My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 100 - The 100th Episode

Episode Date: December 21, 2017

Karen and Georgia celebrate their 100th episode with a surprise case.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hey, it's the 100th episode of My Favorite Murder. Remember the podcast you've listened to, 99.08 times? Holy crap. I'm pouring myself and Steven a glass of this beautiful rosé champagne that today I was Vincent and I were walking by this wine store and I was like, oh, let me go and get a bottle for the 100th episode. And I'm looking through this thing and this cute girl with blue hair is like, I love the podcast. I'm like, oh my God, thank you. And then the chick behind the

counter who owns the place is like, I love it too. And they both started like talking to me about it. And it was really sweet. And so I just wanted to say thank you to Inovino, to Susana Inovino and Jen's Spain photography. Well, exciting. I have a cup of tea. I have a cup of tea and we have a cake from Carvel. That's right. Steven went and picked it up at the one Los Angeles location that's been there for a long time. Yeah, they've been there for a while and they were very sweet. And yeah, they've been after ice cream cake to give it to us. Yeah. Amazing. So fucking cool. I mean, I don't even remember having the conversation about talking about how we were going to have this cake on this day. I don't remember talking about 99 episodes worth of

things. So true. Here we are. And yet we're just going to keep on talking. Yeah, bloody blah. First, we have presents from Steven. Yeah. Let's just describe these because we walked upstairs into the beautiful podcast loft and on the podcast coffee table, there are two what I refer to as hat boxes. Gorgeous red like gilded hat boxes. Spoilers. Just kidding. Oh, okay. Other hats. Another hat. Oh my god. This is beautiful. It is. Ooh. Uh-oh. What are these? Are these head mics? Are these like Janet Jackson mics? Yeah. Steven. Oh my god. Steven got his head mics. This is what having 100 podcasts is like. Holy shit, Steven. We're going to record. We're going to record like gamers do when they record themselves for YouTube. It's totally true.

When you can do all your dance moves and everything. Oh, Steven. You can like, you can move your body the way you've always wanted to, Karen, when we're recording. I've wanted one of these my whole life. Shut up. I've just never had a reason for it. I love it. Steven. Steven, thank you. We didn't get you anything yet. We're going to. No, I'm so glad you liked it. Thank you. I mean, they're just like, they're just so fun. They're beautiful. Just watching Janet Jackson is just like, yeah, do it. We're going to be on the next level. Can we plug them in now? Uh, that might take a while. Can we just put them on though? Yeah, you can just wear them. Okay. Um, they kind of look like, um, like retain, what are the retainers

that people head here? They look like head gear if you need a visual. And it's totally like what someone would wear like in Top Gun or something like that. And they have like, um, they've got like foam or it's just really intense. I feel like I get, um, very, it's not that often that someone gives me the perfect gift because I do, I don't talk about what I like that much. I only talk about and focus on what I hate. Um, and this is just such a fucking, this is such a perfect gift. It's such a lovely, uh, it's so perfect for such a lovely gesture for us, for this occasion. Everything about it. Thank you. I've never been happier in my life. Oh, yes. Well, it's just, yeah, you're a special day. Thank you. You know what it is? He's forced to listen to us. Uh-huh.

So he has to, he has to pay attention to what we say. He doesn't want the mic to keep bumping against my teeth anymore like it always does. The foam on teeth is real gross to begin with. How is your, the background noise of just gift wrap paper constantly being touched? I mean, that's a new ASMR thing. So. Oh yeah. Karen, I think that you're just going to start wearing this always. I think you're exactly right. Like to sleep and when you're in the car and you're on the phone. I have to say I have a lot of the same feelings that I had when I was, uh, I think I've told you the story when I was like four or five and my sis, my aunt Jean gave my sister a pair of red cabbage boots for her birthday. And the second I saw her open the box, I screamed, grabbed them,

put them on and would not take them off. And I wore them for like three years. And this, I have very much the same feeling with this. Can I say, so you and I, blah, blah, blah said, like, we'll get each other presents for the 100th episode. So that looks great on you. Does it? Oh my god, you look like, um, you look like you work at a call center. Thank you. You look like, you know, like Ann Rule in the seventies. You look like you work next to Ted Bundy. I'm trying to help people, but I'm also making friends with one of the most legendary serial serial killers of all time. Yes. Yeah. Um, so I was like, well, what do I get Karen? I've been stressing about it for like a week. Spoiler alert. I got you nothing, which is totally my style. I stress and stress.

Don't do anything about it. You froze. So I had, but I had good ideas. And actually initially, those red cowboy boots you've talked about, I was going to get a cake made that were red cowboy boots. Oh my god. No, I didn't do it though. That doesn't matter. That's an amazing idea. I had a couple, so I won't points for them even though I didn't do it. You get 50 points for red cowboy boot cake. I have a great imagination and crippling anxiety that doesn't let me do anything about it. It's that follow through, but I am an honest believer and it's the thought that counts. I am too. I really am. I am too. Okay, great. So that was going to be one. Then I was thinking I'd either go get a tattoo or have a tattoo artist come here for us and give us SSDGM tattoos while we were

recording, but I couldn't remember if you wanted one or not. Okay. Well, then I would have gotten one. I mean, I love the idea of it. Yeah. But it's just not me. I have a tattoo that I shouldn't have gotten on the first place and in getting it realized. I'm not a tattoo person. I get that. Um, so that was another idea. And then, oh, and then I was just going to wrap. I was going to gift wrap a really well, a beautiful like Christmasy gift wrapping, gorgeous, just a pan of cheesy potatoes. Like my lady from unhealthy obsessions or whatever that TLC show is. Oh yeah. Because you love cheesy potatoes. I eat them backstage a lot. Yeah. So I was going to do some version of potato and cheese or pasta and cheese or something like that. I make a good mac and cheese, maybe that.

Green things make us cry some day. Cheese potatoes. Yeah. Save our life. Well, here's, thank you for all those thoughts and for stressing about it. That's even more of a gift of like true anxiety over it means a lot. I came up with the idea and when you said, oh really? Like, and then I was like, yes. And then immediately forgot and haven't thought about it since I walked in the door and you were like, I didn't get you anything. I was like, okay. You're like, oh, why would you? I don't ever get me anything. And I'm like, but we both said, but I immediately I was like, oh, thank God. She forgot to or she like didn't do it either. It's just so classic me that would be like my bossy idea. Yeah. And then I'm just like,

I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway. Well, because I didn't follow through, right? Yes. You have no memory of it. And I have no follow through. And together, that's 100 episodes, man. Dude, we are, we, it was a match made in heaven for real. It really was because it's like, it's a friend of mine the other day. I forgot we had made dinner plans and then she texted me was like now, like I had to move one night on her. Then she texted and she was like, now I have to move a night. And I was like, yay, like it's never bad news to me when you flake cancel. I love it. Or I just never hear from you again. It's always a relief to me. If you see me out at night, I really like you. You know what I mean? Yes. Like I, or you, you already think I'm

a flake and I can't, I've used up all my flakingness on you. Yes, you're scared. Yeah. There are a couple of friends that are like, oh, you're actually here. But then they're always like, but you always make me come to your side of town when I'm like, where should we go? I'm like, down the street. It's so great over here. Well, but here's the thing. And this is how it is. Sometimes you got a cop. If you live in an area where it's just not that cool. Yeah. Like you can go out. This is the thing. You have to like master plan. You have to think of everybody in the plan because there are people who are like, oh, I'm married and I have a kid. So if we go to dinner, I don't give a shit where we go because it's all the same to me. But if you're like a

single lady trying to maximize your time because you finally left the house after two weeks, you don't want to go to fucking the grandma restaurant at 6pm. Don't want to go to like when your friends like when you're single and your friends like, just come over and we'll make I'll make dinner. No, I want the possibility of seeing a hot guy at a bar. Don't waste my time in front of your TV. No, I 100% get that. Yes. Yeah. It's like if I if I'm going to make the monstrous effort of putting clothes on this body and rolling on outside, we've got to actually do something that's like worth the while. Plus there's no way you're fucking whatever salad you throw together is going to be good as like a cheese plate from the fucking nice restaurant. Yes.

