My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 119 - Fingers Everywhere

Episode Date: May 3, 2018

Karen and Georgia cover the Lipstick Killer and the Lindbergh Baby kidnapping.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Oh, hello and welcome. Hi, welcome. Are you saying that to me? I'm reiterating. Oh, no, because welcome to you. Welcome to you, Karen. Thank you. Everyone to my favorite murder, the podcast. This is the podcast where we talk about true crime, you know, and everything else under the sun. Everything we can even imagine. Oh my God, we're getting into a lot of religious stuff lately. Spirituality. I'm more spiritual than religious. I'm not religious

but I'm more spiritual. No, but I hear people saying that on dates behind me at restaurants all the time and I just want to punch them in the face. I love to sit behind a date where they were like, I am strictly religious and I think spirituality is wrong. Yeah, I'm here for the rules and the books and I don't care about the soul or the feeling. I would be relieved to hear that in LA. You'll never hear that in LA. I witness, I feel like in the LA, in LA, I witness so many tinder dates or like coffee meetups and I get, I get so involved. Oh, like how? Well, I'm a humongous eavesdropper. Totally. I'll fucking eavesdrop on anybody. Me too. Well, how can you not? Like, it's not eavesdropping. It's listening to the conversation going on. That is going on way

too loudly. Always, because it's a city full of actors and everybody thinks they should be heard. Right. But then they're talking about stuff that they think is unique and interesting. Like us, for example, in this podcast right now. Like true crime. Why talk about it if you're not going to record it? Like less murder. You know what makes me, it's because I have a problem with vulnerability. So when two people are sitting in front of each other, trying to present themselves as here's my most interesting, it makes me want to vomit into the closest garbage can for seven hours. I'm sorry. The garbage can, because there's also a composting can and there's also a recycling and there's also the coffee place I go to has a an area to put your like coffee sleeve in to

recycle the sleeve. Oh, okay. Which I think has to be definitely against health codes. But I do it anyways. Oh, well, my first of all, my vomit would definitely go into composting. Sure. Because that's just going to churn up all the plastic bottles. The acid is going to break down all of those egg shells because every place you go into here has three bins and you sit there and stare at them. And I'm going on a tirade. Go on three bins, 17 actors. Everybody's trying to hook up. Yeah. And yeah. And then if you want to reuse a coffee sleeve, wait, no, is that voluntary or they just going to reuse those coffee sleeves and you don't know about it as the person buying what you think is a new coffee with a new sleeve? I bet I bet you think it's new and it's not new.

You think that's true with their dirty fingers all over that beat. No, I'd rather burn my fingers. Your fingers are where you put, you put your fingers everywhere. I put my fingers everywhere. Do you know? Do you know? Yeah. You know that about me. I'm confronting you. That's how I meant that sentence. God damn you. You've been on tour with me. I meant to say stop putting your fingers everywhere. Oh, shit. Okay. All right. Speaking of which, and I'm sorry for the segue. Someone started a hashtag hot for holes and it is wrong. It's filthy. It is. It's making us look bad. Say what you think though. The funniest thing I've ever seen. Hot for holes is obviously our love of our lives. Paul holes. Paul holes. The criminologist who

solved the Golden State killer among many people. But you know, he would defer. Oh, no. Oh, no, no. I didn't do anything. You know, anyway, someone made like a, it looks like a science project poster board thing of just photos of him cut out photos of him all over it. I should. I believe I can find that under the hashtag hot for holes. I bet you fucking can. He's wearing all different kinds of Oakley blades and all different sun settings. But someone else made a really good point. They posted a photo of him. They saw him in an old episodes of like forensic files and said, he's aged well because he doesn't look so hot as a young man and you. Bullshit. I agree. He looked, I would have, I would have fucking punched his pukashell wearing face in the fucking face.

Like, he just didn't look that hot. You're not into early Paul holes. No, I'm in the, I'm in the later stages. Like he looks like he's been hanging out on what's the island with the tequila with the guy sings in Hawaii. No, no. Margaritaville. Yes. No, no, no. The one with Steven's Island, Margaritaville. Steven's Island. You know, the one with the Cabo. Yes. I don't think that's an island. We got to go and tour to Mexico. Edit this out. Yes. He definitely has vacationed along Baja California and like the kind of pre skin cancer look. Now that he's got like withered a little, but here I have to say, first of all, I was talking to my sister on the phone this morning and she called Paul holes, the Indiana Jones of criminology and she got, I couldn't stop laughing

and she goes, I'm not kidding. I like wrote, I love you on my eyelids as I was watching this interview. Cause he gave, he gave some hour long interview on KTVU, which is our channel to our home station. No way. Which we grew up watching. There's only one too. Um, and so she called me this morning to give me like the basically the low down. So that is the best description of anyone I've ever heard in my life. Am I right? Yes. Laura, Laura, Laura. Also, it's funny because Laura is not interested in true crime whatsoever. She's just taking this ride with us. Love it. But so she like gets into it cause she knows we go crazy. My sister too. I don't think she gives two shits, but she's like happy that, that I'm finally getting my need for attention met.

So she doesn't have to deal with we really are guys anymore. Yeah. Have you ever wanted more attention in your life? Oh my God. Um, anyway, salute to Paul holes. Yeah. Speaking of what, I don't know, pick one DNA. Yeah. Go DNA. Okay. So we're, so Stephen just sent us as we walked in to class. That's what I'm calling this today. Um, a link of, so people are losing their ship because it comes out that they found the golden state killer by, uh, getting the deep familial DNA off some fucking person that was like, I want to know what race I am, you know, like from fucking wherever. Just, just tell yourself you're Dutch Spanish. Yeah. Whatever you think you are, I learned this by submitting my DNA to 23 and me, you're whatever you think you are. Oh, okay.

I'm so fucking Eastern European Jewish that I am basically in bread. Like there's nothing else about me. Your tribe kept it tight. I was so bummed because I was like, Oh, I have, you know, my feeling is dark hair. Maybe we are a little bit something cool. No, I mean, not that it's not cool, but just like a little mix. You guys did a great job though, as a tribe. Thank you. You kept it alive. Uh-huh. You kept that hair good. Yep. Great features kept it in the family. Yeah. There's just a hundred percent. So some fucking person was like, I'm blaming to be in bread. What else is there? Uh, there, so he, so someone was like, what do you, what am I, and they sent their DNA and yeah, to a half rate fucking company that didn't have the protection

that 23 and me has and all these other in ancestry.com has that are like, we won't give you a fucking DNA away. Well, they actually said though, I read an article where they had in their disclaimer, it said, um, if you were afraid you may have committed a crime or you don't want to be searched, like we, we do not keep these DNA profiles out of that. So don't submit your, and like that that's always been their customer service thing. It really annoyed me that like last week, so I took, I took myself off Twitter because I just couldn't handle it anymore. But so the last one I saw was like, uh, you know, what's, what does this mean for our public safety, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, it wasn't a big fucking company. If it's not like a big deal,

it's not everyone calm, fucking down everyone. Let's talk about this murderer and what he did instead. That'd be great. So, but that's, they're going to run Zodiacs. Stephen told us DNA through this company. Yeah. That'll be fine. No, they, I saw that article. They said they aren't saying what company they're running it through. Oh good. Okay. Cause I was like, someone's going to kill them. Some old man is about to kill himself tonight. Right. When he sees that. Well, let's keep our eye out for any, uh, how old would he be now in his late nineties? Um, I mean, that would be exciting. It would be very cool. I, I agree with the people who are worried about there have to be restrictions or there has to be privacy. If you are spitting

on a piece of cotton and sending it to some company, cause you want to find out just how Dutch you are. Fuck you. You're on it. You're, then you're in the mix. You're in the game. It's too late. You're done. And also, you know, like if they, they have to have probable cause, you know, our boy Paul holes lined it up so that it's like this thing, if they were going to do it and get the answer from a certain, in a certain way. And I understand how outsiders don't trust this. I trust Paul holes. He did it by the book cause they don't want it to fall apart in court. Well, you know, Sally. Yeah, exactly. And you know, Sally hole or Sally holes. Oh my God. Who's Sally? I was going to say that, you know, Sally and HR at whatever fucking DNA company who

like Paul holes came up to her and was like, I'm going to tell you why you're going to do this. Like I need this. And she was just like, there was no chance. And then she wrote Mrs. Sally holes over and over again. That's what I was going to say. My favorite. My favorite thing is so many people are now writing dirty jokes. Like I got one the other day where I was like, well, I thought I got, I thought I was being trolled. Where it was like, I'd like to investigate some of these holes where I'm like, Oh, I get it. People are really experimenting with their blue comedy with their, with this specific combination of nouns. Well, all we need to do is add, add them to Karen's list of men she loves with last names that are. Nouns. Nouns. Yeah.

It's just we've got Jimmy Buttons. Buttons. We've got Paul Onions. Onions. Now we've got Mr. Holes. There's one other one. Someone made a really great like jackets. But jackets was a bad guy. Oh, yeah. I don't love that guy. Okay. Well, he was one of yours. He's one of yours. He is one of characters in my, in my universe, but he's not canon. Oh, what I was going to talk about is yesterday in Los Angeles, we had a high speed chase. Right. I didn't see that with a Winnebago. And it was explain that to me. How high speed does this like, what is high speed definition? Cause well, think about it in LA, you can't fucking get anywhere over 35 miles an hour. So there was a Winnebago going 55 up. I think it did a 5134 170 transition. Oh, you can't do that

more than 10 miles an hour the whole time. Well, this thing was flying up the freeway. I saw Brandy Posey, our friend from the great podcast, Lady to Lady, she tweeted it. We've got a live one and then posted the link and I was at the mall and I pulled out my earbuds, sat down and watched feed at the mall because I was like, what? I did not know you were that kind of girl. I love a, I love a high speed chase. They worry me. I don't like them. They worry me. They're worrisome. That's part of what I love. Like I can't take my eyes off it. And Stephen and I were just talking about there, there, they happen in LA a lot because we've got a lot of freeways and a lot of action, but it turned out. So my friend Dan Telfer was also

a comic. So he's, I like him on Twitter. He's hilarious. He's a great writer. He's to work on at midnight and he's just cool and he's listened to us from the beginning. Thank you, Dan. And, and supported. So anyway, he got in. What if he was unsupportive? He's listened to us highly critical most of what we do. Hates us. No, he, he, he was in mine and Brandy's conversation and then at one point sent the follow up article about what had happened and it's very dark because it's this guy who was a registered sex offender, grabbing sex with children under the age of 14. And he was in that Winnebago with his three year old son and 11 month old daughter. They had been, they were from, I want to say they were from Washington state or Oregon state and they were

down in San Diego, I believe, and there and something happened and he took off with the kids and he was on the phone with his mother and his wife the whole time. And he ended up getting arrested. The kids are safe. He's a mother and a wife. That's not fair. I mean, some people, it's just about charisma. I think it's like confidence. If you just go in this situation, you're like, I'm not the worst person. That's also a sex offender. Yeah. And you're just like, hey, and of course, if you triangulate and you neg people, you can get anyone you want. People believe what you put out there. So it's like, oh, Jesus, it's about the energy. And again, it's about spirituality over religion at all times. Oh, sorry. Can I do a sidebar? Absolutely.

