preamble for today's episode. I hope I have sold you on listening to it and I hope you enjoy it. Also, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one bestselling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, and Thinner, Leaner, Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever. And you can find them on all major online retailers like Audible, Amazon, iTunes,

Kobo, and Google Play, as well as in select Barnes and Noble stores. And I should also mention that you can get any of the audio books 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And this is a great way to make those pockets of downtime, like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning, more interesting, entertaining, and productive. And so if you want to take Audible up on this offer, and if you want to get one of my audiobooks for free, just go to www.buylegion.com and sign up for your account. So again, if you appreciate my work, and if you want to see more of it, and if you want to learn time-proven and evidence-based strategies for losing fat, building muscle and getting healthy and strategies that work for anyone and everyone, regardless of age or circumstances, please do consider picking up

one of my best-selling books, Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women and The Shredded Chef for my favorite fitness-friendly recipes. Hey, thinner, leaner, stronger for women and the shredded chef for my favorite fitness friendly recipes. Hey, Michael, thanks for taking the time to come and chat with me, my friend. Oh, thank you so much for having me, man. I'm super pumped to be here. Yeah. It's kind of just one of those neat, I don't know, little bits of serendipity where every so often somebody will find a book of mine or an article or a podcast and like it and reach out. And then I go check out what they're doing. And then I'm very interested in what they're doing. And this is why for people listening, that's how this happened. This is why

we're here chatting. That could not be more true. I started listening to Bigger Leaders Stronger. I loved the, it actually, I downloaded the book while I was taking a road trip down to Philadelphia from upstate New York to go pick up a rogue echo bike because they were not available online once the pandemic hit. And I was dying to have one in my garage gym. And so I listened to the book on my, whatever it was, eight hour ride and a little bit in the gym here and there. And I just love the way you break down everything in such a practical way. And, you know, I've been strength training for some time now, but just being reminded of the basics and the basics of nutrition and, you know, pushing to the curb, all the BS out there. I just, I truly, I loved it. And I was like, I've got to reach out to this guy. I think

this is, this is one of the best reads I've had in a long time. Thank you. And then you have a podcast as well, which might as well just quickly tell everybody if they want to go check it out, because you had me on your podcast and we talked a bunch of fitness stuff and life stuff and business stuff. Yeah. So my podcast is pretty new. It's about three, four months old and it's called Born or Made. It's on anywhere you find your podcast today. But the premise of Born or Made is talk to people that have inspired me and, you know, in many cases, thousands to millions of others. And I talked to them about the nature nurture question, whether they believe human beings were born with an inherent slash innate ability to get to where

they're at today, or if they were made over time through grind, grit and hustle. I think it's a really interesting topic to discuss. I do not know still if there have been any real research done on whether or not people are born with talent, if there's any real science behind it. Maybe you know, but I love to talk about it because I believe that most people that truly excel in a specific genre or arena or industry were born with something that they were able to capitalize on. So that's what the podcast is. It's fun. Yeah. So I was going to follow up and ask you. So on which side of that spectrum do you think it's mostly born or it's mostly made or maybe you could say earned?

I think it's 100% born. How does that apply to you? Because I want to get to your story. Let's look at your story through that lens because at one point in your life, you were not doing nearly as well as you are now, right? Absolutely. That said, I think the only reason why I'm alive today is because I was given a talent to connect with human beings. And I think that that is what my God-given sort of inherent skill set is and talent is. The reason why I think people are born to excel if they've reached a certain level of... it doesn't have to be financial success at all, but a level of success in their lives that makes an impression on other people and influences other people to want to do what they're doing. I know for me, from as early as I can remember, and I cannot point to any individual that motivated me to want to do these things. But from as early as

I can remember, I wanted to sell things and make things and have things. You know, I just always wanted to make and do. When I was like, you know, five, six years old, I clearly remember having toys that I didn't play with anymore or didn't want and asking my older sister to come downstairs with me. We lived on, I grew up in Manhattan in New York City and we lived on 87th street just off of second Avenue. And I would say, Hey, Nicole, would you come downstairs with me and help me sell my toys? And I was just, I literally would go downstairs late, put a blanket on the, on the street and put my toys out and try to sell them for a dollar. My son has tried a similar version of that, which is to sell some of my stuff.

Not his stuff. There you go. I mean, last summer, we were not in the middle of a pandemic. My older son was four. He's now five. pandemic. My older son was four. He's now five. And I got him really fired up to sell lemonade in front of our house upstate. And so I made a deal. But the truth is that it was really exciting for me. I don't know how exciting it was for him, but I made him a deal. And I was like, look, man, I will take care. I'll cover all your costs. I'll cover your costs. And then we'll go

out and sell. You're going to go sell. I'm just going to be your supervisor and you're going to pay me back the cost and you keep all the profit. And I was like, my labor is free. Don't worry about that. We went to the supermarket. We bought $20 worth of lemons. We bought a glass jar to put the lemonade in. We bought a thing of sugar and we made this like really delicious lemonade. And day one, my son on the street in front of our house sold $78 in lemonade. And I took my 20 bucks and he pocketed 57 bucks. That's like 57,000 for a little guy. And so we did that almost every weekend and he was making a lot of cash.

And so he started a bank account with that money, which is pretty cool. But like, I always think that way and I always have thought that way. And not only do I think that way in terms of just making and doing, but I love human beings. I love people. I genuinely have a, I'm just drawn to communicate with other human beings. And I've always had that

and I've always been good at it. And had I not sort of been given that gift, when I say I'm lucky to be alive today, like I use that to get me out of some pretty hairy situations. What type of situations? Like let's go back to the tough time. What was going on? Yeah. So I'll give you the sort of the story. So I grew up in New York city. My dad was an electrician and my mother was a secretary. My dad got sick. He was always sick. He was a juvenile diabetic, type one diabetes, but he got very sick in his late 40s and he had to go on permanent disability. So my dad was a miserable guy.

He was not happy. He was not meant to be a father and he was very abusive. And I know he loved me, but he just did not know how to be a father. So from an early age, I wanted to be out of my house because my dad was terrible. He was just terrible. And so I was always looking to get out and escape. And my mother was just sort of like this, like she didn't know what to do. She was caught in a really bad spot. So I don't blame them for anything that happened to me in my life in terms of the bad news. I know that they both did what they could do at the time.

We're all human beings and we make mistakes. And so I don't blame them for anything that I went through. Actually, I'm super grateful for all the things that I had to go through to get to where I'm at today. But anyway, I always wanted out and I was always looking for a way to escape. I had a hard time at home. And so at around 12 years old, I started smoking pot and drinking. And I got from that that moment on I was sort of a recluse I it got really bad at home Child services got involved because my father and I ended up getting very physical with each other on a regular basis I wasn't taking his shit anymore So I would just fight back and the police were at our house and finally

At this point I was like a full-fledged alcoholic and drug addict at 15 years old. But the child services said, enough is enough. We're going to take your son into foster care. I said, there's no way that I'm going into foster care. I'm out of here. And so I left my parents' house. I was sort of just this kid running the streets of New York, you know, sleeping on couches and staying wherever I could, but always somehow managing to find myself in a good situation because I was very, very good at charming people. And it wasn't like I was using it manipulatively necessarily. It was that like, I just knew and know how to acclimate to most situations. And that is the skillset that I've used in business and in life from, you know, from the day

one. And I would just to interject, I would say that that is something that most people can learn and practice and get good enough at that. That's my perspective. Maybe they're, they're not going to have that X factor that you're referring to. And some people are always going to be better. And then, you know, I think of a book by who was it? Jeff, it was called talent is overrated. There are a few books on this topic that are interesting. Colvin, Jeff Colvin, talent is overrated. Also Anders Erickson, his middle name is Andy, which is first. He goes by, his first is an initial, might be H. Anders Ericsson, but he's the guy who did the famous 10,000 hour research that was actually misinterpreted by Malcolm Gladwell, that it

was not Anderson's conclusion. Ericsson, I got to pull up his name now. It's going to drive me crazy. Anyways, it was not his conclusion that you have to spend 10 000 hours to become an expert there is a bit more nuance to it than that but so he has a book it's anders so it is it's anders erickson i thought he had a had an initial name from his name so anders erickson is his name and he has a book his most recent book is called peak and that's a good you could say summary of like the current weight of the evidence regarding achieving expertise and also looking at it from the perspective of how much does talent really matter. And this isn't an area that I would consider myself an expert in. I've probably read a bit more about it than

the average person and based on my understanding and it aligns with all the anecdotal data I've collected just living life that talent doesn't matter as much as people think. There's a lot to be said for conscientiousness and what Erickson calls deliberate practice. So practicing in a way that is productive and smart. And I think it's an encouraging message because it says that, hey, if you're just smart enough, you don't have to be a genius. You just got to be smart enough. And if you're willing to work and you're willing to put some thought into the work that you're going to do, not just kind of randomly exert yourself at something, you can get to competent. Maybe you're not going to get to expert necessarily. Maybe you're not going to get to world class.

