Muscle for Life with Mike Matthews - What Maariana Learned Beating Cancer and Getting in the Best Shape of Her Life

Episode Date: October 25, 2019

This is part two of my interview with Maariana, who used my Bigger Leaner Stronger program to gain over 20 pounds of muscle, fit into her college clothes again, and even improve her career as an opera singer. In case you missed the first part interview, it ended with Maariana revealing that she was diagnosed with breast cancer shortly after starting Bigger Leaner Stronger. I couldn’t end the discussion there, of course, and so on it went, which is what you’re about to hear. In this part of the interview, Maariana talks about her battle with cancer and how she refused to take it lying down and instead chose to view it as a challenge and opportunity to become stronger, inside and out. This meant regular physical training in the gym alongside her treatments as well as deep research into behavioral psychology to find practical techniques for elevating mood, boosting willpower, and reinforcing resolve (and she shares some of her favorites in our discussion). So if you’re looking for a jolt of inspiration or like hearing motivational stories, I highly recommend listening to part one of this interview and then tuning in to this episode. 4:57 - How did you have the energy to exercise while battling cancer? 33:35 - Where did you get the idea of making an app? 36:11 - What are some examples of mental exercises? 52:49 - What are some examples of a learning mindset? Mentioned on The Show: Legion VIP one-on-one coaching: https://legionathletics.com/coaching/ Maariana's website: https://maariana.com/ Maariana's app: https://fulfillapp.com/ Want to get my best advice on how to gain muscle and strength and lose fat faster? Sign up for my free newsletter! Click here: https://www.legionathletics.com/signup/

Hey, Mike here. And if you like what I'm doing on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please consider checking out my VIP one-on-one coaching service where we can help you get in the best shape of your life. My team and I have helped people of all ages, circumstances, and needs. So no matter how complicated or maybe even hopeless you might think your situation is, we will figure it out and we will get you results. Every diet and every training program is 100% custom. We provide daily workout logs and do weekly accountability calls. Our clients get priority email service and discounts on supplements and other products, and the list of benefits goes on and on. So to learn more, head over to www.legionathletics.com slash coaching. That's legionathletics.com slash coaching and schedule your free consultation call. I should also mention that there is usually a wait list and new slots do fill up very quickly. So do not wait. If this sounds even remotely interesting to you, go ahead and schedule your call now. Again, that URL is legionathletics.com slash coaching. Good day, dear listener. I am Mike Matthews. This is Muscle

for Life and welcome to a new episode. Now, this one is part two of my interview with Mariana, who used my Bigger, Leaner, Stronger program to dramatically transform her physique, to fit into her old college clothes again, and even to improve her career as an opera singer, which was an unexpected but welcome benefit. Now, in case you missed the first part of the interview, it ended with Mariana revealing that she was actually diagnosed with breast cancer shortly after starting bigger leaner stronger and of course i couldn't end the discussion there and so on it went for some time which is why i decided to split this interview into two parts and in this second part you're going to hear her talk about her battle with cancer and how she refused to take it lying down and instead chose to view it as a challenge and opportunity to become stronger both inside and out.

And this meant regular physical training in the gym alongside her treatments, as well as deep research into behavioral psychology to find practical techniques for elevating mood, boosting willpower, and reinforcing resolve. And yes, she does share several of her favorites in our discussion. So if you are looking for a jolt of inspiration, or if you just like hearing motivational stories of other people improving their lives, listen to the first part of this interview, and then listen to the second part. And if you don't have the time to listen to part one, you can listen to part two. And I think you're going to enjoy it without having the context of the first bit of the interview. All right, here it is. First thing I just want to say also, we didn't unfortunately get to this because we had so many other interesting things to talk about, but I'm a breast cancer survivor.

Because you didn't bring it up, I thought maybe you didn't want to talk about it. So that's why I didn't mention it. No, not at all. Oh, my goodness, no. No, no, no. The weight training was so incredibly phenomenal during the toughest time of my life. You know, it was kind of fun before getting the body that I wanted, but the most horrible thing about breast cancer is it makes you feel completely unattractive as a woman. Other cancers definitely have their drawbacks. You don't realize until you

get it how much you feel like your body is under attack and that you feel so unattractive. So it was very interesting the day of my diagnosis. I do have to share this story with you because you're part of it. The day of my diagnosis was April 2018. And I left the doctor's appointment and I was walking down Sixth Avenue and you are not a New Yorker until you've cried in public. I haven't heard that before, but I like that. And yes, it's very true. Once you've cried in public, because the thing is we're on an island here, we're all friends. So I'm walking down Sixth Avenue and I'm uncontrollably crying and I'm trying to figure out, you know, this is just, it's such a, I've been healthy all my life. So the idea that, you know, I've had a pescatarian diet and I did work out, even though it wasn't your program, I'm just overwhelmed. And my boyfriend sent me the podcast you did with Mark

Ripto and where he discussed someone in his gym that was going through chemotherapy. And the doctors said that, you know, you're dying. And Mark Ripto was like, you are still making gains. So that means you're healthy. So we use that as our inspiration throughout my cancer. So during that, it was all about throwing on the weights, throwing on the weights, throwing on the weights. How did you have the energy? I mean, what was your treatment like?

It was hard. So first I had a lobectomy. And then after that, I had radiation. And radiation was horrific. So what I would do is work out in the morning, then have my radiation treatment. And then after that, I was wiped. I've never felt that I was in so much pain and I was so exhausted. And the morning it was like, get to the gym, because there was actually interesting study I was reading about how we spend 47% of our time with the inner monologue in our head. And what we think about during that time has a real effect on our life satisfaction. Once you had cancer, that inner monologue

goes bonkers. You have to get it under control. So it was like, this is how we're going to do it is I'm going to most days I could work out in the morning, a couple days, it was like, okay, I'm just going to walk on the treadmill. But it was to keep throwing on weight. By the way, to the day of my diagnosis, you were our first joke. And how did that work? This was like, I'm on Sixth Avenue. I'm in the corner of a building following me. I was out trying to listen to the podcast because I can't even walk home. I'm just so sort of distraught. So I listened to the podcast and I was texting my boyfriend and I'm Apple. He's Android. He sent me, oh my gosh, it was so funny. He sent me the,

I guess a link where there's Mark Riptoe standing with his collared shirt and his arms crossed and you're standing, you kind of just brought this up with your branding and you're standing in your, I hope this is so mean, I'm so sorry, but I had cancer so I can get away with it. You're standing in all greased up glory. And I said, oh my goodness, honey, how much money Mike Matthews must save in shirts. We've actually started moving away from those pictures. You know, you know, what's funny, you know, what's funny is the reason why we've used them was not, you'd think it's just because I'm a complete narcissist and I just, I just love how everything looks. That wasn't actually the case. I was thinking it was like, well, I mean, I got to show that I'm in shape, right?

Why would anybody want to listen to somebody who's not in shape? And I really didn't think about it much further than that. But I've had a number of people reach out regarding, it was regarding, let's see, the podcast image, which we changed. And then even the cookbook where I'm shirtless on the cookbook, which again, was the same thought. I didn't really, I was like, yeah, I'm a fitness guy. I'm supposed to show that I'm fit. I don't know. Take your shirt off. There you go. Look fit. That's actually how that came about. But now I've realized that it's not entirely necessary. Like you can still see that someone's fit if their shirt is on and it still matters to some degree. Like it wouldn't

make sense for me to wear sweaters in all of baggy sweatshirts in all my pictures, but I don't need to be shirtless everywhere to be taken seriously. Then we knew like, it's like, okay, we can find humor in this situation. We're going to be okay. So I know in doing like I would crave, that's when I really crave the weight training. And the thing is, as I was saying about my appetite on days that I was hungrier, I knew I needed to eat more. I knew that my body needed extra nutrients for healing. So that was incredibly important. You know, before it was sort of a convenience, you know, it's just incredibly important. So, and it was sort of this physical manifestation of how I was going to deal with this situation. So for me,

like a lot of, again, my neurobiology, I actually have a behavioral app that I've been working with my boyfriend. So we started this business and it was really nice because I could use a lot of, again, my neurobiology, I actually have a behavioral app that I've been working with my boyfriend. So we started this business. And it was really nice because I could use a lot of the research all of a sudden with this cancer diagnosis. So it was turning this tragedy, terrible circumstance into something that makes you stronger and more resilient. And it sounds kind of cheesy, but it is so vital when you're looking at making these crazy decisions. I will never be intimidated by a high note ever again in my entire life because I have this inner strength that came from the situation.

When I sort of needed a boost from that mental strength, it was that morning workout of, you know what? I did some deadlifts this morning, so I'm still a fighter. I can fight through this. And then again, throughout this whole process, just getting even stronger and stronger. So this is when I really picked up my weights, which is crazy. You know, women coming up to me in the gym, complimenting my body, when again, you're feeling so unattractive. There's so many times women would come up to me and say like, Oh my gosh, your arms are amazing, or your body's amazing. And I could barely make it out to the sidewalk and just start crying

because it was like, okay, I'm still attractive. I'm still like, and it's just, it shakes you so much to your core that you don't even realize the correlation you talk a lot about with success and weight training. And it's all these things like persistence and bouncing back from failure and perseverance and grit that are so important in life and life skills. So it was nice to have that physical manifestation of that and then putting that into, and again, luckily I'd done some research on this already for my business, so I could put that easily into this crazy situation that I was facing. put that easily into this crazy situation that I was facing. I know you had a podcast with Pat Flynn and like his book on generalism, like he talks about happiness as a skill, business as a skill. Like it's sort of our choice to feel frustrated or trapped by a situation. And you

can, Walter Mischel has these great experiments with marshmallows and he talks about reframing a situation. Like the weight training also helped with this whole concept of being of strength and inner strength and outer strength and how they go together. And that I was going to make it through this situation. And I was going to be like, I was never going to look on it, look back on it and be bitter and angry that I went through it. I was going to look at it as an opportunity, as a challenge. And so I was able to do that. And then on top of that, I actually want to write a book about my experience because sadly, as you were speaking about before, so much information that doctors give you is incorrect. So I actually was going through the NCCN, which is the organization that gives the cancer protocols. I never in a million years

would have done radiation had I known how damaging it was. And it did threaten my career. If I'd only done the surgery, I would have been out for three weeks. Because I did the radiation, I had to step away from my career for a year and a half. I had to get two extra surgeries. I did hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And for anyone listening who knows anybody who's suffering from radiation damage, run to a hyperbaric oxygen therapy place. The place I went to in New York was absolutely phenomenal. Feel free to contact me if anybody needs any help. But how sort of radiation colleges deal with cancer is they don't give you any information. When you walk into an office and you have stage one cancer, they say, okay, you are either going to get a mastectomy or you're going to get a lumpectomy and you have to

get radiation. And they don't say, oh, it's recommended. They say have. And you're thinking if an oncologist is telling you that you have to get this, you think it's going to save your life. Meanwhile, after doing research into this, once you get your cancer removed, the only thing that radiation or chemotherapy do is if there happens to be a cancer cell left over, it will kill it. But at the main time, it's going to damage your skin, it's going to damage your tissue, it's going

to damage your muscle, it's going to damage your ribs, It's going to damage your muscle. It's going to damage your ribs. It's going to damage your lungs. And it's going to permanently damage your heart, because I had mine on the left side. I was not told that beforehand. And upon doing research just through surgery, the likelihood that I ever get cancer again is 90%. So I'm safe. And the radiation only lifted that by 7%. You were not able to make that cost-benefit analysis base. If you would have known that, you would have been like, nah, I think I'll take my chances. And it should be up to the patient to decide if it's worth it. And if you want to get that risk of recurrence down to 2% or 3%, great. That's your choice.