From that story, I had just gotten a coffee at Starbucks in the mall. And as I was ordering my coffee, the girl I was talking to, I saw her writing Starbucks, they write your order on the on the dirty sleeve. Can I say before you say anything, I know the other side of the story because she posted it on Facebook. Oh, that's it. Then I was going to tell you the other side of the story because my friend Vicki, as I was shopping, sent me what she posted. Oh, okay. So you're in. Okay. So you're in Starbucks. You see it writing a thing down on the dirty. I see her and I'm like giving my order, which is a little bit confusing. What is it? It's a double tall one pump mocha. Okay. So it's as people are always like, what, but it's like they put too much double

if it's that small, they put too much double. You want it not that big because you don't have that milk and you want only one pump of mocha, please. Just a nice suggestion of not don't drown me. Yeah. So she's writing it down, but I see that she does all the, you know, M and one and all. And then I see her write SSD. Then she does a weird thing and then throws it away. And I was about to go, wait, were you going to and I was going to do the funny confrontation. Yeah. But then she, we, I don't know, something else happened. There's, it was, there's a lot happening. Yeah. So I didn't confront her. I thought it'd be funny, but there's a bunch of people in line, whatever. Then, so in her new one, she just rewrites the order again and sends it. Then the order goes

through her boss, I'm standing over there waiting. And then her, her boss or the person making it, and I found it was a boss after goes, do you want cream on this? And I said, no, thanks. At which she, which the person who was ringing me up already asked. And I said, no, but she didn't remember to put it on the second sleeve. So then she gets yelled at for not putting it on the sleeve. And I was about to go again about to, but didn't do it. I was about to go, Oh, no, she asked me. I just, she, you know, like she did ask me that. But then I was like, I can't get involved. Then high speed chase. I'm drawn away. Then my friend, Vicki Ernst, who lives in New York, because that was the funniest part and was far away from me. She said, she sends me a text that goes,

I don't understand what your life is now. And then it's the Facebook post from Rachel. What does it say? She says, I normally don't get rattled when a celebrity comes to Starbucks, but it's LA and it happens. No brag. No brag. No brag. Man, not reading this on stupid, but she basically said, I lost my mind on the inside. My hands were shaking. That's not true. I didn't see any handshaking. I was so nervous. Tried to sneak an SSD GM on the cup, but couldn't. Worst of all, my supervisor chastised me in front of embarrassment level 10,000. Well, that was my Tuesday. Maybe next time I'll be cooler. Rachel, you couldn't have been cooler.

There was no indication on your face or anywhere that you knew who, who I was or anything to the point where when I saw you starting to write SSD, I didn't want to be the asshole. It was like, are you writing my thing? So I just didn't say anything. That's how cool you were. So don't worry about it. You'll be able to handle it. Yeah. When next time, just give Karen a free coffee and it'll be fine. Next, I always appreciate people are just like, like I'm not reacting to you whatsoever. But and thank you for calling me a celebrity. What a joy, Rachel. What a joy between that and the high speed chase. Fuck. I mean, I had a power day at the mall. Power day. Power day. Can I say, can I do our power,

a couple power tour quickies? Please. So we're leaving for fucking Europe on Saturday. I'm losing my mind. I'm so stressed out. It's very stressful. I cannot wait to be on that plane. I can't wait to be in the airport. Like that's how excited I am about it. I can't wait to be in a fucking germ-ridden, disgusting fucking airport. That's how fucking stoked I am. It's going to be so fun. I'm trying to, I'm trying to get all my pre-stress out now. So we can just have the best time. Me too. It's going to be great. Okay, there's Oslo, you guys, May 9th. We need to see you there if you want to come. I don't know. Come if you want. I'm not trying to be like, you have to come. What's the thing that would make some like a Norwegian, you know, we're going to be giving away

free smelt. Every cocktail comes with a free shot of smelt. Some eggs. You can have herring, as much herring, you can bring it, and you can have it. Then we just lose half the ticket sales just now. They all get returned. They're like, fuck you, you racist asshole. Amsterdam, those are the two shows that aren't sold out. So Amsterdam on the 16th, that's going to be a good show because we're going to have had two days to chill the fuck out. So like we're going to be on point. That's right. You know what I mean? Like we're going to have some fucking stories about tulips and buildings and, you know, houses. And getting so stoned that we laid on the ground. Right. Just kidding. And then for our tour, for the fall tour coming up in the US, it's

fucking like almost completely sold out except for Portland on October 18th. It's my sister's birthday. Come celebrate my sister's birthday. Important. She won't be there. Lee. And then Los Angeles. Okay, here's the thing. We're doing a show on Halloween at the Microsoft Theater, and it's kind of like our biggest deal show we've ever done because it's the most seats we've ever had. And then they can also keep opening up the theater so we can sell out more tickets. It's kind of a big, scary deal. And I think our dude said that it's going to be like the biggest live show podcast ever and ever. So that's scary and big. We want to make sure people come. They've already opened up one wing. The biggest live podcast ever, Karen. There's going to be

so much sitting. There's going to be a lot of, I hope, costumes. You and I need to figure out what the fuck we're going to go as. It's Halloween. Someone made a really good point of that like, okay, but parents can't go now because it's Halloween. Just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. So just like, if your kids are young enough, they won't even remember Halloween. It's fine. I mean, I have friends, my friend Paul Danky, when I told him about it and he was like, will you put me on that list? I was like, of course. And I'm like, but you have two young daughters and he goes, I don't give a shit. That's what I'm looking for in a person. Those are our people. Yeah. Absolutely. So fucking Halloween in Los Angeles,

it's going to be at LA Live, like at the Microsoft Theater where we had, we just saw. Shenyang. Shenyang. It's going to be, we'll meet you at the yard house or we'll meet you at fucking, what, is there a fucking Margaritaville there? I don't know. Maybe there will be by then. We'll meet you there. It's going to be fun. It's going to be crazy. And then Atlanta on November 9th, that's not sold out either. So that's an added show. Okay. Yeah. You have six months to sell that show out. It's almost sold out. So get your fucking tickets. And also just thanks everybody. We know that this ticket thing has been crazy and some people have

been, you know, there's been a lot of feelings and there's been a lot of fits and starts. We want you to know we are so thrilled that you care. And it means the world to us. We go out to all these cities and it's a lot of cities for us. I know it's not enough, but it is a lot of cities for us. And the idea that you, that so many people want to come and watch us do this bullshit is very fun. And we really, really are grateful for all that you go through. We're very lucky. We can't believe it. Also, um, if you're in the fan call, when we leave for Europe next week, we're going to start posting exclusive videos from the tour. We cannot promise quality. No, no, no, but we will, we will make them. I think maybe that part of the allure will be

we are going to look horrible. It's going to be shot badly, but you're going to see Europe through the lens of our experience. It's going to be real. And we want to bring you with us in the, uh, you know, low-fi way that we do everything. It'll be, it'll be a learning curve for everyone. That's right. It will be fun. If you're a part of the fan cult, look out for those videos. Yeah, I think it's, we will try to have fun with it. And if you're not, you can go to my favorite murder.com and join and you get free shit with it. It's cool. That's right. Okay. Um, I was just going to say a quick corrections corner. Oh, great. I made fun of the posting that was on next, the next door app. Lots of responses about the next, hilarious. I mean, there is so much

crazy, hilarious stuff on there. People posted some really funny stuff. I made fun of somebody for posting raccoon in the daytime. We immediately got a response. Again, I'm going to get better about writing people's names down, but day of, oh, for a second, I thought Stephen was holding up a cue card that gave me the person's name. Somebody immediately responded. If you see a raccoon in the day, they probably have rabies. And then, and then I will go ahead and say, call the non-emergency police number, not 911. No, do not call 911 if you see a day raccoon, but don't approach, do not approach a day raccoon. You almost gave people rabies, Karen. I, if you got rabies, we want to hear about it. It's like Maury Povich. Do you have rabies and

your boyfriend cheated on you? Eva, if they're in the fan cult, is there a forum of what we've done, how we've done you wrong? Yes. We want to, we want to know. I think that does exist, actually. Does it? Oh, shit. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, HelloFresh has you covered. HelloFresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. HelloFresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy HelloFresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes, and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be

my month for HelloFresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much. I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and HelloFresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast Against the Odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children

in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. I think that's all my current business. I got nothing. Let's forget the fuck out of here. I got my hair dyed. I'm so excited. I got my hair dyed days before we leave on this trip so that I won't have gray roots during.

It looks great. I thank you. I finally got the timing down. It's really hard. I get gray roots like every three weeks. So you have, I have to like be on it. That sucks. I don't know. I don't know how to. It wasn't a rich area. Good thing we're now being sponsored actually literally by a hair like a hair color company. I know. I'm fucking stoked. This is not a commercial. There's, see how there's no music behind it? This is not a commercial. And we're not saying the name. No. And we were, no, this isn't free.

Steven, who goes first? Well, last week was the golden state killer. Oh, then the week before Karen went first. Okay. All right. I want to do over. You want me to go first? I want to go first. You go first. Okay, great. All right. Let me take a sip of my canned rosé. Is that what that is? It's a fucking canned rosé. I would have thought that was a die cook. So I don't have my glasses on. You can be a secret alcoholic this way. I love it. All right. How is that canned rosé? It's all right. They're not paying us.

So I'm not going to tell you what it is. Perfect. You can get it at Trader Joe's. All right. This is one that I hope you didn't do at a live show. Well, let's find out. This is the lipstick killer William Hirons. Hirons. What's that face? I'm trying to remember. I don't think you did. Okay, great. She answers her own question. Okay, great. It's exactly how I wanted to. You did a lip-bitey thing. It looked like I have something bad to tell you. But here's how I can't tell anymore because we've gone to a bunch of different cities.

Yeah, here it is. And we've looked up all these people and we've researched these people and then chosen not to do them or whatever. Yeah. So we didn't do it. Yeah, I don't think we did it. Okay, cool. And then there was a time before Stephen was with us, that we did a couple of Chicago shows. So I can't ask Stephen because he wouldn't know. I don't fuck it. Fuck it all. Once our fucking biography comes out, then we'll... Well, and also William Hirons is super famous. Is that the correct pronunciation? Yeah, Hirons. I've heard of him.

And you've seen a million photos of this too. Okay. He looks... The old photos of him, he looks scary and you're like, oh, that guy's a murderer because you've seen his photo a million times? Oh, is he? We don't know. Let's find out. Here we go. Great. All right. So the lipstick murders started in Chicago just after the end of World War II. So World War II is over. Everyone's fucking stoked. It's like great time in America. All this bullshit. So the first murder took place on... So we're at June 5th, 1945. 43-year-old Josephine Ross is found dead in her apartment by her daughter.

Her apartment's close to Wrigley Field in Chicago, obviously. Josephine had been repeatedly stabbed and then her body had been washed by the killer and all her wounds, this is fucking weird, had been covered with tape. No. Each of her stab wounds. So if someone was like, oh fuck, washes her. Like that sounds like some serial killer shit, right? Yes. Washes her, covers each wound with tape, and then places her back into bed.

Her head had also been wrapped with one of her skirts. Almost like, can't look at your face time. But this is a time when they didn't have, you know, criminal profiling or like, serial killer wasn't even a term yet. Right. So she had been washed, but the investigators still found dark hair clutched in her hand. Like she had ripped his fucking hair out of his head as he attacked her. The blood spatter department, it had been ransacked, but nothing was missing.

And police found no fingerprints and no obvious motive. And they assumed that she had surprised an intruder, but nothing had been stolen. So I don't know about that. Josephine's murder at the time didn't even make front pages, the front page news. And at the time, there were five big Chicago papers led by the Chicago Tribune. And they all competed for circulation, especially post war when less shit was going on. But it didn't even make the front page. About six months later on December, I know, right?

Yeah. That's super crazy. Also just the detail alone of the tape tape. If that was in the newspaper, a million people would go crazy about about that. Yeah. Nope. Nuts. About six months later on December 10th, 1945, a 32 year old woman.

She's a stenographer and she's a former Navy wave. Forgot to look that up who had served during World War Two. Her name is Frances Brown. She's found slumped in her bathtub in her apartment at the Pine Grove Hotel in Chicago. Her, she had been shot in the head and I thought this is horrible. A bread knife had been driven sideways through her neck. Whoa. With such force that the blade had emerged on the other side.

Whoa. I know. She was nude and just like Josephine, she had been washed after being murdered, but he left her at the side of the bathtub for some reason. And her head was wrapped in towels. So it was like kind of a similar thing. And again, the apartment had been clear. I had been wiped clean of fingerprints.

But this time someone had left a message on the wall of the apartment written in lipstick. And it said in like crazy person writing. It said, for heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more. I cannot control myself. Do you want to see the photo? Yes, please. Okay, here you go. This is like, I love when any story is parallels the movie seven.

Oh yeah. It's exactly like that. I didn't even think about that. Okay, here's, it's like written like a crazy person. Okay. And we'll put it up on Twitter and all the places. You know why? Can I just say, as a handwriting analyst.

