Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - Sohee Lee on Important Fitness Habits & Mindsets

Episode Date: November 11, 2016

In this episode, I have Sohee Lee back on the podcast to talk about some of the key habits and mindsets of people that succeed in achieving their fitness and goals versus those that don’t. In case you’re not familiar with Sohee, she’s a writer, coach, and bikini competitor, and, like me, she works hard to spread the good word about the actual science of proper diet, nutrition, and exercise. In this interview, I wanted her to talk about something she has really dived into in her own research and writing, and that’s the mental side of fitness. I’ve written and spoken a fair amount about it myself, but I think it’s generally undeserved and underappreciated. I’d actually like to put together an entire book on the subject, but I also want to do like 8 million other things, so, uh, we’ll see how it plays out. Anyway, my point is we tend to get so focused on the physical things--calories, macros, training variables, supplementation, etc.--and forget that none of it really matters if we can’t stick to the plan and enjoy the ride. That’s why I’m all about first and foremost creating a sustainable lifestyle and then looking at what can be done in the kitchen and gym to build the type of body that we really want. So, I hope you enjoy the interview. Here it is. 9:50 - Why is behavior change so difficult? 16:30 - What sets people who do well with diet and training apart? 30:23 - How do you deal with slipping up on your diet or training? 39:38 - How do successful people make a lifestyle change? 42:10 - What is ego depletion and is it real? 47:23 - Where can people find Sohee Fit and what are you working on now? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey, it's Mike, and I just want to say thanks for checking out my podcast. I hope you like what I have to say. And if you do like what I have to say in the podcast, then I guarantee you're going to like my books. Now, I have several books, but the place to start is Bigger Leaner Stronger If You're a Guy and Thinner Leaner Stronger If You're a Girl. I mean, these books, they're basically going to teach you everything you need to know about dieting, training, and supplementation to build muscle, lose fat, and look and feel great without having to give up all the foods you love or live

in the gym grinding through workouts that you hate. Now you can find these books everywhere. You can buy them online, you know, Amazon, Audible, iBooks, Google Play, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, and so forth. And if you're into audio books like me, you can actually get one of them for free with a 30-day free trial of Audible. To do that, go to www.muscleforlife.com forward slash audio books and you can see how to do that there. I make my living primarily as a writer, so as you can imagine, every book sold helps. So please do check out my books if you haven't already. Now also, if you like my work in general, then I think you're going to really like what I'm doing with my supplement company, Legion. As you may know, I'm really not a fan of the supplement industry. I've wasted who knows how much money over the

years on worthless junk supplements and have always had trouble finding products that I actually liked and felt were worth buying. And that's why I finally decided to just make my own. Now, a few of the things that make my supplements unique are one, they're 100% naturally sweetened and flavored. Two, all ingredients are backed by peer-reviewed scientific research that you can verify for yourself because we explain why we've chosen each ingredient

and we cite all supporting studies on our website, which means you can dive in and go validate everything that we say. Three, all ingredients are also included at clinically effective dosages, which are the exact dosages used in the studies proving their effectiveness. And four, there are no proprietary blends, which means that you know exactly what you're buying. Our formulations are 100% transparent. So if that sounds interesting to you, then head over to legionathletics.com. That's L-E-G-I-O-N athletics.com. And you can learn a bit more about the supplements that I have as well as my mission

for the company, because I want to accomplish more than just sell supplements. I really want to try to make a change for the better in the supplement industry because I think it's long overdue. And ultimately, if you like what you see and you want to buy something, then you can use the coupon code podcast, P-O-D-C-A-S-T, and you'll save 10% on your first order. So thanks again for taking the time to listen to my podcast and let's get Muscle for Life mindsets of people that succeed in achieving their fitness goals versus those that don't. Now, in case you're not familiar with Sohi, she's a writer, coach, and bikini competitor. And like me, she works hard to spread the good word about the actual science of proper diet, nutrition, and exercise. Now, in this interview, I wanted her to talk about something that she has

really dived into in her own research and writing, and that's the mental side of fitness. I've written and spoken a fair amount about it myself, but I think it's generally underserved and underappreciated. And I'd actually like to put together an entire book on the subject, but I also would like to do like 8 million other things. So we will see how that plays out. But my point is that we tend to get very focused on the physical things, you know, calories, macros, training variables, supplementation, and so forth. And we can forget though, that none of that really matters in the long run, if we can't stick to the plan and enjoy the ride. And a lot of that is in our minds. So that's why I'm always kind of talking about creating a sustainable lifestyle

first and looking at what that looks like, and then looking at what can be done in the kitchen and the gym to build the type of body that we really want. Sustainability is the key here. So I hope you liked the interview and let's get to it. Hey, Sohi, thanks for coming back on the podcast. It's been a little while since we spoke last. Hey, Mike, thanks thanks for coming back on the podcast. It's been a little while since we spoke last. Hey, Mike, thanks for having me back on. Yeah, my pleasure. All right. So we're here to talk about something that I guess is right up your alley because you said this is something that you've been focusing a lot on in your research for school. If you want to give a quick breakdown of what are we going to be talking about?

