My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 108 - King Of Police

Episode Date: February 15, 2018

Karen and Georgia cover killer Matthew Hoffman and the murder of Little Grégory.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And welcome to my favorite, the podcast that tells you just things, fucking tons of random terrible things. Right. Without curse words. That's right. This is a, this is an all Christian podcast, child friendly, a child friendly, religious based. We've got fucking railroad or what are they called trains going by in the background?

Ghost trains. Ghost trains. We don't believe in evolution. Everything you could want in a podcast, wow, that trains loud. Yeah. I was doing an Uber the other day and like there was this rock music playing and I was like, okay, rock music, great. And then it was like the lyrics were like, oh fuck, you're trying to sell me hard on

Jesus Christ. And you were like, hava, nagila. I've had that a couple of times in Ubers where I feel like people are like, they're trying to work, they're trying to make a dollar, but they're also like, well I could kill tubers with one stone and be spreading the word of our Lord. I wonder if there's like a cult of, you know, Jesus people who are like, this is how we're going to get people on is we're going to Uber and play pretty good rock music. Pretty good, passable.

Yeah. It's so funny. I did Dave Holmes Friday, last Friday with Chris Fairbanks of Do You Need A Ride? And he said, I can't remember how it came up, but he goes, have you ever had that thing where you, you start to hear a song and you really like it and then you realize it's Christian and then you realize you're like a hypocrite for not liking it? Kind of what happened. Well, I don't want to hear about how he lifts you up and you raise your, your paws in the

air. But he fucking does. He lifts you. Like dirty dancing style, like Patrick Swayze. No one puts Jesus in a corner. Boom. And the podcast. Boom.

Good bye. Lights out. Fuck all y'all. Hey, can I do, can I read this? Cause fine, I've been exposed as being obsessed with bowling. Fine. I don't care anymore. Why haven't we bowled yet?

I know. We've had at least two days. So someone sent us a picture of the bowling socks I was talking about last on the Minnesota. The Minya Soad. Minya Soad. Exactly as I described, three bowling pins, a red bowling ball and what looks like puffs of air at the bottom. Do you think that's the speed of the ball hitting those?

Cause it's like, it's like the, it's almost like a bomb goes off. Yes. On your ankles. Yeah. And there, um, these ones, uh, it says this is for a hard start. That's you, Georgia. Thank you. Oh, cause this is Instagram.

Okay. Stephen Ray Morris, my favorite murder. I believe I got them at Mission Bowling Club. Is that in San Francisco? It is gray wing. This is from gray wing on Instagram, San Francisco. Um, P.S. my grandmother is in the bowling hall of fame. Oh, what?

I'm so proud of your grandma. Who is she? We've please send us more information. Oh yeah. Gray wing, G R E Y W I N G, San Francisco, California. If you could please send us a very concise book report, three to five paragraphs about your grandmother. With photographs from, from when she was playing bowling and as an elderly woman.

What if it's both? Oh my God. What if she started yelling and went all the way into her, into, to modern day? I want to know what she carried in her purse on a regular basis. Hall of Fame though. That's, she's not just a great bowler. She is of the greatest bowlers. And you know, San Francisco, I mean, it's where it's, that's where my people are from.

That's why I'm so passionate about bowling. It's not like they have a shortage of good bowlers. So that means she was really fucking good. That's right. It's what everyone's like up there. It matters. Uh, we're going to go bowling soon. Oh, today's Valentine's Day.

Oh yeah. It's Valentine's Day everybody. Thank you. Well, yesterday was Valentine's Day based on the, when this podcast was going out. Based on the reality you people live in. Right. Not the one that we truly are stuck in. We're currently drinking coffee and whiskey in.

That's right. We're having such a Valentine's Day party. Steven's drinking coffee out of a cat mug, which is his lifelong dream, right? I'm drinking a coffee out of an FBI mug. No, sorry. LA County Coroner mug, which is my dream. Georgia's having some nice whiskey on ice. Out of a vintage fucking tumbler mug, tumbler glass.

Yeah. It looks like something that would absolutely have been left on my grandmother's nightstand. Definitely. And then in the background, there is a train that has not, there hasn't been a train that's come by here in 25 years. We're living our lives. Um, I wanted to tell you that after a 20 year hiatus, I am again reading Stranger Beside Me.

Oh, really? Yeah. What brought you back to us? Zac Efron? Well, people want to hear, people want us to talk about that. We have talked about it. I know, but they want us to, there's more photos now. Okay.

And as, and now that I'm reading it and like in it, I see the photos and like, I know when that was like supposed to have happened and. God. When did Ted Bundy go through a weightlifting phase? That's the question I have. Because the first photo I saw. Oh, really? You think he's too cut?

He's too plainly cut for, from what I, in my limited, as we all know, extremely limited research, he, Ted Bundy always seemed like kind of a skinny little professorial type. I think it's like a skinny, but like, what are the, you know, like a tennis player? Sinui. Sinui. He's a Sinui type. This is why you wanted Gary. Sinis?

Sinis. Maybe we just happened to, is it Sinis or are you just saying that because it's Sinui? Someone you said you wanted to play him before this whole efferon thing came out. It was not Gary Sinis. Who was it? Yep. Steven. Come on, Steven.

You can't put your hands up like you don't work here. You son of a bitch. Steven. Steven, you had one job. You have one job which is to memorize every word I say. It's not Gary Sinis. No. It's Gary Sinis.

It's, oh God, what's his name? He looks like. It's someone who looks like that. Who would you want to play? Let's start over. Who do you think should play Ted Bundy? Not Zac Efron. I always stroke my minorly invisible beard.

It's. Forget it. Edit this out. No, this is. No, Steven's saying no. This is. Steven's like, you don't decide. He looks like Bill Pullman.

Okay. I remember this and I remember when it hit me, I was like, I make fucking cash out of my fucking casting genius. You were and he's in the movie. It's not Chris Pine. Is he? No. Okay.

Is he in the movie with Jack Nicholson? When Jack Nicholson is. Greg Kinnear. Greg Kinnear. There are people who have been screaming at their podcast. I know. Machines. Gary and Greg.

So similar. You were right there with that G. I mean, with the four letter word and the G. Kennear is the with dark hair because his eyes are little. He's good looking classically, but his eyes are just enough close together that you are suspicious of his agenda. Is this train circling the apartment? I think the train is coming for us.

Can you hear it, Steven? Okay. Good. It's we're tied on the trap right now. We haven't paid our rent. We haven't paid our rent. Steven is twirling his mustache as he watches us tied to the track. Oh, good.

Buster Keaton's here. Oh, great. I, you know, I'm having now, of course, I'm having Ted Bundy nightmares. Okay. Because you're in that book. And I keep saying, stop reading this, Georgia. Stop reading this, Georgia. And I can't put it down.

It's so good. It's so good. And it's also so dated. And Ann Rule, like she should never have died because she just needs to keep updating this book. It's the idea, like when she tells that story, the idea that she was the single mother who was trying it was working for the police department, but it was also trying to be a freelance writer. And she's like, what are the fucking chances and she's, but she's also volunteering at

night. Like what? What a badass. And then she volunteers next to pretty much the one, second only to like Ed Gein or Dahmer, like, maybe Dahmer, Gacy, but one of the like, yeah, no, I think everyone, I think Ted Bundy was relatable to everyone because he was hot. Yes. He was so tricky.

He was the ultimate like Wolf and Sheep's clothing. Totally. He was, he was kind of small. She didn't even believe that he could have done it for so many. She didn't believe it when it was like, it's, we've found a man in a gold Volkswagen bug. She called her friends at the detective agency and was like, just look into my friend. I know this is weird. Yes.

Like she even turned him in and she was like, I don't, it can't be. It can't be him. But could you look because she was like, I can't deny this, he's a stacking up fax. Right. But still it's not him. I know it's not him. And I'll, yeah. That's the classic sociopath, like, or psychopath.

We didn't know it. Well, we, I wasn't boring. They, you know, they didn't know it at the time that that was a thing that even though someone doesn't look like a fucking murderer or act like it, no one, those people don't act like murderers. Yeah. Well, now we know what, well, so the movie is coming out of with Zac Efron. I hope he kills it.

I'm looking forward to it. I think he will. I think he looks like him enough. And the other thing that she keeps talking about is that he was like a shape shifter that he looked different all the fucking time, which is why it was so hard to pin down is that he kind of always changed his look. That's right. In fact, you can, if you look it up online, and I'm sure everyone that's most of the people

listening have already seen this, but there is a collage of his mug shots and you can see how the way they couldn't, like when he went from Seattle to Utah, and it's not even like a beard or not a beard. It's just this look in his face that's so different. And that's the spookiest part. Yeah. And then by the time he gets to Florida, he's just a fucking maniac. Could have Zac Efron, man.

