Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Research Review: Greg Nuckols on if Lifting Weights Can Replace Cardio

Episode Date: April 25, 2018

In this episode, I speak with Greg Nuckols who’s a world-record holding powerlifter, researcher, and coach, and one of foremost authorities on the science of strength training. Greg also produces a fantastic monthly research review along with Dr. Eric Helms and Dr. Mike Zourdos, called MASS (www.strongerbyscience.com/mass), and in this interview, Greg is going to break down one of the studies analyzed in their review. The study he’s going to discuss looked at how doing high-rep squats and deadlifts compared to cycling sprints for improving cardiovascular fitness. In this discussion, Greg explains the different effects strength training and cardio have on cardiovascular fitness, whether or not doing high-rep compound weightlifting with short rest periods can give you the same benefits as sprints, what this means for your own training, body composition, and more. 4:10 - Can lifting replace cardio? 5:37 - What are the benefits of HIIT versus high intensity cardio? 10:13 - Which is more difficult - 30 seconds of 60% one rep max deadlifting or 30 seconds of sprinting? 15:14 - Physiologically, why don’t we need a lot of cardio when trying to lose fat? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

If you are a masochist and just really love doing high rep squats and deadlifts with short rest periods, you can probably do that and still increase your aerobic fitness, but you can probably do that a little bit more efficiently if you do just normal interval training instead. Hey, Mike here from Muscle Life and Legion Athletics. Welcome to another episode of the Most of Life podcast. In this episode, I speak with Greg Knuckles, who is a world record holding powerlifter, a researcher and coach, and the owner of strongerbyscience.com, where he does a lot of fantastic writing, which I highly recommend you check out. And Greg also produces a fantastic monthly exercise research review along with Dr. Eric Helms and Dr. Mike Zordos. It is called

Mass, M-A-S-S, and you can learn more about it at strongerbyscience.com forward slash mass. And I believe you can also download one of the issues for free and see if it is up your alley. Now, in this interview, Greg's going to break down one of the studies that he analyzed in that review. The study he is going to discuss looked at how doing high rep squats and deadlifts compared to cycling sprints for improving cardiovascular fitness. In other words, do you need to do cardio or can you just lift weights faster? And in this discussion, Greg explains the different effects strength training and cardio have on our cardiovascular fitness, whether or not doing high rep compound weightlifting with short rest periods can give us the same benefits as sprints or cycle

sprints, as well as what it all means for us practically in terms of our own training and body composition. This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, but I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my 100% natural pre-workout fat burner supplement Forge. Now it was designed to be used specifically when exercising in a fasted state, and it helps you maximize fat burning while training on an empty stomach, minimize the amount of muscle that you lose while training in this state and maintain intensity and focus in your workouts. All that is why Forge has over 400 reviews on Amazon with a four-star average

and another 220 on my website with a four-and-a-half-star average. So if you want to get leaner, faster, and especially in the quote-unquote hard-to-lose spots like the hips, thighs, and belly, then you want to head over to www.legionathletics.com and pick up a bottle of Forge today. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code podcast at checkout and you'll save 10% on your entire order.

And lastly, you should also know that I have a very simple 100% money back guarantee that works like this. You either love my stuff or you get your money back, period. You don't have to return the products. You don't have to fill out forms. You don't have to jump through any other hoops or go through any other shenanigans. So you really can't lose here. Head over to www.lesionathletics.com now, place your order and see for yourself why my supplements have thousands of rave reviews all over the internet. And if for whatever reason, they're just not for you, contact us and we will give you a full refund on the spot. All righty, that is enough shameless plugging

for now at least. Let's get to the show. Greg, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Mike. So this is going to be a research review and we are going to be, or you are going to be, breaking down a study that you reviewed in your first volume of your monthly research review, which is called Mass, which everybody listening, you'll learn a little bit more about that after we're done talking about the subject at hand, which is going to be, can lifting replace cardio? Do you really need to do cardio if you're lifting? If you're more

into weightlifting, can you really get any benefit from cardio? What types of cardio? How does that play out? And yeah, I'm excited because this is of course an ongoing discussion in the weightlifting world where you have people on all sides of it saying all kinds of things. So I'm just going to pass the mic to you, Greg, and let you break down this study and explain to us what can we learn from it? Yeah, absolutely. So the title of the study was the effects of exercise modality during additional, quote, high intensity interval training, close quote, upon aerobic fitness and strength in powerlifting and strongman athletes. Essentially, what they what they were interested in for this study was there's plenty of research showing, especially once you get pretty strong and you're doing heavy compound exercises, that's actually like quite energetically intensive. The last time you went for a 10 rep max squat,