Expert, yeah. It's combining capital letters, lowercase letters and cursive. The cursive part's creepy. Curse of L's in the middle of like a, like a regular block. Yeah. Everything about this says, I don't know what the fuck is going on from second to second. Right. Right.

Or am I trying to make it look like I don't know what I'm doing from second to second? I guess that's true, but it's very effective. It is. I don't like a loose curse of L is very unnerving. Right. And is it some of the letters like fucking Toys Resta, like backward and forward too? Do you know what I mean? RS.

Like corn style backwards to upset you. Corn. Yes. It's a heaven's sake. Yeah. Read it because it's like, For heaven's sake, a curly QC catch me. So the C is like a C, a spiral.

It almost looks like a lowercase curse of E. Yes. That's exactly right. Catch me before capital B, capital F, everything else lowercase. I kill. Kill is an unconnected cursive. Yeah. It's all crazy.

It's written in fucking lipstick. And then the press then goes fucking crazy for it. Also no punctuation. And the other thing about this is that because at the time, women use the term for heaven's sake a lot. They thought it might be a woman who'd done this. Oh. Which everyone was like, what are you fucking talking about?

That's some poor theorizing. Yeah. Everyone now is like, what the fuck? Okay. So this note earned the killer the name, the lipstick killer, by the media, of course, who are now obsessed with it because they have a catchy name and two murders that are supposedly linked.

Four weeks later. All right. So they're going crazy. They're like, who the fuck is this killer? We don't know. And at the time, it was kind of an innocent era. And so people are doing the whole locking their doors for the first time thing.

Then four weeks later, at about 7.30 in the morning of January 7th, 1946, in a wealthy section in the north side of Chicago called Edgewater, it was discovered that six-year-old Suzanne Dagman was missing from her first floor bedroom. Whoa. Did you say six-year-old? So she's this little fucking sweet little blonde baby girl,

young thing, is missing. Her window is open and a ladder is placed underneath it outside. So like someone had climbed in and taken her. When they search her room, police find a crumpled note. And this is another fucking psychotically written thing that I have a photo for you. The note says, tells the family to prepare $20,000 ransom not to notify the police or FBI and to wait for a word

from the kidnapper, but they didn't find it until after. So look at that fucking psychotic note. Oh, no. It's similarly written, right? Yes. It's kind of... It's kind of curly Q, E's. And but also...

But the E's are curly. I mean, it's an E, not a C. I looked at them and I tried so hard to tell if they were connected or not. Oh, that police C is not the same. Yeah. I don't think it's the same. But it's still capitals and lower cases.

It is. It's still a fucking crazy note. But not like bills. The L's and bills are not cursive. They're not blending the cursive. To me, that note seems like it was written by someone uneducated and the lipstick killer one looks like it was someone trying to seem crazy.

So that's just my bullshit. Yeah, this looks like someone who doesn't write well. Yes. And it doesn't look planned because it's so sloppy. It's really sloppy and messy. It looks like it was hard to write. Right. And words are misspelled to which the other one isn't. Okay.

So they find that note and then on the reverse side is written burn this for her safety. Right. Okay. So by the evening of her disappearance, though, they've received some they've received some hang up calls about ransom, but they never they never like go through and they never give details.

And by that evening, police receive an anonymous phone call suggesting the police look in the sewers near the Degnan residence. Okay. This gets fucked up ready. Yes. Only a block away from the Degnan home. They find the severed head of little Suzanne Degnan

in a storm drain sewer. Jesus Christ. I know. This is 1940 fucking six. Like shit like this does not happen. This is Chicago. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. It's so awful. Then they find Suzanne's right leg in a catch basin. And they find her torso in another storm drain and her left leg in another drain. Each piece is found further and further away from the home. Like the person was just hiding them along the fucking way. And all the drains had cast iron manhole covers that weighed

at least 110 pounds each. Whoa. Yeah. Is that heavy? That's heavy, right? 110 pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I can picking up a fifth grader. Okay. I can bench like pretty, you know, you could punch like a second grader. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's awful. I'm sorry.

This is this the whole fucking city goes crazy. This is not this has not happened. Little girls like this, like adults, people can deal with it. It's not even front page news. Well, also this is the second you said this part. I think it I'm positive I've read this. But when it comes to something like when the details are that bad and gory, yeah, it's hard for us to do those at live shows

because it's just so awful. That's why I was like, I bet we didn't do this because I would remember us talking about this. Yeah. Because it's so quiet and sad and horrifying. Yeah. And it just like you're right. It was that time where because things were so things were so,

I mean, I feel like we are experiencing this societally not to get too broad about it. But these days we all know everything. We're desensitized. Yeah. And we and we're in it. We're in the mix, which I think is part of the reason this kind of true crime thing is like kicking up in the last 10

years so strongly is because it's like basically going, I'm not going to pretend anymore. This is real and it's happening. And I want to pay attention to it. Yeah. But back then this was like the the war is over. Buy a car, buy a house, get a wife, have two kids. Totally.

Be white. You can be whatever you want. Yeah. If you're white. And yeah. So it's that and everybody's kind of locked and focused on that and not letting go of it. So this is a real aberration.

And it's also the time. And I think you can't tell this story without making it that with making that a big part of it. What you just said and also that, you know, it was of course the time even in fucking Chicago where children just walked around and were out all night. Oh, yeah. Out all day, did whatever they wanted.

There was, you know, partying and throwing dice and alleys. Right. Yeah. But there was there was a lack of supervision because there wasn't a need for supervision because it was a, you know, a safer world. Supposedly. Supposedly a safer world.

Exactly. And it was though. But, you know, then something like this happens and it just changes the fucking landscape. And well, yeah, people can't tell themselves that lie anymore. Essentially is what it is. Right. And worst possible way to do it.

Exactly. So they, they search an apartment building near the location where Suzanne's head was found and they uncover and somehow, this is fucking crazy that they found this to me, but whatever, a basement laundry room. And in there are tubs because it was like, not, I was like, well, what about, why are there four tubs in there? It's like, oh no, they didn't have washing machines.

Right. It wasn't a tub is the laundry room. Yes. Oh, God. They find four tubs and in the drains, they find blood. Oh, no. So they find, they think that Suzanne had been dismembered there. The press began to refer to this as the murder room.

And that day, Chicago mayor Edward Kelly also receives a note and it says, this is to tell you how sorry I am not to not get old Dignan instead of his girl. So not to kill the dad instead of Suzanne. Like I'd rather kill the dad. Oh. Roosevelt and the OPA made their own laws. Why shouldn't I and a lot more?

So this is what this means. At the time, Chicago was home to the largest stockyards in the nation of meat animals and shit, you know. Yep. Meat packing. Stockyards is all about steer. There you go. Yeah.

I'm from Orange County. Okay. Yeah. There was a nationwide meat packer strike going on at the time and the office of price and administration. So the OPA was their enemy. That's who they were fucking striking against shit. Um, Suzanne Dignan's father was a senior executive with the

wartime meat regulation board and had just recently. And so he was part of the OPA and just recently another OPA executive had received threats against his children. Fuck. Yeah. Also, a man involved with the black market, with black market meat, which sounds just horrifying. I mean, no, but if you marinate it just right, you can barely taste.

That's good for your intestines. You want to really put some meat on your chest. Old rotten meat that's been sitting out. Yeah. So he, a man involved with the black, with black market meat. So basically a fucking, what's it? Line crosser, what do they call them? Strike breaker.

Line crosser. Scab. Scab had recently been murdered by decapitation. Oh no. Yeah. So police consider the possibility that Suzanne's killer was a meat packer, obviously. Seems to make sense.

I mean, sure. About the dismemberment, the coroner's expert said, quote, not even the average doctor could be a skillful with the, with the dismemberment, you know, like those, there weren't any hacking marks, that sort of thing. And then he said, it had to be a meat cutter. Like everyone in town, and then this time of period is like stirring some shit up without facts, like everyone's fucking doing it, including especially the media. Well, again, I feel like the time that existed before the internet existed,

when you could immediately fact check that it was just a glorious time for us liars, where you could just kind of say whatever, no one could check it. And if you were a person that was like talking to the media, so you're the mayor, you're somebody high in power, nobody would check it. You had, there was so much good faith. And the media and the fucking, this is the time when the media and the police were fucking besties. So the cops would want to like get some shit out to be like, we need to catch this person, hear some information that could also not be true.

Right. And it would be printed. Right. So it was just a lot of bullshit. So saying that, whatever. Also the perfect setup for like, oh, it's a meat packer. See, they're the bad guys. They're the, oh, oh, you mean the working class guy, the people that are,

that don't have a lot of money. They're striking so that they could not work fucking seven hour, seven hour days. Nope, seven days a week. Yeah. You know? Yes. Isn't that what they did? Okay.

So, all right. So then with no direct evidence, and this is a time before Miranda writes existed too. Really? Wow. Yeah. They're that recent? Yeah, I think so. Oh, shit.

Okay. We should find out about that. Yeah. Okay. With no, with no direct evidence, police, police were like, you know what? Okay. The janitor at the building where Suzanne lived, let's fucking get his wife to pressure him into confessing. Oh.

He's a 65 year old man named Hector Verbig, Verberg, Verberg. She's like, implicate your husband. And she's like, fuck no, what are you talking about? Still, the police told the press that this is the man. Like the police kept, or the press kept being like, we got our guy, we got our guy. He's held for 48 hours of questioning, during which time he's beaten severely and had to spend 10 days in the hospital afterwards. Oh, shit.

He said that anymore and he would have confessed to anything. So it's later determined that he is actually a Belgian immigrant. So he couldn't even write English well enough to have written the ransom note. He sues the Chicago police department for $15,000 at that time, $15,000. And he's awarded $20,000. Oh, shit. They're like, no, no, no. You're going to get even more.

The people have spoken. Yeah. So this is how poorly this investigation is going. A month after Suzanne's body parts had been found and after she had been buried, then her arms are found by sewer workers. So her body is buried without her arms. It's not a month until they find them. Horrible.

How horrible is that? By April, 370 suspects had been questioned and cleared and the press is starting to criticize the police's ability to catch Suzanne's killer. So they're turning on each other. Right. And they're like, they've got the heat on them. Investigators say that they had found two partial fingerprints on the ransom note and one smudged fingerprint on the doorknob at the second crime scene.

And that experts matched the handwriting and fingerprint. They, they linked everything together so that the two, the murders of the two women who are so different in every way to the murder, the kidnapping and murder of Suzanne are linked. They say it's that they're all linked. Yeah. Which it seems impossible to me. It's almost just like, these are the three of them. Just like these are the three most upsetting things that have happened in the city recently.

Right. We have a monster. Yeah. The sales papers. We're going to take care of everything at once. Yeah. I mean, it's a nice idea. Right.

And it's like, it's weird evidence. Even if there were like the experts say that the handwriting matches, it's like, that's clearly bunk science. We fucking know that now. And that's not, that's circumstantial evidence. It's not true evidence. Anyways, in late June of 1946, police questioned this fucking creepy ass dude named Richard Russell Thomas.

He was a nurse at the time of the investigation. No judgment on male nurses. No, no, no, no, no, no. But he has medical knowledge so he could, he could dismember. Yeah. At the time of the, here's judgment time. At the time of the investigation, he's in prison in Phoenix from molesting one of his own daughters.

Oh, so judgment. So full judgment. Full judgment. From that one. But he was in Chicago at the time of Suzanne's murder. And a handwriting expert, again, says there's great similarities between Thomas's handwriting and the ransom note. And that many of the phrases that was used in the ransom note, this dude, Richard Thomas,

had used previously in an extortion note years earlier in an attempted kidnapping. Oh, so he fucking had tried to do it before and has similar phrases in writing. He pulled down his crime file and he was like, what's my other hand copy, hand paste. Right. He pulls out his, his like pre computer, what's it, font murderer serial killer font. That's right. Oh, and he had medical training as a nurse, blah, blah, blah. Okay.

Okay. So, and then during questioning by Chicago police, he totally admits to killing Suzanne. Oh. But he's, I don't know. I don't know about this guy. Anyways. Well, because we do know that the other guy got beaten for hours and was in the hospital. Exactly. So it could have been just one of those situations.

