Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - What Are the 3 Best & Worst Nootropic Supplements?

Episode Date: December 29, 2017

In this episode I interview Kurtis Frank about one of his favorite topics, nootropics, or “brain boosters.” Chances are you don’t know of Kurtis, but you probably know of his work. He’s the co-founder of Examine.com, which is the premier resource on the Internet for learning about the science of supplementation. Today, it boasts guides on over 500 supplements containing over 41,000 scientific citations, and Kurtis was responsible for researching, compiling, and writing the vast majority of that body of work. Kurtis also just recently became the Director of Research for my supplement company Legion Athletics, and I’m really excited to have him on board because he’s simply one of the most knowledgeable people I’ve ever met on the subject of supplementation, and in this interview, he’s going to share with us his insights on nootropics generally, as well as his favorite and least-favorite options and why. So whether you’re a die-hard noot fan, on the fence about them, or completely ignorant, I think you’re going to find this discussion interesting and helpful. Here’s a little sneak peek of what you’re going to learn in this episode… - The three most important functions that every good nootropic should perform. - The problems with many of the best-selling nootropics on the market, and what you can do to avoid them. - How your lifestyle habits affect brain grown, cognitive performance, and mental health. - The best three nootropics for supporting brain health long term. - The worst three nootropics for brain health (they’re some of the most popular). 6:00 - What are nootropic supplements and are they safe? 7:03 - How do nootropic supplements promote brain growth? 8:48 - What lifestyle factors affect brain growth? 12:20 - What are your favorite nootropic supplements? 12:41 - What is bacopa monnieri? 14:18 - What are the side effects of nootropic supplements? 15:57 - What is agmatine? 21:58 - What is fucoxanthin? 23:23 - What is spirulina? 25:10 - What is Gilbert’s syndrome? 27:55- Whatr is alpha GPC? 38:51 - What nootropic supplements do you dislike? 46:12 - What is dangerous about nootropic supplements? 47:56 - What is vinpocetine? 49:05 - What is huperzine a? 53:30 - Where can people find your work? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

forgetting something in working memory before you put into short term that's what back up helps and ideally if the mechanisms that back up works on are maxed out you will have what is known as steel trap memory the ability to look at something and be able to remember it without any effort. Hey, it's Mike with Muscleful Life and Legion Athletics back with another interview episode of the podcast. And this time I interview Curtis Frank about one of his favorite topics, which is nootropics or brain boosting supplements. Now, chances are you don't know of Curtis. You don't know him by name, but you probably do know of his work. And especially if you care about supplementation, because Curtis is the co-founder of examine.com, which is a website. Again, if you're into supplementation and the science of supplementation in particular, you know all about examine, but in case you

haven't heard of it, it is simply the premier resource on the internet for learning about the science of supplementation. And it goes into the deep science of supplementation. And it's also an unbiased resource because it doesn't have any affiliation with any supplement company. It doesn't receive any money from supplement companies. It funds itself through the sale of supplement guides. And just to give you an idea of the scope of Curtis's work, today Examine has long form, in some cases very long form, in-depth guides to over 500 different supplements. And those guides contain over 41,000 scientific citations. And yes, Curtis was personally responsible for researching, compiling, and writing the vast, vast majority of that body of work.

And I'm also excited to have Curtis on the show and to introduce him to all of you because he recently became the director of research for my supplement company, Legion Athletics, the director of research for my supplement company, Legion Athletics, which has been hugely beneficial to us because he is simply one of the most knowledgeable people I've ever met and probably will ever meet on the subject of supplementation. And in this interview, you're going to get an idea as to why I say that, because Curtis is going to share with us some of his many insights on nootropics generally, as well as his favorite and least favorite options and why. So whether you are a diehard noot fan or on the fence about them or just completely ignorant and don't even know what

I'm talking about, I think you're going to find this discussion interesting and helpful. This is where I would normally plug a sponsor to pay the bills, but I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine, specifically by flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef. Now, this book has sold over 200,000 copies in the last several years and helped thousands of men and women get the bodies they really want, eating the types of food they really love, which is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average. So if you want to know how to build your best body ever without having to follow a boring, bland, overly restrictive bodybuilding diet. a boring, bland, overly restrictive bodybuilding diet. And if you want 125 of my personal favorite recipes for building muscle, losing fat, and getting healthy, then you want to pick up The

Shredded Chef today, which you can find on all major online retailers like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo, and Google Play. Now, speaking of Audible, I should also mention that you can actually get the audiobook 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account, which I highly recommend that you do if you are not currently listening to audiobooks. I love them myself because they let me make the time that I spend doing stuff like commuting, prepping food, walking my dog, and so forth into more valuable and productive activities. So if you want to take Audible up on this offer and get my book for free, then simply go to www.bitly.com slash free T-S-C, and that will take you to Audible. And then you

just click the sign up today and save button, create your account. And voila, you get to listen to the shredded chef for free. All righty. That is enough shameless plugging for now. At least let's get to the show. Curtis, I finally got you on the podcast. Thanks for coming, man. Uh, no problem. I had to work work. You made me work for it. Totally. I'm in teams like that. That's why I like you. So, we're here to talk nootropics, nootropics, however you pronounce them.

And I actually didn't realize how freaking popular these things are. We recently released ours and it sold out in two or three weeks. And I've been looking into this website, it's like statista.com and just doing some market research for some new products and stuff. And I came across how big this space is. And I was like, oh, well, I guess that makes sense. And then look at Google Trends, like, oh, well, I guess that makes sense. And so I thought it'd be great to get you on to break down what these compounds are and what they aren't. And what are the ones that are fairly well established in terms of safety and efficacy? And what are the ones that are kind of in the gray? And what are the ones that are in the red? Because I get asked about it fairly frequently. So I figured why not bring the mega expert on,

the mega expert of everything supplementation. Oh, that's a compliment. So first, I just want to elaborate that a lot of people look at nootropics. I'm just going to say noops from now on because it's kind of cute to say noops. But the entire genre of noops was based upon the fact that it's stuff that affects the brain. It is somewhat growth promoting and protecting, and it is safe. Now, I want to mention those three things. That's what a neurotropic is.