And let's spend some money. Come on. Come on. Let's do it. Who cares? It's Christmas time. And did you hear about the asteroid that came within three miles of the earth? No, I love that though. I mean, guys, we're on a clock. Let me maximize this fun. Please this Christmas season. I went to my Hanukkah party last weekend over the weekend, which was super fun. And all my young sweet cousins listened to the podcast. No, how young? Well, they're like in there. They're like just out of college. So they're all cool. Except Savannah Gillian. Hi, ladies. Hi. They're just like sweet little angels and then and I love them. It's so very cool. Yeah, I am. I have family too who are like,

it's people that you don't expect. I was the young like 20 year olds that I know that that like Lauren and Connor and Johnny know are my family. You know, I'm always like they don't care about anything from my era. Like why would they? Right. We're boring old people. We're boring old people. They're all making their own homemade porn. It's like the life, the way we live is so different that it's like we might as well be from different sides of the planet. So good. God bless. Go do your thing. Yeah. So when they come in, they're like, oh my god, all my friends like you. It's like what? It honestly feels like a ghost has walked through the wall and been like, oh my god, we like you on our side. It's like validating you suddenly. It's like, oh my god,

I'm not. It's validating you from people that you're like, I have to dismiss your group because it's sad when old people want young people to think they're cool. But podcasts, there's something about them. It's all old people. It's mind control. It's mind control. How's my headset look? It looks still glorious. You look like Judith from HR. And then every time you say something, you have to touch the earpiece lightly. That's right. Because I'm also, I have to be honest, I'm a little bit playing news copter for pilot. Like I'm a traffic reporter right now. We have Karen Kay in the sky. Guys, I'm looking right down at the I5 and everything's on fire. Oh, on my way here. That's the only thing you can

say. That's like the only time that ring Karen Kay out is when there's a fire in the Southland. It's always on fire. Hey, it's 2018 and we're on fire. Sorry, I did a terrible radio voice, but the exit to come here, there was a slowdown of course. I went five miles an hour the whole time. It's so fascinating to talk about LA traffic. Everyone loves it. But when I took the exit, there was like a huge tow truck. And then when we all had to drive by it real slow, it was a Maserati that had rear ended like a Kia. And it was I laughed so hard because a Maserati's why do you drive that car? No, no, you're just flossing. You're just trying to make people think you're important. Oh God. And then one listener who drives a Maserati right now is like,

I fucking knew it. My brother told me it was cool. I fucking knew it. You know, and I'm taking this fork. We brought forks up here. I'm digging into this cartbell cake. Eating food on a podcast into a microphone is now AMS ASMR, right? It's AMS ASAP. Oh my God. It's not so good. Fuck. Okay, let's fucking cooking channel unique sweets this for a minute. Do it. Can I say? Yeah. Stephen, are you gonna eat any of this? Stephen, there's a pork fudge of the whale cake. I said, grab the cake and three forks. And you got so excited that I didn't say plates because there's no fucking chance we're cutting this and putting it on plates. What kind of monsters do you think we are? Yeah. This isn't fucking tea time with Karen and Georgia or whatever. It's an ice cream

cake, but there's like a layer of marshmallow fluff in it. It's crunchy from the like cookie pieces. That's what it's like famous for. Right, right. And it's got the like fudgy frosting and just a little bit of cake. It's not a ton of cake. It's... There's barely any cake that there's also a strip of caramel. Oh my God. Underneath this fudge frosting. Oh my God. It's like my mouth is watering and I'm eating it at the same time. That's how good it is. What's really fun about eating a thing? Wait, I should talk. I should talk on the microphone. What's really fun about eating a thing like this, like when you become an adult, is you get to eat it and make as big a mess as you want. Yeah. Also, here's what's really funny.

I think there's a lot of people on the East Coast that probably think this is hilarious because we're describing a thing that'd be like, oh my God. It's like the peanut butter is right next to the jelly where they're like, yeah, everyone's had this. You don't need to describe it. This is our childhood day. Nobody cares anymore. Every single person had this for their birthday party. Yeah, it's like you eat it. But we didn't. No, I've never had that in my life. Neither. It's the best. Fuck. Let's get sugar high. Mm-hmm. And party. Mm-hmm. You know what's so funny? If we can get into it really quickly. Someone tweeted today at us. Yes. And said, okay, hold on. Stephen, wait, hold on. They said, please eat a whole cake on the show.

And I said, sounds great. When we did it. I'd love to. They said, you know what? That's a great idea. That's my gift to you is dessert for dinner. Oh my God. That's so good. I want to cry. Stephen, don't you love it? Stephen, keep eating it. So good. Keep eating it. Keep eating it while I find this tweet. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions,

weekend brunch, simple side dishes, and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much. I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer?

Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths, and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly-arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions.

Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. All right, my guy name, his Twitter handle is Manny Patinkin. Oh my god, Manny Patinkin. Manny2189, Texas, added a statement where he said, So, you guys talked about the staircase death a lot in the start of your podcast days, but you guys never fully got into it and I still have no idea what it is and owl question mark. Someone sent us that today. Really?

Yes. That's hilarious. How weird is that? Because on our first episode, and Steven went back and listened to it, wrote up some nice notes for us. It's called due diligence. That's right. And he did it.

He did his diligence. He did his duty. So we didn't have to do no duty. Exactly. But we talked about the staircase. We both believed, I think for a while we believed we had covered it, but it was just conversation, a long conversation. And then the fun reveal that you told me was that then when we decided, okay, for the 100th episode, we're going to cover the staircase together officially.

I just realized I'm like trying to surprise everyone by telling them that we're doing the staircase, but then I just realized they saw it in the description of the podcast episode when they press play probably. Yeah. So it's not a surprise. It's not. And you know, at some point you got to reveal the surprise. What if Stephen, you put in the description surprise 100th episode case?

Yeah. Yeah, I can do that. Okay. Oh my God, they're going to fucking shit. Guys, surprise. But there is a surprise because then what was your reveal? Okay. So yesterday, like not yesterday. Last week, this is how fucking this is how professional this podcast is as Karen, Stephen

are walking out of my door after we recorded and we're trying to guess like what we were going to, we want to cover a story together, blah, blah, blah. And as we're walking out the door or you walking out the door, I'm like one of us is like staircase. Great. Goodbye. I think it was you. Okay.

And so credit. Thank you, but I don't want to. I don't need it. I turn on the staircase to watch it and realize I have just been bullshitting it this past couple of years when people are like, have you seen the staircase? And I'm like, yeah, because I don't want to be like, no. Right. Of course.

You know. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I kind of convinced myself that I had seen it. But as we're watching episode one, I was like, oh my God, I've never fucking seen this. I've watched the forensic files about it and I've read a ton about it, but I've never fucking watched the actual documentary.

It's so funny. Basically, the entire relationship and our story, our origin story is predicated on the fact that we both talked endlessly about this staircase at that, at Matt's Halloween party. Yeah. And all of that's a lie. That's like a miss. But I still knew about it.

No, of course. But I didn't know. I didn't know. You know what, after watching most of it, I didn't know what I was talking about. And God bless you. Which just goes to show what a fucking glass of whiskey you'll do. But you did in that way where this is this is one of the stories that's been around for

so long. And we've talked about that where the first couple true crime, like, you know, 48 hours types of shows that I saw about it presented it in a very clean, clear cut way. Yeah. I went back and watched the forensic files, which we'll talk about once we get through it, but it's definitely this is the story. And then shit just keeps throughout the years getting added onto it. Yes.

And it's really crazy. And I do have to say watching the documentary gave me a completely different. So guys, go watch the staircase. It's like a 10 part documentary. Yeah. 45 minutes each or something like that. This is what I love about this case is it's all opinion. I mean, there there's just so many potential.

This is I feel like this is the part of true crime where people started to go. Oh, yeah. The justices and I should say this white people or like not people of color started to go. Oh, the justice system could get swayed one way or the other based on what the people in charge think of who they're trying. Right. And that I don't think anyone really really looked at that much before this case where that's like, now look at it this way.

And then you're like, oh, my God, they hated him because of this and that. I mean, this is the original jinx. This is the original making a murderer. Like if you have feelings about that, you know, you need to watch this. I think this was way before it's, you know, time. And I think this also two years before. Right. God, it seems so vintage, doesn't it?

Well, the like the American justice I watched today was super vintage. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I watched the forensic. Okay. Let's talk about the fucking case. All right. Fuck it.

Let's get into this. Are we getting into it? So this is this is the the death of Kathleen Peterson. Period. The episode of the American justice that I watched starring Bill Curtis from 2004 was called Blood on the Staircase. Okay. Well, the forensic files is called a novel idea because he was a writer because he was

a novelist. It's a novel idea to kill your wife. Yeah. I'm like, oh man. Yeah. Love it. Blood on the staircase. Okay.

Sorry. Can I just say? Yeah. Oh, wait, are we going to cut that entirely? Because Georgia got up to get something and she walked over to this. Her stairs started walking down and goes, oh my God, what if I fall down these stairs? That'd be great. Am I just dead?

I'm falling down the stairs. So clean, 100th episode. So about a staircase fall. About a staircase fall, you can't see anything. So Stephen and I can actually say anything we want happened. Yeah. And as long as we're on the same page. And the recording would be played in court over and over again.

Because as I yell, I go, no Karen and Stephen. That's what I yell for no reason. And then I'll be like, your honor, you can clearly hear Stephen stroking his mustache. You know he's sitting down. Yeah. You can hear me eating cake and drooling about fucking cake. Well, where was the cake place at the time? Was it on the staircase?

It was into my mouth the whole time. Should we just read them at the same time? Sure. And then I was thinking, you mean two people talking at the same time? We just get ready. On December, go ahead. 19, 30, 72. Also, I think at the beginning of this, we should say what we think the truth is.

OK. And I think we should say that till the end. Well, I'm going to convince you of my truth. OK. What about you? What about you? Well, I was just going to, I mean, maybe we just talk through it as we go. And we'll just say.

And then we're yelling at each other, then we have different opinions. Yes. If we're like building each other up, if love can build a bridge. Yeah. Then we both think he's guilty. I definitely think he's guilty. Oh, good. Me too.

Yeah. OK. 100%. Come on. Well, you know what's funny is before I watched the staircase, I thought I was like, well, they have a little theory makes so much sense, which we'll get to you guys. Yes. But now that I'm like, oh, no, you're so sweet, baby Angel.

You think that fucking UFOs exist in an owl? Well, they do. Now we know they do. They do. Alien, unidentified alien alloys have been discovered. Aliens exist. We've all, I've known that anyone that watches Ancient Aliens knows it and has known it for quite some time.

