Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Research Review: Dr. Mike Zourdos on Training to Failure

Episode Date: January 24, 2018

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Mike Zourdos who’s an assistant professor of Exercise Science at Florida Atlantic University, published researcher, and competitive powerlifter, as well as the head Powerlifting coach at Florida State University. Mike also produces a fantastic monthly research review along with Dr. Eric Helms and Greg Nuckols, called MASS (www.strongerbyscience.com/mass), and in this interview, Mike is going to break down one of the studies analyzed in their review. The study he’s going to discuss is on training to failure, and in this discussion, Mike explains what training to failure is, how it relates to muscle growth, how necessary it is, how to best incorporate it into your training, and more. 6:36 - What is the study of training to failure and is it necessary13:02 - When should you incorporate training to failure?20:24 - How does training to failure effect strength and muscle growth? 27:10 - Does cardio with HIIT harm or improve muscle hypertrophy? 31:26 - Where can people follow you and find your work? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey, this is Mike from Muscle for Life and Legion Athletics. And as you probably know, I work pretty hard to understand and promote high quality diet, nutrition, and exercise science. And that's why I have spent and continue to spend quite a bit of my time researching and then writing articles, writing books, recording podcasts, recording videos, and so forth. And that's why I reference quite a bit of scientific literature in all of my work. Now, something I don't do though is produce a research review where individual studies are broken down and analyzed because one, my plate is already overflowing with projects as it is. And two, I honestly don't think that I could do it

better than the researchers who are out there creating research reviews and whose work and research reviews I myself read regularly, like James Krieger, Eric Helms, Greg Knuckles, Mike Zordos, Alan Aragon, and Brett Contreras. And so I had an idea, why not get those guys to come on my podcast to discuss various studies that they have analyzed in their reviews and share with us what they've learned and how we can use these key takeaways, how we can use the information in those studies to better optimize our diets, exercise routines, supplement regimens, and our overall lifestyle. Well, I reached out to them and they thought it was a great idea. And so a monthly series was born. Basically once a month, I'm going to have one of these guys on

the show, and they're going to break down a study that they have analyzed in their respective research reviews. And they're going to explain to us why these studies were conducted, how they were conducted, what the results were, what their interpretations of the results were, and how we can use the information to improve our diets, our training, our supplementation, or in some cases, just the overall quality of our lives. And in this episode, I speak with Dr. Mike Zordos, who is an assistant professor of exercise science at Florida Atlantic University and also a published researcher, competitive powerlifter, and the head powerlifting coach at Florida State University. Mike also produces a fantastic

monthly research review along with Dr. Eric Helms and Greg Knuckles, which is called Mass, M-A-S-S, and you can learn more about that at strongerbyscience.com slash mass. Fantastic review, one of my favorites. I highly recommend it. Now in this interview, Mike is going to break down one of the studies that they analyzed in their review. I think actually originally Greg did the analysis, but Mike is going to go over it. And the study that we are going to discuss is on the topic of training to failure. And in this discussion, Mike is going to explain exactly what training to failure is, how it relates to muscle growth, how necessary it is, how to best incorporate it

into your training, and more. This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, but I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my fitness book for men, bigger, leaner, stronger. Now this book has sold over 350,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of guys build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 3,100 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths that are keeping you from achieving the lean, muscular, strong, and healthy body that you truly desire, and if you want

to learn the simple science of building the ultimate male body, then you want to read Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, which you can find on all major online retailers like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play. Now, speaking of Audible, I should also mention that you can get the audiobook 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account, which I highly recommend that you do if you're not currently listening to audiobooks. I love them myself because they let me make the time that I spend doing stuff like commuting, prepping food, walking my dog, and so forth so much more valuable and productive. So if you want to take Audible up on this offer and get my book for free, then simply go to www.bitly.com slash free BLS. And that will take you to Audible. And then you just click the sign up today and save

button, create your account and voila, you get to listen to Bigger, Leaner, Stronger for free. you get to listen to Bigger, Leaner, Stronger for free. All righty. That is enough shameless plugging for now, at least. Let's get to the show. Hey, Mike, thanks for coming on the show. I'm excited to speak with you about the things we're going to speak about. But then also I need to get you back on to do an episode on DUP because you are the DUP man.

I don't know if I'm the man on that, but I do appreciate it. And of course, man, I'm happy to do it. And I appreciate the time today. Absolutely. So what we're going to be talking about here, this is the research review series that I am doing and getting smart people like yourself. And I had Eric on a few times. I'll probably ask if Greg wants to come on next time.

