My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 122 - Surprise! It’s Paul Holes

Episode Date: May 24, 2018

This week, crime journalist Billy Jensen joins Georgia and Karen for a Golden State Killer case update AND THEN PAUL HOLES SHOWS UP!!!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Then maybe we should start this very special episode. This is the most special episode. Welcome to my favorite murder. The podcast where we go to a studio that we never go to and record there where it feels really weird to record. And professional. There's no cats. We're wearing headphones, which is odd.

Here we are. But we have special guests. Yeah, we have special guests today. Plural. When have we had guests? Not a lot. I think Guy Brando has been a guest. And that's it, right?

And our guest today has been a guest. Which is about to happen now. Now it is. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mr. Billy Johnson. Hello, ladies. How are you doing? Hello. All you murderinos out there.

Yes. Hi. Thanks for being here. This is a special episode. This is a special episode. And you guys are definitely still jet lag. It's special because it's the first one we're recording back from our European 2018 European tour.

That's right. Which was very exciting. Oh, the choir's here. Hold on a second. Hang on. Let me close that door. We left the back door open. That's how much we're not used to recording in the studio.

Doors are open. Thanks. Okay. Thanks. So we're back from Europe. Back from Europe. We have jet lag. We have jet lag.

Georgia has a cold. I'm cold. I'm going to repeat everything you say. But the fun part is this is we finally get to do the episode where we like recap and go back over the Golden State Killer case arrest. And then we have a very special Colin guest. Yeah. Surprise, right?

Yeah. Are we keeping a surprise? It's a surprise. Yeah, it's a surprise. We'll keep a surprise. I might. When we introduce him, I'll... Oh, I already said it was a him.

Oh, shit. Oh. Now they all know it's Paul Hulls. Oh, shit. I wanted it to be Carol Daly. God damn it. Where's Erica Hutchcraft with you now? Well, Billy, since this is your show, would you...

What is the foremost kind of update piece of information of this case since... I guess since the press conference is when we last talked to you? One thing is that this guy really didn't have a lot of friends. He was not... And what I've did is it was so strange when... As soon as it happened, and you guys are some of the first that I was talking to when it was happening when I found out at one o'clock in the morning in the bed in Chicago, a flip switched in my head and it was all about, okay, everything went away.

Everything about the homework evidence and his shoe patterns and all that, that all went away and it was all about build a timeline and it was all about what other crimes has he done. So I've been reaching out and trying to find anybody that might know this guy to build a timeline of where he's been and then also what other crimes that he's been, that he could be involved with. And there's not a lot of people that were friendly with him. We know from the people in Exeter that he was kind of...

He very much kept to himself on the police force. Everybody would joke around, pal around, and he was kind of like very serious, very serious. And we're trying to track down his Navy people, Ken and all the people in the SAC Police Department. We're trying to track down all these people. One of the things that I've been doing just via Twitter and via a couple Facebook pages that I had launched when the book started is having anybody reach out to me. Before it happened, before he was caught, I had two people reach out to me and say that they were actually, they encountered him at one point.

And one woman said that he broke into her house, was right around the same time period. He saw that she was there and heard that there was somebody else in there and he decided not to do anything because it sounded like he didn't realize somebody was in the house. And he just said to her, you really need to fix your screen door and then walk down. So I had that information. I said, well, can I give that to the police? Because did you file a police report? She said, yes, I did.

I was like, well, there might be something in that police report because we had none of it. Me and Paul Haynes looked in Michelle's hard drive. We had none of that. So we said, well, maybe they don't know about it either. Maybe it just slid under the radar. Maybe there might be something in there that, oh, a neighbor saw this kind of car and then it could lead to something.

So that was like three weeks before he was caught and it had nothing to do with it because we all know what happened. But since I've gotten a couple of tweets at me and I've talked to people and interviewed them and realized that this guy very well might have attacked people before he started. Everyone is kind of like, there's no way he started at 30 years old, right? And he, you know, it's a very easy narrative and it's a very convenient narrative to say, okay, he started as the ransacker. He probably started as a peeper.

Then he started going into people's houses and ransacking. Then he decided to go on and rape people inside the houses, then rape a person with a couple and then ended up killing. That makes sense to people because there's that escalation. But what if he was attacking people before that? A guy texted me and we've gotten into this conversation. I talk to him every day now and his mother was attacked on the street. She was hitchhiking.

Her mother was attacked on the street and he showed her, you know, she was raped and it was a possible murder. It was an attempted murder. He actually drove over her with this car. Wow. Wait, sorry. Was this in Visalia? No, this wasn't in Visalia.

But this was in, I don't want to exactly say where it was, but it was in a town that he's been in. Okay. So it was before everything had happened that we knew about, but it was around the time of the ransackers actually, it was like right before it. And she had never seen, they never solved it. They never had any, you know, they had one suspect, but he didn't pan out. Her, she's had tons of surgeries, you know, it's really affected her.

And she, he showed her the picture and she started to shake and she really thinks that she had a hundred percent ID on this guy. Wow. Now that could be it. I don't want to mention names or names or anything like that. So, you know, I hooked him up with the DA. I don't, I want to, whether it was him or not, I just want, I want to get this guy justice because it was a horrible story and I'm going to get it out there.

And if it wasn't him, it was obviously somebody else and we're going to try and work on that. Whether they kept the rape kit is the question because we know that Sacramento threw away the rape kits, thank God for Paul and Contra Costa that they kept those rape kits. Because they used to just throw stuff away because the statute of limitations was up. So I've been thinking a lot about the statute of limitations from this case. These all these cases and the, and them throwing the rape kits away because of the statute of limitations and how now we're all testing these old backlog rape kits and, you know, everyone wants to fucking strangle the statute of limitations.

I wonder if there's someone out there, there's some way we can make it so that if you hadn't tested it before the statute of limitations was up, you know, it can be extended somehow because it's not on you that the fucking rape kit wasn't tested and run through the system. Yeah. Like the normal rules shouldn't apply because the normal rules didn't apply. Right. Because the due diligence wasn't done. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the fact that we now know that, now that the floodgates are open and we've been screaming for the rooftops that we should be doing familial DNA and doing it this way for a while. That's what we'll get into. But the fact that there's still rape kits that haven't been tested and now that they've been tested and the profiles have been made, but what are they doing with those profiles and where are they putting them?