And you know about all the damage. And what about other things you can do also to reduce your risk of ever having to experience that again, lifestyle, like exercising regularly and eating well. And there are a number of supplements that have known anti-cancer properties, stuff that you, in some cases you can get through food. In other cases you can't, or it's a bit hard because you'd have to eat a lot, but there are definitely natural things you can do to make your body more capable. Yes. Yeah. There's some great studies. There's a podcast I like called Science Versus,

and they just did one on exercise and they talked about how hard it is to lose weight using just exercise. But when you have cancer, how much exercising during cancer will actually slow down the tumor cells. There's the, oh, what are they? I can't think of the name right now, but there's a specific cell that's released and it is one of the few cells that actually can get into a cancer tumor. I can send you the information and will slow down a cancer tumor's progress. And so then of course, what does that say about, I mean, because we all have cancerous cells in our bodies. Yeah. It's just our bodies, our immune systems are able to get rid of them before they become a problem.

Yes. And no, I definitely, I mean, I would have done the surgery, but I actually, for me, it was because this personal, but I want women to know it's because there was a study that came out December 2018, no, 17, 2017, that was about the pill. And I've been on birth control pill for 20 years. And that's basically how I got my cancer. And I did that because it really helped my singing. And because, you know, everyone said it was completely safe. I mean, this is the scary thing is when you go to a doctor's office, and you this is sort of the secret, they don't tell you, they don't know how to read studies, they don't know how to do statistical analysis.

I'll second that. I've had a number of interactions and I don't say this to just speak badly of doctors in general, but because there are plenty of good doctors out there who have put in the work to be able to understand scientific research, but there are many who have not and who, because of their position, in some cases, doctors who went to very prestigious schools and they have no fucking idea how to interpret research. There are a couple instances where I was like, whoa, this is kind of fucked up that this person is in a position where they are dictating the health outcomes of, you know, many, many people over many, many years, and they actually don't know what they're doing. Like they don't know how to read a study. You go through basic terminology and they couldn't

explain what even some of the basic terminology means. We're talking particularly about statistical analysis and even study design and methodology. No, it's kind of terrifying. So I brought this study up to an oncologist and she said, oh no, it's not that big of a deal. And my boyfriend is an economist, so he's able to go through studies. And so we were able to sort of determine, I feel like doctors should say, I don't know, like if you don't know, but also oncologists, you know, I can see surgeons not doing that. But oncologists, they aren't doing the chemotherapy, they have techs that do that. So they're in their office all day, and their job is to give you a treatment plan. And so it's

incredibly frustrating when they don't know the information. And I kind of figured that out soon after. And then I would start bringing information. And here I am, an opera singer and an entrepreneur, and I'm telling them as a woman, oh, was so funny, 50 friends sent this to me. It was that chemotherapy was being overused on early breast cancer patients. Just guess by how much percent where it had no effect on their cancer. Just guess how much doctors were over using chemotherapy. 80%. You're close, 70%. That was actually my first guess. Oh. Your guess. Oh, it was good. But I mean, that's crazy. If chemotherapy is a, thing is with radiation chemotherapy, these are poisons and they're burning your body.

Your body will never recover from them. And right now, actually, there's a woman in my boyfriend's gym who out in Abu Dhabi who has heart problems. It's a common side effect of chemotherapy 10 years out. Like, and a friend of mine who had chemotherapy, there is a blood clot where her port is. So since her cancer treatment, she's been on blood thinners and everything trying to get rid of this. You know, every time you do a medical intervention, there are consequences.

And it was so frustrating because then I was, and the others, there was a study that came out in 2014 about how women who get lumpectomy and radiation are in pain for a year. The majority of women will have moderate to severe pain for a year. I was one of them. It's horrible. I know you did a podcast on sleep and you're talking about like certain things that get in the way of sleep. I never knew chronic pain, like the torture of not being able to sleep for months on end is terrible. And then you go back to these oncologists and they're like, well, I cured your cancer. I'm like, well, first of all, you didn't because you've no idea if I still have cancer when you gave me radiation. And then what do I do? And

then that's when you start doing this research where again, I found the hyperbaric oxygen therapy I found on like chat rooms. And I literally asked one of my doctors about hyperbaric and he said, oh no, that only works for burn victims. Meanwhile, it's FDA approved for radiation damage. And I, when I did that, I felt a difference in three days. Anyone out there like this is people do not know about this. Doctors don't know about this. It is so phenomenal. I've heard about it, but I haven't looked into it all. I haven't really commented on it because I haven't looked at it. I don't know. I'm sure there's some research on it. There must be an FDA for that, but I haven't looked into on it because I haven't looked at it. I don't know. I'm sure there's some research on it. There must be an FDA for that, but I haven't looked into it all.

So, you know, I didn't know, is it something that's legitimate or is it kind of like a cryotherapy thing, which doesn't really, doesn't really do that much really. It is the science. Yeah. Oh no, I know it's different in terms of the protocol, but in terms of effectiveness, you know, like, yeah, maybe cryotherapy will reduce inflammation a little bit, but you do better off just sitting in an ice bath for six minutes. Like that's going to work a lot better if that's what you're trying to accomplish, you know, in the case of radiation, it rebuilds blood vessels, it literally rebuilds

blood vessels. So all of the scarring and the scar tissue, and I had severe shoulder problems, because the muscles got so fibrotic from the radiation from literally being cooked that it was amazing. I worked with a fantastic PT. Again, if anyone needs this information living in New York who's dealing with cancer, please contact me. It was absolutely phenomenal. Not only that, for recovery, so my first reconstruction surgery was in April. Before that, I had had an infected wisdom tooth, an infected compacted wisdom tooth, and I only took Tylenol.

After my first reconstruction surgery, for the first time ever in my life, had to take Oxycontin or however you say it because it felt like my ribs were broken. I was in so much pain. And so for 10 days, I was taking this like highly narcotic pill, which I did not want to take,

but it was the only way I could get through. I'd never been through it. And I've been thrown off horses, ski crashes after this surgery was awful. And I was incredibly swollen, incredibly damaged. My second reconstruction surgery was during my oxygen therapy and on the 20th of this month. So I'm only three weeks out about. So I saw my surgeon the beginning of this week, two and a half weeks out from surgery. And she said, you look like someone who is six weeks out from surgery.

Your body has healed so quickly. And on top of that, I came home and I just took Tylenol. What it does is it actually puts your body into hyper healing. And there are some studies that show that it actually does kill cancer cells. And you feel it because like, my gosh, my skin was glowing after the first week of doing it. One of my friends was like, what is going on with your skin? And my nails were growing, my hair was growing. So your body goes into this hyper healing mode because you have this pressurized oxygen. And there's, I'll send you some information about it, but it is absolutely phenomenal. And studies have shown also that when you do it while you're doing radiation, it actually

voids all the radiation damage. So again, I do not know why it's not part of the standard cancer treatment. And I actually asked the NCCN this, I wrote them and said, gave them all the studies on hyperbaric. I said, why isn't this part of standard treatment? It kills cancer cells. Or if people want to do radiation, then it will negate the damage. And they wrote me back and said, oh, well, if you'd like to submit it, you can.

And I was like, you're in charge of cancer protocols. And you're not like, oh, my gosh, this information is amazing. And it's also crazy because here I am, an entrepreneur and a opera singer telling you a cancer organization about a treatment. So A, you either don't know, which is horrific, or you don't care. Like you've heard about it, but you haven't. The other thing too is hyperbaric is not that profitable. Chemotherapy and radiation are much more profitable. I don't want to get into too much of what I think is behind it, but I will say the New York Times reported this year, three doctors from Memorial Sloan Kettering

have been fired, the head of their breast cancer department as well, because of undisclosed financial ties. So if you do lumpectomy, chemotherapy, and radiation, usually costs about three quarters of a million dollars. Holy shit. So cancer is like, yeah, it's a huge industry. Whereas someone who's doing hyperbaric, it'll only cost between 40 and $60,000. So they don't make a lot of money off of it. You have to have a hundred thousand dollar tank. Whereas chemotherapy, you just have to have IV. If you're doing radiation, it's only 15 minutes. Hyperbaric, it's very time consuming. You're in there for two hours. Hyperbaric medical Solutions. They have two offices in Long Island and one in New York on 32nd Street.

And also there's a lot of research on the placebo effect. These people, like anywhere else that I went for cancer treatment, always had smiles on their faces, always were caring, always were lovely. So going there was also a joy and I was comfortable. Whereas a lot of times, you know, you go to a doctor's office and it's just very uncomfortable. They see you, they, because you're a woman, a lot of times that they sort of discount a lot of what you're going through. And to have a place where I was like, whatever my concerns are, they are going to solve them. Plus they're just, they're phenomenal and

know what they're doing. There was such a variety of people. Like the last week I was there, there was a kid who was six and I saw him go, like, I'm getting a little choked up. I saw him go in, he was in pain and to see him a week after not in pain. And he was smiling and playing like, it's just, it's so definitely there's a number of things that it, it fixes, but it is just, it's a phenomenal therapy that nobody knows about. And it's, the thing is it's hyper healing rather than damaging. Again, all the other cancer treatment is damaging. Whereas this is something using your body's peeling process and putting it into hyperdrive. So I know a lot of athletes do it, but it just, I'm actually a little worried now that I haven't done it for a week. I'm like, oh my gosh, is my face going to all of a sudden collapse? I mean, luckily I look younger than I am. No one would ever think I'm my age, but like all of a sudden

my boyfriend's much younger than me. And I was like, honey, we match now for the first time. This is great. And then, you know, just my skin and my nails and my hair looking amazing. And you can see it when you leave, like your skin is sort of this pink splotchy because the blood has just been activated. It was so funny. They were laughing at me because I came in on day three and I really wasn't like, I was kind of talking to him, but I was like, all right, yep. I'm excited for the tank. Let's do this. Cause I, this was my last hope. I was in so much pain. And day four, I walked in and I said, you guys, I slept last night for the first time in a year and a half. I slept like 10 hours. And they were kind of like, okay, like, well, they didn't really know what was going on. And then the next week I explained because I'd gotten some sleep and said,

yeah, I have been in pain for a year and a half. I did a surgery. It kind of worked. Some of it made it worse. Like this saved me. And thank goodness I just found this like on a chat room, which that's part of the book as well that I want to actually give women information that if you read these, the chat rooms, these poor women are suffering, and they're going to doctors. And again, I was told by doctors, oh, no, that doesn't work for radiation. Meanwhile, it's FDA approved for radiation. So doctors don't know. And instead of saying, I don't know, like, please just say, I don't know, rather than, oh, that's not for you. Because it's really hard, again, when you're not a medical

professional, and you're like, I'm going to go against my oncologist's advice. I'm going to do the research on my own. Like, this is why I'm coming to see an expert. One of the plastic surgery places I went to, there was a nurse who she had had a double mastectomy. And we were talking about how radiation oncologists do not give patients information. And she said, Oh, let's start a letter writing campaign. And we'll change changes so that there's a law in New York City that patients need to be informed of the inevitable side effects and the possible side effects because they're very severe. They can really, for me, they took away, I don't want to say take away year of my life, because again, there were wonderful things that happened during that time.