Sidebar. A Siamese cat knows that they're fucking aliens. That aliens live here. They were here first. It's their planet. We're visiting it. Everything. Wait.

No, but I was going to say that I think that the reason that documentary is so amazing and effective is because you never see or you rarely see the murderer's family featured the way this family is featured. Holy face. So you go through it with the family. Yeah. And you want what the family wants because there's so much pain and horror going on and the layers keep unpeeling where you're like, oh no.

So then you start to understand why people do the things they do. I had, it was so, watching it was so problematic for me because it kind of, it made me, what's so funny about the documentary is clearly made from a standpoint that he is innocent, which is so ironic that it made me a hundred percent sure that he's guilty. So there's something fucking off there. And what is off is Michael Peterson's personality. Hell yes. And how fucking creepy and narcissistic and wrong he is.

And I swear to God, the two adoptive daughters, they're in a fucking cult. Don't call your dad. Right. Because he's, because you got to get off the phone with your dad. Those two girls, man. It's very sad, but it's, but I think, well, I think that documentary wasn't necessarily on his side. I think they were doing the, we're just verite, we're here to record what's happening

and what happens. But they left out so much evidence that, that, that's, I just don't think that's possible. Oh, okay. Well, but I think it in, in pretending that it's guiding you this way, opens the door to let you go that way. Right. You know what I mean? It's that thing of like, you can come all the way into the house because we know he's innocent.

And then you're like, yeah, I smell a rat, which none of that would have happened if they hadn't done it that way. It's like, it's the case of fucking this guy who thinks that he seems very empathetic and that, and seems deep and interesting when really everyone is so on to him. Can I read what he's, what he, can I just, can we start by me saying when he got out, when he got out on bail of prison, the first thing he said, are you ready for, are you ready for this to say that? Oh, do you have it on record?

Go ahead and then we'll see if it's the same thing. Okay. Kathleen was my life. I whisper her name in my heart a thousand times. She is there, but I can't stop crying. Kathleen was my life. I whispered her name in my heart a thousand times. She is there, but I can't stop crying.

It's just like, I would never have done anything to hurt her. That's okay. I am innocent of these charges. We're allowed. And we will prove it important. Well, if we're going to, I have something to talk about those last two lines too. Oh my God. Let's get into this.

This is going to be fun because those last two lines, oh God, I have the buffing. Really quick. So you and I just picked out the exact same moment where, because that was also in that episode. By the way, everyone, he's in an asphalt parking lot when he says that. With news cameras in front of him, and he is doing the worst acting. It's like, A sorrow.

It's, it's full somber and then like, I'm a really good writer. So here's, you can see him practicing this in the mirror. It is the fakest fucking thing you've ever seen. And it is such a presentation. It's so much artifice. And the background is his poor daughter. Okay. Here we go.

But I was going to say it's starting from the 911 call, which is also insanely fake. Okay. Well, here's what I told Steven and let me know you're up for this. You know what? We might need to start doing things at the same, the same one at the same time. Episode 101, 100 through fucking 199 is us together, but not knowing. Either, yeah, we don't know what the case is. Either that or this is because we both want to say something the most irritating episode we've ever done.

This could be the biggest clusterfuck, which is why like some people who don't know what this case is are like, can you just tell me what happened first? If you don't know what the case is, you know what, you know what, you can't afford it. Please don't hang up the phone. Hang up the phone. Oh, all right. Okay. On December 9th, 2001, this dude named Michael Peterson, you've heard his voice.

He's a creep called 911 to report that he had just found his wife of 14 years, 48 year old Kathleen unconscious. And he said he thought that she fell down the stairs of their forest hills home in Durham, North Carolina. Yep. Michael said that he had been outside by the pool and had come in at 240 a.m. to find Kathleen at the foot of their stairs. He maintained that she must have fallen down the stairs up because they had been drinking and she had taken Valium all night, interjected at any fucking moment.

Oh, I was just going to say it's Valium was kind of a one-off thing and my experience, you know, it's not like you party with it all night long. Right. You take the one you're going to go to bed. Good night. Yeah. And destroy it. Yeah.

Okay. But when police arrived, the amount of blood on the walls made them suspicious. So it talks to College Report show that Kathleen had an alcohol content of 0.07 percent. How many, Karen, I want to ask you something right now. I was thinking it'd be fun if we got a, if we got a breathalyzer and made Steven get that drunk and see how drunk that is. It's not that drunk. And I would say that's like four healthy glasses of wine.

Yeah. Because 0.08 is legally. Right. That's, that's not illegal in North Carolina. But see, my point is it's not that high. Right. Like you can get arrested for buzz driving because 0.08 is not sloppy, drunk, crazy. Yeah.

0.08 is. You shouldn't drive at that point. You have impaired yourself. Right. But you're not, you know, blind drunk. So, you know, so that was out of kit. It's not impossible that that, at that point, you'd fall down the flight of stairs if you're running up them.

Not impossible. Yeah. But sorry, she's running up stairs. Yeah. And she's falling backwards, not, not from the top of the stairs, but almost from the bottom of the stairs. Well, let's get to that. Okay.

Two. So Michael claimed that he had been outside by the pool with Kathleen. They had been talking because they're madly in love with each other according to him until she went in around midnight and that he had come home, come back in around 45 minutes later, two, four, I don't know the timelines weird, to find her at the foot of the stairs. So, but here's the thing. It was fucking December and he's saying he's sitting by the pool finishing his drink and shit and shorts and a t-shirt, it's 50 to 55 degrees outside.

You know how you do. Right. Which is like, yeah, your couch and your warm house is whatever, 40 feet away. But you're just going to go sit by the pool unless they were fighting. For 45 minutes. There was, but it's also a fucking palatial mansion. So there's 800 rooms for you to go into. Yes.

But I mean, like if they got into a spat at the pool and she stormed in, A, if she fell so badly that she was killed, you would hear that and you would hope that you would. The clonk, yeah. Even if you didn't know for sure, you'd be like, maybe I should go check. Even if I'm mad, I should go check. Yeah. He doesn't do that. Right.

For an hour almost. Yes. Okay. Okay. And the other thing is too, so he calls 911 and before the ambulance gets there, between that time, his son Todd from a previous marriage who's like in his 20s is already there. What's he doing there? Okay.

Well, he lived at the house though with that. No, he didn't. Oh, I thought he did. I don't think he did. He was out of the house at a party. Yes. This was a movie American justice that I watched. He was down the street at a party.

Okay. And then came home. So the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained severe injuries, including a fracture of the thyroid net cartilage, which isn't the hyoid bone. No, I talked about, but something similar. And seven lacerations at the top and back of her head, consistent with blows from a blunt object caused by homicidal assault and had died from blood loss 90 minutes to two hours after sustaining her injuries.

So here's what I was thinking. Since we both think he's guilty and it's all bullshit, should we listen to the 911 call? No. Come on. Okay. You can play it. No. You can play it.

But it's, we could, so we could say it too. It's normally 911 calls upset me because it's a real moment of the worst. It like makes my adrenaline go. Yeah. Like, but this instead fills me with absolute disgust because it's insanely fake. That's why I want to listen to it because it's like. Do you have it? I told Stephen to have it ready.

Just be, it's just so unbelievable to me. 911, where's your market, sir? Oh, 1810 C. The street. Please. What trial? By one time in action, she's still breathing. What kind of accident? She's still in the stairs.

She's still breathing. Please. Don't be conscious. What? She's conscious. No, she's not conscious. Please. How many stairs did you go down?

What? How many stairs? How many stairs? Calm down, sir. Calm down. No, 15, 20. I don't know. Please get somebody here right away.

Please. Okay. Somebody is dispatching the ambulance while I ask you questions. It's, it's, it's also, it's a force shield. Okay. He is the fakery is he wants to get off that phone. Yeah. He, he is playing a part and he can't sustain it.

He's delivering his part and that's all he can do. And he, it's that thing in like acting where it's like, if you scream really loud, then you've are, either there's nowhere else to go. So he did, he didn't start trying to be calm, which is I think what people normally do. Or if they're having a reaction, they, they listen because they need help.

So they want to listen to what the person who can give them help is doing and saying. And because the person on the other line is going to tell them how to potentially save this person's life. So you need to calm down and listen to the, that's what they're trained to do. Yeah. But he's not doing any of those things because he just wants

the big show of how upset he is. Right. And he wants to deliver his information, A, that she's still alive to, to lie about the timeline and that she fell downstairs. The fact that he doesn't mention, and if you see the photos, it's an insane amount of blood. And the fact that he doesn't yell, there's so much blood.

Oh my, you know, like most people, if they see the amount of blood would freak the fuck out. Yes. Uh, no, the blood part, when you, like in the, when the one that I was watching, the second the camera goes in and they have like the police camera of walking in, the amount of blood that's there is so ridiculous for a stair fall, for a slip and fall downstairs.

Yeah. Which is not, if you think about like when you fall down, you skin your knee, if you hit your head, you'd have a little bit of blood, there is blood everywhere at the bottom of the staircase. Pooling, pooling. And then smeared and then splattered over it. Like, it's nuts.

