Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - What I've Learned From Selling One Million Books (feat. Noah Kagan)

Episode Date: October 4, 2017

In this episode, I have a meandering conversation with my friend Noah Kagan about various things related to book marketing, productivity, and fitness. In case you don’t know Noah, he was the 30th employee at Facebook, the Director of Marketing for Mint, the founder of Sumo.com and AppSumo.com, and an all-around neat dude with interesting ideas about a lot of things. In this episode, Noah and I talk book creation and marketing and how I plan to go from where I am--about 1 million books sold--to 5+ million sold in the next few years, as well as various strategies for getting in shape and staying productive, including intermittent fasting, how to stay excited about working out, and how to organize your environment to make it easier to stay in shape, and more. Click the play button below to listen and let me know what you think! 3:10 - What is your writing process? 13:44 - What separates you from other health coaches? 16:30 - Do cheat days and binge eating work or does it reverse the effects of working out? 19:16 - What is a good way of incorporating fasting? 27:10 - What's the last thing you've changed in your diet and nutrition? 31:25 - What is sleep efficiency? 36:51 - How do you make your book stand out in the health & fitness space? 41:10 - After receiving feedback, what changes did you make to your original book? 42:27 - What surprises you during the interview process for your upcoming book? 44:09 - What are some of the questions you asked people in preparation for your new book? 46:04 - How do you not get bored with dieting and working out? 52:47 - What is the mentality behind training and exercise? How does this mentality improve your life? 57:01 - How do we delegate what tasks should be given to other employees? What tasks should a CEO have? 1:02:54 - Do you prefer to workout alone or with someone? 1:04:17 - How do you enjoy your time at the gym and make it a second home? 1:07:37 - When's the last time you had a major change of environment that positively affected your life? Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.muscleforlife.com/signup/

Hey everybody, this is Mike from Us For Life and I am back with another episode of the podcast. My voice sounds a little bit funny because I had a cold last week, which is fun. Shared food with my son last Sunday. Didn't notice that he was sniffling and didn't feel so good myself for just a few days, but it was only a few days. So hashtag thankful 365 for that. Anyways, this episode is going to be a bit different than what you're used to. In this episode, I have a kind of wandering discussion with my buddy Noah Kagan about various things related to writing and selling books. As you'll see,

Noah is kind of interviewing me and just asking questions that he has had about my writing process and how I've gone about creating books that have really stood out in their respective niches and collectively sold about a million copies now in the last five years, which is a big number. But I would say that if that were my sole focus, if books were my sole focus over the last five years, I really think that I could have sold five times that number. And that's kind of my goal, just my personal goal for the next, let's say over the next three years or so, I'd like to get that up to 5 million copies. And I'm going to do exactly what I'm going to lay out in this podcast to get there. And I'm very confident, very, very

confident that I can do that by just following the strategies that I am going to lay out in this episode. So if you, Mr. or Mrs. Listener are interested in writing books that sell, I think you're going to enjoy this discussion. And if you're not, you may still enjoy it because we kind of just goof around and talk about various things related to business and marketing that sure, they help you sell books, but they can also help your business in other ways. They can help you sell other things as well. And lastly, this episode is brought to you by me. Seriously though, I'm not big on promoting stuff that I don't personally use and believe in. So instead, I'm just going to quickly tell you about something of mine. Specifically, my 100% natural post-workout supplement Recharge. Recharge helps you gain

muscle and strength faster and recover better from your workouts. And it's also naturally sweetened and flavored, and it contains no artificial food dyes, fillers, or other unnecessary junk. All that is why it has over 700 reviews on Amazon with a four and a half star average and another 200 on my website, also with a four and a half star average. So if you want to be able to push harder in the gym, train more frequently and get more out of your workouts, then you want to be able to push harder in the gym, train more frequently, and get more out of your workouts, then you want to head over to www.legionathletics.com and pick up a bottle of Recharge today.

And just to show how much I appreciate my podcast peeps, use the coupon code PODCAST at checkout and you will save 10% on your entire order. All right, that's it for the shameless plugging. Let's get to the show. Oh, so how do you come up with your content so much fucking better? We were talking about that. Well, one, I would say I really enjoy writing. Like I really do it because I actually really enjoy it. And amongst all the other shit that I do, writing is still, I would say some probably my most favorite work, just research and writing.

So in that sense, like, I don't know, whatever it is, creative expression or whatever. But I actually care to like, I really try to do as good of a job as I can explaining things. I mean, I'm going for clarity and, you know, not beating people over the head with jargon or science. I want people to know that I know what I'm talking about and if they want to go dive into the science, here are links, you can go do that. But first and foremost, I want to explain things in a way that anyone can understand and I want people to come into an article with a burning question in their mind or a problem or something and leave with that question fully answered and or something actionable that they can now do. You know what I mean?

And so I guess like in my previous life, I had a company, small company, few people, and we created employee training programs for random companies we kind of like niched into the health care space which is very random but it's also maybe something I mean I guess I maybe I had a little bit of a knack for it but it was that was kind of a skill set I had to hone because I had to go into I mean it became a bit more formulaic over time as I got more experience but I had to in some cases go into jobs that I didn't know anything about myself and reverse engineer, take someone that is good at the job, reverse engineer, how do they do it? And put that into essentially a training manual that anyone could go through. Goes all the way back to that e-myth shit I was talking about in terms of systematizing and codifying things in a business. So that's, that's training. I mean, that's what you do.

So, you know, I don't know, a lot of it I feel like has been internalized at this point, but, because, because it's at this point now where like, I'll just, I'll write things and through my own drafts and going over where I'll just be like, yeah, that sounds good. And basically it's where when I produce something that I think is good, it tends to resonate well with other people. You know what I mean? I do understand that. And you know that from a marketing perspective. You have so much experience.

You just look at shit. You're like, yeah, that's fucking good. That's going to work. And you don't necessarily run through some checklist in your mind. You're just like, yeah, that's it. You know what I mean? So you were saying you do have some type of process that you go through? I mean it's – so if I were to like try to reverse engineer it, I would say one thing that's very big is, as you've probably noticed, is I like to teach on a gradient of like very simple things first.

So even if that means we have to define terminology and get some basic, you know, fundamental understanding before. So like somebody might come into an article wanting to know about this thing, whatever that is, but to really, and if I were to say, if they were to ask me the question, how do I do blah or whatever, if I were to give them the one paragraph, here's your answer and not, you know, just, just say, there it is. They wouldn't like, they wouldn't understand it. They wouldn't understand the context. They wouldn't understand why. So they wouldn't necessarily buy into it. And they might not even understand how it works. If I just tell them what to do, that's just the what, but not the why or the how. Right.

So I try to then, you know, stretch all that out and say, okay, so if, uh, when somebody comes to the article, um, what's the one thing that they need to really take away from this? Um, okay, so if, uh, when somebody comes to the article, um, what's the one thing that they need to really take away from this? Um, and, and, okay, so I have that now, how, what do they need to understand to understand that? And let me break that down to like, and again, that's where personal, uh, you know, judgment comes into play in terms of like how to, to how far do I want to work this back? And what are like, what do they really need to understand and what can be communicated in two to 3000 words, as opposed to like 15,000 words, like Greg Knuckles, for example, a lot of his stuff is very long and very dense. Um, and so

I'm trying to be like, kind of like Greg for, for, for layman where, yeah, I mean, I do like to talk a bit about science and I do like to get technical, but always in a way where I, I, I, I envision that I'm writing to someone, you know, that is like, maybe has a ninth grade education, basically ninth grade vocabulary. And I'm not, I don't want to put the burden of understanding on them. I want to give them little bites, little concepts that like, you know, if they can just understand this little breadcrumb trail of concepts, 15 little concepts that build one on the other, finally at the end, the whole thing makes sense. So, you know, but I kind of approach any writing like that. So any section of the article, I mean, the intros are obviously just trying to be interesting, trying to hook them. But once we get into the meat of it,

it's like, even if we're starting at, you know, let's say it's a protein type question, right? Related to protein and building muscle. I would start that discussion with like, well, what is protein? Why does it even matter? Why do we need to eat protein to build muscle? Because if you don't even understand that,

and I just tell you, let's say, I just say, all right, you want the quick answer? It's about one gram per pound of body weight per day. You can go a little bit lower if you want, or a little bit higher if you're like super lean and wanting to get even leaner. But that's kind of like, that's kind of where you want to be. There's your answer. And even if you're like, okay, I think this dude knows what he's talking about. That's cool. I'm going to do that for a bit. But then you go read someone else's shit and they're like, and they also seem like they know what they're talking about and they can articulate themselves and they go, well, it's like half a gram, half a gram per pound, actually. Um, that's what you should be eating. And then if you don't

have, if that's like it, if you just have gotten the little fucking, you know, tweets of answers, how are you supposed to determine which, you know what I mean? It just becomes the criteria become very random in terms of like, how do you know who to listen to? So I like to start rewind that and go, okay, so let's first let's talk about why protein matters. Let's give you some basic understanding of what protein is comprised of. Why do you need to eat protein? So then when we, when we phase into, you know, so there's what protein is, you know, actually like chemically, and then what does it do in the body? How is it, how is it related to muscle building? And now let's talk about some, you know, some quant let's, let's quantify some things and

look at some research in terms of quantities. And so when somebody comes through the end of that, they feel like they've, they've learned a lot more and they have a much better understanding of things. They didn't even know what to ask. Like the question probably should have been initially. So like, what does the word protein mean? Like what is protein? You know what I mean?