Most people are not. But who cares? We don't need to be like with what you're talking about. You don't need to be a world-class charmer to get ahead in the world, I don't think. But what are your thoughts on that? Look, when I first started doing the podcast, my biggest fear was that it was going to be somewhat discouraging for people that were on a path. And if they feel like they weren't born with the skill set and the podcast is saying that you got to be born with it to be the best at it,

that's a bit discouraging. However, I will say that I do believe that people are born with certain things and those that are born with those, that specific talent are going to be better than those that are just trying to do or sort of gunning after this goal. But aside from that, I believe that every single human being is born with something. The journey in life is to actually try to find out what that something is as fast as possible. The goal, like if you're pushing a boulder uphill and it keeps on rolling down and you keep on getting fatigued and it keeps on hurting and you can never get it past that peak, you never feel like you're even close to the peak, that might be a sure sign that whatever you're going after isn't necessarily for you. I can use a very specific example of that.

When I first opened my business, The Meatball Shop, when I was 28 years old, I felt like I needed to be good at everything in business, specifically when you don't have the cash to hire a CFO or a bookkeeper. That was in my case like I'm not a numbers guy. I never have been. Numbers are not at all interesting to me. There are thousands of people that are totally enamored and, you know, infatuated with sifting through financials and trying to figure out systems that will shave a point here and a point there. They love that puzzle. I just don't. When I launched my first business, I thought I needed to be because A, I didn't have the money to hire somebody to do it. So I did actually have to do it, but it was driving me crazy because I just wasn't good at it. It didn't, it was, it was nothing about it that was interesting for me, but I did it. And what I learned about that was it ended up taking probably

three to four times longer for me to get done what somebody could have done in an hour would have taken me four. So it was truly, truly a pity that I wasted so much time or spent so much time. I shouldn't say wasted so much time, spent so much time trying to figure out the financials of the business when I could have been really doubling down, tripling down on the other things that I do so well in creativity and brand building and team building and motivating people. But I agree with you that there's no doubt people can totally want to get somewhere and put in the work and the intelligent practice and be good at something that they might not necessarily have been born with.

When I was a kid, I loved hockey. I loved hockey, like loved it. But I was never a great stick handler ever. Like I could, I mean, a puck handler, like I just was not great at it. So I ended up playing defense and I had a wicked slap shot. So I would stay at the, sit at the blue line and just wrist shot, slap shot. That was my thing. But like skating down the ice with the puck and weaving in and out of people, I was terrible at it. I just, and I wanted to be so good at it, but, and I practiced hard, but I just never got really good at it. You know, I do think that everybody's born with a talent and a skill that comes naturally and easy to them. And unfortunately, you know, when we have things that come really naturally to us, it doesn't feel like we're putting in a lot of work because it's

easy for us to do. And that's the little, in my opinion, that's that like moment of grace when you can say, wait a second, this is very easy for me. This does not feel like I'm working so hard. I'm going to put everything into this, everything, all of it. That's when you find that thing. everything, all of it. That's when you find that thing. Me telling somebody, oh yeah, you know, what is it that you do well? And my answer to them is develop relationships. People are like, I don't really know how much of a skill that, you know, like that's great. But like, and I can tell you honestly, that that is the foundation of my success in business. 1000%. Like I go hard on my people skills and

develop, you know, relationship developmental skills. How does that manifest specifically? I, if I meet somebody, for instance, yesterday, great example, I moved upstate, I left New York City in the pandemic, moved upstate with my family, and I'm going to open up a restaurant up here because that's what I do. That's what I'm going to do. I know nothing about operating a restaurant in the suburbs. I've never done it before. So this is a new thing for me. However, I do know that getting to know the people in the restaurant industry up here is something I can do with my eyes closed. So I made a few phone calls, was introduced to a few people, and spent half the day with

a dairy farmer who used to be a fashion designer who sold the business in New York for a lot of money, came upstate, wanted to be done with fashion and opened up a dairy farm and has this great dairy farm where he's making all, you know, he's, he's making all this ice cream for all these people. And he's got his own little ice cream stand. And, and he, and I, I just knew that I was going to meet him and I was going to develop this relationship with him. And by the end of the day, he was like, dude, I feel like I have a brother up here.

And I was like, me too. I spent 9 o'clock in the morning until around 1130 I spent with Van. And then I had another meeting with a guy named Howard in the town of Rhinebeck who owns a great restaurant in Rhinebeck who he introduced me to a few days ago and said, you should go meet Howard. And so I spent two hours with Howard in between my time with Van because I went back to meet with Van later on. And Howard and I became great buddies. And then he introduced me to a friend of his who's trying to sell a restaurant that's not on the market. And, you know, it's just that's how it works. I'm like very, very

comfortable meeting people. And I know how to acclimate to most people. It has always worked out that way for me where I walk into a room, I have a positive energy, an optimistic presence, and I go out of my way, I make it my job to connect with if not one, two or three people in the setting that I'm in and really develop a relationship. And I'm assuming that that's something that you alluded to this or, well, almost just came out right and said it, that this is something that you've always been able to do. It's not something that you had to read books about, or you had to remember, you didn't have to use mnemonics. Okay. Remember first step one is do this. And step two is this. It's just something that.

I've always been able to do it. I'm sure you've thought about this because you're a self-aware person. Why do you think that is for people listening who maybe have not had that experience many times, if at all, what though, is it specifically about your demeanor or maybe when you say that you can acclimate easily to people, what do you mean exactly and how does that play out? So you're meeting somebody for the first time and why are you good at it? I believe that it's a culmination of a bunch of things. I think I generally have, I'm a good listener. So I actually listen to people and that is something I've actually had to work on over the years. I think there's a big difference between people listening and people waiting to speak. And so, you know, when I was younger and my entrepreneurial endeavors,

I definitely was waiting to speak more than I was willing to listen. But as I've grown in as a business person, I listen more than I speak. I think people appreciate that when you're genuinely paying attention and listening. But pre that, I think I was born a kind soul, the kind of person that I don't judge people right off the bat. I'm not an instinctually judgmental person. And I really enjoy dialogue. And so, and I always have enjoyed dialogue. I think it probably is genetic at some capacity. My grandfather is a very social person, was a very social person. He's passed away, unfortunately, through COVID, which is crazy, but true. But, you know, he was a very social person and, you know, made it his job to be just very polite and very kind, even though he was like, my grandfather was like this big, you know, powerful military guy, but he was just a really nice guy. And I think that I probably got that from him because I see a lot of similarities in our life and in my life and my grandfather's life.

I can honestly say I don't really know. Like, I love meeting people and I love talking to people. My wife kind of hates it because we could be out at dinner and if the waiter comes over and starts talking, I could spend 30 minutes talking to the waiter at dinner. I'm a talker. I'm very much the same way. There's a side of me, though, that's kind of a dick as well, to be honest. Like, it's interesting.

I can be very much the gregarious type of person that you're describing. Or and this is only maybe with people. It's only in certain situations, again, if I really look at it. Especially things related to work or things I, things related to like when I'm pursuing goals and then if I perceive people getting in the way, there's a part of me that can just be a dick as well. But I resonate with what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, look, I think that I've kind of, you know, there's definitely moments where I've been a dick, but I think probably 99.9% of the time I will keep my, you know, there's no doubt I have motivation and I'm very ambitious. The way I tend to get to where I want

to go is through kindness and empathy. And that's just the way I've always been. I've always been that way. I've, you know, I laid out, you know, when I'm in my leadership role in any business I've created, I very clearly in a kind way define so that everybody can understand the rules and regulations. I'm very clear from the very beginning so that when I have to be the boss and fire somebody or reprimand somebody, it's not coming out of left field and it's not coming out in an asshole kind of way. It's like, hey dude, or hey, you know, whatever, you know, like whoever I'm talking to, look, we spoke about this. It seems to me like you don't want to work here. You haven't said that. But based on what I explained to you guys in the very beginning and your actions currently, it just says, hey, I don't want to be a part of this thing. So you tell me, do you want to be a

part of it or do you not want to be a part of it? If you don't want to be a part of it, that sucks, but I get it and it's fine. And then tell me and let's just part ways. If you do want to be a part of it, then I'm going to have to write you up and you can never do it again. And that's it. And people appreciate that. If you're very clear and concise upfront in regards to a leadership position, you literally lay them out. You lay out the rules in a very nice way. And then when somebody fucks up, it's not coming out. They're not like, oh. Yeah, it's not arbitrary. It was already established. And they're also like, I've probably hired, I don't know, well over a thousand people. I mean, both of the companies that I've created, when we're operating at capacity, have somewhere

between 300 and 400 people each. So at any time, there's 700 people working at the meatball shop in Seymour's. And I've hired at least 75% to 80% of all the people over the years to launch the business. And I've also fired probably the same amount. That said, I could guarantee you that if we got on the phone right now and called up 75% of the people that I've had to fire and I asked them to come back and work for me, they would say yes because of the way I treat them when they're working at the company and the way I've had to part ways with them. I've had to part ways. And the truth is that I just, I genuinely love doing it. Like it makes me really happy. I love talking to other people and making other people feel good and getting people excited about something. Yeah, absolutely. And that's such a powerful, I don't know if you, I mean, you could call,