And the other thing that this, so this person, Ursula Franco, who's a criminologist, she has a really great website. M-A-L-K-E, crime notes. She, she does the thing I love, where she breaks down the wording in, in a lot of his speeches and things he says. And one of them is that when he, when she says,

how many stairs, that's a question he did not expect to hear. And it takes him 15 to 25 seconds from the beginning of the call to answer that, because he wasn't near the body when he was asked that question. Uh-huh. So the thing is, and she says, most people, when someone is hurt, are next to the body

because they're ready to help and they want direction on how to help. Right. But he was in another room away from the mess. And so he stalls by saying, uh, um, stairs. And it's only because he has to run over and see how many stairs there are. And they said, when they did the luminal test,

they showed barefoot tracks away from the area and going into different parts of the house. Right. So he was in the blood, he was standing over her body and then left. Which is like, if you, if you're a loved one, the person that you love the most in the world was laying in a pile of blood, where are you going?

Yeah. Like what, that's doesn't, it doesn't really track. No. Seemingly. Yes. Well, we're always right. So, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay.

So also there's a bloody shoe print. So, so Kathleen is found in this prone position on her back at the bottom of the staircase, like laying up the first couple of stairs, right? So she's on her back. Yeah. But on the back of her sweatpants is a shoe print that matches the shoes that Michael was wearing that night.

But when the ambulance arrives and the EMT arrives, he's not wearing shoes. For some reason, he's fucking barefoot and his, his socks and shoes are off and like near her body. Why is that? Cause he didn't want to track it probably, right? So how would her, how would his shoe print end up there? You mean like when he kicks her down the stairs

or kicks her from behind or something? Yeah. Well, also that when they get into, and I mean, we're not going to be able to do this chronologically. I don't, like it's, it's Brexit for the discussion. But like in the, in the case, when, when they talk about the, when the defense is talking about what possibly could have happened

to make that much blood that is not an, not an attack. And that many, and that many wounds on her head because it's seven wounds. So it's not like she fell down the stairs and maybe would have sustained two head injuries. Let's, let's be generous because we also know she didn't fall from the top of the stairs. Yeah.

She fell from five or six stairs up. Yeah. So to get seven head injuries, how did they explain it? It's fucking hilarious. She falls, she hits her head, she gets up, spits blood. Like they're, they're trying to rationalize how blood is everywhere. She slips and falls back down.

Which is explaining the fact that she had blood on the bottoms of her bare feet. Even though if she had, so if she had fallen and become unconscious, she wouldn't have blood on the bottoms of her feet. Right. So she did how to, like they have to explain that too. Right.

So that's, then they say that she does that multiple times, tries to get up, falls and hits her head hard enough to lacerate her fucking skull. So meanwhile, her loving, loving husband is sitting out by the pool. Right. She is slipping and falling in her own blood and dying and he doesn't hear it and doesn't come inside for 45 minutes.

From a.07 wine intake and a valium. I just keep thinking at the time I fell down on the street in front of the movie theater, my legendary story. Mm-hmm. Where I skinned my knee. When you fall down, even like say eight stairs, you break a hip. Mm-hmm.

You break your kneecap. You, I don't think anyone ever does that, but I'm saying which scenario. Twist your ankle. Yes, you sprain your ankle, you get a concussion on your head. If you did cut your head, you know, a little bit of blood. The idea that there's a pool of blood, blood splattered on every wall smeared all around.

And to be fair, the, we all know the head, the scalp bleeds profusely. Yeah. Fair enough. But why would seven lacerations be present if, you know, it's, it's. And all in the same spot. It's not like all, like she's falling down and hit her temple, hit the back of her head, it's all on the back and lower part of her head

as if she was running up the stairs away from someone. Yeah. And they hit her with something. Who clocked her, like repeatedly beat her down, essentially. Um, what I think is interesting is that there's a spot of blood on the wall as if the first attack had happened. Someone tried to clean up the blood and then she wasn't dead. And there's blood, there's blood spray over the spot

where someone was trying to clean the blood off the wall. Yes. As so that means either, I think it's either that she became conscious again and wasn't dead and he beat her again. Or he tried to clean it, realized it wasn't going to work. And so try to cover up that clean spot with more blood, just kind of sprayed it on there. Jesus.

Do you know what I mean? Yes, that's dark. I mean, like the idea that then he's just, he's just like this is associated, like. But you can tell the difference between the blood that was already there and the blood that wasn't, that came later. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things in this case that make it so he'll never,

so people can question this forever. And one of them is the fucking blood spatter analyst. I mean, who Dwayne? Dwayne. Let's talk about Dwayne. He's truly my favorite part of that documentary because he looks like he was cast by the Coen Brothers. He is the goofiest looking motherfucker.

And the way he talks about the blood spatter, the way he gets excited, like he's the expert here or whatever. And then of course, come to find out later on after this case, after he's tried, after he's convicted, this blood spatter guy, it turns out, wait, I have the details here from Steven's timeline and also from, I wrote dirty Dwayne Dever. Dirty Dwayne. A government ordered inquest found the agents of the SBI, including Dwayne Dever, repeatedly aided prosecutors and obtaining convictions over a 16-year period by misrepresenting

blood evidence and keeping critical notes from the attorneys. That was 34 cases where he falsely represented evidence. So essentially, Michael Peterson gets found guilty. He spends eight years in prison and then fucking dirty Dwayne comes out that he's a lying liar who lies and all this shit comes out. And so even if his fucking, even if his blood spatter analysis in this case was totally correct, it doesn't fucking matter, which some of it is and some of it I understand isn't. Well, a lot of it is just him riffing.

So it's like him at home going, well, if you do this, then this. And if we hear, I'm going to do this with this, he's doing a lot of like, I approximated it. So now this is scientific evidence. Like he does it enough times until it fits the story he wants to tell, which is so problematic. Yeah. Yeah. And crazy. And the idea that that amount, what was I going to say?

It was the amount of blood and the, yeah, just to me, it's open and shut in that part where it's like, if you're saying she fell backwards down the stairs a couple times, it still does not. It just doesn't explain that amount of blood. Right. It doesn't. Right. Well, he, so Michael Peterson also had blood on the inside crotch of his shorts. So that, you know, the dirty Dwayne's argument was that could only happen if he was standing

over her beating her blood spatter, which is probably fucking true. Yes. But, but then I guess scientifically you can say, but you could sit here and go, or if he, he's flicked his shoe up and there's some, like you can't attest for what happens to liquid in a certain scenario. The thing I think is super fake. I mean, like it sucks because that guy himself being a fraud made everything a fraud where it's still, it's the amount of blood at whatever direction it's spattered in or whatever.

This is not a, I fell down the stairs and hit my head a couple of times reasonably. Yeah. This is like a murder scene. But there's like four things. We'll get to all of them, but there's four things that make you go, this isn't, this isn't an open and shut case. And one of them is dirty Dwayne and we'll get to the other ones. Well, and the daughter, I never saw this in the staircase,

but the daughter, Caitlin, who was Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage, she said that when they first, when Kathleen and Michael first got married and she moved into the house with the family, she saw him with like a hair trigger temper and rage issues several times. I've never heard that. In this episode of American Justice, they have her speaking and she's not in, as far as I remember, she's not in the staircase. She's not because she was every, his two biological sons, his two adopted daughters

and Caitlin, who was Kathleen's daughter, were all on his side. And then Caitlin saw the autopsy report and changed her mind. But she ended up suing him too and taking him to court and winning for wrongful death. Okay, sorry, we're ready because he did it. Because it's like he did it just from the get go. But okay. Let's talk about the fucking problems that pop up and they pop up. It's so interesting on the staircase because they pop up during the recording.

Do you want to get into those? Sure. The gay porn thing. I love that guy. He's my favorite part of the staircase. Oh my God. What did he, well, this is argument on the stand. What did he say verbatim?

I knew diddly. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think he had a lot of good quotes. Let's get into it. Okay, so what I wrote about was that like there were two motives. And one was that Kathleen had a $1.5 million life insurance policy. Why? Uh-huh.

Well, because she was very fucking wealthy, had a good job. But so around $2 million with all of her assets at the time of her death. And that the Petersons were at the time were facing financial issues. They had $143,000 in debt at the time of Kathleen's death. Kathleen's company was undergoing major layoffs. Kathleen was in danger of losing her $145,000 a year job and her benefits. And she had deferred a lot of her salary. So they didn't have a lot of cash, which is why they were in so much debt.

And Michael hadn't had income for a lot of years. So, so, and also, I think secretly the sons were in a lot of debt as well. Because there was an email to Michael Petersons ex-wife talking about how they were going to deal with their son's debt. And in the email, it said, Michael says, I cannot speak to Kathleen about this. Oh, because it's like, because the money was such a huge issue. Because who knows why? Yeah, because money was an issue because she was sick of, you know, this is speculation,

because she was sick of helping them because, you know, they weren't her biological sons for whatever reason, you know, they'd gotten an illegal trouble in the past, which is true. So, so there was some secretive stuff going on about money. So there's money, which I don't think is, I think this is a crime of passion. I don't think the money. No, I don't think I don't think the money and I don't think the gay porn, which he don't know in the American justice, they're like, Kathleen was on his hour on his computer two hours before her death.

And they the theory is that she stumbled upon. I don't think it's the gay porn. I think it's like that he was trying to hire a sex and gay sex worker to have sex with. And she stumbled upon that information. You don't think it's that? No, no. What do you think the motive is? I don't know.

But I mean, you could her going on his computer doesn't mean she found anything. Yeah, but okay, except that she never went on that computer. The only reason she was doing it is because that the next morning she had a conference call. And so she didn't have her home, her work laptop at home with her. So one of her colleagues sent her some information that she needed to get off the home computer. So she checked it before midnight, which she never did. She had to ask Michael Peterson for the password to get into the their like joint email account. So she was never on that computer.

