My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 109 - Project Artichoke

Episode Date: February 22, 2018

Karen and Georgia cover the mystery of Nurse Cindy James and the McStay family murders.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. What'd you say? My favorite murder. Thanks everybody. Hey, we decided to start with song every episode. Do you like light jazz? So do we. Wow. It's getting more uncomfortable at the top of the show. The longer we do it. Every time I hear our intros as we're doing them, I think of the person in a car with her friend who's like, you have to listen to this podcast. Just please listen to it, mom. You're gonna love it. Right. And then the opening comes in and it's like, it gets better.

It gets better. They do this all the time. They always, it's like funny because it's always so uncomfortable. It's funny because it's so bad you don't want to listen to it and that's what they call irony, mom. Mom, stop judging me. Mom, stop gripping the steering wheel like that. Can I tell you a mom story? Please. I am the ongoing saga of my relationship with my lifetime relationship with my mother. It's always for life with those women. Forever. They're just there all every holiday until they're not so depressing. My mom's mom lived to be 104. So I've got a fucking wild girl. Yeah. That's really heartening. So I told her, I sent out an email to my family, being like, Hey, we're playing the Orpheum on, you know, in March in LA. And we're, you guys,

I want you to come. It's like a big fucking deal. You know, it's like LA hometown show. The Orpheum's a gorgeous theater. I'm like excited. It's so good. And my dad wrote back, Oh, be there, you know, plus five. And it was, you know, this person, of course we're going to go. And then my mom wrote back, literally, this is all she wrote. What time? No, I'm saying what time, because it was a question mark. What time? What time period? Yeah. What time? I'm saying it as it was written. And you know that was her inflection. You know that was her. And I know that has 71 year olds write emails. You know what I mean? Like they don't. It's just get any letter out that you can hit son. This was coming from a woman too, who went to fucking DC for like a trip

and called them and left a voicemail and said, I won't have long distance. So call John if you need anything. How was she getting hold of you? Long distance isn't a thing anymore. Did she mean cellular service? I don't think, no, I don't think she knows that everyone has long distance. Like that's the thing. It's, this isn't a fucking 10, 10, 3, 2, 1 anymore. Mom, I'm calling you on a calling card. So I have to make this quick. I only have seven minutes left. Call me. Oh, Jan. Janet. Janet, come on. Standing ovation at the orphanage. She goes, if it's not past her fucking bedtime. What time? What time? What she, I think really what she was saying is, please Georgia, when you communicate with the family, get really specific. I think

so too. Just let's get organized in these emails. So it's my fault. Yeah. That you're playing the orphan. Hey guys, we're playing the orphan on March 16th. Hopefully you can come. It's not sold out, is it? I don't know. They've released some tickets, so it might not be completely, I don't know. Hey, look, I mean, if you're interested and look into it, I don't know. You don't have, I mean, do your thing. We feel like you've given us enough already. We don't want to make you do anything. My family on the other hand needs to fucking be there. They need to step up. What have they done for me? Now, do you know that my father actually, my sister called me on this along the same line, and my father called her and said, when he heard we were playing the orphan said,

let's go down and be there for that show. So my sister's like, Oh my God, dad wants to come down. It's a big deal because his hips all screwed up. So he walks like an orangutan. I get it. You've seen it. So my sister's like, so I think we're going to come down and she, my sister's getting all excited or whatever. And then I said, that all sounds great. You know, we'll, we'll make it all work for dad. And I said, but you do know that we're coming up back up to San Francisco in the fall. And the second I sent the message of there's a possibility this is, this won't be the last show that you possibly could come to. Yeah. My dad goes, Oh, forget it. Just immediately, immediately bales on the plan. I want him to come guys. It'll be like our families are there. I know.

I might Marty and your dad could hang out. Oh my God, my dad will just shout over Marty's head. Could we talk about our double date with your dad? Please. One of the most romantic evenings that I've experienced in a while. He was down here and Karen sheepishly, one of those, you don't have to do it. It's really fun if you don't want to. I know it's weird and it's a big, do you guys want to go on a dinner and Vince and I of course like, yes. It felt like we had just gotten off like a nine day tour together. I was like, Hey, how about you make more plans? I know you guys don't want to see me and I also another kill garif, but please come. Please come. Oh my God, it was the best. So we went to fucking fancy pants. Moose on Franks, which is like the fanciest

thing. My dad is a special occasion. He's obsessed with Moose on Franks. I love it. He, we went there. He also has great memories because we went there. I think it might have been 15 years ago. And I was with some of my friends, um, one of whom was my friend Kevin, Sasha, who decided he was going to drink whiskey neat as his drink. So everyone else was ordering beer and wine or whatever. And he orders, he basically orders a double shot of whiskey and my dad goes, Jesus, do you have a gunfight in the morning? And then that was like legend for a while. And when my dad said, make the reservation, I want to go to, he kept joking about it where I'm like, dad, if you actually want to go to Moose on Franks, we can. He's like, well, I would like to go there. And then he goes, remember,

we went there and your friend was drinking all that whiskey. I was like, yeah, for someone who drinks that as much as my dad does, it really stood out to him that my friends are doing whiskey shots. I love it. Little did he know that that's all I drank constantly. It was the best. It was so good. And I'm like, meeting someone's dad and like, this is why you're this way. You know what I mean? Like not even like, he didn't do anything or say, he said some funny shit, but like, just to be like, oh, this is what we're raised by. Okay, this is good to know. Yes. And then I could see you getting embarrassed when he said certain things. He did certain things that I didn't give a shit about. Well, there was points where he was talking directly over Georgia. Like

Georgia would go, duh, duh. And he would just, well, and then I finally realized, and I was mortified. And I realized, oh, he can't hear her because it was really out in the restaurant. My dad has he is such bad fireman hearing that if you have to have over 70 year old hearing, yeah, it's over, but, but also all the bells. That's why he started telling you guys that story of all the bells going in all the houses every time there was a fire. That's how the, that's how the bell system was set up in the firehouses in San Francisco. So he, the bells just were going off all day long. Oh, I see what you're saying. So they basically like all of hearing damage from like 60s to the 80s or whenever they put in their new system. Like, I get it. You said it's, you were

like so embarrassed about it. And I don't care. And to, and totally understood what's going on. Well, it just, I didn't want you to think he was a blowhard because he's really not, but he just kept starting conversations because he didn't look at Georgia. Like he would start it and look up and Georgia be like, oh, like you're trying to ask him a question. I loved it. I just can't sit in silence. There wasn't much. There wasn't. It was actually, it was really, really fun. Yeah. Vince and I adored him. Okay, good. Adored him. Now, he's really is like an American classic and just a good time. Yeah. There are a few people that don't have fun with Jim Kilgara. No, Jim is our favorite. Unless you were keep America, make America great again,

hat and then he'll tell you to take it off. Your dad and my dad are not going to get along. We'll just make a no hats rule and everybody will be fine. Okay, great. Do you have any? Yo, yeah. It's the corrections corner that has needed to happen since the moment the last episode dropped. You've practiced it twice so far because it's so unfair. You practice it twice at the Salt Lake City shows over the weekend, which were fucking awesome and fun and thank you Salt Lake City. Thank you Salt Lake City. So much fun. What an amazing weekend. We had already just had so much fun in Cleveland and Columbus. Like we were just every show is so fun and it was like our last shows on tour until Europe and it was just it was great. It was so fun. It was so gorgeous

in that city. So but the interesting thing was the we actually did a show Thursday night, which we almost never do. So the episode had dropped that day. So we were real time with the podcast. So weird. So I got to do a basically a real time hours later corrections corner explaining that yes, in fact, the reason that Georgia had didn't hear about the tree trimmer murder, the Matthew Hoffman guy that had all the leaves in his living room and that creepy story that had happened in November. And I was like, how did I not hear about this? And I was like, you know why you haven't heard about it? Because it's so fresh off the presses. Well, actually. And in truth, it had happened in 2010, in November of 2010. So I was eight years off.

And that's why you hadn't heard of it. And I, I actually went and looked at the thank God, I still had the article on my like reading tab. And I opened it up like, I bet you this is one of those articles that has a current date, but then they're re quoting there's some lie I made up to myself. Yeah. Nope, right there. It was, it was the article was from 2011 reporting back so how did that happen? You think one time you put in 2017 on accident and it came. No, it's purely I wanted it to be. I wanted it to have just happened. You were so excited, like this fresh murder, like we always do old shit. It's going to be like exciting. Yes. And I feel like with the way the murder Reno community is with the way people tell us stuff, the way

Twitter is, if there was like, it just felt like to me, like I had stumbled upon a thing that I found first, which is insanity. When you think about like how quickly those stories go up on the Facebook page or how quickly people share things, one person will like, will like tweet us about it. And then you just want to hear about it again. So I could see that. I just think I got so obsessed with those leaves that everything else kind of went faded out around it. Pretty fucking great. I mean, it was great. Either way, it was great. It was a fun experience. I'm sorry you have to, you had to, I'm done apologizing for it. This is the third time, third and final. I fucking did it live to everybody. We never talk about it again. We're taking that episode down. We're going to

take it down. It's the last episode. Stephen, Stephen accidentally deleted it. Oh, no. Yeah. So I hope everyone's happy. But now, you know, I'll be better at checking dates and um, everybody, it was really funny. The people who did post on Twitter were trying to be so tactful and light about it. Yeah. Where it was like, um, so I don't want to be this person, but you're a fucking decade off friend. It was just like, oh, man. Now it happens. Can't get it right. I wanted to shout, to shout out. Oh God, what am I a fucking VJ? Yes, you are. I am. Didn't you know? I didn't know. You're J.J. Jackson. One of the gifts we got, of course, we got a ton of stuff in Utah because everyone's Mormon and they just like craft like. Not everyone's. They're all Mormon.