I guess you'd call it a skill or an ability, I guess those are kind of just synonyms, right? But that's like a meta skill. And it's just adding one more dimension to a meta skill that I've spoken about here and there, I guess, probably in book review episodes of just the ability to communicate effectively. Well, just think about Dale Carnegie, one of the best books ever written, as far as I'm concerned, how to win friends and influence people. My business partner, Dan Holzman, who's my best friend, you know, my partner at the meatball shop, he does not have the people skills that I have at all. He just doesn't. He demands respect. He's very good at what he does, but he's an asshole. And that's how people describe him. And that book has been a book that he's really read over and over again and actually gives out to managers when they get hired

specifically in the kitchen, how to win friends and influence people because it's such an integral part of business. I believe that because of my relationship skills and my development skills, because of my relationship skills and my development skills, I'm more valuable to somebody as sort of a resource because of the trust they have in me, as opposed to my ability to manage a P&L. It's just, and there's a reason why that book has been praised so many times and it's on like most, you know, successful people's top 10 list because it really defines what it means to, to be a good person in business. Yeah, I totally agree. My only, I would say that's not, maybe it's not a criticism of the book per se, but it's a criticism of how many people I've come across in business use the book is, and I immediately got a sense of this in you. And I feel like I have a pretty good gut feeling when it

comes to people. I can trust my instincts most of the time after I've interacted with somebody a bit in terms of, is this genuine or not? And in your case, I very much sense that it's genuine and I got that right away. Whereas in many other cases, I know that they are just, they're running their Dale Carnegie script on me and they're not actually interested in me. They're really just looking for what they want and how they can get to what they want via me. And I don't take personal offense at that, but I would say that there are, I can think of several instances where I actually would have preferred somebody not try to use the Dale Carnegie script on me and just be straight up and make it clear that essentially what they're looking for is a transaction. They're not looking for a relationship.

They don't care about me. And they're not going to say it necessarily that harshly, although I would appreciate that more than the smarmy, we're all in this together. And I admire so much with all the flattery, the fake flattery. And so I see that I see a lot of that in business. And yes, it does work. And I see people who are good at it and who certainly succeed with it to some degree. But I would say that in your case, there's something to be said for the authenticity of it that you probably were doing. You probably, when you got around to reading that book, if a lot of it was probably obvious to you and you were already doing it, it was just second nature. And you're like, isn't this, this is, isn't this kind of just what it means to be like a good person? You're absolutely right. Like I read the book and I was like, Oh, I do that. Oh, I do that. Oh,

I do that. Oh, I did. It was cool for me to see that. And, and also like it's similarly in your book, you know, bigger, leaner, stronger. Like it was great for me to read, to listen to that book and say, you know, like, it's awesome to know that all the majority of the stuff that you were talking about are already things that are implemented into my routine. I think that it's very clear, right? Like my puck handling skills are like the people that are trying to read the Dale Carnegie script, right? Like I was trying my best, man, but like everybody knew as they, all they had to do was watch me skate down the ice and not really be able to handle that puck. Yeah. You weren't going to be the center. It just wasn't going to happen. Let's keep that kid on the blue line. You know what I mean?

Totally. What other skills, and this is just a selfish question because one of my favorite elements of business is marketing. And up until now, it's been more about persuasion, direct marketing, selling stuff. But I've also had an abiding interest in branding. And it's something I've been reading more about because I've realized that the power of powerful branding. And I think up until now, I've done certain aspects of Legion's branding well, other aspects not so well. So I'm trying to, of course, strengthen what is strong and then shore up the weaknesses. But from what I can see, another aspect of, and because it comes from a creative place, I'm sure this is also something that you have always had a knack for minimally when you were young, you were just interested in it. And that's the creative part of branding, right?

And creating, it's not just a widget to sell. And many people, I get often get asked business questions and from a lot of times it's people who are wanting to get into business for the first time. And I always have book recommendations and I can point people to helpful resources. But what is that process? You've done this now. You're a repeat offender in terms of building successful businesses and successful brands. in terms of building successful businesses and successful brands. What is it about your process that you think is most responsible for the success that you've had, again, with multiple brands? And that's an important point just to highlight it and to punch it up because this is something

Ray Dalio talked about in his book Principles, and it has just stuck with me, and I really agree, is that before you consider somebody reliable, you have to look at how many times have they succeeded at something because anybody can get lucky and have one round of success in an activity. But if somebody has had two or three rounds of success, that now you can't just attribute to luck. And so that's, that's where you're at in your career as an entrepreneur. And again, from what I can see, one of your major strengths seems to be creating brands that people just like the first impression is that's cool,

or I want to check that out. And what does that process look like for you? It's a great question. So another thing that I think I was kind of potentially, and I wouldn't be able to get deep into the analysis of this because I don't know where this comes from, but I would consider myself like a visionary. And so when I'm thinking about creating something new, The minute I have a foothold in something, I can close my eyes and see it literally. And in my case, my expression and creativity tends to come in the form of a restaurant. And it's probably because I started working in restaurants at a very young age. And that's where I felt comfortable because I was around people, I was around food. And that's where I felt comfortable because I was around people, I was around food.

But really, in my creativity, it expresses itself in the form of a restaurant. And when I close my eyes, I'm standing inside the restaurant that I'm going to create, actually. Like I can see, I'm building a new concept now called Finally Found. And I'm standing in the middle of the restaurant right this second. I mean, you can't see me, but I'm closing my eyes and I see everything. I see the color. I see the walls. I see if I'm looking around, right now, if I close my eyes and I see the vision of the space, I see a glow from the wood fire. I see white walls. I see hand-hewn beams. I see steel with windows, like lots of windows. There's skylights. It's in a barn style building.

The tables are raw edge wood tables with steel table bases. I don't really know what the chairs look like. The bar, if I'm standing in the center of the restaurant and I'm looking at the front door, on my left is the bar and on my right is the big kitchen with the hearth and the wood-fired grill system. I love the picture. I can see it too. Yeah. So that is something that like, I just went through that with you. And obviously I've been thinking about it for some time because I've been developing this concept, but that's literally how I am able to start developing

these things. And I tend to use... And where did the seed for that come though? Because when we spoke a few weeks ago, you hadn't mentioned this. I don't know if you were working on it yet or not. It sounds like this is something that has come together just in the last month or so, or... So I had a concept that I was working on in New York. I built Meatball Shop in 2010.

I ran it for four years. I sold the majority of my equity to my partners there to then go create Seymour's, which was my second business. I opened up that business in 2015. I opened up six Meatball Shops, then I sold. I opened up Seymour's over the course of three and a half years. And in November of 2019, I sold the majority of my equity to my partner there so that I can then create another brand called Creatures of Habit. And I think what happens is I love to create the brands, build the teams, establish who we are in culture, and create value for the company and then I want to get creative again and that's just the kind of entrepreneur I am and so you know after we opened up our sixth restaurant at Seymour's that was in 2017 end of 2017 early 2018 I just knew at

that point that I was going to start to get a little squirrely and I wanted to create another brand. And my fault in business is that I have not done well enough at explaining to people that what would be really great is if there was a bunch of investors that wanted to invest in a restaurant group where I was sort of the captain driving the brands and the concepts. We were not only thinking about opening up a restaurant or a multi-unit restaurant, but knowing that I, as a creative entrepreneur, are going to want to open up a number of them over the course of whatever it is, 15, 20 years. And so once I start to get really creative again, or want to get creative again, you know, my partner's like, but what do you mean,

we're building this thing? And I'm like, yeah, we are getting we are building this thing. But where I really shine is in the development and the team building and the culture creation. And so unless we want to go back to the investors and convince them that we should think about doing another one, I have to go do what I'm really good at doing. And that's common with people who are good creatively is they often are the, they're the starters and they are often a lot less interested in the change, the running of the business and just the day-to-day operations. That's it. That's it. Exactly. So anyway, so I sold my equity in November of 2019

and I developed a new concept called creatures of habit. And I built a whole, I had investors lined up for that. And then the pandemic hit, you know, nobody was really interested in investing, you know, a grip of money into brick and mortar businesses in New York City. And I don't disagree with them. So I had to literally just take that whole pretty much year's worth of work and push it to the back burner and say, I'll get to this at another date. I got to start getting creative again. And so when I moved my family upstate at the end of March is when I really started thinking about the next, what I was going to do or what I'm going to do. The creatures of habit concept doesn't work where you are or is it? Creatures of habit is a, so basically the idea of creatures of habit is in major markets, specifically New York, where I'm from, we've learned that a healthy lunch fast is what people want. They, you know, like the sweet greens of the world, the chops, the just salads, even the kava and the, you know, and there's a few other concepts, these fast, casual,

quick service concepts that have really just sort of taken over. People want that. They want to toss salad or just like a really nice healthy lunch delivered very quickly in a counter service. And so knowing that I'm obviously, you know, I mean, not obviously, but I'm like wellness and nutrition and fitness are cornerstone, I think, of my happiness in life. And so I wanted to create a brand that would take that sort of philosophy, but apply my ability to create a really great atmosphere around a restaurant. So I was going to take this sort of healthy ingredients, make a more dinner-focused menu with them, and give the people the atmosphere that they're looking for in a night experience. And that was

creatures of habit. So it was pretty much a restaurant that was awesome that just so happens to serve really healthy and delicious food. Because no one was taking a stab at the sort of nighttime components of the healthy or sort of wellness minded person. In the fact that you have that specific, like what makes your idea unique? How is your concept going to stand out? That's a key point in something that is talked about in one of the branding books I recommend, which is Reese's book, the 22 immutable laws of branding. And this is something that like take your meatball shop. I think that's a really, really clever branding move. And it's smart to say this is all we do and we're going to do it really well.