And he had printouts of a conversation he had with a male escort about the kind of sex that they were going to have. And like when he could come over, I read all those the emails between the two of them. It's fucking intense. Well, but is there proof that she read that? Well, I mean, no, but if she opened the drawer, one drawer to get a pen or whatever and found this or, you know, clicked on one email in their email chain and saw it. I mean, it's so easy when she's on that PC to find any evidence of this gave this, you know,

his bisexuality, his hiring escorts, his affairs with men that he had had in their relationship. It's so easy if she had not stumbled upon that and then died that night. I mean, it's just it there's there's too much of a link between those two things to me. Well, I just think if he'd been doing that secretly for a long time, he wouldn't have them printed up and sitting in a drawer like he probably got in a way with it for so long that he was he thought. Well, it's not that I mean, it's like what they were together for eight years or like it's 10 years before they got married. Well, so I guess my point is this I don't I don't buy the idea that all of a sudden she's clicking things and it's like that's it. And also because he that's her being enraged at him.

I think something happened where he like she was like she's like, I'm gonna what the fuck is this I'm gonna expose you get the fuck out of my house. You're not getting he has no money. He hasn't had a job in three years. She's like, but that's like so you're saying that the marriage was like eroding anyway, and then this was her the like left final straw. No, I think her finding emails that he is literally planning for that week of meetup with a gay escort to and in the emails rim job, he's a top like this is how big a stick is he's he's had sex in the past with these men. He's done like the emails are insane and a conversation of not someone who is new at this right so she finds those emails and and realizes and comes downstairs and confronts him. What the fuck is this? This isn't like this is not who I married I'm losing my fucking mind, you know, has the emails in her hand goes to walk upstairs.

He fucking panics his whole life is about to be exposed. Sorry, so do we know for a fact those emails were printed up? Yeah, that's that's a that's evidence that they had not that they had the lawyers printed them but Michael Peterson printed the email according to forensic files. Yes, they were printed in his in the drawer in his office. Okay, well, just to I guess my point is that's all very that just seems like if he had a secret gay life that would be something. I just didn't see that relationship and the and the way I guess it was presented. I was thinking more of she did some said something to him that was more of like her attacking him. Why couldn't it be your fucking gay?

It can be what is this I'm just telling you that it seems really it's convenient because it's the one night she uses the computer the one time and then she finds everything. All A and then B the lawyers use that in the courtroom as this huge thing of like, oh my God, he's not who anybody. And it was to me that was one of those moments in the documentary that was so amazing because then you watched all of those people in Durham be like this is disgusting. This is horrifying. Oh my God, this is insane where it's like actually there's tons of people that do it all the time. But I think which is why I loved that fucking sex worker because he got up there and just like, yeah, this is what it's happens a lot. It's not a big deal. But I don't think I don't think that the people in Durham and in the in the documentary, Michael Peterson's talks a lot of shit about closed mindedness here in North Carolina, blah, blah, blah.

But I don't think they were upset with him being bisexual or having homosexual relationships. I think that they were pointing out what a liar Michael Peterson was. And Michael Peterson was saying that Kathleen knew about his infidelities with men was open to him being bisexual and experiencing that outside of his relationship with her. But I think the argument was he's he's a known liar. He's lied about he lied about getting the purple heart in Vietnam. He lied that his injury he had gotten some injuries in a car accident in Japan years before and said that he had gotten them in Vietnam. His ex-wife and he divorced because he was having affairs with men and women. So they were showing him as a known liar and and saying that she knew about the gay relationships takes away the motive that he would have killed her because she found out about that night and he flipped the fuck out.

Well, I mean, look, I'm it's not like I'm saying that isn't true or I'm I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying to me that seems like it pulls through the thing because in the documentary, they do in the courtroom, people act like holy fuck. It's on camera. It's like one of the biggest parts of the documentary. I mean, no, that's just my point of people in Durham were freaked out about it. People in Durham were it did become the way that that woman, Frida Brown, the prosecutor starts talking about him and this. Yeah, and she's so evil about it. It's like she's like the wicked witch of the West. So that to me, I felt like that was a card that they played to cast him in this light in the courtroom to make him look bad. And then when you watch the documentary, like, well, those people are bad and that makes him good.

And so you start playing against, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, they're bad and he's good, but I think maybe the card was he's. I think they were surprised to hear that a married, a straight married man was having these illicit relationships with men. I don't think it was that he's having relationships with men. This man's having a relationship with men. I think it was definitely. I mean, I'm not so fucking stupid that I think that, you know, people don't get surprised when. They find out someone's gay, obviously. But I think part of it was did I mean, it's such a it's such a great narrative of she found out this thing about him that he, you know, even if she knew he looked a gay porn, found out that he is he's planning on meeting up with and paying for sex from a gay escort. As she found out that night, that's the night she died. Like the fact that she was on the computer that night, even though she's never on the computer.

And that's the night she slipped and but we don't know fat for a fact. That's the night she found out. We just know that he had printed up emails and that he erased that like that the cops found out he was erasing stuff off his computer. And then they went in and were like, your computer's filled with gay porn and you're having these affairs. But she went on, but she went on the computer for the first time in a long time that night that she died. Yes, I get that. That's a crazy coincidence. It's not, though. I mean, I just don't think it's not a crazy coincidence. It's not a coincidence. It's like, that's the motive that she found out that he was paying for sex from a gay guy. But I get it. My thing is, I think it's too much of a coincidence to say all of those things happened because she was like,

oh, I got to check my email here. I in my mind, that's that's a thing that got pulled through so that it would be like, you know, salacious. So it would be against him. And then, you know, and then when the documentary comes and everyone in like 2015 or whenever it was looks at that, they're like, well, fuck those southern bigots. And then and that makes him look good somehow. But I guess my point was, I think something else happened that would like when he talks and he is so remote and calm. And oh, he's just so affable and so intelligent. And so you see that thing where it's like, but the one thing that would turn him and I don't I'm not saying I know what it is. I'm just saying it's a thing that makes him snap, go into a rage and then beat her till the whole fucking stairwell is bloody.

So like, it's not it's not like, hey, you and you, you did this and you did that or her like being shrill and up maybe he's never been abusive before. No, he has been. Oh, has he? Yes. Well, the well, then we get into, right? Then we get into the family friend, the woman in Germany. But is that okay? Yes. So the other weird bombshell that came out during the it was during the staircase being filmed. Well, it's during the case. But I mean, it's because her Kathleen's is it Kathleen's sister or his first wife sister calls and says, you do realize, right? Oh, no, sorry, it's the girl's mother's sister. So it's the girl's aunts that that Michael Peterson is their adopt words. And the aunt calls and says, you do realize their mother was like died at the bottom of a staircase after he walked them home.

And he was the last person to see her. Yeah, he walked the mother and girls home after they ate dinner at the Peterson's house. And then a neighbor saw him running out of the house later on. And she was found at the bottom of the stairs with seven lacerations on her head and the back of her head. Exactly the same fucking death 20 years before. That's insanity. It it here. Let's see. OK, so yeah. So so two decades before Michael Peterson found Kathleen at the bottom of her stairs, he had been friends with another woman named Elizabeth Ratliff.

And they had all lived in Germany. Michael Peterson was married to his first wife at the time, had his two sons. Elizabeth apparently died after a fall down a staircase. And Michael had been the last person alive. They ruled authorities ruled Ratliff's death to be of natural causes, concluding that a cerebral hemorrhage caused her to fall and strike her head, which makes absolutely no sense. Right. So they're saying something basically she was at the top of the stairs one. Oh, my God, my head and fell down the stairs.

It's got seven lacerations and it's almost like that one time you want you get what happened. You get why they concluded that, you know what I mean? It's almost like, yeah, OK, that could have happened fell down the stairs. Right. Not looking into it had headaches before like, supposedly it had headaches before weeks before that happened. So she also looks so fucking identical. Elizabeth Ratliff and Kathleen look like they could be fucking sisters in the most insane way. Yes, there's a part where there's side by sides of Elizabeth in the like 70s probably and Kathleen.

And you could completely go, oh, that's her in the 70s and that's her now. Yeah, totally. They look so similar. Totally. It's insane. And it's this thing of like, you know, did he kill the first woman? Did he kill Elizabeth or did Elizabeth just die that way? And so when he killed Kathleen 20 years later, he set up her body to look the way Elizabeth, you know, like maybe he didn't kill Elizabeth the first one.

Maybe she actually died that way. And he and he in this moment of like, well, I need to set the body to look like it was an accident kind of recreated the same scene. But that would mean he was at the scene. Right, right. Because he probably know he found her body. He came he came when the nanny found Elizabeth Ratliff's body. She went and got Michael Peterson. Oh, so he saw it. Yeah. OK. But I also don't believe that I think he killed.

No, no. Well, also because it doesn't explain the seven last rations. It doesn't explain. It's like in the. What was that fucking Jessica Biel show called? Yeah, the center. Remember when she stabs him the exact same way? Yeah. It's that's what it reminds me of where it's like seven seven head last rations, where it's like if it's a blow poke or if it's whatever the thing is,

it's like someone goes fuck you, walks away from him, goes upstairs or however it happens. And he just walks up and goes, no, no, no, no, no. And that's his muscle memory. That's what he does to stop someone. And it's a rageaholic explosion where it's like this crazy attack and it happens the same way. And then I mean, who knows? This is all obviously bullshit theory. But but we're right.