I mean, that's that. I mean, you break it down by that way, which makes it nice to like, oh, okay. I guess that's what a protein is. Exactly. And I think also as a reader, like if, if, if at any point we feel kind of friction, even if it's a subconscious and that we don't quite understand something, or there are words in there that we don't understand. We don't, you know, we don't have degrees in this, that, or whatever. So if you're reading again, if you go to read

Greg Knuckles' stuff, and I think he's gotten a little bit better in this regard, but if you read some of his older stuff, he goes deep into biomechanics and says words that somebody that is well-versed in that, of course they know those words, of course, but you know, you wouldn't. And it's not because you're stupid. It's because you don't know that stuff. Like you're not, you haven't studied that stuff. You know what I mean? So if he's going to go into like dive into the physics of, of squatting and talk about levers and fucking fulcrums and shit, and you're like, okay. Um, and, and, and how it applies to this joint and that, and just throwing words around. It makes it can

make you feel stupid, like it and it can be frustrating as an individual. And the same thing with me, if I go dive into something, like one of the first things I do, if I'm learning something is I'm really diligent. I mean, I do this anyway, but I'm very I'm looking for like key terminology, like I want to make sure I want to feel like I fully understand all the words that I'm reading. So that might mean in the beginning, this is how it was in this space. When I dove into it was reading a lot of scientific literature, meta-analyses and reviews were particularly good because they are a bit more conversational and they do give you a bit broad, a bit of a broader view and review a lot of research. But in the beginning it was just learning the meaning of a

lot of fucking words. You know what I mean? So then honestly, so then I could read, you know, get to the point where I could read research. I mean, diet research was that nutrition is a bit easier, but like, okay, cool. So now I understand enough where I can actually make my own judgments on, uh, does this make sense or not? And then come to, uh, a, an under the understanding that the researchers were trying to, uh, instill in other people. That's why they chose those words. But if you don't know what they are, you know what I mean? So, um, again, if as a writer, I just, I, I try to stay very sensitive to that and not allow myself to like, you know, be lazy in a sense of I'm an expert on certain things. And I'm just, you know, I don't need to like, why do I have to fucking talk about what that protein is comprised

of amino acids and all this basic shit? They can just read a Wikipedia article. Yeah. But you know what I mean? They're not going to though. So, um, so yeah, so I mean that's, that's a major part. And then just trying to keep things as short and sweet as possible. You know, if you can say something in five words instead of 15, that's always better. Um, and you know, I don't know. I just, again, I think

one of the, and I think it's similar to marketing, you know, like to be good at marketing, you have to really like marketing. I wholeheartedly believe that. Um, I think if you're at least to be really good at it, I don't, I don't know how you feel about that, but I don't, I don't know anybody that's really good at marketing that doesn't truly enjoy it. I don't know how you feel about that, but I don't know anybody that's really good at marketing that doesn't truly enjoy it. Well, I think it's when you make a product that you want to go let the market know about. Yeah, but marketing on the whole though.

Just some people are not interested in marketing. Like they don't want to read about it. They don't want to think about it. They don't really want to do it. They just want to, let's say, write books, for example. But they don't want to take time to learn how to sell books or market books. You know what I mean? Really? Yeah. It's funny because I actually, when I reflect on my life, I think I'm better at the marketing of things than necessarily

the making of things. Yeah. Like I'm better at finding, oh, I really like that. Let me try to figure out how to help get that word out about that idea. Yeah. Yeah. Which is from a, from an economic perspective, much better than the other way around. Cause there's, there's tons of people that other way around, um, where they want to do what they want to do. They want to, you know, they just want to create their little widgets or their things and they don't want to have to like confront the business side of it. I mean, that's fucking, there's like every starting artist, right? Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, a lot of people want to be like health coaches, right? So what separated someone like you versus them?

Um, I mean, I know just from like actual feedback from people. So one, there's the content creation, which I mean, also having now my books so entrenched in Amazon, I sell, I mean, now it's about 30,000 copies a month and it just continues to grow. Um, that is having like being a bestselling author positions you, people respect that a lot. Um, you know, just generally people do cause, cause a lot of people think that, and I understand, but they think that writing a book is very hard. You know what I mean? And so like someone that has done it, isn't it very hard? I mean, I don think that writing a book is very hard. You know what I mean? And so someone that has done it – Isn't it very hard? I mean, I don't know.

It's something I just enjoy doing legitimately. It's like my side project is writing another book on top of whatever other shit I'm doing. But I just really enjoy it. it's like at least halfway good and has sold a lot of copies that immediately sets me apart from, from almost everybody else in the space. Um, so there's that. And then there's also the ongoing content that I produce on the podcasts and the articles and stuff. And people appreciate that. And, um, you know, they know that I don't have to do that. I do it actually like, yeah, there's business value, but I also do it because I enjoy it. Um, and, um, I think also there's maybe a bit of an X factor personality wise. Like people just tend to, it manifests in that, like I have, I have a lot of people that really admire me

basically is, is I guess how it manifests. And like, do you think it's cause they've gotten the results from you? Like they've actually followed some of the things that you've done. I asked Tim, Tim Ferriss about it and I was like, why do people just do whatever you say? Because I have my own audience of people that are interested in some of the things I have to share. And sometimes I'm like, do you guys ever do what I say? And then it's not even about ego or anything, but it's ultimately if you're trying to be influential, the things you influence have to be effective to what they're hoping to get. So people are following your advice, getting results and like, well, what else is Mike going to tell us? Totally.

And then, though, when you start achieving success, though, that becomes – it adds a bit of almost a mystique to it all as well because we kind of instinctively admire people that make money and are kind of movers and shakers and doing shit that is kind of different and unique. So there's a bit of that. I tim ferris benefits greatly from that um again like for our body i'm pretty sure that was a joke between his friends and why he wrote that book i mean the it's there's so much fake science and the book is at its core and is a joke in the in the health and fitness space. Well, for me, what I've been wondering, actually, I was curious to get, because you know this really well, is that, so the two things, like I actually read his book and I tried some

of it for like three weeks. And for me, the binge thing on the weekends didn't really work well for me. It just wasn't to my style. It's like, all right, binging is, I'm binging. And you can do, you can undo an entire week's worth of weight loss easily and not just a weekend in one day. Like you got to figure, you know, if you're in a caloric deficit, let's say you're in a 500 calorie deficit, right? That's pretty standard, whatever. So for, for let's just say it's six days, you stick to your diet and you're good. So you are in a 3000 calorie deficit for the week. You've lost

about a pound. Things are going, you know, pretty well. And then you go and you eat 3,000 calorie deficit for the week. You've lost about a pound. Things are going, you know, pretty well. And then you go and you eat 10,000 calories on Sunday, which you can do. If you wake up early and you start working at it, you can hit 10,000 calories in a day. I was, dude. I was hitting the grocery store right away. Exactly. And so let's say a lot of those calories are fat as well, right? Which is just stored preferentially as body fat. So you're eating a lot, you're eating fucking, you know, pasta. We're not, I mean, sorry, not pasta, pizza and ice cream and just super fatty foods. You can, you can, you know, back to square one yourself basically in, in one day,

two days, absolutely easy. You do that shit. Like you go, you go, let's say, you know, let's say those are also days where you're not training. So let's say Saturday and Sunday, you burn maybe 2000 calories on those days. Cause you're pretty sedentary and whatever. And you just eat fucking 7,000 calories on both of those days. I mean, do the math. You're now in a 10,000 calorie surplus in two days and your body's going to store a significant percentage of that as body fat, not all, but if you lost one pound or let's say one half to one pound of fat during that week, and then you just – you know what I mean? And I know like not from Tim's stuff, but I've heard from many, many people that that's where cheat days fuck people up.