Right. So my, well, actually most of it is my own self-interest and the research that I've done on my own over the past several years is, which is on a fitness mindset, more specifically understanding behavior change will power motivation as it relates to health behaviors, as it relates to achieving our body composition goals, as it relates to creating lifestyle habits. All that stuff is what I'm interested in. So I'm currently actually just started my master's program in psychology to better understand that and learn how to become more effective thinker and a better scientist so I can more effectively interpret the research on willpower motivation out there and then effectively convey that to the

public. Cool. Yeah. And ultimately turn it into something practical that everyone can understand. Right. Absolutely. Do something with. Right. Cool. So with that in mind, let's just start with what are some of the most common misconceptions that people have on these subjects and how they relate to health and fitness and getting the body that we want. Yeah. So actually, we were just talking about that. Some of my colleagues and I this past weekend about willpower and self-control and about how a lot of times when most of the people that I work with

tend to be general fat loss clients. They just want to shed maybe 10 to 20 pounds, maybe 30 pounds and do it in a way that doesn't have them bending over backwards, doesn't compromise their quality of life, and allows them to sustain their results over the long haul. That's really what most people want, wants to come to me anyway. And I find that a lot of times, let's say they are on a nutrition program that I've set up for them, or they're on a workout program, and then they're doing really well for a while and then on day eight they slip up and they don't follow the plan perfectly what tends to happen is that they come to me and their first response is oh I just need more willpower or I need more

self-control and I understand this because I used to think this way for probably about six years of my lifting career I just thought I wasn't trying hard enough. I thought that the program wasn't the problem. It was me. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't being strict on myself. So I thought the answer was that I need to pick up my slack. I need to have more self-control and white knuckle it even more. Yeah, really put the screws to yourself.

Yeah, and that's kind of the backwards way to think about it. And it really sets you up for failure, I found. So the truth of the matter is with willpower and with self-control, the way I encourage other people to think about it is more like you don't want to rely on willpower. You should strive to rely on willpower as little as possible to get to where you want to be. And then in that case, people will say, well, then what do you mean? How do I do what I want to do then? You want to rely on making lifestyle change, making smaller incremental changes to your everyday behaviors such that you're relying less on willpower and more on habit to get the sustainable results. And if you think about it, it makes sense.

The more something is a habit, the less you have to conscientiously think about it in order to make it happen, which means that the more successful you'll be at it, the less willpower you rely on, and the easier it will be to keep up over the long haul. Yeah, exactly. You get to that point where you know that that's what you're going to be doing at that time. Like, okay, so let's say the habit of working out. So you get to a point where you know that let's say your program is five days a week or three days a week, whatever. Let's say it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday. You know that unless you're in the hospital, Monday at 5 p.m., you're going to be at the gym. It's just what you do. Just like how you know that you're going to brush your teeth tonight or you're going to, you know, wake up tomorrow to go to work or whatever.

There's no question in your mind whether it's going to happen or not. Right. It's a thing you do by default. And if you don't do it, then it feels off. Yeah. So it almost becomes with a habit. You know, it's a habit when it's almost harder not to do the behavior. It feels weird.

It feels off. Not like, for example, let's say biting your nails. Some people do it. It's almost harder not to do the behavior. It feels weird. It feels off. For example, let's say biting your nails. Some people do it. And when they don't do it, they start to get really anxious and they feel this urge to put their fingernails in their mouth. The same thing with things like working out. If you normally work out Monday at 4 p.m. or 5 p.m., then that's what feels right to you. Yeah, and that's much easier, obviously, to do is just go with what feels right. So if you can make the right things feel right, then you're setting

yourself up for success. Right. Yeah. So cool. What's another common misconception out there? Behavior change is easy. Because I like, yeah, you hear about that. Like, oh, it just takes, if you just do something for 30 days, then you're locked in. You know what really grinds my gears with a lot of the coaches in the industry is, and granted, some of it is not entirely their fault because they don't fully understand how it works. But when they tell other people and they tell their clients or just the lay public, just do it. Or you have to want it. That's only one small part of the equation. Or you have to want it.

That's only one small part of the equation. Wanting something is not always sufficient to actually achieving your goal. And what's your insight on why behavior change is as hard as it is? And what's, you know, people think it's, you know, relatively easy, or they think that it's just a 30-day thing. And what have you found? Well, most people tend to think that behavior change is all about making drastic lifestyle change and hoping it'll stick and then somehow find themselves surprised when it doesn't work that way. And I can empathize because again, that was me for a really long time. Yeah. We've all been there in one way or another.

It never crossed my mind that there was a lot another way. It never crossed my mind that, Hey, you know what? It actually doesn't have to be this painful. I couldn't fathom that, oh, this feels doable. That was not a feeling that was familiar to me for a really long time. For whatever reason, I think we've been trained to believe that if we want to make drastic lifestyle change, we have to resort to drastic measures. When really, if we go the more moderate route and be more patient, take smaller steps, then over the long haul, we're going to make a lot more drastic change. And it's hard to see that because it's so far in the future. Let's say three months from now, three months from now, if you employ these small steps on a daily basis, you will be a lot further along than if you try to do these drastic lifestyle overhauls that will only stick for about three weeks.

or not fully appreciate how difficult or how uncomfortable or how unpleasant a future situation will be when currently we're feeling great. So when it comes to dieting, for example, let's just say New Year's resolutioners, because that's a really popular thing. A lot of times when, you know, January 1st rolls around, you have a lot of people saying, yes, this is the year I'm going to get in shape. I'm going to get the weight off. I'm going to keep it off for good. And I'm going to do it in 12 weeks. I'm get the weight off. I'm going to keep it off for good. And I'm going to do it in 12 weeks. I'm going to lose 30 pounds in 12 weeks and keep it off for good. I'm going to go from working out zero days a week to six days a week. I'm going to eat these 12 food items. I'm going to slash my calories by in half. I'm going to start sleeping more, taking care of my health and

really taking things seriously. And they're expecting to do a 180 degree lifestyle overhaul. They say this when they are well rested, well fed, feeling motivated, and they overestimate their abilities to persist through discomfort in the future. So right now then would be considered a cold situation. The future would be a hot situation where they cannot empathize with that future situation, which is why we always, many of us tend to set unrealistic goals. That's why we tend to commit to waking up at a much earlier hour in the morning. And then when that hour rolls around, we're hitting the snooze button over and over and over and over. So that's the hot-cold empathy gap. I think that's one of the biggest mindset pitfalls that people make.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've all, again, we've all been there. We've all experienced that. So what's, what's, are there any other common ones that you've come across? Myths, mistakes? Yes. Let's see.