But but to me, he does really seem like one of those people that's like he's going to keep it so chill no matter what, because he does it all the way through the. That's so. Every time I'm talking to camera in the staircase is like one of the most infuriating things to me. This is why part of the reason why I didn't I couldn't watch more than five episodes is I was just like, I do not want to see this man again and hear him speak. Like it was one of those things where Vince had to be like, OK, Georgia,

we need to go to bed because I was screaming at him about not screaming. But I was like, oh, you know, just yelling at him because he's such a fucking narcissistic and he does that. He's a little bit of a like Mr. Magoo, where he's like, oh, I don't really know. Right. He's making jokes. He's like his brother's there and they're all just kind of, oh, wow. Very interesting. Yeah.

And it's there's no shame. There's doesn't seem to be any real affect. So he's not like you don't see him. He the only time he ever seems like worried or to have real human reactions is when they're talking about how much jail time he's looking at. Other than that, it's like, oh, Kathleen, she was really something. He also doesn't. He answers things in a way incorrectly. Like so I printed out this thing from the Maliki crime notes where

I would never have done anything to hurt her. So, okay. So at the at the end of that, I whisper her name, bullshit. When he says, I would never have done anything to hurt her. He the way he says that it's an unreliable. So she's this chick, Ursula Franco says it's an unreliable denial saying I would have never done anything to hurt her. And then you can add in unless unless she says she had done something wrong.

I would have never done anything to hurt her to begin with. Right. And then he also says hurt instead of kill to minimize and distance himself from what happened to deal with the negative emotions. And she says it's a common strategy used by guilty people to deal with feelings of guilt. And then he says, I am innocent of these charges. That doesn't mean he didn't kill her. He's innocent of the charges he's being brought up on. Right. Right. So it's it's another not reliable denial to affirm to be innocent

is different from saying I didn't kill, which is expected. When people say they are innocent, they're just denying the conclusion that they are guilty. And just when they say and when they say I didn't do it, they are denying the action. So he's saying he's he's not guilty of the charges leaving out what the charges are, again, not telling you. I'm innocent of killing my wife.

And it's that it's the super ego maniacal thing of I am innocent. Yeah, this is about me and I'm being persecuted. And it's so sad for me. Right. I didn't kill my wife. Yeah, I would never I would never hurt Kathleen. Yes. Nothing like that. I will. I would never hurt Kathleen conceptually. Right. I mean, not really. Yeah.

But yeah, it's so fucked up. Oh, and then he says in in the oh, yes, I'm truly innocent of these charges. Of course, when you say truly, it's like, why are you making a why are you making a like a qualifier? Yes, as opposed to regular innocent. Right. Yeah, truly. But then another quote he says is when I think of Kathleen, and he says this in the staircase, when I think of Kathleen, I remember

unfortunate, what I remember, unfortunately, is her dying in my arms. That's true. She died in my arms. Why do you have to say that? Kill. It's he's like goosing the sympathy. Yeah. And it's also like we think she died hours before that. So him saying it's true. She died in my arms because the first time he called 911 when he said she was still alive and the second time he said she wasn't.

But based on the neurons, which we need to talk about the red blood neurons in her brain, she died hours before. Then he says, then he says he says something about how the last time that was he says when she was walking to go back into the house after they had been sitting outside that that was the last time he saw her alive. And then he goes, oh, except for when I found her, like he has to be like, oh, fuck, my story is that I found her alive at the bottom of the stairs,

which he didn't. He forgot. Right. He forgot that was the story. Right. Well, the one thing I was going to say is they talk about the it really bugs me like I when I was watching the documentary, the prosecutorial team, which he hired before there were charges against him. And when another narcissistic creep. Yes, that that lawyer.

Yeah, what's his name? I remember Rudolph, but sort of thing. But basically, he tries to say there is no way that somebody could beat somebody else with a blow poke in that staircase. Like or with any instrument that that would have given her those seven deep lacerations in the back of her head at the bottom of that staircase. There's not enough room that that you couldn't pull that thing up over your head over and over and beat some with that.

Which is a bullshit because you don't know that's not the blow poke itself. So that's it's like predicating everything on this one concept, which is like, we don't know if that's it. I don't know if it's a blow. That's the murder weapon is what I'm saying. Yeah. And also or could he could just be holding it right up to the the hills and not it's not like he's got it at the very end. Or I read in another thing that maybe he just hit her head against the stairs.

Sure. And that's that's. And that would take a small hit to open the scalp up and not cause brain and skull fractures, which is one of the points that people made is if he had beaten her, there'd be skull fractures and there wasn't. So if it was an up close hit, there wouldn't be skull fractures. Maybe because she died by bleeding out. She didn't die from a skull fracture. Right. Which normally I think most doctors would say, if you fell down the stairs,

hit your head a bunch of times, you still wouldn't bleed out. Right. You wouldn't bleed out that quickly. And you'd have a concussion. But the other thing is that then later on, they try, they attempt to get a retrial because the neighbor finds a tire iron and then they say they, they withheld this evidence that the prosecution withheld this evidence. And so the defense was like, we need a new trial because they withheld the possibility there could be a prowler that had a tire iron.

Jesus. So all of a sudden, the same people are arguing the exact same. The opposite of what they were saying, which is like, oh, so a prowler could beat her with a tire iron, but he couldn't beat her with a blow poke. Right. That makes sense. It doesn't. It's so crazy. Also that the blow poke was missing and later in the in the documentary, one of the other son finds the blow poke in the garage, which is weird. Well, and the police, who we all know, like, you know, it's we're very biased in this.

But the police in the American justice are like, we went all over that garage. The blow poke was not in the garage. And didn't they find the blow poke without the end, the tip? Yeah. I mean, and they all they did was they didn't find it, leave it where it was, call the cops, everybody go take pictures. They presented it in court to say, we found this. Yeah. And it was on video, right? Like while they were recording the documentary.

Yeah. Yeah. So then we're like, here it is, we found it. Here it is, everybody. And then they're just like, well, yeah, you could have any. You can put that there and then the camera was recording. And oh, my God, this is so perfect. Yeah, like that doesn't mean anything, but they were introducing. They were doing that tricky shit of introducing

yeah, ideas that are like, oh, reasonable doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Also. So there's all these injuries to her head and neck contusions all over her arms and the back of her arms, and she has zero injuries to her knees and legs, which you think falling down the stairs, you'd absolutely hit your fucking leg. 100%. So then the other thing, God, can we talk about Dr.

Henry Lee? Oh, my God. Oh, him spitting that ketchup. Oh, my God. It's so and also, you know, they hired him really early. Yeah. They hired him. They made sure he was available. Like basically these lawyers knew this thing was going to blow up. He was like semi-famous author. So they knew they just they got their all their heavy hitters

like they knew this could be a big thing. Yeah. And they could they could make it a big thing that they're going to get. If he's the guy that got off, you know, that was a football player, right, basically exonerated for murder, then he then they also were like, well, we'll get Dr. Henry Lee. He's from the OJ trial and we'll get these people and like just line everybody up so it looks like here's here's what it looks like. A team of people who get people off.

They wouldn't pay this amount of money if they didn't think he was. You know what I mean? Yeah. OK, so here. OK, so rare red neurons. OK, basically, there were these neurons in Kathleen's brain that were consistent with the brain having a long period, like a couple hours lack of oxygen before dying. So essentially, it shows that these injuries for her head happened hours before he called 911 and she died.

And to me, that's a little bit of this means she was unconscious a while before she actually died. Right. So that to me, that's all you that's all you really need. Like, because it's even longer than his claimed 45 minutes of like, I was out drinking by the pool and then I went and he's on 911. He's like, she's alive. So that would have been 45 minutes. Yeah. And that's not consistent with you can't neurons don't lie.

Right. That's that's that's deep. That's deep science. Yeah. Also. The. The thyroid cartilage that was that was damaged. I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah. How they describe that. Was it like? You can't break cartilage, right?

So it's like it was but it was hemorrhaging. Yeah. And so basically, that means when your thyroid cartilage is damaged, that's strangulation. It has a fracture of the thyroid cartilage. Oh, OK. So you can fracture it. So but it's in its pressure on the neck. It's indicative of being strangled, but it also is hemorrhaged. So she was being strangled.

She was alive. This isn't the thing where she fell down the stairs, broke her neck. Yeah. And that's why that was damaged. She she was strangled while alive. Yeah. Almost like someone was holding her down. Yeah. And also had their foot on the back of her leg to keep her in place and was straddling her at the same time. And that's how he got blood spatters on the inside of his shorts.

Yeah. And just hit her on the back of the head as she was sitting on the stairs, flipped her over so that she looked like she had come right down. Tried to clean up a little bit. She came back. She came back to consciousness, consciousness, consciousness. And he had to hit her again, covered up those blood spatters, called 911.

I mean, or a prowler came in and hit her with an owl. Let's add those together before we're going to fucking do this. The owl theory. The idea of the owl theory is from a neighbor, like a nosy neighbor who has nothing to do with the case, but he's like, I know what this is and it can't be him. And this is really what it is. When you for me, people believe it though.