Growth promoting, safe, and just it makes you a little bit better each day. Amphetamines are not neurotropics. And I just use amphetamines are not neurotropics and i just use amphetamines because it's a blatant example because there are some brain boosters out there that do beneficial effects but they do beneficial effects for the first one or two hours after taking it and they don't actually improve the health of the brain over long term and you can use them every now and then and they do have benefits. Like technically speaking, I wouldn't call it caffeine, a neurotropic, but people use caffeine before studying and it works

out well. So in a way, neurotropics are kind of like the multivitamins of the brain and other stuff are more like the pre-workouts of the brain to take them on an as needed basis. That makes sense. And when you say promoting growth, what does that mean exactly? Just in case people are wondering. Generally speaking, all cells in the body will have a certain rate of decay and a rate of regrowth. And if you're in a healthy state, these rates match each other. So they just, you know, balance each other out. But if you supply enough nutrients and compounds to the brain so that it encourages growth, but not in an excessive manner, then whatever you study, you'll signal to the brain is like, we're doing this thing now.

We need more of these neurons and more of the signaling pathway. And then your body will be in a state of which it can readily adapt. If it's not in that state, then you get to the point where you try to do something over and over again and it's just not clicking like for an entire year it just never clicks but if we think back to our like times as teenagers we could very much look at something research it and it clicks within a day or a week and that's because the brain is in a state where it's able to just create new neural pathways to facilitate what the body is trying to do. And neurotropics, in theory, should provide the basis so when you go and venture to something new, you have the stuff in your body ready to support that. And is it just that that naturally declines with age or is it more of a lifestyle thing? Is it a bit of both?

Definitely a bit of both. I'm one of the few people who says like literally the entire topic of age is probably just a side effect of lifestyle, but you can literally never hit 100% on lifestyle. You can only hit like 90% at best. So obviously it's going to be 10% decay over time. So technically speaking, it's all lifestyle, but you just can't 100% prevent it as you grow older. And what in terms of lifestyle, what are the big factors? Generally speaking, not having any nutrients of which benefit affect the brain or at least having

subpar amounts like fish oil beneficially affects the brain, but some people just don't have fish in their diet, never supplement fish oil. And while the body does have mechanisms in place to counteract this, to make their own EPA and DHA just in case, the body doesn't necessarily want to do that to perform at optimal levels. Furthermore, there are many things we do in our lives, stress, alcohol, cigarette usage usage just any sort of recreational drug aside from maybe lsd but that's the topic for another day a lot of these stuff gives you a short-term benefits at the cost of long-term neurological health and while if you just have like alcohol for a week whatever you won't feel it after about 10 or 20 years it definitely starts hitting and uh how does activity level does exercise plays a role in this too or just physical activity uh generally speaking uh like

in ascend we use bacopa because bacopa stimulates neurons to produce growth factors bdnf and ngf in particular and these factors like this is not 100 correct so don't quote me on this, but the general idea is that BDNF and NGF to neurons is kind of similar to testosterone to muscle tissue. As long as it's floating around, it's going to encourage things to grow. So wait, there are steroids in Ascend? No, I'm kidding. Oh yeah, totally not. Weak steroids, also legal and all that. oh yeah totally not weak steroids also legal and all that but yeah like the entire thing is exercise itself releases bdnf and ngf a bit and it just like sort of pumps the blood around just

because generally speaking if you stress a neuron it's going to try to destroy itself it's going to fail and then it's going to repair itself stronger than before. It's kind of like muscle tissue, except neurons don't grow like in mass size. So you can't see the changes. But ultimately speaking, it's the same sort of idea. And by exercising, you can get more of those growth factors. And when the neurons get destroyed, but whatever means you just have more things there to help the neurons grow back once again. You know, and I think that your take on, and maybe I'm wrong, is a little bit different. At least it's a little bit different than what I see out there with quite a few different newts that are on the market where, you know, use the analogy of a multivitamin for the

brain. And I really liked that. And that's why obviously we have it in the copy. And I think that that's like a core selling point. And we kind of actually crafted the whole pitch around that concept, which I really liked. I actually prefer that more to what I've seen more of. And again, this is something you've seen a lot more. So maybe I just got a biased sample size. is more people trying to sell their newts as pre-workouts than multivitamins,

as acute stimulants that are going to be something like Limitless than something that is going to slowly but steadily increase your brain health and your brain development over time and deliver accumulative benefits as opposed to take this and your brain's going to get jacked. And is that like, I'm just curious on your take on, because that also kind of comes, I guess, it kind of segues into some of the things that are out there that meet that criterion for you, which would be, I'm assuming like, if you want to start with, what are the few of your favorite newts that fit that context and that provide efficacy as well as safety and then we can probably get into some grays and then

some ones that you don't like and why okay so uh for this topic i'm just going to preface before everything i mentioned whether it's an acute benefit or a long-term one the norotropics i like the most uh first and foremost uh bacopo monnieri which is included in the send and it's just because it's a herb like it's literally a swamp herb from india it doesn't sound like something that'd be like all scientific or held up to pharmaceutical standards but it is and you just put it in people's mouths you wait a month because it literally takes a month to work. And after a month, the whole, how do you say it? Short-term forgetting is reduced. So if you're just sitting at a desk or whatever,

you're looking at a bunch of stuff, you see five data points and you think, I understand these five data points. And then you look away and all of a sudden, I don't know anything. That's short-term forgetting. Like forgetting something in working memory before you put it into short-term, that's forgetting something in working memory before you put into short-term,

that's what Backupla helps. And ideally, if the mechanisms that Backupla works on are maxed out, you will have what is known as steel trap memory, the ability to look at something and be able to remember it without any effort. Backupla is not that strong, but it helps towards that same effect. Backup was not that strong, but it helps towards that same effect. It works in youth. It works in both men and women. It works in those who have some instances of cognitive decline. You just put it in your mouth and it works.