But I didn't need to be in pain for a year and a half. So she gave me her email. And then I heard nothing from her. And I went back to the office. And she was very defensive. And she probably had told doctors like, oh, we're going to change this. We want radiation oncologists to talk to the patients. And she said to me, she said, well, if you ask a doctor questions, they have to answer them. And I said, let me ask you when you had, we're going through your

radiation treatment, the questions that you asked the doctor based on your nursing degree. And she said, yes. You have to know what questions to ask. I mean, yes. In order to ask like another great business in New York is called the finery and they remove tattoos. Would you ever think in a million years that you get tattoos during the radiation process? And luckily, I contacted them, they remove tattoos for cancer victims for free. And they do it actually for other, they do it for people who've gone to prison. So they're like a great business that is trying to help out cancer patients. And, you know, they saved me like $1,000 getting rid of these tattoos that I didn't want on my body. I was never given sort of that choice. It was like, oh, no, you have to

do this. And you're scared and you think that it's the right thing to do. And then to go through that experience and then be like, okay, I need to live a normal life now. How do I do that? And they don't have the information for you. And again, it's like, well, you should be happy that your cancer's gone. And I'm like, yeah, but I can't live my life. So what was the point of getting rid of the cancer if you've now left me with chronic pain and scarring and issues and third degree burns and everything else? So we really need to have sort of a conversation. So that's why, yeah, I'm going to write this book so that I can give women and other doctors outside of the cancer area have actually supported me and said, please, because our patients come to us and we don't know what to tell them because it's not their area of expertise. Yeah, no, that sounds

like a great project. Do you plan on self-publishing it or what are your plans on distribution? That's what I was thinking was self-publishing. Let me know once you have, I would say probably a good time to talk. I'm not, I mean, I'll just help you. I'm not saying I don't want anything for it, but I've self-published all of my stuff. I've turned down every publisher at this point because it just made more sense to keep self-publishing. Although I will probably end up doing a quote unquote traditional deal, but it'll be mostly for just trying to make a big publicity splash. Because if I'm purely looking at it financially, then it makes more sense to just do it myself. But if I want to try to leverage the additional distribution that traditional publishers can bring, and just the fact that it's published

by Simon & Schuster can open publicity PR doors that otherwise would just remain closed. However, when you do get to the point of, I'd say, having at least the first draft of your manuscript done, let me know. And I'd be happy to advise. Oh, my goodness. I have someone, an editor, who I really like. She does really good work. If you need help there. Cover design, which really matters.

Just some of the marketing stuff. Having a great book is one thing. But having a great book plus great marketing just makes it way more successful. Oh, definitely. That's what I'm learning with my other business and also with opera is now trying to actually take, especially the opera world, take over the marketing myself, because it doesn't matter if you have a great product, if no one can find you. No, that's definitely true. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for that offer. That's absolutely phenomenal. Totally. I appreciate that very much. Absolutely.

much for that offer. That's absolutely phenomenal. Totally. I appreciate that very much. Absolutely. Hey, before we continue, if you like what I'm doing here on the podcast and elsewhere, and if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please do consider picking up one of my best selling health and fitness books. My most popular ones are Bigger Leaner Stronger for Men, Thinner Leaner Stronger for Women, my flexible dieting cookbook, The Shredded Chef, and my 100% practical hands-on blueprint for personal transformation, The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation. Now, these books have sold well over 1 million copies and have helped thousands of people build their best body ever. And you can find them anywhere online where you can buy books like Amazon, Audible, iTunes, Kobo, and Google play as well as in select Barnes and Noble stores.

So again, that is bigger, leaner, stronger for men, thinner, leaner, stronger for women, the shredded chef, and the little black book of Men, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger for Women, The Shredded Chef, and The Little Black Book of Workout Motivation. Oh, and one other thing is you can get any one of those audio books 100% free when you sign up for an Audible account. And that's a great way to make those pockets of downtime like commuting, meal prepping, and cleaning more interesting, entertaining, and productive. Now, if you want to take Audible up on that offer and get one of my audio books for free, just go to legionathletics.com slash Audible and sign up for your account. So you mentioned earlier that you have an app for anybody anybody who's wondering, what's the name of the app?

And I'm assuming the business is built around the app. Yeah. So it's called the Fulfill app. And we're currently on the Google Play Store. And hopefully by the time this is published, we will be on the Apple Store as well. Anyone in app development right now knows what I'm talking about. I know firsthand. I have a workout app that has become, I guess the term that comes to mind is a white elephant. Everybody doesn't know what that term is. It's something that possession whose

costs far outweigh its benefits. But at this point, I've already put a lot of money and time into it that I'm actually, I've come full circle and I'm excited for, because we're about to release a second 2.0 of the app. That's really a complete, a complete overhaul, a complete new look, new UI, new UX, new everything. I'm just going to make it a 100% free. I'm going to continue developing it and just leave it free because I figure why not? I have these other things that I can make money with. And if this just brings more people into my ecosystem, so to speak, that works for me. And so if somebody downloads, I figure like this 2.0 is going to be, I'd say,

just as good as the best paid apps for planning and tracking workouts, but it's going to be free that people are pretty excited about that where they're like, oh, wow, this is for a free app. This is actually really good. What else does this guy have? That's my app strategy, but I understand the pain of developing an app. I haven't built a house, but from what I hear from people who have built houses, it seems very similar. You go into it with a plan and then your plan goes to shit. There are a million things that you didn't think of and like what color should the doorknob be on the fifth bedroom bathroom door? And then, of course, there's the time and there's the budget. Yeah.

I mean, again, this sort of goes back. I do enjoy Pat Flynn's book on generalism because I actually love it now because every day, like today, I knew I was going to have to figure out how to be on a podcast and how to get that to work. And it kind of worked. We had some issues. But I love this. Nothing is in a void. So as you're saying, like the design is something, the contents are something, how you're going to deliver,

the UX, the UI, everything that's so important. My advice is you meet the man of your dreams, he gets you into shape, and then also you become business partners. It's that simple. So that's how it works for us. Just press that simple. So that's how it works for us. Just press that button. And he had already knew how to code. He had taught himself how to code. And actually the very first day, we didn't talk about his apps, but we did talk. I had this kernel of this idea. I have a neurobiology degree. And basically it came from wanting to feel more empowered in my life. There's times that I was frustrated and I felt really trapped by my circumstances. And I think we all feel that way. And living in New York, I meet people

of all different walks of life. There's always that sort of something missing. I was actually, I was listening to your Noah Kagan podcast and how he was saying the guys at Facebook, once they sort of got what they wanted and were able to travel the world, they felt really lost. And immediately I was thinking, because I've done this research, oh, that's miswanting, which is our brain thinking like, oh, if I get that promotion or if I get that new house, that's going to make me happy. And then the hedonic treadmill rearing its ugly head, which is that we adjust to our new normal so quickly. So I was trying to figure out how there wasn't any product out there that was giving people the information or they were giving the information,

but not in a way that was useful. Most of the self-help and self-improvement falls victim to, have you ever heard of the GI Joe fallacy? Nope. Okay. So this is from Yale researchers and it's basically, luckily you're immune from it. People know they have to go to the gym if they want to get a good body. But people watch a TED Talk or read an article about some behavior modification. And they're like, yay, tomorrow morning, I'm going to wake up and I'm going to be- Yeah, I'm better now. I'm better now.

And it doesn't happen. They wake up the next morning and the same thing happens. And it's so funny how we think, okay, yes, we have to work on that. Why GI Joe? Is it because there's things like knowing is half the battle or something? There you go. Oh, I figured it out. I used to watch GI Joe as a kid. So that's where it came from, is that knowledge is not half the battle. Knowledge is like, okay, great, I know, but how do I implement it? So it's like learning a language or learning an instrument or picking up a new sport. You have to put in the time, you have to put in that daily practice. So it uses metacognition,

which you call in your book, the pause and plan response. So it's that taking that step back and looking at, okay, how can I be more objective? How can I reframe the situation so that it's an advantage? A lot of it was, there's a Nobel Prize winner, James Heckman, who talks a lot about character. And again, this goes back to that list of success, which is what are these traits that actually can be developed that can help you live a more successful life. And then there's so much research on happiness, and it is an active thing that you have to do. So what our app does is breaks it down into these daily exercises that rewire your brain for gratitude, rewire your brain for happiness, rewire your brain for stepping out of your comfort zone. What's an example of one of these exercises? So this is the funny thing is the

app was never designed for cancer. It was designed for normal life. So the annoying thing was annoying slash wonderful thing is, you know, I'd be dealing with something and I'm like, okay, my boyfriend would say, well, what would the app tell you to do? So for me, radiation, as I said, was incredibly difficult. So about in March this year, I was in the gym and all of a sudden I just, again, thank you for all the guys that are being so cool. I just kind of started tearing up. And it was this overwhelming feeling of basically, I mean, the only way to put it is

six weeks of physical torture of radiation. And that it was just really, for some reason, months later, it was hitting me really hard. I was using the tool reframing. And so what I thought was, okay, we have to figure out a new way to think about this. So it empowers you instead of brings you down and scares you. And you just sort of relive the horror of the situation. And I thought I made it through six weeks of torture. What a badass I am. Oh, my goodness. That is so incredibly amazing.

It's terrible. But how many people on this earth have been through something that extreme? I got through that. And here I am in the gym and I'm fine. Like it's wonderful. Another like small example is if you're making a decision and you're having trouble being objective. Think about what if your friend was in a situation and they had to make the exact same decision that you have to make, what advice would you give them? And it's amazing. It's called self-distancing. It's amazing that once you do that, like how you can be more objective and take the emotions out of it and make a much better decision. Another way of making decisions is to take your time and walk yourself

through. If you have to make big decision and there's two different variables, walk yourself through each variable. What does that really look like for you? Because it's very hard for us, through each variable. What does that really look like for you? Because it's very hard for us, very hard for our brains to really grasp what making a big decision is like. The other thing with making decisions is make sure you're not hungry. There's an interesting study on- I would add, or tired. Yeah, tired. Treat yourself like a kid. Are they acting wonky? They're probably hungry and or tired. Yeah, there was an interesting study on a parole board.