They're wizards. And so one of the things we got was like a beautiful, there was two earrings and two necklaces that I found out it's called Quilled, where you take a piece of paper and you turn it into like a flower or whatever the fuck. Yep. Quilled. So this girl named Mandy Lee took pages from my sweet Adrina and made us gorgeous jewelry out of it. Gorgeous. And so she, you can buy it at, um, artsy, heartsy boutique on Etsy and see it. And so I was looking her up. She also did that, that adorable line drawing or like stick figurine drawing of small foreign faction of us in a band and you and I are playing over with Elvis on the drums. She made that too. So she sells mugs and t-shirts and shit of that art print as well as my sweet Adrina Quilled

jewelry. And like she does, the Quilled jewelry is like her thing and she does a ton of, um, Harry Potter book pages. Oh, nice. I know a bunch of people who are going to like that. It's like really pretty fucking jewelry. And then it also is from my sweet Adrina, which is. There were little strips of paper on the back. Like it would be the thing that the earrings were like pressed into or whatever. And then there would just be a strip of like, my sister Vera said, it was like these lines from that book. So you knew what it was from. I love it. And I mean, we get so many, we're sitting amongst a pile, like post Stephen stopping by the PO box, picking up boxes, like fucking coolest shit gifts. Yeah. Someone, someone drunkenly accidentally went on it, eBay, and drunkenly

bought six packs of true crime trading cards. Yes. Only to find that in their state bought six boxes of packs of trading cards. So send just each a box. I don't know how many are in here, but it's amazing. A ton, right? Yeah. I'm just, it's just, we're so lucky. It's like this is the box they would sell at the store. It's so cool. Oh, also some, this is another additional crush on this corner that somebody pointed out that we weren't just talking about the Terminator and RoboCop. But, but you would also fold it in a little bit of total recall into that story. I wasn't even going to correct that because I feel like that's not, none of that's a mistake. It's just fucking fate. And it's how this, well, what did you say to the podcast? You said someone

tweeted you and was like, I hate to tell you guys, but you're, you, you were talking about two different movies and you said like, you tweeted back, are you new? Oh, no, no, no, it was like, it was basically a guy who, and I'm sure he was a fan. But he was, yeah, he was just going, they were talking about this, but then they actually turned it into this and then this. And they never stopped to, it was like this, basically a statement that we never acknowledged it or even knew it was happening. And I just wrote back, you must be new here. Because it's just like, when doesn't that fucking happen? That's why I wasn't in corrections quarter of that thing. It's because like, we just

fucking kept going and I believed you and you believed in me. I could see it all in my head. That might have been a little bit of men and black in there too, for all we know. Here's the thing, we can't wait to hear your podcast and how great that's gonna fucking go. And how zero mistakes are ever fucking made. Let us talk on the cuff. Let us fucking talk. And one of you has whiskey. Oh, I just also wanted to say, I just want to give a public formal apology to my dog, George. Who? Oh my God, George went viral. Did you see this, Stephen? George? Fiercely private. My fiercely private dog, George, who doesn't want to be a part of this

podcast in any way. I did a little video of her because she always drinks my fucking water. She didn't just drink. You made a video where she basically, if dogs could double flip you off. Yes. She fucking did a walk by drink out of your mug. And then Karen dryly going, that's mine. That's mine. That's the best. And it's only a four second video. I highly recommend, if you want to express yourself in any way, do it under five seconds. People really appreciate it. Totally. But she looks right at me. And then when I say that's mine, she wags her tail and walks away because she knows she's not supposed to be doing it. It's very cute. She's also gorgeous. So it's like, she's a lovely lady. I like that dog because she looks

different. Like when she's drinking the water, her ears are all long and flat and she looks like a hound. But if she hears like a squirrel in the backyard, then her ears flap up and she looks like a lab. Like she just changes constantly. She's like Ted Bundy. Sometimes she wears a really big turtleneck. And then sometimes she wears a mock turtleneck. Teeth are real fucked up. That's what got her. But she ended up becoming a Twitter moment. And then so all these people that all these listeners are like, haha, George is famous. You got so mad. I saw your response. What? This is fucked up. I know. I was, well, the first, whoever sent it to me first, I thought they were making a joke.

Yeah. And so then when I looked at it, I was like, what the hell? Like what is happening? Because I don't understand how I don't either. The whole moments page. I don't understand. Yeah. It's like, this is just for you. Well, in meanwhile, I'm sitting here with Elvis petting him and all he's been doing his whole life is trying to get fucking famous on the internet. And he's like this fucking bitch. George comes in off the side. She's very mad and she's not talking to me. Elvis will ride her down the set of stairs. You know, he did that once with a dog. Really? I found a stray. I brought it into my backyard. I lived like up a staircase and I went in to get some food for this stray. It was like,

like George, like a dog that size. And then I came out to like squeeze through the door to bring this dog the food and Elvis broke through the door and the dog was at the top of the stairs waiting for the food. Elvis jumped on the dog's back, rode it down the stairs and chased it, rode a dog and just chased it out of the yard. Wow. And the dog didn't come back. And he's like, I'll take that food, please. That's mine now. He has. Oh, what a good boy. Okay. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled. Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the

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at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three mask men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast.

You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Who's first? Yeah, it's you. Yes. Drinking. I love going first. Drink if you're first. Drink if you're first. Drink if you're wearing a house dress. Apsifek and loot. You know what? I left my favorite house dress in Cleveland. You did? How? I just left it on. There was a bath and I left it near the bath. Oh, that sucks. I'm so sad. So this is my replacement. Is it the magenta one? The one I loved so much. Like a vintage Komodo. Yeah, that was a good one. Very culturally. What's it called? Appropriating, but. Well, you know what it is that you shouldn't have worn the kabuki makeup.

That was what bothered me the most about it. As it should. Okay, so this is, this is something I found rediscovered, I should say, from one of the articles of like, I just found like the 10 weirdest unsolved mysteries segments. Okay, are you going into, are you doing the thing where now you're googling like bizarre murder? Yes, okay. There's a lot of good, there's not a lot of good YouTube videos, but there's a lot of YouTube videos of those like the top five, whatever. For some reason, people use voiceover, like computer voice, computer voices, but you can find a lot of interesting stuff there. And so this is one of them that I had forgotten about, but I know I saw when I was a kid. It's creepy as fuck. Here we go.

Okay. On June 8th, 1989, sidebar, my ninth birthday, whatever, in the Vancouver, British Columbia suburb of Richmond, the body of 44 year old nurse Cindy James was found in the yard of abandoned house. Oh, I forgot to say that this is about the death of Cindy James. Okay. Cindy had been drugged and strangled and her hands and feet have been tied behind her back. Her feet had been tied behind her back. Well, if she's hogtied. Yeah, she wasn't. Oh, but the police weren't sure if Cindy's death was an accident or a murder or if she had committed suicide. By tying her hands. Okay. Okay. Yes, exactly. Okay. All right. So let's get into it. All right. Okay. Cindy Jones, who if she were to be played in a, you know, recreation of fucking

unsolved mysteries or would be played by Vanna White. Oh, 1980s Vanna White. So just like ideal, everybody's 80s ideal blonde, beautiful blonde, vivacious, bright woman. She's 19 year old nursing student. When she meets at the hospital at Vancouver General Hospital, she meets Dr. Roy, make peace. Sounds fake, right? He's a psychiatrist. And he's 18 years older than her and married with two kids, but they fall in love. So 19 year old Cindy falls in love with him. And sorry, he's 28. 18 years older than her. Oh, 18 years. So it's 18 plus 19. 41. I'm truly the last person you should have asked that question. Right, Stephen? No. 41. Nobody here knows numbers. It's 37. Okay. Go to college kids. Oh, sorry. Can I quickly sidebar? There's somebody that

tweeted and was like, Karen keep, anytime Karen wants to name something boring, she calls them an accountant. And it's like, it's like the third account and we've heard from that's like, we're really not as boring as you say we are. And I feel really bad. I apologize to that person who tweeted. What is it? What's going to be the next one then? It has to be something else. I'll think about it. And it'll be something maybe jokie or more lighthearted and the one that'll hurt people's feelings less. But I'll still be mad at you, whoever those people are, communications majors. How about Amish? The Amish? That's boring. Okay, but they can't get contact me. Who about candle makers? Good. Yes. That's a hobby. Okay.

Fucking it's tidal wave of candle maker emails. I make a good living. Fuck you. I have insurance. Okay, here we are. Yes, she fought they fall in love with each other. Uh, within four days of Roy's divorce, he and Cindy are married four days. So 19 year old Cindy and 20 37 year old Roy are married, which is like, okay, so I'm 37. If I were voting a fucking 19 year old, you'd be like, what are you doing? Right? Yeah, that is too young, too young. And also, but it's also the 80s, you know, he's having a midlife crisis. Obviously, his wife and two kids are like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah. Okay. He's a doctor, you say he's a psychiatrist. Okay. So okay, so they get married, Cindy graduates from nursing school later, she becomes an administrator

at a program for children with behavioral and emotional issues. She's like the best. So after 16 years of marriage, they didn't have kids, Cindy ends things with Dr. Make Peace. This seems to be amicable. That's in 1982, they split up. And that's when her life hits the fan. So four months into their trial separation, Cindy starts to receive anonymous phone calls from a man who knows her name, knows where she lives is like threatening her sometimes or just breathing into the phone sometimes. And it was really scaring the shit out of her. It's very scary. Yeah. After a week after the call starts, someone smashes her window and breaks in well, or breaks and smashes her window while she's out. And later that same week, an intruder somehow has a key to her house,

gets into the house and stabs her pillow over a dozen times, which is like shit, man. I just realized I think I saw the headline for the story and the like Getty image for the story because there was a knife on a pillow and it said this was like recently and it was like this is the most fucked up X story you'll ever hear. X story? Yes. I don't know. What's X mean? Like her ex-husband. I was like, is that MK Ultron? I don't know. I was X stands for a word I don't want to say. I got it. I'm wrong. I'm wrong. Yes. No, you might be right. Okay. But you're not. Okay. But it could be. Got it. Is it? We don't know. We certainly don't know and we're not going to say right now. Is it? It might be an unsolved mystery.