Interpreting failure, learning from your mistakes. I found that I'm actually writing a blog post on this right now on observations with fat loss clients and what sets the winners apart from those who tend to stumble over and over and over again. And honestly, the main thing, Mike, comes down to how they view failure or mistakes. And, you know, the ones who tend to do well are the ones who very enthusiastically rebound from a mistake and they go, well, that didn't work. Okay. So why did it not work? What can I do better moving forward? And they're very proactive with self-improvement. Whereas those who fail, they just go right out on themselves and how it reflects on their character. It's my fault. They internalized the mistake.

This is a reflection of my character. I'm obviously not cut out for this. Well, if I ate one cupcake, why not eat a dozen? Even though logically it doesn't make any sense. They tend to think in very black and white terms. There's no flexibility. A lot of people talk about flexible dieting, but I actually think that it's even more important to have a flexible mindset when it comes to your overall fitness regimen.

So Carol Dweck is a researcher at Stanford who has done some really important work on mindset over the years. She has a book called Mindset, right? Yes, which is a great read, very easy read. I've read it twice now. I'd recommend it. It's on my list. I haven't read it yet. Yes.

I think you can read it in probably one or two days. Nice. And she talks about growth mindset versus fixed mindset, which is exactly what we just discussed. Growth mindset is where you are growth oriented. You view failure as a learning opportunity. You are excited by challenges. You do not back down when you are faced with a problem you can't initially solve right away and you view talent you you view your ability as something that can be molded and shaped at over the years and whereas with fixed mindset you believe that you are stuck with what you were born with if you were born at a certain talent level that's that's all you get no amount of effort will improve upon that so why

even bother you like these are the these are the people who like the easy a's who will take all the easy classes in school uh just to get the grade who don't actually care about the learning who will not try in class or just in life in general because yeah looking for shortcuts and weird weird tricks to melt belly fat and all that stuff. Right. And they're embarrassed to try. They think that trying means that you're just not that smart to begin with. You shouldn't have to try. And studies have consistently shown that those with growth mindset do a lot better in life, have better life satisfaction, have better jobs, better grades, have better relationships, all that stuff.

And I see it with my clients as well. And when my clients send in their check-ins to me, you can pick up on the general tone of their mood and how their mindset's doing. And the correlation is unmistakable. People with growth mindset are way more enthusiastic. They're less neurotic. They have fewer questions. They, they are enjoying the journey a lot more and they, they tend to catastrope. I can't even say this word. Catastrophization.

Okay. They tend to do that. I haven't heard of it. So I can't, I can't help making. What, what, what is that?

It's when you make a mountain out of Moe Hill. Oh, okay. So like turning, turning something to a, into a catastrophe. So they don't do that. They do of a hill. Oh, okay. So like turning something into a catastrophe. So they don't do that. They do not do that. Yeah, right.

So I mean, that's a good segue into what are, so we've kind of covered some of these myths and mistakes. So what are some of the other things that, now you've coached what, you know, about a thousand people now. Yes. So you've seen a lot. And I know how that is. And we've done thousands of meal plans and worked with tons of people, seen everything. So, you know, everybody runs into the same issues, more or less, if you just kind of generalize. It's not that, at least that's what I've seen, is that people that struggle, it's not that their problems are all that unique. It's not like they're the only ones really dealing with that issue. It's just they're dealing with it differently. dealing with that issue. It's just they're dealing with it differently. And you've touched on a few of these points, but are there any like specific things that you've just, you know, top of mind on what do the winners, what are the people that do well with their diet and with their training and

so forth? You know, what sets them apart from the people that don't? Yes, there's a big difference. The winners tend to, well, first of first of all obviously important thing is hiring the right coach if you decide to do work with a coach because they can really screw you over for the long haul if you're not careful with who you who you work with because there's a thing because concept called the psychology of obedience to authority where yeah the milner experiments where like yes exactly people are told to do ridiculous things by authority they'll do it when we can tell that it's clearly not right even uh questioning our morals we will still do what we're told a lot of the time yeah because we're told to do it by an authority figure which is why i am led to believe that this is why when it comes to i'm hiring coaches who don't have your best

interest in mind and who don't really understand the right way to do things. People who are well-educated and highly intelligent will still listen to them blindly and end up, you know, rebounding really bad later down the road and being completely miserable. Anyway. I mean, unfortunately, I mean, you see that, but just if you can take, it'd be like for a lot of these people, they're not, they may be very well-educated in a certain field or, you know, in certain ways, but in, when it comes to diet and training, they may know nothing. And they're, they're, they're just going, Hey, this guy, I mean, this is why I think this guy or girl is an expert. I'm just going to do whatever they say. I don't even, I don't even know what a calorie is or a macro. I'm just going to, you know, but he's going to tell me what to,