And it's such, it's the biggest travesty for me and American justice system is that, you know, the trauma that somebody goes through from a sexual assault and then the trauma that you have to go through for actually telling somebody and then on top of that going through the exam and then having somebody just put it in a locker for years and years. Not only that and that person's justice, but it's the next person's justice. Right. It's the next woman or the next male's justice. So, you know, every one of those rape kits should be running through familial right now,

in my opinion. And also for the other reason, we actually just talked about this in some city we were in on the tour because it also is keeping free somebody who should not be free. That's it's the, the, the justice should be executed on that rapist because that's that idea that this, well, this happened, but you know, it's not a priority or it doesn't matter that much where it's like, it absolutely should be just as much of a priority as murder. Right. I mean, the idea that that, that has somehow, you know, that the way people look at it is

like it's a lesser crime or that it's less than anything. That's kind of the cool part about this story really coming to the fore so much is like people hearing 50 rapes in the seventies and I think it's that, you know, it's like it was a time where it was okay, it's calm down. It's not that big of a deal. Right. Get all of your life. Yeah.

And think about how many, I mean, we still hear so much about how many sexual assaults are not reported. Right. Think about how many sexual reports were not reported back then. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the police officers, and we've talked about this, certain police officers that don't, you know, are not good with sexual assaults, especially back then, you know, when they

were being reported. Yeah. And there's no training. There was no, the idea of sensitivity training was a joke. Right. And yeah. Right. Advocates, no such fucking thing.

Yeah. Also, that makes me think of the fact that it's, you know, the bone chilling reveal that he was a policeman in Auburn. Right. Then you think, what if that fucking guy was the guy that came to your house after you were attacked? I mean, like, it opens that door, it's just like horror after horror with this, with this case, but like, the idea that he was a person that had that much authority and power as

an Auburn policeman and that he was living this double life is, is, once again, this whole case is so cinematically dramatic and insane. It's almost two over the top. It's over the top. Do you, is the, a strange wife coming forward at all or is she not speaking? She's not speaking now. To anyone? Neither is Bonnie.

To the cops? I don't know if she's taking, she's taking to the cops or not. We can, we can talk about that when we get Paul. Is she our surprise guest, right with that? You know, so, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll, yeah, we might as well call him now, but, you know, so I had the opportunity, he was going to come to CrimeCon anyway. We were doing, you know, CrimeCon is like Comic Con for crime. It was in Nashville.

We were, we had two presentations about the Golden State Killer, which we had to completely tear up. Right. We do. And I really wanted to, you know, and we move, the first one was going to be just a deep dive into the evidence and me and Paul Haynes were going to go through and we're going to do this and that. And we're going to say like, you know, what about this piece of evidence?

No, that's junk. And this looks like the best sketch and everything. So that went to hell, but it was going to be in a small room. They said, no, we got to move you into the bigger room. So we go in, we look out, there's like 2,500 people in this room. And I wanted to give Paul his due, you know, because Paul didn't get to speak at the press conference and it was just sort of leaking out that, that he was the guy that really saw this thing.

And Paul was, you know, Paul very much, you know, because we were talking about the book and we were there because it was for Michelle's book, you know, Paul would say that he felt that Michelle was his partner. So you know, it made sense for him to come out. So we brought him out and it was like Beatlemania. It was, it was like nothing you've ever, he gets a standing ovation and then after everybody is trying to take selfies with him and he can't, he can't walk five feet without somebody grabbing him.

And you know, it made me smile just because, and the reason why I was very upset that they didn't put him or put anybody else of the real investigators that were in the trenches at that press conference, they wouldn't put him on the screen is that what I want to see is in true crime, when you work in true crime for so long, the biggest thing that comes to you is that there's so many supervillains. We're surrounded by supervillains, Manson, Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer, name the superheroes. And you can't, you know, you might say John Wall, sure you might say, you know, this person or that person or maybe like a local policeman, but we don't put them out there.

And you know, I was thinking about Paul is like, if we're going to get a superhero out of any of this, it's going to be Paul. And Paul is going to be somebody that it, listen, if he's going to have the hot for holes hashtag and he's going to be this, and he's going to be this, I did not start that right. I did not. Now, I think I started it. But if you, you know, if he's going to be a heartthrob, that's then so be it.

Because what I want is, I want a little kid to be watching the screen the way that they did back in the day, when they would see Jack Webber or FBI guys up on the screen and say, I want to be like that guy, you know, or a little girl seeing, you know, Erica Hutchcraft or Carol Daly and being like, I want to be like her. And those are the heroes that we need to be pushing in front of the camera, just because you know, we have such this imbalance in this explosion that we've seen with true crime. And you know, they're the kind of people that will take this, you know, ridiculous, funny hashtag power and use it for good.

Yes, exactly. And if it puts it out there and then, you know, this case and the legacy of this case is all about not only solving this case, but solving so many other cases. And we've already seen it. The floodgates are open. We've already seen cases are going down and there's so many cases now that we can solve based on this one. And thank God it was a big one.

Yeah. Because if it was, if it was a smaller one or if it was a sort of nebulous one, you might get people saying, oh, you know, and we had that a little bit where people were saying there's privacy laws. There's this or that. Yeah. But, you know, nobody is really defending this guy and defending, you know, someone that had at least 50 rapes and 12 murders.

I want to talk about this. Should we bring out our special surprise guest? That, you know, well, here's what I was thinking, you know, he, he needs, he, he, he is the superhero of this story. And we were going to have him on the phone, but that door is open. Oh, no, Billy just went somewhere. Billy stepped out. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Nice. Nice to meet you. Paul Holes is in the building. Everyone is in the building. I thought Billy just walked off the podcast. I thought he got pissed and was gone. Oh my God, ladies and gentlemen, it's Paul Holes.

Hi. Hi, Georgia. Hi, Karen. Hi, Paul. Hi, Paul Holes. Paul Holes, Billy. Thanks for, for doing this. You're welcome.

I was up driving up the Sacramento, hitting him on his head, putting him in my truck. I came back down. It was a long night, but he's here. Oh my God. This is a surprise to Karen. I knew it was happening, but I'm still... You knew it was happening? Oh, yeah.

Oh, I read it through. I make sure I read it through Georgia. I said, I texted her. I said, um, did she like surprises? And it's like, no, she doesn't hate surprises. Okay. Can I just say this in my own defense, Paul Holes? First of all, I don't know if you heard that, but I did not start the Hot for Holes hashtag.

That was not me. No. It's not my style. No. But as we were just saying, I think that a lot of this excitement, and we were just talking about like, Crimecon and stuff, I think a lot of this excitement is kind of like an overly simplistic way of kind of giving you like a ticker tape parade in a way that you can't do anymore.

It's like we're doing it social media style. We're doing it murdering a style, but like, you know, you were the lighthouse keeper for decades on a case that should have or, you know, for whatever reason ended up not getting solved for so long and was so horrible. And like we've talked about it, like watching you talk about it on that ID special where you know every single fact, you know every single path. You seem as passionate as us, you're not detached from it. And you give like Michelle, who is, you know, one of us, so much credit, which means so

much to us. Well, and like when the cameras weren't on, when she first came to you, you welcomed her with open arms. Right. I mean, you just could not have done it better. So I think there's a lot of this is stupid, like it's very stupid and incredibly embarrassing. Any and silly and fun way of it just saying it's just a humongous. Thank you.