And we're going to build the whole brand around this concept. And so that makes a lot of sense to me. If you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, definitely check out my health and fitness books, including the number one best-selling weightlifting books for men and women in the world, Bigger Leaner Stronger and Thinner Leaner Stronger, as well as the leading flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. When you are putting together a concept, what are you looking? Are you you just going by gut feel by instinct of saying okay so there's some rational thought that goes into what you just laid out you're like

okay what do people want and i'm sure that you have your whole process of doing market research and you have your suspicions but then you go and confirm them with with data but how do you go from here are the kind of the cold facts. This is what people are, so what the market is saying that they want in terms of, like you said, they want fast food, they want counter service, they want it to be nutritious, they want it to be not too many calories probably is part of it, whether they realize, although I would guess many people who eat at Kava, for example, and some of these places are aware of calories to some degree. But how do you bring that alive? How do you breathe? Because that's really what when you are now going from, if I could put something with these characteristics together, then it would meet the market's demand. But of course, then how do you get there? How you the brand that you create around it, like you're talking about the experience creating a dining experience.

That's a huge part of it that in my experience, having spoken with a lot of people of varying degrees of business experience and success, like they don't always get how important it is to make people feel a certain way or to create a certain first impression and how actually in many ways much more important that is than delivering a good product or service. Now, it's not to say that you shouldn't deliver a good product or service, but as far as marketing and branding goes, the quality of the product and service matters a lot less than some of this, what some people would think of as, oh, that's like the window dressing. You know what I mean? So I think that there's a lot of brands that I can use as an example here and something that I've been saying. So there's a lot of things to touch on here and I'll start to try to chip away one by one. The first thing I do typically when I'm creating a restaurant brand is I write out a menu that feels good to me.

And I'm able to do that very quickly. The food component is obviously very important because what you're serving is going to drive pretty much everything. Books are very similar. You can have really slick marketing. You have a great title. You can have a great cover. But if your book's going to do well, it needs to be a book that people not only read, but

read and like enough to tell other people about. That's the key. Yep. And so I write out a menu. That's typically the first step for me is writing out the menu. And it does not have to be anywhere close to the finished product, but it gives me, it's essentially a framework, right? It's like a storyboard. So I start out with a framework of a menu and I feel like I've got, like, I've got a foundation. This is what I'm going to, this is what the menu is going to look and feel like in terms of the cuisine, the ingredients. With Creatures of Habit,

I knew that one of the things that is tough, I use my own personal, I do use my personal feelings a lot here and things that I like in my creative process. For me, I know that when I go out to most restaurants, the things that make food taste good or make food taste extraordinarily good tend to be butter, olive oil, and fat of some sort. Fat is what allows your palate to appreciate flavor. Salt brings flavor out in ingredients and fat is the vehicle for your taste buds. And so the more fat typically, the better the food tastes.

That's just like actual science. Yep. That's yeah, that's actual science. That's actual science. Sugar, sugar, salt, and fat. So however, I do pretty much all of my own cooking. Specifically now I do, I cook every meal. I know that I don't need to use an exorbitant amount of butter and oil to make great ingredients

taste good. I just don't. I am a very fit dude. And I'm not saying that as a pat on the back. I work really fucking hard at it, but I do not ever sacrifice flavor ever. I could be eating the most regimented meal plan. Like you are right now. I mean, exactly like I am right now. And I actually really look forward, but it's not just any chicken. It's sous vide chicken, which anybody who hasn't tried sous vide chicken, try it and your chicken is going to level up greatly.

You're never going to look at a chicken breast the same again. Yeah. By the way, you know, the beauty of sous vide, specifically if you're meal prepping is I cook eight chicken breasts at a time in a big stock pot with my sous vide machine. And I don't use any oil, any butter at all. I just use like this paleo, this paleo seasoning, I forgot what it's called. But it's like these really awesome seasoning packets that I get from this company paleo something paleo powder. I season the chicken breast with it. I put it in a vacuum sealed pack.

I put it in this water bath with the sous vide machine and it's the best chicken breast you'll ever have, period, done, done. And you can do it many, many ways, but there's zero fat and it's delicious. And so I just never sacrifice flavor ever. I refuse to eat bland food. I'm a chef, I'm a trained chef. I refuse to eat bland food. I'm a chef by, you know, I, I'm a

trained chef. I, you know, I just, I just don't. So, you know, you can just draw a line through, like, if you're trying to change your eating habits and you're worried about not being able to enjoy food, you're just fucking wrong. Pardon my French. I enjoy everything I eat. You know, I'm not eating donuts every day that, you know, however, but I do enjoy all the food I eat everything I eat. I'm not eating donuts every day, however, but I do enjoy all the food I eat. And I eat a lot of meat. And for people, let's say, I would say, and I think you would agree here, a lot of that comes down to how you're preparing the food, like you were just mentioning with how you can cook chicken with sous vide.

And it makes a huge difference. I agree. And then simple recipes. It doesn't take much to make bland food delicious. And you don't have to be a huge difference. I agree. And then simple recipes. It doesn't take much to make bland food delicious and you don't have to be a trained chef. You just need to have the right recipe and maybe you need to practice it a little bit, but that's been my experience. I mean, I have a cookbook that I had fun working on and working through all the recipes. I don't consider myself a very skilled cook. I can follow recipes and I know the basics and I may, I can make food that

I think is really good and that my wife likes and my kids eat. So it's worth something. Yeah. And, and by the way, like we just talked about sous vide chicken, but if you really want to go like as simple as humanly possible, I mean, not everybody likes sweet potatoes, but most people do because they're sweet and they're substantial. And it's my number one go-to carbohydrate, period.

It is the carbohydrate that I eat every day along with gluten-free oats in the morning. But if you want to try something for the people that are listening to this and you'll be blown away, preheat your oven to 425 degrees. Take a sweet potato or five because I do five at a time. I put them on a baking tray. I do not put anything on them. Nothing. Zero. No oil, no fat, no salt, no nothing. I take the sweet potato. I put it on underwater and wash it. I put it on a

baking sheet. I put it in my oven. I cook it until I start seeing the caramelized sugars seeping out of the tips of the potato. I pull it out. I let it cool for 20 minutes and then I eat them. And they're unbelievable. It is like candy, like a dessert that you want to have. That is the simplest form of cooking I can possibly tell anybody to do for food that is going to be delicious. I put it in front of my sons. I mash it up. I put it in front of my sons and they're thinking they're eating like sweet potato pie. I like to put a little bit of cinnamon. Cinnamon's delicious on sweet potatoes for sure. I do use cinnamon in a lot of my food in the way I eat these days. So anyway, I framework it with

a menu. And then honestly, this is typically how I do it. I'm not a big runner anymore. I was a marathon runner for a long time, but these days I just, I tend to not do a lot of running. However, if I need to really work through my creative process, I do take a run. And I intentionally go out on runs when I need to, you know, create, and I develop a lot of my creativity on runs, and I'll have my cell phone on me. And if I, you know, if I'm sort of like running and not, I don't listen to music. I just think about what I'm working on. And then I will stop in the run when an idea comes up and I'll note it in my notepad and my cell phone. And typically if I do that for a week and I run every other day, I'll have a lot of stuff

to chew on. And then I sit down and start putting it on paper. And then from there, is it kind of an editorial process of, and that's how I've experienced it as a writer, where I'll put a lot of stuff down in a first draft and some stuff I know is not that great, but I'll get back to it. Some stuff I think is great. And then I'll go and return to it maybe three days or four or five days later. And some of the stuff that I liked originally, I suddenly do not like at all anymore. And then it's, you know, you get rid of the obvious rejects and going through that process several times has helped me just in really refining ideas and finding things