or she's going to tell me what to do. So I'll just do that. So, I mean, I can understand that. Yeah. Well, you know, as a side note, loosely, well, not, well, yeah, very loosely related. I've observed that and I've had a number of conversations with friends about this before. I've observed that the people who are highly skilled in one area of life tend to also tend to be very, very lopsided where they have major deficits in other areas of their life. Absolutely. I've written about that and I've experienced it myself. I mean, you know how it is because if you want to get really, really good at something, something you want to acquire, you want to get skilled enough to, let's say, make a very good living at something,

you're looking at thousands of hours of work. Maybe it's not 10,000, you know, that research has been qualified at least by later research. So, but you're still looking at thousands of hours. You have to obsess over something. So you have to kind of choose to be, we only have so many hours in the day. So you know what I mean? You can't be a jack of all trades if you want to be a master of something. So, you know, I, I, I know I'm not going to say I'm mastering anything, but at least I've experienced that where I've come to my own, like I know a lot about some of these things, but there's a lot of things I just don't know anything about. Like I'm pretty ignorant in many ways. Actually.

I think it's amusing. I don't think it's good or bad. I think that's just amusing. You know, I've got a friend who has a PhD who doesn't know how to open and close Tupperware, doesn't know how to do laundry, simple everyday things.

And you look at that and you think, you think they should know because they have a PhD, but you realize it's a whole different domain. They are not expected to know those things. And yeah, I've observed that in myself as well. And when it comes to fitness, also, you have these highly accomplished people in their professional careers who come to you. They're a lawyer who did this and this and this.

They're doctors, et cetera. And then when it comes to fitness, they just have no, and then you talk to them and they realize you realize they've been doing every single thing wrong for the past 20 years of their lives when it comes to nutrition and working out. Anyway, uh, the winners, winners tend to be so even, okay, let's say regardless of whether or not you hire a coach winners, things they do well, winners are very proactive with their learning and their journey. So even if they do have a coach and they're the coach says, okay, here's what you're going to do with your workout. Here are your exercises, sets and reps.

These are the days you're going to work out, et cetera. Let's just say I were to tell a client, okay, you're going to do barbell rows for three sets of eight with this many seconds for rest. And they don't know what a barbell row is. Or they think they know, but they're not sure. So instead of sitting there emailing me and being like, what's a barbell row? They might go to YouTube first, type it in and be like, oh, that's what it is. I know what that is. And then not have to ask me at all.

Yep. You know, just because they have a coach or they have access to free information, they don't abuse it. And they're still thinking, how can I get the most out of this journey on my own? And they're in the gym, they pay attention to their exercises. They might come back with, let's say I prescribe barbell hip thrusts, three sets of five. They might do that and come back and say, I like this movement, but I didn't really feel it in my glutes so much. What am I doing wrong? Right. So they'll speak up when needed rather than just staying quiet. But at the same time, they don't obsess over the minutia. They don't obsess over the minutia.

Yeah. And what I tell my clients a lot of the time is, you hired me for a reason. You're paying me money. You hired me as your coach because you want me to take over the reins of your workout, your dieting, and your training. Your job is to execute the program. My job is to do the worrying. You hired me to worry for you on your behalf, to do the thinking for you, to create the program. So all you have to do is execute. Do not worry. Do not stress. Do not worry about what kinds of results you're going to see. And I want you to focus on the process itself. That's what they do. The winners, they are more process oriented. They focus on the journey. They let the results take care of themselves. on adhering to the program consistently, which is the priority. Adhere to the program consistently, you will get to eventually get to where you want to be. However, if you obsess over the end goal and try to skip steps along the way, you're never going to get there.

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that a lot myself. Also with a lot of readers, people that, I mean, I have sold and sell a lot of books. So I hear from people every day that they'll go, Hey, I read your book. I liked it. Um, I did exactly what it said for six months and check it out. And now I'm 35 pounds lighter and I've doubled my strength across the board. That's awesome. That's great. They were not necessarily aiming for those specific numbers.

And I don't know about you, Mike, but you know, what I've noticed is that a lot of people try to set weight loss goals or specific body weight goals where they want to gain a certain amount of weight or lose 20. They want to weigh 120 pounds. Why? I don't know. It's arbitrary, but they are so fixated on achieving a certain number. And I just, I had to write, I wrote a blog post about this not long ago on how, you know, relying solely on scale weight can be very misleading. And especially when you throw resistance training into the mix, everything with body weight changes. And so I have to constantly teach people how to detach themselves from the scale weight, which is not to say that it's not important. I think it is important and can be a very valuable tool and it provides important data. But to rely only on that

and to ignore other indicators of progress, body circumference measurements, progress pictures, strength in the gym, quality of life, things like that would be misguided. And the, the, those who do well are not married to a body weight goal. They go, well, um, let's say, let's say you're doing a bikini competition. I'll use myself for an example. When I, uh, two and a half years ago, I wanted to make my comeback onto the bikini stage after having taken a number of years off. And I, at the time I was five to 124 pounds. And I hired my coach who was a friend of mine. And I said, here's where I think I will end up on stage. What do you think? He goes, yeah, that sounds about right. I go, okay,

this is, this is my expectation in my head, but I'm going to be very flexible with it. I may end up right on, you know, right at 102 pounds, which is what we had predicted. I might be a few pounds over. I might be a few pounds under, but it just gives me a good ballpark general area just to know what to expect. Yeah when you because you kind of know your body if you've done it before so right and i'm like okay it looks it looks like i have about this many pounds of body fat to lose and okay so anyway over the next six or so months uh so i restrict i dieted actively dieted for four months but before then i had kind of lost weight on my own without really trying yeah which is a whole other topic. I had lost about eight pounds on my own without actively trying to diet. And then, so I did a 20-week structured prep.