People totally believe it. We're going to get to that. And I get the thing where people I was looking up owl injuries today. Yeah, because I was like, what do those look like compared to what these, both of these cases of both of these women with seven lacerations on the back of their head, what do they look like? Not the same because owl talons look like puncture wounds. Right. And these and the lacerations are long, drag marquee, like cut, deep cuts.

They'll do the impasse. What do they put it when they put the talon over the wound to show you what it looks like? But actually, owl talons, it's not three claws in the front and one in the back. It's they have three. And it's, you know, yes, I'm not a fucking owl doctor. It's mostly just those three that go like that. Right. They're kind of like they take up all that space

and the one in the back up here and fun and cool. And I like reading about it, but it's not true. I don't think it's true because you was there. Are you then saying you would have to then say that the that what's the woman in Germany's name, Liz, Elizabeth? Yeah, Ratcliffe, Ratcliffe, Ratcliffe, Ratcliffe. Um, that she was also attacked by now. Like, it doesn't make sense because it's the exact same death.

Yeah. He's the common denominator. Like, maybe the fucking owl found the gay porn. Could you imagine that I was like, I never use this computer. Yeah. But tonight. That's how fucking ridiculous it is. I mean, look, also with that theory, he was long ago enough that he could have been keeping all of his porn

in a little file that said porn underneath it. And then she was like, you know what? I'm just sure what kind of women does he like? What kind of like maybe he was maybe she was fine with him being into gay porn. Like that's my thing about it. It's like maybe he she did know he was bisexual and was OK with it. Yeah. Like that's fine.

Nothing's wrong with that. But I think when you get over into fucking paying for sex territory. Yes. Having affairs is a different thing. Having an affair with a male escort in your home while you're at work. Yeah. You know, that's Anne. Kathleen had divorced her fucking first husband because he was having an affair. So I didn't know that.

So she's not OK or how you know, had cheated on her. So she's not OK with affairs based on the fact on her history. Fuck no. Well, no one's OK with affairs. I don't even mean affairs. I mean, like, you know, open marriages. Yeah. And he did write in one of the emails to this dude he was trying to hire. I have a married man to a wonderful woman.

And she knows or and, you know, something like that. So it's like, it's just such a weird mindset. It's like he does whatever he wants and rationalizes it probably. I think, you know, it freaked me out even more is that the way that Kathleen and Michael met was because when they when after Michael got divorced from his first wife and I think her name is Patty and they moved out, she took the sons and Michael stayed with the two girls. The two girls started playing with Caitlin in the neighborhood.

And that's how Kathleen and Michael met in the first place is because all the girls were friends. Yeah. And I don't know why that freaks me out so much, but it's like it's not like they they came together in this weird way that there's so there's like family photos of them that make me uncomfortable. Like, but they're all standing together as like this Brady Bunch family. Yes.

I don't how old were the adopted girls when Michael and Kathleen got married? They were older. Yeah, because they had they I think those girls met each other when they were like preteens, maybe. And then they were together for like eight years. So the fact that they called Kathleen mom makes me a little uncomfortable. I just the whole Michael just seemed like a cult leader to me. And these these two adopted girls who lost first they lost their biological father.

Then their mother died in these insane circumstances. They go to live with this family and family friend and his wife. They divorce. Yep. The two girls are with this guy. They find this great woman and they're like, oh, like it's almost this like, did Michael tell the adopted daughters to call Kathleen mom in a manipulative way because it would make her want to stick around?

You know what I mean? Or is it just that they wanted normalcy? Right. And they just were like, OK, great. These are landed. We're doing this like we're building our own family and we're going to make this work. Well, the sons called her mom too. Didn't they?

Yes. But no, they couldn't have they had their own mom like a living mom. And they did they did. But that whole dynamic there's something off about it to me. Well, because in this I keep talking about like it's my pride and joy in this American Justice, there is a part where they are all and I wonder if the the producers of that show manipulated them. But they're all sitting around looking at like Christmas pictures.

And one of the daughters says, oh, yeah, this is she loved her stare. She always had to put her Christmas decorations. And basically, she's talking about the front like the staircase, which there's a photo of them together in her wedding dress on the stairs. Yeah. So creepy. And but basically, it's just her it's them talking about it like, oh, she loved her stairs and the way and it's and but she goes, it's so cute.

And it's just like them all trying to act like we have the best. We had the most perfect life. We had the most perfect life. They were so in love. It's almost like if I guess what I guess in the staircase, the daughters, the adopted daughters feel like they're being paraded to to show to give Michael Peters and sympathy that he has a family who supports him the way they're shown emotionally so much and talked about as and they speak on camera so like, you know, emotionally that their

dad could never do this. It almost seems like they're being used by him and his side in a way to show to have empathy because he has fucking none. Well, I mean, they it seems like it's absolutely their choice. So right. It's what they want to do. And I feel like they understand the importance of if someone is accused of this terrible crime, especially if they're innocent, which they believe he is or at least.

But there's no room for them to even grapple with that idea. Otherwise. I don't think you could in that scenario because it would be like you this is like now it's us against them. Right. It's not there's no room for great. I need my dad. What happened?

I need my dad to not have done this. There's that. Could you imagine? Because then if he did that, then he also it opens the door to their own mother. Well, they fucking end up okaying their own mother, their biological mother, Elizabeth Ratliff, being fucking exhumed. Yes. Because they and they think it's going to prove him innocent.

Right. And instead, instead, her cause of death gets changed to homicide. Yes. Because they see those fucking lacerations and it's all mirror image. But instead, everyone is against Michael Peterson. And that's the that's their that's his narrative is instead, they're against him. Right. And they're making this stuff up.

Which maybe it's true because this fucking blood analyst was making shit up. I mean, he was. That's the nothing is simple, nothing is simple and nothing is ever all one way. These are the good guys and these are the bad guys ever. I have room for the fact that I could be totally fucking wrong about all of this and he might be innocent. 100 percent. I am not.

I will never be like, not never, but there's room for that. Yes, there is. This is just how this seems based on the information that I've been able to find and the vibes and the vibes. It's that vibe that that's the thing that drives me the craziest is I just want to go. You don't think you're convincing the right of all people because I don't buy your dumb pipe. Those eyebrows in that pipe are not fooling me.

And also it's just the I'm I'm I'm like, I'm a connoisseur of good acting and this is not good acting at all. And why are you acting to begin with? Yes. Why can't you just bad? It's like you can still tell acting whether it's good or bad. Why are you bothering the thing that we both named the thing that I played a recording of is it's terrible acting, it is inappropriate, it's the there is absolutely nothing genuine

about it whatsoever. It is as rehearsed. It's like bad community theater. It's the first time of him speaking to the media, too, and he thinks that's what's going to make them get on his side, yes, because he doesn't understand basic human emotions such as be if you're crying and you are freaking out about what's going on, people are on your side because they're like, that's a real emotion. Right.

That's how he's real. And now I can hear the people that would argue of like, nobody grieves the same or he was that's not grieving. He was in a position that nobody could anticipate or imagine what he's doing. Well, then why did he have a prepared corny ass fucking statement? Exactly. Right. He's not this isn't like they they trapped him on the street and forced him to give

a statement. This was him breaking his silence to the press and giving a an official statement about these are the words he thought would work. Yes. So fuck you. Yes. It's so crazy. And now I told you that the way I realized he was he was guilty.

Tell me. I had been watching. It was the last season of Breaking Bad. Pretty sure it was last season. And it was right. The end where everything's going crazy and Walt keeps having to leave and then he comes back to the family and, you know, his wife's like, what the fuck hated it. And he was always lying.

And there was a part where he is trying to, you know, the thing where he would always make breakfast. So he was trying to make breakfast and look, I'm making breakfast pancakes, everybody. Normalcy, normalcy. And he is as I think either his son or his wife are trying to talk to him and he's opening these drawers and kind of going, what? No. Yes.

Of course. And like keep fucking with the cupboards and doing stuff while answering questions and like trying to pretend to think but then doing stuff with the cupboards. There is an almost exact scene in the staircase where Michael Peterson is in the kitchen and they're like asking him some really kind of crucial, you know, thing and he is doing Walt exactly from Breaking Bad where it's like, it was such a mirror thing where I was like, whoa, he's totally lying. It was like the exact same thing.

Cranston watched that. I wonder. Brian Cranston. That's what I meant. Brian Cranston watched that. Did Jonathan Overholt watch it? Listen, there's a Jonathan Cranston out there. I bet you anything.

You went to high school with him. You loved him. Right guy. And now you want to know if you watched Breaking Bad. I got meth from him. That's fucking crazy. I know. I just got this weird chill where I was like, oh, Brian Cranston made that acting choice

because that's what it looks like when you lie. And when you're trying to make it seem casual and to give yourself time to answer. Because you look like you're focused on something else and you're not. I'm so distracted by pancake batter bowls. Wait, what? I'm in the middle of a... What's that? Yes.

It's like the weirdest. Yeah. And for me, I was like, that's it. It's over. If I was on the jury, I'd be like full-on, full-on death penalty. Well, at the end of My American Justice. Your favorite episode of... My favorite American Justice.

Your favorite hour of TV show ever. Thank you, Bo Curtis, for your service to us as true crime listeners and watchers. You don't know how much you mean to us. Does he? Bill Curtis? Do you think he does? Oh, you... No?

Could he know? Yeah. No, I don't think he could possibly understand how much we love him. Yeah. As a... Remember, in the very beginning, the very first live show we did was that show in Chicago that was for the Chicago Podcast Festival. And they knew Bill Curtis.