that stick with me as good that when I returned to them a week later, I'm like, yep, that's still good. That's still a good concept. It's still expressed well. Is it similar? So I'll try to organize my thoughts that I've compiled over these, this like week or two week long sort of intentional running brainstorms. And then what I do is I like to get visual. So I'll go onto Pinterest and I'll start creating a mood board of all the things that I envision being an element to this brand, whether it's things in nature, whether it's a landscape, whether it's a car, whether it's a piece of an article of clothing, whether it's a photo of an interior

of a restaurant that I like. The beauty of Pinterest, which I really do love that app, is that you find something that you like and you click on it and then underneath it will be thousands of images of, you know, there's an algorithm that just sort of like gives you inspiration. And so there'll be thousands of images that are similar to the image that you've picked up. And so then I start compiling that way. And I spend time just sort of putting together this mood board that starts to allow me to see what's in my head in a tangible form. And sometime in between those times, I will start thinking of names and naming

a business is not easy to do, but for whatever reason, they've just come to me. And obviously the meatball shop was very easy, right? Like I opened up a restaurant that served meatballs. And so the meatball shop was like, you know, an easy one. But there's something to be said for that because it might've felt easy to you and it might've seemed obvious to you, but there were many, many ways to screw that up. There were many, many names that you could have chosen that would not have worked as well. And maybe the restaurant still would have succeeded, but a good name, and this is not

just applicable to restaurants, it's to any business, to any brand, the name is vital. If you get the name right, you have given yourself of the legalism, the dueling expertise that occurs in layman's terms and helping people understand what the spirit of this amendment was and why it was implemented and how it might apply to modernity. And somebody had given him advice on the title of the book. They said, oh, well, I think that it shouldn't have Second Amendment in the title at all because it might turn people off, right? You know, like people, you know, this is a controversial issue. And if you get them in with a different title, then you're going to get a lot more people to read the book who wouldn't read it otherwise. People who are either they hate the Second Amendment or they feel like it's just too hot to handle,

so to speak. And that's awful advice, terrible advice. Better advice would be, oh, you should call it the Second Amendment book. I'm not saying that's the title, but that would actually be better advice. It'd be better advice. Let's just start with SEO. So when people go and search on Amazon for second amendment or second amendment book, your book comes up, otherwise it will not. And then there's also the point of like, what is a title supposed to do? One thing it's supposed to do is make a promise of benefit, or at least tell you what the book is about. Right. And I think that you can get creative with books. If you have a title that maybe is kind of cutesy and it's a play on words or it's an idiom that's relevant and then your subtitle explicitly calls out what the book is about.

So just to jump in on the title point, I think when I saw that, that's what I immediately thought of. I was like, that's smart, where you took something that is completely on the nose. something that is completely on the nose. And in a way, if that's executed well, it can add personality to it as opposed to just being boring and bland. Whereas if you try to get too cutesy and too creative with the name, I think you can go too far and it then doesn't communicate anything. Yeah. And another thing about names that everybody should take into consideration, because it's very important from my experience, and it was a lesson learned through the meatball shop. You want a name that is trademarkable.

You know, a mark is very valuable. And if you're an inventor and you don't have, oh, what's the word I'm looking for? You don't have a patent on your product, it's useless. Similarly, if you have a business like a restaurant that anybody can just go and open up the exact same restaurant using the exact same name and there's no recourse you can take, it really devalues the business. It doesn't matter how great it is. So finding a name that is trademarkable is very important. And sometimes

what I do when I, so like for Seymour's, for instance, Seymour's is a sustainable seafood concept. I love the name Seymour because it reminds me of like a little old Jewish guy, you know, like I wanted to brand itself is a very fresh, clean Scandinavian sort of like ocean side, bright white feeling brand when you walk in the door. However, I wanted a name that was a bit more endearing. That was just a bit more welcoming. That was cozier. And you also spelled it S-E-A, right? Right. So what I did was I said, I love the name Seymour that for whatever reason, the name Seymour came to me. And I said, wait a second, I can make this, I can not only,

you know, get a trademark on the name Seymour if I just changed the spelling, because that's a trick that I use a lot where like, I'll change the name of, I'll change the letter and the spelling of the word to get the trademark. And so for Seymour, I said, S-E-A-M-O-R-E, eat from the Seymour, Seymours, Seymours. And that's how the name came about. And I got the trademark on S-E-A-M-O-R-E-S. And not only allowed me to get the trademark on it because it's not the way you spell the name, but it also defined what I was doing, which was see more, eat from the sea more. And so with Creatures of Habit, I was not able to get the Creatures of Habit with the traditional C-R-E-A-T-U-R-E-S.

So I changed the C to a K and I made it Creatures of Habit that way. Not only does the K get me the trademark, but keto was something that we were going to, like on the menu at Creatures of Habit, I am calling out the different dietary restrictions. So everything on the menu is going to either have a K, P, or a PB, keto, paleo, or plant-based next to it. And so keto was a component of the brand. I personally don't believe in keto as a lifestyle. However, I do know that it is very effective for sort of short-term weight loss. I personally have experienced it a

number of times in terms of like, you know, I'll experiment and I'll dip into keto for six to eight weeks and I get shredded. I not only get shredded, but I also cognitively love what it does for me. It's not a fun process. I do not believe it's long-term. And I know that you're like, the people that probably listen to this podcast are very interested in science and facts. I do know the science behind ketosis and it works.

I just don't think it's a long-term solution for anyone. That's my opinion. I think that there are certain people out there that will say, that will argue that opinion that you can just live ketogenic for, you know, ever. I just don't think it's like that awesome. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I've heard from many people over the years, especially as keto has become the,

really, it's the diet du jour right now. And, but it's the diet du jour right now. But it's been around for a bit. I wrote a long article on keto a couple of years ago because at that time it was already uptrending. And having spoken with a lot of people, yeah, most people do not enjoy the experience most of the time. It's actually, you know what?

It's the first week sucks. And then for me, the first week sucks, but weeks two through six, I really enjoy because I've gotten through my carbohydrate craving or obsession, I should call it. You know, it's an obsession until you sort of give into it and then the craving sets in once you give in. But if you're able to fight the obsession, then you can get through it and your body is not actually going to physically crave what that sugar is doing for you. But I'm not a big fan of just do it like, you know, taking big heaping tablespoons of almond butter every time I'm hungry. You have to also watch your saturated fat intake. If you also care about your heart health, many people do that wrong. They're a version of a keto diet, which

ironically is really not the, because originally the keto diet, it has its roots in medicine. It was developed for people who suffered from, yeah, exactly. I had seizures and the original keto diet, it was low protein, low carb, very high fat. So now it's kind of this high protein, low carb, high fat, and that's okay. You can still stay in ketosis that way. But again, having spoken with many people, depending on who taught them about keto, oftentimes they are eating a lot of saturated fat and it can come from meat, it can come from coconut oil, it can come from butter. And there's no question that as of right now, the weight of the evidence, and this is very clear, this scale is weighted heavily to one side. And that is that if you have too much saturated

fat, you are probably going to increase the risk of heart disease. Some people's bodies, this is probably mostly genetic, deal very well with it. And you're not going to see issues with cholesterol, for example, and LDL, but most people will. And especially with something like, again, butter in particular, coconut oil in particular, which many people think, oh, it comes from coconuts. It must be healthy. Well, it's not that it's unhealthy, but when you are having excessive amounts every day, and now you're having like 80 grams of saturated fat a day, that's not a good idea. And especially not for the longterm. So that's one of my critiques of keto. Another critique would be if you are doing it correctly, your carbs are very low, so low that you can forget about fruit. That's not going to be in your diet. You can forget obviously about whole grains, legumes, and these aren't very nutritious foods, but it's difficult even

to eat enough vegetables. Some vegetables, they contain too many calories, too many carbs. So if you also, if there is some carbohydrate that's residual in some of the foods that you're eating, like almond butter, for example, that means you have even fewer carbs to a lot to vegetables every day. So when you have people that are following kind of like a carnivore diet, basically eating a lot of meat and saturated fat, very high, very little in the way of plant foods that aren't just fats. So very few servings of vegetables per day, no fruit, no whole grains, no legumes. Again, looking at the body of evidence on what is a healthy human diet, what is at least optimized human diet, it's not that. Yeah. I mean, look, and the truth is,

is that like whenever I do make a decision to dive into the ketogenic diet, I have to be very careful because my body is super sensitive. And so I cannot have a lot of animal protein when I'm in, it'll take me out of ketosis when I eat too much protein. So my diet predominantly when I'm in ketosis is eggs, egg whites, not too many, because again, like I can pop out if I have too much protein. So I have to be very mindful of it. A lot of people don't know the insulin response to a dose of protein is like the insulin response to a dose of beef protein is more or less the same as a serving of rice, for example. And so, you know, even avocado, avocado has got a lot of carbohydrates. So avocado popped me out.