Like they don't realize. And so I've seen it firsthand where like that was the only major problem that was with their whole diet protocol was they didn't realize that like cheat days can get out of hand real fucking fast. Well, there's no rule. I mean, for me, it's also not sustainable. That's what I've noticed. So I've been trying to figure out how do I balance my health stuff? And so I did want to get your advice on it. We're like, like I did it for 30 days. And I think that's the problem with health is that you can read any book and some gimmicks about doing green eating only green shit for a month i always joke my mom does the watermelon diet she does a watermelon for 30 days and then the next month

she eats fucking pizza and burgers and burritos and she complains about it gains the weight back and so forth yes the sustainability isn't there uh which is where my frustration with the book was like one the binging was too much for me and the sustainability is like do i want to just never have fruit and milk for the rest of my life again not really i like fruit yeah right fruit is like and so one of the more i mean that's like a staple nutritious food that we should all be eating is a few servings of fruit today in addition to vegetables well so let me get your take on it so i did i did a three-day fast just as an experiment my friend said he didn't it was good and so i've been trying to experiment different things how do you like the two things um well so i'm on a one day i'm doing a 5 p.m rule today

i experiment with different ones and see how i can incorporate them and if it makes a difference so it's kind of like i read your article then i try stuff out or i try other things out and i'm like well that didn't really make a difference this did yeah all right so forth so the fast one though what's been interesting is i felt like my you know the science of it but it felt like my metabolism subsequently when i start reintroduce food after three days was better and it feels like you did a three day you did like a 72 hour i did a 72 hour one and then i was talking with do you know john somesh simple programmer no he's a youtube guy and he's really into fitness and coding as well okay and he was saying he had a simple rule, which I liked.

He's like, I just don't eat till five. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, and he works out all the time. He's like, I just run my day. And at five, I can pretty much more or less eat what I want. Because like how many calories in one fucking meal can until you just want to throw up? Exactly. And so I was like, that's actually kind of interesting way of doing it.

So I've been experimenting with fasting and like, what is a good way of incorporating? Is it like the five to diet? Or is it one day fast-2 diet or is it one day fast six days off or every day just do 5 p.m i mean what's your because i feel like that's something i keep hearing more and more about it in a year or six months it'd be like oh you got to fast one day a week and that's the new trend yeah so so a few things on in terms of metabolism like your metabolism definitely ramps up the longer you fast i i haven't read the research on it in quite some time because i wrote like an in-depth article on intermittent fasting for Legion, but it was like over a year ago. So I

want to say somewhere around the 36 to 40 hour mark is when you see market rises in growth hormone and things, which makes sense because your body's telling you like, yo, motherfucker, go get me food, like go move, do something. Like I don't want to just starve to death. You know what I mean? So physiologically, it makes sense that we would see that reaction. You know, but the unfortunate thing is you have to fast for a rather long period of time to kind of really see those effects, which is not ideal from a protein muscle protein balance perspective, because we know that somewhere around the 18 or sorry, the 16 to 18 hour mark is when muscle breakdown rates also start to rise. And eventually they do taper off, but for people that are very much concerned about their body composition and are trying to maximize muscle and strength gain, that's not ideal, of course. So that's why, for example,

Martin Burkhan's lean gains is a 16 hour fast followed by an eight hour feeding window. That's why Martin set it up that way and super smart dude and understands the science of fasting better than I do. And, uh, really, you know, it makes sense based on what I've read. So that's one thing to consider. Um, if, if that though is not like a major concern of yours, then, I mean, there also are some potential health benefits of longer fasts. And I've, I've written about those and they're mainly like we know from disease research, but it's also, there is a good chance that, you know, it can help the immune system kind of reset and clean itself out, so to speak.

And so I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong. I mean, also, again, looking at it from an evolutionary perspective, there was a time when there was no fucking 5-2 diet. It was like, you know, we're wandering around trying to find food for three days. Yeah. Now we have some food and we're going to binge on that shit so we can gain some fat so we can make it through the next, you know, little fast. So it would make sense that our body would, would, would be able to, you know, it would be adapted to that type of thing.

So I think if you want to, the best reason to fast is if you enjoy it. I honestly think that's the best. If it makes your, if it increases diet adherence, if it makes it easier for you to stick to your diet. And, and by that, I mean, keep your calories and your macros where you want them to be on a week to week basis. And working that back to why do you want your calories and macros to be there? Are you trying to gain muscle? Are you, are you trying to just kind of maintain? Are you trying to just feel good? Are you trying to gain weight? Just gain, you know, lose weight. What are you trying to do? That's really the reason to fast. So, um, if you were, again, if, if you were to care most about

body composition, I would say Martin Burkhan system is like, I mean, it's great. I mean, for that, for that reason, it's good. Um,'s also, though, there is something we said and I've written about this. It's on MFL. And if you search for protein timing, you'll find it. But there is a really good argument and there's a bit of research also that indicates that strictly for the purposes of building muscle, having protein, having about 30 to 40 grams of protein every three to four hours is probably optimal. Um, and it's not that that's like super important, but I would say that's important, uh, among bodybuilders, people that like their, that's their bread and butter is like how fucking jacked can they get? And that's why you have professional bodybuilders that wake up

in the middle of the night to fucking eat protein. Like that sounds nonsensical, but it's actually, it's actually not like physiologically speaking, it's smart and not that we all should be doing that. But, um, you know, I also, I kind of just throw that caveat out there whenever I'm talking about fasting, just because people should know that over the longterm, um, I would say that eating protein more frequently, again, it doesn't have to be like fucking eight small meals a day or anything, but if you, if you play that, if you play that out, you know, if you're, if you're talking about five servings or so of protein a day, and that there are moderately sized servings. And I explained in the article, why this, why the serving size and why the frequency, um, that's probably better over time for gaining muscle and strength. Now, we know just empirically speaking that people can gain plenty of muscle and strength following intermittent fasting diet. So it's totally fine if you want to do that. And so that kind of then circles back around to the protocol I would say that is best for you and what you enjoy the most is probably the one to go with. And ideally,

it wouldn't have you fasting for three days though. So, you know, that's why, again, most in the bodybuilding world, most people that are fasting are following a lean gains type of protocol or are doing like a 24-hour fast every week kind of thing. But you won't find very many people following like ADF where, you know, alternate day fasting or 5-2. Like you won't find very many people trying to fast for 48 plus hours in the bodybuilding scene. That's interesting. No, because I definitely want bigger arms. I like having bigger arms and bigger chest. Yeah.

It's also kind of like I noticed the fast helped my metabolism. It felt like it helped my metabolism. I was like, all right, well, how can I incorporate that in a healthy way and, yeah, and sustainably. Now, what do you mean like you felt like it helped your metabolism? What did you notice? Well, I started eating, and then the next few days I just – I didn't like over overcompensate but I was like I just drank And I ate and then day four or five I was weighing myself I'm like how do I still weigh very I still weigh this almost the same amount And I didn't really add a lot more exercise or a lot more gym time. Yeah, but that's that's how it should be though

Like your your body you has I mean a pretty complex system that uses to regulate appetite and it's Its goal is homeostasis like it doesn't want to gain or lose weight it really actually kind of just wants to stay the same so you know if you're if your endocrine system is working the way it should and I guess it's also other things involved in your gut and blah blah blah but if everything is kind of working the way it should you should be able to kind of just eat intuitively and maybe with some loose guidelines like I'm gonna eat a bit of protein in each meal and I'm going to have some vegetables and I'm going

to have some fruit and it's not just going to be like super processed, super calorically dense bullshit food. Then, you know, you should be able to kind of just eat on feel and not gain or lose weight. What are you following right now? So one thing, what are you following? I guess I'm curious when's, what's the last thing you've changed in your diet or in your nutrition? Right. So, I mean, I am kind of a creature of habit, like in general, like I'm big on routine in my life. Like I wake up at the same time every day I go to, I have my shit, like the way I like it. You know what I mean? Um, and, and so I'm very much like that with my diet. Also, it works well for me because I like to eat the foods that I like. Like I can eat the same stuff every day for quite a long time before I even feel like changing anything because I legitimately enjoy it every time I eat it.