Just make my rounds through all the, all the super smart people doing research reviews and taking, um, a single study in one of the reviews that you guys have published and breaking it down. And, um, for this discussion, I wanted to talk about a study you discussed in the second issue of your review mass, which was about training to failure. And this is something that I've written a little bit about and I get asked about fairly frequently. Um, and it's a good question where people wonder, is it necessary to go to absolute muscle failure? And just to define that for people listening, that's the point where you have to abort the set. You can't keep the weights moving anymore. And so is that necessary? Is it good? If it is necessary and good, how often should you do it? What types of exercises and so on? I'm going to pass the ball to you. Sounds good, man. So I think there's a lot

of good questions and obviously training to failure, as you alluded to, is a really hot topic. So let me answer the question first and then we'll describe this study and then elaborate. So the question is, is training to failure necessary? And kind of what does that really mean? Well, as you said, it really means that you just absolutely can't do another rep. You either fail on a rep or you get to the point where you're so exhausted on after a repetition, you know, the next one just isn't going to happen. So is it necessary? I'll say that I believe based upon the totality of evidence, training to failure is not necessary. However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have its place. So let's analyze this study, see what they did, what the outcome measures are. But then I want

to give you guys some practical and kind of actionable takeaways for when you can train to failure and how you should configure a training week. So in this study that actually Mr. Knuckles reviewed in the second issue of Mass, so there were 28 men in this study. They were actually untrained, which will be a little bit more important later on. So there were 28 men in this study, they were actually untrained, which will be a little bit more important later on. But there were four groups and these four groups trained unilaterally on the knee extension. So that just means there might have been a person and on that person, he used one leg on the leg extension for one group and the other leg was in another group. And those were two groups. And then there was another person and he used one leg in

one group and one leg in the other group. So the four groups were the first thing was that and everybody did resistance training for six weeks. And some people trained at 30% of 1RM and some people trained at 80% of 1RM. So two groups trained at 30%, two groups trained at 80%. The other difference on top of that was is that one of the groups that trained at 30% went to failure on every single set. And one of the groups just did what they called volitional interruption, which meant that they stopped the set close to failure. So we'll discuss what that means as well. Another 80% group went to

failure on every set, and then another 80% group went to volitional interruption. So everybody trained at either 80% or 30%, and then those groups were split up more. So one group at 80 and 30% with the failure, the other group stopped just short of failure. So what were the results on this? Well, the results overall, when looking at the overall analysis of this, is that there was essentially no difference. So failure did not increase hypertrophy and did not increase strength more so than not training to failure. Additionally, and this is another concept to get back to, there was no difference in the hypertrophy or strength adaptations between the 80 or the 30% group, meaning between high loads and low loads, it didn't matter for strength and

hypertrophy. We'll address the high load and low load concept in a little bit. Let's focus on the failure since that's the main question. So, okay, no difference between groups. All right. But let's look at the number of reps that each group got per set. The groups that were in the 30% got 20 reps per set, and the high-load group got 10 reps per set. So if we look at this, let's say the high-load group, 80%, 10 reps per set. Well, between the failure and non-failure group, there was only about one rep difference, meaning the individuals that didn't train to failure got

10, the individuals that trained to failure got 11. So the group that didn't train to failure, they actually stopped at about a 9 RPE. So if you're familiar with the RPE scale, an RPE of 10 equals max effort, 9 means you could have done one more rep or one repetition in reserve, 8, two more reps in reserve. So training to a nine RP, only one rep short of failure, that's pretty much almost failure. So this study didn't really compare one group training to failure versus another group training far from failure. It actually compared one group training to failure and the other group almost training to failure. So that was the same thing.

Yeah, same thing in the low load group. One group trained to failure and the other group only trained about one rep off or so to failure. So that was the same thing. Yeah, same thing in the low load group, one group trained to failure, and the other group only trained about one rep off or so from failure. So, you know, this study, while is interesting, it didn't really answer the question of training to failure versus training at about a six or seven RP. Is there a difference there, which that I think is a different question. And I don't think we have quite enough information to answer that dead on, although I don't think there's a huge difference. But if we break down this practically, the other thing that I want to say is that training to failure acutely did cause more fatigue. So I think the most important thing here is to look at how you can configure a training week. So this is something that I explain to my students here at the university all the time, which is, let's say you have two people that are training.