Yeah. Oh, well, you know, it's been, it's been just a surreal experience. Yeah. Tell us about this experience. What's it been like? Well, after the press conference when D'Angelo was announced, you know, I had with Jane Carson and Debbie Domingo, they had convinced me to go to crime con about a month prior. And so as we're marching down with D'Angelo, I didn't think there's any way I'd be able

to make it out to Nashville. I had no idea what I was walking and it was great. But my first, I guess, experience was I was walking in the hallway and it was late at night on a Thursday evening and this mother and daughter passed me by didn't pay any attention to them. And all of a sudden I hear this, Paul, and I look around and they're looking at me. And that's the first time I've ever been recognized by somebody I have no idea. And then for the course of the next two days, it was amazing in terms of all these murder

enos coming up to me and getting pictures. I didn't have a Twitter account, but my, you know, my, my wife's friends were all of a sudden saying, Hey, Paul's getting pictures of all these women. Where is he? What is going on? Can we talk about that for one second? Because first of all, the sincerest of apologies to Mrs. Holes, all of this is so out of control. Is she, does she like it?

Is she pissed? Like, is it? No, no, she, she's been a great sport about it. Okay, good. You know, she's the one that's actually watching and letting me know. Cause I, I'm so afraid to go on and Google myself cause I don't want to see what exactly is out there, but she's, she's been great about it. Take it from us.

But you know, at the same time, she didn't know what was going on at a crime con either. And then so I'd get the phone call and she's going, what is going on out there? She didn't know you'd have fan girls. So many. Well, it's so many. And guys. But it's like 90% women and, and also 90% women who have been watching you be a talking head on these shows for years, you know, you've seen the screen grabs from 10 years ago.

I'm learning that what gets out there on the internet stays out there forever. It's forever. It is. It is. And then since I've gotten a Twitter account, it's been one of those things where I've probably posted a couple of things going, Oh, what did I just do? Never delete it. That's just it.

So wait. Then a crime. Cause we had a couple of friends who were there. That was the most exciting thing. I was like the, my friend Katie Reif was a reporter for the AV club was there and I was like, you need to tell me every single thing that happens cause she was in the room too. And she was just like, the whole room just went insane. And then I got the report from Billy also when it was over, but it was like, it was cause

I was, I just wanted it to be what we thought it, you deserve. And what we wanted to see at the news conference, what's it called, press conference, we wanted to see, which is like you guys, which I know isn't professional, but in the background seeing you there, being like, you should just get up there and well, you know, at, at crime con when, when Billy pulled me out onto the stage, that was such a humbling experience. And yes, in many ways I've been the face of the investigation, but really I think everybody was applauding everybody that's been involved in the investigation. So that's, that's the thing that needs to get out there is that there's, there's, you

know, men and women that are still actively investigating the case. They have been on this case for in some instances, decades. And they aren't, they don't have the opportunity I have in order to be able to come out and be a public figure at this point. So, you know, I think that applause, I mean, it was, it's sent like just chills up my spine when I got it. Cause I never thought I'd be, you know, in front of that many people in a standing ovation. But again, I think that was an ovation for the team.

I'm going to say this right now cause I'm sitting right next to him. Paul has goosebumps right now. It's so exciting. Well, because as you both know this, and as they said in that press conference or whatever, but this doesn't happen that often. And so the idea that it's happened, we get to applaud the solving of a case, the trajectory all of it took. It was just like, can you tell us like the phone call that you got that the DNA was a

match? Can you, I bet that was insane. So that was, it was, um, I was out of state, you know, shopping for a house cause I'm in the process of moving out of California and at a restaurant at P.F. Chang's. Oh plug. That was a plug. We'll make a lot of money off that, thank you.

Sesame chicken. So had just finished eating and I get a call from Lieutenant Kirk Campbell, who's one of the investigators from Sacramento DA's office. And I see that he's calling and we had had the Angelo under surveillance. So I knew, okay, this call is an important phone call. So I go out and Kirk says, okay, you can't tell anybody except for Karen and Georgia. And, uh, he said the, the, the initial DNA results cause we had gotten a surreptitious sample SACSO had gotten a surreptitious sample from D'Angelo came back and though it's a,

it's a low level profile, which means it was not a complete DNA profile, but the lab is really excited with what they see. And you know, I, with my background, I was saying, what exactly do they have? And once he told me, I knew it was a guy and then I walk back in and we're getting our fortune cookies. Oh my God. And my wife is opening up her fortune cookie and all excited about what it says. You know, I could care less about what the fortune cookie says.

And you literally and truly can't tell your wife. Like you, that's a secret. Wait, you can't tell your, come on. I told her, but she, she read it on my face. Yeah. And I wasn't going to tell her in the restaurant cause I knew what the reaction would be. And so I'm trying to not tell her and she knew who had called. And next thing you know, she's like pushing me out the restaurant wanting to know what's

going on. And you still owe that P.F. Chang $62. They're also the surprise guy, the manager from F.E.F. Chang. I love it. Looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and prepping handled HelloFresh has you covered.

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Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges.

Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Do you still, sorry, do you talk to Carol Daley or do you like? Carol Daley and I communicated, but believe it or not, we had not met or even communicated up until about a couple of months ago. So that was one of those things in this case where, I mean, she is somebody that deserves so much credit for the work she did with the victims up in Sacramento. And if you ever got to see her reports, it was cutting edge in terms of recording all

the victimology, not only the circumstances of what happened, you know, what the offender did, what he said, which gave us insight into who this guy was, but also who the victims were. And that's very important when you're dealing with a fantasy motivated type of crime. So she did an amazing job. And I always was like, wow, this is, this is an amazing woman in terms of what she was doing back in the 1970s. And then I finally got to talk to her on the phone once, you know, some of the media attention

was coming out before we had even, you know, identified D'Angelo as being a person. And then afterwards I got to meet her in person for the first time. And that was a great experience. Yeah. She seems amazing. Amazing. I just rewatched the ID special to do the before, the arrest, after the arrest. What was it called?

Wait, there's still more to, we don't know who it, what is it? Unanswered questions? Yeah. It's called unanswered questions. The Golden State Killer. There's more to come. But I mean, it's really fascinating the, the, like you're saying the comprehensive job that she did, but also just like, she's just so on point to this day.

And then back then when you see those pictures and you see the video of her and like, don't be polite. Her, her don't be polite speech and all that stuff where you're just like this, she must have been one of a handful of women in that Sacramento County Sheriff's Advocate. Not only that, just across the country. I mean, think about how many sexual assaults that had happened that didn't have a carol daily there. That's why, what, what she was doing, like you said, was so groundbreaking.