Right. Grain assault. So they think they have their guy. That is until authorities get a new suspect reported to the paper the same day that this Thomas dude is, uh, is happening, they find out that a college student was caught fleeing from the scene of a burglary and that when cornered, this guy had pulled a gun on police. Oh. And at this time, this dude, this Thomas dude had recanted his confession and police let

him go. So they're like, this other guy must be our guy. So let's talk about this guy. 17 year old William Hirons. Hirons. 17. Yeah. 17.

Oh. William Hirons is born. He was born in November of 1928 grew up in Lincoln Wood, which is the suburb of Chicago. He's the son of a poor immigrants from Luxembourg and his parents argued constantly as when he was a kid, which made him just leave the fucking house and wander around town. And eventually he started committing petty crimes like burglary just for fun. He said just to release tension. He would break into houses and steal shit.

To release tension. Yeah. It's like, all right, bro. I mean, have you ever heard of baseball or making a friend? By 13 years of age, he's arrested for carrying a loaded gun, which he had stolen from a fucking Jesus. Yeah. He's on a bad path.

That's very bugsy Malone. It is a search of his house. Discover they discover a number of stolen weapons in an old storage shed, along with first suits, cameras, radios and jewellery as he had stolen. He admitted to 11 burglaries and was sent to school for wayward boys for several months. But here's the thing. He never sold anything. He never stole from money.

It was almost just like he was bored and wanted to see what he could get away with and do. Yeah. It's the thrill of it. Yeah. And he was poor, but he still didn't like sell the camera on the street or anything like that. I think he still sold stole money, but it didn't seem like that was his intent. So he wasn't a cap burglar. Right.

He was he was like a weird, breaking, peeping Tom, maybe type of guy. Yeah. I don't know about the peeping Tom part, but just like a nose. How about a nosey Nellie? A nosey Nellie kid who just like, yeah. Who wanted to break some rules and get up into people's business. Exactly. So he gets released and then William Hirons is again arrested for theft and larceny.

This time though, he sentenced to three years at a school operated by Benedictine Monks. Uh oh. No, that's what I thought too. It turns out when he's at the school, he fucking flourishes. Oh. And it turns out he's smart as fuck. He's an exceptional student, excels in all kinds of crazy fucking subjects that I couldn't do. Like what?

Latin? Yeah. Electronics. I don't know. At the time I could probably do this. 1945. You know, but this wire here and that wire there. Use the phone.

You're now an electronics major. But he's super bug and smart. His test scores are so high that he gets admitted to the to University of Chicago's experimental school for gifted students. He's enrolled for a bachelor of science wanting to become an electronics engineer. So he can use the fucking phone. He loves that phone. Calling people all the time.

Hello, it's me, Ritter. Can you believe this shit? Ahoy-hoy. Saying ahoy-hoy in a business like voice is the best. Ahoy-hoy. Ahoy-hoy. I mean it. Right.

So he starts in the fall of 1945. He was 16 years old at this point. And he started at this fucking school. That's college. A college. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smart guy college. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is a little man-tate situation. Yeah. Okay. Congratulations, William Hirons. What happened? Yeah. Well, here's what happened. Okay.

He, of course, couldn't afford any of this shit. So he worked several jobs, but he's also like, I'm going to go back to being a serial burglar because it's fun and I can make money. So he keeps doing that. He kind of like lives this crazy double life. But at school, he's known as like a good dancer. He's handsome and charming.

He goes on dates and shit. Like people love our friends with him and love them. He's pretty cute, too. You want to see a photo of him? See him when he pulls a photo of him. He's a good dancer. That's what some chick was like. There was like a...

It can't be him. Well, it was dance club. So it wasn't like they'd go dancing. It would be like, let's all learn how to do the Lindy hop and shit. And this chick was like, everyone wanted to dance with him because he was like charming and a good dancer. And a good dancer. Right.

Which is like... It's the perfect cover. Great. That's not what we say anymore. Okay. Now we're like, oh, he rides a motorcycle. Yeah, exactly. So the afternoon...

All right. So the afternoon that cops are like, maybe this is the guy, he... It's June 26, 1946. He's 17 years old. He goes to the post office to catch a $1,000 savings bond, which he had purchased with the money from previous burglaries. He had a date that night and he needed money.

That's why he was doing this. He burglars. Then he takes it. He buys bonds. Yeah. He invests. And then he needs the money to take a lady on a date, which $1,000 for a date.

I'm like, fucking take me out, bro. There he is. Where are you gonna go in Chicago? He has your forehead. He has a three head, for sure. No, it's just like a strong, dark hairline, Karen forehead. Yes. Kilgara forehead.

It also, he has very great, great hair, great eyebrows. Good features. He, you know, he looks the first... You've got, you're getting text even. I want to read those texts out loud so bad, Steven. Don't you? Who would play him? Rob Riggle.

That's the first person I thought of when I looked at that picture. If Rob Riggle, I feel like he'd have to be a little smaller, but he definitely has like, Italian, shorter Rob Riggle. You know what we do? Rob Riggle. Rob Riggle. We do a door font golf thing where Rob Riggle stands on his knees. Totally.

And then we shoot around it, you know. We just make it work. Yeah. We just make, we, we do a, being John Malkovich kind of small down the set. He gets on his knees. We're off to the races. Okay.

I figured it out. I'll call some people. Great. I'll be there. Oh, and so he, okay. So he has $1,000 on him. He's like, fuck, I'm going to bring a gun with me. This is a lot of money.

That's why he has a gun on him. The, he's making, listen, look, this guy, listen, he's making bad decisions. Okay. Yeah. Consistently. Consistently. This isn't before I fucking tout why he's innocent about other shit.

He sucks. And like he's doing some shitty stuff. Yeah. Because when he finds out that the bank is closed, he's like, well, I'll just rob a place real quick and get some cash for the state tonight. So like, you're not, and you have a gun on you too. You're not the best fucking dude.

Well, yeah, because if you're smart enough to go to college when you're 16 years old and be Mr. Gifted, but you're not, none of those abilities are applying to the any other part of your life. Right. Or like, it's not even about being smart. It's just like, fuck everyone. Fuck everyone else.

I want what I want. I'm going to take it. Yeah. Like you're stealing money from people who probably need that money too, dude. Well, right. And it's, yeah, that's all power moves and stuff where it's like, you know, those breaking people turn into murderers because they don't give a shit.

Exactly. And they're doing everything. It's like the thrill of it. And it's what I'm interested in. It's what I want to do. It's narcissism. Like there's part of you that wants to be like, well, you're 17.

You're going to like straighten your shit out and be a good person, which I think a lot of people sitting in this loft have done their lives. Straighten your shit out. At least two, Steven. At least two of them. Yeah, but, you know, fuck. I mean, yeah, he's so young.

Right. But okay. So he goes to burglar a place to get some cash. He goes to a place he'd been stolen before and it's just a few blocks away from the Degnan House apartment. He's caught while trying to grab the money. This Jason Seuss, Blah, Blah, Blah. He's cornered by the cops and then he fucking pulls his gun on the cop.

Yeah. He doesn't shoot, but it's like, what the fuck are you thinking? Is he suicide by copping, maybe? I don't know. Okay. He's suicide by being 17 years old. He's suiciding by being a stupid fucking idiot. And then there's like a sc…

The cop's gun jams or some shit. There's a scuffle. And then it turns into a fucking Laurel Unhardy or like Three Stooges pick because another cop grabs a fucking clay flower pot and smashes it over his fucking head. It says three of them. Like, takes three fucking flower pots and smashes his… It's fucking…

For real? Yes. That's hilarious. That's how he gets stopped from fighting with his cop. He was stopped by officers Tom and Jerry. Exactly. Exactly. He goes unconscious.

They take him to the hospital. He drifts in and out of conscious. He says that he remembers someone saying that he's a suspect in the Degnan case and he feels his fingerprints being taken. Oh. Okay. They raid his houses and shit where he lives. They find all his stuff from his previous blur glories.

Blur… I'm calling them blur glories. A couple blur glories? They were called blur glories until 1950. They were just a blur of blur glories. Oh my god, yes. Blur glories. Blur glories. Karen, that was amazing.

Thank you. I'm really trying. A couple things that are recovered are a scrapbook containing pictures of Nazi officials that he had stolen from a war veteran that was taken when he blur blurred his place. Yeah. The same night that Susan Degnan was killed. Uh-oh. Which I want to fucking know about this dude who had that photo album.

Like what a psychopath. Or did he liberate some, some French city Nazi occupied and then grab shit? That happened a lot. His name was Harry Gold, so I'm going to guess you're right. Yes. Harry Gold was on the right side. Harry Gold was not a Nazi. Harry Gold's people came through Ellis Island.

They're like, why don't we clip that Berg off? Yeah. Let's move to Chicago. Act as white as we can. Oh, World War II. We have to fight Hitler. Let's go for it. Let's do it.

Okay. Harry Gold, I apologize for insinuating you were a Nazi. Also. Oh my gosh. What? The first Jewish Nazi. He wouldn't be the first. Who are you going to cast in that?

Okay. Also, his possession in William's shit is a stolen copy of the psychopathic sexualius. Yes. From 1886. Preach it. It's the one. It's like the fucking, it's like the psychology of. Sexuality.

Sexual, psychopaths. Yes. Sexual psychopaths. Yeah. Right. You know who's read that book? Who? Mr. Paul Holes.

Stephen. Oh. Stephen. Sorry, Stephen. He never got past chapter one. Sorry, Stephen. He played the fifth. You played chapter fifth.

The fifth chapter. That's what's wrong with him. I mean, it just starts reciting everything in the fifth chapter. Well, it turns out. In Latin. In addition, okay, they find that and then they also find a stolen medical kit. So, and they're like, oh, is this shit? This dismemberment stuff, but it's like, it's not.

He's interrogated. Okay. So then here's what happens. Then William is interrogated around the clock for six fucking days. He's beaten by police, refused food or water. He's not allowed to see his parents and or a lawyer. He's 17. Yeah.

And like they beat the shit out of him. Yeah, they did. He's subjected to interrogation for three hours under the influence of sodium penithal, which we know is truth serum, which we also now know is fucking bullshit and is not, doesn't work. While under the truth serum, he like, and it's like a psycho. What is it called? Sexualis. It's just like that.

It's just like it. He like concocts this person, like an alter ego named George Merman. Who's the father? Ethel's brother. Ethel Merman's brother. Eugene's grandfather. That's right. Who authorize who it's basically like has this alter ego that makes him kill people,

whatever, like makes it up on truth serum, maybe and other people like, or did he make it up? Is he the killer? Is it true? Yeah. You know what I mean? And then the fucking media is like, oh, Merman must be short for a murder man. And then like just go with that.

It's just so stupid. I would have tabled that for a little bit longer. Nigga, yeah. I mean, like, I understand why you're excited about that idea. Let's keep work starting. Not the worst, but. Definitely not the worst and feel great about it. Like go move, go forward with that.

But it's too, uh, it's too open. Why aren't you just saying Merman like a mermaid? Um, on the fifth day, he's given with, okay, no anesthesia given a spinal tap. No, no, that's torture. Holy shit. Then they drive into police headquarters for a polygraph test, which they couldn't do because he was in so much fucking pain. And to this day, they still don't understand the re that we still don't know why they

gave him a lumbar puncture. They, it was like for a reason, but nobody, but it's like. They didn't write the reason down. No. Fuck. Well, sorry, they did that in a hospital and then drove them to police headquarters. That's the epidural too, right? No, no, no, I'm sorry before that.

But it's still, it's stuff getting shoved into your spine. They gave him that. That's okay. I hear that with, with, uh, anesthesia, ladies have had babies. This is the most like when they have to fucking shove that shit in your spine. You don't want a needle in your spine. I mean, I don't, I know I can be really controversial, but I'm, if I can say it, you don't want a needle in your spine.