And the first person goes into the gym on Monday. And on Monday, they take 70% on squat, and they do four sets all to failure on 70% on squat. Let's say on the first set, they get maybe 13 reps. On the second set, they get nine. On the third, they get seven. And then on the fourth, they get six reps. Now, let's say you take somebody else and this dude goes into the gym. He did four sets of eight at 70% on the squat. Well, that means he's going to be about a five, six, seven, eight RPE on every set.

He's going to be short of failure. If I would ask you and I said, hey, Mike, the dude that went into the gym, and on those four sets, he went to failure on every single set. And I wanted to come back again on Wednesday and squat, is he going to be fatigued? Or is he still going to be able to do it? I think, you know, he might just miss that workout for one reason or another. Yeah, I don't think he's coming back into the gym on Wednesday, I think maybe Friday, he could train. So that's a one and a half time a week frequency. However, the dude that did four sets of eight on 70% was training at a submaximal RP. I think that in that case, he's going to come back and train again on Wednesday, and then he's going to come back and train again on Friday. So while training to

failure might have felt like you crushed in that one session, you might have actually got more volume in that one session than not training to failure. I think the cost of failure is that you're more fatigued after that session, you cause more muscle damage, and then recovery process is a lot longer. Let's say it takes 96 hours or so. Whereas if you're smart and you do a little less volume in one session, you can actually train more frequently, and that's going to result in more volume throughout the course of the week. So we talked so much about volume and skeletal muscle growth and adaptation. So I think failure is important here because I think if you're trained to failure too much, it can actually cost you volume and that it's going to decrease your training frequency. So although there was no difference in this study in terms of failure versus non-failure, the thing to remember is that they only trained twice per week here and the sessions were spread out and they were also untrained in that you're going to make progress on anything. So they didn't really have the concept here in this study of saying, hey, just failure impact recovery for the next session. And the other group also trained really close to failure. So they couldn't really make that differential

comparison. So I think that's really important to keep in mind when taking a look at that. Yeah, that makes sense. And so practically speaking, then, would you say that failure should be worked into certain types of workouts, should be worked into certain types of training blocks, certain types of exercises? Or would you say that it's probably best just left out? Yeah, so I think that's a really good question. And I wouldn't say that it's best left out. I don't think it's necessary. But I also think that people enjoy training to failure a lot. And you know, I certainly enjoy it. Obviously, if you train to failure, doing that volume, you know, you're going to get a nice pump, and you're going to enjoy the session. So I do think there's something to be said for that. And I'm a big believer of giving people some of what they need as if I have a client and also giving people some of what they want. Meaning if you take away from somebody who that always trains to failure and you take away that concept, well, they're probably not going to do your program because they're not going to enjoy it as much or it's going to take time for them to understand that they don't need

to always do that. So when I would work in failure is let's say you take that same Monday, Wednesday, Friday training setup and you're training a muscle group three times a week. let's say you take that same Monday, Wednesday, Friday training setup and you're training a muscle group three times a week. Well, if you take that on Monday and Wednesday, you only have 48 hours recovery before the next session, but on Friday you have 72 hours. So the time that I would incorporate the failure training would be on Friday because that way I have more time to recover before the next training session. Additionally, let's just say that's a lower body day and I have squats and maybe I have hack squats, leg presses, and then I have leg extension and leg curls. I would save the failure training probably for the single joint movements because it's not going to cause quite as much fatigue or

a systemic fatigue as something like squats. Additionally, if I were to train to failure on that day on squats or a multi-joint movement, I would probably only do it on my last set, you know, and as many reps as possible set or a plus set. So if you have, you know, three sets of four at 80% of one RM, maybe just on that last set of four, you can take that to failure and you might get seven or eight reps, something like that. And that way, it's only one set, it gets you the feeling of you can see how much you've done. It also allows you if you were to do that every week on that one day, you would allow you to gauge progression. So let's say on the plus set or these many reps as possible set on the four reps at 80%, you got seven reps, then you added five pounds for the next week, and you got eight reps, well, then you would know you

got stronger, but it wouldn't be enough failure training to really negatively impact the next session. And then if you have single joint exercises after that toward the end of the week, and you want to have a little bit of fun and go to failure on those. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's totally appropriate. I think the trouble is if you have, let's say, a high rep day at the beginning of the week on a Monday, 15 reps, and now you're doing every set to failure. And then you want to come back again on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and train, it's going to be a little bit problematic. So I just think it's about how you're structuring it and how you're allocating it within that week of training or that micro cycle, if you will, that's appropriate. So I would keep that failure training