And if you are up for parole the hour before lunch, you didn't get parole. It was down to like 3%. If you were up for parole after lunch, it went up to 60%. And that's your blood sugar. Your frontal lobe takes a lot of energy. And if you're worried about making a decision and you're hungry or you're tired, it's going to get in the way of making a decision. Also, if you've just been worried about making a decision and you're hungry or you're tired, it's going to get in the way of making a decision. Also, if you've just been obsessing about a decision, it's going to make it harder. So do something fun. Take some time away, like just paint or go for a walk or something that you really enjoy where your brain, like me, weight training, where your brain can get a break. I mean, I had to make so many decisions during this and to have that

workout in the morning where I got some positive energy, where it managed a lot of the pain because of the adrenaline boost from working out, I was able to be more objective later in the day. So having that time that you can distance yourself from making those decisions. It's really exciting because it is specific skills and tools that you can work on. And then we also have a part of the app that is help right now, which is you're going through something. We have a number of situations on there and you can click right onto that and it will give you that guidance that you need. Like if you're having negative self-talk and you just can't get out of the loop of negative self-talk. It's going to walk you through how to break that cycle.

So there's sort of a long-term project. There's over 300 challenges on it. And then there's also this other area. We are going to add some information on there at some point, but with the disclaimer that, okay, just because you read this article, this is not going to change anything. But you can at least give them something they can do right away. There can be a call to action at the end of that article. Like, okay, so you've just understood the why and the what and the how, and now it's

time to do it. Here, go do this. Well, that's actually, that's how our, the daily challenges are set up. We give you the challenge and then right away we give you the information of why you're doing this challenge, which makes it then much more difficult to say no to the challenge because you know it's going to help you and you know that it's going to cause change over time. And I mean, it was kind of crazy that I got to test out my own app, but it really does work. There's a section on about bouncing back from difficult situations and how you find the silver line. There's so many amazing

things that happened. My mother-in-law is a breast cancer survivor as well. We bonded like crazy. She is fantastic. And had this situation not happened, I would not have the relationship that I have with her. And she's so wonderful. And I wouldn't have gotten to know her if this, you know, this craziness had happened. So there's always a way, there's always a way to develop gratitude. This week was so fun. I finally got to wear a completely normal outfit in a year and a half. I wore jeans and I wore a sweater and I actually felt confident because everything from the two surgeries had taken hold and my body's now coming back. It's all these little things that we sort of forget about. You know, when I would go to the tank

and see these little kids, there was one evening I was walking and I said, Oh, I'm so tired of cancer treatment. I was at like session 40. I did 60 sessions. And when I got there, there was one of the boys was there and he's in the tank for two hours and he's fine. So I need to stop complaining. But it's taking that moment of like, okay, no, he's in a worse situation than I am. I'm really lucky because this is working and I'm going to enjoy my time relaxing while I'm in there. Like shifting that focus again, that 47% of our day is spent on that monologue in our head. And if you can shift that focus to things that are more positive, the things that are more empowering, it just bleeds into every area of your life. So, and again, like your book, all of ours, the other thing we didn't do is we had

nothing based on conjecture. Everything is from scientific behavioral studies. So we made sure that there is proof behind it. The other reason we did an app was also that we could change, as you said, with your vitamins. If there's new research that comes out that something's more effective or something isn't as good as we thought, then we can take it off the app and then add new information, new daily challenges on the app. The thing that's different about app building than a house is that you're always optimizing your app. This is why I look a lot of entrepreneurs like, oh, I just need to fundraise $70,000

and then I can build an app. No, the original app that you thought you were going to build is never the final product. You're always going to have to iterate, iterate, iterate. The whole business was sort of crazy because we decided not to raise funding. We decided it was going to be the two of us building this business. And then I had my cancer diagnosis. So here, a business partner is taking over so much of the business. So it's also just like a testament to everything we learned that we were, we were thrown all of these challenges and we're like, no, we're still going to put this together and release it for other people to help other people. Yeah. It's amazing. You should definitely,

I think dive into a lot of the stuff you just discussed in the book. Okay. Yeah. It makes it now it's part memoir, part self-help, but it's also actually your story. It actually is what you went through. And for the marketing in the app as well, I pulled up your website. I would consider working in you're the face of it. And here's the story behind the app, just because it's compelling. And you're in a unique position where you can say things that are true and even that are evidence-based, but the fact that you went through what you went through, that's what really, it gives you the credibility, so to speak. Like, you know, someone who hasn't

experienced anything all that traumatic, they could say the same things, but then people who are going through traumatic stuff could just be like, well, what does this person know? Like he or she, they've had it so easy, but they can't say that. I mean, yeah, you've gone through some real shit. And so you can say like, in a sense, this has been tested in the trenches. It's not just, you know, abstract stuff sitting in scientific textbook that when it really comes down to it is doesn't really work. Like it might work in a lab setting, but that's just an artifact of research. But when you have somebody going through real problems, can it really help?

Yeah, it can. And that's part of your story. No, that is absolutely the case. Definitely. And for me, luckily, because I knew the app that I could, okay, what daily exercise is going to help me today. So one of the ones I love doing is five invisibles and it's write down five things that you take for granted. And so for me, it was, we found the cancer early and again, the bonding with my mother-in-law. Again, it was also, I, the relationship with my boyfriend now has been completely and utterly dead. The fact that someone helps you through cancer, like we've bonded beyond belief. And so I know that he will be there for me through anything and that we can face anything,

any challenges together. Yeah, we actually were approached last week. This was kind of exciting with just being on the Google Play Store by the California Mental Health Services Authority. They have a tech suite. And so we were invited to apply for that. So it's kind of nice already that people are sort of finding us with just our minimal sort of marketing because I'm just barely out of the oxygen therapy and the surgery. And we kind of were waiting for that push to sort of market it once I'm a little healthier so that the entire business isn't on his shoulders if I'm not feeling well. It's just so funny that I created something that then helped me again through like the toughest journey in my life. I apologize. They're doing drilling upstairs. That's okay. It's not too loud. The joy of living New York. Luckily,

there hasn't been any sirens outside. It's actually been pretty quiet today. How I live life is just putting myself out there. I want to experience so much. And I love giving back negative things that happened in my life. I don't want other people to have to experience them. So it's like the opera singing, like I love being on stage. And for that quick second, looking out in the audience and seeing, you know, if I didn't, it's both certain roles. If I didn't give them tears in their eyes, I didn't bring them along for a journey. That was my job that evening was to have them forget about their lives and to be brought into this gorgeous romantic story with this beautiful music.

And so it's just that connecting with people, which again is another thing that actually makes us happy is connecting with others and helping others. And that's so important, especially in this day and age, that that is really something that helps our soul. So it's just, it's very important to always put those as a priority versus like making more money, which there's a funny study that for every dollar you make, you want to make a dollar. And I forget if it's either it's a dollar and 30 cents or a dollar and 40 cents more. Like, it's literally that's that is the case. So every time you get that's why you get that raise. And there's sort of that little tinge of Oh, I wanted a little bit more money. And then again, the hedonic treadmill kicks in, you're not feeling as super excited

about that raise. Now you're looking for the next raise, you're looking for your next car, you're looking for your next house. So're looking for your next car. You're looking for your next house. So it's about sustaining that happiness and enjoying life so that you're not just sort of running on a treadmill all week and living for the weekend. Like living every day with that. That's why we call it fulfill. We want that fulfillment every day. I mean, today was amazing. Like I get to wake up and I get to talk to you.

And how cool is that? Like my fitness guru. And I hope for you, I know that you started out again, this is sort of Pat Flynn, like the generalism. I know you started out as an author and that you wanted to, you know, then you ended up creating this gym business. And now you get to speak to a woman who, I mean, you helped me through the most difficult time of my life in so many ways. And that weight training could do that. That's just, and the nutrition and everything really helped. And it's just like incredible. Like it was so fun that when you wanted to talk to me, because I just, I'm so thankful that you put this business together,

that you put the information together. You took the time to do the research and you get to help me. And then also at the end of it, I get to look amazing. I love it. I love the whole story. I love her this interview. I thought, okay, we're wrapping up and then we get off on. I actually, I'm thinking it might make sense to release this in two parts, honestly, because this is almost like two totally separate. Yes. There's the fitness and then there's the how the fitness translates into success and happiness and then everything you're i mean you shared great tips on how to make better decisions and how to overcome adversity which i think it might make sense to do that it'd be like almost like a cliffhanger from the first one oh i like it but no just again so people can

work and where can they find that? It's the fulfill app on the Google play store. Correct. Okay, good. It will be on the Apple store soon, or you can go onto our website, fulfill app.com. You can find out a little bit of information there. We've really tried to make it something that everyone can use because these are all issues. We have a lot of quotes by Stoics on there as well. I was going to mention that because I was going to ask if you were into Stoicism or if you had read some of it just because your attitude is very much in line with, and I can relate to that. I'm the same way. Yeah, especially Marcus Aurelius quotes that there was, I'm paraphrasing, which is terrible, but no man has reached his

potential until he's been tested. There's a quote like that. And I mean, that quote, I read almost every day during my cancer treatment, because it's like, nope, this is just testing me and I'm going to come out stronger. But I love the fact that they are dealing with the exact same issues 2000 years ago, which means they're still plaguing humanity today. But luckily, now we have the behavioral research that actually can help you in switching that mindset. You know, and again, not in just sort of like, oh, just meditate, and then you'll feel better. Like, okay, you've meditated. Great. Now what? Now what tools are you going to use today to make sure you have a great day? And if your day is terrible, how are you going to change it? Or how are you going to use it to strengthen yourself inside and out? Yeah. But I think of the

choose not to be harmed and you won't feel harmed. You also, you lived that every day. Definitely. Definitely. You know, getting, yeah, getting away from that victim mentality. That's on my, I have a list that I read through every day. And then there was Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Obviously not stoicism, but the only Zen on the tops of mountains is the Zen you bring with you, is a Robert Persig. I didn't read that book. I know of it. Of course, I've heard it, but I haven't read it. Yeah. And I love that. The only Zen you bring that's at the top of mountains is what you bring up there. It takes away, again, that victim mentality that you have, you know, all of us have different challenges in life and you can choose to have them empower you or you can, you know, it's easy to get frustrated. It's easy to get trapped. And it is hard. As I said, that first day at the gym,

when I was dealing with cognitive dissonance, which is when you're receiving information, you want to dig in into your beliefs even more, that it's just this phenomena that happens. And it gets in the way of your living your best life. I had given into it that day, I would never have done this workout, I would never have gotten the body that I have. And I wouldn't have had the help during cancer. So it's always being open to new ideas. That's another one that's again, about success is being open to new ideas and open to new people. There's a great book, is being open to new ideas and open to new people. There's a great book, Francesca Gino,

who is at Harvard Business School, and she talks about rebel leaders and how we like to feel comfortable and we hate feeling uncomfortable. And it's those leaders, I mean, speaking of the cancer world, it's those people that would be open to like, hey, you went through this as a doctor, what could I do better?