So what's an example of a day? So I'm going to tell you right now. So like before I go to the gym, I have a scoop of whey and I have a banana like 30 minutes before just to have some protein and carbs because obviously I go to the gym early in the morning first thing. And then I'll come here to the office after I work out. And usually within 30 minutes or an hour or so, I'll have two scoops of – we have a vegan protein. And so I'll do two scoops of that, one or two scoops of that. I might kind of change that to yogurt just because I don't want to get too many of my, too much of my protein from fucking powders. But regardless, I have, I have some protein, uh, when I, when I get, when I get here and I also have

like an apple, just have a little bit more carbs. And then my lunch is a salad, which is just like lettuce and spinach and cucumbers and chicken and some cheese and shit. Um, and I'll use like, I don't know, maybe four tablespoons of a lower fat kind of dressing, like five grams of fat per two tablespoons. Um, so whatever, like 10, 12 grams of fat with the salad. And then I'll have, uh, either, so I'll have some yogurt again, 30 or 40 grams of protein or protein powder around now, usually actually, depending on what I had in the morning. Like if I had the yogurt in the the morning i'll do the powder later or vice versa and another and usually you're like greek yogurt yeah i like greek low sugar yeah yeah i like uh you know phallic the zero percent is good

i put that sometimes i'll mix that with protein powder i find that really good yeah same i'll do the same thing um i also do that i tried this shit last night called Skir. It's like some Icelandic shit. S-K-Y-R. It's good. Yeah, it's like Siggy's. Have you ever had Siggy's? Yeah, but I didn't like Siggy's. Like this is a brand called Icelandic. And I just was grocery shopping and I was like, oh, what the fuck?

I'll try that. And I like it. It's like a, it's different. It's creamy. It's creamier than Greek yogurt, but it's like no fat. It's like two grams of fat for 17 grams of protein you like this the taste of this was better than siggy's tree uh yeah yeah i liked i liked this one better than siggy's um and so that's so that's my afternoon little snack

and then um dinner i have usually about like six to seven ounces of chicken usually or it can be ground turkey sometimes there's some sort of like meat type of protein. And I have like three or four servings of vegetables. These days I kind of make a vegetable medley. So like I just want something one pot, you know, I don't want, I don't want to take the time to like make an elaborate meal or anything. I want something simple that I can just fucking throw in the oven and then come back 30 minutes later and eat it. You know what I mean? Um, so it'd be like Brussels sprouts and onions and garlic and tomato and mushrooms and just a bunch of vegetables that I like. Um, and then, and then a few hours later, I'll usually have like a cup to a cup and a half of oatmeal. So this is like 10 PM at night, which is also just good for sleeping. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just do it because I like to eat something later at night. Like I eat, I like to actually

a bit more of my calories later in the day. That's how I prefer it. But, um, I also like oatmeal because eating, eating, I go to bed around 11 and I read for about 30 minutes and then go to sleep. So, um, like one of the things that can wake you up is if your blood sugar levels get too low, cause then cortisol levels go up and that wakes you up. And if it doesn't wake you up, it can fuck with your sleep cycles. So like if you haven't eaten in a, in, in a, uh, you know, many, many hours before going to bed, it depends on how well your body can regulate its blood sugar levels, but that can fuck with your sleep, which is why research shows that having, um, like a, like a like a, like a

lower GI, like a slower burning, a meal with slower burning carbs, not, you don't want too much. Cause that actually can go the other way and cause like indigestion and wake you up. But like a moderate amount of lower GI, slower burning carbs, an hour to an hour and a half before going to bed that can help keep your blood sugar levels stable while you're sleeping. Um, so, and I'm all about like sleep efficiency because I don't like having to sleep. So I want to sleep as little as I have to basically. So I like do little things to try to sleep is cause really what matters is actually thought about that. Cause I think that's a thing. Everyone's talking about how do I sleep as much as possible to feel refreshed. No, it's all about sleep quality.

It's about sleep cycles. It's about deep sleep. It's about your body needs three to four full sleep cycles to feel. That's what the bodies need, right? To feel refreshed and feel rested. And those sleep cycles generally, if everything is working properly, they last about an hour and a half. So you can do the math. And that's why it's most people, unless

there's something else fucking wrong, but physically speaking, most people should be able to go on six to six and a half hours of sleep and, and be totally fine. I've been doing it for like fucking six years now. Um, but that has to be really good sleep. Like you have to fall asleep quickly and you have to, what can happen is there are different things that can cause you, like, for example, room temperature matters a lot. You want your room to be cold because if your body temperature rises too much, it may not even wake you up, but it can fuck with the sleep cycle. So your brain needs to, you know, cycle through different stages while you sleep. And the most important stage in terms of like rejuvenation is deep sleep, which is what

they call it. You can fucking track it with those random apps or whatever, right? That's where your body's like comatose, like you don't move at all. And so that's, that's the key is making sure that you get, you get, you get enough deep sleep. So like, I know just from using those little sleep tracking apps on six to six and a half hours of sleep, I'll generally get three to four hours of deep sleep. Um, maybe not four, three to three and a half is, is, and, but you know, I know like Jeremy, he's tracked his sleep before and eight hours of sleep sometimes would get him less than three hours of deep sleep. Hmm. So that's actually really, so you have oatmeal, what, like an hour before you go to bed? Yeah, about an hour or so. I have a cup, cup to cup and a half and I, you know. A cup of oatmeal?

Dry, yeah, I like to eat. You just eat the oatmeal dry? No, fuck that, I cook it. But I'm saying it's a cup dry. It's not a cup. You put anything in it? Yeah, I put some maple syrup and I'll put, like I used to do this whole baked thing.

I'd like bake fucking a bunch of fruit in it and make it this whole thing, which is actually delicious, but it just takes too much time. So now I'm just like instant oatmeal. And I, and you know, reminds me of when I was a kid so those are good yeah yeah so dude a whole cup of it that's actually really interesting i you know it's funny you say that so when i was doing the 17 72 hour fast recently i couldn't sleep my body wouldn't let me my body's like yo you got to go

find some food exactly and that's and that's and that's what you want i mean obviously you want to have the opposite so that's why you hear about like no blue light, you know, at night. And cause you want not working out at night is worse. Working out in the morning is like known to improve sleep quality because, uh, not having caffeine, you know, anywhere six hours, you know, in before you go to sleep because, you know, cortisol is what wakes you up in the morning. So the morning your body, your cortisol levels are on the rise. That's the time where you want to go out, expose yourself to the sun, do exercise, have caffeine, all the stuff that raises cortisol levels. Do that, you know, when it's, uh, in conjunction with your body's natural rhythm. But then from there you want your cortisol levels to be coming

down, down, down, down. And so, you know, you want them to be at their, uh, what would it be? Nate Nadir, I guess like, yeah,, Nadir, or how do you pronounce it? The lowest point. N-A-D-I-R, however you pronounce that. But the lowest, you have like the apex is the top and Nadir is the lowest point. You want your cortisol levels to be at their lowest when it's time to go to sleep. And you don't want them to go up when you're sleeping. So, you know, Shawn Stevenson has a good book on this called Sleep Smarter.

He's a smart dude. I've had him on the podcast. and he talks about some of this stuff. But there are a lot of little simple tweaks you can make. And, you know, on the podcast, he talks about like he works with a lot of executives and shit and people that are like, fuck sleep. I want to sleep as little as possible without sacrificing my health. What do I do? And he works with them and he said that he's gotten a lot of people down to six and six

to six and a half. They just, you know, a lot of little things, even pillow choice and blah, blah, blah. There's some fascinating research. So even some shit I hadn't heard about when on the podcast, like he said, there was one study where they took subjects and you had the control, the people that are just doing their normal thing. And then you had people that he said it was a light about this big and it was on the back of their knee. And that was enough to disrupt their sleep cycles. Like throughout the night, they had a light that big just in the back of their knee. And so like the body is super sensitive to light.

And, you know, so that means that, for example, you want your bedroom to be pitch black. You don't want any light from fucking any electronics from even blinking lights on like a, like a, like a, like a whatever TV box or anything you want pitch black. Um, so yeah, I mean, then there's also like, you can get sound conditioners because there can be sounds that, you know, are just in the environment, especially if you like live in a city. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And the good, what's nice about it is you can see quick results with that kind of shit. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And what's nice about it is you can see quick results with that kind of shit.