Well, and I believe she was the first female assigned to investigations for Sac Sheriff's office. So you know that she was cutting edge. She blazed a trail. Yeah. The 70s sucked. It's very cool though, like she is kind of like that, one of those lights that comes up in the story too.

And you know, I don't know, she's, we should hear from her more, I think. That makes me, that makes me, can I ask a couple of specific questions that you probably can answer, Mr. Paul Halls, but you probably can about speaking of her speaking at the town halls. Was he there at any of them? Do we know? You know, the, that is something that I think we're still trying to figure out. You know, Carol has a memory of one of the victims standing up and speaking in front of

the town hall and he does, him and his wife do become victims later on. Now her memory has somewhat changed over time, which you would expect after four years. So that is going to be one of those questions as to, was he in the audience, saw this, this man and decided, I will show you who I am. How dare you speak against what I am doing, which I believe absolutely this offender would do. He's very vindictive. I believe some of the cases that involve males were selected based on who the males

were and what they had done to him either directly or indirectly, which ones of those victims at this point I don't know. And he very well could be in other town hall meetings, but right now it's speculation, but it does make sense with who he is. Do you think, so, so does that mean that he might have actually known some of the victims as far as, I know you can't answer any of this. Well, the reality is, is I don't know. Yeah.

And then that's one of the big questions that I have is, you know, I always marching down and investigating this case, I truly felt that this, the victim selection, he was multimodal. There are victims that he absolutely just followed home. There are victims that while he's out prowling a neighborhood, he stumbled across. He likes a certain neighborhood and picks the right victims. Absolutely. It's a neighborhood that is conducive to him. Yeah.

And he had a lot of potential spots. You can choose any neighborhood and find a victim. And so in many ways, he may have employed that strategy where he goes, I know how to get in. I know how to get out of this neighborhood. They're all single story houses. I don't have to worry about witnesses in the second, you know, floor seeing me hopping fences.

So it's very possible he could have just chosen a neighborhood and then found somebody that met his criteria and the opportunity presented itself. But I do think it is possible that he has had interaction with some of these victims ahead of time, both females and males. And that was one of the things I was trying to do in particular, try to identify the males to see if there was maybe a business setting or some other type of sporting activity that they could have interfaced with at some point. Yeah.

And even Jane says the story about how during the attack, he said, you looked really good at the O Club. Right. And he didn't use the term officers club. He said O Club. And you had to be, she thought he was definitely in the military because whether he had seen her at the officers club or not, but the fact that he used the term O Club meant that he was in the military.

So she wondered if he may have seen her at some point. Yeah. And we did see, you know, this, this offender was very much into trying to put the victims on edge and he would look at the victims' lifestyles and make comments to try to make them think that he had seen them or they knew him. In the San Ramon attack, he tells that victim, I've seen you at the lake, well, on her driveway was a boat. Right.

So it's, it's sort of one of those things. He's spied enough to go, okay, she's probably been to the lake at some point. And so I'm going to use that against her just to kind of, you know, get her on edge. Well, I was talking to my sister about it because my sister can't deal with any true crime, anything, but she was asking me questions and I'm like, okay, but I'll answer this for you. But then you're going to know. But she was saying, it doesn't make sense why the victims didn't call the police.

And I'm like, okay, I'm about to tell you something you're not going to like and it's going to keep you up. The way he would wait there and they, it would be dead silent. They would think he was gone. They would move and then he would threaten them again. Like that idea, so then they would end up just laying there like stock still till the morning came. Cause they didn't know if he was still there, so that he'd have hours of getaway.

It's so like deviously brilliant in that way of keeping that timeframe so that he is, has so much time to get as far away as he can. Absolutely. And in fact, in attack number 13 up in Sacramento, you have a mother and daughter laying side by side in the bed and he was somebody that was able to move through the house silently that's one of the things that the victims were commenting on. And at a certain point it's been quiet for a long time. And so the mother asks the daughter, are you okay?

And the daughter responds, shh, mommy. And all of a sudden he pushes down on the bed right next to the mother's head. That's what so, I think that that is what is so that draws us in about this case is what a, it wasn't just about rape for him. It was, and murder. But it's so much more like of a head fuck and, and just conniving and cunning and terrorizing. He's a psychological sadist. So his big thing was the fear he was instilling in the victims.

So when you read the actual sexual assaults and they, they did vary, you know, some of the sexual assaults were almost styled like a consensual type of interaction where he had obviously been fantasizing about that female. When you have some of the sexual assaults were much more violent, but many of the victims were commenting in terms, especially later on in the Easter Arapas phase, he did not seem to be getting what he wanted from the sex. And that's when you start to see this, you know, uh-oh. He's feeling internally he needs more.

And then down in the first attack in Galeta, Santa Barbara, when he's got them separated and bound to the male and female victims, he's pacing back and forth saying, I'm going to kill him. I'm going to kill him this time. I'm going to kill him. He obviously realized he had to take the next step to satisfy that inner compulsion. And then in all the Galeta attacks, he fails because the victims fight back, right? So it is interesting in, in, in that, yes, you can make that, that argument, um, most

certainly in the first two, which were within a few months of each other, right at the end of 1979, uh, with, uh, he, what could have been a double homicide and, and the victims running away from him. And then he has to bail and then gets it, you know, FBI agent chases him. Two months later with Dr. Offerman and Dr. Manning, Dr. Offerman slips his bindings and gets up and, and, and charges him and gets shot. He's killed. And he goes over and shoots Dr. Manning.

And then a year and a half later, he's back in, in, in basically the same area with, um, Sherry Domingo Gregory Sanchez, and he gets into a physical fight with Gregory Sanchez. It doesn't go the way he wants, but he does leave DNA evidence in that scene. So he at least got to the point where he's leaving DNA evidence. Right. And was the mandatory double shooting before all of those murders? That was in February 78. Yes, it was.

Do you think it could have been because there is the talk that that was, could have been a thing where maybe, um, uh, the guy recognized him or there was some reason why he had to shoot that couple that maybe the, it was accidental being forced to murder. And then suddenly he's got a taste for murder in a way that he hasn't before. Well, I think when you look at the entirety of the series, because right now it really is looking like D'Angelo is also the Bicelio Ransack. And you do have the homicide of Claude Snelling. So he has a taste of, of, of murder at that point of the Maggiore case.

The predominant theory right now with Maggiore is Brian and Katie were out walking their dog, Brian being a military police officer, um, known to have an aggressive personality. They stumbled across a guy that's out prowling and Brian puts his cop hat on, confronts the guy, possibly chases the guy until the guy decides he's going to catch me and pulls a gun. And then twice before, besides the Snelling, didn't he shoot the, you have the Rodney Miller case and the kid who chased him and then the cop and then I know a lot about specifics on the show.