And I came in on stage at 105 pounds or 106 pounds. Anyway, I was thrilled with my look because it was the leanest I had looked in a really long time. I did not get to my predicted goal weight of 102 pounds but that was more than fine because on the bikini stage in everyday life people don't look at you and judge your physique based on your body weight they they see what they see it's how do you actually look um aesthetically yeah and that's the point because i get people that write in all the time asking especially uh, uh, I guess both guys and girls that are, that are new to weightlifting and usually have quite a bit of fat to lose where they're trying to set that. Like, so,

you know, I, I just, what should my, what should my goal weight be? Or they'll come with some number in mind. And I, so I know exactly what you mean, right? I tell them, look, let's just go by how you look in the mirror and then let's see what that is for you. We could say that, you know, okay, the look that you want, if the guy, okay, sounds like you want to be around 10% body fat. So you have abs and blah, blah, blah. Okay. So the girl, maybe you want to be around 20%. So we can say that is, uh, at least that's a little bit better of a metric than just straight body weight. But, and I totally agree that just learn, I mean, that's part of learning your body too,

really is how do you look at different weights? Do you like that? Then, okay. If you don't, then change it. Right. And then, you know, I tell people all the time, you, when it comes to physique goals, it's fine to set a body weight goal, but don't be married to it. Rather, you want to set a target look. At the same time, I find myself saying this more to women than men, because women tend to, you know, they, one, they they have less muscle mass to begin with. And two, they have a harder time building muscle mass. And oftentimes, where they are now versus where they want to be with their end goal physique-wise, you can't get there with one round of fat loss. Sure.

You can't get there with one round of building muscle or you can't get there in the timeframe that they want. Definitely, yeah. with one round of building muscle or that you can't get there in the timeframe that they want. So, you know, what's funny, I, when I first started my fitness journey, almost nine years ago now with my weightlifting journey, I, um, was at five to one 10. And so I'm actually nine years later. I'm again, I'm one nine ish now. So I'm essentially the same body weight, but my body comp is completely different, um, because I've been lifting for nine years. Anyway, but at the beginning, I thought, so I first discovered lifting weights when I came across an oxygen magazine at the grocery store. And I saw the magazine cover. I don't remember who was on the cover, but, you know, there's the fit, muscular fitness model, lean, feminine, very athletic.

And I became obsessed because that was the first time i realized that you didn't have to be a professional athlete to look that way yeah yeah yeah so i remember having a similar moment i was like like i could look like that really right and but here's the thing i thought i could get that look in six months i thought that was i go that's that seems realistic to me to get that you know the cap delts and the big quads. And here I am nine years later, I'm a bikini pro. Cause I just could, you know, I don't have it. I, I've been lifting heavy and hard for nine years and I, I don't, I don't have cap delts. And I always joke that even now I don't even look like I lift when I'm fully closed. And, uh, which is, that's just, that's just cause you stay lean. Like that stays lean barely looks like they lift unless they're just freaks or on drugs.

Right. And I say all the time, I'd rather be lean year-round and be a little bit less muscular and a little bit not – just not quite as strong as I would like than to fluctuate 20, 30 pounds throughout the year. I've done that before. It's not fun. It's not fun at all. pounds throughout the year. I've done that before. It's not fun. It's not fun at all. You just get to that point where you just hate eating the amount of food you have to eat. And I totally know how that is. Yeah. And so at the time, I didn't realize how... No one talked about

the time. They thought you just... If you work hard, you'll get to where you want to be. And I realized now, you know what? Genetics actually matters. People don't want to talk about it, but it absolutely matters. It determines your potential for getting muscle, for getting strength, all those things. And, you know, I've known women who have been lifting for one year and they're more already more muscular than I am. And that's genetics. It's not, I mean, or, or drugs if, but if you know drugs aren't involved then yeah right and it's and it's sad because people develop these egos they go well i'm more muscular than you because i've been working harder than you and that's that's not the i work you know we were people

with subpar genetics or very average genetics work a lot of times work just as hard as those with elite level absolutely genetics and it's just the way that it works out. We don't have control over our genetics and they just happen to do better than us. So anyway, that was a great, Greg Knuckles wrote a good article on that for anyone listening. If you go to strength theory and like go to search Google strength theory, genetics, whatever. I think, I think he wrote it. I think that that's where I saw it was a good article on it. Cool. Yeah. He's a great guy to follow. Yeah. So let me, so let me throw this out there as obviously here's a, here's a common issue that anybody that has tried to diet down and get lean has run into.

So how do the people that do well, like deal with specific things? Like for instance, just slipping up on, on diet and eating too much for a day or eating stuff that they weren't supposed to eat or missing workouts. You know what I mean? You talked about this earlier, just in that, like the growth mindset versus fix, but are there any specific behaviors that you've seen, even ways that they look at it, like what their attitudes are, their perspectives on making mistakes? Yeah. So remember before I mentioned briefly the black and white mindset and how those who struggle have a very fixed way of thinking. It has to be

this extreme or that extreme. There is no middle ground. And the thing is, and it seems backwards, is navigating that middle area, what I call the gray area, that's moderation. Moderation is really difficult. And two years ago, one of my clients said this to me, and it stuck with me ever since she was submitting a check in was just talking about, you know, general behavior change, she goes, extremes are easy. Moderation is so freaking hard. It's true. And I'm like, man, I just had a lightbulb moment. And I then I go, that's completely true. Moderation is hard. But those who are willing, I think I think that's especially true. Moderation is hard, but those who are willing.