And then it's like, I mean, for the average person, it's like gaining two hours a day. Like how huge is that? And no sacrifice. Like you don't feel sluggish. You don't feel tired. You don't have any negative, like there's no, you know, indications that you are sleep deprived at all. Did I dig that? I'm going to check out his book.

Sleep Smarter. Sleep Smarter is his book. Yeah, I just found the book. That's cool. So coming back to your book though, how do you make it stand out? Obviously, you have a head start with an audience. I think about it just for myself and everyone listening. How do you find that angle that people will like and it will be the next – what's the first health book you think of when you think of a successful health book or self-help book?

Self-help? I don't know. Think and Grow Rich, right? Is that the first one that comes to mind? Oh, dude. I mean, that shit has sold, I don't know, 200 million copies. Has it really? Probably, yeah. Wow. And so that's the first one. I wouldn't mind writing a book that sells 200 million copies by the time I die. Yeah, that's wild. What about that book mattered to you? Or why did you think of that one first?

Just because, again, it's like one of those classic, that's, you know, it's how to win friends and influence people, think and grow rich. But yeah, there's a handful that just destroy and continue to destroy and will probably just destroy for as long as books are being read by people the the drones will read the books and don't worry so how do you make sure your book is in uh you know 1 million sales obviously you have you know your audience already it's kind of interesting and it's interesting that you would want to talk to your audience to understand more of like their psychographics demographics because you think by now you would know that yeah but this is, I think that that's a dangerous assumption to make, especially, I think it's in some ways probably something that, well, I've kind of done it. It's been an iterative process since I first published Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, and I published some

more stuff. And by emailing with a lot of people and reading every Amazon review and going through everything, I've been able to kind of pick up a lot of information that I could have actually gotten if I would have done the interview processes or done the interview process initially. You know what I mean? Like I could have avoided some mistakes and I had to learn them through actual feedback from people, but at least I gave a shit enough about feedback to get there. Um, so in this case though, again, cause this book is a bit different. It's not going to be. I have a couple other books that are more just mechanical, like, or just, I don't know, obvious kind of safer plays. Like, I'm going to do another cookbook. It's going to be like a quick and easy type cookbook.

And I have a few other ideas that are more just obvious. Yes, it's going to sell well. Yes, it's needed. But I want to do this because, well, like, I going to sell well. Yes. It's needed, but I want to do this, uh, because well, like I want to, for a few reasons, one, I want to produce something that can appeal to people, um, regardless of what type of exercise they're into. So like anyone that's into working out at all, like I want this to be a book that they can get something from. And obviously to do that, it can't be then just about, can get something from. And obviously to do that,

it can't be then just about, Hey, what's a good way to build muscle. What's a good way to get strong. What's a good way to lose fat, all that stuff kind of narrows it down. Um, or it can't just be about cardio or weightlifting or, you know, um, calisthenics or whatever. Um, but I think that there's a common denominator there. Like what take, take everyone that's into working out at all. What's one thing they can never get enough of. And this is also that, that is something that's a deep emotional need as opposed to just more intellectual. How do I do this? And that's motivation. It's, you know, having the energy and the will to fucking do what you're, you know, what you're supposed to do. You know what I mean? We have so much information out there at our fingertips.

It's not the problem now isn't really what should I do. It's making that emotional connection with someone where like not only do they explain what to do, but they also make you want to do it. And they, you know, inspire you to fucking take action and get going. take action and get going. So I want, again, this book to focus on that element of fitness, which also, of course, overlaps into other areas of life. And so for that book, I don't want to assume that, again, it's dangerous, I think, from a marketing perspective to write the book just for me. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's, I think a mistake I need to, I want to have an avatar of like, I'm writing it for this person. This person is, you know, my, my, I know that my key demos are like 25 to 34, a bit more men than women, college educated,

making good money. Um, so I have a good amount of demo demographic information, but I wanted to know psychologically where are these people at in their lives? Like, I don't know if you're interested. I'll tell you some of the questions, like the questions that I was asking. If you're curious, I guess I'm curious. Also, you said that you, you had to change your original books based on feedback that you could have saved time by just talking to people. What's the example? Um, like, I mean, shit, I've made quite a few changes. Let's see if there's any big, there were a lot of little specific things where like, I didn't do a good enough job explaining something. It

didn't quite make sense. And so people are asking follow-up questions. And so maybe that's not a great example of something I could kind of tease out through interviews. That's just a legit, you know, that's just part of the process of putting stuff out there and getting feedback. See, the last round of big changes was the second edition. And that was like over a year ago. So I honestly don't remember off the top of my head good examples of that, unfortunately. But there were a few things where I remember thinking if I had spoken to even just 10 or 15 of my target readership, 10 or 15 of these people before I wrote the book, I would have, I would have done that differently. I would have known now, fortunately I made, I did a lot more right than wrong, which is why the books are, have done so well. It's not like they were, you know, it's not like bigger than stronger was a piece of shit. Uh, and then, you know, through feedback and whatever, I finally made it into something that can sell like, no, I mean, it took off before I even made any big changes.

It went from zero to several thousand copies a month without me even trying. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then what have you found out or what surprised you during this interview process for this upcoming book? Well, that was my first interview. Oh. Yeah. So it's my first one.

And so I want to do – again, I want to do 10 to 15. I send an email out to my list and kind of explain to people. I would like to interview some people. And specifically I wanted people that read these types of books. And then I sent them to a Google form to ask some questions, demographic, and then get a few things on like, how many of these types of books have they read? What are their favorites and why? Just so I can get an idea of who these people are and then choose accordingly. So I'm going to talk to a few people from each age, like 25 to 34, let's just say 20 to, I don't know, 20 to mid thirties and then kind of 35 and on type type of thing. And then speak to a few men, a few women. Um, also I chose some people that seem

to have interesting life circumstances, like more traditional, they have, uh, you know, a white collar type job. They have a family and so forth. And ranging to like the dude I spoke to today is in his early twenties and he's a freelance copywriter and he like travels and shit. He just has an unusual type of life. Um, and has read a fucking million of these kinds of books. So there was, it was an interesting conversation. Yeah. I'm just curious. Cause I feel like with what's the angle of this book, I feel like with all the, as I was saying earlier, every health book has kind of its angle or is this more of like the health book for general? Again, I want it to be, I want it to very much be about motivation. I want this to be a book that motivates you. So there's like two

parts of it. That's going to motivate you to want to work out and continue working out. And then also how I've kind of structured it so far, which this may change based on what comes out of these interviews, but what I've structured so far in terms of like, so that's the sizzle. I'm working on the proposal when it's ready. If you're interested, I'll send it to you. What were some of the questions you asked? You said you had some of the questions. Yeah. So the questions are what in your life would you most like to improve right now? And then why, uh, what are the top three things that you feel are most holding you back from doing this? What kinds of things have you done to try to overcome these obstacles? How did it go? What helped? What didn't? Why do you think the things helped helped? You know, what made the unhelpful things unhelpful? What would your life ideally

look like right now? So paint me a picture as vividly as you can, including work, finances, you know, relationships, family, kids, friends, whatever. Um, how would your life look like? What does this picture look like five years from now? Uh, what, what is this picture? Have you thought about, and it's also, that was interesting. I want to know, do people even think about that? Like this guy really hasn't really thought much about like, that's kind of, he looked at it as this is his next five years. So after that, I mean, I guess it's just kind of like, it's the pinnacle of what he just kind of laid out. And then I asked, so how, what does this picture look like 10 years from now? And in his case, he hadn't even thought about 10 years from now, which is good to know.

What kinds of things make you immediately interested in a self-development or self-help or self-transformation book? What, you know, catches your attention? What makes that strong first impression? What kind of things make you immediately disinterested in a book like this, what turns you off immediately and says, this isn't the book for me. What are you most hoping to get out of self-development? So these, these types of books, like what are the, what is the, what are the big benefits? What are you really trying to achieve when you read these books? And what do you just kind of generally like about them? It could be

the length of them. It could be the tone. It could be the fucking title. I don't care. Just what, if what's off, what are the things you'd say? Oh, I generally like if it's like this, you know what I mean?

And then what do you generally dislike about these books? And again, it could be very broad. So those are the questions I came up with. Holy shit. People answered all that. I told you it was a long, that's why it was a long fucking conversation.