Um, okay. Yeah. So, you know, in that particular instance, it may have been, uh, even though it's most likely a defensive type shooting, you know, he has power and control over those victims. He took their lives. He made that decision and that's what this guy is all about. And I think also, and we know that he changed tactics again when somebody, you know, even though he didn't, you know, he knew he almost got caught and then he, he moved, he moved

areas. He didn't attack in that area again. He was very, almost one of his signatures was his, not only his ability to escape really and his ability to, to know all the different escape routes, which leads you to believe that maybe one of those escape routes, when he was walking around, when he was prowling and was whipping out his badge, when he did have the badge or whether he kept the badge and saying, Oh no, I'm just, you know, I'm a police officer and using the police vernacular. You know, he knew all of these different ways.

The reason why he chose that neighborhood is because he grew up not necessarily in that exact neighborhood, but he grew up near that neighborhood in Brenta Cordova. And he knew that, that we, all of those escape routes, you know, and I think that's very much when, when something went south for him, he would say, I've got to go someplace else. And one of the things that we were talking, I was talking about this with another investigator involved in the case, who we both know, but I won't mention his name because he doesn't like the spotlight, but he was saying how, you know, I was talking before about this other case that somebody had told me about.

The son had told me about this, his mom and his mom very well might have been one of his victims, but it was early on in the case. And the investigator told me, you know, we've seen this guy at his best. We saw him when he got away with 50 rapes and 12 murders. We didn't see him in the minor leagues. We didn't see him when he was coming up and he was making mistakes really. We don't really have that. And you know, what he was doing or potentially doing before that, when he was even a teenager,

what he was doing, you know, and that's one of the things that I'm trying to do is create that timeline to figure out, all right, did he ever go to summer camp? Did he ever go on a, on a work trip or whatever? In Korea, when he was visiting his dad, did he ever go off and say, you know, any furloughs that he might have had in the, in the Navy, any of those, those deals, you know, what he might have done, you know, gone on vacation and said, I'm going for a walk. And then what did he do then? Yeah.

He, there's so much that's out there. And we really didn't know what he was doing before he really got it because he became an expert at doing what he was doing. He did though. I would say, Visalia, he was in the minor leagues. Gloria Ransacker was not a very good burglar, struggled to get inside houses, even though he did get in many, many houses. He was constantly being seen by, by neighbors, by victims.

And when you look at after that series stopped six months later, now you have somebody who all of a sudden has more advanced skill sets being able to break inside houses. Somebody sees the hysteria rapist and the hysteria rapist is now doing everything he can from getting from being seen, even by the victims, by wearing a mask, shining flashlights in their eyes, even, even with those precautions, he's telling the victims, don't look at me or I'll kill you. He recognized in Visalia, he made a mistake. He left a trail and he changed.

He learned and that's the evolution of D'Angelo. And he also changed so much that he was a cop in Exeter and he sees that, you know, I probably need to leave Exeter because someone might recognize me and then he goes up. Maybe he saw that, you know, when we were doing the newspaper archive searches, you see the ad for, hey, Albert's looking for police officers. He sees that, he goes up there and he decides, I'm going to go back to my hometown and do it. And was he, when he was a cop in Exeter, was he heavy like the Visalia Ransacker was?

Like that, that was one thing that we talked about when we talked, we were, had the book episode and we were, this was all pre, uh, pre-arrest, but it truly looks like two different people. The descriptions are completely different. Yeah. And I know there was a lot of active rapists at that time, unfortunately there, so. But they're, but it's almost like he did a kind of like a PX 90 thing, like he did a makeover and like a workout thing where suddenly he's super agile and silent.

I'm saying, let's take a look at that guy before we go any further. No, I mean, if you take a look and I've actually got him right there, uh, you know, how heavy his face was. And that was always the stumbling block that Paul had and I had and Michelle had and Paul Haynes had was whether this guy who was being described as being kind of stocky with these heavy, heavy legs and this face that was like a baby's face, whether he could have been this kind of swimmer's body spider-man that's jumping over all this stuff, uh, and made that switch, you know, just, you know, a couple of years later and it turns out that he did.

Right. And I think he probably purposefully altered his physique because there was a composite of him in Vysalia that was very good when he started looking on. So he had to change, but in order to continue doing what he wanted to do. Did we, so the homework evidence, was that red herring? I don't know right now. You know, I had high confidence that that was from him. You were really into that homework evidence.

I was really into that homework evidence and at this point in time, my confidence has been shaken. However, based on what I saw inside D'Angelo's house, oh my God, you went in there. Oh my God. Yeah. Go on. Yeah. I do, I do think that there is still the possibility.

The writing is very consistent with who this offender is, you know, that scrawled punishment. You know, everyone writes that on their homework. Oh yeah, exactly. You know. The mad is the word essay. That psychologically is so much with who it fits with who this offender is. I do believe and had said that I believed it was an old spiral that he had because I'm fully confident.

D'Angelo's a guy that was out there taking notes as he's prowling. We have two pens that were dropped up in Sacramento. So I do think he had an old spiral with him where I'm a little bit stumped right now. That is the diagram because, you know, I did a lot of work on that diagram. I had people saying, this is a guy that is familiar with the development industry. Looks like he's a practitioner using industry-specific symbols. And right now at D'Angelo, he's a cop, you know. And then some kind of just blue, yeah.

I'm with you, Paul Holes, on the, that whole thing because when you first, the night of the arrest, when you sent us the, that old article that you'd found where it said in high school, he'd worked for a winch and crane company. In my mind, I was like, he was the guy that went out there and pulled the trees out before they before they paved out all of these housing complexes. Like it made perfect sense to me. It's planned communities. It's still a planned community drawing.

It is. I do believe when you look at in the military where he did receive carpentry training. So he understands how to frame houses once, I don't know what kinds of classes he took at Sierra College or Sac State, but it's going to be more than just criminal justice because you do take additional courses and they have courses of drafting landscape architecture. So maybe this was just an exercise that he did. However, it's also possible that I had a guy online who's been 45 years in law enforcement. He said, you know, back in the day, we weren't paid very good.

We often took second jobs and often those second jobs were security guards on job sites. And that resonates with me based on the pattern that I saw within Sacramento a little bit. Once he moves outside of Sacramento, you see a prevalence of attacks occurring either in or immediately adjacent to active construction. So I could see where maybe that's what he's doing and that's what's pulling him out all over Northern California because he's making, he's moonlighting. And while he's out in San Jose, he's taking the opportunity to attack. Well, and Dana, point to me, he got into a gated community.