What a fucking role. Yeah. I think you can do it. Oh, what a dream. Well, so there's this, there's this documentary, can I just say this? He can't, I hope he knows. And if they're still shooting and he can hear me, don't smile with your eyes because that's, you got to go dead zone.

Totally. With those crazy eyes. Totally. Because Zac Efron's a big like, he's like one of, the reason he's like a Disney star is because he's one of those 12-year-old boys that would wink at a grown woman. It's a specific type of- He's a beaver. He's a, he's a Ryan McBuff.

Let's do this again. Oh my God. He's a Ryan. Let's do it some more. The one- Who's the one everyone loves? I don't like him. Steven?

Ryan Seacrest? No! Why? Are you fucking kidding me, Steven? He's the one. You know the blonde one who was in Drive. Drive, right? Ryan Gosling.

Thank you. He's a Gosling. You were almost fired. He's a Gosling. Seacrest. God damn it. Steven out. Of a job.

That's how you fire Steven. What if- That's how Ryan Seacrest fires people. Joanne out of accounting. Oh Joanne. Joanne out. She did her best. She tried, but-

Okay, so there's a documentary that's been being made of Ted Bundy that I really want to come out before. You know, it's the thing of like, you know, I haven't watched I Tanya yet, but I made sure to watch the 30 for 30 about Tanya Harding before I watched eventually. The Hollywood version. Exactly. Because you want to see what really happened. So there's this documentary that this woman, Celine Beth Cauldron, called her on?

Called her on probably. She's been trying to make called Theodore the documentary and she's trying to raise funds on Indy Gogo. She's the first female filmmaker to make a documentary about Ted Bundy, which I think we both know is huge because she's focusing on the victims and not Ted Bundy being this like Marilyn Manson. Marilyn Manson. Type.

Also- So they've always wore that one blue contact. They're doing an Indy Gogo thing, but they're even with that, they're giving 5% of what they make to rain. Oh, that's amazing. So like, she's not, I mean, I just really hope it comes out before. So what's her name again? So her name is Celine Cauldron.

Cauldron. Cauldron. And it's Theodore the documentary. And she keeps, I follow her on Instagram, she keeps posting, like there's a photo of a fucking Ted Bundy, like never seen before next to the fucking bug. And then she got like, she's interviewed a fucking shit ton of people who were involved have never like spoken before about it and she needs money to interview more people so she can make the documentary.

I really want it to be made. Yes. And also it's such a passion project. That's amazing. If you have, if you're up there and on your, on your high hill in your mansion and you want to throw some dollar bills a certain way, that would be amazing. You go, go, and then you just look up Theodore the documentary. And I just think it should come out beforehand.

And then give the equal amount to rain also. Right. Yeah. Get it all done in one. In one donation. Don't be a dick. Come on. Stop being so greedy on your hill.

I didn't know what mean you are. Why are you up on that hill in the fucking first place? Ryan Seacrest, you owe it to everyone to make this documentary happen. Ryan, we know that you have nine jobs, which means that you could donate what, 50 grand and get this fucking thing made. 50 grand is nothing for him. You're natural. You're a, you're America loves you.

Love us back. Yeah. Is that too strong? No. For Valentine's Day. It's Valentine's Day. Ryan Seacrest, you're my Valentine. Love is in the air and whatnot.

Someone knows something season four started. Ah. Loving it. David Rigen. I love something. Someone knows something. He's so good. This new one is about.

I love something, something, something. This new one is about this dude who gets sent this. This bomb explodes in his fucking hands, dies, still hasn't been solved. It was like 1996. What? And goes back to fucking figure out what happened. It's super good, right? And I'm really angry because they didn't drop all the episodes at once.

Oh. They're good to wait, which is so smart, but. There's nothing worse than having to wait. But I hate it. That's great. Yeah. It's good. Does he, does he crunch down any country lanes?

He fucking does his signature crunching towards the door from his car. Beautiful. He does, it's his thing. It's his signature. I see him in my mind as I listen to him do that and it's such a delightful and yet also incredibly upsetting movie. Only he can get away with that. Yeah.

Because it's such a documentary filmmaker thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. You know. It's so exciting that there's another season. I love it. Yay. That's all I have to say.

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slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wunderies podcast against the odds. In our next season, three mask men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chautchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for

ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wundery app. Okay, so this was a story that I wanted to do when we were in Columbus. Okay. But it's too awful.

Oh, good. Uh, so I'm going to go back. I know that these days I've been doing lots of slightly off kilter, lighter, whatever types of stories. I've gone all the way back to the Ridge. This is a fucking awful, awful and recent murder. And you can't tell them why you can't do it at live shows. Well, in live shows, well, first of all, we have to have stuff that we can talk about

and riff about and like, and connect over and kind of go like, wait, what did you just say or whatever? And when it's a, especially if it's a recent murder, um, if children are involved, if it's unsolved, if it's, you know, just, if it's, if it's just relentless horror, if it hits too close to home, you just don't want to, it's horrible. Yeah. And also I think everyone together, I mean, we've had times where we've talked about really hard stuff, but then, but it can't just be that way the whole time.

So, but when I was looking this up, I was on, I was like, I think it might be worth it because there's an element to this that is so fascinating. It's, it kind of transcends the horror of what happened. Well, I think we should do whatever we want when it's you and I, and they're Steven, uh, but at live shows, it's hard to do really horrific murders. Yeah. Yeah. Just like, look up, I mean, there is an interesting element to like grieving with 2000 people

at a time. Yeah. Not when they're mad at you. Yeah. Okay. It's just hard. But so I can just tell you this. Okay.

And then people can listen. I'm just going to tell you about it. No one else is listening. Steven, please put those headphones on more. So this was, this happened in Mount Vernon, Ohio last November, holy, like as in four months ago, four months ago, December, December, January, oh shit, four fucking months ago. Happy 2018, by the way. Did we even say that?

It's Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day and then upcoming president's day. So on November 10th of last year, uh, when Tina Herman didn't show up for work at Dairy Queen, her boss goes over to her house to check and see what's going on. And when he gets there, he finds it littered with beer cans and covered in blood. It was actually described as looking like a horror movie inside the house. So of course, he immediately calls the police, um, Tina's not in the house. Her 13 year old daughter's not in the house.

Her 11 year old son's not in the house. And her friend whose car is in the driveway is not in the house. So immediately the police start a massive manhunt. There's people walking around on foot. It's in the air. Like the whole, the whole area goes crazy. The next night, Tina Herman's pickup truck is found near the Kenyon College campus. They actually, when they found the pickup truck, they did a lockdown on the school.

Wow. Because they thought maybe the guy was nearby. Oh shit. The police interview people that are walking around the area. They don't find anything suspicious. Back at Tina Herman's house, the police are processing the scene, find Walmart bags with a receipt, a Walmart bag with a receipt inside. And the receipt shows purchasing, um, of garbage bags and a large heavy duty tarp.

Never good. Not, all the police are like, you know what? I remember this chapter in school, bad fucking news. So they go to that Walmart that's on the receipt. They check their surveillance video, the time their receipt, and on it, it clearly shows a very, um, a young, not very young, but a young brown haired man probably in his early thirties buying these items at the store. And on the video, they can also see when he leaves, they see him drive by in his Yaris.

Yaris? I was not expecting that. That's right. There are a lot of people drive Yaris's proudly and this guy was one of them. So he, it's all like right there on the tape. So the cops go to the DMV, they search the records, they cross check, whatever. Yaris's. They, they go to all the Yaris owners, they arrest all of them for bad taste.

I'm joking. Oh my God. On slot of Yaris. Everyone. I know it's a good car. How dare you. I bought this with my own money. Although I have to tell you, my friend Tisha and I, we bought, I bought my Honda Fit at

the same time she bought her Yaris and she was trying to decide between the two. And I was always like, you got to go with this Honda Fit. She was like, nope, I think I'm going to go with the Yaris. And I was just like, I felt so like it was like smug. UCLA versus USC. I was just like, goodbye. Yeah. You're not, we're not on the same team anymore.

Wow. I haven't spoken to her since. That's insane. Just kidding. Holy shit. That's how deep this Yaris shit goes with me. So, they find out through the DMV records and his driver's license, this man is Matthew Hoffman.

He's a 30 year old unemployed tree trimmer. Then once they see the pictures, one of the officers goes, I fucking talk to that guy up at the college when we found the truck. No. Yes. Like one of the people he questioned. Yep. He was right nearby.

So they're like, call everybody we're doing this. Gather the troop. Right. You know, circle the wagons. Circle the troops. This is what most cops say when they think they have a person. Gather the wagon. Circle the troops.

Gather our friends and let us go out together and fight crime. Yes. So, they fucking send the SWAT team to this guy's house and so this is, this basically takes four days. So four days after the family's found missing, the cops kick his, I don't know how it happened. Kick it. The cops kick down the fucking door. Joe Hoffman is sleeping on the couch inside in the living room and are you ready?