toward the end of the week, for the most part, keep it on the exercises that are more single joint and not as stressful. If you do use it on a multi joint movement, I think it's something that you can do. But I would really only use it on that last set or so. And that way you can use it as a way to gauge progress as well. Additionally, if for somebody who's a beginner and their technique, let's say, isn't necessarily sound on a squat, bench press, or deadlift, I would then definitely stay away from failure on those lifts as they just don't really need that and you don't want to run the risk of injury. And for them, I would keep the failure training more targeted towards single joint movements that there's not as much skill involved in performing them. Makes sense. And for people, I would keep the failure training more targeted towards single joint movements that there's not as much skill involved in performing them.

Makes sense. And for people that are following, let's say, simpler type of programs. Let's say somebody is like we were talking before the interview. My programs in my books for men and women are essentially push-pull legs programs with some additional accessory work. And for guys, some additional upper body volume in particular. And for girls, some additional lower body volume in particular, and for girls, some additional lower body volume. And so for people that are following, it doesn't have to be my program, but a program like that where you're not necessarily squatting three days a

week or training any individual muscle group directly three days a week, you can think with how many times you are training it though. So let's say you're bench pressing twice a week, you know, Mike's advice is equally applicable there where save it for your second bench press session or your second chest session or press session. Would you agree there, Mike? Yeah. Right on the money, dude. You know, we talked about this, like you said, a little bit before we jumped on the air here. And I think the most important thing here is to understand things from a conceptual perspective. So if you're not doing a lift, like a squat three times a week or two times a week in and of itself, that doesn't really matter to understand the concept. If you're

training that muscle group, whether it's directly or indirectly twice a week, well, just take a look. Hey, I'm training that muscle group directly on Monday and then indirectly on Thursday. Okay. Like for example, let's say lower body. So let's say you're doing some heavy deadlifting first and then a few days later, you're doing some heavy squatting. Yeah, exactly. So if you're doing that first on, on deadlifts on Monday, and then let's say Thursday, you're doing squatting. If you understand the concept, you know, that you'd probably put your failure training on squat on Thursday, because you have much farther time from Thursday to Monday than you do from Monday to Thursday. So if you just understand the concept and think

about it logically and say, Hey, you know, I trained a failure on deadlift today. I'm going to get a nice pump here and I'm going to feel great. I'm going to feel really beat up tonight. I'm going to enjoy that feeling. But Thursday, I'm supposed to come back and squat. That's going to compromise my squatting. However, if I trained deadlift a little smarter and I trained about a 7, 8 RPE, I'm going to be good to go to squat on Thursday. And then on Thursday, I got four sets of squats and I only take one of them to failure.

I should still be good to go to deadlift on the following Monday. So I would think about that logically. And I think that's in the grand scheme of things, thinking from a conceptual perspective, you know, I think sometimes if somebody is training a muscle group once a week, which I don't think is optimal, I think it would be better to train it two to three times a week. Oftentimes people will be training a muscle group once a week and they'll do everything to failure. And then they'll try to add in a second day based upon somebody's recommendations. Let's say they train on Monday to failure, then on Thursday or Friday, they try to add it in. And that first time they do it, they feel terrible. And they say, you know, I can't really add this second training day in.

I don't know why these people are making these recommendations. And then they always think that, hey, I can't train more than once a week. When in reality, if they would just cut the volume a little bit or cut the training to failure on Monday, they'd then be able to add in that second session no problem, and they would adapt to it and be good to go. So I think failure training, while can be used, as we've talked about, it's really about how you allocate that failure training and how you allocate that volume within a week. And we have to look at the overarching concept of the total weekly volume or training block volume or yearly volume is more important than

the daily volume. And the daily volume is important that you don't want to overdo it. And I think failure training is an easy way to overdo it in the example that you gave Mike, whereas if you train to failure on that deadlift on Monday, squatting is going to be difficult on Thursday. But if you stay short of failure, seven, eight RP, you should be good to go on Thursday. Thus, you've increased your volume frequency throughout the week. you should be good to go on Thursday. Thus you've increased your volume frequency throughout the week. Hey, quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth. So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as

well, please do tell them about it. It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say thank you. You can find me on Instagram at Muscle for Life Fitness, Twitter at Muscle for Life, and Facebook at Muscle for Life Fitness. Twitter at Muscle for Life and Facebook at Muscle for Life Fitness. You mentioned earlier that you want to touch on, I think this is a good point, on just the point of the difference between the 30% load and the 80% load and how that affected strength and muscle growth, because that's obviously just an ongoing discussion. Although if you pay attention to particularly the research, I mean, just recently there was that great meta-analysis from Schoenfeld. But where I think the discussion is at least a lot clearer now than it was a few years ago in terms of what's the relationship between load and gains.