How could I be better at my job and help you out? There was a study she did on cardiovascular surgeons. The FDA had come out with new guidelines on a better way to do a specific type of heart surgery. And so she studied this and the doctors who were more experienced were less likely to do the new surgical technique. I mean, there's research that shows with doctors showing that the more time, the older they get and the more experience they get in their career, the worse they get actually at making diagnoses, at even remembering things that are relevant to their job that they should know if they're going to be able to help their patients.

Well, definitely. And that's the thing. It's like, I'm an expert, so I know better. Who are you to tell me to switch what I'm doing? Then instead of having, she calls it a learning mindset, having that learning mindset that you always want to become better, that you always want to learn new things. So for the app, for instance, I had to learn photo editing software in order to create the screenshots for the app stores. And so I'm like, all right, what am I going to learn photo editing software in order to create the screenshots for the app stores. And so I'm like, all right, what am I going to learn today? So I sat down and started learning this. And then I ended up, you know, nothing is in a vacuum. I ended up being able to create my own album covers for these small projects that I'm doing because I know how to use photo editing

software. And it was so much fun. And it means that I'm in control of my brand, I'm in control of my business. So always being open to all those different. And the thing is, it kind of helps you become a better like, so I do want to be I know your podcast with him, I do want to be the best in the world as a singer, like that is my goal. But by learning these other skills, it actually adds to that because you get different perspective, these different tools, if you adds to that because you get different perspective, these different tools. If you're always just sort of in a vacuum and in just one, working on one thing, you miss out on the broadness of life and broadness of experience.

That's what being an artist is. And I hear like so much from classical musicians like, oh, you just practice eight hours a day and that's it. If I do that, I have perfect technique, but I walk out on a stage, I'm not gonna make anyone cry. We call it park and bark, where you go out on stage and you just, like Pavarotti did it. He's the only one that was allowed to do it

because his voice was phenomenal. He's, but that's it. The rest of us, it's a three hour opera. Your voice is beautiful for about three minutes. Now you need to carry that character and bring the audience on that journey with you. opera, your voice is beautiful for about three minutes. Now you need to carry that character and bring the audience on that journey with you. So it's so important to have those life experiences and be able to relate to different people so that you can embody a character, that you can connect

with an audience who are not artists. Opera is intimidating. People can tell me that all the time. I'll take them to something and they are moved and they're surprised that they're moved. In your book, In Bigger Leaner Stronger, you mentioned classical music for relaxation. You also can use classical music to pump yourself up. Today, go and listen to, if you are having a bad day, go and listen to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Not the fourth movement that everybody knows. It's, oh, I forget.

It's either the second or third movement. Oh, it's the third movement is relaxing. The second movement is going to pump you up. There is no way that you aren't going to be super excited. And that's sort of the power of music. And then for me on stage, I can take that power and completely encompass the emotions of the character and bring people, like that's just

such a gift that I get to receive and give as well. So it's finding that, you know, from life going two dimensional to three dimensional, so important. Yeah, it makes me think of I mean, Pat Flynn's book is on generalism that there's also, I believe it's David Epstein is his name. His book is called Range. In that book, he was talking about Roger Federer and how it was just an unusual, he was kind of the opposite of the Tiger Woods story. So, you know, Tiger Woods' dad decided he was going to create the greatest golfer ever. And then he like pitched his wife on it and the wife agreed, okay, let's make a super golfer, right? And that's all Tiger Woods did is golf from the time he could even stand up. Whereas Federer was, he played a number of sports. He found tennis a bit late. He wasn't that good at it in the beginning. Wow, isn't that crazy?

But David, he gets into the details. And this was also in the New York Times, New Yorker or something. There was a long form article promoting the book that also talked about this stuff. So if people don't want to read the book, they just want to learn the story. If they search for David Epstein, Federer will probably come up online. But Federer's experiences in his previous sports actually made him a better tennis player and definitely contributed to his rapid rise in tennis. And there are other examples in the book of just that, that maybe it actually is better. This would be maybe specific advice to parents who get overly obsessed with trying to turn their kids into professional athletes, but it also just lends some scientific and anecdotal credibility to the idea that even if you have one thing that you want

to get very good at, exposing yourself to other ideas and other activities and developing other skills can influence the one you care the most about in many different ways that you would not expect. And there's no substitute for doing it. You can't just think your way through it. You have to actually go have the experiences. There are some lessons we just need to learn through experience. Just reading books about it, coming back to that G.I. Joe fallacy, reading books about music theory is not the same as actually learning to play the piano. Yeah, that's completely the case. Again, from my equestrian background, I used that in my singing because I would be nervous before an audition. And then I thought, you're perfectly fine, you will, there will be no bodily harm that will come

to you. You've jumped on a 1500 pound animal over a stone wall, like this is a piece of cake. So and using that, you know, that mental space, or just the breathing that you have to breathe with your horse, because if you stop breathing, your horse gets nervous. They're like, what is going on, something bad is going to happen. So then when I'm singing and I get nervous, I have to breathe. I've already got that as part of my system. It's also interesting with Federer. He, for years, then kind of went so tennis-centric to the point that he actually wasn't enjoying it. And he sort of decided with his wife, if I'm going to do this, I mean, we just had the open here in New York, that he goes out to dinner, he does other things while he's here. It's not

just tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis. And as you said, like, it's added to his game, because oh, my goodness, how old is he? And he's still playing, and he's still kicking butt. So it's not like because he didn't have that incredibly hyper-focus that his tennis game all of a sudden fell apart. It actually is fine. It's doing amazing because he has this well-rounded life that you can relax. You can relax your brain and then come back and kick some butt. I'd have to think that it also, it just makes it more fun. And there's so much to be said for that. I mean, there are quite a few examples of professional athletes who, there was a female golfer, Michelle Wee, I think that was, I don't really follow golf much, but I think

I remember reading about that, that there was a point where she might've been number one, she might've been like the number one female golfer. She's one of the best female golfers in the world, but she got to a point where it felt like such a grind and that she was not even enjoying playing anymore. And that probably seems a bit odd to some people who are like, what are you talking about? You're making millions of dollars a year, fucking hitting a white ball around. You need real problems, but it doesn't matter because that is the experience. And for someone outside looking in, it might not make sense,

but it's one of those things where I promise people who would instinctively think that if they were to switch places with Michelle and have the experiences that she had, they probably would feel the same way, but to a much higher degree, probably because she's probably a bit tougher than the average person. One of the reasons why she got there, she's probably a bit more immune to those things, but even that caught up with her. And think about that in a different way. The stress of your only thing that you have to do in life is to get that ball in the hole and you just miss the hole. Yeah, that's your only job and you couldn't do it. That's your only job and you couldn't do it. Like the kicker on an NFL team. I always feel so bad for them. So this is one of the reasons I'm not a soprano is that sopranos, you sing a

whole aria and then you have to hit the money note at the end. I don't have to hit the money note. I'm the lower voice. I'm so happy that it's, I have to hit maybe the low note and maybe there's a higher note, but the rest of it's going to be super dramatic. So if I don't hit it, it's okay because I'm the lower voice part, but poor sopranos, like they, at the end of singing something crazy, six minutes, seven minutes, 12 minute aria, then they have to hit the high whatever. And good luck. Like, and if you didn't do it, guess what's going to be in all the papers the next day that you botched the note that you're going to hit. All of us take sort of our experience and place it on, this is actually in the app as

well, and place it into other people's lives way more than we should. You know, like what you were saying about a man's experience at the gym. I didn't know that was actually the case. I thought sort of only women had this crap to deal with. And to hear that men have to deal with a different kind of crap makes me feel better. The crap that I have to deal with. But also that, that really stinks. Like, can we not do that? That's just terrible. So our perspective is only our perspective. It's incredibly narrow, which again, is why it's important to reach out to others and ask others about their experience. Then you can find some empathy for somebody else. Just hearing that like sounds like super stressful for her. And I think she started very young as well. So it's like

golf was her life. So actually this week, the like Simone Biles had two more moves named after her in Stuttgart and won the women's individual all around for the umpteenth time. You know, at some point, Simone Biles is going to have to create, she wants to retire after Tokyo next year, but she's going to have to create a whole new life for herself after that.

So what do you do when your whole life has been gymnastics? How do you create something that that is fulfilling after that, whether it's sort of still gymnastics related, but, you know, finding other areas of your life that are sort of interesting. And actually that's another thing that leads to happiness is constantly evolving, constantly learning new skills, changing who we are. I feel bad for people who are like, oh, I'm going to do what my dad, his occupation, because he did it and my grandfather did before me. And that's what I'm going to do. Or worse, I'm going to do it because he wants me to do it,

even though I don't want to. Exactly. We actually have that in the app too. Take a step back with your life goals. Is this because you feel like you should do it? Or is this something you genuinely have that passion for? And unfortunately, in some families, there are real consequences to deciding otherwise. Definitely. Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, without a doubt. Well, the thing is, a lot of certain jobs have a shelf life, and then it's over, and it's not going to be some way that you can make money anymore. And instead of giving into that anger while I was supposed to be X, Y, or Z, then it's like, here's an opportunity where I can learn new skills. I mean, the good thing nowadays is you can find education anywhere. I love that you were talking, Pat Flynn, about reading 20 books. Reading books is just, it's such the information out there.

Or like you can go on YouTube or you go on Udemy and you find nowadays, like you can find how to do anything super quickly and with incredible information. And you can find out, as I said, like I had to learn how to use photo editing software. From that, I was inspired. I learned how to use video editing software. So now when I shoot a music video, I can be in charge of editing it. I'm also learning to mix my own music. If I work with a producer again, then I can speak to them much more intelligently. I know what EQ is. I know how to use reverb. This is one of the things actually, my boyfriend and I discussed with the app is that he said, you have to learn a little bit of coding. And I was thought, oh my goodness,

this is the last thing in the world I want to do. And I learned some HTML5. I learned some CSS, very basic, so I could learned some CSS, very basic. So I could sort of build a very basic website. Because of that, I was able to speak to him much more intelligently about the design of the app. I kind of knew the nuts and bolts of sort of how it worked. As you said, every time you make a change, like 17 other things actually, it's so funny. You have an idea.