No. Your face looks unhappy. Well, it's just, it's not horrifying, but it's this. They find the entire living room is filled with leaves. What? Huge pile of leaves. Leaves. Leaves.

Um, piled so high that the police feared bodies might be buried underneath them. What the fuck? There's so many fucking leaves. Mount Vernon police detective Craig Feeney told the Columbus dispatch, so much runs through your mind. What if somebody's hiding under that pile? Or in this case, I thought, what if that's where he's hiding the bodies? What the fuck?

Leaves. Leaves. They walk down the hall to the bathroom. No, don't do it. You want to pull up these pictures? I brought pictures for you. No. Uh-huh.

This is how I found the story and it stopped me so cold. I was just like, what in the fuck are we doing? Oh my God. Oh my God. So this is the bathroom. No, no. I'm showing you the picture. What?

The walls of the bathroom are lined with plastic shopping bags filled with leaves and it looks insulated. Like we'll post this for you guys. It looks like insulation, like before you put on the drywall, you put bags of leaves, Kmart and thank you, thank you, thank you and of like perfectly filled bags of leaves. Perfectly spaced, perfectly hung. Each one right up the same width, same depth of, you know, it's not like sloppy. Bags of leaves hung on the wall.

What? The hiles of leaves on the ground. How have I never heard of this? Because it just happened, I think. Oh, and so that's, you saw it. Yeah. It's just, it's not even like, it's just leaves, legitimate. It's not dirt and it's not gravel, it's just leaves.

And isn't that something that's absolutely from like a David Fincher movie? Yeah, because it's one of those things where it's like, it doesn't mean anything, but it's so creepy. Yes. As it is. It's just like the moths and science of the land. Right. Where you're like, it's just moths.

It's not that big of a deal. People collect insects, I guess. I mean, you know, a bit, they touch, but when that moth lands next to her and just when she's like, yeah, here's your phone, please, I always have to get one of those in there. Okay, so finally, they go down into the basement, the basement, there's a door closed and it's barricaded with this big sewing machine cabinet thing. When they break down the door, they get inside. They find Tina Herman's 13 year old daughter alive.

She's bound and gagged and she's laying on a makeshift bed of leaves. Dude loves leaves. I mean, it's so, and it's this dank, creepy basement, obviously. She's been raped and she was wearing a plastic bag with holes cut for legs like a diaper. So creepy. Oh my God. He's arrested, taken into custody. How the fuck did I not see this?

I don't know. Twitter's algorithms are really disappointing me. I mean, I was so, like this was one of those ones where I was just like, I don't know. I think it's where, I think this is the kind of thing that people that are interested in crime, when you hear a story where you're like, sorry, what are we doing? What is this? But I was in Columbus with you and I was looking up Columbus murders to do for the show and I didn't fucking see this.

Right. Okay, go on. I mean, I feel like it was breaking news. Yeah. Most of the articles that I found to tell you about this were, they were waiting for, like basically once they found the girl, they still didn't know where the family was and they still didn't know. Yeah.

They were like, we still have three people missing. God, she's well and they, and just so you guys know, they, they did print her name when they first reported on the story, then when they realized she was a sexual assault victim, they stopped printing her name. So that's why I'm not saying her name. So they're questioning Matthew Hoffman. He's not saying anything. They said that this reporter that was writing this, these stories are from the Columbus

dispatch and also from the Denver post, but they say there's hours of footage of police trying to question him and him just not saying a word. And then finally, he tells the police that he wants to confess because he has a bad dream about being at a food processing plant. Oh no. So he tells police he opened up the, in the dream, he opened up a trash bag at the food processing plant and he saw it cut up body parts and he got a knot in his stomach and it all quote unquote came back to him.

And so finally he confesses to the murder of Tina Herman, her 11 year old son, Cody, and her friend Stephanie Sprang, whose car was in her driveway. He tells police that he waited in the woods across the street from Tina Herman's house the night before he was up in a tree, leaves unemployed tree trimmer. He's got a tree issue. He's up in a tree. He watches the house all night at nine in the morning. He sees Tina Herman leave the house.

So he thinks the house is empty and the garage door doesn't go down all the way. So he sees his, this is his chance to slip in. He goes into the house, he's in, he told police. Do we know how, or is this going to come up, like how he knew who they were? He just, it was just a random. Well he had already been arrested once before for burglarizing a house by slipping into an open garage door. So when he told police he actually had only gone in to burglarize the house, they believed

that it was basically an interrupted burglary because he had done it once before and only burgled the house. And there's other extenuating circumstances in his life that are different on this one. But basically Tina and her friend Stephanie came back to the house and interrupted him an hour after he broke in. And so he stabbed them both to death. Holy shit. Yes.

And then he's just dismembering their bodies and the kids come home from school. So he stabs the 11 year old boy to death in the doorway. The 13 year old daughter runs to her room, he grabs her, he ties her up with an electric fan cord and he puts her in his truck or in his, I can't remember, it's really weird because he did this thing where he had a Jeep, but then he also used Tina's truck. And that's why he's the one that left it at the college and he had gone on foot back somewhere and he was walking back to drive the truck back to her house. And that's when the cops started talking to him.

So he had the whole. And he could play it cool. They didn't even suspect him. Yeah. So something is fucking wrong with this dude. That's the old psychopath. They don't get nervous. They don't, they can look somebody in the eye and be like, yeah, I'm, I'm just here on

the bike path, chilling out. Yeah. So what had happened is he put these dismembered bodies and the little girl, they don't think that the girl saw the house, like maybe she was blindfolded or something because she didn't know anything about her mom or brother or dad or no, she didn't know. She just knew she was kidnapped baby. So he dropped her off at his house, put her in that basement, then left. He drove to the cacosing, I'm sure I'm saying it wrong, the cacosing wildlife area, which

was apparently he was a big outdoorsman and he like went there a lot and just camped out a lot and, you know, liked trees a lot. He, with a rope and pulley system, he pulled their body parts up and put them into a 60 foot hollow tree and hid them there. So holy shit, that like wouldn't even cross my mind. Yes. No, no, no, no. It's like, it's, it's beyond the perfect and most obscure hiding place.

The police were like, if we didn't make the deal, because he said, I'll tell you where the bodies are, if you don't give me the death penalty. The police were like, if we didn't do that, we would have never found these bodies. That blows my mind because I have this, you know, this in mind of like, what, like where are all the, like there are over the whole globe, there are bodies hidden in crazy forests and weird places and that wouldn't even fucking cross my mind. Now I have a whole other fucking thing to worry about. Well, and also because it's up so high that like, it's all this premeditation.

It's this plan. It's this like, everything about it. And then it also makes me go like, oh, who put Bella in the witch home? It's that weird, like the tree thing. It's real. Oh God. Now I have a whole another thing to worry about. Yeah.

It's so crazy. We can lump it right into just the forest issue that we always do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just not going to be buried this time. Right. Right.

And then once he went and picked that truck up, he was going to take it back to her house, burn the house down and like, get rid of all the evidence that was his plan. And then he told police that he also planned to, he said he was really nice to the daughter and that he planned to just keep her for a little while. He was going to, he, they played video games. They read books. They watched movies. He, he gave her hamburgers, blah, blah, blah.

And then he was just going to let her eventually let her run away. She'd be home by Christmas. That's what he told the fucking police. Like he had this whole fantasy that he was actually a good guy. He was a good guy. And he was very, very good to her. And he didn't want to do these things, but he was putting this at, what a fucking dick. Well, and also just mental illness gone beyond rapid.

Like just untreated, terrible, you know, whatever. So essentially, so they have, of course, these newspapers have interviewed the neighbors and they, this guy has so many neighbors. It's amazing. And they all have something to say. One of the neighbors said, there's only two trees near this guy's house. So she's neighbor, Jeanette Colomber said, he can't have possibly got that many leaves from that tree.

So he asked all leaves in here from somewhere. Do we know what the deal with the leaves are? I mean, he's just obsessed with them. Yes. It's like there was a, they did interview, and I think this is from the, the Columbus Dispatch. They interviewed a guy named Dr. NG Barrel, who is the director of the New York Center for Neuropsychology and Forensic Behavioral Science.

That guy says you would have to talk to this guy to understand what the connection is. But it's clear that this guy is mentally ill beyond what we associate with normal serial killers or murderers or psychopaths, because normally serial killers are not technically mentally ill. They have these character disturbances, but they know what's happening and they know that they're doing wrong. They like it. And that's part of the reason they're doing, they get pleasure and gratification from how

the terrible things they're doing and the torture that they're inflicting on other people. He thinks that this guy had some other thing happening and there was like obviously lots of other issues at hand. Oh my God. It's so fucking nuts. So the neighbor, let's see, so Jeanette said, I don't know where those leaves could have come from because there's no trees around here. Then a neighbor named Henderson Butcher says that Matthew Hoffman was friendly, but he used

to play around the trees a lot, around there a lot. He'd throw ropes up in the trees and had like a hammock up in there. So in some part of the neighborhood that did have trees, he would go in and be in them all the time. Okay, fine. Donna, fine then. Fine. That's fine.