We don't know. Shit. Context clues. You said it four times. Yeah, but that show hasn't been on like this came this was like the fucking 80s. So like, you know, or 90s from the 90s. Okay. 16 years. They break up. Should hit the fan. Threatening stabs her pillow. Okay. Bizarre notes written in kidnapping font a.k.a. my favorite murder logo font begin to appear on her doorstep and on her windshield of her car. One card has a picture of a woman who looks like Cindy a.k.a. Vanna White. The woman's eyes have been scratched out and another time the woman's throat like there's red ink around her throat. The police investigate but couldn't track anyone and the phone calls she were getting were too short to be traced so they can't figure out who's doing this.

Maybe somebody who knows how tracing calls works though. Ding dong. Great idea. Thank you. Other things happen like her porch lights are smashed, her phone lines get cut, all these things keep fucking happening. She freaks out, she decides to move and on January 27th, 1982, the first physical attack occurs. Fuck. Cindy's good friend and neighbor Agnes Woodcock. Leave it alone. Pause for dramatic effect. Pause for conversation throughout the office. Had agreed to spend the night so Cindy would feel safer so Agnes gets to say. Sorry how old is Agnes? 72. You'd hope. That's a non-solution. Or is this going to become another Bonnie? Where we at? That's a non-solution inviting an Agnes over. Yes. Come on.

Is Agnes a fucking Navy Seal? Then get her out of there. You don't need company if you feel threatened. Get someone that's threatening. I mean maybe Agnes is a fucking bodybuilder. Perhaps. I'll let you tell me. Let's not cast aspersions. Okay. This ends with Agnes being a bodybuilder. No. No it doesn't. That's the big reveal. That big reveal. Okay. Agnes gets there around 9.30 at night. Cindy's not answering the door so she goes around to go to the back. Oh no. And she hears moaning. And Agnes finds Cindy on the ground with a black nylon stocking tied around her neck and there's some scratches on her body and they also find later a needle mark on her arm. So Cindy tells authorities that she had been taking a load of boxes out to the garage

you know because she's moving and shit. Yep. And finds that the light was out but in the dark someone grabs her from behind. She felt a pinprick on her arm and she thinks she must have been drugged because that's all she remembers from the incident. And the police are like this is crazy. We're going to look into it. They look into her ex-husband. Ex. Right. Like stands for your ex. Remember. Right. He's got an alibi for the time of the attack and investigators aren't able to find any signs of any attacker at all. And there are never any calls when the police are doing 24 hour surveillance. There's never any attacks when that's happening. They always happen when the police aren't around. And again the calls are untraceable. So the police are starting to doubt

Cindy's stories. Her parents thought the attacker clearly is smart enough to fucking not come the fuck around when there is surveillance. Yep. Her friends and family try to convince her to move into actually like an apartment building where there's more people around maybe to get a vicious dog or something but she's like I'm not fucking letting this take over my life. No. And they also worried because she would take she had a small dog that she loved and she would take the dog out for walks at like 3 a.m. and wouldn't stop doing that and they were like we're freaking out about it but they thought it was weird that she wouldn't stop doing that. Yeah you have to adjust a little bit if you are being threatened in some way. Right. That whole thing of I'm gonna live my life

exactly the way that's not. Yeah. Unfortunately. But she does move into a new house. She paints her car and she changes her last name and that's how she becomes Cindy James. So she also hires a private investigator named Ozzie Caban. Caban. Ozzie Caban. Which is like the best private investigator name ever. It's pretty Ozzy Y like. I.E. Osborne. I.E. like Davis. Okay. He he says that she would be evasive at times and was withholding information from him and police but he did believe everything she was saying. He did think that she had a stalker and an attacker. Her mother thought that because she was being evasive because she was threatened and feared for her family's life and that's why that was happening. Her private investigator installed

security lights around her house and gave her a two way radio and a panic button just in case. Oh that's good. Yeah. So one night Ozzie hears strange sounds coming from the radio and rushes to Cindy's house. He finds Cindy lying unconscious in the hallway. He's like break down the door. She has a paring knife through her hand and also like a note in it. So like the paring knife through her note in a hand. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Like stuck through to the ground. I don't know how deep. I don't know what. Or like wherever she was though. Yeah. She was lying unconscious and then they put a note and a paring knife in her hand. The note said you are dead bitch. Fuck. All she remembered from that attack was that a needle was put into her arm and also

she seemed to remember that it was more than one person. Like there might have been two or three assailants at the time. Like a couple of the attacks. No fingerprints are found. There's no clues. There's no leads aside from Cindy's injuries. There's no evidence anyone else have been in the house. So investigators are frustrated with Cindy and they are like this chick is fucking doing this on her own. They think she is staging all of this. So hoping to convince investigators to take her more seriously. Cindy's like give me a fucking polygraph. She fails the polygraph twice. Oh no. The operator suggests the stress she was under might have affected the results and she's too embarrassed. She's embarrassed so she wants the investigation to be shut down. She

refuses to sign her statement and she says it's because she's afraid for her family. Then December 11th 1985 a cyclist finds Cindy lying in a ditch six miles from her home. She's dazed and semi-conscious. She's suffering from hypothermia has cut some bruises all over her body and she again had a black nylon stocking around her neck. Fuck. All she's wearing is a man's work boot and glove. She doesn't remember anything that could help with the investigation. Man. And then one night she has her friends Agnes our friend Agnes and her husband spend the night to keep her safe. Her husband's there. All right. But he's tiny. He's pocket sized. A little baby. They are all woken up in the middle of the night because the basement of the house is on fucking fire. No.

The phone line had been cut so Agnes husband fucking Mr. Agnes fucking runs out and sees a man standing at the curb and yells to him to call the fire department. But the man just runs off. Which is like but everyone says like the man just ran off and everything you listen to. And then it's like maybe he ran to fucking call 911. Oh that's true. You know what I mean. Yeah. He doesn't. It's like okay time. Yeah. I'm doing what you told me to do. Yeah. I'm going to run off. Yeah. Maybe he ran off and call 911. Maybe. We don't know. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he started the fire. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he was scared of yelling and he just ran. Maybe he was walking his dog in the middle of the night. We don't know. Please determine that the

fire was started from inside the house because they saw no fingerprints on the window. They think the the perp would have used that window to get in. There's no fingerprints. It's fucking Jean Bonnet all over again. They determine that Cindy must have staged the incident. And there was also another fire that happened another time that they think she staged the incident. And then they found out that the police had been charged. Letters and phone calls continue. Cindy's like fucking no one will believe me that I'm being stalked and threatened and attacked. She's freaking out about it. In June 1985 she tells she's like going crazy. She tells her physician that she wants to die. So she's diagnosed with severe depression and committed

crime. So while she's there she's examined by a psychiatrist who says that Cindy's he determines Cindy's troubles are quote self initiated. He said she'd fallen into a quote a psychogenic fugue an altered consciousness stemming from a deep seated trauma and that she wasn't even aware that she was behind everything. So she's there for 10 weeks and then is released. Okay. What do you think so far. I don't like that. Okay. It frustrates me. Here's the thing and this is this is clearly just off the top of my head but you don't cut your own phone line. You don't stab your own hand. Like people there are people who do things like this all the time and they do it in a way like the idea that you would be going past the point of normal like I'm trying to swindle

people but like I think personally psychopaths or people that try to manipulate a bunch of people at once by like oh my life isn't terror will not harm themselves to do that or will like not you know what I mean. Okay. But those are they they harm their children. Munchausen. Yeah but that's not them. That's an extension of them. I mean there is Munchausen. Their hand does not get stabbed. Well and also Munchausen's would be that would be an additional kind of issue but this is that thing of like if they're trying to say like because what would the point of that be getting the attention of the police like she wants police attention. I don't know. Or emergency attention or something. What would the point of strangling yourself with a nylon bee and wake up in the

ditch with hypothermia. Like what is she getting. What would the benefit be. Yeah is my. That's a good question. I couldn't be furring my brow further in total confusion and what the fuck. Okay let's keep going because it's fucking weirder. Oh boop boop boop. Okay hold on. Okay she gets out after 10 weeks then on October 26th 1988 she's attacked for the fifth time. An RCMP officer mounted police. Royal Canadian mounted police officer discovered her unconscious in her car nude from the waist down. Her hands are tied behind her back and she's squeezing the panic button of her silent alarm. There's duct tape over her mouth. There's bruising and swelling over her one of her eyes and she has a black nylon stalking tied around her neck again.

She's dressed at the hospital and but no one else's fingerprints are at the scene. There's they bring in a fucking police dog. There's no scent to pick up at all. There's no indication that anyone else was present. Okay. She finally tells police that her tormenter is her ex-husband Roy Makepeace. They encourage her they want her to phone him and confront him and tape the conversation. He'd recognize any involvement during the conversation and in fact he had he gave the police a recording from his own answering machine that contained a death threat. Do you want to hear it? Yeah. Okay. Wait. Okay. Yes. Do you want to? Yes. Okay. What? No, I do. Okay.

No. Oh. Hello, everyone. Whose podcast is that? Oh, shout out to the trail in cold with Robin Warder. Sorry, I saw that. What the fuck? And so everyone, I mean, read it loves this fucking story. Like, it sounds like a woman. I've definitely read about it before. Yeah. It does sound like a woman. It does. So Roy thinks that Cindy has multiple personalities and isn't even aware that she's doing these things to himself. But he's like, I, but I'm not behind this. Okay. And they tend to believe him. The psychiatrist. Yeah. Hold on. Incoming. Here's Roy. And then a train comes by.