Getting into that community wouldn't have been very hard, but you look at that community, they had, you know, security guards at the gates, they had roving security guards. So it's a higher risk attack. So he is choosing to go there versus maybe going to where someplace it's not so high risk. And that's something that I look at going, you know, maybe there's a reason he's drawing to Harrington more so because he could have chosen a different neighborhood. Totally.

Was there anything when you were, I can't believe you were in that house, what I would fucking pay. It just doesn't a state sale fanatic alone. And also just little things like the fact that he took so many trophies and that they were, you know, just anything with the initials on it, it's just like all that stuff that, it's just so weird to be on this side of this part of the story where for so long, like Michelle and those cufflinks for so long, people have been taking these tiny things and just trying to do whatever they can with tiny bits of information.

And now there's households of information and is there anything in the house and I know you can't give a specifics that made you kind of do a happy dance or gave you chills or gave you any kind of feeling. And the, I think the most, the thing that I observed that was, that left the biggest impression on me, and this probably isn't very well known in the series, but one of the aspects that the hysteria rapist would do is when he would take the female out and typically it's the family room to separate her from the husband and lay her down and she's bound, he would turn the TV on and he would keep the sound off.

And then put a towel over the TV so he'd have this glow so he could see her, right? Walk into D'Angelo's room and he has a computer there and he's got a towel over the monitor. And I'm looking at that going, well, is that just a dust cover or is he reminiscing? No one does that. He wants a glow, you know, is he pulling out any of those souvenirs and replicating the glowing environment from back in the 1970s. So, that's, that was something that struck me. And then he likes peanut butter.

He's eating peanut butter off a spoon and that's what I do. He's still a human, he's still a human. Do you think he's going to talk or explain any of this? I really don't think so. You know, before he was identified, I judged this offender as being all about self-preservation. He didn't want to get caught. He has never demonstrated the zodiac or BTK ego of wanting to say, hey, look at me. And so I felt that if he was caught, he's not going to sit there and self-incriminate.

After seeing how he responded during the first, you know, I watched seven hours worth of the interviews and I just don't see him talking. But you never know, he may have a change of heart at some point. Is he speaking to his family, his daughters? I can't comment on that. Right. Are they okay, those poor girls? I know.

That's so horrible. They, I mean, tore my heart seeing the two, the two youngest daughters there. And I said this at CrimeCon. In my opinion, those two, actually all three of the daughters are really his last victims. They're suffering now from what he did. Absolutely. You're one of the things that, and this is a story that, I don't know if you told it at CrimeCon, but you told it to me, was the, I think it was maybe the night or a couple

nights before you retired when you were outside of his house. And you were thinking about getting the swab. Can you, can you walk us through that? This is one more movie-like aspect of the story that- Of course you're retiring in a couple days. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the thing. You're retiring in a couple of days, you know, your partner, Michelle, you know, died

in her sleeps tragically two years ago and you're retiring a couple of days and you've got one last suspect to check out and you're right outside of his house and you're wondering, you know what, I'd really like to just go in and get a swab and what was going through your mind. And, and at any point, did you say, I'm too old for this shit? Because that would be the most cinematic thing that you could possibly do. Can your partner be a dog? Yeah.

Like a lab? That would be great. Or a child. Yeah. Now, you know, that, in leading up, you know, we had kind of, we had about, I would say four to five males from the genealogy search that caught our interest because they had California connections and then two that had Sacramento connections, one through extended family and then DeAngelo.

After we were able to eliminate the one and it was marching down on DeAngelo saying, well, what's about this guy? You know, on paper, you start finding out, you know, his connection to Sacramento was, you know, he had some family attending school in Rancho Cordova. He was a Folsom High School student in the 60s. Auburn PD, you know, I, I kind of did not like that. I was going, ah, up in Auburn and how's he doing all these attacks? But it wasn't until I spoke with his, the boss that fired him from Auburn, the chief,

and the chief is relaying some of the behaviors that he experienced and observed. And of course we've got the engagement to Bonnie in 1970 and we have our offender, you know, making the statement, I hate you Bonnie, I hate you Bonnie and one of the Davis attacks. There was enough churn that it was, I need to see where this guy lives. Had you seen the story about the shoplifting? Yes. You did? Yes.

So this, the timing of me driving up to his house was my last day before I literally turned in my badge and gun. Ridiculous. And I was sitting there going, well, I need to go see. That's what I always do is now once I've identified somebody I just need to start looking at them. And so I drive up from Martinez which is in the Bay Area up to Citrus Heights and that's about an hour and a half drive. I get up there and I just park in front of his house.

And you have to understand at this point it wasn't, this is the guy. He was just starting to get interesting. And I'm sitting there and I'm looking and there's a car parked in the driveway and I'm looking to see if there's any activity in the house. I don't see any activity but I was pretty confident that he was there. And in my position it was just like, you know, this is my last day. What's the chances that this is actually the guy? You know, I should just go knock on the door, introduce myself like I've done time and time

again and just say, hey, I'm looking into an old case. Can we chat a little bit and eventually establish a rapport and then ultimately ask, do you mind giving a DNA sample? And I thought about it and with what I'd heard from the chief and the Bonnie and, you know, some of the other aspects about him, I thought, I just don't know enough about him to do that yet. And that's when I decided to drive away. And this story initially got out when a local Bay Area noose, the person, was kind of asking

me, I said, well, I really, really was gunning to solve this case before I retired. And I didn't, you know, but at least I can take solace in that I was within 50 feet of the guy I've been looking for for 24 years, you know, and that was that was it. And all of a sudden it says, you know, this big, oh my God, he was right to there right before it. And I wasn't feeling that type of, you know, thing at all. In fact, the local magazine writer that wrote an article on me, you know, he emailed me after that story got out, he was like, oh, that's like Jody Foster going into Buffalo

Bill's house and silence, I was just like, no, I wasn't feeling that at all. I guess a better drive off now, you know, when I told that story to Pete Headley, who we've, we've both talked to and who I'm working with on that Elstown for case and chasing another serial killer that I'm, that I'm putting a Rasmus in this other serial killer, putting it another timeline for and figure out where he's been. He said, that makes me so happy that he didn't go in. Oh yeah. He just said, I'm so happy he didn't go in that house.

You know, in retrospect, when, when you learn about who D'Angelo is, you know, during surveillance, he was, the guys watching him were saying, this guy is not moving around like a 72 year old man. He's like a 50 year old man, like me. Yeah. He's, he's moving around. He's on his motorcycle. He's high rates of speed on his motorcycle on the freeway.

The way he drives, I mean, stop signs are optional, puttering around the house in the yard. He's basically just showing that he's a physically capable individual. And we knew that he had lots of guns registered to him. And of course he had both the military and law enforcement training when it comes to firearms. The front of his house, that front door is in a, what, it's a, it's a funnel of death. It really is a kind of enclosed area that you have to walk through in order to get that front door.