But many people still either think that you have to train heavy to gain muscle. You're just going to plateau if you train lightly. On the other hand, you have a lot of people that think that there's really no difference at all in any way between training with lighter loads versus heavier loads. And some of you are discussing again for the interview. So I thought it'd be good to just touch on that quickly before we wrap up because obviously there's a little bit more to consider than just purely the mechanisms in play. Yeah, Mike, I really think this is an important topic to discuss. And there's really a few things at play here. So I'll try to

cover three or four things here over the next few minutes. So in this study, as you pointed out, there's two of the groups trained at 30% and two groups trained at 80%. And there was no difference, meaning that for hypertrophy and strength, it seems to say that, hey, training at 30% of 1RM is just as good for those measures as it is as training at 80% of 1RM. And the meta-analysis that you mentioned also shows that essentially that low load and high load training produce the same hypertrophy and strength adaptation. So what does this mean for you? Can you go out and say, hey, I'm always going to train at 30% of 1RM. I'm always going to do sets of 20, 25, 30 and achieve the same strength and hypertrophy as training at a high load. And I don't necessarily believe that. So let's talk about two reasons I don't necessarily believe

that. I think that the data that's out there is good and the meta-analysis is correct and the results of this study are correct. But remember, the training status in this study was untrained. So a lot of the training statuses in the scientific literature, especially on these high-verse, low-load studies, are in relatively untrained or moderately trained individuals. So a meta-analysis, it's only as good as the data that it has to analyze. So one of the limitations of a meta-analysis is that if there's no studies on highly trained people or well-trained people, it simply can't analyze them. So while the results are correct, I doubt that if you were to get a really experienced individual that's been training for 10 years or so, you know, maybe, you know, squats, 200 kilos, benches, you know, 145 kilos and 300 pounds and 440 pounds for those

that work in pounds. And they do that. And you're going to say to them, and they're used to training with high loads, you're only going to train at 20, 30% or one around with 20 to 30 reps for a while. I highly doubt that their strength would improve as much as somebody that's training at 80%. I just don't, I think we have evidence that suggests indirectly that that's not going to be the case. So while I do think these results exist in the literature, I think we have to consider training status. And the second reason that I don't necessarily think it's a good recommendation to say, hey, all the time you can train at 20, 30% is just from a feasibility and practical perspective. So what's optimal or what shows results isn't always what's practical. And when you look at this, you know, I want you to think about training two to three times a week on a muscle group and doing three sets of a 20 RM

because when low load training seems to work, it seems to actually be close to failure. So of a 20 to 30 RM, two to three times a week on a multi joint exercise. I think that's pretty miserable. I also think progressive overload becomes really difficult to continually increase your 20 RM. And I just think the practicality, the feasibility, and just the general want to train would decrease after a while if you're on your sixth week of doing this. And you say, man, I have to go in here and do this training of three sets of 25 RM on squat again. I think there's a time where you're not going to want to do that. Also, we do know that in higher trained people, lower repetitions and higher lows

should be better for strength. So I do think you're going to need to work across the repetition range. But the other thing to bring up here too is that we don't have to take everything as an all or none principle. Because there is good evidence, I'll now backtrack a little bit and be nice to low load training and say that because there is evidence that this is efficacious for hypertrophy and strength, it can certainly be part of your program. Whether it's within a week of altering repetitions of 20 reps on one day, 12 reps on one day and six reps on another day, a wide kind of undulation pattern or pyramid, if you will. That's certainly fine. That's certainly appropriate. It could be something that you do for,

you know, a week or two at a time, and then you go down to lower reps kind of in a periodized scheme throughout a macro cycle throughout a year. So I think we need to understand that it can play a role and you can use it at times and understand that if you're in a volume block, that's probably when you'd use this. You also wouldn't do 20 reps two days before you would do four reps because that would cause a lot of fatigue. So it depends on when the year you're training and it's not an all or none thing. A lot of times studies will pitch this versus that. And remember, all it's doing is looking at is this better than this. It doesn't mean that you do this or that all the time. It's just a concept. And you take that concept and you can apply it, meaning, hey, you know what? I have an injury right now and I can't