And for neurotropics, reliability is the one thing that we need the most. The only real issue with backup was that for some people, they say it's sedentary. Some people, they say it's sedentary. Some people, they say it's stimulating. There's a little bit of variability when it comes to just how you feel after putting it in your face for the first time. But at the end of the day, it helps with working memory and preventing you from forgetting things.

And anything in the way of side effects that are common? Intestinal side effects, I guess because it's related to being, it's swamp swamp herb really there are i'd say about 10 of users if they take it on an empty stomach they're going to have cramps and maybe diarrhea from it it is best like it's absorbed better with food but just for side effects as well definitely take with a meal to prevent that so i mean that's that's that's easy enough yeah but that's pretty much the only side effect that we know of right now it is also under research when it comes to drug drug interactions so if you want an orotropic to benefit your grandmother who's

already taken five pharmaceuticals we cannot confirm at this moment in time that bacopa is safe it probably best stick to blueberry for that interesting and why why blueberry uh blueberries confirm safe like if you put blueberry in the diet of somebody on a bunch of pharmaceuticals it just doesn't seem to interact with any drugs well sure but what's the what's the similarity in terms of the effects in the oh it it also increases a bdnf so it's one of those uh passive growth promoting compounds and the only reason we don't have it in ascendant because it's expensive as a supplement yeah so and obviously it's not the blueberry for anybody listening blueberry itself is not expensive expensive to get it

standardized to get what you really want which is anthocyanins oh yeah yeah and like you could also get the benefits of blueberry for uh cognitive health if you had 250 grams fresh blueberry a day, but that's going to run you about $6 to $7 a day. At the very least, $3 a day. That's pretty high. Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. So that's Bacopa.

What's number two for you? Agmatine. It's hard to really get all my thoughts on agmatine is it's hard to like really get all my thoughts on agmatine across but it may be the most important supplement in the next decade but it's a strong statement that's why how come because the opioid epidemic just the heroin epidemic so at this moment in time what we know about agmatine is that it is its own neurotransmitter the pre-workout supplement l-arginine actually turns into agmatine in the body, but at a controlled rate. If you were to supplement agmatine,

then what we find when it comes to opioid signaling is that, first of all, opioids become more effective, which means that for any sort of pharmaceutical intervention, you can use less of the opioids to get the same effect. Beyond that, opioids have less side effects while you're using them. And if you're going through opioid withdrawal, it doesn't hurt you as much if you have agmatine in your body. Furthermore, agmatine by itself reduces pain perception significantly. And just in general, if you were to give a bunch of agmatine to any medical doctor who prescribes opioids, they could then use agmatine to reduce the hazards of opioids in society and their patients overall, and to help with opioid withdrawal. The only problem is that there's not enough human evidence to prove all these statements, but it is more than enough convincing to at least give it a try given how agmatine does not have any proven side effects right now and do you think that

research will get done it really just needs to become more popular as soon as more people start talking about agmatine as soon as more people start bringing out the idea that agmatine could help with the opioid epidemic the research will follow like i've already mentioned eggmatin to a lot of people just who i've counseled online which honestly in retrospect probably isn't the most valid thing to say but there is at least a dozen people who i've talked to directly who said that they stopped using opioids and while it was still hell to stop using opioids like eggmine doesn't make it amazing or whatever it's a bit easier with agmatine and at this point in time anything that makes just a wee bit easier is going to be acceptable absolutely and what about agmatine in terms of its nootropic

effects oh it just protects cells that's pretty much like it goes into every cell it just kind of rests there and when the cells go and undergo stress agmatine is like not as much stress it reduces it a little bit furthermore it has some signaling properties of which would reduce aggression and increase judgment if anyone listened to this has taken yohimbe and experienced side effects yohimbe of which include reduced judgment increased aggression increased irritation agmatine is basically the opposite so when it comes to just like beneficial side effects it's more of a calmness and increase in judgment but for the most part it's just a standard protective molecule that we could just have floating in our brains and

if something happens it's there to prevent from happening if something bad happens i should say interesting and so if if somebody's looking to because again so if they're looking to either acutely enhance cognition to at least one degree or another or to improve long-term brain health and brain development how does agmatine fit into that exactly obviously that's that's not the acute, it's more the latter. Yeah, can you just quickly break that down? Yeah, I would say that don't put too much faith into agmatine for short-term effects, but be just aware that it could induce a state of calmness, reduced irritation, increased judgment. Again, the studies are not there to prove this it's just plausible

it could happen it will increase like just general health over the long term but for the most part agmatine is not a norotropic that unless you have like an opioid dependency habit it's not something you should intentionally seek out it's the type of thing that if it happens to get into your supplement that you're using all the better and that's why you included it in ascend right pretty much like in ascend we needed at least one compound that had protective effects and agmatine just you know if there's an opioid user out there who wanted norotropic and they also wanted to stop using opioids then slipping them in the agmatine is both safe and could potentially just change their lives. And there's no other nor protective agent that really spoke out to me as much as

agmatine. Interesting. Hey, quickly, before we carry on, if you are liking my podcast, would you please help spread the word about it? Because no amount of marketing or advertising gimmicks can match the power of word of mouth. So if you are enjoying this episode and you think of someone else who might enjoy it as well, please do tell them about it. It really helps me. And if you are going to post about it on social media, definitely tag me so I can say thank you. You can find me on Instagram at MuscleForLifeFitness, Twitter at MuscleForLife, and Facebook at MuscleForLifeFitness. So now what's number three? What's the next one on the list of green light?