Okay. So she had been given those two lie detector tests and had been showing deceit in them, but she's given a third one. And when she's asked if she staged one of the attacks, she says no, and she's judged to be truthful. So there's like a little bit of both going on. So after almost seven years after the harassment started, Cindy is now 44 goes missing on May 25th. Shit. Her car is discovered in the parking lot of a small shopping mall where she had gone that day to deposit her check and to do some grocery shopping. In fact, her groceries are found in the car. There's blood on the driver's side door of the car and items from her wallet are found under the car. So this is after nearly 100 well documented cases of harassment, including threatening phone

calls and notes, vandalism and arson. Three dead cats were found in her yard. Oh, I know. Sorry, Stephen and me. And five violent physical attacks between 1982 and 1989. Cindy's body is found dead. Two weeks after her car had been found, Cindy was found. Her body is found by a construction worker in the yard in an abandoned house a mile and a half from where her car had been parked. There's a fucking photo of it online. It's not gruesome, but she said just horrible. Yeah. A black nylon stocking was tied tightly around her neck and the autopsy showed that Cindy died from an overdose of morphine and other drugs. There was a needle mark in her arm, but they had been taken orally. Oh. Yeah. So the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, they believe that her death was

an accident or suicide. They think she was responsible for her own death. Okay. So there's a fucking crazy coroner's inquest because they're like, did she, was she killed by her stalker finally after six and a half years? Or did she do this for herself? It becomes the lengthiest and most expensive public inquest in British Columbia's history. Wow. 84 witnesses are called a testify. There's a not specialist who comes and is like, so her arms were tied behind her back. The not specialist shows how she could have tied up her legs, then tied up her arms in front of her and stepped through to tie them up behind her back within three minutes. She could have done that. Also that, so she had an overdose of morphine, but so people are like, how could she have done

those things after taking morphine, but she had taken them orally, which meant she would have had like 15 to 60 minutes before that kicked in to tie herself up and to walk to that spot a mile and a half from her car. So it was still possible she could have done it and maybe put the needle mark in her arm as a like red herring. Yes. That's the word. Thank you. But also they didn't find a needle or a vial or anything near her body or near her car. And sorry, the idea is she ties herself up and then takes a mile and a half walk. She takes a mile and a half walk or whatever gets to this place somehow and then does the tying then does the tying maybe takes the morphine then and then dies. Okay. So, but also the weird, but the weird thing too is that her

body, the place where her body is found in the abandoned yard is really close to the street. You can see in an old video, like an old interview with her with Ozzie, her fucking police dude. It's close to the street almost like someone should have smelled it or saw her and nobody did. So that was weird and Ozzie was who still believed her was like that must mean that she had been dumped later close to the time when she was found. Yeah, because somebody would have watched her walk in or like seen her around or smelled a body or seen her body lying because it was there. Got it. Got it. So maybe. So, okay, after three months of this coroner's inquest, the jury couldn't decide and called her death due to a quote unknown event. Whoa. And the death is

classified as undetermined and still is. So, of course, there's a shit ton of theories on the case and on Reddit, especially no one agrees. I'm like, did she okay, did she have a mental illness dissociative identity disorders, one of the things, munchausens, schizophrenia. Some people are like, maybe it started with an actual stalker and no one believed her. And so, she kind of escalated it to make people believe her and accidentally did these things to herself. And then they look into like every single time she was found bound, it was near a place where she would have been found quickly or she had the panic button in her hand. Right. So she would have never been left like long enough. She knew that Agnes was coming at 9 30 at night. She knew

that she had the walkie talkie with Ozzy. And so he heard weird sounds and came over. She put her own body, you know, she expected to be found the last time when she died because she was near a walk way. Oh, it's just that no one actually no one actually found, you know what I mean? It's like, this is one of those cases where there's so many reasons behind both of the answers, either she did it herself, or there was an actual murderer and stalker. And there's and you know, even when I was writing this and everyone has their own fucking opinion, even though I was writing this, I found myself leaving shit out because I thought she did it to herself. So I found myself leaving stuff out that didn't support it. And I made myself put it back in because it's not fair. Yeah.

So it's really easy to do. Sure. Well, and also you just want to make sense of it. Yeah. Also to me, I'm like, obviously this, but it's not obvious. Also, I feel like she would have had and maybe no one's talking about this part because it would be so disrespectful of the dead. Did she have any signs of any mental illness before this stalking right thing started? Because if not, if she was just regular pants and going about her day and handling things, then that ID, it is so easy to call somebody crazy and be like, Oh, this is a thing. Oh, I can write this off because it's something she's just doing it to herself. Yeah. Which is like, but what like what for? Well, it's a real that's a great question. And what's frustrating too about this case, which probably

makes it so interesting too, is that you really only have these facts of her stop of what happened to her after her divorce. So we don't know. I couldn't find anything about her before she met her husband. Right. So it's hard to tell the psychiatrist that she went to when she got committed said that there was it's from past trauma. Right. So who the fuck knows what that means. And she had this, you know, like everyone's saying that she had this traumatic life event with her divorce, but they by all accounts were had an amicable separation. So it doesn't seem like it was totally traumatic. Right. Well, and also one of the things that that psychiatrist said it sounded like was something along the lines of multiple possible multiple personality,

which they've proven isn't a real thing. Right. Right. So there's those things where like 1988, there's a lot of like 1980s old school shit terms. I just think cutting your phone line is such a dramatic thing to do. Why cutting your phone line? Just like just it fucks things up. It's you don't just get your phone turned back on. Yeah. Like that's kind of you won't have a landline in the 80s for like two weeks until like I'm going to fix it. Maybe she fucking likes that because then she can't get these calls anymore. I mean, I'm not like, I don't know. I but that's yeah, that's dramatic. And people have to come to your aid and it is a big deal. And so but it also isn't harming you. So it's this like someone cut my phone lines seems like a big deal. It's

the same thing like, I guess nowadays it'd be someone stole my phone, right or whatever. Yeah. So it all these things are these things that are I'm I don't know which one it is. And I can't say so I can see the point of why it's why she would do these things to herself for attention. It makes sense to me. Yeah, I just it doesn't the attention part doesn't make sense. Although I'm not denying that's a thing people get. Yeah, where it's almost like then the ambulance came and it was so exciting or whatever. But yeah, it just seems like well to me it's so much more likely a woman especially a woman if she looked like something like Vanna White in the 80s or 90s had a stalker and a person who was trying to make her go crazy and torture her. But how how did they find no trace of him for

six and a half years? Well, to me, it sounds like I mean, clearly out that the cops discounted her really early and so didn't bother looking for shit. Also could have been that could have been that the stalker was a cop and knew all the inside shit. Well, we got some shit then to talk about. Oh, shit show. All right. Because also that thing where you when you said the thing about the dogs not getting a scent, but they have to know what they're smelling for to do it in the first place. So yeah, if it's only her smell, they need a sock from the person they suspect. Like you I don't they don't just find a scent and run to a person. That makes that's very true. I only know that from our friend and someone knows something. I know all about those. You should be a royal

Canadian mountain. Oh, I will. Okay, so let's talk about a couple of suspects. All right. Constable Pat McBride was the first investigator to look into Cindy's claims way back in 1982. He ended up getting involved with her romantically pretty quickly and and moved in with her for a brief period. Their relationship ended when he asked her to marry him and she said no. Okay. So he was a fucking cop and spurned. But he was the only police who believed and supported her that she had a stalker. But it's like, of course, you're like, no, yeah, I totally believe it. You know, yes, that's the perfect hiding. Right. But maybe to his friends, he was like, she's fucking crazy. Yeah. And he so he was looked into as a suspect and cleared four years after

Cindy's death. Pat pleaded guilty to two incidents of sexually assaulting women. Oh, and he had been under psychiatric care since 1984 because of a personality disorder. Okay. Which is like, I mean, who is it? Well, you would hope not all police, right, people and people that are supposed to uphold the law. Right. Jesus eight. So he was looked into and cleared, but that's some that's some shit to consider. That's a real swamp. Yes. Also, okay, here's, okay, here's the fun part. This isn't fun. Here's the part. When Cindy was under hypnosis at one point to try to remember who had attacked her in more details. She had a memory of being on a trip with her ex-husband, Dr. Makepeace, shortly before their divorce. They were with a doctor named James Tyhurst.

And she said she witnessed them doing something sinister, including cutting up bodies like had killed people and were cutting up bodies. She remembered that during hypnosis. So it turns out this fucking dude, Dr. James Tyhurst, look him up. He was had been sexually abusing his, some of his female patients and he was arrested just four months after Cindy's death. And in 1991, he was convicted on five counts of sexual and indecent assault and ended up paying one of his victims half a million dollars in damages. He was one of those psychiatrists that would do that thing where he would make them sign a fucking master and slave thing to be like, you have daddy issues here. Here's how to get past them. Like you need to let me take over your life.

And then some occasions he would like have them take their shirt off and whip them. He was like a fucking psychopath. And he was a psychiatrist. And basically leading these women to believe he was healing them. Part of their process. Yeah. Dark. So here we go. Conspiracy theory time because I just finished fucking Wormwood on Netflix. I highly recommend everyone watches all the way through. It's so good. It's so good. Okay. So I totally believe this part. Dr. Tyhurst worked with the CIA in the 1950s

in experiments involving brainwashing, including he worked on a project called Project Artichoke, which turned into MKLTRA Jesus MKLTRA started as Project Artichoke. So for everyone who doesn't know, the project studied hypnosis, forced morphine addiction. She died from a fucking morphine overdose. That's right. She did. Did I say morphine? Yes, you did. And they also studied the subsequent forced withdrawal of morphine and the use of chemicals, including LSD to produce amnesia and other vulnerable states and subjects. Fucking age.