you were probably winded afterwards. And that's because that's burning a lot of energy just the same way, like running or sprinting would. So what they wanted to see in this study is essentially, can you get the same benefits from HIIT style training with lifting weights as you could via that same style of training, but on a bike performing cycle sprints? And just specifically, you might already be planning on explaining this, but what in the way of benefits are you talking about? Just so people listening are wondering like, what exactly are the benefits? The things you would subjectively notice would just be better endurance, maybe a little bit faster recovery between sets, stuff like that. In terms of how you would measure that in a lab, it would be VO2 max, which is, it's

an estimate of the total amount of oxygen your body can uptake and utilize, which is important because for aerobic activity, the ability to deliver oxygen to your muscles and utilize that oxygen to break down carbohydrate and fat and produce ATP is one of the main things that limits aerobic performance. So that's what they estimated in this study. But in terms of what you'd actually notice in day-to-day life, just, you know, generally you can go a little bit harder before getting winded. You can recover a little bit quicker between sets, stuff like that. So the participants in this study were pretty strong dudes. They were powerlifters and strongmen with at least a couple years of training experience.

And what they had them do is they split them into two groups, let them continue with their normal strength training, with their normal strength training, but had half of them add cycle sprints, which was just 30 second sprints with a couple minutes of rest in between. And the other group did squats or deadlifts with 60% of one rep max, they would either do a set for 30 seconds straight, or until they reached a point where they only had one to two reps left in the tank. And then they would rest between sets for that as well. So in terms of like work rest intervals, they were similar between cycling and lifting. Basically, the only difference is for 30 seconds, you're going really hard on a bike or for 30 seconds, you're doing some pretty light squats and deadlifts and trying to get in as many reps as possible. And in terms of outcomes they were

looking at, they were looking at predicted VO2 max. So this was kind of a practical experiment where they weren't doing it in a lab, which is kind of cool because it's the type of experiment that pretty much any strength coach or personal trainer could do if they like without access to fancy equipment. Downside is that that might make the results a little bit less reliable because essentially they did the YMCA three minute step test where basically what you do is you do step ups at a defined cadence for three minutes and then look to see how much your heart rate elevates and how quickly it comes back down. And that is supposed to correlate pretty strongly with VO2 max. And they did predicted one rep max for knee extensions to see if the cycling or the lifting would affect

strength differently. The reason they didn't go with either like a squat or a deadlift one rep max is they recruited all of their subjects when they were like in the off season from their sport. It's hard to convince some athletes that like, hey, we're going to max on your squat, but you're like four months out from a meet anyways. And they're like, no, I'm supposed to be in like base building training, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, they assessed strength with with knee extension instead. So yeah, in terms of results from the study, the increase in strength of predicted knee extension when rep max, basically identical between groups. So it didn't seem that the high intensity squats and deadlifts were necessarily better for strength development than the cycle sprints. And in terms of

what was driving the strength development for these guys, it was probably just their normal heavy training, not necessarily the cardio modality. So I think a better interpretation of that is there was probably some degree of like interference effect taking place with both of the groups. And that just wasn't different between modalities. Right. But yeah, so strength increases similar between groups, but increase in predicted VO2 max was basically twice as large in the group doing cycle sprints as the group doing the high intensity squats and deadlifts. So in terms of what we can take away from this study, aerobic fitness did actually increase in both groups. So if you are a masochist and just really love doing high rep squats and deadlifts with short rest periods, you can probably do that and still increase your aerobic fitness.

But you can probably do that a little bit more efficiently if you do just normal interval training instead. Doing something like sprints on a bike or probably sprints on a track would work just as well. Yeah. And that's going to have less, uh, at least systemic demand than doing 30 seconds of lighter, but intense deadlifting. Oh, for sure. For sure. Hey, quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth. So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, please do tell them about it. It really

helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say thank you. You can find me on Instagram at MuscleForLifeFitness, Twitter at MuscleForLife, and Facebook at MuscleForLifeFitness. What are your thoughts in terms of difficulty? I'm trying to, I haven't done that, but I'm trying to just do it in my head. What approximately, how many reps would you be getting? And as opposed to, I know the difficulty because I've done a high intensity, like true high intensity on a bike. It's hard. You are pushing yourself as hard as you can.