Just don't. Just go do that. Yeah. A lot of people like trees. Donna Davis, DAWNA, my favorite spelling of Donna ever. It's all the Good 70s names combined into one name. She was another next-door neighbor and she said that she told her children to stay indoors when Matthew Hoffman was outside.

Oh, that's chill. Yeah. But he had moved in alone a year before and that his girlfriend had lived with him temporarily and then she moved out a month before the murders. And she said, this is what she said to the Denver Post, he'd sit up and listen to us up in a tree. He had a hammock and he would just sit there and listen to us. Oh my God.

He was just different. He was very different. Oh my God. She said that he walked to Foundation Park almost every day and was a, quote, nature person who collected leaves. So I guess Foundation Park was the park nearby that the other neighbor's talking about. And he would just go up in there. Also his house was in foreclosure and it had been, it started in January.

So he was, I think, at the end of like a serious, probably psychotic break. He makes that huge confession and, oh, he also killed the fucking family dog. No. Yeah. So once he makes the confession and he said, he asked the investigator, if I write down the location of the bodies, he hadn't given away the location yet and he said, if I write these down, can I then make a fake attempt to escape and you shoot me? And the cop was like, no, we're not going to do it that way.

And so then he wouldn't talk. He wouldn't tell them where the bodies were for two full days. And then he finally, he finally told them that whole story that I just told you. And the police, of course, when they saw it, were just like, yeah, we had to make this deal with them because we would have never known. So in the end, Matthew Hoffman pled guilty to 10 felonies, including aggravated murder and rape. And he was given a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

And the Knox County prosecutor, John Thatcher said that this Knox County has never seen a case like this before. It has to rank in Ohio history as one of the worst homicide cases ever. My favorite murder history, too. I mean, so like, I thought those leaves would like have something about like he buried the bodies and had to put the leaves somewhere. Well, it's not. Oh yeah.

Like directly. It's just he is. But that psychiatrist that they talked to said, you know, obviously this is all it's his. He has some kind of a delusion and some kind of an obsession. So in his mind, somewhere in his mind, and he would be the only person I'd be able to explain what that connection is. But right now, there's nobody that can say, oh, he did trees because of murder because of trees.

But like just coming upon a picture of a living room filled with fucking leaves. The bathroom is more troubling to me of just perfect bags lined up and like whatever stapled to the wall. It's almost like inverted hoarders. Like the same feeling I had the first time I saw all hoarders, but it's organized and only leaves and on the wall. And then you got to be like, what happened? What's going on?

Tell me everything now. Yes. Meanwhile, it's a grown man that climbs and plays in trees. So like bought it, but was able to buy a house and have a girlfriend and like how I don't it's so crazy and plan the disposal of bodies in a really smart way. Yes. Well, yes, because once he was in it, it was like that is the truth. Like that, um, that psychologist that gave that or psychiatrist or whatever he was that

gave the difference. It's like, yes, he was mentally a little clearly, but he also knew what he did was wrong, covered it up. Like, yes, he, he had, there was something going on, but you can't, he, it's the insanity defense I don't think could apply because he, he covered up and hid those bodies and I hit a girl and right to fucking girl. Like, you know, this wasn't some kind of like, I went all over the place. This isn't like Richard Chase that Sacramento vampire where you're like, what the fuck are

you doing? Dude. Yeah. God damn it. Anyway, that's the Matthew Hoffman case of Mount Vernon. Jesus. I don't know how I would have reacted on stage to this. Well, I mean, it would have felt like this.

Like we're just like, oh, man. Well, mine isn't much happier. Okay. Yeah. But it's, but it's interesting. Okay. Good. All right.

That's all we ask. That's all we need from you people. You're not. What? What? This is our job. Okay. All right.

Well, this is one I hadn't ever heard of. Okay. Even though it's basically the, like the French Jean Benet. Oh. Have you heard of this one? Madeleine McCann? No. It's the French Madeleine McCann.

Oh, okay. A natural French citizen. That's English. Right. Right. It's the Madeleine McCann Jean Benet. Oh, Francais. In French.

Got it. French bread. French dressing. Or with a side of French. This is Le Affaire de Petite Gregory, or the case of Little Gregory. Oh. Yeah. Okay.

Already awful. It's one of France's most high profile murders. So in 1981, in the small village of, uh, near Veylon in Eastern France, 26 year old Jean-Marie Willman is promoted to foreman at the Carparts factory where he works. So after his promotion, he, Jean-Marie and his wife, Christine, who's 24, like so young, right? Yeah. They're threatening anonymous phone calls from a person who knows a shit ton about their

family, um, and he calls himself, uh, the Raven. Oh no. Yeah. What? Yeah. So this person is calling, threatening. He has a, this person has a horse voice or it's a woman disguising her voice. I listened to one of the recordings from way back when and it sounds like a fucking woman

to me for sure. Was it super creepy? Yeah. It's not even creepy. They're having a conversation. Oh no. All right. So, um, the person is angry with Jean-Marie.

Once Jean-Marie had been promoted, they think he's putting on airs. He's got a lot of money. He's not joining the union. And so a lot of the articles about this and like every video is in French. Sure. So it's really hard to get information. I had to do a lot of Google translation bullshit. So some of it might be off.

Like the Raven thing, it's called the crow and a lot of different like translations. Which are totally different, horrible death. Yeah. Yeah. So always ask me for French stuff because I took, I took all the way up through French too. So the long belongs is the launch. It's the launches.

Right. There's some fucked up things here. Okay. Okay. Um, so they're pissed off at Jean-Marie. The villains, they alert the police and they begin recording the phone calls. And so at that point, the phone calls stop and instead threatening letters start coming. Do you think the Raven knew the phone calls were being recorded?

Yeah. Okay. Because it sounds like someone who was close to the family. Oh, okay. So maybe even knew. Like a mole. Yeah. That's totally a mole.

So these threatening letters start coming in. There are these rambling letters written in quote longhand and low class slang. Oh. So the letters are signed the Raven and say such things as I'll have all your hides and I hate you so much the day you die, I will spit on your grave. And it's sent to the whole family, like, you know, the grandparents and all these things. God. So a window of the house is broken in the Villiman house while Christine is at home

alone with the couple's young son named Gregory. Oh no. And also all the tires are slashed on the family cars. So someone is threatening them and it's a small town and the person knows a lot about them. The harassment goes on for three years without the Villamins or the police having any idea who was behind it. And then on October 16th, 1984 at around 5.30 p.m. Christine who's inside doing some ironing

goes out to bring Gregory in. He's four years old at this point and she had left him outside to play in the sand beside their house and he's not there. Oh God. No, it gets worse. She gets in her car to drive around the small town looking for him thinking maybe he just wandered off. But at that point Jean-Marie's brother receives a call at work from an unidentified person

telling him I have taken the boy. So a search begins but by 9.30 that same night Gregory is found in the Vellan River four miles from his home. Oh God. Yeah. So this is like, there's so many similarities to Jean-Marie's case in this. So little Gregory, he's this sweet boy, there's this photo of him in the same way that the photo of Jean-Marie looking all smiley and beautiful is known to us for ages.

This photo of Gregory is the same thing. He's sweet, smiling boy with messy curly hair, little four-year-old. He's found bound hand and foot. He's fully dressed. There's a photo taken at the scene by a journalist. It's a roped firefighter holding in his arms and like taking Gregory out of the river. He's fully dressed in his blue anorak, dark green velvet trousers and his like beanie still on his head.

And it's published in the press the next day and it traumatizes all of France and everyone becomes obsessed with this case. So he's dead, did I say that? Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. You figure. Okay.

The next day, Christine and Jean-Marie receive an anonymous letter that says to Jean-Marie addressed to him, I hope you die of grief, boss. Your money can't give you back your son. Here is my revenge, you stupid bastard. Holy fuck. In the same way that the Jean-Benet fucking letter was, it's so similar, right? Oh. Remember?

But that was a ransom, a fake ransom letter. Right. But it was like your money can't help you. Yeah. Oh, that's true. That's right. Like I'm jealous of your riches. Yeah.

Okay. So the investigation doesn't fucking start well. The lead investigator put on the case, he's the only investigating magistrate in the district. He's 32-year-old Jean-Michel Lambert. It's his very first investigation. No. 32. Can you, I wouldn't trust a 32-year-old to watch my fucking purse for five minutes.