load really, really heavy, but I can load light and do 20 reps. That's a great time to use this strategy. It just doesn't have to be an all the time thing. Well said, well said. And there's that point of practicality is just, it can't be overstated enough. It applies to diet and it applies to training and that, you know, the old saying that the best diet is the one you can stick to. In many ways, it's so long as you stick to certain fundamentals, of course, you can't get around energy balance and macronutrient balance and so forth. That also applies to training. And in many ways, the best training program is the one that you're going to enjoy and stick to for the longterm. So long as you follow

certain fundamentals, you know, related to overload related, related to intensity related to frequency, but you have quite a bit of wiggle room that, you know, you might knowingly be doing something that maybe isn't scientifically speaking, 100% optimal, but you like it a lot more than what would be whatever we currently consider 100% optimal. That's a reason to do it. There's no question, man. And I think, you know, if you're training purely for hypertrophy purposes and that's your main goal and you say, man, I hate squatting. Well, okay. You know, if you want to get jacked and you want to get your legs bigger, do you have to back squat? Absolutely not. Do I think it's a good idea? I think it is. I think you're going to get maybe more bang for

your buck with that exercise, but I don't think you have to. So if you really, really don't want to, and you can incorporate front squats or hack squats or leg presses or do other things, and those things you're going to train more frequently and you're going to do more volume because you enjoy them and you'd rather go to the gym and do that, then that's fine. Go for it. I think you can certainly make progress that way. As long as you have the fundamentals, the tenets, like you said, progressive overload specificity, I think you're going to be fine. Mike, can I have a minute or two? I think I can give another example in this to help explain this concept. It's a little off topic, but if that's okay with you.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we talked about this before we came on too, and I think here's a good evidence of optimal and then what's practical. So if we take the concept of cardio for lifters, for example, I think that the interference effect is well established in that moderate intensity or long duration cardiovascular exercise, aerobic exercise is going to attenuate or harm, if you will, somewhat hypertrophy strength and power adaptations, whereas HIIT, high intensity interval training or sprinting is not. The reason being HIIT or sprinting mechanistically is similar to the adaptations in terms of on a cellular level that you're going to get to resistance training and on a neuromuscular level. However, I don't think doing HIIT all the time is practical. So to illustrate this, you know, you have somebody that goes to work and they're at work and you tell them as their coach, hey, I want you to go into the gym three to four times this week for your cardio sessions and I want you to do HIIT. Well, doing 30 minutes of HIIT and 30 minutes of sprinting is very mentally demanding and it also causes a

pretty decent amount of muscle damage. So if that person is supposed to go in and get four sessions that week after work, I guarantee you they're going to miss a couple of them because they've had a long day and they just don't feel like it. But if you consider the interference effect and you say, well, most of the detrimental effects on hypertrophy and strength with cardio are when people in the literature are running for an hour to two hours at a time. And you say, hey, I can do steady state cardio. I just need to use cycling for 30 to 40 minutes or so rather than running. And you tell this person that gets off of work,

rather than doing HIIT four days a week, I want you to over the next month, I want you to get 12 cardio sessions in. Six of them should be HIIT because mechanistically that's probably better, but six of them can be steady state cycling for 30 to 40 minutes. I guarantee you they're going to adhere to that much better and they're going to get double the sessions in because they're still going to at least go to the gym on those days. And because you're being smart about the way you're programming aerobic exercise, it's not going to have a huge detrimental impact on hypertrophy, because you're using cycling, and you're not using running, and you're keeping it shorter, and they're going to adhere to it better, because they're not going to be able to train hit at 90% max heart rate reserve all the

time. It's just simply not feasible. So I think this is an example of, hey, we understand the mechanism at play with minor intensity exercise, minor intensity cardio isn't, you know, anabolic by any measure. But when we take a look at this, they're going to adhere to it better. That'll probably result in a, you know, if they're dieting, a better negative energy balance over time because they're at least going to go to the gym and burn more calories as opposed to if they weren't going to the gym on those days they had to do HIIT or they felt they were forced to do HIIT and they weren't enjoying it. So I hope that concept makes sense. Also, I think HIIT, because it causes damage two to three days after you've done it could still result in let's say muscle