Karen, are you sure you want to leave this part in? Just leave it in, Stephen. How dare you? Oh my God. All right. When the polygraph is administered, results are inconclusive. Uh, they're declared inconclusive, although the people, and this is part of him being, uh, taken a trial, but later in 1953, the people who had had said it was inconclusive

have published the findings in their book, which I'm sure was just a fascinating read. And they say that his test quote clearly establishes him as an innocent person. So like people are lying. Handwriting analysis said his writing is the same as the lipstick message and the ransom note. They say that his fingerprints match the fingerprints on the smudge on the doorjam, even though it was a smudge fingerprint, they say that, uh, it's, it's, uh, his fingerprint. There's also another fingerprint found on the ransom note that they say is his. Blah, blah, blah.

After, um, being intermittently tortured, uh, and held with that food, sleep, or access for five days, he is finally indicted for assault with intent to kill robbery. 23 counts of blur, blur, blur glory. Jesus Christ. How's that candor Jose? I wish I could blame it on that, but I haven't had that much of it. Blurglary. Blurglary.

And three counts of murder. Bobadiba. He's transferred to the county jail and his lawyer is who's hired for him is like, no, man, you're guilty. Let's figure, let's figure this out and keep you out of the fucking chair. Like that's his plan. Wow. He said that he, uh, all his plant, he thought he was guilty his and that the burglary is alone.

He would face life imprisonment. So he's like, let's just keep you out of the chair. Well, that guy's pretty negative for a defense lawyer. Are you supposed to be like over the top, optimistic and fake it in the real world? Yes. Yeah. Um, so they have, there's a plea bargain, a blarion, a plea bargain. He's going to, if he, if he pleads, uh, guilty, he'll get a single life sentence.

Uh, and then, but if he, but then he refuses all this shit happens where he like is like, I didn't do this. They're mad at him for saying that. And then finally, um, he's threatened with death penalty. If he, if the trial goes, if the case goes to trial, he says later that I confess to save my life. So he sent him ultimately to three consecutive life sentences for the murders and, um, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh. Okay. Then the handwriting expert recants in early January of the next year and, uh, said that

the handwriting on the ransom note and a lipstick message had quote, few superficial similarities and a great many dissimilarities. Okay. Doesn't matter, he's fucking already in prison. Too late. Yeah, too late. And then some quite have questioned the legitimacy of the lipstick note completely saying that quote, it wouldn't, it would be, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a man to pick up a piece of

lipstick and write the message with it. Basically, they think a fucking crime reporter went in there and was like, this story is boring and wrote the lip, the lipstick note. Yeah, well, what's boring about a woman getting stabbed and having her wounds taped shut? That's a, that was the first murder. Oh, that's, the note was on the second murder. Yeah. She wasn't boring either.

None of this is boring. It's not boring. Yeah. But I mean, that's, I understand that. I don't think that part's true, but I just don't. And I don't even know if those two murders are, are even connected, the first two. But it does make sense because there was that, it was the pulp era where it wasn't enough to have a murder.

Yeah. It was that sensationalism. Yes, exactly. You had to, you had to have a nickname and you had to term things. Totally. You know, lipstick on the wall is like, what's more upsetting and crazy? Also, that's stolen straight out of Jack the Ripper. Oh, right.

Writed on the wall and some weird writing of like, I'm crazy. And also it's the Jews who did it and all that stuff and make people run in every direction. Well, it's, it reminds me of the case of the weepy voice killer. Remember him who calls and is like, make me stop doing this. He hates his fucking voice. It's so annoying. I was just talking to my friend about that. Oh my God.

Oh, and I'm not your friend? You're talking to me about it right now. No, I'm telling you that we're talking about it right now. Oh, right now. What if you just informed me when we were talking about shit? That's my new way of going crazy, where I'm like, we're talking now. Anyway, go ahead. I'm talking to my brown-haired friend right now.

Go ahead and keep talking about what we're talking about. Okay, I'm almost done. I swear this is long enough. No, no, it's good. No, no, it's good. And I apologize. People, oh, also they're like, okay, the fingerprint that you guys found on the doorknob, that's a rolled fingerprint, which I didn't know about this until later.

Yep. Explain the move you just did. I just basically, it's the thing you see in every movie when someone gets booked at the police station and they roll, they put your thumb in the black ink and then they roll across a piece of paper. Exactly, which a fingerprint expert's like, that's not how you find fingerprints. Yeah, you don't touch the door by going like, ooh. Do you know how many times I did this move and tried to, and when I heard that and was

like trying to open a doorknob in the air to be like, would I do that though? But I guess it could do that. But maybe I'd roll it, whatever. You can't do it, right? It's not a thing. It's just like not normal. Yeah, because you have to grip it. You have to grip it.

So it would just be the top of your fingerprint. Anyways, so William had been eligible for parole. What's going on? I don't know for nearly nearly every year since the 1970s. He's been eligible for parole. The Center for Wrongful Convictions mounted a clemency campaign on the grounds that he had served longer than required and that the evidence used to convict him was unreliable. But nothing worked.

He just like, they wouldn't let him go. Constantly these things kept happening. Right. In 2012, when he died in 1980, nope, Jesus. In 2012, he was 83, he was 1983 years old. Got it. He was 83 years old. He was the longest serving inmate in the Illinois Department of Corrections in 2012. He's the first inmate in Illinois to receive a college degree.

And he like learned all this crazy shit. He helped all these fucking other inmates with, you know, but he helped the fucking library and the school system and, you know, so we did a lot of good stuff in inside. Is there a school system in the jail? Now there is, but there wasn't. There's a grammar school and there's. Well, he helped him like get GEDs, like you couldn't do that then.

So because he was the first one to get his college degree. And he was in there basically as a child and he was super genius. So he's like, at the very least I can do is help other people. Right. So that's a good sign. Yeah, it is not what I know. I don't think most psychopaths think that way. Right. Right. So, um, all right.

So Robert Restler, our fucking friend, who's the former FBI profiler. Our fucking friend. Yep. Meaning we have, we're fans of him. That's what I always say when I say that. Yes, he's our fucking friend. Our fucking friend. 100%.

He's one of us. Robert Restler, former FBI profile, credited with coining the term serial killer, mind hunter dude, you guys remember him. So he was a nine year old living in Chicago at the time of those murders. And he says, quote, it changed the innocence of neighborhoods when, where people had taken for granted that they could have unlocked doors and walk alone at night. And it's those events that inspired him to become a criminologist, the lipstick murders. Wow.

Yeah. The Suzanne's murder itself became a key element in his landmark theories about serial homicide. And they actually interviewed him, he and FBI profile, John Douglas interviewed him in prison. And John Douglas remains convinced that shoddy evidence, shoddy evidence management, prosecutorial, overreach and media frenzy led to false accusations with these horrible consequences. Wow. That's the lipstick killer. That's also every time I think of that too, there's obviously like the idea of going to jail

and staying there for the rest of your life is a nightmare and people live it constantly. And that's horrible. But there's, I also always think somebody fucking got away with it and is sitting out there. They just went to a different town and did it again. That's what I was trying to look at is like, are there like, it's so hard to find info on this, but it's like, are there any, you know, other murders that could be attributed? What if he just went over to Boston and changed up his M.O.?

That's what I was thinking too. Something like that where that's what I, I mean, I do love that when things happen. And it, you know, luckily it's been happening lately, you know, to where we get the satisfaction of like, they catch the golden state killer. And that means they have now solved Viscielli-Ransaker, hysteria, rapist, and then all those that, you know, totally the original, they were calling it the original Night Stalker that it's so satisfying that now I think about that all the time.

What if they pull up this DNA thing and it's just like, because they don't stop. They don't just stop. No, I can't wait to hear more information about, I mean, I'm going out of my mind, which is why I had to stop fucking going on Twitter of like, give me more information now about the golden state killer. Like they know this about him. They don't like, and there's nothing coming up yet. So I know, but I can't wait to know like why and what happened after 1986.

You know, it's just crazy. Yes. What were the jobs were? I mean, yeah, we just want to know everything. It's so crazy. Well, one of the things that they said that made sense about, you know, when he was like, you had to spend the rest of your life in prison, how awful would that be?

But at the time, in 1946, if he did get sent to the electric chair, it would have been a matter of months. Yes. So now it's like 18 fucking years of appeals. It wasn't like that then. Right. So it's almost better that, you know, at least he had this time to make something of his life, even if it was.

And help other people. Pretty shitty. He had a chance at getting out. It just never worked out that way. You have to hope that nowadays something would have happened, but to get him out. But prison reform. It's important. It is. It's so crazy.

But then like, what if he did do it? Yeah, but I don't think he would have helped people in prison if he did it. That's not, that's not a, you can't figure that. That's like, he was so nice. I never really had already figured it in its fact. But it's the same thing if you're like, he was so nice. I never would have assumed Ted Bundy would have done those. It's the same thing.

You're right. You bundied me and you're right. No way, man. People who are fucking into books and reading and smart and helping other convicts aren't not, aren't less likely to murder children and women. But, but you want them to be nice, smart people. Well, I just, but it is that thing of psychopaths only do what's good for them. Well, what looks good for him is helping other people in prison.

Except for, yeah, I guess that's true. And look how smart he is. How, how, didn't Ted Bundy get off on fucking guys coming and getting legal help from him in prison? Yeah. He was, that's how he fucking didn't get beat up and killed. You've convinced me. Yes, I love convincing.

Oh, hey, look, there's a spider on the ceiling. I just threw my head back in the fucking happiness and there's a legit spider on the ceiling. I'm sure I left my, I left my glasses downstairs. Oh my God, Karen, he's coming closer to you. Yeah. So somebody suggested this on Twitter and I was positive I was going to write her name down today when I was like, oh, I am going to do that one.

She suggested. It's a theme. And she, yeah, exactly. And she suggested it in a terse way. So I imagine she's the kind of person that's going to be very pissed off that I took her idea and didn't give her name. Well, good. She said, have you guys ever done the blah, blah, blah case?

I think you should. It was something like that. It was basically like, come on, get with it. Yeah. And I was like, that's actually a great idea. Thought I could look her up while we were sitting here and my Twitter does a thing sometimes where it just won't go back very far. So I couldn't look it up.

So full apologies. Hopefully I'll hear from you. Mess it, email Twitter first. Tell them to fix their shit. Let Jack know to stop letting Nazis run free on his website and then that we need to be able to go back a couple of days just for the podcast. Or like, search a word in, okay. You know what?

Also editing. It would just be nice to get one more pass before you send your ideas out anyhow. Guys, this I am going to do the crime of the century, the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. Girl, I'm applauding you, but I would scare Elvis who's sitting on me right now. Yeah, don't worry about it. Also, it's not my applause. It's this girl's who's name. I'm not saying this girl.

They're amazing. Also, I woman, we should be saying woman. We don't know. I actually could be misremembering and I'm just attributing like a feminine aspect to like whatever picture, maybe she had long hair. Who knows? Humans. We're going to that human is going to let us know just how pissed they are about not

getting credit for, you know, a case. I also can't believe that we haven't done yet. Yeah. And as I was doing it, part of me was like, what if George has done this? And I was like, at this point, I just don't care. I just want to do what I want. I think that, yeah, I think that's our new, our new theme is, did she do this? I mean, let's just start repeating stories and retelling them and just do better each time.

Oh my God. Less and less corrections corner. Love it. And then in like seven years, we're going to get to that journalistic level. People have been wanting us to be at this all time. No, we're not. Never. Never.

And then we'll give up on the podcast. Yes. That's then we'll quietly walk away in the night. Yeah. Because you know how quiet we are. Yeah. Walk away. So I got all this information from an episode of Nova.

Oh, thank God for that. PBS. Baby, it's like, and you can get an education for free on PBS. And the funniest thing is this episode of Nova featured John Douglas, FBI profiler, John Douglas, who you just mentioned. He's the main, basically they pulled John Douglas all the way through of going, the Lindbergh baby case was, and murder was presented in this way. And they got to this conclusion.

John Douglas doesn't degree. John Dougie. That's what we call him, you know. He's in there with his super reasonable face. Our friend. And his glasses, holding his glasses in his teeth. Friend of the show, John Douglas, solving problems. It's very, very cool.

So that's a good, that episode of Nova you can get on iTunes. Or you can hear it right now. Or you can hear me tell it word for word. Although it's not a exact I survive word for word steal, as I usually do. Because there's another, there's a Netflix series called Conspiracy that is good. And I got, and they do the thing where they do its compilation. So it's like three stories in each episode.