Yeah, I can imagine. So one thing I've noticed is that I've really changed my diet over the years all that i told you it's a lot that's why it was a long fucking conversation yeah i can imagine so one thing i've noticed is that i've really changed my diet over the years and i've evolved it in my exercise i've evolved it but i think lately i've noticed i'm a little bit at a lull where i'm i don't really have a fitness plan i don't have a fitness goal like i want a six-pack and i don't have a plan like um you know there's like was it strength strong training or some shit like that or the five five or five by five yeah there's another one was it strength, strong training or some shit like that? Or the five, five or five by five.

Yeah. There's another one, pimento or something like that, that I was trying. Okay. And I'll do it for like, it's not pimento. It's kind of like a push pull system. And it's just like, how do you not get bored with the gym and diet? Because there's certain people that seem to not get bored with it, but I feel like I'm on, and I don't think I'm unique where I'm like, fuck, I'm tired of all these same kind

of diet or I'm tired of the same type of gym. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a good question for me personally. Obviously now it's part of my, part of my job. So that's part of it. But even if it weren't, I don't think that would really change anything because you're talking about, okay, goals and why though, what's the purpose? Why? Yes. You could, let's say you could set a goal and say, cool, I want to increase my whole body strength. I want to increase my squat bench and deadlift right now. I'm at X pounds and I want to get it. You can play a game. It's easy to say like, what are you at right now? Add up. If you add up your one rep maxes of squat bench deadlift and you have a number and fear state, cool. The game is to get that to a thousand pounds,

right? Total. You got it. That's pretty fucking strong. Or even if it's, even if you dial it back a little bit and say 800 pounds or whatever, and that's the game. One, just doing that, I think is better than just going, it's the difference between training and exercise, right? So you can, training is goal oriented. You're working towards something. Exercise is you just go and fucking do workouts. And I've, I've experienced both. So I actually, I mean, I know where you're coming from where exercise for me is kind of boring where I, it's not like, I guess maybe I have good self-discipline and good self-control. So I still do it. It's not like I'm going to skip workouts just because it's not very interesting, but training is, is far more motivating and interesting than exercising is. And with training comes that where it's like, it could be, again, it could be

a strength goal. It could be a body composition goal where, where, so maybe it's more tied into a look. Um, and that's kind of where I'm at right now, where I want to improve my physique. And so my training is more around the areas that I feel need more improvement on my body. Um, so that's a, that's a good place to start where a lot of people, they're just kind of exercising and they're doing it for whatever reason. Maybe they know it's healthy,

they know it's the right thing to do, but they're not quantifying their progress. They're not really getting feedback. You know, it's like standard stuff from flow where you can't really get into that flow state without making it clear what you're trying to do and tracking your progress toward it and getting feedback and, and continually iterating on it and improving and trying to get, you know, just keep that moving toward the goal.

Um, but then there's also, for me, there's, there's like a bit of the purpose side of things of why, why am I doing this? It's not, I'm not, it's not for girls. It's not, I'm not like some single dude running around just trying to fuck everyone. You know what I mean? Um, which is, which is why a lot of guys get into working out. I mean, that's why I first started getting lifting weights when I was 17, 18 is I just was like, well, uh, I like girls and girls like muscles. So I'm just gonna like get some more muscle. Um, but, but, but, but for me, I think there's, um, it's a bit of vanity, of course. Like I like to look in the mirror and like what I see and that means something to me. Um, and it, there's, if I'm, again, if I haven't

really like reflected on this person all that much, to be honest, but I would say there's a bit of self-confidence as well. Being in good shape definitely just kind of gives you that. I think people perceive you differently. And I think in a way you perceive yourself differently. If you know, this is one of those things that you can't inherit, you can't steal, you can't borrow, you can't buy, which can't be said about a lot of things. And it represents generally admirable qualities of, you know, discipline and work and personal responsibility. And, you know, it kind of fits into, I don't know how you like where you're at on things like this. But for me, I'm more interested

as in myself individually, I'm more interested in the person that I am, like my values and my behaviors than the things that I have, whether that's money or possessions. I actually don't derive much satisfaction at all from making money or having things. A little bit. But without the rest, without the more, the deeper, more satisfying stuff, it would mean nothing to me. I'd be just straight fucking depressed. I don't care how much money I had. I don't care how many multimillion dollar houses I had, or none of that shit would mean anything to me if I wasn't happy with who I am as a person, you know? And I, and I didn't feel like I'm improving my, my character and moving for me also like a big thing is mastery really. And specifically my, the field I've chosen is writing

just in particular. And it's something, obviously the nature of mastery, you can never say you fully mastered anything. Like I will die being to some degree an unfulfilled or unrealized if we're talking about Maslow's pyramid, like, you know, writer. But I just like the idea that I can choose one thing and say, this is my, this is my one thing in this area of my life, this work and career and what I'm doing for money and spending a lot of my time on is like, I want to become as good of a writer as I can. a lot of my time on is like, I want to become as good of a writer as I can. So, and, and, and that then is just like what I'm choosing to kind of pour my time and energy and my spirit into it from, from again, trying to, trying to just value mastery over just having things. And so for me,

working out fits into that in that, um, it supports me physically. It supports my physical energy levels. It supports my mental energy levels. It allows me to sleep less than I would have to sleep otherwise, which gives me more time to do the things I want to do. And that energy stuff, a lot of people, I think they discount the importance of that in that it's not about if we're looking at productivity or just enjoyment of life. It's there's quantity of time, but then there's quality of time. And I think quality of time is just as important, if not more important than quantity. And you know that from fucking just working. And if you're like on point, you can get done what would might otherwise normally take eight hours and two hours just because you're fully there flow.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I like your point about mastery and also the idea of like you're working – you're training versus working out. Yeah. So training is kind of you're going in some direction. Yes. For you, what's the direction? Because I will agree when I've had, hey, I want to get bigger arms and I spent all my time around that or or I wanted to six pack and I spent all my time around that. Uh, it actually helps align everything else

up in life that I've noticed. So as I'm doing something like, Oh yeah, wow. It actually, other parts of life are getting better. It's kind of, as I'm saying it out loud, it's like, Oh yeah, it's a good reminder. Dumbass. That's it. That's something that's going to be in the book. Just that concept of like training versus exercise. There's a difference here, but then there's also on a meta level, you know, this, this, this extends beyond just, we're not just talking about building biceps now, because just that if you can approach other areas of your life in the same way of what's the goal here and why am I doing it? Why does this matter to me before you ever do anything first step back and

be like, what am I trying to do? And why do I give a shit about this? Why does this matter? And if you want to even zoom out more, I think you can look at like your life on the whole, what are your big goals? Not just for your, for again, just for work and money and shit. But you know, we have, I think that we have the potential to have however big of a sphere of influence as we want for me again, again, where I'm trying myself to push myself, my own comfort zone, so to speak, in that way, where it'd be very easy for me. And I'm sure for you as well. We don't have to work as hard as we do. I mean, if all we cared about was just living for our own pleasure, you don't have to build a

big business. You could just cruise and you'd be like, cool, I'm here. I'll just fucking do whatever. I mean, um, I mean, I'm assuming just, just given the success that you've had, I mean, I could just like, yeah, work as little as I wanted to actually, and, and make more money than I know what to do with, but I wouldn't be happy with myself. Dude, it's totally interesting you say that. Uh, a lot of other guys at Facebook when I was there as well made hundreds of millions, if not billions. And I've seen a few of them actually struggle with it. Because a lot of people think, oh, you're going to get all this money, everything will be solved. And actually, it's not.

They're like, well, what do I do now? And how did that play out? They're still going through it, trying to figure out what to do next. After you work there five years, you've got all the money that you you know imagine that you wanted and you're like well what do i do now and yeah you can travel for a year and two years and i think what i'm going through and a lot of people are going through is like you know and as you say yourself like how do you find work and things that you're you know you'd work on for free and that could sustain you and fulfill you yes for some period of time and i go back and forth on that there's sometimes i'm like oh this

is everything i want to work on and i think the hard part is the days where you don't want to go to the gym or you don't want to feel like doing the work. And I think you know the answer to it. Those are the days you got to go. Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. I totally agree.