So in retrospect, me knocking there and I'd been on TV enough, we could have looked through a people or a window and seen up, I know who that is, and he could have gotten a gun and things could have been very bad. Do you think that he watched and he kept up on the news of his own? I absolutely think that. Yes. You know, and also I think what would have been so disappointing if he, let's say he hadn't killed you, but if he'd killed himself, it would have, you know, to that last, the

last couple of days, so being so close and he's onto it and kills himself. And that's, that was part of the concern is, you know, I could have contacted him, it could have been suicide, it could have been violence between him and me. It could have been he flees, you know, or he takes hostages, you know, lots of things could have gone bad. So whatever made me drive away, you know, that instinct, that intuition, you know, thank God I followed that. It's because you're Paul Holes, American goddamn hero.

That's why. So speaking of DNA, so which part that you're not Paul Holes? You already did it. It's too late. You're on the record. Can we talk about, so now everyone, okay, can you tell us, everyone's talking about the DNA aspect of it and how it's unfair and all this bullshit and unconstitutional. How close of a match can you find based off of someone else's DNA that they turn into

a website? I mean, he wasn't. From the genealogy side? Well, when you do that kind of search, of course, you're hoping to find somebody as close as possible. Right. And that makes things easy. If you find a sibling or a first cousin, it's very, very easy to identify, you know,

the offender from that. When you start getting out to the second cousin, it's a very doable thing, but it takes a little bit more effort. Third cousin, it's doable like what we had, but it's four months where the very, very hard work. Oh, wow. That's what it ended up being as third cousin. We were dealing predominantly with third cousins.

We ended up getting somebody who was on the order of a second cousin at one point, and that was one of the turning points in terms of getting us into the right branch. But the thing that I keep telling people is, of course, there's a stigma. Law enforcement has got our DNA or accessing our DNA. I can't see that person up in the genealogy websites, those people's DNA profile. I can't download those profiles. For me to see their genetic information, I have to be able to do that. The websites don't allow that, and I don't care about that.

All I'm looking for is how much DNA these people share with my offender's DNA. And then those people, I know, aren't my person of interest, right? They don't even know who this guy is. I mean, do you know who your second cousins are? Do you know who your third cousins are? Yeah, they're kind of pushy, but it's a bad example. You're starting to get too far away in the family for people to really know who they are.

But they're a starting data point. And when you have multiple starting data points that you can track back in time and find a commonality, then you have something to work with. So your offender is likely a descendant from there. This might sound stupid, but then do you reach out to those second and third cousins and kind of get a family treat? No, you don't even need that. It's traditional genealogy work that you do online.

It's very easy. And there's other things. But when you start getting down into people that are alive today, the genealogy websites anonymize that automatically. But us in law enforcement, that's what we excel at, is identifying those people. And so when we get down into the people that are born that are still alive, then we resort to traditional law enforcement investigations, accessing the databases that we can access to identify who they are and start evaluating them.

Are they people that we should consider? And then eventually, at some point, you start going, well, maybe this person I need to get some DNA from. Just to help see it. Am I close enough? Or have I stepped further away? Yeah, because I think there's a lot of people who are trying to frame it. And I think they were probably trying to do that, too, because it's a story.

It's just another angle on, it's a story on a story, but like when you were on The Daily, That New York Times podcast, and that guy was kind of, he was kind of, seemed like he was trying to hammer you on that or whatever. And then you were like, yeah, but also your aunt could call you in just directly to the police department and say, take a look at my nephew. He seems suspicious. And then we're on to you that way. Like you're just picking and choosing why you don't like the way we find the person.

In many ways. And people are concerned, you know, I've heard the term, well, you know, an extended family member is basically being used as a genetic witness against me. I have no control over that person putting their DNA up in the system, and I have a common shared DNA with them. And I can kind of understand that, but you have to understand what really happens in all these investigations. As you said, we get tips typically from, from ex-wives, ex-girlfriends are going, I didn't

like him. I think he's a golden state killer. Sometimes they really believe it. And sometimes they just want to throw their ex under the bus and be, oh, you know, let's have law enforcement rain down on his head. In many ways, I've likened this to a form of swatting, you know, that thing where they call up and say, there's an hostage at this house, and actually know you have a swat team going in.

People do do that. So at least with the DNA, there is, there's a, it's a precision tool. And by, we contacted, once we started this particular aspect of the genealogy using the autosomal DNA and the JED match, we contacted one person and got DNA from that person. And she was very, very helpful. That saved hundreds of people who the public had called in from us going and knocking on the doors and having that fear of all sudden law enforcement is investigating them and then asking them for their DNA sample.

So in many ways, it was better for those people's privacy because they weren't being invaded. And their pot stashes. And not to mention the tax dollars that are being wasted by the time that would have been spent getting those hundreds. And I've pointed this out, you know, for 44 years with more resources than any other law enforcement investigation that I can think of, we were, we did not solve this case. Once we started this process with five people plus two outside experts took us four months. So it really shows the power of the technology.

And then since that, we've seen a double homicide up in Washington be solved. I fully expect to see additional cases start to fall. The dominoes are all falling and there's so many. I think this is the biggest single, but since DNA was actually used in a criminal case, this is the next biggest break in terms of solving cold cases is using familial DNA. And it's going to be a matter of resources, we were talking about this before, that there's you know, all of the rape kits that are out there and how many of those people did evolve into murderers or did evolve into serial rapists.

And it's going to be a matter of, and I've spoken about this on the show right after the press conference is that, you know, they're going to need genealogists, they're going to need volunteers, they're going to need, you know, not everybody had the resources that you had and you were able to have those resources, but the small police departments and the thousands of police departments that we have across the country. And there is a group of people right now, all of the baby boomers who have a ton of experience and it's the most educated and most skilled workforce that we've ever seen retiring. There really is a chance right now to utilize that those people as well as the Gen Xers

and also the millennials who want to do, who want to hobby with purpose and you know, deputize them in a meaningful way using liaisons and stuff, that's what I'm doing. And actually after my, after I said that on the podcast, I won't mention the state, but somebody called me from the legislation of the state and said, I want to do this. So that might, that might actually happen. That's so exciting. Yeah. Well, it does seem like, and you know, and more credit to you Paul Holes, but like it

is that thing of the police that open their arms to talking to, you know, writers, journalists or just the, with the online investigators or whatever, where that idea that it's to pull the information and to pull what the information you can pull, it can only benefit, right? If more people are working on something or is that not right? Very much so. Now, there's pros and cons and obviously like my partnership with Michelle was very much a positive experience and you know, we, I would say it was symbiotic.