I was wondering why I was not like in the beginning, I was like, man, why am I only showing like 0.5 millimolar when I have not had a single in my mind at that time, a carbohydrate outside of some broccoli. And it was the avocado. Avocado was pushing me out. And so, you know, it's a very, very difficult. And so that just begs the question as to why, and that's, this is the discussion I have with people. When I explain there's no compelling reason to go through all of that. If we really just look at the science of it. And if however you enjoy it or you find it's very effective for you, even if it just comes down to compliance, even if you find that it helps you

better control your calories and you like the whoosh effect that you get where, you know, you shed water quickly and you're going to be retaining less water, which means you might look a little bit smaller, but you also are going to look a little bit leaner. Those are perfectly valid reasons to do it. You just have to know that that's really what you're getting out of it. You're not supercharging your body's fat burning machinery. It's just not true. So that's kind of the summary of keto. And again, I have an article over at legionathletics.com if anybody wants to go check it out. I did write it a couple of years ago, but not much has changed. In fact, the conclusions of that article are even more true now than they

were then in that the research that has come out on low carb, high fat keto style dieting, since I wrote that article further vindicates what I talk about in that article. So if anybody wants to learn more about that, just, you can check the article out. I think I also did record a podcast on it at some point. So that's probably out there as well. I don't mean that as an attack at all in terms of what you use the keto diet for. And I understand that if you're like, hey, this works well for me for this reason, even if somebody doesn't exactly know why it works well, but they go, when I want to do this and I follow the keto diet, it goes well. And I understand that it's not something I'm going to be doing for long periods of time because it's not an optimal way to eat.

Just if we look at the nutritional side of it, or at least it's very hard to optimize, then I think that's perfectly valid. Similar to take cardio where some people, they tend to do best with just very low intensity, steady state cardio. And if they incorporate any hits or any significant amount of hit, it cuts too much into the recovery and they just don't feel well and they get more hungry. And this is particularly when they're cutting. That doesn't happen to me, but that's me. And for them, hit does not agree with their system. And so there definitely is individual does not agree with their system.

And so there definitely is individual variability in a lot of this. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you've just said. You know, I think I do believe that there's probably some level of genetic sort of ability to adapt to a specific diet for some people. I don't know if it's genetic or if it's just sort of. No, there definitely is. I've seen that and there is some research suggesting, particularly with carbohydrate intake,

it's just interesting that some people do better with carbs than others, regardless of fitness level and regardless of fitness routine. Some people are very sensitive to carbs in a good way. And like, I'm one of those people. I've done a couple of DNA tests, which a lot of the marketing of those types of services is just puffery. The science is not far enough along to know really what does that genetic marker mean in terms of how you should

eat or exercise. But there are some components that have stronger evidence. And this is one area where the research I think is far enough along for us to trust that, okay, if we are expressing these genes, we tend to do better with carbs than people who express these genes differently. And you don't have to get a DNA test though, to know that I've heard from many people over the years where it doesn't matter how lean they are. It doesn't matter how much they exercise on any given day. If they eat more than a certain amount of carbs total, and often it's in one sitting, they just don't feel they get some brain fog and their energy levels aren't as stable.

Sometimes they get a little bit gassy or they just get GI distress. They just don't do well with, again, it's often over a certain amount in an individual meal and or on a given day. And there's no reason then to try to force the square peg into the round hole. I would also, but one thing I would say to that, and I could, you know, obviously you're, you're closer to the science than I am, but one thing I will say is that I was afraid of carbs for a long time, just like everybody else. I just was. And once I really got into bodybuilding and was told like, Michael, you need,

if this is something that you want to do, and it's obvious that you want to do it, you're doing it. But if you want to see any progress, you are going to need glycogen stores. You're just going to need them period done. Like there's no question. It's science. Like if you want to grow, you need the energy to grow. And you just, that's just, there's no way around it. So when I got into bodybuilding, I essentially, you know, my grams of carbohydrate ratio to gram of protein ratio are the same, if not more carbohydrate to protein. And I eat a lot of protein. I eat like 1.35 times my body weight in protein every day. So when I'm maintaining, you know, I'll eat 220 grams of protein pretty much all the time until I'm like right before a show where

everything drops down, where I'm in a real deficit at like 1400 calories, 1350 1400 calories a day for a week or two. But for the most part, my protein always stays at around 220 grams. And my carbohydrates, depending on whether I'm in a bulk, a maintain or a cut, will fluctuate anywhere from 275 in a bulk to 220. And now I'm in a cut. So I'm at 180. And I'm at 220 grams of protein, 180 grams of carbohydrate, and 45 grams of fat. I feel fucking awesome. And I am, you know, probably around five to 6% body fat right now. And I could live like this forever if I wanted to. I'm not going to gain much muscle. And, you know, quite frankly, at this point in my life, I don't know without drugs, which I don't do. I don't know how much more muscle I will be able to gain unless I go into an absolute hardcore surplus, which I just don't enjoy. So, you know, I don't

enjoy reaching the 15 to 17% body fat. It just does not make me feel good. I'm the same way. And I know there's nothing left really for me to gain anyway. So why bother? Why not just stay lean and have enough fat on my bones to have healthy hormones and good energy levels and good workouts, but i still have abs you know there's no yeah and the i guess the other side of that coin though is people who they really enjoy the experience of the calorie surplus especially in the gym and i do understand that your workouts are definitely better and you're stronger and it's nice to finish a workout where you feel like you could just do it all over again. I do,

I do like that, but I guess I like abs more. Yeah, no, I like abs more too. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I'm being, you know, I'm in real time right now. So I was squatting when I was in a surplus before my, before my, um, cut, I was squatting 365 for four sets of six. And now I'm not doing that. I'm just not, I'm not, I'm probably, you know, when I walk into my, when I walk into my leg day, I'm squatting probably 315 with not ease, but it's going up and down and I'm not struggling too hard. And so I'll add five pounds to 10 pounds per set, reaching like 325 to 330. And I'm really struggling. I'm actually at my 325 or 330. I'm doing four reps, and then I'm dropping, you know, I'm putting I'm racking the bar, and then I'm finishing up. And so there's no doubt that that even the small amount of carbohydrate, you know, whatever it is, 100

grams, or 75 grams of carbohydrates that I'm missing every day, it just makes a difference. There's no doubt about it, you know, but I also don't know what it's like to not have abs. I just, I don't, I always have abs period. And so I wonder it'd be kind of an interesting experiment. And after October 10th, my bodybuilding competition, if I just say, fuck it and try to do an eight month surplus and see if I feel a lot stronger. Oh, you will. I don't know. I mean, if you've never done it before, you should, because you know, I mean, you know, it's not hard to lose fat.

You just make your meal plan. You eat your meals and you do your workouts and your body takes care of the rest. And you've done it so many times and you know what it takes to stay lean. You might be surprised at what it does to your workouts. If you just do it right, like do a 10% surplus. We're very similar in that we kind of eat the same stuff every meal, every day we eat stuff we like, but we are creatures of habit. So just take that discipline, but apply it to lean bulking. And so you might just eat a bit more sweet potato every day, for example, or however you want to do it, but maintain that 10%

surplus within, I'll say within two weeks, you're going to notice it. You're going to be like, wow, this is a lot easier than it normally is. And I would say probably within two months is when you're going to really, maybe a month, I'll say within your first month or two, you're going to really find your stride. And given how developed your physique is, you may not gain any appreciable amount of muscle during that period, maybe a little bit. You know, it's not going to be much. If you are going to be anything, it's not going to be much. So that's not really the point.

You might though find that you might set some PRs, for example, you might, that might be fun. you might set some PRs, for example, you might, that might be fun. And then it also will be kind of fun again, to, to have so much energy and to feel so powerful in your workouts that you finish and you 100% feel you could just do it all over again and probably not even be gassed, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I will. My wife would love that if I did that. Why, why is that? My wife would love that if I did that. Why is that?

Just because I'm so strict about my, I'm just, even though I don't sacrifice flavor and we tend to eat a lot of the same, like whenever I cook dinner, she's very happy with what I'm making. You know, it's not the easy, I don't love, like, I just, I don't, I don't love going out for dinner. I love going out for dinner, but I don't love, I just, it's just not something that I love to do because I just know. That's interesting. As a successful restaurateur, you'd think it would be a later on. Yeah. I mean, I give myself at minimum one awesome blowout meal a week, no matter what,

even in my prep, I do it where I, you know, we, we go, I'm pretty strict. I'm pretty strict about it. Cause I really like to control what I put into my body and I'm a restaurateur. So I just know, you know, there's one way to make things taste really good. And all you got to do literally is take a tablespoon of butter and drop it on anything, an extra pinch of salt. And that's it. You know what I mean? Yeah. I talk about that. I call it hidden calories, right? Cause I mean, you just don't know. You could be ordering the vegetable medley, but you don't know that there's an extra 300 calories of butter in that. Or, you know, you're, you don't want the cream sauce, so you get the pesto,

but you just don't realize that like, it's literally a combination of parsley, spinach, that it's literally a combination of parsley, spinach, basil, and walnuts, an enormous amount of olive oil. And any serving of pesto sauce on a dish is going to be probably two tablespoons. And there you have 300 to 400 calories, boom, right there. Desserts as well. A lot of people don't realize actually how calorie dense. I think the rule of thumb is about 50 ish calories per spoon. I might be a little bit high there, but maybe that's the right assumption. Even if the range is more like 30 to 50, probably not more than 70, but I mean, that's per bite. So, you know, you take all just, I'll just take a few bites and that could be another couple hundred

calories. And by the way, I think, you know, I'm disciplined enough. And I also think that that, I hate to say it, but I also think that that too is like a, something I was born with, you know, I was born with the ability to make a decision and commit. And I do think that that is a learnable trait, for sure. But I think it's very, very hard for a lot of people that are not the committing type. You know, like I've just been known, you know, we didn't get too deep into my story, but I partied really, really hard with drugs and alcohol for from like 12, 13 to 23. And at 23, I had to make a decision because I was going to die or just be a complete waste of space to stop drinking and doing drugs. And I made a decision to do it. And I haven't had a drug or a drink in 16 years, not a single sip, not a single substance, mind mood altering substance in my body in 16 years, this past August 2nd. Excluding caffeine. Excluding caffeine. That's true. Okay. this past August 2nd. Excluding caffeine. Excluding caffeine. That's true. Okay.