Unfortunately, unfortunately, those are the days. And so like the gym, I think your point is like find something that you're working towards. Like I actually wrote this down. I thought what you said was so great. What goal health-wise do I have? And then I was thinking in terms of business as well, you know, what goals do I have personally that I want and, you know, kind of project out forward in six months, 12 months. Okay. Well, what would I want it to look like? I think what you're saying about relationships

is the same concept of so many people are just kind of wait for someone to come along and they're like, oh, well, this is good. I'll just take this versus what kind of person do I want? What kind of business do I want? What kind of health do I want? And then trying to see, all right, well, I want this in the future. How do I line up things now so that I get that better future? Yeah. And then, and then why I think it's always important, you know, that like the Toyota five wise type thing of really getting to the bottom of why. And for me, that's been a big thing again, finding, because I feel like that's, that's what gets you through those tough days. That's what, you know, when you, you didn't sleep, like, you know, you slept like shit and you don't really want to go

to the gym, but you know, you, you know, that there's, there's a bigger picture here. It's not just about, again, it's similar to, it's not just about going and burning some calories and that's exercise. You move your body, you burn some calories and yes, it has a lot of health benefits and a lot of, I mean, it's great to do, uh, but it's not the same as training. And I think that that applies to a lot of things in life. Like it's not hard to just stay busy, but busy for what and why, you know? I think that's such a good point where, uh, a lot of, and this is what I'm actually spending a lot of this week on is how do I become less busy this week or not become, how do I just not go do things? Like I have to do this and I have to be busy and I have,

and so it's like blocking out time tomorrow and Wednesday to say, all right, well, I want to think about things. And I realized this in companies that you need people to do stuff. Like you need someone in support and you need someone in marketing and you need a developer and you know, probably standard positions. And then you think about a CEO or someone running the company, you're like, well, they're not sitting at their desk working all day. Why aren't they working? And what I'm realizing and been more aware of as I've gotten older and as I've grown the company is that like, that's actually where a lot of the bigger value come, which is, all right, what's the future look like? What do the competitors look like? And that's generally

not going to happen when I'm sitting at my computer emailing or Facebooking or reading things. It's going to come like reading books or walking or talking to other people about it. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think it's a very astute observation. It's something I myself have like – I think I've done a decent job of. At least I've been aware of it. job of, at least I've been aware of it. Although to be honest, most of my time is, is kind of just whether it's writing articles or writing books or creating, doing stuff like this. Um, that's the majority of my time, but yes, I think it is very important to be able to, to step back and just

kind of like allow yourself to think about where you're at, where you want to go. How are there, you know, I even, I like Peter Thiel's little 10 X, uh, like, what is it? No, no, it's like, uh, yeah, no. So it's this if, so if you're to look at, you know, a 10 year, 10 years now, what's the big, like, you know, hurrah. And how could you get there in six months? And it's just kind of a mind exercise of And how could you get there in six months? And it's just kind of a mind exercise of to force you to think outside the box. And how can you do things more efficiently? And, you know, I agree. And that's also is exactly that that the CEO is the dream maker and is the one that's charting the course and you know establishing the overarching strategies and and maybe even having a hand in the plans as well but that is so key that that top of the pyramid type of thinking is so key because if you're, you know, one inch off up there, you can be a fucking mile off down at the bottom where it's,

where it's execution and tactical, you know? Yeah. I think that's a good way. It's, you know, one thing I've been thinking about with, uh, with business journals, like, why are you doing it? Like into your point, like what's that goal that you're really trying to accomplish and the vision that you're trying to set out to be like, Man, I'd really love to help education or help people with you, like with health and motivation. And for me, a lot of it is like, how do I help people grow their businesses? That's kind of where I spend a lot of my time. Yeah. And do you have a why? Like, why? Why help people grow their businesses?

When I reflect on the things I've done, a lot of it just comes back to seeing, seeing a lot of great things out there that I think should get more attention. And a lot of people don't know how to actually get their, get the word out about it. Yeah. And so I don't really want to help everyone. I think that's, I think it's kind of these funny things. People are like, yeah, I want to help everyone. I'm like, I actually don't. Uh, especially in your line of business. There are some businesses you'd be like, no, I don't want to help this person. He's a piece of shit. Yeah. So for me, it comes to, there's certain businesses that I'm like, man, like your message, uh, my friend Tynan's message, there's an author I met named Pierce Brown. Uh, so like sumo.com, it's like, we gave out the tools that we've been using to help people get

their own messages out. Totally. Yeah. And I think that's great. And I think also it's like, it's about some finding something that resonates with you and not being, not worrying about what other people are going to think about it, you know, because it's, I think it's very easy to just cut everything down to size and just be like, yeah, who cares? Like whatever you're helping people, you know, build a business and then so what? So you're helping people sell stuff. So what? So you're helping people make, you know, be happy. So what? They're just going to die anyway. And, you know, I think that kind of shit, that kind of thinking and the people that are inclined toward that are people I just delete from my life because I think that shit

is just contagious and it's just low energy, low. There's just not, I just find those people aren't very alive. They're not the kind of people, you know, I pulled this from, I think it was 48 Laws of Power. And it's one of those things that just stuck with me that in one of the laws he was talking about, I wasn't particularly this type of person. I don't remember. No, it was unlucky people.

He was talking about people. So I think he may have also lumped in like people that are just unlucky, that nothing really goes right for them in their life. You know what I mean? And they have a lot more things that go wrong than go right. And sure, they have excuses and this and that and circumstances, and they usually don't take any responsibility. It's usually everything else is it's the, their environment's fault. It's the people's fault, this, that. But one of the things he's talking about that book is those types of people you'll never be able to really change that they're there they are like a virus and they take everyone down with them they're like a fucking you know vortex or a whirlpool and you there's no way basically what he was

kind of breaking down is there's no way to be around those people without getting negatively infected by it so you, that's also something that I've kind of done is I'm very picky with the people that I allow in my inner circle, so to speak. Because I have, again, I've experienced this firsthand that some people just suck the life out of you. And then you start losing your whys and your, your goals just, you know, they don't really have that luster anymore. And your purposes just kind of seem, you know, again, like who really cares. And it's just that, that apathetic type of nothing really matters anyway. I hate that shit. Do you ever, do you work out alone most of the time? Uh, I have for a long time and now I have someone I work out

with who comes, who's willing to come with me early in the morning. What have you noticed since you started working out with someone else? I like it more. Absolutely. Oh, that's interesting. Why is that? Uh, it's more enjoyable. Um, just because like there's one, there's just the mechanical there. Like you have a spot, you have someone to just push you and you know, you're watching them. You know, he also trains pretty hard and pretty intense. So it's like, cool. Like he's doing it, you know, it's, it's, uh, and, and also because of the way that I train, I'm spending at least for my heavier sets, I'm resting for two or three minutes. And, uh, when I'm by myself, I actually just read, like I have my Kindle app on my phone and I just read in between sets. Um, and that's fine, but I prefer, I like, I don't have much social time in my life really,

because I'm pretty much just working and then I spend time with my family and that's pretty much it. And I spend some time in the gym. So my gym time also doubles as my social time, which is nice. You know, I, I enjoy talking with, he's one, he actually works with me. So we work out together and we have a lot of similar views on things and he's fun to talk to. So it kind of fulfills a little bit of my, you know, need for a social life somewhat. Yeah. The gym for me is actually where I socialize with one of my buddies, JR. It's like our time to hang out after work. Yeah. I mean, one thing that I was struggling with though, is that I started just resenting the gym where I'm like, okay, I'm going to this place again where it's just a jail.

Yeah. And how do I make it like a better second home? I would say one, and this is, again, speaking from experience, it sounds kind of silly, but I was going to a different gym here that I just didn't like. I couldn't tell you why. I just didn't like the gym. It wasn't that I was just losing motivation to train and whatever. I didn't like the vibe. I didn't like being there. I kind of just wanted to do my workouts and leave. Um, and so now I switched gyms to one that I, I just like more. I mean, it's nicer and it's

smaller and there's not as many people and the people that are there that work there are super nice, which is it. Again, I just, I enjoy being in that space more. Um, and so I think like, that's one simple thing that everyone, that's a really good tip. That's so stupidly obvious. I'm like, yeah, why don't I just try another one? That's that, that, that actually helped for me. And then it's having someone to work out with that you enjoy spending time with that. That's a big bonus or a big boost. And again, that has helped me. And then, and then also it's the stuff we were talking about previously, I think where you're there like for a good reason where it's not, you're just, you're not thinking that, dude, you could just be fucking doing some emails right now

and get that. Or he could be doing some work or he could just be like, you know, maybe taking some time to do something else, who knows, whatever. But instead you can feel like this is a good use of your time. This is exactly what you should be doing. And here's why. And if someone were to challenge you on it, like, why are you here? What are you trying to accomplish? Why does that matter to you? You'd have good answers that, you know, make you want to be there. Yeah, that's good. So what'd you notice about your new gym? Um, again, I just, I just, so the specific things that I like about it more are it's cleaner in general, and it's just nicer. Everything is well-maintained and taken care of, which I actually don't mind if it's kind of like – if it has that old-school dungeon bodybuilder gym type of feel, I kind of like that. But this other one wasn't that. It was just kind of like a shittily maintained corporate blah gym, right?