damage to negatively impact a lower body training session if you don't place it appropriately within the week. So I hope that concept makes sense. But I just think it's a very good way to illustrate what's optimal versus what's practical. And even as a scientist, I do program those modern intensity cardio sessions for people sometimes, because I just think from a practicality perspective, it's going to be better, it's going to keep them enjoying it. It's going to keep them training, uh, more fun for them. So, uh, I think that's something to keep in mind, you know, almost anytime you write a training program, it's practicality. I totally agree. And that's a good example. Looking forward to your workouts means a lot, especially when, when you're going

for, uh, something that for most people is going to take anywhere from probably one to three or four years. You know, at least that that's my experience working with a lot of just everyday people that, you know, fitness is not their life, but they want to be in really good shape and they, you know, they want to look good. They want to feel good. And so, you know, for usually for, for what most guys want, it takes a little bit longer, but you know, if you're going to commit something for, even if it's only a year, ideally you'd look forward to every workout, but if you can't look forward to everyone, you're going to look forward to, uh, more than you're not going to look forward to. That's that, that goes a long way in getting you to your ultimate goal.

No question, man. You get, you got to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, you need to take a step back, look at what you're doing and make some adjustments because for most of us, you know, it's going to be a hobby. And as long as you stick to the fundamentals, like you said, you're going to make progress. So keep those two or three fundamentals in place. And then even if you think something else based upon the literature is better, but you're not enjoying it, switch it out and go a different direction with it. And just by the fact that you're enjoying it and you're doing all your sessions rather than missing sessions, you're going to make better progress that way over time. Absolutely. So quickly, let's just let

everybody know where they can go to find out more about your research review. Anything you want to tell people about the review? I mean, I myself, I've promoted it. I continue to read it. I really like what you guys are doing. That's why I wanted to, it was actually kind of the inspiration for doing this series is just because you have to, one, you have to like to read a lot, which I know there are a lot of people that follow me that like to read just by the nature of, you know, a lot of people find me via books, but there are a lot of people out there that don't particularly like to read and would rather to listen to this kind of stuff. But for those out there who like the science and who like to read widely in, especially in this space, uh, you know,

masses is awesome. I really like what you guys are doing with it. Thanks, man. It really does mean a lot to have somebody like yourself enjoying that as well, but mass monthly applications in strength sport. You can find that if you go to Greg Knuckles, his website, stronger by science, you'll be able to find mass pretty easily. If you're not sure if it's something that's for you, there's our first issue, which was from April 2017 is freely available. So you can go ahead and download that and try it out. See if it's something that you like. Since that issue, over this past year, we've also added audio roundtables, meaning in each written article, myself, Eric Helms and Greg Knuckles, we record an audio version of that article. So you guys can go ahead and listen to that too. And that's new since the free issue that's available. And it's just a

great time working with those guys. It's phenomenal. And we provide nine reviews each month, seven in a written format, two in a video format. And we cover recent research that's specifically applicable to individuals interested in getting bigger and stronger. And then the two videos that we do each month from Eric and myself just cover kind of fundamental concepts in terms of training program design, overall nutritional periodization, things like that. So if you're interested in mass, check it out. It's something that I really enjoy working on. The URL is strongerbyscience.com slash mass. And if you go right there, you'll see a button where you can subscribe now. And you'll also be able to download the free issue. And

you know, that's a stronger by science.com slash mass dash issue dash one, and you'll be able to get the free issue that way. So through both those URLs, you can find out everything you need to know check out what's in mass and get the first free issue. Find out if it's for you. Great. Stronger by science.com slash M A S S highly recommend anyone listening who has enjoyed this discussion. You should go check this out because you are going to like mass. Hey there, it is Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did, and don't mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you're listening from.

This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility and thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then just subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any of the new goodies. Lastly, if you didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at mike at muscle for life.com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback, so please do reach out. All right, that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode,

and I hope to hear from you soon. And lastly, this episode is brought to you by me. Seriously, though, I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm going to just quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my fitness book for men, Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. Now, this book has sold over 350,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands and thousands of guys build their best bodies ever, which is why it currently has over 3,100 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know the biggest lies and myths that are keeping you from achieving the lean, muscular, strong, and healthy body that you truly desire, and if you want to learn the simple science of building the ultimate male body, then you want to read Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, which you can find on all major online retailers

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