Go watch Wormwood if you think that that's bullshit. Right fucking. Georgia will fight you. I will fight you. I just want to be in the meeting where people are like, look, we're doing some pretty great sinister shit. We're dosing everyone with acid. We're making people pretend to commit suicide. We cannot call ourselves Project Artichoke anymore. It doesn't suit us. It doesn't suit the project. But then one guy goes, what about the layers? You peel one artichoke, like leaf off. And they're like, Stanley, you've had your time at the table. Now we're talking about the future.

MKLTRA bust. And they're like, that sounds creepy. All I want is for future fucking true crime podcasts to have a cool name and not laugh at Project Artichoke. That's right. MKLTRA it is. But now, so I want a Project Artichoke. That's our new fucking business venture. Project also happens to be Elvis's favorite food, artichokes. It's a fucking full circle.

So did she witness her husband and they broke up pretty quickly after and fuck Dr. Tyburn fucking doing some sinister shit. And Dr. Tyburn is like, well, I'm going to fucking mind control the shit out of her for six and a half years. So she doesn't, no one believes what she's saying. And we make her seem like a totally crazy woman that would do this thing voluntarily to get attention. Therefore, she has no credibility with her family, with her friends. Do we call it fucking Constable Pat McBride and give him $10,000 to be in on it?

This goes all the way to the middle of the artichoke. Oh, no. Oh, dip the shit in garlic butter and put it to fucking bed. God. So either way, if she if she was doing it herself, which I believe 60%, she didn't know she was doing it. It's horrible and sad. So you think it was a puppet master situation where she it wasn't she wasn't doing it because of a psychotic break or some kind of thing. It was because of that.

No, I think she I think she had some severe mental illness that dissociative identity. I don't know what by I don't know what. And listen, everyone knows I'm not fucking saying that people who are who have mental illness are fucking crazy because I have hi. I have my welcome to my life. But I it does seem like there's a lot of a lot of everything that happened can be reasoned that she was doing these things to herself and didn't know about it. And if that's true, how sad is it that she had to live through that of her own mental or if it's fucking not true. And there was someone doing these things to her and no one

believed him thought she was crazy. How fucking sad is that every direction? It's it's an insane case. And I don't think we'll ever know because, you know, there's just not there's not enough. Especially if you start to link it to the CIA or MKLT or something that you can you can these days, it feels more and more like, Oh, yeah, that's possible. Yeah. Oh, yeah, some deep some. Well, they did this shit, man. They really did. They really did it.

Have I mentioned wormwood? Do I have to say it again? How many times? But it's funny because I've heard the story about her and you really not you personally, the story gets told really with this thing of like, here's this horrible thing, but also isn't even isn't even crazier. She was doing it to herself. So you almost get served this worst case scenario. You know what I mean?

Like it's a more interesting story if she was doing it to herself or it's a more twist. It's I think what's so interesting about it is that nobody knows and it feels awful. Either way, either place you land on it, it feels awful because she's still, you know, she still was tormented and no matter what. Right. I'm just saying, you don't cut your own phone line. Okay. I'm just saying no one cuts a landline. First of all, how do you even fucking do it?

I love that the thing that you have fucking a problem with. It's the only thing that I have in this life. It's but it's so like for people who have never had landlines or didn't didn't rely on them. You don't know how serious you are about this. It's kind of like how I don't know if it's still this way, but like, I mean, I don't know if it's like a known thing or whatever, but it's like, you just couldn't get anybody to get anything taken care of in a short amount of time. Yeah.

So that whole thing of like the windows between Tuesday and Friday and they'll come whenever they feel like it. Yeah. I don't know. For something like a phone, I just don't see it happening. Also, the other day I was sitting at home and all of a sudden my power went out. And of course the first thing I think is I didn't pay my bill. Everyone thinks that.

And but then it came back on and then it went off again. And it was like three o'clock in the afternoon. I was just laying there watching TV. I was like scared, like white hot scared because I'm like, someone's outside turning my power off. Oh my God. And it's the bomb drop finally. Yeah.

I took it more of a one on one. I was going to have to like get into a knife fight with somebody. But this just shows what the things we're scared about. Yes. And they're always with us. And they're always there and Xanax doesn't help. Well, you it'll still happen. And you just don't register anything.

Well, there's so many nuances to this case, too. And I urge people to go to fucking Reddit and the unexplained message boards and just look at everyone's theories because it's so interesting. Yeah, everyone has his theories and then they and every comment is fucking. Yeah. But you know, and it's and they're all right. It's just. Yeah.

It seems like it could truly be it could go any direction. Like people answered the phone when they were at her house with her standing there and no one was on the line. Yeah. But no one ever answered the phone and there was someone talking on the line. You know what I mean? It's like that kind of thing. Also, I really fucking hated that phone call.

Oh, so many that's why I play this. Somebody standing there trying to be threatening. It's like it's not the voice or it's the idea that a person is on the other line thinking to do that to someone is trying to scare the shit out of you. Yeah, it's just so fucking weird. Soon phones won't exist. That's the dream. Talking to anyone won't exist.

Just let's it'll all be podcast text text me like two emojis. Get it. Get the idea across. If you want to tell me anything, make a podcast podcast about it. Send me the podcast. If it doesn't get if it gets under top ten in itens. I'll listen to what you have to say. Nice.

Mom. Yeah, that's what time you want to know what time what time make a podcast about it. Tell me in a podcast. So that's the story of Cindy James and her death. Well, that's fascinating. I definitely have heard of it before, but I didn't know her by name. Yeah, but it's funny because the way you said that and Unsolved Mysteries style, right?

It was on Unsolved Mysteries. My murder today is also one that I was like, hey, whatever happened to that story. Love it. Did one of those. Yeah. And also I did and this I understand I've been leaning on a lot lately, but who fucking cares? It's our fucking pocket. My the way I'm trying to find stories is to go on itunes and then just look under true crime

and see what they have like what because the ID channel at this point now they have every water feature style murder. It's like swamp murders and pool murders and fucking shallow puddle. And somehow they're able to turn it into a half an hour show when it's really like the husband killed her. Right. But it's but because in essence it's so fascinating that you don't you don't need much. So I can't keep up with a lot of those ones.

Yeah. But there's a really good one. Water feature. Take a minute for the water feature. You know what it comes up in the story. That's why it was on the top of my head. But James Patterson has a new like a reenactment crime series that I found like I think I stumbled upon.

I highly recommend it. What is that? He's at the top. He does this goofy introduction. You know James Patterson is the novelist and he like he has his own commercials will be like my new book will drive you crazy. He looks like someone's grandpa. So I started watching this because I'm like I bet this is going to be real cheesy.

It is so wonderfully produced and acted and really well written and they're true. They're true crimes. They're like it's not fictionalized. Is it called waterfall murders? What water feature? It's called who didn't turn off the hose. My dad murdered everybody in the house because you left the hose on over night. Drinking poison out of a hose.

Hot water out of a green garden hose. Wait. What's the what's the show called? James Patterson colon. Steven's going to tell us in a minute. Out of the corner my eyes see him pick up his phone. Oh I love that you did. I love that you tried to avoid it because I was like wait Karen tell us.

I didn't help you. I just put it into my Tivo though. So I thought if I started to say James Patterson the rest would come out. It doesn't do that in real life. We don't have Tivos in our brains yet. It doesn't. I'll read it. It's called murder is forever.

Yeah and it and that's really true. I mean how many times have we told you guys? But now that James Patterson's saying it. He's right. So he's good but there was another one I found and this is what got me to this story. So also we know People Magazine right there and always has been with the true crime. Forefront. At the forefront.

Has been all over John Benet's death since it happened. That's what they did it. That's what they do and now they're devoted and they have a dedicated team. So this is the mixed day family murder. You're doing it. I'm doing it. I love it.

Oh mixed days. It makes me so crazy because when I saw this was one of the choices. When I was looking at all the choices for the People Magazine investigates. It was that thing where I went oh I remember that. I remember that happening. I remember it being breaking news here in LA. I remember them talking about oh if this family of four went missing. And then the follow up reports in like the following say month or so.

They all led and told this weird story where I started to go oh they probably brought it on themselves. Oh they probably oh they're escaping something. They did this. They did this. They did this. They did it to themselves or they're running away because they're the criminals. Right.

Really that narrative got into like the media pretty strongly. Yeah. And then it made me go oh well then they probably just ran away and there were tax evaders or some weird thing. And then I just never heard anything else about it. So when I saw it come up as that choice I was like I bet you that ended way different than I remember and I need to know what the whole story is. Oh this one hurts.

It's bad. And it's Southern California of course. So it's Fallbrook, California which is 100 miles north of San Diego. So it's that weird space between. Now 100 miles north. Yeah. So you know like as you go down toward San Diego and there's like Temecula and whatever. It's right I think it's right south of Temecula from what I remember.

I looked at the map a couple times but it's basically kind of just I know I can read maps. Google maps. Okay so Joey and Summer Misty are happily married couple. He designs custom made water features. Oh my god. That's why that was in my head. Full fucking circle. Full circle.

So basically it's like these really high-end it's kind of an amazing business and you know people like that that are like they're artists but then they applied their art to actually make something functional that people need. So it's like water fountains and water features that were all. Like waterfalls in the pool that go under the pool. Exactly. Because you're rich as fuck and you just need more shit in your house. Yes very high-end business.

It reminds me of something that would be like now an HGTV show. Totally. The Mixtay family. Family water features. They bring in they're the specialists that the like those weird Las Vegas rent brothers bring in. The property brothers? The rent brothers.

The rental brother. They're a little bit more low down than the property brothers. Property brothers are about buying. The property brothers are like we're not going to fucking Las Vegas dude. That's right. The rent brothers are like yeah if you have a part-time job and you love beer we're your guys. Yeah Las Vegas is where to go. Okay so that's what Joey does for a living.