That would be the knee plus ultra of that to quit everything plus caffeine. Yeah. Caffeine. I mean that you're actually an Android or a reptilian or something. I am a caffeine addict. I will say that. But, but yeah, so, you know, going back to the process of creating the brand, I think that is my process. I literally do a menu. I go on these runs to help me be in a space where I can think clearly and focus. And I do that best running. I don't know why, but I do. And then I write it down. And then I create a mood board so I can begin to take the sort of vision in between my ears

and actually make it tangible for other people to see and for myself to see. And one question I wanted to ask you is, are you scratching your own itch? Are you basically creating restaurants that you would like to eat in? I think it's a combination of both. I alluded to that earlier. I definitely use my personal preference in motivation, because anything that I'm not personally excited about, I can't fake it. So I tend to, but I will say this, like, I also said earlier, you know, I'm a listener, a really good one. And I bartended for years.

And I think what made me a really good bartender was the fact that I actually listened to what people were saying. I'm not going to say that I was one of those bartenders that was like a therapist and people would come to the bar and spew there. But when I say I listened to what people were saying, I know what people want. I was able to figure out what people wanted. And when you came to sit at the bar with me, I never put a menu in front of you ever. I never let you look at a menu. I would say, just let me give you the experience that you want that you didn't even, it's called reading your guest, right? So in the restaurant industry, obviously, if there's somebody that walks in the room, and I know that this person is impenetrable, because I'm able to read that person, I totally don't take the reins. And I let them choose their own adventure, of course.

But in most cases, I have confidence enough in my ability to connect with someone to make them trust me very quickly that I would either verbalize the menu to them because I also believe in sales. It's very, very, very, very important to know your product in and out. And that's another thing that anybody listening, you cannot wing facts, right? If you're a car salesman and somebody asks you, is that a V6 or a V8? And you're like, let me go ask my supervisor. They're not going to want to buy a car from you. It's just that simple. If somebody asked me what ingredients are in the rigatoni ragu, and I'm like, let me go ask my manager, they're going to be like, this person is useless. So in sales and anything, understanding what you're selling to the best of your ability, because some people are able to

retain information better than others, but actually put in the work so that you can have some grounds to stand on is so important if you want to be successful in sales. That applies to copywriting as well, which is selling just in a different form. That's an old copywriting tip. I mean, I first came across it, shit, it might've been in scientific advertising, Claude Hopkins written in early 1900ss but that's a must do as a copywriter is exactly what you're talking about is learn everything you can about what it is that you're selling including all the boring stuff all the dry stuff not just the sizzle that other people have created to sell it but no get to the first principles here get to the primary documents of what this thing is how it works all the technical specs if it if it has technical specs how it functions and that can be very effective grist for the marketing mill yeah i mean look i

think you know if you really look at it as like survival you know like if you're on a deserted island and there's two people there and one person is like collecting. You know, like if you're on a deserted island and there's two people there and one person is like collecting wood, building a hut, fucking climbing up trees and, and, and ripping out bark and sucking on the inside of the bark, because that person knows that that specific tree bark is nutritious. Like you're going to get close to that person. If the other person's sort of like drinking the salt water, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, you know, it's almost basics, but some people feel like they can just wing it. And those people end up finding out that like, you just need to know the product. If you want to be good at it, if you want to excel, you need to know what you're selling. And so I believe in

that. And then that confidence is so far stretching because people want to be taken care of in most every aspect of life. People, I think motivation for 99% of people on the planet is avoidance of being uncomfortable, right? Like you just don't want to be uncomfortable. And so if you are able to offer a level of comfort that brings that person closer to comfort, they're going to flock to you. And so I always knew the product inside and out. However, I will just say that the culmination of what I love and listening to what other people want, it brings me to most of the businesses, most of the business solutions I've created over time. Yeah, that makes sense. I think we could go all day if we allow the conversation or just pinball it to all the different things that we find interesting. But I want to wrap up with one

other question regarding cooking hacks. That's just been sitting in my mind. I'm curious if you have any other just quick and easy tips to share with people for making simple food tastier without adding a bunch of calories. Yeah. So one thing that I've implemented into my kitchen is spray oils as opposed to just regular olive oil or coconut oil or avocado oil. Or, you know, I just don't use any vegetable oils ever. So I would just eliminate vegetable oils from your pantry. That's my personal preference. But I like spray oils. You can control them a lot more. You use far less when you spray oil onto an ingredient as opposed to just pouring, you know, way too much oil out. That just makes me think of something you mentioned earlier, which is that,

yes, fat brings out flavor, but you don't need as much as you might think. And there's definitely a point of diminishing returns where a little bit of fat is going to dramatically increase the flavor, but a lot more is not necessarily going to increase it a lot more, you know? And another thing that I think I would just say, cooking hack, I don't know if it's a hack as much as it is just simplifying things and getting people to feel a little bit more comfortable, but there's not a single vegetable in the world

that you cannot just simply put on a roasting tray, spray with a little bit of oil, a little bit of salt, stick in your oven at somewhere between 375 and 425 and pull out about 20 minutes later and have it be delicious. What are some of your favorites? Cauliflower, broccoli, eggplant, sweet potatoes, beets, leeks. You take leeks and you cut leeks in half and you clean them. And then you can either keep them halved on the rack or you can quarter them and just put them sort of like flesh side up, a little bit of oil, a little bit of salt, and you let them roast in the oven. They're unbelievable, like totally unbelievable. You can do it with whole onions,

unbelievable, like totally unbelievable. You can do it with whole onions, same exact thing. And the beauty of it is heat creates a caramelization process, which actually brings the sugar in these ingredients to the surface. And when they're in their raw form, you're not activating that caramelization process. So you're not actually able to really taste the sugar that is in the ingredients. If you bring heat to it, add a little salt to bring out the real, to really enhance the flavor and then add a little bit of fat, allow your taste buds to appreciate it more. You're taking something that would be like, if you took a piece of cauliflower rod and chewed on it, it's not very tasty. However, roasted cauliflower is delicious, like absolutely delicious. An eggplant, I mean,

you take a whole eggplant, you wrap it in some aluminum foil, you put a little bit of olive oil on it, but you don't need a lot at all. And you put it in the oven for 30 to 40 minutes, depending on the size of the eggplant at 400 degrees. You pull it out, you unwrap it, you slice off the top of the eggplant and the bottom of the eggplant. You slice down the center of the eggplant the long way, and then you open it up and butterfly it, put a little salt on the inside. It is one of the best things you'll have. It's unbelievable. It's just delicious.

Squash as well. Oh yeah. Squash. I mean, like I said, any vegetable that you want to do, tomatoes, you cut a tomato in half. Raw tomato is tasty with a little bit of salt, but a roasted tomato with a little bit of salt is just a different experience. It's just a different experience. And so anybody who's like, I don't know how to cook vegetables. Here's what I'm here to tell you. The magic number is probably 400 degrees. Any vegetable, you take a head of cauliflower and you break it up into florets about, you know, an inch or, you know, you can make them bigger if you want. And you spread them out evenly on a roasting tray. You do the same thing with broccoli. You do the same thing with Romanesco. You do the same thing with asparagus. You do the same thing with, you know, you just,

you take the vegetable, you put a little bit of oil and a little bit of salt on it and you stick it in the oven for 20 to 30 minutes depending on the vegetable sometimes like with an eggplant with a big eggplant it'll be like 40 minutes and you pull it out and you've added very little calories to the actual ingredient it just tastes a hell of a lot better and you do it in bulk and then you put it in your fridge in a Tupperware, and you've got vegetables that you've just easily cooked. It took no time for three to four days, and it's delicious, and it's nutritious, and it tastes really good. I think that that in itself is a game changer for anybody that is looking to sort of get more into eating vegetables.