And this one. What's that? So you don't get bored. Yeah, they keep it moving. And this one is the episode is Disappearances. It's also the other, I can't remember what the third crime is, but the other first crime in that is the Lord Lucan. Oh, you did that guy.

Disappearance. Yes, I did do that. I love it. Loving it. So here we go. His little backstory for you. Why anybody cared about Charles Lindbergh in the first place. On May 21st, 1927, a 25 year old US airmail pilot named Charles Lindbergh

touched down in an airfield outside of Paris, France. In his plane, the spirit of St. Louis. When I read that name, I'm like, oh, that's what that is. What? You know, the spirit of St. Louis. Oh, yeah. Like if you had asked me that, I would have confused it with the spruce goose. Uh-huh.

I would have, you know, maybe an Amelia Earhart situation. Exactly. But at least, you know, it's a plane. We know it. Maybe it's a plane or, but now we know exactly. That's Charles Lindbergh's wonderful plane that got him. He was the first man to ever make the nonstop flight from New York to Paris. Oh.

It was 33 and a half hours. Jesus. It was 3,600 miles. Is that like in one of those planes that doesn't have a face either? So it's just like, it went in your face. No, a biplane. I'm pretty sure it had a face on it. Okay.

Although, I, why would I, why would I say that? If there were two years in, why would I fucking say that? Because you're not going to start now with not knowing shit. I, look, my brain shows me movies and that's reality to me. And I just report to you. Yes or no. My brain shows me movies and that's reality. And that's my reality.

I love it. Um, it was 33 hours and we complained about four or five hours to New York City. 33th hours and 33 hours alone in all, all day, all night. And all you hear is, oh. And he couldn't bring a bunch of extra shit. Stephen's on the plane. And do you know, thank God, the spirit of St. Louis is. Closed in the front.

Thank God. But I bet it's the loudest fuck still. Oh, the whole thing, it looks like a big aluminum can. No temperature control. No toilet. No, it was freezing. You know, he was peeing in an old Pepsi bottle. I mean.

Throwing it over. Overboard. Throwing it overboard for the first time in human history. Okay. So, um, he, when he sets down in Paris and he does this thing. So, uh, uh, just to give you a little, oh, did that fucking. Huh. God damn it.

I cut and pasted it and then lost, lost this piece of information. Okay. But like six other people had tried to do this and three of them died. So this wasn't a thing. This was not, um, this was something because it was, there was a prize. It was, um, these people said whoever does this first gets $25,000. Jesus. So lots of pilots and different people were, um, were, uh, trying for it.

And it's really hard and some people like had to ditch out and whatever. But like people lost their lives trying to make this flight. So when Lindbergh landed in this airfield outside of Paris, he was immediately an international superstar. Shit. He was the most famous man in the world. He got carried around the people that were waiting at the airstrip. He never had a walk again.

He never walked again. His feet became curled and out for feed. No, um, they, they said they held him. This is on the Wikipedia page. They, they carried him on their shoulders for over a half an hour. Jesus. He's like, I've only wanted to touch the ground for the past 30 hours. The first three were great.

Put me down. Yeah. He's like, this is the exact position I've been stuck in for 33 hours. All right. So he, he gets the nickname Lucky Lindy. He gets that 25 K. He also gets thousands and thousands more for all these promotional fees. Oh yeah. I bet. Because apparently. Pepsi bottle. It's Pepsi company.

Pepsi is like, we want that bottle. But apparently this really opened up aviation in general, but also for air mail. So he was the guy that kicked it open over like FedEx and everything. Or it's like, you want, you want to get something to Europe. We're doing now we're going to be able to do that. Yeah. And that was kind of what the whole contest was about.

Okay. Was to kind of focus on aviation, but then like, you know, opening up so that suddenly people were thinking, you know, business in terms of aviation. I don't know what I'm talking about. Okay. He was, he'd given the Medal of Honor, which is the military's highest award.

And he was given, he was Time Magazine's first ever man of the year. Wow. He was 25 years old. That's so young. Yeah. And he was kind of hot too. Well, do you know who he looks like? Yeah.

Do you mind pulling up a picture of Mr. Charles Lindberg at age 25 when he made this flight? Don't tell me until I see it. Okay. We're going to, I'm going to show you a picture. Okay. You're going to tell me who you think this man looks like. Now, please take your time.

I'm just killing time while Steven finds it. He's blonde. He had a dent in his chin. Love it. He was, his coloring was very like caramel, but with blonde hair, which you know those people. I don't care. Those people always win. They always win.

Let me pull up. Oh. It's such an old man of the year thing that it's illustrated. That's how long ago this story took place. Oh, that's cute. Come on. I'm sorry I did this. Because why don't you look at this picture and tell me

Oh, hello, handsome. Who you think this looks like. Well, I'm going to get this wrong. No, you're not. He definitely looks like he's in a Brit Pop band from the 60s in this photo. Doesn't he? Yes. Does he look like, God, he's hot. Uh, tell me.

Paul Holes. Look at the face of it. He does look like Paul Holes. He does look like Paul Holes. This is the Holes episode. Well, let's just work all this Paul Holes stuff out now. Paul Holes upon Holes upon Holes. At the Sun. Okay, so.

He does look like Paul Holes. So Lindbergh being the most famous man in the world and like he's being, he's being brought everywhere. He's like, he's being fed it in this really intense way and he's making a ton of money. Good for him. They said that for everything that kind of,

he got paid for around that flight, he made like almost half a million dollars. Jesus. In today's money. But still. A lot of money. I'll take today's money, half a million, for fuck's sake. It's pretty nice. So he gets a financial planner,

a financial consultant from J.P. Morgan. Big company. And it's a big company, did you know? And the planner's name is Dwight Morrow. And he's also the ambassador to Mexico. What the fuck? He was, you know, this was when they gave

important job, a ton of important jobs for the white guy. It was the 20s. So when Morrow invites Charles Lumber to come on a Goodwill tour of Mexico because he's famous and everyone loves him. Well, just by chance

Morrow's daughter Ann is down there and they meet and they fall in love. Rich people falling in love. Rich good looking people who have their own planes falling love all the time. They love everything.

They just start to fly. Okay, he teaches her how to fly. I bet he does. Yeah, girl. I don't know. Love. They get married, immediately start a family. Charles Lindberg

was very vocal and verbal insulting or criticizing, I should say. Other pilots of the day. There was lots of, you know, pilots like the Amelia Earhart era where it's like being dashing, being you know, being a pilot was a big deal.

He was a trash talker. He was because he said that Air Force cadets and pilots of the day, they were all, um, they were, had facile attitudes about women. And how dare

whereas he believed the ideal romance was stable and long term for the woman with keen intellect. Okay. Good health, whoops. And strong genes. Oops. Oh, so you're a Nazi. Uh-huh, good one.

Good eye. Um, his quote experience in breeding animals on our farm taught him the importance of good heredity. Of good breeding. Oh dear. Hey Chuck, no. No, no. It don't work that way. Okay, so that's just a little,

that's your, um, foreshadowing. Okay. So let's go to the crime. This is 1932. They, uh, uh, Anne and Charles Lindbergh have been married. Um, and they now have two kids and newborn

and their baby Charlie, their first son, who is two years old. On March, on Tuesday, March 1st, 1932, the family staying at their as yet unfinished new house in Hopewell, New Jersey, or right outside of Hopewell, New Jersey.

Um, they only visited this house on the weekends. They were, they were living full time at Anne Marrow's family estate called Englewood. Englewood. Rich people. Yeah, represent. So no one except for the family

would have known that they would have been at this house because they, they were full time living at the Englewood estate, but they would come to Hopewell house and live there be just for the weekend, just for fun of like, this is going to be our new house. Um, there was, of course,

full staff at both houses. Um, so sometime between eight and 10 o'clock on March 1st, um, one or more, they're still not sure, kidnappers, um, lean a homemade folding ladder.

So it's a ladder that has three pieces that like slide into each other, an extending ladder, I guess, but it's homemade. Um, lean it up against the wall of the house underneath the baby's window. The windows unlocked. The, um, kidnapper breaks

in, grabs the two year old. Um, they say, they theorize that they subdued the two year old somehow because no sound was made. No one in the house heard anything. Everyone was still awake. So it's not like everyone was asleep and the baby was stolen. Everyone's

up and awake downstairs. Um, the baby doesn't make a sound. They go back out down the ladder and off into the night with Charlie. And, uh, they leave a window, a letter on the window cell. So there's another ransom. Um, demanding $50,000

to be dropped off at midnight at a local cemetery on April 2nd. And they warn not to contact the police or they'll kill the baby. So, um, basically Charles Lindbergh takes over this case. Now, it seemed to me that

what they were kind of insinuating in both of these specials is that Charles Lindbergh really kind of believed he was the shit that the world was saying that he was for, for making that, uh, that transcontinental flight. He was cocky. The transatlantic flight. Yes. He, some people

believe he was a narcissist, um, you know, whatever. But, but essentially once this started happening, he didn't trust anybody. He didn't trust the police. And he basically told everybody how it was going to go. And in doing so, fucked up this investigation, that then also

some people afterwards kind of theorized maybe he was doing it on purpose. Oh my God. So there's, there's suspicion cast, but he basically told the police, like, we're going to make this ransom drop. You will not tail anybody. You will not follow them. Just do it. Yeah. But, but we're

going to do it. And so the police said, okay, fine, just let us let us organize the money, the cash that you're going to drop. Because what the police wanted to do was um, essentially they're using uh, gold. It was like the gold

there used to be bills that were like, it was gold standard money. Yeah. And they were beginning to phase it out. But they were like, if, if we just use only money with the serial numbers, it'll be easier to track what if these people try to spend this money after the fact. Right. So they put

together $50,000. They put it in this wooden box. Now, of course, when the kidnapping happens, it's, it's everywhere. It's the hugest story in the nation and remained so, of course, it got even worse after, but yeah, it's

the hugest story. So when they know that there's a kidnapping and there's a ransom note, a retired school teacher named Dr. John Condon who idolized Charles Lindbergh puts an ad in the paper saying that he volunteers to be the go-between and make the ransom drop at the cemetery.

No, don't trust him. Lindbergh and the kidnappers both say good, sounds good. So then what is this world? You have to see it in the in the Nova special. The Nova special is really good because it has so much footage. It's so crazy. I love it. There's footage from

there's footage from the trial. Like it's intense. Yeah. But this old guy, it's just another one of those things where like it's a guy in a three-piece suit. So everyone went, yeah, do whatever you want. Come on into this thing. And he is a blowhard and he, you know, they say he had good

intentions, but he made himself. He's one of those people he was like looking for the spot. Opportunist, yeah. So basically he goes he goes to the cemetery to make that drop and he hands over a box full

and it's a wooden box full of $50,000 in these special bills. And he exchanges that for a note saying where baby Charlie can be found. The kidnappers take the box of money, they give the note, they disappear

and the information in the note turns out to be incorrect. So it was all of that was for nothing. Yeah. So they still don't have the baby and the kidnappers have gotten away scot-free. Yeah. So you saw it coming. Yeah.

So six weeks later on May 12 a truck driver driving from Princeton to Hopewell pulls over because he has to use the bathroom. He walks into the woods a little bit. No. This is five miles away from the hope Lindbergh's Hopewell

estate or home and this truck driver finds the decomposing body of Charlie Lindbergh and the police and the coroner and everybody determined, eventually determined the baby was killed the night that he was taken.

So it turned out that his skull was fractured on one side and then there was a hole in the other side of the skull, the opposite side, kind of backed by the ear. And so the police report

said that the officer that went and tried to get the body pulled the remains out of the mud had used a stick and the officer thought he had poked a hole through the skull

with the stick. But in this episode of NOVA there's a man named Dr. John Butts and he's the North Carolina chief medical examiner. John Butts. John Butts. He's a retired medical examiner but he's also an expert on the death of suspicious death in children. Oh my god. I want

to talk to him forever. Right. And he's so, I love when those guys come on and they're just like, nope. And it's basically he's saying you could not the way, especially children's skulls are, you couldn't poke there's no way to do that. And so even if

whether or not this person was just simply mistaken and freaked out or they were trying to mislead he believes that the original wound, oh, because the theory was from that the theory became that when the kidnappers were coming back down that ladder

this story has stuck this part I know and it fucking is horrifying. Yeah. They think they thought at the time the kidnappers were coming down the ladder with the baby and drop the baby or fell forward at the because wasn't one of the ladder rungs broken.