I would. Sorry, Stephen. How old are you? 30. Fuck. Wait a second. My wallet's gone. Stupid.

No, that's too young. Too young. You need experienced people. Yeah. It's a big fucking difference. You need people when it's an important thing. People have to know what they're doing, they have to have experience. They can't be in a state of I need to prove myself.

That's exactly right. That's, it's less like I don't know what I'm doing than I don't know what I'm doing and I need to act like I know what I'm doing. Yes. So I'm going to fucking overdo it. I can't listen. That's exactly what happens here. You can't help me.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's the same thing with Jean Benet when they sent the young and experienced cops on Christmas fucking day. All right. So 32-year-old Jean-Michel Lambert. First investigation. First of all, he fails to secure the crime scene and he also doesn't order a full autopsy. So the autopsy has been criticized forever because it was incomplete and sloppy.

So they don't know, there's no bruises on the body, pathologists attribute the death to drowning and contact with the cold water. They're not totally sure. They disagree whether he had been drowned in the river or in tap water because the lung, the water in his lungs contain none of the microscopic organisms that one would find in the river. Ew, that's awful. I know, but they didn't do it.

But Lambert was like kind of trying to spare the parents by not making them over autopsy poor Gregory. It doesn't work that way. No, unfortunately. I mean, ultimately. Yeah. So from the beginning, suspicion falls on the family of Jean-Marie, the father. His parents, brothers, aunts, uncles and cousins all live nearby.

And when Jean-Marie is promoted to foreman way back when some of the family members had been unhappy about it. So they think that the person who was writing the letters, the raven and the killer might be part of this family. Out of like jealousy, basically. Yeah. And he has a big family that all lives in this area. So police force hundreds of, 140 members of the Villaman family to take handwriting

and dictation tests to compare them to the letters and phone calls that have been going on. Wow. 140. And they copied pages of the writing, including the text of the last message from the raven. And after a month after Gregory's murder, the 15 year old sister-in-law of Jean-Marie's cousin. So Jean-Marie, the dad of Gregory, his cousin, whose name is Bernard La Roche, his cousin's

sister-in-law. This is confusing. Yeah. His 15 years old. So she's just like nerdy, redheaded, 15 year old, totally early 80s, like not much. Maybe a Duran Duran shirt on, but like no makeup. She's not like Tom Kroc or whatever. Jean jacket.

I see her. I can see her. Yeah. A comb holding one side of her hair. Yeah, but like really nerdy comb. Yeah. A math comb. You know.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a ruler. Uh-huh. So she's 15 years old. 15 years old. She comes forward and tells investigators that the cousin, her brother-in-law, who's married to her sister, 29 year old Bernard La Roche, is the murderer. Oh fuck.

And the day Gregory was killed, she had been picked up by Bernard from high school and taken to the Villaman's house. They picked up Gregory and headed for the river. And then they parked and Bernard went off with him and came back alone. What? So she's fucking pinning it on her sister's husband. Okay. Who's this like smiley, big, boisterous looking, mustachioed, messy 80s hair dude.

Okay. He's played by like a young, what's it, Roseanne's husband on Roseanne. John Goodman. Like a young John Goodman. I was thinking Vincent D'Onofrio. No. Okay. More jovial.

Okay. Looking. Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A good time guy. Totally. Got it. But like, why are you smiling inappropriately in this photograph?

Oh. You know what I mean? Yes. Like there's a photograph of the cousin, his wife, and his wife's, and the young Muriel. Her name is Muriel Boyle. There's a photograph of the three of them and I just want to know if it's taken before or after the murder because it's inappropriately smiling and creepy. Okay.

You know what I mean? Yes. Like, ugh. There's something about it. French people are screaming there what they think about really happened and I want to know. They're like, actually we're supposed to smile like this way. Right.

So why are you smiling? Okay. I knew I used to work with an over-smiler who actually, I'm positive was a sociopath. Because they don't know when it's appropriate so they just do it the whole time. Right. And they, it's this thing of, it's almost like that weird hypnosis kind of thing where it's just like, yes, everything's fine. Right.

Like they're trying to control you with their mouth. Right. With their teeth. They learn that people, they learn that people mimic things so they just fucking do it. Yeah. Like here, this is friends, friends, friends. See? Yeah.

See? Which is like someone always trying to show you that they're happy and smiling. Right. They're trying to bring something. And you know inherently, but you're like, but they seem so happy. Yeah. I have to mimic what they're doing because they're setting this, they're setting the tone of the room.

Right. Which is, we love everything. And then when you get older and stop giving a shit about anything, you realize like you don't have to do that. Like when I stop, when I stop being that way, which I am inherently like a person who will mimic a person's happiness because I'm just uncomfortable that way. Yeah. And I don't do it.

Then I'm like, oh, this isn't right. Yeah. I don't want to be here. Yeah. Because it's like, why is this person trying to control me this hard? Yeah. Like what is, what do they not want me to be paying attention to? Right.

I mean. This is that photograph. Oh yeah. In a nutshell. From the 80s. Okay. With a mustache. Steven.

Um. Where are you French, Steven? Uh-huh. We. Uh-huh. We. Okay. Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.

So she says that. Ba-ba-ba. And then. So Bernard, this guy Bernard, the cousin and Jean-Marie had played together as children. So they're from the same clan. It's like a clan more than a family. It's almost like Fargo that second season when they're like the big crime fight at crime.

Me family. The crimey family. They didn't fight crime. They. But they had grown apart over the years and Bernard was an unkempt often profane man with a mustache and he and his wife, they also had a four year old child, but he was had a learning disability. So they both had four year old children, but Gregory was this beautiful, smiling, happy

baby that everyone loved and Jean-Marie had been promoted. He was getting all this money. His dad was in charge of the plant. Well, meanwhile Bernard seemed to have a shitty fucking life. So they didn't socialize anymore with Jean-Marie and Christine, but so he wouldn't have known about the family a lot enough to write these Raven letters, but one of Jean-Marie's brothers was good friends with LaRosha. He would have known.

Okay. Um, he didn't like the, the, the, uh, Vilman's blah, blah, blah. Okay. So at, so, so this chick, Marial's like my fucking brother-in-law did it. I'm 15. What's up? Yeah. At the spot where Marial said, uh, they had stopped the investigators find a, it's a

vile of insulin and a syringe they find on the ground. Yeah. Um, they make the investigators think that Gregory had been put into a hypoglycemic coma before being thrown into the river. Okay. So that made him unable to, so he unable to. Do anything. Right.

And he was also tied up. Yeah. So, but, but there had been no toxicology report because the autopsy wasn't done correctly. So they didn't know they didn't look for needle marks, anything like that. And so Marial says she wasn't aware of what her uncle was doing. She had just been sitting in the car, but it turns out that Marial's mother, uh, Janine was a diabetic and that Marial was her insulin injector. Oh.

So she might have been more involved than she said she was. Because she would know how to do it. Right. Or she would even have provided them with it. But then why would she fucking go to the cops and, and say he did it? Like if she's involved? That's a great question. So why would she do it?

No, no, it's true. Why would she do it anyway? There's just a lot of questions here. Well, yeah, I mean, like that's the first. And she's 15 and feels, and isn't an adult and knows there's right and wrong. And your fucking bullshit fights with families don't matter. Yeah. Because that's such a huge, it's such a stretch from I hate my rich cousin who gets everything

to I'm going to kill a child. Like not even kill your cousin, fine. Kill an adult man, whatever, but to, to take away the child is such a, I want you to suffer specifically. Yes. The most crazy. It's so awful. Right.

So they test Bernard's handwriting and experts say he had written two of the poison pen letters, including the one sent the day after the murder. So they say it's, it's Bernard. It matches him. It matches him. And this is in the time where they knew nothing about handwriting analysis. Like that's back in the zodiac times where they're like, it's not him. It's almost like it's in a time when they thought they knew everything about handwriting

analysis and now we know that they know nothing about handwriting. You know what I mean? It's like the opposite where they're like, you can tell everything from that. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. Right. You're making all kinds of insane assumptions. Exactly. And you sound really fucking smart.

Yeah. Right. So Bernard is arrested and then Miriel gets the, the 15 year old gets sent back to her family's house and a couple days later retracts her entire statement. What? Everyone is like Miriel like was bullied by her family into retracting that statement. Oh. Everyone thinks that.

Okay. How dare you turn on the family? How dare you? On the brother-in-law, this, you know, there's like insane like family, like going back probably hundreds of years within this small community with this family or these families. And against the prosecutor's advice, Lambert, the police investigating 31 year old dude. So the police investigator, even though the public prosecutors like don't fucking do this, they let Bernard go because she retracts her statement and they're like, well, then let's

let her go. But then that's it. Wow. Because then there's no evidence that he's involved. Well, they were saying there was other evidence, right? Yeah. So why wasn't he held? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. On the day of his release, Jean-Marie, Gregory's dad, in front of a bunch of journalists vows that he would kill his cousin Bernard. Of course he did. Right. He vows to kill Bernard. Two journalists.