A really fancy great business that he started himself and that just is doing better and better. And so they just bought this really nice house in Fallbrook. And Summer is a full-time real estate agent. So they're doing very well and they have two young sons. A five-year-old and a three-year-old. So they on February I believe it's around like February 8th or 10th. Joey is what everyone calls him. Joey Mixtay's father Patrick notices that he's not answering his calls.

Every time he calls Joey he get it goes straight to the mailbox is full. He cannot get a hold of him. And he finally calls his other son Michael and says will you go check on Joey in the house because he's not answering like what's going on. And then they start getting calls complaints of people that are looking for their water features or their orders or say want a question or whatever and no one's answering. And Joey was a really astute businessman so they knew once they started hearing complaints through emails that like calls weren't being returned that's when they really started getting

worried that something was going on because it's just not like him. And actually the webmaster for Joey's company was the one that called and said I got all these emails it's like he's I can't get a hold of him. So then the whole family kind of gets together and Michael, Joey's brother and then Joey's business partner who is the guy that took the designs and actually made the water features. His name is Chase Merritt. He's like the construction did. Yeah. He's like you designed it on the paper and I take all the tubes twisted

around make a water feature. We ship it out. Boom. We all make $10,000. They go over to the mixtase new house and they're looking around. They see that the family that Joey's truck is in the driveway but that the family car is gone. The family car is in the Zuzu trooper and it's not there. They look over the back fence.

The dogs are out in the backyard. They haven't been fed. They're they're like going crazy that people are actually there and then Michael finds an open window and he goes into the mixtase house and they look around and there's no blood anywhere. There's nothing amiss. There doesn't look like there's been a struggle but it looks like people were just there five minutes ago. So there's two little bowls of popcorn on the couch that are just sitting on the couch. There's glasses on the counter, you know, reading glasses, sitting on the counter.

There's open cans of paint from a room that they were, you know, like repainting. They were open. No one leaves a can of paint open. Not even if they were going to run to the corner. No. It's like, what if the dogs get in? Duh, duh, duh. Or the kids.

Yeah. I'm so anal retentive about that shit. There's no fucking way you're just leaving those and I don't have dogs or kids. Right. And they said later on they say that they're the kind of people that they brought their dogs everywhere so they wouldn't, like the idea that the dogs were out in the yard, not fed is like, was really upsetting to them. They knew something was terribly wrong.

Sure. On February 15th, the family reports the entire family missing to the San Diego Sheriff's Department because they try to contact them and every way they look, they look everywhere and they're like, no, this is like, we need the police to start investigating this. Yeah. Yes. So the police narrow it down to the last, anybody heard from them and the last like traceable like phone activity was on February 4th of 2010. And February 15th is when they got a hold of cops.

Yes. Wow. So they, yeah, they basically was like, oh, they're so busy. They're just not getting back to us. And then it got to the point where it's like, somebody's got to look into this. So I think, and also February 15th was like, may have been the official day that it started. So they could have been talking to the cops the second after they went into the house

and it looked like everyone had just walked out of the room, which is such a creepy feeling. But anyway, so they see that they, that on February 4th at 828 p.m., a cell phone tower pinged Joseph's phone. He had made a call to employee and employee in Rancho Cucamonga to talk about work. Um, and then they find out that a neighbor, their neighbor had a surveillance camera that caught the edge of the mixed days driveway. And so they have video footage of the mixed days is Zuzu Trooper backing out of the driveway at 747 p.m. on the night of February 4th.

I forgot about that part. Yeah. But you can't see. So all you can see are the wheels going down the driveway. You don't even see where the windows are on the car. It doesn't go up high enough. So you can't see who's in the car, but you just see that the trooper is leaving the house. And then on February 8th, they find the family's 1996 Zuzu Trooper.

It had been towed from a parking lot near San Ysidro and the security guards later tell investigators it may have been parked there sometime between 530 and 530 p.m. and 7 p.m. And so then they start looking. It's basically a parking lot that's right next to the border. So then they start watching video footage because they're like, well, what if the family just went into Mexico and something happened? Because that's basically what they're the car being driven there tells them that. Yeah.

So then they find here is this again. I'm sorry. This was 2010. Okay. So so and I know that for a fact. I should have questioned you. I guarantee it. I wrote the year down on every single one of these lines.

No, so so they start looking at video footage and they think they have found around 8 o'clock on that night. They think they found it's like surveillance footage of people walking into Mexico from the California side into Mexico and it's a family of four and it's a guy and a girl and then a two little children. I have watched I back then watched that video over and over and paused it and started it and paused it. And it's just shadows.

It's shadows. You can't tell who it is and it's walking away. So you don't see their faces, but it looks like a husband and a wife and two little boys. And it actually is probably. It could be. I mean, like they were saying something where it's like both of the little boys had these hats on like beanies and which is what those little boys did wear all the time. What do they call them and not the, uh, Tukes?

Tukes in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. Or like not in California. Yes. Beanies here, but. Yeah. Or you know, some just kind of a little hat.

Yeah. But the thing is lots of little kids. Yeah. So it's it's that thing where it's like. But what are the chances of that same night at that same time and this happened. They look, you know, it's far away, but it's like she's age appropriate. It's all they, they fit the body types, all of it. They do.

So then the police find on, um, summer's computer in looking into like from Jen, the beginning of January searches on, do you need a passports to take children across the border into Mexico and different questions like that about taking kids there. So then they were like, okay, maybe this, they've been planning some kind of escape. And that's where this part of the narrative comes in. Yeah. Um, and then the father says in the people magazine investigates, the father talks about how, um, Joey, cause he was doing so well in business and stuff.

He ended up buying land in Belize because he had this retirement plan. He loves surfing and he loved the water. And so he had this land. He was going to build like a house on in Belize for when they were done and they just wanted to go down and, you know, live the easy life. Well, he, yeah. And he looked like the Margaritaville dude. Yes.

He's very Sammy Hagar. He's like a, he's like a young Sammy Hagar. She's just like beautiful. Like looks like she hang out the beach all the time. Totally. She has like share hair. Yeah. They're both like surfeits, chill out looking.

The kids are like sweet young things. Those little boys look like the cutest kids. And yeah, it's just like a very beautiful. It's a very Southern California family. So Southern California. Just kind of like we've, and successful. Yeah. Doing well because they've worked hard.

Yeah. Yeah. So then this idea that then seeding this concept in that they somehow were on the run or they were trying to get away from something or whatever. Then they start theorizing, okay, was the cartel involved in this water feature company where if they were exporting that somehow they got, they ran into like the wrong element exporting these water features into Mexico or internationally or something where they're just trying to theorize of like, why would you run with your whole family?

Why would you cross over into Tijuana and just disappear? Like what could be happening? Yeah. It's like, I get it. It makes sense that that's one of the things you think about. Sure. Well, and I also think that sometimes those people come up with those theories because they're trying to think, how can this family still be alive?

Right. Because the reality, the underlying creepiness is you don't, you want to go, there's got to be some other thing that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Um, on May 13th of 2010, so this is like, uh, you know, February, March, April, three months later, um, they're, they send investigators down to El Rosario, Mexico, because so a waiter sees, sees little kids, sees the birthmark and reports it that he

think this is, this is the kid because now their pictures are everywhere and it's, and it's missing family. Yeah. There's no, uh, homicide element in the, obviously in the beginning of this. It's like, have you seen this family? So it's this, and also it seems like when those pictures of like, have you seen this family, they're, it immediately puts them in that they could be criminals. Yeah.

Or there's something questionable about like, you know, they're all. How does a whole family disappear unless they're driven on their own? Unless they're, it's not like a husband and wife or one or the other. Changing their identity or whatever. It's like, yeah, they obviously. You don't usually run away with a three year old and a five year old. Right. Right. So a bunch of, they have sent seven investigators down to look into this.

But nothing, uh, nothing came of that. And then the brother, Michael starts, um, the, um, find the McFay, McStay family website. And, um, it gets a bunch of attention and they actually did, uh, uh, they featured the story on America's Most Wanted. Just saying this family has disappeared and nobody knows what's happening. Um, the problem is that the, the family finds that in their personal bank accounts, they have a hundred thousand dollars.

So they're like, why would you escape and leave behind a bunch of money? And it's not touched this whole time. It's just sitting in their bank account. I remember that amount being like, like, if they left $10,000 and didn't touch it, it'd be like, they're, you know, okay, like you're trying to make it seem like you didn't run away, but you left that hundred thousand fucking dollars. Why wouldn't you bring that if you're on the run and you're never coming back? It doesn't make sense.

It's so much money. Then, uh, they also find that Summer had, um, in her email, the family starts going through the email, uh, their personal email and finds, um, that her abusive ex was a guy named Vic Johansson. She hadn't spoken to him in five years and actually she was like the bad, that was the bad relationship she was coming out of when she met Joey and they were like, and he like turned her life around. And it was suddenly like, I believe in love again type of thing. So they find an email from that guy, they hadn't spoken in five years and the email was,

they didn't like like the tone of it or the sound of it. So suddenly they're like, where's this guy? Yeah. So they start looking into Vic Johansson and it turned out in the time that they had, uh, broken up, he'd been arrested twice, once was for threatening to kill his neighbors and claiming that he was a, um, a Marine who was trained in like killing people. And so like, I'm coming for you. He was arrested for that.

Then the other time and more recently he was arrested because he was refused to leave a bar that Joey's store was, it was next to Joe's, Joey's store and so they were like, and then they find out that, that Vic Johansson lives in an apartment two miles away from Joey in summer's old apartment. Oh, so they're like, oh, this guy's in the mix and nobody knew it or understood it. But then Vic knows that he's going to be suspect. And so he calls the police preemptively and says, I understand they're missing. I just want to let you know this is where I was.