Yeah. This ladder is the rickety dumbest looking thing you've ever seen. It's truly like if we went and made our own ladder. I mean anything's possible with a homemade three tiered ladder. Yeah. Insane. And when you see this thing and you can see it in the Nova thing

it's like it doesn't even make sense. But the problem is with that theory the fracture that only accounts for the fracture on one side. Right. And it doesn't include they're just the baby had more injuries than that. And they I think probably

maybe in the hopes of simplifying but basically they weren't taking into the count and so Dr. John Butts was like that baby must have been laying down and there is a blow to one side of the baby's head which caused the hole by the ear and the pressure of that caused the fracture on the other

side. That's that's his theory personally. Yeah. Yeah. No Butts about it. Is that a TV show? Ah and then he just goes through and is talking about horrible child deaths. Everyone's like wait I thought this was he's like and this out went and there's no Butts about it and everyone's crying.

I don't want to talk about this anymore. Two and a half years after the body is discovered it's basically goes cold for a little while. Yeah. A man in New York State buys 98 cents worth of gas but he pays with a

$10 gold certificate with this old money. Yeah. And the attendant cites it and writes down his license plate number not because he knows it has anything to do with the Lindbergh kidnapping but he knows that money's that currency is going out of

use and he wants to make sure he writes the license plate number down because he wants to make sure he can get a hold of that guy if the bank doesn't take his money. What a crazy world Tilly living in that certain currency is going out and not going to exist anymore. Yeah. Imagine just living it

it's so old timey. It is but it all looks exactly the same. It's the same design as modern money. It just had yellow like gold things on it. I don't I didn't look up what the gold standard was. I didn't but you know if you're interested in currency

or the U.S. meant I urge you to take a tour and educate yourself. I can't do it all. So the cool thing is then he immediately calls the bank the bank recognizes that it's on this list of the Lindbergh ransom money

and they call the police. So why do I think I can hold a huge cup of coffee and do this at the same time. So that license plate is tracked back to a car that belongs to a man named Bruno Richard Hotman. Hotman is a German immigrant

carpenter who lives in the Bronx and when the police searches home they find a little less than $14,000 which is exactly two thirds of the ransom money. No way. I'm sorry one third of the ransom money. Got it.

I thought yes. 50,000 half is 25. Yeah. A third. I wrote two thirds. Well the other person has two thirds. Right. It's the That's what you meant. It's the third that's

not the two thirds. Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to say. He has so basically he has the money with the serial numbers in his house he also has a handgun. They're like it's this guy. Then they look up that he has a criminal

record where he's from in Germany he had two arrests one for climbing up a ladder into the second story window. What? To break into the mayor's house. Shut your fucking face. To break into the mayor's house. That's Germany. To the whole mayor of Germany. And

the other crime was for holding up two women who were pushing a baby carriage. Dude you're like a map. It's a map and it's like here's one thing I'm not afraid to do. Here's this other thing I'm interested in doing. Also I love ladders.

Also god damn it I love to make a ladder. Now on that very topic if you picture so this ladder needs to be tall enough to reach a second story window. So it's like he made a normal ladder then he made a slightly smaller ladder that would slide up within

that ladder and then a third one. Like that's how Rickety and Janky this ladder wouldn't climb that thing. And they find that the third section of this ladder there's a piece of it that's made from

yellow pine and when they look up into Richard Hopman's attic the floor boards of the attic are made of yellow pine. Dude. They pull that shit down they pull that piece of the ladder off and they match it exactly. So it's one more piece

of like confirming evidence that this guy was there and had something to do with it. Oh sorry also the bottom legs of the bottom part of the ladder broke and that's what led them to that theory that the baby fell and cracked it.

Because the part of the ladder that he left there the bottom legs were broken or had cracked is Rickety a shit it's like why even. Just get four people to and climb on their backs it would be safer.

Okay so all of that all of that combined gets Richard Hopman arrested on September 19th 1934 and talk about this like how it all went so fast back then and there was no but also

the world was watching this. Yeah crime. I mean that when that baby was found dead they said the the nation hadn't mourned like that since Lincoln was assassinated and didn't mourn like that again until JFK was assassinated. Right.

It was like this was everybody's baby and it was this hero this American hero's child. Yeah but we still have it's almost why we have you know the peels and shit today is because you didn't have that back then. Yeah.

You just fucking killed Ethel and Julius Rosenberg out the fucking bat. They were their solution to everything was just okay great kill them we get we solved it now now we don't do the paperwork. Kill them before they ask any questions about what happened. Yes quick kill quick beat them for 10 hours and then kill them

as quickly as possible. They confessed kill them. Kill kill kill kill kill. Okay so he stood trial January 2nd 1935 and he's found guilty on February

13th of the same year and given the death sentence now at one point he maintained his innocence throughout the whole time including when the cops were like if you give us the names of your co-conspirators we will reduce your sentence we'll make sure that you don't

get the death penalty and he he just maintained his innocence and didn't give any names so on April 3rd 1936 Bruno Richard Hotman is put to death in the electric chair by the state of New Jersey yeah

so now there's all kinds of theories of course about this murder that was it so the case closed case closed they got the guy and you can see in this Nova Special they have clips of him on literally on the stand

during court and the lawyer is yelling at him so loudly like there's no microphones obviously it looks like he's just sitting in a chair raised up above everybody and the lawyer's like and he's like yelling the place is packed

it was a total zoo the surrounding area was packed with like thousands of people just being at the courthouse every day it's super crazy so yeah they just wanted it over they were just like done and they were like oh

he's doing the thing a guilty person would do which is like no no no I didn't do it the whole time and yeah like even the phrase the Lindbergh baby like that was like it was a huge story it was a huge story and people wanted someone to pay

this was like this tragic thing that seemed unnecessary and they wanted someone to pay so here's the theories of course the first and strongest is that he didn't act alone nobody thinks he acted alone the liquor the latter was too rickety

somebody needed to hold that stupid thing from the bottom because it was like the dumbest latter of all time yeah once he got inside there's a baby that would make noise so you have to have you know they're gonna have to subdue that baby somehow

and then they have to get back out and back down the ladder holding it still nothing about it just couldn't they just don't see how it could be done by one person and there's just so much organizing and you know stuff to do

also later they do handwriting comparisons they were 15 overall the police don't know officially because Lindbergh was like you don't get to be a part of this but there were 15 different ransom letters that were written they communicated a bunch

and you know with the old retired school teacher Lindbergh they were masterminding all of it and at the time and in court they proved the handwriting expert at the time proved that it was Richard Hopman's handwriting on all the letters

but of course modern day and in this episode of NOVA they're just like it is inconclusive and it's that super cool modern handwriting analysis where they're taking the you know like two letters that always get written together like an E and a T or whatever and then they're showing how it's like all

percentages it's very scientific of like this matches this doesn't because of course in every letter a couple things match and then some things don't so it's all total like percentages and by the numbers and it depends on what letters are written before and after them

and where they place in the word I love that shit it's very cool and you can kind of see that it doesn't match from a distance but they needed it they needed it to be at the time so they believe that other people

were involved also they because of how many things had to go right with a kidnapping like that they believe that it was somebody that worked on the staff in one of the houses it was an inside job oh shit and they believe that this is a man

named Lloyd Gardner who's a professor Rutgers and he has this is his theory and it's a very strong interesting theory strong strongly interesting so it's his theory that it's there was somebody inside the house that was helping set it up

and they're the only also the only other people that would have known that the Lindbergh family would have gone to the Hopewell house because they were full time at the other house so that's like very few people would have known that would have known to go to the unfinished house

that they didn't live in yet the police interviewed a servant who worked at the Englewood estate named Violet Sharp and they interviewed her twice she gave contradictory stories between the first and second one when they went back for the third interview

she runs upstairs drinks silver polish and dies within minutes oh that sounds chill she just immediately commits suicide oh my god so then that's very suspicious right and it's like well something's going on

in this household okay so Lloyd Gardner's three and then maybe other people's two and this pulls in some dark shit in Charles Lindbergh's life he had so Charles Lindbergh had a sister who died of heart failure and he started

he was a researcher he was an inventor he did a bunch of other shit just besides being in the light he was in the Air Force and being a pilot and all that stuff he did a bunch of other stuff too he started working with

a Nobel Prize winning scientist named Dr. Alexis Carroll and Dr. Carroll had won the Nobel Prize because he did all this work in vascular surgery and so Dr. Carroll Lindbergh

went and worked with him as a medical engineer because they were trying to figure out essentially how to build a heart pump to keep people alive if they had heart failure and that's the work they did but the work that they

people didn't know so much about is that Dr. Alexis Carroll was a huge proponent of eugenics oh dear and if you don't know eugenics was this kind of pseudo scientific belief that got very popular in the 30s in America because

of this doctor that we that human beings should be breeding to make that basically genetically superior people are the only people that should reproduce the master race yes and that we should sterilize

anybody who's physically or mentally imperfect it was gaining tons of popularity and Dr. Carroll told Lindbergh he was the perfect example of the ubermensch superman that eugenics was aiming

toward which of course you know our boy Charles Lindbergh was like oh really tell me more I love this idea that I'm the one everyone should want to be like and I already was the international superstar and then you go to J.P. Morgan's fucking daughter

like Jesus Christ master race so he becomes this huge proponent of fucking eugenics which basically becomes a very shrouded pro-nazi anti-semitic movement but it just has this

super creepy face of like you know the American dream is almost how they were trying to market it it's super gross okay so so the theory is that Charlie Lindbergh Charles Lindbergh's first son was not a healthy baby

he had a mild form of rickets rickets is the disease in little kids if they have it bad enough it basically makes their legs touch and like their legs are bowed and they're really deformed Charlie's wasn't that bad so that's some people argue that

this health argument isn't strong enough or like the case can't be made but the theory is that they wouldn't have that the family was very secretive about what all these medical problems were he also didn't have a closed fontanel which I love that word

cause that's what Holly Hunter says in Raising Arizona there's something about I swear that you mentioned that just now because there's something about this case that has always reminded me of Raising Arizona and that they take a ladder and climb up to the second floor and steal a fucking baby

yeah it's kind of exactly it's like the comedy version of this horrible story and my little fontanel mind his fontanel I love him so much mind his fontanel so okay so the fontanel wasn't closed

it was a soft spot on a baby's head and he was two years old so that's very late for that to be happening also there's a doctor I think on the conspiracy show who was talking about that when the baby

when the remains were found there were deeper inner organs that were missing and at the time I think the medical examiner they wrote it off as well it was just exposure and wild animals have gotten to it

and this woman in the conspiracy one goes yeah but you wouldn't be missing you wouldn't be missing your heart you wouldn't be missing half of your lung but not your heart they're not going to be like

I'm a big fan of lungs I'm going to take this piece it's not a pick and choose situation it doesn't make sense so there was a bunch of surgeries that there was a lot of things wrong and just nobody knew about it it was like the secret

and that the plan was because this was a thing that got done a lot back then that the plan was that it was Charles Lindbergh's idea to kidnap the baby then the baby's missing and then meanwhile they can anonymously check that two year old into an institution

and basically institutionalize the child so that he doesn't ever the world will never know that his genes are not perfect and he is not this super bench oh I did not know this yeah well this is a theory so this isn't obviously proven and this is real

take it up with Nova if you don't like it but I think it's fascinating because there's nothing about that story that makes sense the mystery of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping is why would you kill a baby

without the money for it what monster would just immediately same night before anyone gets a chance to pay off anything just kill the child it doesn't make sense and then keep going with it yeah and also then just

that those behaviors are connected like if you're into eugenics there's some thing going on inside you that is really gross and really creepy and it continued on so basically after the kidnapping and then the body

being found the public attention and pressure was so great on the Lindbergh family and apparently in one of these stories they said that there was another kidnapping threat against their baby John their new baby so they were

given diplomatic passports and they traveled under assumed names and they took a boat like they left in the middle of the night and took a boat to England and ended up going to live with family that they had there in in Wales is where they ended up going to Wales and then

they went off to some island off the coast of France they would just like tried to get away from everybody but so they lived in Europe for the next three years but the next three years was 35 to 38 in fucking Europe and the Nazis were coming

to power and the Nazis had heard all about how much Charles Lindbergh was into eugenics and they were like guess what we're into eugenics too why don't you come and take a tour of the fucking factory so that basically he came out

as a very huge anti-Semite and a big pro-Hitler like he was his whole thing was like I don't know why Hitler has to be so extreme about everything but they do have great ideas he was that guy and nobody was telling them like I'm not a Nazi but