Are we talking about things that have human evidence behind them or can i just get crazy with the recommendations here up to you i'm just this is this is what are the three newts that you like the most and why uh spirulina your your your favorite like is this your favorite is this your favorite supplement period uh spirulina garlic berberine egmatine and fucoxanthin are my top five and all for stupid reasons all into one we'll just we'll just call it uh the curtis no not even that because have you noticed like i just mentioned my top five supplements and creatine wasn't even in there these aren't supplements that work they're ones that are just super interesting to me i'm just

going to like take him one minute to ramble on fucosanthin, which is included in a triumph on the sole basis of I love FUCO. It's just great. It's basically a fat burner. It's carotenoid, like vitamin A or beta carotene. And it literally just goes into a fat cell. It stays there for like 10 to 12 days. And it just increases the amount of fat that is lost inside that cell. and it just increases the amount of fat that is lost inside that cell.

To have a fat burner that is non-stimulatory and stay in a fat cell for so long is just incredible. The only problem is that it's really weak, and even though if it sounds like it stays in a fat cell for 12 days causing fat loss, it's probably not that strong. And it's really interesting to me because we technically have studies saying that it caused over like 20 pounds of fat loss in a month there are heavily biased studies that i wouldn't put much faith into them but technically they're there and also fucoxanthin is a brown pigment it's literally the color brown and there's a study that they thought that fucoxanthin turned white adipose tissue into brown adipose tissue but quite

literally they were looking at the adipose tissue and went yep this is brown and then two years later it's like wait fucoxanthin's brown oh damn it oops like that that actually happened like it was just hilarious that must have been a big comedown yeah like it happens every now and then but it's memorable but anyways like going back to spirulina the uh main thing that i have with spirulina is that literally everybody i've recommended spirulina to like it's cheap it's safe it tastes like shit and yes it does taste like shit for anybody that hasn't tasted it just pick up uh pick up a bottle of genesis and i think we've done a good job making it taste decent um and then though so taste that and then just get some pure spirulina powder and compare yeah it's like pure

spirulina is basically wet grass that has some glue in it because you just like you eat it it's like oh what grass you spit it out and the spirulina is like no i'm sticking to your taste buds for the next 10 minutes. Deal with it. It's a supplement you need chase for. But yeah, like anyways, just everyone I've recommended to take at least five grams of spirulina a day. They're just happier. Just a general increase in contentment, subtle increases in cognition, nothing to write home about. write home about but overall like if i recommend five grams to 10 grams spirulina a day people report that they just feel and are better than before and they can't really pinpoint why they feel or are better but almost all of them say that they are why is that like how does it work

the thing is with spirulina supplementation like we have quite a few studies on it most of the studies are somewhat lackluster or poor quality but it shows that spirulina is potent on various things like reducing liver fat spirulina is great at that reducing inflammation spirulina is great at that increasing immunity which should not happen with an anti-inflammatory spirulina is also great at that and it's also theorized that uh it could promote longevity like have you heard of gilbert's syndrome at all okay so gilbert's syndrome is the best disease to have gilbert's syndrome is a syndrome that not many not too many people have and it's due to having increased bile acids floating around in the blood but when you look at people with gilbert syndrome and compare

them to people without any disease states people with gilbert syndrome has lower rates of obesity lower risk of cardiovascular mortality lower rates of diabetes increased mobility in older age and like five years at minimum increased lifespan so it's more like it's it's not a disease it's like a it's like an enhancement yeah it was thought to be a disease until they realized wow everything is better under the situation and spirulina's main component c-phycocyanin is a bile acid mimetic it works as bile acids should and is thought to replicate the state of gilbert syndrome so it just does everything to a moderate or minor degree and it does it well and yeah like everyone i've recommended it to just felt a lot better they did more things they

were happier doing those things and that's the entire point of a nootropic you don't want to take something put it in your mouth say i feel better and then do the same stuff each and every day you want something that encourages you to go out and do new things learn more things and just affect the world more and spirulina has done that for a lot of people i've advised. Yeah. I mean, I can attest to that. I mean, I actually feel, I mean, to be fair, I'm actually thinking more with Genesis. I would say I noticed more of an acute benefits with Genesis. But before Genesis, I used to take five to 10 grams of spirulina every day just as a standard thing. And I mean, honestly, I had taken it for so long long it's hard for me to just you know right off the bat kind of compare before and after but i definitely notice a difference um with genesis and if you ever stop taking spirally and like your nasal spidey senses go away i should also

mention that it is amazing at clearing out mucus from the nose oh wow like like i used to complain a lot that i was genetically inferior because i always had mucus on my nose and now i can smell eternity and what does it smell like it's just uh it smells like everything forever wow but yeah like just for anyone who has allergic rhinitis if they like get a bit inflamed or have alcohol and there's a bunch of mucus in the nose spirulina will be a god sent for you and like forget the norotropic and all that stuff like just to wake up and not have a stuffed nose that alone is worth it yeah absolutely because i you know half the time you're like am i getting sick what's going on yeah and should we should we talk alpha gpc or is that is that on your middle list