Two journalists. Oh. The LaRouche family tries to get police protection, but the police are like, nope. Oh, no. Nope. You can't have it. Uh-uh-uh. And so true to his fucking word, on March 29th, Jean-Marie waits outside his cousin's house

and when he gets home, pulls up, he fucking approaches his cousin Bernard and shoots him with a hunting rifle. Oh, fuck. Bernard dies. Oh my God. The cousin dies. Goodbye, John Goodman. He's out of the picture.

John Goodman. Jean Goodman? Jean-Gouement. Instead. Like if fucking John Ramsey had shot, you know, his boss, it's just insane. Yes. These steps people are taking. Also, it seems like reverse police work, where it's like, let them go.

Don't investigate. Right. Like, don't get details going. Yeah. Like, everything is, it feels like... Arrest someone now quickly and then let them go and then try this and it's just like Panic. It's amping everyone up.

Yes. Especially small town, like, anywhere in the world. Like Boulder. Yes. Exactly. Small town life where everyone knows everyone's business and there's gossip and there's pressure. Right.

Exactly. So Bernard dies. Jean-Marie immediately turns himself in and he sentenced to five years for the killing. Whoa. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lambert, the police dude, is like, I know who fucking did this. I'll tell you who fucking did this. And he starts to build a case against Gregory's mother, Christine.

Whoa. For the murder of her son. At this point, she's six months pregnant, too. Let's add that in for fun, because this is a fucking lifetime movie. Yes. He's saying that the mother killed her son. Uh-huh. Okay.

This 33-year-old fucking investigator. He's been 31, 32, and 33. They're all the same. Everyone knows. Well, time is passing, actually. Right. Okay. So, three locals who worked with Christine swore that they saw her at the post office

on the day before Gregory's death when the revenge letter had been posted, which is like, I don't think it was true, but also who gives a fucking shit, you know? Like they're saying they saw her mail the revenge letter? They're saying they saw her the day the revenge letter was mailed at the post office. Okay. Okay. Right. Uh, graphologists argued that there was an 80% chance that she was the letter's author.

So again, with the fucking Jean Benet ransom letter, and we're all like, right. But then they'd already said that he... Right. That he signed that they said, yeah. Yeah. They already said that the cousin was responsible. Right. They're just changing it per the stoke, I guess.

Uh-huh. The string that was identical to what was used to tie up Gregory is found in the cellar of the, uh, Vilman's home. Oh, no. But it's like, does that, I don't know, who knows what that is. The bag I could have taken it there. Right. That's the, that's the one string they sell in this village.

Sure. Also in the Ravens letters, he accuses Christine of killing Gregory. So they start to believe what the fucking Raven is saying, uh, because Gregory had been conceived. So they're saying Christine had been knocked up with Gregory in an extramarital affair, and that's why she killed her son, which ultimately wasn't true, proven to be untrue. That's fucked up. Yeah.

Because then they're just floating salacious shit that people love to repeat. And keep in mind this whole time, if you were alive during the Jean Benet Ramsey investigation, it is the, the fucking media is going out of their fucking minds. Yeah. It's like a village glossy bullshit in every grocery store. I don't know what they have in France that's equivalent to that. It's going on. Everyone is eating it up and all these crazy theories are being, you know, just thrown

it out. Yeah. I think it's a, they have one big magazine called Perrie Match, and, uh, it's just pictures of people smoking and then terrible stories like that. That's what it is. Yeah. It's there. Yeah.

Christine is, Christine ends up getting charged with the murder of her son. No fucking way. Why? Oh, because it's this guy's idea. Yeah. He's the, the Lambert. I was going to say the king of police. He's the French king of police.

He is the king. So the king of police, Lambert, charges Christine with this murder of her son. Fuck. Based on this evidence, places her in a pre-trial detention in July of 1985. In protest, she goes on a fucking 11 day hunger strike and is released. And it isn't until. Wait. Sorry.

That works? I guess. She's pregnant. Oh, no. She's released and it isn't until, but they also, I think, didn't have anything to hold her on. Right. Cut to 1993.

It isn't until 1993 when the case is taken over by another investigating judge, finally someone who's hopefully over 50, Marie Simon. For real? That she's cleared. So between 1985 and 1993, people are speculating whether or not it's her constantly. And he and Marie Simon is like, does some fucking, you know, judgey magic thing sprinkle something on her that's like, she's never allowed to be fucking tried for this again. Like makes it so she can never be brought up as a suspect again.

Yeah. Just pretty amazing. That's like, isn't that double jeopardy? No, because she had never been brought to trial. Oh, but he was just saying like, this is now put to rest. Yeah. You can't bring her up as a fucking suspect again. Yeah.

Seems pretty decent. Yeah. The mother of the dead child. Right. Yeah. And like photos of her man, like at this time are heartbreaking. There's a lot of photos going on and it's so 80s and so sad. Okay.

And then in 2000, the year 2000, you've heard of it, the case is reopened when Christine's family demands that DNA tests are carried out on the fucking stamps that are in the fucking letters. Yes. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, there's, and there's hundreds of these letters, three separate traces of DNA are found, but none of them are identified.

What? For some reason, none of these fucking, okay. Not much happens until this past June of 2017. Whoa. Yeah. Okay. So we're both fucking, we're, we're all about 2017. And we're currenting this fucking episode.

I love it. So in June, 32 years after Gregory's murder, 32 years, no one has been taken into custody for their murder since 1985 when his mother was fucking taken into custody. So no one has even been a suspect. Three people in connection with the case are taken into custody. Whoa. Okay. Ready for this?

Yes. So, okay. The aunt and uncle of Jean-Marie, Gregory's father, and Bernard, the dead cousin, Jacqueline Jacob, she's 72 and her husband, Marcel, is 71 are arrested. No fucking way. Fucking old people. And they were like in their 40s at the time? 30, yeah.

80s, 90s. 30s. 30s. Yeah. 40s. Okay. So, okay. It's so fucking confusing.

So Marcel Jacob, the husband, the dude, is one of the younger brothers of, okay, it's basically Jean-Marie's dad married Marcel's sister. Okay. It's Gregory's great aunt and uncle. Got it. Okay. They're charged with kidnapping and confinement, but not the murder, saying they were responsible for the murder of Gregory since he would not have died unless he had first been kidnapped.

So they think fucking this chick, Jacqueline, who's now 72, was the fucking mastermind of this whole entire thing and made Bernard, made, was the letter writer and the woman, it sounds like a woman. She's the raven. Yeah. She's the raven, but they're all involved and all hate this family. And the day of Bernard actually did the murder, but she was like the distraction and the mastermind. Whoa.

This is like the second season of Fargo. Yeah. I mean, it's totally like Fargo. It really is. Because also it's just that like, what for? What are you doing? Like what is this plan? Totally.

And why the kid? Yeah. It's such a... Sick. It's like to hurt as much as possible. Also questioned are Albert and Monique Vilman, the parental grandparents of Gregory, 86 and 85 years old. So Gregory's fucking grandparents on his father's side, on John Michelle's side, are

questioned as well. Okay. Like everyone hated John Marie and we're in on this. Even his own parents? They're, I mean, they're questioned. Wow. So the charges against the great aunt and uncle follow a modern handwriting and... A modern, thank God, handwriting and linguistic analysis of some 2,000 letters of the Raven

letters and voice recordings that lead police to conclude that the authors are a man and a woman. Okay. More than a hundred witnesses are also interviewed. Some 12,000 pieces of evidence run through an advanced artificial intelligence program called Anacrime, which sounds fucking so cool, that locates potential suspects at given moments and uncovers inconsistencies and statements and alibis. How?

I think it's basically like this person says, I was there and this person said, you were like, it's, and the pings are from here and put some all together and it's like, whatever they're saying isn't true. There's no way they could have been there. Because it's basically based on like how we're digitally and kind of in some way recorded at all times. I don't even think that at that point. I think it's just based on statements.

Who said you were here? Who said you were there? You said you were here. Oh, that makes sense because they're, they're talking to so many people. Right. They're all together and they're like, this person wasn't where they said they were based on everyone's testimony. And the scariest part, the scariest part about Anacrime is that there are also those robots

that can open doors. No. Did you see that video today? Yes. That bothered me so much. It bothered me all day long. I didn't, I didn't watch more than him walking because it looked like a spider. It looks like a spider.

And then there was a part where it turns before it opens the door with a creepy, long vacuum cleaner tube. And it does this like click, click where it moves really fast to one side and it's so unnatural. Like it looks very animal like and then it goes click, click and you're like, oh, what do we, I don't even know what this is. It's like we want the end days to come. Yeah.