I love their ideas and they're organized or all that bullshit so basically he gets asked to return to the United States to be a consultant for the US Air Force because I think the military was like we're about to get into this thing

at that point when they come back he and Anne had had five children and they say over the years his kids only saw him a couple months a year that he was really detached distant father and then so

none of that explains the kidnapping and none of that attributes anything and there was lots of distant fathers that knew that but then here's another weird twist in 2003 these people these German citizens come forward and announce that they are secretly

they were secretly fathered by Charles Lindbergh in the 50s what? seven adult people so what happened was and this turns out to be fucking true that in the late 50s he goes over to Germany

and he starts having an affair he has an affair with a woman named Brigitte Hessheimer he has three children with Brigitte and then Brigitte's sister Mariette who's a painter he has two kids

and then with his private secretary in Europe her name is Valeska I just have the name Valeska that he has a son and daughter with her

oh my god dude all seven kids they're born between 58 and 67 and in 1974 Charles Lindbergh died of lymphoma and ten days before his death he wrote letters to all three women begging them not

to reveal the secret and so none of them did and the only way they found out was one of, I believe it was Brigitte's daughter, I could be wrong about that but I believe it was Brigitte's daughter they all had suspicions because he told them

they met him and would see him once a year maybe twice a year over the years but he said his name was shit I won't be able to remember it I don't have it written down it was something weird like

Carl Kent or something like that just a weird fake name that's the only way they knew their father but then, did you get it? thank you oh, Karu Kent C-A-R-E-U make that shit up man

Karu Kent would show up and be like it's me your dad, Merry Christmas Bye so Brigitte's daughter finds love letters and photographs puts it together they all get their DNA tested and then they find out it's

seven children that he fathered it was busy and it goes along with his eugenics thing of I am the one that needs to propagate and have tons of kids so I'm gonna go and have all these affairs and just have kids all over the place yeah I have to it's for the fucking greater good

it's for the greater good of fucking Germany oh shit so so I mean that's just kind of like an interesting weird creepy thing where it's just like who is this person who is this mystery man that like

the world held up is this great human being because he made a solo flight across the Atlantic the good part about this horrible story that basically rocked the nation and was the hugest story like it's all

anybody talked about for years and years is that the day after this baby was kidnapped congress passed a law making kidnapping a capital offense so that's when they put it into effect that if you take a person over state lines oh right yeah it's a capital offense

and basically that's it was and it was called it then and you know the remains popular at the time it was the crime of the century that's incredible that they never found any the other two thirds

people that it could have been there in if you watch this nova special there's a guy on there that in it reminds me of like a lot of the black Dahlia stuff where there's a guy on there who's like my father knew a person and he overheard this conversation and it could have been this guy and it could have been this guy feels like it would have been

that someone related to that the dude the one third dude yeah brother brother in law it's always the brother in law well because he was this german immigrant there was other people on the city block that he lived on that were from the same city that he was from in germany

and so the landlord of this guy who says his father overheard a conversation that that man's landlord was from the same city as as hotman so the theory it's very strong theory but it is just theory and it kind

of goes all over because it's basically this guy's father overheard a conversation where they all talked about the word Englewood and they said the name Bruno and and then there's pictures and whatever but it's it nothing is conclusive so and didn't include it

they never found the other money right like no one ever spent it well but there's the one guy that they suspected one of the two people that they really this guy knew and they suspected took a well at the time would have been a $70,000

world cruise holy shit with his wife and there's pictures of him on the cruise and they came he came back from Europe after hotman was was found guilty so basically

they took a cruise got the fuck out of dodge went around the world on a boat and then when they heard that they got the guy and they were sending him to the electric chair they're like okay we can go back now that was him he's good I think it was him yeah yeah that's crazy it's but the it's

very sinister and and definitely unproven but the idea that he just wanted this not perfect yeah out of the house yeah so or maybe what they were gonna do is like take take the baby out put him in a facility

something accidentally happened and he died maybe they were gonna replace him with like a adopted perfect baby that they were going to say with him oh maybe you know could be I mean when you see there's lots of they have lots of home video and these black

and white videos of this baby it's not like this baby looks like anything is wrong yeah but I feel like if he was under this pressure to be the perfect human being and that that's the whole theory of eugenics is like perfection perfection yeah

then you can't have a baby that has turned in knees rickets you know like is that is even in any way developmentally slow yeah maybe the baby that they found that was dead wasn't Charlie maybe they put Charlie in a fucking institution

killed some other baby to be like no Charlie's dad and then they could like have this sick baby that they visit whenever they want maybe that's I think that's it you've done it I did it you know what I mean though you've acted in you've out

in another twist yes well but that basically they did it yeah that's even darker because then they're killing a baby right yeah yeah it's I mean the whole thing is it would be nice to have some answers but let's DNA test that shit

go on genealogy dotnet test that shit right get on there well fuck that was great oh thanks I love it I mean it was fun it was fun to watch a TV show and then just write down what they I gotta give that a shot sometime

I feel like I'm gonna get better about not doing that I remember my friend who had never heard the podcast before he listened to it we were at the work we worked together and we went to work the next he goes you just retold a TV show and I was like yeah I do that

sometime I always I had his voice in my head when I sit down to do that but that's all I want to do we've been quite busy listen we look and listen to us always what's your fucking hooray this week Georgia I have to one of them is that

I took Twitter off of my phone well fucking hooray for you thank you it didn't even cross my mind that that was an option like I was like I just can't stop looking and scrolling and seeing this news and bad news and then when it's just like dumb news like shit about Kanye I get angry yeah like I just got and then it was like

someone wrote like I'm taking Twitter off my phone and I was like oh my god I didn't even realize that that was an option so I did it and I'm having withdrawals but I think it's for the best and then you're missing some quality content from me because I'm procrastinating so much all I can all I can do

is is tweet because I'm like sitting there supposed to be turning something in yeah and I'm like but I have this good idea okay let me know if anything good comes up let me know if there's any quality golden state killer updates I will for sure that's the only

place I was getting updates okay but then I couldn't stop checking okay my other one is the TV show Barry oh that I'm enjoying so much it's so good it's what's his name Barry Bill Hader Barry

Bill Hader it's it's so good yeah and charming and funny and dark I love it Bill Hader plays hitman who has to pretend he's on a hit many pretends he's an actor in LA and I wanted to say it earlier but it's basically every conversation we over here it's like

it's this TV show in that it's so fucking funny yeah I liked I've only seen the first two but I loved it and there's so many good Henry Winkler so great and that you know I went to camp with his daughter she was in a cat we were in a cabin was she nice yeah yeah everyone

wanted to be friends with her because she was the Fonz's daughter yeah that'd be tough she was nice I think she's like a preschool teacher now or something lovely you're just like I'm sure I've already bragged to you but we when we worked on Hollywood Squares when we wrote for Ellen we were just

like two writers that came with her and he was the EP and we when you do stuff like that of like bring your own writers yeah there are people who are hired to write for that show that do not like it yeah he's like who the fuck are you coming in and but everyone was super nice to us but I

was always just like so uncomfortable and Henry Winkler came and it was like are the Karen's in here and he acted like he did the exact opposite of that like he basically came and like pretended like we were special and I just remember looking at him like you a did not have to do this yeah

be no one ever does this and see it's like he's the mayor of Hollywood like he knows how beloved he is you know what's so funny is I remember is like a fifth grader after camp was over we all got taken back to the meeting where the parents would pick everyone up like after two weeks of being

away all crying and then she was like come be my dad oh and I look up and I'm like Henry Winkler and he shook my hand and looked down and mean nice to meet like he was so nice yes and he's so fucking funny yeah he's so good

on the show it's the parts written perfectly for him but like that intense acting to it's he's just so good he's really yeah it's a really it's a really good show yeah well I have to say mine mine is I tweeted about this but

I was watching my friend Bridger told me to watch a chef's table pastry which is a new season right and I think it's slightly shorter than their normal ones it seems like a little specialty one they put out and the there's say there's five

the third or fourth one is this guy in Spain named Jordy Roka and he is basically has been named the top pastry chef in the world a bunch of times does he make those beautiful they look like apples or

pears and they're like glistening and gorgeous and then they crack open and there's stuff inside and there's like meringue inside yes I follow him on Instagram like he's super beautiful yeah but his I don't know I didn't see him but his pastries are gorgeous no there it's art

it's not it doesn't seem like a dessert in any it doesn't look like you're supposed to eat it at all yeah and the first one so he's super hot he's well he's just it's the thing I it's a thing I have yeah he's very swarthy with a big patrician

nose and he but like but very soft eyes and he talks about so his older brother's on the restaurant his is one older brothers Somalia his older brothers the head chef it's this Michelin it was

a one-star Michelin rated restaurant already and they tried to get him to work there he's 12 years younger than them oh my god so they were like you have to come and be the waiter well he was like a party guy and he's just like whatever I don't care and he never really like caught on and then he finally asked to get moved

into the kitchen because the waiters worked so late and worked so hard that he didn't want to do it so he's like I'll be in the kitchen and he was just kind of like messing around the kitchen kind of sucking and then he got moved into the pastry section because they had this shoot I'm not going to be able to

remember his name but like really world famous pastry chef who was like here have him be in my department then he's not being like hounded by his brothers all the time like he always is and he can come and I'll teach him how to do pastry well then and they show this thing

he makes and it's called the the city that they're that this restaurant and it is like it's called I'll never remember how to say it but it's like I thought it was I thought we were in Italy the first two times I watched it I assumed we were in Italy because it all looked like Italy and felt like

Italy but it's Spain and say it's like it's Genoa or something like that and the first thing they show that he made is called the Flowers of Genoa and he makes he takes the strip of what looks like fruit roll up and he cuts it out it's the

skyline of their city and then he makes it it's 3D so he's having part of it stand up but then he paints the plate underneath so that when you look at it it looks like this 3D trick of the eye where there's flowers

there's these little things you have to see it when I was watching it they reveal they do the thing where they show him making it and then it just says Flowers of Genoa whatever the name the city is and I on the couch want oh my god like it's that incredible looking

and then he's like he's talking in it about how his brother he had a really big nose growing up and his brothers would always make the joke of like calling him and then he would turn his head and everyone would duck and it's all the man is beautiful and you can tell he doesn't know that

or understand it and it's that thing you just go like it's that's how it is with everybody everybody thinks yeah these horrible things about themselves because of their asshole bullies and siblings or whatever and he's like this magical artist so he based his desserts

basically made this restaurant go from like a one star Michelin which is a huge accomplishment anyway to a three star Michelin rated restaurant where it's just incredible I'm telling you the whole episode and I don't need to yeah I love it I'm gonna have a ton of coffee I just love him I

love like the idea that he he didn't even know that that's what he wanted to do or that it wasn't like he was trained for it like all his life yeah he like discovered it and is so good at it like I love it I love it I'm gonna watch it I love him also we

whispered the whole time which is kind of my jam anyway a chef's table is always it's just one of the best made television shows there is okay we're gonna I'm gonna watch it okay yeah that's it right and hooray go to myfavoritmurder.com for whatever I don't know if you need something

for your needs and if you want to if you want to follow along with us as we go on our European tour join the fan club cult join that fan cult because we're going to start giving you that content that we promised of you know special shit that you only get in the fan cult

that's right thanks for listening and stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye goodbye Elvis you want a cookie bye bye