Where there's just, you know, kind of messes and it was just dirty and just not well maintained. Like the people didn't really give a fuck. But then also maybe it's the people that I was surrounded by, which I'm not like a person that runs around judging people. So again, I'm just kind of guessing why did I not like being there? I don't have actually a great, I can't say, Oh, it's because, you know, there was this group of 10 people that were always hogging all of the fucking equipment and being lousy, being loud. And well, I don't care about that, but sweating on everything, or it wasn't, it wasn't like that.

I just, there was some fucking, I don't know what that I didn't like. And I didn't really even care to think about it. I just went, I was like, I don't know why it is, but I'm going to go check out a couple other gyms. So I went, I ended up at an Equinox that's close to me where I was just like, this place is nice. I like being here. Everyone is super nice. And it seems like they actually care. They're willing to help you. They'll help you stretch. They'll still talk to you. Um, and the, all the equipment is nice. It's clean. It's well maintained. Um, I just liked the vibe. So I was like, yep. Okay. I don't know. I don't even have to think about it more than that. I'm going here now. Dude, I love that. It's kind of one of these

things someone said before, where if you're not liking your environment, change it. Yes. Yes. And find a place that your, uh, your environment's better suited. I think, I think change of environment can be straight therapeutic depending on the circumstances. No, I completely agree. What was the last time, what's the last time that's happened or what were you thinking? Moving. Uh, so like I didn't particularly like the area I was living at in Florida. I liked a few things about it, but on the whole, um, it just didn't have much to offer in terms of lifestyle. And I like, uh, there were quite a few things that, you know, again, I wasn't on, it's not like I felt like, oh, it was making me unhappy. It's just when I actually thought about it and really because I

have a condo there and I wanted to buy a house. And so I started to talk about it with my wife, Sarah. And I was like, okay, if we're going to buy a house, we're probably at least looking, even if we were to say like, this isn't, this isn't our final home. We're looking at three to five years, but it might stretch out. Maybe it's, we might be looking at a 10 year commitment, you know, to be here, especially as Lennox gets into school and it'd be worse, you know, as he gets older to just pull him out of school. So do we really want to live here? Like, why do we want to live here? What are the pros and cons versus, you know, living somewhere else? And what are our criteria? What, what in terms of, I think, again, I don think again i don't i don't

believe that um living in a certain area is going to quote unquote like you know make you happy or or radically transform your life just in and of itself but i think there again back to this employment environment i think there is something to be said for um the emotional and spiritual value you could say of of the the environment. And it does, it is going to have an effect on you and it's going to have, I mean, this is a kind of a takeaway also from just reading a lot of marketing books that were subconsciously influenced by so many different things. We don't even realize that are around us and that our, our brains or minds or whatever are constantly processing below our levels of awareness. And so again,

coming back to the gym, I didn't like, who knows why I didn't like it. There's a reason why, like there's definitely either there could probably five things of why I just didn't like being there or maybe it's 10. I didn't have to figure them out. I just knew that it's not me just being weird. I feel like I'm a pretty well emotionally balanced person. I don't have, I feel like I'm not like, you know, out of control with irrational behavior and shit. So I just was went with it and I was like, yeah, okay, fine. I'm just going to try something else. So similarly though, when I was looking at living in Florida, I was like, yeah, I think it's fine. I could stay here and I can always enjoy myself.

And I kind of just work and I can play golf. I like to do that. And I have some friends here and shit, but I would feel like I, there's probably somewhere else I would enjoy living more. And, uh, that would for the free time that I do have. And when I do want to go out and eat, you know, in a good restaurant, or I do want to go out and do something outdoors. Uh, it's not always just like the water and the beach, but I can hear, I can go to the mountains. I can go for bike rides through fucking beautiful forests and shit. Um, so in the end, you know, I, I moved, so I left Florida and I came to Virginia and, um, it's, you know, I miss having my family around. Uh, it's nice to see them, see my brothers, see my parents. And that's, that was a known downside

going into it. But I think on the whole, again, it's been a very positive experience for me because I genuinely like living here more even on my drive home. I was just like, this is nice. This is fucking pretty. You know what I mean? Um, or if I'm going to spend it, you know, go spend a Saturday doing stuff with my family where we can go do things that you can't do in Florida. It's not available, at least in the area I was living. Um, and even the, even the, I like, you know, spring is like, this is a real spring. Spring's fucking awesome. Fall falls, very pretty, all the colors changing and shit. They don't have that in Florida winter. I don't mind. It's a two or three month winter. It's not

that big of a deal. So that's an example. I think of a change of environment that has been a little bit therapeutic in a, in a sense for me. Well, I think for the people listening, it's more, they're like, well, I'm not going to move houses just because Mike moved houses. But I think it's more even, you know, your office or your weekends or your morning or whatever it is. Where do you spend your time? Right. I mean, that's your environment. It's where you choose to go. What's your daily, like, where do you go to get coffee? Where do you, yeah. Where, where, where do you work? Where do you live? You know, I think there are probably a lot of people listening that are coming up to whether it's not necessarily leaving the state but you know maybe they're coming up on a lease on or they're looking at selling their house and and you know there can be a big change

even in the same area of finding a a place that you really actually like being that's not just i think that it's cool to to accept good enough in certain things in life. And I think trying to, you know, be a perfectionist in every aspect of life is just going to probably drive you crazy. But I think environment is, is worth the extra time and effort to not just settle for good enough, but really kind of put in the work to try to get it to that where it's decisively positive. Same thing with friends and the people around you. Yeah, no, I think that's a good, it's just, I think sometimes for myself, I just think, oh, this is just a problem and that's how

it is. And I don't, I have to remind myself there's generally always a solution to it. I agree. So to the things that are going on and I have to keep reminding myself, okay, don't accept it, process it, solve it, move forward. I agree. No, I do the same thing where basically, like I always, I think that no matter what the problem is, there is a solution out there. It's out there. And there are probably more than one actually. But you know, all you have to do is somehow get to it.

I truly do believe that. Same thing like when I approaching this book, it's just kind of a mentality that I have going into it where I know that I've, I know I'm onto something with like, I mean, even the things like we're talking about and you're taking some notes and stuff, you're a smart dude. You're, you, you're not, I don't think someone that's necessarily easily, uh, it's not like you've never heard, you've never read a single fucking, you've never been exposed to a good idea and you're like, Oh wow. That, uh, you know, cliche that everyone has heard of is so mind blowing to me. Um, but so I feel like I'm onto something and I'm going at it

with the a hundred percent like certainty that this book, this perfect book that I, I know, like I know it's out there and I have confidence that I can I can get to it and I don't I don't think I'm there yet with the concept and you know whatever but I know that that this can become like what Steven Pressfield has done for creatives with with the war of art or what Rotella has done for golf with, um, golf is not a game of perfect. What DeSena has done for, uh, for obstacle racers with Spartan up what Dan John has done for strength and Olympic strength athletes, Olympic lifters with never let go. Uh, what Galloway has done for tennis players with the inner game of tennis. This can be done for just the general

fitness crowd. And, um, so that's the way I'm going at it of like, this book exists. Someone can write this book and Hey, why not me? Right? Yeah. Why not? Hey there, it's Mike again. I hope you enjoyed this episode and found it interesting and helpful. And if you did, and don't mind doing me a favor, then please do leave a quick review on iTunes or wherever you're listening from. This helps other people find their way to the show and learn how to build their best bodies ever as well. And of course, if you want to be notified when the next episode goes live, then simply subscribe to the podcast and you won't miss out on new episodes. And if you

didn't like something about the show, then definitely shoot me an email at Mike at muscle for life. And that's just spelled out muscle, F O R life.com and share your thoughts on how I can make this better. I read everything myself and I'm always looking for constructive feedback. So thanks again for listening to this episode. And I hope to hear from you soon. Oh, and before you leave, let me quickly tell you about one other product of mine that I think you might like. Specifically, my 100% natural post-workout supplement Recharge. Recharge helps you gain muscle and strength faster and recover better from your workouts. And it's also naturally sweetened and flavored, and it contains no artificial food dyes, fillers, or other unnecessary junk.

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