Here's all the people that can prove it and it all proves out. So he has an alibi that seems to be solid. By August of 2010, the beginning of August of 2010, the family just starts taking all the mixed days stuff out of their house. And then they see that, so Joey's company was called Earth-inspired products. That was the custom made water features. They see that the company is for sale for a million dollars and the CEO listed is Dan Kavanaugh, the webmaster who had set up the email when the company first started.

I'm not sorry, the website. So basically, in this, in People magazine, they say that Dan Kavanaugh believed that he was one of the main reasons that this water feature company got so successful because he made sure that anytime you searched custom water features or any, he was like one of those early Google manipulators. So that Earth-inspired products, Inc. would come up first when you were searching for that. And because of that, they got all this business and he felt like he never got his fair share. And they found old IMs of Joey and Dan like fighting and Dan saying, you owe me money.

And so Joey ended up buying him a BMW. Wow. Thank you for all your service and I'm doing well and you helped me. Steven, don't get any ideas. Steven, the BMWs are too fast for you. Go-kart. And also they tracked that this webmaster kept coming to Joey and being like, lend me 50 bucks, lend me 100 bucks, lend me 200 bucks.

So that, you know, they were like really starting to look at that guy. And then he was like, I was on a surfing trip when that family could look it up. Likely story. Well, they, you know, it was the truth. But I think it's insane that he tried to fucking sell that company with himself as the CEO. Like, sure. Dude. What an idiot.

What are you doing? Red flag. And also the case is still open. Like, why would you put yourself out there? So anyway, that basically all of those leads go cold. The whole case goes cold for three years. Then on April 9th, 2013, basically because of that surveillance video. Yeah.

Which one? The border. With the family grainy from the back saying it's them. The San Diego Sheriff's Department investigators announced that the Mixte family left for Mexico voluntarily. They're like done. So they come out and they're just basically like, look, they're gone. And we don't know what happened.

Say goodbye. They just went to Mexico. Oh, shit. So frustrating for the family. It's terrible. And also, so this is April of 2013 in November of 2013. April to November. Got it.

Right. I'm there. A solid six months or so. I don't know, Matt. I mean, we could just pause it and add it up. But why would we? So it's not this part. This isn't a maths podcast.

British math. This isn't an accounting podcast. For fuck's sake. This is not a calendar podcast, clearly. On November 11th, 2013. Okay. There's a guy riding in the desert, the Mojave Desert. He's riding a motocross area.

It's your new boyfriend. It's Jimmy Buttons. He's just he wants to get back on the bike and just kind of experience the whole time. Sure. He's out there and he hits his tire, hits something weird. He goes back. No. It's a human skull.

No. Yes. He calls 911. I'm pretty sure it's the real call that was on People Magazine. Shut up. What does he say? What does he say? He just goes, yeah, I'm riding my motorcycle out here back behind the dump.

And I think I just found a human skull. Holy shit. Like he just sounds like the most bummed out motocross guy of all time. I just wanted to fucking top some wheelies. Yeah, I'm just trying to have fun like a kid because, you know, how hard left can be sometimes. And I found a skull. I saved some money and I bought this thing for myself because it brings me joy.

And it's the only thing I have that brings me joy left. And of course, death is around every corner. Sure. And we all know that. So can I get some help out of here? So I found a skull. Oh, the poor Jimmy. But now here's the thing.

Okay. Jimmy Buttons, XOXO. The San Bernardino Sheriff's Office takes over because it's up. It's the where that skull is found is up in the desert. And it's not in it. Like it's not San Diego Sheriff's Office anymore. It's a different place. And so San Bernardino is two separate counties.

It's two different places. So San Bernardino is like, yeah, we got this. Everybody else came back in. Yeah. You remember San Diego how you were like, no, they walked away. They walked into San Bernardino is like, uh, yeah. They're like, so we're on this and they send forensic investigators to the to the site, including an anthropologist.

Nice. And they work all night and into the morning. And then the next day, November 15th, San Bernardino County Sheriff, John McMahon identifies the bodies found as Joseph, Summer, Joseph, and Johnny mixed day. The whole fucking family's been murdered. How did they know it was them and they were digging? Because they, the, but lots of bones were broken, but they had the dental records and the dental records identified everybody.

But they wouldn't know to check the dental records until they knew what to check them against. Yeah. Because there's two adult bodies and two child bodies and two separate graves. Oh, so tell me what happened. So awful. Okay. So the family's house has been sold. There's a new family living in the house.

So the San Bernardino County Sheriff's want to go back in, but then they're like, anything that could have been in here that could have possibly been a clue is gone. But the Azuzu trooper is still in, I guess, somehow in police custody. So they go back and they fucking pull every ounce of forensic evidence that they can out of it. And what they find is there is trace evidence of Joey's business partner, Chase Merritt, in the fucking Azuzu trooper. So they start to look into Chase Merritt's, Chase, Chase Merritt's merits. And his de-merit turns out he's an ex-con with a mile long rap sheet.

Oh, Chase, you've been chased down. That's right. So many words that are other words. Your chase has come to an, I don't know, there's something there. So he had served time for burglary grand theft, receiving stolen property, and he also had a gambling problem. So as Joey's company was getting more and more successful, he was borrowing larger and larger sums of money from Joey.

And by 2010, Chase Merritt owed Joey over $30,000. Holy shit. Yes. And when Summer found out that amount that he owed, she was like, what the fuck are you doing? Like that you, that's too much money to lend somebody and that's crazy. And I think he, I think Joey was in that position where he had all the success and all this like money and everything was going great. So all the people that came and were like, yeah, well, you owe me because he'd be like,

sure, here, how much do you need? And was really generous and just wanted everyone to be like happy like he was. And it was like, he's grateful for everything he has. And so he's making sure he's paying it for paying it to people who helped him get there. Right, exactly. And Chase Merritt's there going, well, I'm your, I'm your business partner and I'm your guy. And I just have this little, please hold me over for a little while. I just need $10,000.

So basically as they continue to look in, they know Summer was really upset about that amount. She wanted to talk about it. Like that it was like a real issue. Then they look at Chase Merritt's phone records. And on the night the Mixtape family went missing, his cell phone was shown being used right near where the bodies were found. And they found out that Merritt's sister lived close to that location as well. They had grown up.

It was, I think, near Victorville. It was like Mojave Desert somewhere. Basically that's where he knew the area very well. Oh, why didn't they know that before? I know. They didn't look into it, I guess. Because they were like, oh, they were there in Mexico. Everything, that's fine.

So then I like to think forensic accountants found this out, but I don't know who did. I bet they did. It was some super exciting, wonderfully dressed, chic, hot, exciting. So cool. Forensic accountants find that Chase Merritt had written a company check for the amount of $21,000 after the Mixtase went missing, which is just fucking stupid. Yeah. So I would think that would be the last straw, but the chronology could be wrong. So any number of those things could have been the last straw.

Finding out that his sister lived nearby, all those things. But basically they're like, oh, yeah, OK. So on November 7, 2014, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Investigators announced that they have arrested Charles Chase Merritt, and he's charged with four counts of murder in the Mixtase slangs. OK, so prosecutors allege Chase Merritt has a gambling problem. He killed the family for financial gain, and basically he wrote checks totally more than $21,000 on Joseph Mixtase business account in the days after the family was killed. Then he went on a gambling spree at nearby casinos.

Which one, Merongo? I bet it was Merongo. Go, go, Merongo. Don't do it. Where, of course, he lost thousands of dollars. Dude, on what? What are the gambling? You know, fucking like. My buffalo machine? High stakes buffalo machine.

High stakes buffalo and fucking Wheel of Fortune machine. It's just like that thing of like anything else where you're like, so you, you couldn't stop playing fucking 21, so you killed four people. Including two little babies. Babies. Like the cutest, yeah. So. What a monster.

On January 30, 2015, Chase Merritt requests to represent himself. Always a good son. Great idea. You're fucking saying his shit. He said he only had six to eight months to live that he couldn't afford an attorney and he had to represent himself. So this turns out is very sad for him. I hate him so much. So the trial is delayed because he keeps on firing these attorneys and he tries to represent

represent himself and I'm sure he couldn't do it. February 2016, he had already gone through five attorneys. Shit. July 2017, his trial is tentatively set for September 25, 2017. A month later, a San Bernardino County Superior Court judge sets a November 13, 2017 trial date. November 13, 2017, the trial is waived. Wait, that's like a couple months ago. Until February 23rd, the trial starts tomorrow.

The trial of Chase Merritt. Shut your face. Killed the Mixte family starts tomorrow. If they don't waive it again. Holy shit. Yeah. Let's go to it. Dude.

The cool thing about the way People Magazine investigates set up that thing was I was like, oh, it's totally that ex-boyfriend. Clearly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you go, it's totally the web master. Well, I'm like that too. It's anything I want. It's them.

It's them. Like, it's the next person. But within that world, the police had so much work to do and so many people to like peel away. Yeah. The really awful thing though is this family, their Joey Mixte had electrical cord around his neck, but the whole family was bludgeoned to death. Oh my god.

And they found the, it's, you know, the sledgehammer where the bodies were buried. How did he do it? Right? And like, they, he, whoever did this, and if it was him or somebody else, sledgehammer to death of family. Like it's, it's a monster among us. It's so horrifying. Oh my god.

Yeah. It's just like, I think what always bothered me, and I followed this case obviously not until recently because I didn't know that was going on. But I think once I found out that their bodies were found, I was like, I can't listen anymore because you'd been hearing so much about it. Yes. Like I knew what happened. Okay, I'm done.

But I've always pictured, you know, their house and the two bowls of popcorn, like little kid popcorn on the couch. They had just sat their kids down so they could watch something on TV with some popcorn. And the theory is. So that the parents could have a conversation with Chase. With the business partner to say, Hey, you can't, this can't happen anymore. We're not doing this anymore. And he fucking lost it.