You're like, oh, we'll just tweak this. Well, that changes literally 17 other things in the app in order to make it a user-friendly experience. So always sort of being open. That one wasn't the most pleasant, I will admit. Oh, coding is very tricky. Because if there's one little thing off, the whole thing doesn't work. And you have to hunt through and find the one period that you didn't put into the entire page. Oh my gosh. I remember in, I think I started maybe in middle school, we learned, I remember doing, it was C++. I don't think that's a thing anymore. I think it's now C sharp, but I remember learning some C++, some Java. Yeah, that can be incredibly frustrating, especially when we would build these

little programs, but it might have a thousand lines of code and it's not compiling. And you're like ripping your hair out, trying to find the semicolon that doesn't have the space before it or something. Yes. Even actually the first thing I did was look at a YouTube video on HTML5 and the gentleman set up the website and then said, okay, and clicked, you know, whatever, like, let's see it load. And then he just said, okay, it's not loading. So now we have to go through.

Yeah. And he's like, don't worry. You'll experience this too laugh now sure yeah exactly exactly he's literally doing the video on youtube obviously he knows his stuff and he's having issues and i'm like oh my goodness this is not for me at all but but it was something that i learned and maybe at some point i'll learn a little bit more, but everything else I've definitely enjoyed learning. I think it is a good habit to always be learning something new. And you can look at it as individual projects. I read a book recently, which honestly I didn't really like. I probably won't be doing a book review recommendation on it, but it's called Ultra Learning. I like the name, I like the pitch, but I didn't particularly like the writer's voice and I didn't like how it was organized. And I just thought it could have been done better. I mean, I appreciate the effort and he gave it a genuine effort, but I wasn't impressed, honestly. But one of the takeaways

from that book, which other people do really like. So, I mean, I've read a lot about learning, like learning about learning. So I'm also, I'm going to be hard to impress. So if somebody who hasn't read much about learning, they might really like the book. So that's my qualification of my criticism of it. However, just the recommendations that he has is to have these, what he calls these ultra learning projects, where it's just the idea is that learn something and do it in a way that is efficient and is going to make it easier rather than harder to get to some level of proficiency, but viewing it in terms of, all right, what am I going to learn next? And we all live busy lives and we only have so much time to give to stuff that isn't related to, I guess, work and family would be the top things and health, right? And

those are top priorities. But outside of that, we do have time. And even if it's only, okay, I have four hours a week or five hours a week, similar to what we might spend in the gym, do we have another four or five hours a week that we could put toward learning something new? And there's just a tremendous value in that and getting into that habit of always- Well, just challenging yourself. Yeah. Expanding your mind, expanding your skillset. And even if it's just following your curiosities, even if it's not like, it's good to say in your job, yes, it's smart to continue educating yourself in your job and your work and getting better there. And I would even consider that, you know, in my company, we pay people to, it's a part

of their just work schedule that they spend time reading. And we do like a book club thing. So every month everyone's reading one book related to their job. And they're usually they take, you know, their last, maybe first or last 30 or 60 minutes of the day to be reading. And if they miss some days, they have to make it up in terms of like, okay, so if they could chip away at 30 minutes a day, they miss a couple of days. So they might take an extra hour, two days in a row or whatever. But then at the end of the month, everyone, they compile their, what are their key takeaways from the book?

And then we all get together and share, keep it pretty short, no more than five minutes per person, because there's a number of us here. So we don't want it to be like a three hour meeting, but just what did you like most out of this book, which is also cool. There's a cross pollination effect that occurs where, you know, somebody in customer experience read a book about that. And what he really liked gives the person who runs all the content marketing ideas and vice versa. And so I, myself, for anybody listening, wondering what I do, I read for 30 minutes to be on the low end, 60 minutes on the high end, probably on average, maybe 45 minutes a day. First thing in the morning, I wake up and I have an infrared sauna, which is nice. It's relaxing.

Also, there's some research that shows there are some legitimate health benefits, not as much as maybe an infrared sauna seller would want you to believe, but some stuff related to blood flow, which then of course means cardiovascular health, also reducing oxidative stress in the body and inflammation. So there are some benefits, reducingucing joint inflammation and joint pain, there's some good evidence that they can make a difference there. And so I just go in the sauna first thing in the morning and I read just by doing that. And then I usually am going to read a little bit later in the day, either at the end of the workday or at the end of the night as well. But by spending on average, I'd say maybe an hour a day reading, you can get through quite a bit.

And I also read, I don't try to blaze through books. Like I don't read slowly, but I make sure that I'm understanding what I'm reading. I check a lot of words in the dictionary if I'm not sure what they mean. And when I find words that I don't know what they mean, I make sure that I'm making some examples, really getting the concept before I go back to continue reading, which makes a huge difference in terms of, yes, it means it takes longer to get through books, but I remember a lot more of what I read and I'm consistently building my vocabulary, which is, I think, an activity, a worthwhile activity unto itself for a number of reasons. Anyways, so I know that morning routines are kind of a trendy thing these days,

and that's how I start my days. Can I drink my pulse before the reading? I don't know if I last that long. Yeah, I know. Until you have to actually leap out of your chair. That is absolutely fantastic to know that that's how you sort of structure it into your day. Because it's just it's fun to I remember actually, after I left college, when because that's the thing in high school and college, you have to read this many pages by this time, and then take the test on it, which actually helps you. I mean, deadlines generally are a good thing. Well, the thing is, like, when I first moved to New York, I lived in Queens, and I was on the subway a lot. Sitting on the train and reading and not being on a schedule,

I actually enjoyed because I could, as you said, I could read slower, I could take the time to, like, it was just for me as well. And there was that intrinsic value, but also taking that extra time that I'm going to read the introduction because I can, that I can take this time to actually take in all the information. And the person took the time. I mean, I can't believe I'm actually writing a book, but the idea that the person took the time to put those words down on the page and instead of skimming to actually read through the language in order, as you said, then you are more likely to remember what you do read. So do you do Kindle or paper? I do Kindle.

I mean, as much as I like books and holding a book, I like how books smell, like I'm into books, but the digital, it's just too convenient because everything just lives in my phone, which means also I can pull it up. If I have some downtime randomly, I can pull it up and continue reading. I can make all my highlights. I can make notes. And then what I do is after I've finished a book, I pull all of the highlights and notes out and put them into a Google document, like one per book. And then I have like my key takeaways then, or here are the things that resonated the most with me or that I would most, if I wanted to review this book in the future, then these are the things that stood out the most. And some books are worth rereading in

their entirety and other books are not. Other books, I think it's better use of time to just go through the takeaways. And the key difference for me there would be, if it's been some time since I've read a book, hopefully I've changed, hopefully for the better. And is the new me going to get more out of the book than the old me? And some books, I think that's the case and other books, not so much. I mean, I'd say the books that are, let's say very, maybe mechanical, like a book on email marketing, for example, I may not reread. I may just go back through my takeaways and see now, but I have a different marketing system now. I'm in a different place with these principles, but something like meditations, for example, absolutely could be reread, I think, a number of times, and you could get something totally different from it each time. Oh, definitely, with where you are in your life, without a doubt. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. That's, that's been a workable thing. I've been doing that for a while and I used to listen to audio books, but I don't anymore because I'm usually listening. I'm usually

reading stuff that I read very little fiction. So it's mostly nonfiction and it's mostly, well, I read on a rotation. So there's stuff that's related to work, in which case I'm going to be having ideas. So it was kind of annoying previously. So like if I had some downtime, I was going to like walk my dog or something. I would listen to an audio book. But if they're saying something that gives me an idea or I would highlight that, or I want to make a note, pause the audio book, flip over to the Kindle, you know, make the note or make the highlight, go back. And if I was driving, I would have to pause, wait for a red light. I made more progress, but I figured after doing it for a couple of years, I was like, eh,

I just prefer to read. I'd rather just put a little more time into reading and I can use the downtime to like listen to interviews or lectures or stuff where I'm not going to be taking notes. And it's not as important that I pay attention to every word basically. And so yeah, that's why I'm all digital and no audio book these days. Actually, so the beginning of the app was, again, I have this other degree that I didn't use for a number of years. But because of that, I always had an interest in the brain. I find the brain fascinating. I find human behavior fascinating. So it was just sort of a hobby to stay up to date with the information that was kept coming out. I do, because I live in New York, because I'm walking so much, I do listen to podcasts. And I

find I have the same issue is that I have to stop, step to the side of the sidewalk, because you don't want to block New Yorkers, you're gonna get knocked over and go to my notes function on my phone, type in the time, and then what the interviewee or interviewer was saying. And then I go back to my computer, find the transcript, go through the transcript and create some notes later. But you see what's good about that is it's kind of like how the sausage is made. People hear that and they go, Oh, that sounds really annoying. And it is kind of annoying. And I know because I've done it. I never really got that into podcasts. I would just stick to audio books because I found that I would listen to podcasts. So like I said, I want

to learn something about whatever. I would listen to some podcasts. And I got to the point where I was like, I could have done without two thirds of that entire conversation. Like I just want to know the important information. I don't care actually about this person's story or background. Like that's not why I'm here. You know what I mean? And no matter how articulate somebody is, they're never going to be as concise and as informative as when they are writing, as when they've gone through nine drafts of a chapter and they've really distilled this information down and condensed it down into one of the

biggest keys to good writing, of course, is just taking words out. Like, how do I make this shorter and simpler and more to the point? Whereas we're doing right now, when you can do a conversation, it tends to go all over the place. And there are many words that are not needed. And so that's why I was like, all right, fuck podcasts. I just, I'm an audio books. You're on one right now. What is that? I know. I know. I know, I know. If you just want maximum useful information for in every unit of time, podcasts are not the best way to go about it. Audiobooks are better. However, in defense of my own podcast, a lot of my episodes are just

monologues on specific topics. I like listening to your monologues as I walk around New York. So there you go. And I appreciate that. But honestly, those monologues are like the way that I would want somebody to teach me about whatever it is, because I mean, I keep them specific and I really try to, maybe there's a little bit of like intro trying to get you interested in it, but then I'm really just trying to get to the point, get the information accurate and concise and practical. It's working. It's not typical though, because most podcasts, at least in the health and fitness space are just conversational stuff like this. And so that's why I like to do a combination. I think that there's obviously value in doing interviews and you get to know the host better. You get to

get a better sense of their personality. But as I am much more of a, I like information and I like when it's explained well and you can take it and do something with it. That's why my podcast is very heavily weighted toward that in both the monologue and interview episodes. Well, I think also your podcasts have a nice theme to all of them and they are a nice intro. Actually, I can't believe I didn't tell you this. So I was in Hyperbaric one day and one of the techs was asking me because his girlfriend wanted to get in shape. So he's like, tell me what you do. And I said, she needs to read this book, Thinner, Leaner, Stronger.

And the other tech in the room said, you've got to be kidding me. I just started Bigger, Leaner, Stronger. And it's so funny. So I said, well, this is the crazy thing. I'm actually going to be on their podcast. And he's like, Oh my gosh, that's nuts. And I said, yes, I was telling you guys how much I used weight training throughout this whole experience. So and then but he kind of made a face. And he said, Well, how do I know because again, I'm a girl. And he said, How do I know that this book is going to make a difference in my life? Because there's so much information. He's like, I kind of got through the intro, but then I sort of haven't been able to continue through the book.