30 seconds isn't obviously that long of a sprint. The 60 second sprints are longer or what kill me. So I've done that before. I know that, but I haven't. What are your thoughts in terms of how hard is it to do the 30 seconds of 60% one rep max deadlifting versus 30 seconds of sprinting? Man, I think that the 30 seconds on a bike would be more energetically demanding. Yeah. Just in terms of like what would have you sucking wind longer.

Yeah. Just in terms of the overall suck factor, probably worse for lifting. I mean, terms of the overall suck factor, probably worse for lifting. I mean, they were going for seven rounds and if I'm doing sets anywhere close to failure with 90 seconds rest in between squats and deadlifts, like the low back pump you'd get from that would just be hellacious and stick around for hours. So I think, uh, I think it would, would suck to do either, but they would suck in different ways. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Then it's not surprising then that the hit was better in terms of VO2 because that's really what you're training more directly, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, it's kind of like, uh, just making sure you

choose the right tool for the job. Lifting is obviously a great tool to build muscle and get stronger. And it is an effective tool for building cardiovascular fitness, but not the best tool for the job. Whereas cardio, obviously not a great tool for building muscle and strength, but it is a great tool for improving cardiovascular fitness. So I feel like this should be pretty intuitive to most people who don't already have a stake in this ongoing argument. But there is there is a cohort of people that argue like, oh, no, like if you're trying to maximize cardiovascular fitness, you can totally do that in the weight room. You don't need to run. You don't need to hop on a bike. Just do high rep lifting, quote unquote, lift weights

faster. That's the yeah, that's the meme, right? That's the bro meme. So yeah, lifting weights faster can get you in better shape, but won't get you in as good of shape or get you in better shape as quickly as hopping on a bike or going for runs would. Yeah. Just to clarify there by getting in shape, you just mean cardiovascularly. Of course, if you're, if somebody listening is thinking, getting in shape as to like just being lean and looking good. Well, I mean, you don't need cardio for that. Obviously it helps to exercise and you need some muscle. Um, but the cardiovascular fitness is completely separate from what most people probably think as at least looking in shape. You know, I think that's the

case for losing weight. Uh, I don't necessarily know that that's the case so much for gaining weight. So there is some research like overfeeding studies looking at basically what predicts just how much total weight you gain from a calorie, like a fixed calorie surplus and how much of that weight is likely to be lean versus fat. And they do find that when people are put into a caloric surplus, those who have higher baseline aerobic fitness tend to gain less fat when they bulk. So I do potentially think that cardio probably isn't going to help you cut all that much quicker when just controlling for total caloric deficit. But I do think it could potentially be a useful tool for trying to maintain body composition a little bit better when you're trying to gain weight.

Yeah, no, I agree. I totally agree. I've written about that actually. So I'm on the same page. I guess I can't say I've experienced it myself because I've never really, I've always just done a bit of cardio when lean bulking, I guess you could say, for that reason. And I mean, it makes sense physiologically that your body's just better at, I guess it'd be a nutrient partitioning effect, right? And it's better at burning fat in particular, just from that perspective, even if it's just higher fat burn on the dietary fat that you're eating is going to help to some degree. And if it's played out over time, you know, it's probably nothing super significant,

but it's enough to include. And I've recommended that it can be low intensity cardio, know, it's, it's probably nothing super significant, but it's, it's enough to include. And I've recommended that it can be low intensity cardio, even if it's walking, you know, if it's just a few hours of walking per week, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like it, it, it doesn't need to be anything crazy in all likelihood. And, and why do you think that is in terms of the physiology of it? I kind of just brushed over it, but I'm curious as to your thoughts. Yeah. So for anything you do, you need energy and your body can get that energy from breaking down carbs, fats, proteins, but primarily carbs and fat. At rest, you're going to be burning a higher proportion of fat, lower proportion of carbs.