Somebody said that they might be able to get us a Bill Curtis walk-on and we were like, oh my... It was like... We were so excited for so long, but... Bill Curtis, our Lord and Savior. He was... He was busy. Anyhow, at the end of This American Justice, my television show that I produced, there's

a jailhouse interview with Michael Peterson. And in it, he says, I'm in here, I'm as free as I would be out there. And to me, that's that thing of the truly psychotic where he's basically saying, you haven't gotten me. You can do anything you want, but you haven't gotten me. It's also like this system is so messed up outside of here, like the government and your life and stuff. It's the same as in here when really instead of being like, I'm in here because I killed

my wife. Right. And I'm in here because of a huge miscarriage of justice. Right. Please do something. Yes. This is wrong. Like he's okay with it.

I'm innocent. I'm innocent. I didn't kill her. None of that's happening. He's like, look, what your life... He basically is trying to say some bullshit theory of like, you know, whether your life is heaven or hell, it's all in your mind. And he's like at peace with it?

He's... Yes, basically. He goes, I'm not saying I like jail, obviously, but like... But it's this thing where, to me, it's what it is about Michael Pearson, which is to me what's fascinating about killers and psychopaths and all those people where they have... They have to do it. They have to win. They can't not say that thing.

So even if it's going to make them look even guiltier, that's his MO, that's his goal. He has to tell you. You didn't get me. Yes. I'm wearing this jail outfit. Yes. I'm in here. Right.

So, you know, too bad. Or almost as like, he thinks of himself as this beautiful miscarriage of justice. Yeah. And this like... He's a martyr. He's a martyr. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's like, dude, this isn't... That your wife is dead. Right. There's no talk of her. Yeah. Oh, you're... I know. I know.

But that American justice was made in like 2004 or five. So they had no idea... Right. And it continues for quite some time after. Well, that's what's funny about this, this a novel idea episode of Friends of Crows, which you can watch on YouTube, is that I think that they get... So of course, it's before we find out all of these issues around it. And our friend, Dirty Dwayne, is in it like being interviewed as the guy who solved the

case. Yes. And so that's problematic. But I think really, if you ignore that, I think that that episode gets it correct. The whole thing is correct. It's just that the shit that happens afterwards is problematic. So it's so funny that this like dated forensic files without the, you know, fucking addendums and shit.

Yeah. I think it's correct. I do too. I mean... But it does it really well to show you exactly why he's guilty. And then so much shit comes out later. That whole thing was like, what is real? Ugh.

Nothing. I mean, blood spatter evidence experts are fraudulent to the core where it's not even a real thing. Yeah, you can't even... You can't even rely on them. Who can you rely on? Whoever the other person is that's made up their specialty of like, no, no, no, I did this in my basement.

Don't worry. I tested it out on myself. We had a great time. Here's the video. We laughed. We loved. Well, shit, that's fucking Michael, the murder of Kathleen Peterson by Michael Peterson. And in Steven's timeline that I was reading off of, he said that those French documentarians

have another as yet to be released as of December 2017, but they have a third... Yeah, they're working on a third documentary because he was released this year. Yeah. So he did an Alfred plea, which we know from the West Memphis Three basically says that you know that the state has enough to convict you, but so you're agreeing that they have enough to convict you, but you're still saying you're not guilty. Yeah. You're not pleading guilty.

Right. Yeah. So he's out now. Yeah, he had a time-served situation. Right. Which we don't need to get into. Oh, right. That's it.

No, no, no. I'm like, he served 86 months and so now he, and it's concurrent with them? Yeah. All of the way he gets out and gets bonds and in between shit and all that, him going in and out of jail is like, imagine if that was a black man. Oh, right. How you would have never seen that person again. Yeah.

Yeah. The way this keeps just getting entertained because this does happen to other people when it's like, oh yeah, this, all of this has to get thrown out. And they don't immediately throw up a bond and like, hey, let's get this person out of there. Yeah. Hey, this blood spatter analysis has lied in 34 cases. I bet he's lied in these other ones as well.

No, it doesn't turn around like that. It doesn't at all. No. I wonder what Christmas is like with fucking Michael Peterson. What do you think this Christmas is going to be like for everyone? Well, so at the last, so the second addendum French documentary, the staircase to electric bogal. I have to say it every time.

In that one, one of the daughters, I kind of like that we're not naming their names because I feel like they are, they let them live their lives and also just they're, they're really kind of the subject of this documentary. It's like they're, it's so much pain for them. It's been so horrible for them all the whole way. I almost want to go like, if you need to fight and believe it, please do that because yes, it just sucks that their other sister is on the other side, you know, that they're fighting. But in the part two, one of the sisters no longer is speaking out for Michael Peterson.

Okay. Uh, well, the, the daughter, Caitlin Kathleen's actual biological daughter said that when she saw the autopsy, uh, there's like this beautiful quote by her. This somewhere here says, the only thing I have to say is that about the trial and all the subsequent fallout is that, uh, if there was any closure to possibly come from all of this, it came after sitting through the entire trial and listening day after day to all the evidence on both sides. And after the closing arguments, when all was said and done, I felt confident that I

knew what happened. I knew what happened to my mom while there's no true closure that can ever come from an event like this for a loss this deep, I was ready to walk away and start moving forward with my life. And that's Caitlin, you know, thinking that Michael Peterson killed her mother. Right. Yeah. So sad.

And not feeling caught up that her stepfather was also being persecuted or she just was kind of like, yeah, I see this, yeah. It's just awful. It is. It's intense. I'm glad we did it together. Yeah. Should we say we're happy about this week?

Go for it. Should we, should it be like something boring or should it be like, thanks, everyone? Definitely boring. I tried to do it in a very flat voice. Okay. Well, I was just thinking about how different both of our lives were before we started this podcast or when we started this podcast and when we kind of came together at the Halloween party and I lied about having watched the staircase because it sounded right.

And just how grateful I am from this podcast, about by this podcast and the listeners and the community. And I mean, it's kind of in a rough, we think we were both kind of in different reasons and rough points of our lives and going through some of our own shit. And this podcast has changed that completely and made my life into this beautiful fucking thing that I'm so happy for and grateful for. And you know, if all we ever do is a hundred episodes, this is then one of the highlights of my life.

For real? Like one, it feels like a dream. It's so true. It's been insane. I love you very much. I love you too, Karen. And I love that you thought to do this and made me come to your house to do it. I love that you said okay.

But it was one of those things where it was just like, in starting to do it, it was just like, oh yeah, this is like, even if it's just for us. It's so much fun. That conversation we just had about the staircase, even when we were arguing about certain things, was so much fun. That's all I want to do. I know. It's the best.

It's so much fun. But also because, and sometimes it's been, I will say this, I totally agree. And every, I mean, that's part of the fun for me has been this experience of basically kind of standing in the center of an explosion with you and getting through it with you and like truly growing with you, I feel like. Oh my God. Completely. But there have been times where, when we started out, we said whatever the fuck we wanted

because we were just in your house. And then, of course, then we went through like a teenage phase where we got super self-conscious because people started going, you're saying this word wrong and you're doing that wrong and you have the wrong thoughts and you have the wrong ideas. And we're like, you have to do this right. Yes. And then we got real worried about what if we lose people or what if we, and there's just all, it's like the natural growth process.

And now, so that conversation we just had felt so much more like one of the first episodes because, of course, in my mind, I'm going, we can't say that, that's libel, that's whatever we're talking, we're putting words in someone's mouth. But overall, that's the point of this podcast. And I said this at the Kansas City show, I believe, was we're not trying to be 48 hours. We're sitting on the couch watching 48 hours, talking about 48 hours to each other. And we've never wanted to be professional broadcasters or newscasters or anything. We just want to talk about the thing that freaks us out so much and fascinates us so

much. And we're sitting in this room, this loft, pod loft surrounded by art made by these incredible people who we have somehow fucking touched in a way and because we have so much in common with Ray. And I'm just honored. I'm honored. And I'm amazed. And thank you, Steven, too, for being here.

Yeah. It's just, I feel really lucky. It's weird. We are two of the luckiest people. I can't believe it. For sure. Yeah. And, and we're filled with ice cream cake.

Oh, my God. I mean, and for all you guys that have been, you know, one of my favorite. Favorite things is sometimes when we meet people at shows and they say, I've been listening since the beginning. And then I'll go, Oh, you have since the first one. And they'll go, Oh, well, no, I mean, like I came out in episode five and on that last time we were out, someone said that and I go from the beginning and she goes, day one, I found you.

Remember that? Yeah. Told us the story. She said, sorry, I don't remember your name. But she said, I opened it. I was in a bad mood. I opened up my, you know, iTunes podcast, saw the thing and was like, that seems interesting and clicked on it.

Yeah. And she was like, at first I hated your voices. Yeah. That's the other thing. Because she said, at first I thought you're both annoying or something. And then I kept listening and I loved it and I couldn't stop listening. Yeah. It is cool.

And we read all of the notes and all of the messages on Twitter and all, I mean, it's just, it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. My mind is fucking blown. Yeah. We're both, you guys have changed our lives. Thank you so fucking much. We love it. We love it.

We love you. 100 episodes. So fun. Thank you for being here with us. Yeah. We're very grateful. Yeah. And mostly we want you to stay sexy.

And we also want you to don't get murdered. Bye. Elvis Won Cookie. And we also want you to stay sexy. And we also want you to stay sexy.