uh alpha gpc is a weird one because generally speaking, you want a source of choline. And it doesn't really matter too much what the source of choline is as long as it's in your body. Do you want to quickly just let everybody know what choline is? Choline is a dietary component. You could say it's kind of like a vitamin, but the thing is, if you don't eat any choline, your body will function normally. The definition like a vitamin but the thing is if you don't eat any choline your body will function normally the definition of a vitamin is when you don't have any in your diet you get a disease state from it and the body can manage fine without dietary choline but it likes having some extra in the body so you have the body and it's just floating around and if your body ever needs to

make acetylcholine uh neurotransmitter that mediates both muscle contraction and memory formation then it's good to have a nice amount of choline around so you can make the acetylcholine and so practically speaking how does that play out if you have a very let's say choline deficient diet oh yeah for choline deficient diet then like would you what you probably notice like what would you notice would you notice muscular related things maybe in terms of neuromuscular function i've i've never actually advised anybody who was in a choline deficient diet and had improved neuromuscular function but there are studies showing that you just take some alpha gpc before

workout and all of a sudden your muscles contract better you know we've actually we've actually seen that in some reviews already for uh you've probably seen yourself on ascend which has alpha gpc where people are saying like they've noticed that they've noticed what seems to be a better mind muscle connection is the best way they can put it yeah and honestly like as far as like pro science goes it's a good way to put it like i was actually really quite pleased with that because as soon as i saw the fact that we're selling a supplement for brain health and people were reporting a better mind muscle connection that should occur with alpha gpc i was confident in the fact that the people who are making our supplement like putting

it in pills and saying it's alpha gpc they're honest because that's not a common side effect no one should report that as a placebo effect so when people on mass report better mind muscle connections it pretty much shows that it is alpha gpc in there so that was like it was reassuring absolutely and just for anybody listening wondering uh about that one of the major problems in this space is even if you want to be honest and if you want to make and sell good products, you can get screwed by manufacturers. So you can go to a manufacturer and say, please make this product for me. Here are all the ingredients. I want them in these doses.

In some cases, I want these very specific, standardized, more expensive, maybe even patented ingredients. And they go, oh, yeah, sure, sure, no problem. standardized, more expensive, maybe even patented ingredients. And they go, oh yeah, sure, sure. No problem. And then they just make you a pile of shit, which of course allows them to pad their margins or in some cases extravagantly increase their margins. And you won't necessarily know because unless you get it tested, you think you're getting what you paid for. I actually, you know, we ran into that with one company. We were looking for a backup manufacturer just because it always... Regardless of how good a relationship you have with your existing manufacturer, it's smart to have a backup.

So there was one company, had every certification, it all looked legitimate. And we decided to do a run of triumph with them. That'd be the first product that we'd try because I think we needed some or whatever. That was what we chose. And oh, I think we also chose it because it's one of the more difficult products to make because it contains so many ingredients. So we told them that we're going to send their product off to Eurofins to get tested in triplicate before paying, before selling. And so I just told them that just to let them know, even though I didn't really have a reason to think they're going to try to scam me, but I just know this industry. And they're like, yeah, yeah, no problem. No problem. They do a small run as their little trial run. I send a few bottles off. It comes back basically just vitamin C. And the CEO was

like, oh, that's not possible. It's really not possible. I'm like, no, fuck you. I don't care. I'm taking Eurofins word over yours. Sorry. Bye. So that's just, you know, that's a reality of the industry. So, you know, choosing your manufacturer is a huge, huge part. And, you know, we're with a company called Capstone, which is one of the biggest nutraceutical producers in the country and good guys. And we pay a premium to be with them. We could actually spend a lot less on our products by going elsewhere. China? I wouldn't.

Yeah, there's that. Yeah, there's raws. There's like, you can outsource raw to China. Or what you can do, what a lot of people do, is get your raws. Not that all raws that come from China are bad. Of course not. But you can get some really bad raws from China. And really bad raws, in some cases cases do tend to, with certain ingredients, as you know, do tend to come from China more than anywhere else, like protein powder, for example.

So if we just wanted to immediately decrease our cost of goods by 20, 30%, I could just go elsewhere and just kind of turn a blind eye and look the other way and not even get my stuff tested. But anyways, long story short, that's a very valid point that it is nice to see. We still get stuff tested. And at this point, I know that Capstone won't screw us. Capstone does whatever we tell them to do, they do, and they do a good job sourcing everything. But it is always reassuring to see it in good evidence with actual end users. i like capstone i did not think i ever would like a manufacturer but they're cool they haven't screwed us over much yeah i mean and even when they do screw us over they apologize and correct it so that's nice exactly and it's that's mostly

been actually supply supply chain stuff when they went through a whole merger that was that was the big screw over other other than that they've made think, one or two mistakes on an ingredient where they didn't source the exact ingredient, but then they found out and fixed it. So on the whole though, it's been a very smooth- They're good guys. Yeah, I agree. Anyway, so with AlphaGPC, cool, that's AlphaGPC. Anything else that is worth sharing on AlphaGPC? Only other thing is that I just want to elaborate that AlphaGPC stands for Alpha Glycerophosphocholine. That just refers to the position that the glycerol is on the phosphocholine or whatever. I completely forget at this moment in time.