I think that's especially true with people, even like, because you have a lot of people that come to you and that come to me pretty, a lot of people are fairly motivated to do what they want to do. So it's just, there's that desire to just go all in and thinking that it's either, it's on or off. It's yes or no. It's black and white either you're doing every either you're fully on and you're fully into it or you're fully off and fuck it you know what i mean right and they think if you're gonna do it you might as

well go all out yeah and if you and then if you're not able to go all out then you know what's the point and unfortunately i think this is a lot of a lot of it seems to just happen subconsciously it's like it's like you necessarily think those things. It just, there's something going on behind the scenes. Right, exactly. And I find that the people who tend to do well, they don't bounce from one extreme to another. Rather, they fluctuate a little bit within the moderation area.

So let's say we have one extreme is from a scale of one to 10. We have one is one extreme is one is like, you know, completely sedentary lifestyle. Your diet is full of nutrient devoid foods. Your calories are through the roof. You're just not living a healthy lifestyle. Then you have 10, which is the opposite extreme. You're working out too much. You're not giving yourself enough rest. You're not eating enough calories. You're eating like five different foods a day. That's it. You have no social life. You feel like crap, etc. So you have 1 to 10. A lot of people who struggle in yo-yo diet, etc., they tend to bounce from 1 to 10 throughout the year. They go 1, 10, 1, 10. People who do well, rather than,

they never even get close to one or to 10. They go more from like, let's just say four to six. You know, so maybe if one day they tend to overeat a little bit, let's say they were at a birthday party or something and they had a few extra slices of birthday cake. Then the next day, rather than crash dieting, they go, okay, they tend to auto-regulate and- Yeah, just eat a bit less the next day, rather than crash dieting, they go, okay, they tend to auto-regulate and Yeah, just eat a bit less the next day. Just kind of back by a little bit. There's no need to starve yourself. They just go, well, maybe I ate 500 extra calories today. So tomorrow I might go for an extra walk, extra 30 minute walk, nothing crazy and skip dessert tomorrow night.

Right. That's it. Other people will look at them and go, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Because I, again, I say, I say that the less you rely on self-control and willpower, the better off you'll be. So for me, I'm always thinking, how can I make this more automatic? How can I make this behavior more automatic? And there's this myth out there that people who stay lean around and who don't fluctuate in weight are always relying on self-control to do the right health behaviors every day. But you've lived this lifestyle for a while now. I've lived this lifestyle for a while now. We can attest to the fact that we're not sitting here grinding our gears every single day. We're not like, oh God, it's so hard to eat this much protein every day.

It's so hard to get in the gym and have a moderate calorie intake. It's what we do now. This is our default behavior now because we've worked to set up these. This is our default lifestyle. We do not rely on extra willpower. However, I will say- In fact, I mean, it gets to the point where it requires willpower to not do those things like you were saying previously right like I'm taking a week off the gym this week because

I haven't taken any rest I mean I've taken a little bit of rest in the last couple months but it's been a while since I've just done no exercise for a week and I was just feeling it's time to chill out so I don't it's fine but it takes more willpower for me to stay out of the gym than continue doing it right so what one thing I will say though is that it's not that, so most of the time you don't want to rely on self-control as your default. However, when there are circumstances where it might behoove you to use your willpower to do the right thing, then the people who are leaner tend to be more effective.

Well, so because in that way you're not as exhausted from constantly fighting yourself. Yeah, right. So yeah, there's that too. So, you know, we can't avoid using willpower all the time. Sure. But you want to minimize that as much as possible. Yeah. So things like... I think it's even ties into decision-making, right? That's like the thing that's repeated over and over. I think it's Zuckerberg. Why? And then Steve Jobs, same thing on like why they wore the same clothes every day or something is because they don't want to waste time making decisions on that stuff. They only have so much mental energy and analytical power. And same thing with food. That's why personally, when I'm dieting, I like to eat the same foods every day. I just don't want to think about what am I going to eat? I have too

many other things to think about. Right. And you know, what's interesting is two years ago, I used to believe and I used to say that when it comes to abstaining from junk food, for example, it's not a matter of not keeping in your home, it's learning how to have a healthy relationship with yourself with the junk food. I've kind of changed my view since then, from the reading that I've done and whatnot. If you have a food available to you, you're more likely to eat it. Sure. That's how it is. And especially if you have a desire to eat said food.

And, you know, my friend Josh Hillis wrote in one of his books not long ago, you're going to eat what you have access to. And I've since said that to my clients so many different times. You're going to eat what you have access to. So if you have junk food in your home, chances are you're going to eat it at some point. So conversely, if you don't have nutrient-dense food in your home, if you don't have eggs in your home, you're not going to eat eggs. Or vegetables or fruit. Right. And I'm at the point now where I would consider myself to be more advanced in my nutrition journey than most people.