And he, or he was like, Oh, we should all go to a, let's all go out to dinner or let's all, like something to get everybody together in the car. Because he, yeah. There was like, it didn't happen in the house because there's no blood. There's nothing. Yeah, they don't. And the defense attorneys in the beginning were trying to say that the prosecution is trying to say that the, that that's the house is where the, like the initial attack took

place and because there's not a drop of blood there, that can't, it must be wrong or whatever. When obviously there's, because there was no broken glass, there was no doors were broken. There was no forced entry. There was no sign of a struggle. They left of their own accord with the business partner slash friend that they thought everything was fine. They trusted. Yes.

So what do you, where did they don't know where the, where the murder took place? But I think if he, I think it took place out in the desert. I think he got them into the car and then drove them against their will. Because, yeah, yeah, that makes sense that like, but then, yeah, but then you wonder like if the dad had then the rope around his neck because like he probably would have fought if this dude like brought out a gun and was like, you're coming with me. So he subdued him somehow. Yeah.

I mean, because I think it's that thing and all the people that are suspect, it's all these people that are your good friend, your business partner, the person you talk to every single day. So clearly it's someone couldn't be more on the inside that turned. And the idea that this guy has like a rap sheet a mile long where clearly he doesn't have a huge problem with breaking him along, doing what he needs to do to get his. Right. I don't know. It's, I mean, it's fascinating.

And also just at the beginning, and that was, you know, years, years ago, he was like, oh, I only have six months to live. Or it's like, sorry, what? Like he said he had like what, cancer or some shit? I thought he like at first his lawyers were like, yeah, he's very unwell. And then he fires the lawyers and is like, I'm sick. I'm just going to represent myself. Like it's just that whole psychopath thing of like, this is about me and how hard the

struggles of my life. Yeah. And nobody else matters or counts. So crazy. So we'll have to keep our eyes peeled and for sure. See what happens in that case. Fuck man. I know.

That was good, Karen. Thank you. Well, I'm just a messenger. You're just a messenger. I don't want to take credit for the worst fucking story. You don't want to try credit for people magazine, investigates, but. But I will, because man, that's a good show. Shit.

Well, that's creepy. I also printed up a picture of the leaves. That was when I was trying to print last week or the week we did that. Oh, no. It's just reminding you about 2010. Never forget about 2010. Um, well, shit. Thank you for sharing that.

Of course. Do you have a, to wrap up the show, do you have some kind of a hooray? I do have one. Okay. You go first. Mine's stupid. I'll go first. Okay.

And the other night I couldn't sleep. I was lying in bed thinking about the hometown murders and how crazy they've become. And I thought of another one that I want people to send in. So this is just a random, I would, I want to hear this now. Okay. Okay. This is my hooray. Great.

I want people to send me, not me. I want people to send us at my favorite murder at Gmail. Now, stories of how they found out after like grandpa died, we went through the fucking basement. Yes. And that's how we learned. So there's this article and advice that I recently reread called, My Grandma, They're the Poisoner by John Reed that I say everyone needs to read. But like one of those, yeah, we realized my grandma might be poisoning all of us,

but we just acted like it was normal and like don't eat grandma's food. But it's a really great article. What the fuck? Yeah. So it's one of those what the fucks. How did we not know? You know, we found out this after I would want those, those are our new hometowns that I want. Please.

Right. And if anything involves an attic. An attic. We were going through a thing and we found out. Yes. Dot, dot, dot. And a trunk, microfiche, whatever it is, bottom drawers. Yeah.

Even if it's like, and it doesn't have to be like murder. I'm just talking about like weird shit, like we didn't realize this about my mom and tell or whatever the fuck. Yes. Yeah. That's great. I love that. I want those.

That's a great idea. Okay. I was going to say this, my hooray for this week is these fucking kids from that high school in Florida who are standing up and fucking taking the mic away from these inept fucking leaders of this country and the rotten shitty toxic adults that are so fucking greedy that they don't care about human life anymore and they are taking it back. I am so proud that the way they're handling themselves. And I just want to say to all these kids that are watching other kids be this empowered and

just know this is the world needs you so bad right now because these adults have gone insane and you are the voice of reason and anyone trying to tell you, you, you, you can't talk or you're being overemotional, you don't have to listen to any of those old fucks at all. And you can do, you're not overemotional, your opinion matters more than other people's because once you stand on the other side of a fucking AR 15 and almost die in your high school, you get to say what you think about gun control and your opinion matters and you have to, you don't be stopped by fucking closed doors of senators and governors. Don't be stopped by internet trolls.

Don't fucking fall for any of that shit and do what you know is right because those old fucks are, they're locked up in greed and they're locked up in fucking shitty, like they don't even know what they're, they've gone insane truly and we need you so badly right now. So congratulations and I'm so sorry, but also fuck yet like rise up children. Yes, and I, and even, even the people who, the teenagers who you haven't had a shooting at your school yet, to me, the thought, you know, I graduated the year before Columbine and now the thought of going to high school knowing every fucking day that that could happen is terrifying to me and I'm not in high school.

So everyone who's in high school and in college and in these, in these situations, like why, why, why is the world, the words school shooting so normal? It shouldn't be. It's all these kids who need to fucking do something and you're totally right and it's not just the fucking people, it's the adults as someone who's 37, we stop giving a shit and we go fucking dead in the brain and we don't know what we're, what to do. Yes. So you, we need you so badly.

It's your fucking future. We support you. I saw something today that was like schools are fucking threatening to, to, um, suspend students. Yeah. I got suspended in high school. Guess what? It doesn't fucking matter.

Not only does it not matter, but guess what? If you get shot by a fucking AR-15 because some fucking alt-right racist piece of shit runs through your school trying to shoot people, it won't matter suspended or not. This is, we are at a really crucial time where these, what these kids are doing, you're standing up and going, no fucking more because we almost died. They're not spoiled little activist children. They're not like these pieces of shit that are trying to talk shit about them. They, they are people who, A, survived and B, now have a clarity that you can only get

when you fucking almost get killed where you step forward and go, I know what matters. I know it doesn't matter. And I'm about to tell you something. And these old men that run this country, they're so obsessed with being in a fucking yacht club that they don't give a shit about human life. That generation is dying off. I mean, I can't imagine how fucking scared the NRA is that they're coming after them. I am so fucked.

We are fucking ruining for you. We're behind you. And also you're 17. A lot of you are 17 or up in that area. In one year, you can start fucking changing everything. And you will. In the meantime, your shit's going to be expunged. So just fucking get out there and get arrested.

And also, and keep coding on social media. Keep doing the things that you know how to do that they don't know how to do, which is communicate on social media. There was that brilliant thing where people started to try to accuse one of those survivors of being a crisis actor. And he fucking came back on Wolf Blitzer and was like, if any of you saw me in our high school productions of Fiddler on the Roof, you would know I am not a crisis actor.

It was like, how genius are these? They're all trained by TV. They're all trained by social media. They know how to do this thing. They don't need fucking old people telling them what to do anymore. And they don't need pieces of shit like school people going, oh, you'll get suspended. Hey, guess what? We're tired.

They're saying we're tired of dying. My sister has lived on the front lines of school shooting culture since it started. And she as a teacher, when people are saying teachers should walk out, teachers should be armed, teachers. Right. My sister goes, how come we have to fucking do everything? This is both like teachers aren't going to be armed. This is a school that what we need is less guns, not more.

Right. That the fantasy of arming everybody to the teeth. Did you see that thing online where they showed a picture of moments before Ronald Reagan got shot and there's just all these arrows to all the CIA going, good guy with a gun, good guy with a gun, good guy with a gun. And he still got fucking shot. He was surrounded on every side. So drop the fantasy that that arming everybody is the answer and start looking at the fact

that this country has too many fucking guns. Why am I saying anything? Let the children listen to them. We're not. And the thing too, and I've gotten in a loud fight with my mom and a fucking fancy pizza restaurant about this is we're not trying to take away fucking this guy, Eric's fucking gun, his his fucking 22. Have it. Fine.

Right. Basic fucking regulations, especially on automatic fucking rifles and automatic weapons and fucking, you know, army grade fucking assault assault weapons. It's just basic fucking regulations in the same way drivers license do in the same way you and I would have to fucking have to be wanted to get an abortion or wanted to get birth control. Yeah. Like we, you know, like what the fuck is the difference?

Yeah. And it's fine. The difference is it's a big, big money. Lots of money. You've been fucking brainwashed. Yes. And if you're not on the side of fucking protecting children, then you're on the wrong side and you need to fucking know that.

Yes. And that idea, the threat of their coming for our guns is like an NRA based fantasy of this government takeover. Like your boys in office, like that you can let go of, they were saying if we just got rid of 100,000 guns, there would still be 300,000 in the mix. Like this is a it's a crisis. It's a fucking crisis. It's a real crisis.

I've been worrying about it and worrying about it and to see fucking teenagers actually doing something about it is, it's, it's overwhelming to me to see it happening and someone doing something about it. And I, and all, all we can do is say that we support it 100%. Please keep, please keep going and please know that you, the fight that, and they know, none of this needs to be said to them. Right. That's the best part.

But we're talking also about, you know, not teenagers who support it as well. Exactly. What we can do is, is just like, get behind it. As we said, as James Patterson said, murder is forever. You fucking lose your 14 year old in a school shooting, the fucking end, look around your house, look around your family and say, who am I willing to lose so that somebody else can have a gun? Because I bet you that answer is fucking nobody.

But, but it's totally fine for these other families to lose babies, to lose children in the hallway of their high school. That is bullshit. We need to start golden ruling some shit in this country. We need to take back this like, I got mine too bad for your family. Like, and guess what? These kids are the ones that are going to do it. And it's fucking electrifying.

I'm in awe. I'm in fucking awe of these kids. God bless. God bless them. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Goodbye.

Elvis, you want cookie? Good boy. Good boy.