And then there's the choline, which is what we actually wanted. That glycerophospho, however, has, how do I say, it's convincing on an in vitro level, but not enough rat or human evidence to prove, but it could potentially also support brain membranes. So it could very well be that compared to other choline sources, alpha-GPC is a one-two punch. We have reliable evidence to say that it has the one punch. We're just hoping that it has the two punch as well. So it could potentially be the best source of choline we don't have the evidence to prove that but as long as we know that it's safe we're going to use it and maybe five years down the road people say oh wow the gp

part actually does benefits and we're just going to sit there all smug is like we knew that five years ago so yeah that'll be you maybe you'll end up running like if spirulina pqq become the best supplements in like the market i'll just be sitting there like on my golden throne laughing at everyone yeah pretty much bitches you said spirulina wasn't didn't have evidence now it does what do you say now and the best thing is like spirulina is like so well researched and so safe too as long as it's made by a good manufacturer if you just like literally go to the sea find some algae which spirulina is scrape it off yeah you you might die there is that potential you wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't i would not advise

eating algae off the top of the sea or or eating random mushrooms in a forest yeah exactly but beyond that like it has been investigated as a alternative protein source for africa like literally think about like from a western perspective how much money western countries want to use to help africa the answer is not much because they have better reasons to use their money. And, you know, honestly, like Lamborghinis and like Rolexes and stuff. International aid is not high up. So a spirulina was tested because it's like it's healthy.

It's super cheap because it's literally algae. You can just like leave it on water and just like scoop of the pond scum and people don't die. you can just like leave it on water and just like scoop up the pond scum and people don't die and people with like kwashiorkor and marisman like protein deficiencies and all manner of health deficiencies spirulina still helps them it doesn't kill them the history of it is just so safe so as long as you like get a company that doesn't give you microcystins like microcystins are the thing where if you make it wrong, they're produced in the spirulina and they can pretty much destroy your liver. So every single company in the West who makes spirulina has like a mandatory clause that was like, we need to make sure there's 0% microcystins in this. And on the condition that they do that safe as hell it's just incredibly

safe incredibly beneficial super cheap everyone needs to take at least five grams a day there it is like you've heard a dr ronda patrick right sure she's pretty much known not only for being smart obviously she is but she's kind of connected her name just you know sulforaphane supplements broccoli extract all sort of cruciferous vegetables and those benefits sulforaphane to her is like spirulina to me it's not something we want our names to be connected to but by god we just believe that would be awesome so yeah just everyone put them in your mouth now together every day i'm not so sure about sulforaphane it's nice but i don't think it's on the whole uh shoving your mouth every day thing like it's definitely not harmful and definitely

not bad and some people may like it but spirulina is the only thing where i just like command random people to shove their mouths it's it's just so good do you do you have a bumper sticker on your car that mentions spirulina man i would color my car the color of spirulina like dark green oh you said it i'm gonna hold you to that uh damn it and then you can you can you can just you can just have like a tub of spirulina everywhere you go and just give it to random people and just just pitch them on it here here take this and the worst part is i have just enough pride to actually hold you up to that. The whole is like, what color do you want your car? It's like, do you have spirulina green?

Spirulina green. You can just like use spirulina to color your car. Because for those of you who have never bought the supplement, it is a die. If spirulina gets on your counter and you don't remove it immediately, your counter is green now. Good luck. It's staying that color. That's a very good point. Yet another use.

Yeah, it's a die. Okay, good. So let's now talk. What's something that is popular that you're not so hot on and why in the newt space? The formulation that you came up with for Ascend is rather unique are you know it has alpha gpc you see that in quite a few newts but surprisingly quite a few it's not unique this is like a little thing i have to mention because i know that at some point dr happy is going to listen into this show and i want to give him a nod i have to give him a nod uh dr happy was a prominent poster on the website longevity apparently he made what he called the dr happy

stack or miss no sorry sorry mr happy stack oh wow he's gonna have my head for that but basically his stack was uridine a cholinergic and fish oil it's a good stack like uridine is a rate limiting thing to help membrane growth fish oil is incorporated into membranes to help membrane growth choline is a like membrane enhancing neurotransmitter but it also stimulates membrane growth it was very much a core component but when i was doing my own research on uridine, back when I worked at Examine, I said to myself, wow, uridine and fish oil and some form of acetylcholine would be great. And I thought I was being unique at this point. So when I started bragging about it, people were mocking me. It's like, that's the Mr. Happy stack sort of thing. But Mr. Happy is a

smart bloke. And I think of myself as a smart bloke and i think of myself as a smart bloke as well and it turns out that that stack the whole uridine fish oil which isn't an ascent because of practical reasons you can't have back up on oil in the same pill without you know hating your life yeah like it doesn't work out there but uridine fish oil and choline is a really good base. And then from that base, you add something like bacopa, which stimulates production because you have all the components in place. Then you add in something that protects it like agmatine. And it's just a really good base position of which you can then get a healthy brain from. And then if you want to take something that is more forceful or stimulatory,

then you can do that. So that was pretty much the basis of how Ascend came to be made, the more multivitamin approach rather than potent agonist. But I will have to answer your question of what is recommended and just seems bad. Yeah, what's popular and that you see a lot of people or seeing a lot of products because you passed over quite a few that are very common in other nootropics. The thing I want to mention first is that the entire nootropic industry is kind of fragmented right now. It's so weird because the US out out of all countries in the world, has the most permissive rules for making dietary supplements.

As long as it exists in nature, you can use it. And if you can't, you are legally allowed to use it until the FDA says no. Like, if you were to take royal jelly, it literally has testosterone in it. Too small to have an anabolic effect, but it literally has testosterone in it too small to have an anabolic effect but it literally has testosterone velveteer antler also literally has growth hormone again too small to have an effect and the fda basically looks at these products says okay you're allowed to sell them as long as it gets to a certain level because as soon as the testosterone actually starts working then you're screwed you're taking that off the market.