And I said, all right, listen to this specific podcast. And it was on the myths. I think he had started a little later. So he didn't see the one on myths about men building muscle. So he said, here you go. Listen to this. This is going to give you some information. And then your interview with the kettlebells. I sent that to him as well. So again, like a conversation. So

something different, a conversation about a way to use a different type of weight training, because he was worried exactly what you're talking about. He was worried about going to a gym. He's never been to a gym before. So he was kind of concerned. So I said, Okay, you can start this way. He was kind of downloading stuff. And then I said, also, here's a picture of my boyfriend at the beach. He was kind of downloading stuff. And then I said, also, here's a picture of my boyfriend at the beach. And I showed him a picture. And he said, Oh, my gosh, that's the body I want. So it kind of like a question, I think, you know, women for me, once they see, oh, wait, that's what you're doing. And that's the results. Okay. And he started reading it. And then the next session, he had like 10 different questions for me, because he was so excited to find something that actually worked. And he had a tummy and he was going to the gym, doing tons of cardio. He's like, the first thing I do is do 10 ab exercises. And I said, I do two ab exercises. And so does my boyfriend. This is what he looks like. So, and also Mike, just thank you. It's really nice to have a boyfriend that has a stellar body and can keep it for years. So I appreciate that.

You're welcome. You're welcome. As well. And the nice thing for him is my body's only gotten better and better and better since we've met. So we're just supposed to be the opposite when you go into a relationship. We definitely are like, nope, we're going to stay fit for each other. Because again, it's just about pride as well as all these other skills of success. But super important for your partner to look fantastic for them to the best of your ability. I think anyway, it enhances in the relationship in a number of ways. There's like the obvious physical stuff. And then there's also there's the attractors.

Exactly. It's like, what does that say about the person? It's inherently attractive when somebody cares to take care of their body, they look healthy and they look vital. And there's also that part of it. And there's respect and admiration that goes into the effort that it takes because anybody who's done it knows that sometimes it's not very easy. I mean, it takes a concerted effort. It's a lot of dedication. It's time. Definitely.

But also the other thing is you can have fun together. God bless him. He grew up in Abu Dhabi and he's learning how to ski for me, which is amazing. So the fact that he's in shape means he can pick up skiing quicker. And if he falls, he's less likely to get hurt. So then we can, you know, other things that we can do together because we're both in shape. And there's another study that I love that, again, that miswanting. When we're thinking about happiness, we think about reaching these goals. And some goals can be great, but just for the sake of the goal isn't great, or just for the sake of earning more money. When we talk about our lives with other people and things that we enjoy, and that gives us happiness, we talk about experiences. So having a body that

is your tool in order to experience more in life is so important. Like being fit is just, it gives you so many other options in life, as well as just later on in life, how you can be more independent. It's so crucial that later on, you know, you can walk around the city. Well, I mean, you're also just less likely to die from all causes. Pretty much. Yeah. The fitter you are, the more likely you are to live a long, healthy and enjoyable life that doesn't end in agony. Yes.

Yes. Oh, goodness. No, we want to say it's absolutely true. I mean, it's true, right? 100% established. That's just a scientific fact. No, if you can't get yourself from point A to point B, that's a problem. How much life then can you live?

This voice teacher I worked with who was incredibly overweight, and he basically lived. I mean, you can do this in New York. You get delivery. You get your apartment cleaned. He kind of just lived in his apartment and had his students come to him. And so his world was his apartment. And I was speaking actually to his doorman one day. And he's like, can you you're active? Can you do anything to get him outside, just to go for a walk and experience life more. And I once had to help him travel, because just getting to the airport carrying

your luggage, you know, once you can't do that, and that independence is taken away, and the earlier you start, like, it's just so much easier. It's so much easier. So it is fun having the best body ever. But it's also you know, again, your cancer rates are going to go down. The one podcast I listened to that agreed with you on a science versus, like they first just said, how it's very hard to lose weight. But then they went on and talked about and went through and she has over 100 citations on this podcast about about how much for heart disease, everything else, diabetes, it's just so important to stay active. And if you start that way, I mean, I am very lucky. I know you've spoken about this on other podcasts, where someone who hasn't been in shape, like that has to be incredibly intimidating. That

has to be so hard to just start out. If you were not brought up, I was brought up in an active household. If you're not brought up into an active household, like how do you incorporate that into your life when it's not even the norm for you? The idea for me of not exercising on a regular basis is like bizarre. I would never do that. Like there's always right now I'm, I'm out three weeks for my surgery. I haven't been able to go to the gym. I'm allowed to go next Friday. Counting down the days. I haven't been able to go to the gym. I'm allowed to go next Friday. Counting down the days.

I am. I miss my guys. Like I just want to get into that normal routine of, because for me, it's a sign that I'm healthy. It's so, it's just so important. And again, that camaraderie while I'm there. It's so nice to have that. And again, stress relief and pain reduction and joint pain, like all of that has gone away. And then that's really quality of life. There was another study I was reading that it has the same antidepressant properties as Zoloft to go to the gym. Like that's one of the best things to do. Go and be active if you're having that rough day. Like sometimes just going for that walk, just moving your body just means so much to your body. That's one of the reasons why I just like to do it first thing in the morning. It's just a great

way to start the day. You start the day in a good mood. And this is one of those things we probably don't need science to tell us this because we can just experience it. But this has been shown in research that how you start your day in terms of your mood is predictive of how you are going to end your day. So if you start off in a bad mood, chances are it's not going to get better. You're probably going to, maybe it's not going to get much worse, but you're probably going to be in a bad mood most of the day. If you start off in a good mood, then there's a much better chance that you are going to be able to sustain that good mood throughout the day. There's actually an exercise we give in the app that does exactly that. And what it is, is think about your morning routine or think about something on your commute and then think about someone in your commute and then think about someone in your life that's lovely or an experience that's wonderful, something that gives you joy

and attach that memory or that person to that part of your morning routine. You do drink coffee, right? Yeah. Okay. So when you're drinking coffee, you think about your fantastic trip to Italy. And the thing is, if you were thinking something negative beforehand, it interrupts that thought and automatically puts you into a more positive mindset. And it does sort of the opposite of immediately you've switched what you're thinking about almost once it's attached almost involuntarily. And you can actually take it a step further and tell a friend, Hey, by the way, every time I pour my coffee in the morning, I think of our amazing trip to Italy and do that in your, something like, so that when they brush their teeth, they think of that. So not only then are you thinking about your amazing trip to Italy in the morning, you know, that your friend is also

reliving those experiences as well. And like, how can you have a bad day then? Like you've already started, you know, it's, it is, it's these little teeny interventions. Cause if you trick the brain, I mean, it's not tricking the brain, but if you interrupt the brain from being negative, pessimistic, I mean, for me now I use the gratitude exercise sort of every morning. I have to sound completely cheesy, but I wake up every morning and I think my first thought every morning is I met a man who took care of me during cancer, who we built a business together, living on other sides of the earth. Like, that's amazing. And no matter what in life, he's going to be there for me.

So it's so incredible. Like, that's how I start my day and just think I'm so thankful for that. And so when you start your day with that incredibly strong, positive, you know, it's not like when you sit around at the Thanksgiving table and you're like, I'm thankful for my dog. And it's, you know, it isn't really, it's like a two dimensional version of that. But if you really take a moment and think of something that you really, truly appreciate and is such a gift in life, then first of all, you won't take it for granted. But you can completely change your mood and dictate. Our mood is so much more under control than we realize. We really can reframe situations. So again, as you said, I reframed cancer. The really funny thing about cancer is that you win every argument. If anyone says I'm having a

bad day, you can be like, oh, really? Well, I'm dealing with doctors and having to make appointments and I'm in pain. And then meanwhile, I still have a smile on my face because it's like, all right, this is gonna turn me into a fighter. Or wow, this is so nice. I'm having this conversation with a friend

and they're there for me. You completely win any arguments. I'm sad that that time of my life is coming to a close. I got a lot of free drinks in New York as well. I don't drink that often. But when I was out with a friend and yeah, like I remember we were speaking to a bartender somewhere and I said, oh, I just came out of radiation.

He's like, oh my gosh, the entire meal is on me. And so there's a couple of bonuses with cancer as well. If you want a more positive version of that, just get pregnant. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. So you really can sort of change. I was so funny. I was after my diagnosis, I'm actually not a shopper. I don't like to shop, but I did go on Zappos and I'm like, I'm going to buy myself a bag that I can carry to doctor's appointments. That's nice, but we'll carry all of my stuff. And I bought the bag. And then the next day, I noticed that it had gone down in price. So I wrote them and said, Hey, you know, I just bought this bag yesterday, would you give me decrease in price? And the woman was wrote back

and texted back and said, Okay, yeah, I'm working on it. And how's your day going? And I said, I've just been diagnosed with breast cancer. It's a poor woman. Lord only knows where she was. Zappos customer service. I've just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I'm doing a little retail therapy. And she wrote back two seconds later and said, oh, I'm sorry, the computer had a glitch. The bag is free. I've given you a full refund. And you're just like, thank you so much. Like I just needed that. And actually how this podcast happened is Kevin, who's in your customer service, who was just so kind to me, I had messed up an order from you guys getting vitamins, and I think it was pulse. And I wrote him and said, you know, I need to actually return something. I don't know why I ordered this. But

it's my fault, like, and speaking to the customer service of your business, but it's my fault. So like, if I can't return it, totally fine. And he said, no, completely return it. And I said, I'm so sorry. I'm like, I'm going through cancer right now. So I'm a little flaky. And I guess he's told you like we've emailed back and forth since April. And it's been so lovely because he's like sent me pictures of his dog and sent me really encouraging emails like I have other people have gone through cancer, and they've come out you're like, you're going to be fine. And you have no idea when you're going through it. Like anybody says to you, you're going to be fine. It just helps remind you of that, that like here is someone I haven't even met. And they're supporting me. And how amazing is that? So he, like, I just wrote him yesterday. He's so lovely. He deserves extra props.

Definitely. Cause he went above and beyond the call of duty. He wasn't like, that's amazing. I actually didn't know that part of it. I didn't know that. No, that's how it started. I'm going to give him a high five after this. Definitely. And actually, so he said, we switched offices and I've lost, we don't know where your package is. So I'm giving you a full refund. And I wrote him back. I've lost, we don't know where your package is. So I'm giving you a full refund. And I wrote him back. I was like, dude, I kept half the stuff.

You can't, you know, this is terrible. You don't have to give me a full refund. And he said, nope, no problem. I wanted to explain to him at this point, the reason I sort of wrote it is like, you guys are giving me, I think it was like $100 worth of free stuff, essentially. And you're getting at an advertising, I promise. And that was sort of the point is I'm like, right now I'm on my couch, I can't move. But when I'm in the gym, people are like, what are you doing? And I tell them to go to BLS. So don't worry, you're getting it back at

advertising, I promise. So he wrote back and wrote this incredibly kind message. That was just so lovely. And we've started sort of emailing back and forth. And it's kind of nice because each email is a little delayed. So it's sort of like this little present three, you know, two or three weeks after writing him that I get an email from him. And then I was a little delayed this time with the recovery from the surgery. So I'm like, Oh, I got to, you know, I'm feeling better. Let me write Kevin and let me know that I'm feeling better. So yeah, that's how this all began. I love that you did that. That's so cool. It's such a like, just serendipity. It just it's like a bunch of serendipitous events that just had so many positive effects. It's cool.