As exercise intensity goes up, you burn a higher proportion of carbs, lower proportion of fat, just because your body can get energy a little bit more efficiently from carbohydrates. So when energy demands are higher, it burns more carbs. But also your total energetic status plays into that to some degree as well. When you're in a caloric deficit, when you're not eating as much, your respiratory exchange ratio, which is basically estimating your proportion of fat burn versus carbs burn with a lower RER meaning more fat and a higher RER meaning more carbs. Your RER just naturally decreases when you're in a caloric deficit. That's why I don't necessarily think that cardio is going to help that much with trying to lose fat, lose weight when you're in a calorie deficit,

because your RER is going to be low regardless, just at baseline resting conditions, which is most of our day. You're burning a large proportion of fat regardless. When you're in a caloric surplus, on the other hand, respiratory exchange ratio, even at rest, naturally tends to increase a little bit. Which of course makes sense, just for anybody listening, because there's more energy available. I mean, you're feeding your body quite a bit more energy. So it doesn't, it goes, Hey, I don't, if I don't have to get rid of, I don't have to tap into my energy stores. My fat is much than I won't. Yeah, exactly. But people with higher aerobic fitness tend to have lower RERs, uh, in any condition, but especially in a caloric surplus.

And as you get in better shape, your resting RER tends to decrease. So you burn a larger percentage of fat at rest. Um, so that's, that's probably what's going on there. And, uh, as far as helping people maintain better body composition as they gain weight. Yeah. Makes sense. Back to the study. Then is there anything else that, um, any, any other interesting tidbits, anything else that, that you want to share practical takeaways? Just use the right tool for the job. If you're trying to build muscle and strength, you do that in the weight room. If you're trying to get in better shape, you can also use heavy compound lifts, high reps, short rest periods to do that, but you're going to be able to do it a

lot more efficiently using more traditional cardio modalities. Yeah. I would say including something like that in your routine, assuming it's programmed well, would be more relevant to getting better at squatting and deadlifting, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. As opposed to, yeah, sure. It's nice that you'll improve your cardiovascular fitness a little bit, but the more practical reason, at least if I were personally going to be doing stuff like that, lower one rep max, more explosive type of lifting, it'd be to get better at those lifts, not necessarily to... My focus would be, that's why I'm doing it. It's nice that my cardiovascular gets a little bit better, but if I wanted to make my cardio better, I would just go do cardio.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Awesome. Well, great. I appreciate the breakdown. Very insightful. And so for everybody listening, if you like this type of discussion, then you should definitely check out Greg's monthly research review, which you can learn about at strongerbyscience.com slash mass, M-A-S-S. I love it. I read it every month. And it's Greg, it's Eric Helms, it's Mike Zordos. Very, very informative. You guys are now into your second volume, right? So second volume, third issue is out. So for everybody listening, that means that there are 12, I believe, 12 issues at this point in your backlist. That sounds right. Either 11 or 12. We're

starting into our second year this upcoming month. Awesome. And you also can get a free issue to check out and Greg, where can they get it? Stronger by science.com slash mass dash issue dash one. Okay, great. Yeah. So if you want to check it out first before joining, just head over there. And again, I highly recommend it. There are a few research reviews that are out there and this is my favorite. So I highly endorse it. Well, I appreciate it, Mike. Absolutely. And thanks for taking the time, Greg. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you. Hey there, it is Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful.

And if you did, and don't mind doing me a favor and want to help me make this the most popular health and fitness podcast on the internet, then please leave a quick review of it on iTunes or wherever you're listening from. This not only convinces people that they should check the show out, it also increases its search visibility and thus helps more people find their way to me and learn how to build their best bodies ever too. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then just subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on any of the new goodies. Lastly, if you didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at mike at muscle for life.com and share your thoughts on how you think it could be better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback. So please do reach out.

All right, that's it. Thanks again for listening to this episode. And I hope to hear from you soon. And lastly, this episode is brought to you by me. Seriously, though, I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm going to just quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically my 100% natural pre-workout

fat burner supplement Forge. Now it was designed to be used specifically when exercising in a fasted state, and it helps you maximize fat burning while training on an empty stomach, minimize the amount of muscle that you lose while training in this state and maintain intensity and focus in your workouts. All that is why Forge has over 400 reviews on Amazon with a four star average and another 220 on my website with a four and a half star average. So if you want to get leaner, faster, and especially in the quote unquote hard to lose spots like the hips, thighs, and belly, then you want to head over to www.legionathletics.com and pick up a bottle of Forge today. And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps,

use the coupon code podcast at checkout and you'll save 10% on your entire order. And lastly, you should also know that I have a very simple 100% money back guarantee that works like this. You either love my stuff or you get your money back, period. You don't have to return the products. You don't have to fill out forms. You don't have to jump through any other hoops or go through any other shenanigans. So you really can't lose here. Head over to www.legionathletics.com now, place your order and see for yourself why my supplements have thousands of rave reviews all over the internet. And if for whatever reason, they're just not for you, contact us and we will give you a full refund on the spot.