But again, like any molecule that exists in nature, we can use in supplements. And yet 60% of neurotropics are synthetics. People are just like, oh, wow, puracetam does not exist in nature. Well, good. Let's just use it in a supplement. Like, why? And why? Because we've been asked why we didn't include that or other

similar compounds yeah because the fda could literally swing in in a second and order us to remove all these products from the market and if we don't we get fined over a million dollars it's just not worth the risk and you think if companies were taking such a risk, obviously it has to be good, right? No. P. rastam is the staple neurotropic. It is quite literally the molecule of which the term neurotropic was made from. And because P. rastam exists, the entire field of neurotropics exists. It was specifically designed to protect the brain without causing any harm whatsoever and to promote growth over

the long term and some people like using it but the thing is when it comes to human studies we have like one study from the 1970s where angry boys in high school were a bit less angry and that's it yeah but give that study to a to a supplement marketer and just wait yeah but like when you say oh this was tested in 1970 and angry boys became less angry it doesn't go over well in market copies so a lot of people just ignore it they just more focus on the fact that pure ass tamil is popular so obviously it has to work of which you know whether or not it works we literally cannot prove at this point in time it's been on the market for over 40 years we cannot prove its

effects yes or no at this point it's weird that's like what a lot of nor tropics are just when the users say something's good or something's bad that's all that matters i mean that drive that drive sales just because of word of mouth. Yeah. But when it comes to like just ethics and morality, you don't want to rely on word of mouth. You want the studies. Absolutely. Like a good example.

This is a I don't know how to pronounce it. A Tianna patina or something like that. And basically, it has a lot of good evidence to show benefits in some people. And I want to emphasize that in some people. Word of mouth does not specify who these some people are so all people take it and it turns out that it could act like an opioid and have opioid withdrawal effects in some people and those people are hurt severely from it and the norotropic community generally speaking doesn't really care about those side effects and like more than any other demographic the norotropic community influences the norotropic producers a lot and the norotropic

community is 80 self-reports from people who think that they are immune to the placebo effect and just say what they want and so the nor tropic community just like you can literally have a 2017 study of a man who synthesized a new form of uridine like i don't know uridine quad phosphate it literally doesn't exist but maybe it could i don't know and it will be on the market 15 minutes later. As the newest, hottest thing. Yeah. It's just like, well, uridine works and this thing's kind of new. So obviously it works better.

Like, do not rely on self-reports from nootropic communities. They just, they're not reliable. What's another gray area nootropic for you? Something that's popular that people that are interested in these things have at least heard of, if not tried, and that you passed on and why? Or if you want to even just go to the other end of the spectrum and what's something you really don't like that you think could even be dangerous? The dangerous thing is how the nootropic community is very closely related to the illicit drug community. community is very closely related to the illicit drug community and a lot of this was connected to the fact that microdosing lsd literally has a lot of benefits like it seems really cool especially when it comes to ptsd if you have somebody who has post-traumatic stress disorder microdosing lsd

once a week could actually help them a lot but because because of stuff like that, people are also ready to recommend illicit drugs for the purpose of enhancing the brain. And it just seems like a cocktail of everyone having illusions of grandeur. Like there's a herb called Polygala tenuifolia, which I am really interested in because it just seems so cool. And the reason it sounds so cool is because if you give it to rats, it will have antidepressant

effects within about 10 minutes in an NMDA-based mechanism that's only ever been seen in history by ketamine, the drug. And this is of cool because uh most times when you look at anti-depression you look at serotonin and dopamine you never look at nmda and this is the first time a herbal has ever potently affected depression in a non-serotonin based manner and yet somehow that has resulted in people recommending that oh you feel a bit sad take ketamine no don't do that ketamine f's you up the only reason polygala is at all interesting is because it doesn't have the psychoactive effects of ketamine what about vimpocetine because that's obviously one that you'll find in a lot of nootropics. Oh, venpostine is harmless, to be

honest. It's a bit silly, but harmless because it started out as a vincomin, an alkaloid found in plants. And then they altered it to venpostamine, which is synthetic. So technically speaking, you can't sell venpostine as a dietary supplement. And I mean, you could argue that it's safe enough, we could, but rules are rules kind of thing. But ultimately, it does seem to improve blood flow to the brain. It does seem to have protective effects. And if you were to randomly have a stroke, if you had been posting in your system at that time, it would do protective effects. It does seem something that seems kind of cool, but it kind of got grandfathered in as a potent

neurotropic and brain enhancer, but it doesn't have much evidence to suggest that it actually increases brain function. It doesn't really make you smarter. It's just kind of like how we use agmatine in a scent just because it's there as a protective factor. Fimbostine is very much a protective factor. It's just one that the FDA could technically ding you on. And what about huperzine? That's another one, obviously, that I get asked a lot about. And it's popular. It's in many, many nootropics.

Like, I don't know. I have a problem with huperzine, but at the same time, respect for it because it works. It's an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor. And every time we've talked about acetylcholine so far we've talked about its benefits acetylcholine esterase is the enzyme that degrades acetylcholine so if you block it like hupazine does you get a relative increase in acetylcholine this will lead to better muscle contractions better learning better memory formation and it will just be a beneficial effect to the brain.

But here's the thing. I want to mention a balance between L-tryptophan and 5-HTP right now. I want to refer to the rate limit. If you put 5-HTP in your body, it will turn into serotonin. It will always turn into serotonin, and you'll get an abnormal amount of serotonin your body goes wait this isn't right we need to have an emergency reactive approach to this and suppress serotonin signaling l-tryptophan does confer to 5-htp but there's a rate limit in the middle much like just if there is a person on the assembly line that determined the rate of production, that would be it. And because he doesn't allow more 5-HTP to be produced than needed, it doesn't get into a problematic area. When we use something like CDP-choline, alpha-GPC, choline-bitartrate, these are all before the rate limit.