Exactly. So and then also, like, as we were writing, I said, Oh, your email, it was funny. So my boyfriend forwarded me your email where you were saying I'm going to rebrand my business for girls. So I sent him also an email saying like, I think actually we hadn't even, I think he had sent you my email. And I never thought I'd be on the podcast. So I said, you know, if Mike ever wants to contact me or just write, or I can just write what my, the obstacles were in terms of getting to this place, you know, I definitely can do that. And I love that about being an entrepreneur. That's sort of one of the first rules that I learned, which is always how can you help somebody else, like always reach out, because there's always something you can do no matter what position you're in. So I can give you and you never know what might come

of your actions. But I understand that I understand being in that position where, I mean, anybody who has been following me for at least a little bit knows the story of, I started with self publishing a book and I had no connections. Some guy who had something to say about working out. I didn't know if anybody was even going to care. I sold 20 books the first month and I was actually happy. I was like, that's cool. Somebody, yeah, actually, I was like, somebody bought my book. I thought maybe it'd just be zero and that'd be the end of that, but that's pretty cool. And so I understand when you are in a position where you haven't established yourself, you don't have any clout or credibility or leverage.

And you're like, yeah, what can I really do? Especially when, whether it's building a business or trying to materially impact the cancer treatment protocols where you're like, the system, the establishment can look so intimidating and so monolithic. And in some ways, yes, complex systems are very resistant to change. You shouldn't expect it to be easy to build a successful business or to make a dent in oncology, but it's just a cool point in your journey. And just for anyone listening, just take encouragement in knowing that you get started and you keep going, you keep trying to improve yourself and you keep putting in the work. Eventually very cool things can happen. And certainly more is going to happen than if you do nothing. Well, nothing's going to happen if you do nothing. The only way to get things going is

to put yourself out there and put yourself out there. For me, it's in a generous, warm way. And as far as business goes, I think it's worth saying, sorry to interject, but just that a lot of times it's so much about money and where people are judging their success or failure strictly in financial terms or other kind of cold quantitative terms. If it was an app, it could be numbers of downloads as well. But there also is a qualitative side to business in terms of what impact you're having in people's lives. And so this is something when I was early on, just where Bigger Than You're Stronger was starting to sell more. And I was like, oh, this is interesting, where even if none of this would have really panned out and it would

have been a book that sold a little bit and then kind of disappeared, it's still satisfying to know that, hey, I actually, I did help someone. If it sold 500 books and if I heard from even just 20 people who enjoyed it, that's worth something. And the same thing would go even fast forwarding now to today. If everything blew up tomorrow for some reason, the entire economy just collapses and that, well, that's the end. Now we're in raw survival mode. That's the end of that. I still get a lot of satisfaction from the simple fact that I've helped a lot of people. And to me, that is a lot more satisfying than I made a lot of money. I made a lot of money is I look at money as a means to an end. It's nice to not have

financial problems, but beyond that, there's not much satisfaction in money. There's a lot of satisfaction. And I would say, you can go back to that well, again, and again, and again, and you don't run into that hit on a treadmill effect where it is just as satisfying now to get an email from someone who's saying more or less the same thing as the first person who sent me an email with that, which is, you know, they were having trouble and they had tried all these things in the past. They didn't work. They found my stuff. And then this is how things have changed. Basically this conversation that we've been having, and it's just as satisfying now. And I've had many of these conversations,

not just on the podcast, but I've had minimally thousands. Yeah. Thousands. I don't know if I've hit 10,000 yet, possibly my email inbox is over 150,000 emails sent and received. But in terms of like people who have explicitly reached out and they're like, I have a success story to share with you. It's thousands for sure. And it's cool that it's just as satisfying now as it was then. Whereas making an additional dollar or even additional thousand dollars, even a hundred thousand dollars is not nearly as satisfying as it was. And I really appreciate that element of the business that I'm in, because if it didn't have that, if I didn't have a real connection to people, and if I couldn't really see that I was making a difference, I don't know if I'd be as motivated to do what I'm doing. If it was really

just like, I'm just selling knickknacks on Amazon to make money so I can buy things. Yeah. I wouldn't do it. Yeah. That is such a turnoff. I'd rather do something that makes a lot more money or sorry, a lot less money, but provides a lot more satisfaction and where I feel like I actually am giving back to the world and not just taking and consuming. Well, again, that's giving back and that creating something that helps people that is not subject to the hedonic treadmill. That doesn't affect it. You know, one other thing that's not that I know of is sex that's been shown in research too. You can always go back to that and it's always as enjoyable. And again, it's one of those things that we don't need science to tell us that, but hey, it has. That's super funny. Oh my goodness. Yeah. There's actually an interesting

study also that if you spend money on someone else, it actually makes you happier and that happiness. The cute little boy this summer in the tank, he would watch Paw Patrol. And oh, gosh, he was so adorable. So you can't do much because you're each in a tank. So we kind of like blow kisses or wave. And so for his last treatment, I got him like $13 on Amazon, like this little Paw Patrol figure. $13 on Amazon, like this little Paw Patrol figure. It was the best $13 I've spent all year. The look on his face, he was so excited to finish that day and to get this. And apparently I got, I didn't know how I did this. I don't have kids, but it was his favorite Paw Patrol character who he's going to be for Halloween. So his mother was so excited too. But just to see like the look on his face,

like I got so much more out of it than him. Like here's this silly little toy. And she actually let me know like he plays with it every day and he loves it. But I knew that if I spent money on him, like what $13 am I going to spend on myself that's going to give me the same amount of joy as seeing him open the bag and seeing his favorite Paw Patrol character and combining this with his last day of treatment. And I would always tell him before that, you're so strong. One person's in the tank, you can use a phone to talk to the other. So I would say you're so strong and so brave because he was. Here he's doing something that I'm complaining about. And frankly, the first time they push you into the tank, it is a little intimidating.

And then when he was finished, he would finish before me. He'd pick up the phone and say, hi, beautiful. And it would make my day. And the thing is, and that's why I love the place that I went, because the techs create that atmosphere. They create that atmosphere of just, we're all in this together. It's kind of crappy, but we're going to feel great. And they're going to take amazing care of you. So they are just,

you know, wherever I perform in the world, I'm buying them tickets, front row seats for the rest of their existence. Because not only did they save my life, but they did it in a way that was always respectful, always asking me questions, always asking me what I needed, which is so not the case in the rest of the medical community. So it really created like a healing atmosphere. And it was so funny because they would say, well, if we're grouchy, we're having a terrible day too. So if we're nice, then we're actually enjoying our day as well. So why do we choose to be grouchy while we're here? Well, it makes sense when you do it the right way. Yes. Yeah.

It's so simple. Yeah, definitely. That is absolutely the case. Well, at this rate, we could, it sounds like we could go on for a lot longer, but I'm about to pee myself. So maybe for people who want to reach out to you, how can they find you? So all of my social media is operamariana.com. And again, it's M-A-A-R-I-A-N-A. So think Haagen-Dazs. And then my website is mariana.com.

And yeah, we haven't even gotten to this exciting stuff. I'm actually, because I've been away from the opera world, I'm actually creating some original music. So think movie background music. So Lord of the Rings with some opera singing over it. And it's stuff that I'm writing originally. I'm very excited that I'm working on. And Kevin's getting, he's going to get the rough draft soon. But a few people that I've sent it out to some music professionals. Yeah, share it with me too.

Oh, definitely. I listen to movie scores a lot when I work because I don't like lyrics. Because most of my work, like if I'm writing or if I'm doing stuff for I Have to Think, I don't like oh but it's opera so it's going to be well and for once i'm so excited would i be able to understand the lyrics though because some opera i've listened to it i'm so excited i'm singing lyrics in english i so rarely get to sing in english so yeah so it'll completely mess you up so this will be something you'll listen to well Well, I want to hear it anyways, because I like that type of music. Okay. All

right. I was wondering if you were going to have me sing while I'm on. You know, actually, I thought about it. I was like, that's cheesy, though. Oh, I get asked all the time. It's only cheesy. If like people are doing it as a party favor, like, oh, sing something. But I've shared my story with you. So I would be Yeah, I'd be totally fine. But if you're then let's do it. I think that's a great way to wrap this up. Let me I got to move my computer here. So I would be, yeah, I'd be totally fine. But if you're, uh, Then let's do it. I think that's a great way to wrap this up. I got to move my computer here. So I've only started singing for a week after my, um, surgery. So, and I've been talking for three hours,

which means only you'll know the difference is what that means. Okay. Let me have one glass, a sip of water here. Oh, mio Fernando Della terra il trono A possederti Oh I'm impressed. I'm impressed. That's also probably a cheap computer microphone over the internet too. That's pretty good. I'm impressed.

I had my recording microphone all set up and for some reason we didn't have that work. So it's literally over an iPhone normal headset. So yes, the worst possible scenario. When you're good at something, you just got it. You could just do it. It's the golfer who can take the hickory clubs and go shoot a par. Yeah. Warm up should warm up. That's what we say. That's what the first number's for. That was great. Well, Mariana, I really appreciate you taking the time. This was a very fun discussion. It'd be fun to talk about maybe coming back again to go. I suspect that I'm going to get a lot of good feedback around just a lot of the mindset and psychological stuff that you've been sharing,

because these are things that I've written about and spoken about here and there. Like you'll find most of it. There's a bit in my books for men and women, and then the black book of motivation has a bit as well. But as far as my like dayto-day, it's mostly body composition stuff and just general health. So just because you've already put so much work into this app, I'll bet you we could come up with an interesting discussion around just very practical tips that people can use to overcome the head trash, so to speak. And you've shared a lot. You've shared a lot, you've shared a lot

in this episode, but there's a lot more that we could probably get out of just that topic. Definitely. And I can come up with more of a strategy that people can actually implement right now. Definitely. Without a doubt. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I love this stuff. So yeah. Again, it's about changing people's lives for the better. You work on their bodies. I work on their minds and ears. It's perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Delegation. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, thanks again. This was a great talk.

Great. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. and elsewhere. And if you want to help me help more people get into the best shape of their lives, please consider checking out my VIP one-on-one coaching service, where we can help you get in the best shape of your life. My team and I have helped people of all ages, circumstances, and needs. So no matter how complicated or maybe even hopeless you might think your situation is, we will figure it out and we will get you results. Every diet and every training program is 100% custom. We provide daily workout logs and do weekly accountability calls. Our clients get priority email service and discounts on supplements and other products, and the list of benefits goes on and on. So to learn more, head over to

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