I'm at the point now where I can keep junk food in my home and not succumb to it every single night. It's not a problem for me because I especially with one with the flexible dining approach and to just honing my mindset over the years and making that my priority. I don't I'm not at the point where junk food controls me where I obsess over it or have a strong desire for it really. So I'm okay having junk food around the house. But I think for the beginner or someone who's just starting out on their journeys, maybe remove that as an option to start out with. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just a simple, it reminds me of a book called Triggers, which is like Marshall Goldsmith or something, but just talks a lot about environment. And

a lot of people don't realize how many environmental triggers there are that trigger all kinds of thoughts and behaviors. So this is a good example of one of just looking at the box of, yeah, looking at the box of cocoa pebbles or whatever it, that can put, you know, gears in motion that are hard to stop. So why even subject yourself to that? Just while you're cutting, just don't buy the cocoa pebbles. Right. The whole goal with modifying your environment is to make the right behavior the easiest thing to do. Right. I think there's also something we said for managing expectations going in. This kind

of goes back to the moderation point you're bringing up where like, if you go into it, expecting that, and I've kind of include this in my books and talk about whatever, but that don't like expect that you're going to, you're going to slip up on some days, expect that you're going to miss some workouts now. And then don't like already get ready for it now. Mentally. How is that going to feel? How are you going to feel when you overeat on that, on, on that day? Cool. Cause it's going to happen. So just be ready for it. And then from there, you can work out when it does happen, how are you going to respond to it? Work it out right now in premeditation. Premeditate your failure essentially and decide how are you going to think about it and what are you going to do about it so then when it does happen, that can kick in as opposed to panic mode. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Very good. And also have a more long-term view of where you want to be. And, you know, a lot of people, they go, well, I want to do this for 12 weeks. And I go, what about week 13, day one? And then they don't, they haven't even thought that far ahead.

Is there anything, is there anything that your successful clients that you, that comes to mind on that aspect of it and that this isn't just a crash. They're not here to just lose 50 pounds in nine weeks or something. How do they look at it and how do they make it more of a lifestyle, which is the ideal approach? Right. So I tell my clients, my goal with working with you is not to have you stay with me as a client forever. I don't expect you to- Same. That's on my sales page is that I want you to fire me after 90 days. That's actually what I want.

My goal is for you to learn how to do this on your own. And whenever you decide to part ways, which I will take absolutely zero offense to. In fact, I may be slightly excited about that because it means you're going to be more independent. I fully expect you to continue implementing the lessons that you've learned with me. And maybe six months or a year from now, I'd love to hear from you just to be like, Hey, you know, just say, Hey, so he, um, you know, I worked with you this long ago. Here are the lessons you've taught me. Here's what I've done since then. And guess what? Look at me. I've maintained my, my measurements. My life is great. Still. I've gotten this promotion at work. I've gotten this

PR in the gym. And you're right. There's never a time when I'm done learning on my journey. Here are some lessons that I've learned along the way. Here's what I've changed with my program, etc. So I expect my clients to always be implementing lessons and always be paying attention to how they're eating and how they're exercising and how it's making them feel and modifying accordingly because there's never a point. There's never a point when you're done. Yep. And also you could say continuing to educate themselves too. Right, right. And recognizing that there's always more that you can learn. There are always ways to get better. There's never a time that you're going to wake up or

there should never, there should not be anyway. Should never be a time when you wake up and say, oh, I've made it. I'm done. I'm done. I don't need to try hard anymore. I don't need to. Cruise control has activated. cruise control has activated learning is finished right so and those who really learn to enjoy the process and and love what they're doing they're the ones who you know continually continually show up day after day who are like who are excited to make an observation about their eating behaviors or something they do really well yep awesome well i think that's a good place to wrap up. Is there any other major points you think we should cover? I don't know.

Well, I guess I should bring it up. So on a related note, I know some of the listeners out there, when it comes to self-control and willpower, may think of ego depletion, which is the concept that self-control is limited. So, you know, limited resource and the more you use it, the less of it you have. Helps to explain a lot of behaviors, things like why do people tend to cave on their diets at night? Oh, that's because willpower is low, obviously. Why do people tend to get really snappy when they're on a diet? They get really cranky because they're using all their willpower to adhere to their diets.

Yep. It makes sense, right? And a number of studies have shown that ego depletion is a real thing, etc. Earlier this year, kind of shook my world. Earlier this year, registered replication report came out where they tested the ego depletion effect in 23 different laboratories with over 2400 different participants, which is a pretty large number. Yeah, it's good sample size. Yes. Oh, yeah, great. And they replicated one of the self control protocols, one of the most popular ones that they use to test for the ego depletion effect. And they found that the effect size was not that big.

And the authors are now speculating that maybe the results of previous studies have been exaggerated or something. Anyway, they're now calling into question whether or not ego depletion actually exists. I've seen research. When did I first come across this? Anyway, they're now calling into question whether or not ego depletion actually exists. I've seen research. When did I first come across this? I may have come across it in a book called The Willpower Effect. I forget who wrote it.

I read it. Willpower something. Willpower Instinct? That one. Yeah. I think that's – it was either that or the other, the, the, it's just called willpower. Again, I read these books a while ago. I don't remember the name of the authors.

But that, yeah, that like, it may be influenced by how people feel. Like if somebody feels like they're all stressed out and they don't have enough willpower, that alone can be enough to basically, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whereas people that go into something just feeling that, you know, they have a lot of willpower and they're not super stressed about things and they can, they can do it. Oh, um, yes, it's, it's actually, that was, I think Carol Dweck, uh, there was a study that Carol Dweck was a part of it. It said that self-control is limited depending, dependent upon whether or not you believe it's limited. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so, so there's that there's also, if I remember correctly, there's research that indicated that the more you exercise your willpower, the stronger it can become, like a muscle in the body.

Oh, that's right. Kelly McGonigal took that approach. There are a number of different theories that try to explain the ego depletion model. There's the energy model, which says it depends upon your blood glucose levels. There's the motivational model, which says it's not about the blood glucose per se, but about motivation. And then, you know, there are a number of different ones, but with science and things like that, I try not to take a super hard stance. Yeah, of course. Because who knows, I mean, in six months, it might, something else might come out that says, Oh, no, no, no, no, this is, this is, this is definitely true. And then jump on that. And then another one says, oh, well, maybe it wasn't definitely true.