And as such, you cannot force an abnormality in acetylcholine signaling. Hooperzine A is after the rate limit and as such you cannot force an abnormality in acetylcholine signaling. Hooper's ZNA is after the rate limit so if you have it in your body all the time it could force an abnormality and there's a common saying what the drug giveth the drug taketh away. The benefits you feel on a drug will be directly opposite the downsides of when you're off the drug during withdrawal. And this applies to Hooperzine A. The issue, however, is that if Hooperzine A was only in your body for one hour, then it would be fine. Have an hour of good study, have an hour after that where you feel kind of like shit, and then just have 22 hours where you feel normal. But Hooperzine A is actually in your body for a good 12 hours or so that's its half-life is 11 hours it is technically in your body for an entire day after you take it so if you take it each and every

day your body will adapt to just have expecting hupazine a in your body 24 7 so then when you stop that one bottle of supplementation for the next month you're in a down phase and if you know this is going to happen it's fine you do you you have decisions over your own body but a lot of times you sell supplements people who don't know about what the drug give the drug taketh away they don't know about withdrawal or they don't expect it to apply to supplements. And dietary supplements with an active dose of Hoopazine A have the risk of harming the person for the month or so after they stop using the supplement. And it's just from an ethical standpoint, you have to give a warning out for that. If you want to use Hoopazine A, go for it. Just be aware that it's one of those supplements

that you take three times a week or so. Not every day. And that's why you left it out of Ascend, right? Just because you felt that the... Yeah. The cons outweighed the pros. Yeah, Ascend is supposed to be the thing you pop in your mouth every day

and have reliable benefit and you don't need to worry about it. But if Hoopaz hubazine was in there you'd need to worry about it a little bit and take some time off ascent which is not what the supplement was designed for perfect okay well i mean i think that pretty much covers everything that we had on our outline is there any anything that we haven't touched on there's probably a lot of things we could discuss like if you're interested just throw a topic across but beyond that no can't think of anything for for round one this is going to be a regular thing i'm going to get you back on and i could talk for days if people are listening we'll do the longest supplement podcast ever we'll we'll do 72 hours just 12 hours that we're just

both random we're going to fall asleep no amphetamines man totally um i i you know i usually i always end you know obviously hey where can people find you find your work if you want to find curtis's work you can find him over at our blog at legionathletics.com slash blog he is writing all kinds of cool stuff over there also curtis who are working on um i mean obviously you know this but so everybody else knows we're working on uh an in-depth supplementation course which is oh it drains my soul it's so drains my soul we're close man we're at every like the best information possible into one document and yet be held accountable for all of that i mean it's gonna it's gonna be good it's definitely gonna be good. It's definitely going to be good.

But, oh, man, it feels like the course shanked me in the back alley somewhere. It just killed me. You're still alive, though. It's going to be good, though. Yeah, and we're close. I know that that one is going to be over to me soon. So we'll be able to wrap that up.

And I'm excited for that just because it's going to be a lot of good information. And anything else, Curtis, that you want to let everybody know. I have to give a nod to examine. Come on. They're my babies. I don't even work for them anymore, but I have to give them a nod. For those of you who don't know, examine was where I first started working and it's examine.com. And it's just a database of all supplement knowledge. And let's put it in perspective. Out of all the technical writing that people can find on examine.com, how much of that is attributed to you? At this moment in time, probably around 95%.

Curtis is examine. Yeah, because I've trained a lot of other researchers. Their literal job is to go over my work and say how it's wrong and fix it. The entire idea of examine is to be an my work and say how it's wrong and fix it the entire idea of examine is to be an updated wikipedia except a ton better on all dietary supplements and i mean obviously legion wants to be accurate as possible which is why i'm here like obviously mike's here as well so yeah two for one kind of deal i bow to you but yeah like you're you're the you're the stuff it's literally my job to book yeah like something's my job yo but yeah like exam is a good database to

look into because if any of you are listening and thinking i like this podcast i like this company but technically it's biased i want another source Go to examine. They like just all the information ever unbiased. If they ever associate with supplement company, I will charge them screaming. Like I, I know where the owner lives. I will yell at him. Yeah,

no, I mean, examine is, examine is a great resource for anybody interested, especially if you really want to dive into the science of supplementation. Damn it. It's the place to go. It gets gets real it gets real heavy real fast um but if you want to get to that level of granularity and detail there's nothing like it i mean there's no other option okay perfect well thanks again curtis i appreciate the time and uh next time what are we gonna talk about next time what the time. And next time, what are we going to talk about next time? What should we do? Next time, like most of our demographic are athletes, right?

Yeah. I would say most of the people are going to be in their early 20s range from the early 20s to mid 40s. And fitness is not their life per se, but they put in a good three to five hours a week in the gym and they focus on resistance training and they take care of themselves and but not necessarily your super meatheads or necessarily your super athletes, you know use in supplements, and horse chestnut that target office workers who have leg swelling each and every day. Furthermore, there's a dietary connection with nitrates and just general, you know, Mike can yell at you for, you know, exercise-related stuff because that's the major determinant.

Perfect. Blood flow. And vitamin K. We can just, like, ordain all of you with vitamin k you will become the acolytes of the church of vitamin k hey we could actually start that that's a thing man we better it's the next vitamin d like if people look at us and scoff like vitamin k is not important vitamin d yeah talk to us in five years we'll see who's laughing then curtis has spoken yeah vitamin k is great my name starts with k it's awesome spirulina pqq and vitamin k uh yeah actually that would probably increase overall lifespan of everyone in the west by five years so yes and the greatest part is if anyone

tries to call me out on that i'll be dead by then but will it will it fall you into the afterlife though? Probably. PQQ has got a long half-life. It binds to, it binds to your soul. It sticks to your bones. Okay. Awesome.

Well, thanks again, Curtis. This was fun and a blood flow. It is next time. We'll line it up. I talk to you later, man.

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