We're forcing it quick. Yeah. It's like we're begging it and creating the end days. Yeah. It's like some, some really smart guy that loves robots and computers also watched the Terminator too many times and he's like, we got to make this happen guys. But he never saw the beginning of the Terminator, like the first scene in the boardroom. Right.

He's like, this all looks great. And he didn't watch the romantic parts because I argue that the Terminator, the first one is one of the most romantic movies of all time. It's pretty beautiful. Yeah. God. And he goes to see his wife and sees her gardening. Is that the right movie?

I think yes. When he goes and he walks by before he knows like he's gone. He sees something and he's like that. Yeah. Also just, you got to love a guy that keeps a picture with him of the girl that he loves. Can I just tell you that term? I don't know a year it came out in, but it was way too early for me to watch it. And that scene in the boardroom in the beginning with the Terminator just kills everyone.

It was so traumatic for me. I bet. Yeah. No, that's, it's terrifying. It's just horrifying. I'm not buying. Amazing movie. It's so good though.

Can I tell you a quick, can I just do a quick sidebar of Valentine's Day? Always Valentine's Day. That just reminded me, the picture thing just reminded me. We have family friends named the Mulkeens. One of my dad's best friends is Kevin Gary and his sister, Marilyn Mulkeen is the woman. Remember that high school picture I showed you where I'm leaning against a ladder and I have almost a unibrow? Always.

Where you look like one of Kelly Bundy's best friends. You look like Kelly Bundy's like why Kelly Bundy got into trouble. That's right. I'm her smoking friend. So Marilyn Mulkeen was also because it's a small town. She also lived next door to my best friend, Christine Gooden. So she took Christine's senior portrait. She took mine.

She took everybody. She was like a really great photographer. And when we were, I can't remember where we were one time. She told me the story of how her and her husband Tom like got together. They were, it like childhood, he was friends with her with Kevin and with their, the boys in their, in the Gary family. They were all on vacation at the Russian River. I think the boys were like 14 or 13 and she was like 11 or 12 and I tell the story because

Marilyn died in November of cancer. And it makes me super sad because I hadn't seen her in a long time and she's truly one of the coolest. She was like one of those cool people of your parents' friends, we were like, oh, I want to talk to her for five hours. She's like, I'm going to tell you how it is because no one else is. Yes. Like she really was a legit rad lady.

And I'm very sad that she's passed away, but, but I still have this story and I love it so much. She is a 12 year old girl is watching these boys play in rough house and they all, they all grabbed Tom and who was like, you know, her older brother's cute friend and they're about to throw him into the Russian River. And so he pulls his wallet out of his back pocket and he tosses it to Marilyn. He goes, hold that for me as they throw him into the water and she catches it and it falls open in her hands and he has a picture of her in his wallet and they were married for

51 years. And that is my favorite. That's just a little sidebar Valentine's Day story. It gets my favorite love story of like when you are a 12 year old girl and they're like a boy, the idea that a boy would have your school picture in his wallet. Like you're the girl I like love. And then actually they actually end up married crush. The crush you have at 12 years old will never, it just never, it never burns that bright

never again because it's so innocent. But it's also so like idealistic like you, you know, it's like when you're 12, you don't pick bad boys you pick like, yeah, it's like, oh, he's nice or like he said something nice to me or something or he has freckles or some stupid, some dumb shit or he's just in the living room. Sometimes it's that, but I love anyway, not mean to me like my brother. That's my favorite Valentine's story and I just sidebarred you so hard, sorry, but that was beautiful.

Okay. Good. Good. I love it. Let's get back to this little boy. Okay. The Jacobs alibi. So the anacrimes like beep boop, I'm a machine and the old folks, the Jacobs alibi are quote

unconfirmed and unsubstantiated. So anacrime is like hell fucking no. Oh, you lying. We're fucking liars. We need anacrime. Anacrime. When you were in your 40s, you're fucking lying. Also arrested is fucking Muriel bowl.

Remember her? The fucking little redhead 15 year old. She's arrested at this point for complicity and murder and non-report of a crime. So they're like, you knew more than you were saying at the time and we're finally getting down to cases. However, so she goes on a hunger strike again for a few days, whatever, a month after they're arrested. Let's go back.

Remember Jean-Michel Lambert, the 30, whatever the fuck year old investigator who got taken off of the case. In July of 2017, just a few months ago, he's 65 years old. He's found dead in his apartment from suicide, a plastic bag over his head by 1987. He had been replaced by Maurice, as we said, and Maurice wrote at the time in his personal notebooks that Lambert had an intellectual disorder and he said, I am in the midst of a miscarriage of dust justice and all its horror about the accusations against Gregory's mother.

In a suicide note, Lambert proclaims his certainty about the innocence of Bernard, but he says he no longer has the strength to fight. So at this point, he still thinks that I don't know if the mother is responsible or whatever he thinks that Bernard is not guilty. He can't let go of his own first instinctual theory. We also learned several other letters have been sent since the restart of the investigation in June. Prosecutor has been threatened with death by the Raven.

What? The Raven's back. Letters are still being fucking written. Holy shit. By 2014, nearly 3,000 press articles, about 50, you know, papers, a TV movie and 15 books have been have been made about this case and it's still ongoing. And so we will update you when we find out that that is the case of Le Petit, the affair of the petite Gregory, the case of a little Gregory.

That is so heavy. How long we never heard of that? I've never heard any of that. I must have seen it late night in one of those listy things that you've never heard of and saw this photo of this sweet little boy with this. He's so French and cute and sweet, messy little hair and horrible. It's just awful. Well, and also just that it sounds like things are so bad, so entrenched that people have

just went insane. Like they were surrounded by their family and their competition and their small town bullshit. And it's like, you look at this story and you're like, how could this have happened? And then this happened. And it's so insane. And then you're like, well, the same thing happened with Jean Benet and I'm still fucking casting aspersions and being like, it was the brother.

Of course. Or it was this or it was that. And then the mom dies of cancer and I'm still like, maybe she had something to do with it or her letter. The letter looked like her handwriting and we're doing the exact same thing. Because you want some fucking clarity. Yeah. You just want someone to step forward and go, yes, all this other shit has happened.

It's the same with Jack the Ripper, but you just want someone to come and go, we finally have the one. We have who is the answer, the answer, clean, clear, you know, not involving 17 relatives or whatever. Just like who fucking whose plan was this and who did it? Well, I think and fucking French people, please let me know what everyone thinks. Because I have no way of knowing if everyone's like, no, what are you talking about? Everyone knew this person wasn't involved.

Right. That I'm saying is guilty. I have no way. You know, I can't give my opinion because I can't fucking understand any of the fucking videos I don't understand for what's going on. Half of it. Like literally there's like five articles in English and like two videos that you can put subtitles on.

Yeah. But faster. But at a speed of a hundred of asking there are like I don't understand any of it, but I want to know. I know. Well, that would be amazing. People actually have the like insider scoop of here's what we think. Yeah.

I think what everyone thinks is that the that this great aunt and uncle, the great aunt especially is like the devious fucking matriarch of the family who planned the whole thing, including alibis and Bernard did it. Fuck. But your own family, it's just dark. I mean, yeah. I think it's just like this anger, jealousy situation. Oh, you ending this was showing me this bowling socks again because everything is sad and

awful and that's the only light we have in our lives. What if I hold up a bowling sock every time things go so so dark into the human existence of that's all I want is a bowling sock. Steven, look at it. Steven, look at the bowling. Don't get Steven was really bent over. He's really bent over just now. Horrified.

And we just have to remember these bowling socks are stronger than regular feelings. Oh, God, damn. That's awful. I know. Okay. So we're going to end this differently right now, right? You and I were talking about how I just don't want to keep fucking the end the episode with thing that makes us happy and I'm just going to keep saying my cats or that my back doesn't

hurt and I'm fucking sick of myself, right? So like we're going to save this for like what are we going to either read a thing or I brought a thing. I have a thing. Okay, great. I tried to actually do something. Great. And I have a recommendation that made that makes me really happy.

So like after this episode, go watch this thing I'm going to tell you about because this is the worst. So great. So this is all new. We're giving it a shot. It's basically we take the beginning and we're putting it at the end because we decided we front loaded. We front load everything with all of everything we love and are excited about and then we drain

ourselves with horror. Yeah. And then it's like, what are you like? Well, my cats. And then we're staring at each other going, what? Why haven't you gone to the movies? You don't, you guys don't know that half the time at the end when we have to say a thing we're happy about, we have to make Steven cut out 10 minutes of us going, um, I don't

know. I don't know because it's just so depressing. It's depressing, but also I think that we are afraid to overly plan. We just want to have this be at the most natural conversation possible. I don't like the planning, planning of like any time I come with something in my pocket, it feels fake and clunky. So I always think like when we get there, something's going to pop into my head that makes, you know what I love.