Maybe it's more just under these circumstances. Right. And so now I'm realizing that with ego depletion, we maybe don't have enough evidence right now to say, yes, ego depletion is a real thing. But we also don't have enough evidence to completely reject ego depletion, in fact, just yet. However, here's my issue. Okay. Ego depletion may not exist, but it feels real. Sure. The phenomenon feels real. So how do we explain that? Yeah. Why, why is it happening?

Yeah. Those are the next steps. There's no denying the end of the end of the end of the day. You have, you tend to have, um, less control over your behaviors. You tend to make poor decisions. I think that much is undeniable. Um, pretty much all across the board with just about everyone. Same thing when you're stressed or if you're tired. Yeah, exactly. So I think that the principles of ego depletion can still apply, at least for now, until we know more. The practical applications of the ego depletion effect, I still use with my clients because it still works. But that's just one thing to keep in mind. Yeah. No, that's a great point for people that have dug into this

stuff a bit more because they will have come across that. Yes. And I really, you know, honestly, it was really frustrating for me when that came out because it just, right up until then, it was just so easy. It made so much sense to explain behavior. But, but as we, as we'll come to, to realize, you know, the world is rarely ever explained in such a pretty package. Very rarely does, does it, does the world very neatly fit into,

into a model like that. Yeah. Yeah. Or it's just black and white and you can just say yes or no. Yeah. So hopefully in the, in the, in the next few years,

and actually I might be looking into this as my, as my research topic for my master's thesis is to look further into ego depletion, hopefully get more questions answered. But I mean, there are so many questions out there. Who knows what we're going to learn in the next few years? Totally, totally. Well, awesome. That's great. I'm glad you brought that up. So I think what we should do is wrap up with where can people find you? So, and also what are your, if you have any projects you're working on? Yes. So I'm available just about on every platform. I do not Snapchat, however.

Same, same. I just can't, I can't get into it. I'm just not a social media. Yeah. I think I downloaded it maybe about a year and a half ago, but I never, and then I deleted it. So like people are like, but I have you as a Snapchat friend. I'm like, you do? I don't even, I don't know how I can. Anyway, I've never snapped or anything. So I have everything online of mine is SoHeFit. So my blog, SoHeFit.com, my Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all SoHeFit.

And just so everybody knows, that's S-O-H-E-E. Yes, F-I-T, correct-e yes f-i-t correct well sure and then uh I'm currently so in my first semester of grad school which is a two-year program I'll be pursuing my master's in psychology as it relates to health behaviors as it relates to fitness in general so I will not be I've gotten questions. I'm not leaving the fitness industry. I'm trying to improve upon it from an angle that I think has been grossly overlooked over the years. For sure. Because it's easier to talk about, you know, calories and workouts because I mean, those are a lot more straightforward. Right. So I'm not leaving. I'm very much doing the opposite.

But I have slowed down my business a little bit to make room for school and whatnot. So anyway, I'm pursuing my master's right now. I also just finished writing my first book written with Human Kinetics. It's called Eat, Live, Thrive, which is my brand slogan. Eat, Live, Thrive will be tentatively published next june so june of 2017 will be in bookstores near you and thank you and i and i um i most you know when it comes to social media i'm most active on instagram and i talk about my book i'm very open with my journey i just you know i over the past several months i'll say you know i just

finished taking all the pictures for my lower exercises, just finished my upper body, just submitted my first draft of the book. And so I keep everyone up to date on the progress with that. And I've currently got my first, you know, my official photo shoot for the book in December, and all that stuff. But that's my next big project. But until then, I don't think I'll be I'll be working on any other projects in the meantime. What? You have to sleep? What's wrong with you?

Yeah. How amazing would it be if you didn't have to sleep? I actually need more sleep than anyone I know. I sleep about nine, 10 hours a night just to feel fully functional, which is highly inconvenient. And I know I sleep about nine, 10 hours a night just to feel fully functional, which is highly inconvenient. And, you know, I, I, I, I've tried getting by on less sleep and I, if I get six, seven hours, I'm very, very, very cranky.

And I've always said, do you know how nice it would be to get by on two hours of sleep and feel completely alert in the best food? Yeah. It would change your life. Oh my gosh. It would be great. But at the same time, I also wonder, you know, what if I would just fill that time with more crap? Maybe what if I would just watch more episodes of my favorite TV show? Would that even be worse though if you didn't have to

sleep? I don't know. I wonder that. You know, maybe, maybe that would just make you even more, you know, satisfied in that you can do all your work and watch all the TV shows. That would be nice, but I don't think I'll ever get to that point where I get to experience that. Maybe aliens will come. Maybe that's what they're going to do for us. Maybe. Okay, great. Cool.

So you have the book coming out. People can find you at SoHeFit.com. And I highly recommend that you go check. And you also do quite a bit of podcast interviews and so forth, so people can find all kinds of stuff out there. Yes. I, myself, have been following your really since the last time we spoke. So I recommend that everybody go and follow Sohi. She's good. Awesome. Thanks for having me on again,

Mike. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for taking the time. Hey, it's Mike again. Hope you liked the podcast. If you did go ahead and subscribe. I put out new episodes every week or two where I talk about all kinds of things related to health and fitness and general wellness. Also head over to my website at www.muscleforlife.com where you'll find not only past episodes of the podcast, but you'll also find a bunch of different articles that I've written.

I release a new one almost every day, actually. I release kind of four to six new articles a week. And you can also find my books and everything else that I'm involved in over at muscleforlife.com. All right. Thanks again. Bye.