And by the way, if you do it with fruit, I mean, you've got dessert. I was going to ask about dessert. Yeah, you do with fruit. But what I will share with you guys is my final meal of the day every day, because I do have a sweet tooth and I do love myself some dessert, but I've come up with a really great hack for a last meal of the day. That is, I'll tell you exactly the macros on it. So you can just see the way I do it. So my meal four is 251 calories, 22 and a half grams of carbs, six grams of fat and 30 grams of protein.

I take 16 ounces of ice and I've gotten the ice down to a science because I want it to be the consistency of ice cream. So I take 16 ounces of ice, half a cup of frozen blueberries, a scoop or a scoop and a half of your favorite protein. I would try Thrive because the shit's the bomb and it tastes really good. And I use the Thrive vanilla flavor. I probably get some shit for this, but there is an ice cream. It's a plant-based ice cream called Arctic Zero. I'm sure it's not. Yeah, I've seen that.

I'm sure it's not very good for you, but it actually doesn't taste bad and it's got like no calories. So I take a half a cup of that. So I've got my scoop of protein powder or scoop and a half, depending on where my protein is for the day. I've got my half a cup of Arctic Zero chocolate peanut butter ice cream. I've got a half a cup of frozen blueberries. I do a cup of coconut milk and 16 ounces of ice and about a teaspoon of cinnamon. And I put it in my blender and I blend it. And it is the perfect dessert for me. It's sweet. It's got volume. So it's like a lot. It's filling. And it gets me my protein. And I tend to train fasted. And so when I'm I train fasted in the morning. And so when I'm not in prep, I will add a half a banana to it just to give me some more carbohydrates so that I have

something to work with in the morning. But because I'm in prep, I don't have those extra carbohydrates, but like 250 calories, it's all pretty much good for you outside of potentially some ingredients in the Arctic zero that are questionable. I haven't looked at the ingredients. I'll have to check it out. I've just seen it in the grocery store, but I gave up on low calorie ice creams a long time ago. Not because I think they're unhealthy, but it just, I don't get enough enjoyment out of it. I'd rather just get the real thing and eat less of it, honestly.

Yeah, I mean, my problem is the eating less of it. Yeah, no, I understand. That's why I just don't eat ice cream that often. Like if I'm gonna eat ice cream, it's likely, I guess a half a pint is where I could be like, all right, that was, if it's less than a half a pint, it's not worth it. No, it's not. Like a scoop or two, I just can't even. Yeah, it's likely, I guess a half a pint is where I could be like, all right, that was, if it's less than a half a pint. No, it's not like a scoop or two. I just can't even. Yeah. It's not even, although like I can take a piece of chocolate and not feel the desire to eat more and actually find some satisfaction in just taking a piece, maybe two pieces of chocolate, not the case with ice

half a pint is you got to go at least, but I'm with you. You really got to go all the way, which just means that I don't eat ice cream that often. I've also fallen in love. Like if I'm craving something, if I'm craving some sugar throughout the day, for whatever reason, I always have a, there's a chocolate company called Hugh kitchen. My wife loves their cashews and they are good. I have to say, I always have a bar of their salty dark chocolate in my fridge and I'll just take a piece of it. Totally satisfies me in the moment and I don't need more. Exactly. Same. That's funny. We'll snack on the, have you tried their chocolate covered cashews? Oh yeah. But those are dangerous for me though. I know they're so good. Cause I

could, I could plow through a pack, like a half a pack in a sec. That's a great dessert tip. I like the taking the, the ice cream by itself, I'm assuming is, is not that great. Cause most of the low calorie ones are not. It's like, it's, it's very, one last thing I'll say to anybody listening. And I know that you get a shit ton of listeners here. If you're looking to, and this is just something that I, it's just mere facts. If you are looking to change the way you eat, because you're eating in an unhealthy manner more regularly than not. The best tip I can give anybody is simply don't have the shit in your house. I've talked about that.

That is the ultimate diet hack right there. That is it. If it is not there. Just don't make yourself look at it. Just start there. It's not there. You're not going to eat it. And like, once you get into the habit of like not taking that turn in the supermarket, the turn that I mean is the turn down the aisle of the shit that you really, really want. You just walk past the aisle, maybe the ice cream, maybe the frozen dessert. The chips aisle, the cookie aisle, the ice cream aisle. If you just make it a point to just say,

you know what, I'm not going to walk down that aisle, you will be surprised how quickly you'll be able to train yourself into not eating crap if it's not available at all times. The amount of people that have put on weight in this lockdown are insane. And it's because they're either ordering food online or just spending a lot more time in the supermarket than they have in the past. And those supermarkets are designed strategically. Yeah, scientifically. There's a lot of work that goes into exactly what you're describing. It's not like they're, you know, like they just place things arbitrarily. Like everything is purposely placed.

You know, there are companies that specialize in trying to get people to eat more crap. Food scientists. I mean, I've spoken about that. I actually had, we were talking about sugar, salt, fat, like we were earlier in the interview. That's the name of a book. Is it salt, sugar, fat? I don't remember, but- Sugar, salt, fat. Yeah, yeah. But written by a journalist, I believe is journalist by trade. I had him on the podcast just to talk about the process of researching that book and kind of just go over a lot of the key takeaways of the book. And one of the things that struck me

when I read that book and stuck with me is the amount of money. I mean, it's not surprising when you think about it, but it just was a little bit surprising when I read just how much money and how much of a science it really is. Like he gives some good examples in there about the amount of work that went into crafting the Cheeto, for example, to make it perfect. The guy who did it was so proud of it. I believe I remember in that correct thing was the Cheeto was like seven or eight points that he was, that there were engineered about this food ranging, not just from the taste, but to the crunch, to how it melts in your mouth. And there were several other things. And again, that was crafted scientifically. And what do we know? We just pick up the Cheeto,

we eat it and we just want to eat more. We don't know why, but there might've been, depending on the food, there might've been hundreds of millions of dollars that has been spent over the course of decades getting to make their stuff even more delicious. And so the science of, and it's art as well, but it has very much become a science of making stuff as palatable as possible is very advanced. It's interesting. It's not surprising again, when you look at how much money is in play, but it just goes to reinforce the point you're making of you're at the mercy of all of that. When you buy the Doritos and you think, Oh, I'll just have one or two. And then you end up eating the whole bag. It's not that it doesn't mean you're a weak person or you don't have what it takes to lose the weight or to maintain the body composition you want. It just means that the food science industry

is very good at what they do. It's so crazy. I mean, there's so many documentaries that you can watch on like Netflix that walk you through the process, which is just totally ridiculous and scary, but real. Totally. Well, hey, this was a great interview, Michael. I appreciate you taking the time. And why don't we wrap up with definitely telling people again about your podcast in case they didn't catch that early on and where else people can find you wherever you want to send them. Is it Instagram or is it something else? If you have any business related things that you want people to know about any people in upstate New York, you want to check out your next restaurant, maybe? Well, my podcast is Born or Made, Michael Chernow. You can find it on pretty much anywhere you get

your podcast, iTunes, Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Spotify. I'm at Michael Chernow pretty much everywhere, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. You could definitely follow along my journey there. Or you could check out my website, michaelchurnow.com. And I have a bunch of stuff about my business life, my personal life, my fitness stuff, the meal planning that I've used in the past I have on the site. I can't thank you enough for having me on the podcast. It's so much fun. As per the usual, you and I could probably talk for days without taking a break. The longest episode ever. 10 hours. So yeah, I want to thank you for putting out the great content that you put out. It was what drew

me to want to reach out to you in the first place. And the fact that you've been able to inspire me and I'm sure millions of others, because I know that your book sells itself and your books sell themselves. So it's just inspiring, man. And that's really impressive. And I just wish you well. And I love the supplements. So I will continue to use all of them. Yeah, man, let's just stay in touch. Thank you. Absolutely. I'm flattered. And I love what you're doing.

I love the creativity. It's always fun to see that. Because that's, again, that's one of the more interesting aspects of business to me is the marketing and is that creative element to it. So it's very cool to speak with somebody like you who does it on a high level. So thanks again. And I look forward to the next one. We'll have to figure out what the next chat could be about. For sure. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did, and you don't mind doing me a favor, please do leave a quick review

on iTunes or wherever you're listening to me from in whichever app you're listening to me in, because that not only convinces people that they should check out the show, it also increases search visibility. And thus it helps more people find their way to me and learn how to get fitter, leaner, stronger, healthier, and happier as well. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then simply subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any new stuff. And if you didn't like something about the show, please do shoot me an email at mike at muscleforlife.com, just muscle, F-O-R, life.com, and share your thoughts on how I can do this better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback, even

if it is criticism. I'm open to it. And of course, you can email me if you have positive feedback as well, or if you have questions really relating to anything that you think I could help you with, definitely send me an email. That is the best way to get ahold of me, mikeatmuscleforlife.com. And that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode. And I hope to hear from you soon.