And then, but then you're like, I love hash browns. You're like, I just talked about a dead kid. Yes. It feels terrible. It's not enough. It's never enough. No. This is why Elvis Meows at the end of every episode is because when we did an episode

once and we were like, how do we end this? I was like, oh, shit, let's do like, let's have Elvis Meows. Yes. Let's just start talking about something else entirely. Let's have something. Okay. So that's what we're going to do. Mine is, do you want me to go first?

Sure. It's not that great. Do it. It's just a good thing that I like. Great. Same with mine. And fluffy. Okay.

There's this Netflix show movie. It's a Netflix movie. It's a horror comedy about vampire roommates called What We Do in the Shadows. Yes, girl. Do you know it? Yeah. It's the greatest. It is so good.

I have had the hardest time not talking to you about it. It's Jemaine from fucking Flight of the Concourse. Jemaine Clement. And is it Taiki Watiki? I don't know how to pronounce that guy's name. I panic when I see it on the page. Oh, Steven knows. Taiko Wattiti.

Taiko Wattiti. Oh, look at Steven. You're hired again. At a lower rate. At a lower rate. It is so perfect. Amazing. It's basically just like, oh my, it's perfection.

Reece Darby has a hilarious, where werewolves not swearwolves. It's just so good. I want to cry. Reece Darby, I actually one day was sitting, staring at my TV, like I cannot look at one more true crime, anything, like I really hit a wall. And then I went randomly, my DVR recorded Flight of the Concourse, which is almost never rerun. All you need to do is binge watch Flight of the Concourse and you'll be happy.

I went straight to iTunes and bought both seasons, or four seasons, whatever it is. Because I was like, oh, wait a second, I could watch this over and over for the rest of my life and be happy. It's the best show ever. I'm the hip hop eponymous, my lyrics are bottomless, and then nothing, it's the best. There's nothing better. There's nothing. Maybe he did.

Maybe he did what? He maybe did. Maybe he did what? He maybe did. He maybe did. He maybe did. One of those posters behind Restarby in the New Zealand Office, Ambassador's Office, or wherever, they're the best.

It's perfection. It's New Zealand. What we do in the shadows is an extension of that. And I think they're going to bring it to this place we call America and remake it here. Yes. But it's going to be Jemaine and Tyche. Tyche. Tyche, who's so cute.

The other thing is, I want to live in there because they're all hot. They're so hot. They're all all the vampires except for the really old one. Please go watch it. It's the best show you've ever seen in your fucking life. Yeah. If you haven't, it's so goddamn delightful. OK, so that made me really fucking happy. I'm going to watch it over and over again.

I told you the time I got to meet the flight of the Concords, I opened for them when I very first started stand up again after I hadn't done it for five years. One of my very first sets was opening for the flight of the Concords in Denver. While they were, like, in their, like, shit. The, it was the height. I think the show was still on.

Yeah. I think it was, like, maybe their last season. And they were, like, touring a shit. I ate it in a way. Were you doing music? What? Were you doing music? No, no, no. I was trying to put a comedy set back together.

And one of the main problems was that the microphone was, the mic cord was twisted around the mic stand, probably 150 times. Like, there was no way I was getting the mic off the mic stand. So I had to stand there, like fucking Stephen Wright and deliver not set up punch jokes like conversational shit. It was awful. I got a terrible review in one of their, like,

local weekly papers where they said it should have been Kristen Schull because she's on the show and she's in Denver, like, local. Yeah, it was a horror show. But all that aside. Kristen Schull, I love you. That's horrible. Look, I did it because I wanted to be around those guys

and meet them. No, there's no reason why you shouldn't have done it. But except for that I didn't have an act. But they were so lovely and Jermaine Clement, like, in my opinion, we don't have to go on and on about this. And we certainly don't have to debate it. But Jermaine's hotter than, is that what you were going to say? I think Brent McKenzie is the hottest technically.

Yes. But then. But we like a big guy. Well, also, when Jermaine Clement walks towards you to say hello, thank you for opening the show for us, a wind kicks up indoors and his hair blew back. There was a thing that happened where I was standing there, like, what in the living fuck is coming toward me right now?

I was. He's a vampire. He's in the knees. Also, like, he's a monster. You've seen his David Bowie impressions. Yes. You'll just never. There's nobody ever.

Listen, Vince doesn't listen to this podcast. Look and listen. My husband does not listen to this podcast. So it's fine. So let her fly. And there was, we've been together watching it together. And I kept wanting to go, I kept almost saying, because the guy that they turned into,

I kept wanting to go, they're so hot. I couldn't do that. It's weird, too. It's weird as American girls, I think, to see hot guys that are acting like sweet and innocent. It's such a strange nod of my era, anyway, combination. And then they had, like, I'm just going to keep talking about it. They had special effects, it was this low-budget movie,

and then these insane special vampire effects. Yes. I'm going to watch it tonight again. They just did it perfectly. It was like a realistic docuseries, almost. But I know it's so perfect. It's called, I wrote down, The People Who Eat Darkness. That's not it.

That is actually a really good book about a Japanese serial killer. Go listen to that. But it's actually called What We Do In The Shadows. That's right. A different thing. Yes. But similar.

OK. Well, my thing is, I love it. Now that's my thing, too. That's great. I'm support. I see lotion in your hands. Well, because we were given. Oh, yeah.

When we went to, I believe this was in either Atlanta or Nashville. So this was a couple trips ago. So I'm sorry that I don't. As I always say, someone pointed out to me on Twitter that I'm always like, sorry, I don't remember your name. Sorry, I don't, whatever. It was Kim. But I'm trying to look on here because I bet you it'll tell me

Nashville, Tennessee. Great. We were given a little gift bag from some people, and I lost the fucking card. But it's from a company called Love Heels Thistle Farms. Yeah. And so this is a company that's in Nashville, Tennessee, where they make hand lotions and soaps and all this stuff.

I think it's there. There's like a lip balm. We got lip balm hand lotion. This amazing, like I can't stop using it, body butter. But everyone listen, because there's a thing. And you and I started crying when we read that. Like literally crying in the greener room when we saw this. All of the products from Love Heels Thistle Farms

are made by women survivors. So these are women who, these are women who get these jobs because they have been either they just get out of jail or they were, they are. Had to leave their homes because of domestic violence issues. So they're going to live at this place and they get this career. And they get a job and they get,

and they make these amazing, beautiful products. My hands are always dry. I have a ritual before every show. I put on hand lotion and if I don't do it, I get a little bit weirded out. Everyone's swell. And a mint in your mouth. A mint in my mouth.

A mint in the mouth and a lotion on your hand. Hand lotion, this is my new hand lotion. It's the best. Because it's not greasy and it's curing all of my super dry cuticles. It's amazing. I'm stealing it. So it's actually an amazing product

that like smells good and really, really works. And also when you buy it, you are supporting these people who are trying to get out of a bad situation. You don't just want to go, yeah. Like they're, yeah, they feel like they have a purpose. Yeah. God, that's beautiful.

And it's they're making, they're making a product that could be in fucking Sephora. I like, I like this so much better than the fact that Mimi who's sitting right here truly does make me happy. But I don't need to repeat that every fucking episode. Look, sometimes it's hard. Listen, that's hard.

I love that. Okay, let's do that from now on. That's a good one. Well, also we get so many, and you guys we talk when we meet you and you get them to us, we talk to you about it, but we are inundated with amazing, beautiful gifts.

Incredible. Thoughtful, hilarious, brilliant. Creative, artistic. It's so fun. And it's delicious. It's hard to, we're also traveling. So the most shoving stuff in our bag, like I was, I looked around my house

cause I had actually the card that were, that described in detail about Thistle Farms. Everything gets missed. I'm just a sloppy mess. So I'm like, I finally grabbed up this thing where I'm like, well, at least this isn't my purse. I have this information. We're so lucky.

People have been so kind to us and we're so fucking lucky. Yeah. Thank you guys. And so be kind to these people. We will post, I will find that thing and then we'll have Steven post the Thistle Farms because it truly, aside from anything else, it's a great product.

We should have a, okay. We'll talk about it later. Make some plans on the show. We should make some plans. I love that. This is so much better. Yeah. Okay, great.

Yeah, yeah. It just takes five minutes of thinking. That's all we need to do. That's so exhausting. We're gonna get there someday. We should make a podcast about it. We should hire a team of secretaries. No offense, Steven.

But thank you all for listening. Yes. You guys are fucking angels. Thanks for being here. In the outfield and in the infield and we appreciate it. You guys are like ghost baseball players in a cornfield. We built it. We look outside.

And you came. Georgia right as she said. We built it. She pushed her boobs together. We built it. I love grabbing my tits. Thank you guys. Stay sexy.

And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis. Wanna cookie? Woo!