We were able to just help each other and it was a truly a public-private partnership. And the, there, the online sleuthing community, there's a lot of very bright and capable people out there that have capabilities that far exceed mine in certain ways or expertise that lends itself to being able to provide information. But what you do see though is you have the other side and the other side is what weighs down the investigation because now you have these people that are calling in tips that have no nexus. They get very belligerent and in fact, they start looking at me as their private investigator

and I was like, no, that's not how this works. There needs to be a code of conduct, there needs to be a filter, a filter that everything goes through and you, you know, and I've actually, I'm actually writing this code of conduct up right now and one of the things is after the biggest thing, which is don't name names in public, don't say, hey, this is the guy, is this the guy, hey, I think this is the guy, you never do that, which is what, which is what you saw in the Boston bombing, which set crowdsourcing back years. The second thing after that is be safe and the third thing is that, you know, you have

to have that kind of, you know, code of conduct. You can't just go off and especially if you're dealing with victims' families, you know, you have to, you have to just maintain a positive outlook and not just, you know, crap all over anybody and you're not going to get credit. A lot of times you're not going to get credit and there's a lot of people, oh, I found this guy, I found this guy. You just have to say, listen, if you're working with the victims' families, the victims' families know, but it's going to be few and far between that a police officer or detective

is going to go and say this, and I've had to happen myself and I was amazed when they did it and they invited me to the press conference for something that I helped solve, it very rarely happens. You know, it's like, I think it's happened maybe 20% of the ones that I've been able to help with. So, you know, you're not always going to get that, but, you know, you need that code. Yeah, and then that would be helpful as long as it's, they abide by it. There's also kind of having a respect to that.

There are going to be aspects of the investigation that have to be closed, and that is very, very real, and some people have a hard time understanding that. Those of us that have experienced this over the decades realize that there are people out there. You know, for example, there are people that will confess to these types of crimes and they have no involvement. And that's one of the reasons, you know, if we don't have a case that has such strong DNA evidence and we have to rely on the circumstances of how that crime was committed, there's going

to be details that have to be held back from the public. Otherwise, we're going to have these people coming in and just confessing and, you know, laying out how it happened because they read about it in the newspaper, and we can't really sort them out from the actual guy that did it. How do you decide what of those, you know, what, what are that evidence to keep behind and what of it would be helpful for the public to know to help solve it or to, you know. Right. It's case by case, you know.

Well, certainly, it's assessing what only the offender would know. And that's what we would hold back. There's also things that we hold back just out of sensitivity to the family, you know, because they don't want to necessarily hear the horrors that their family member went through. Right. So, you know, there's lots of decisions that are made, and it has to be made very early on.

You know, for example, a coroner's report, the medical examiner's report, when all the information that's in there is technically public record. So we have to recognize very early on at that point in time to seal that record or redact specific information out of that report that we do not want to let the public know about. That was actually one of the cool things, too, about the ID Channel Special is how many victims spoke on camera, talked about their experience. Like I think that that part of the Golden State Killer, it's knowing how many victims

there are and what a horrible time that was for so many people in Sacramento in the 70s. And then just to see these amazing women who were just like, well, this is what happened and walking you through it where it's like they were the victims of this crime, but they're also very strong women who are leading their lives and seeing them also at crime con with you guys. So Jane and Margaret are just ridiculously amazing. It's so cool. And Jane's sense of humor and coming up with quip after quip of first, you know, with his

small member and having the conversations about that, but also just wanting to hit him in the head with the roast that he had in the oven and all that. Oh, God! She's so fantastic. Are there any cases that Billy would want people to focus on now that this one is off of our web's looth plates? Yeah, look up Allentown 4. That's the one that I'm, you know, as far as like the, and I was actually working on

the Allentown 4 case right when I learned that Michelle died, I had just gotten back from being in the woods and walking that area when I was in a bar and found out that she had passed. So I kind of linked these two and these two were actually kind of linked in a weird way too, because Paul, Paul knew about that case and had talked to some of the same investigators about DNA way back in the day about that. So the interesting thing, I didn't know about the Allentown 4 case at all. Billy brought that to my attention a few years ago when we first met at Michelle's memorial.

And so I kind of looked at that online and said that looks like a very interesting case. I had a case that I went out on in 2002, a homicide of an Asian female, and it turns out that that guy, Larry Vanner, who killed his live-in girlfriend, who we could not, we couldn't identify Larry. We didn't know who he was. And he had abandoned a child back in 1986. I've been reading about this one. Lisa Jensen.

And we were sure once we determined, he was not the biological father of Lisa, that we thought that she was an abducted child from somewhere. And using traditional law enforcement methods, we could never identify who Lisa was. And I just happened to get into a conference call, February of 2017, with Peter Headley from San Bernardino and a captain from my sheriff's office, who was the lead investigator on the 2002 homicide. And that's when I first found out that Lisa Jensen had been identified as Don Baudin, a missing girl out of Canada.

And eventually, that ended up linking this 2002 case out of Contra Costa County to the Allentown case out in New Hampshire that Billy had told me about. But I couldn't tell Billy at that point in time. Yeah. I know. I know. But the crazy thing about that case is that we still- It could never be a cop.

I could never be a cop. We still, you know, the girls in the barrels, which is a woman and three females, we still don't know their identities, but we know who killed them, which very rarely happens, you know. It's always the other way around. So that's the case that I'm very deep into right now and working on a special on. And also, you know, it's going to be in my book at some point, but there's so many crazy twists and turns.

And we talk about this guy being, you know, we talk about the Golden State Killer and being so evil. I really think Rasmussen slash Bob Evans slash Larry Vanner, he had a tons of different names, was even more evil because his MO was this, he would sidle up to a woman who had kids. He would take that woman sort of away from her family and move her away. And then he would molest the kids, kill the woman and then use those kids to attract another woman that he's like this poor single father. Once he got that other woman with other kids, he would kill the kids that he got with the

other one once they were ready to talk and then start that whole cycle all over again. And he did this a lot and we're still trying to figure out where else he's been. So it's right now I'm delving into these two backgrounds of these guys that weren't necessarily super nice guys. The difference is, is that one of them is dead and he liked to talk a lot because he really was a master manipulator, this guy Rasmussen. You can look up his, the stuff that, you know, his interrogations and he really thinks he's going to get out of it.

Whereas D'Angelo is a completely different cat and he's just, you know, obviously spending seven hours just staring at the wall. Do you think that's cause he's a cop too? Like he's already seen what can happen if you start talking? No question about it. You know, the law enforcement training is most certainly, you know, he's been on the other side talking to suspects. He understands what it means to incriminate yourself with statements and he was married

to an attorney. Oh right. So, you know. Do you think he'll go to trial? Do you have the balls to go to trial on this? I think it will eventually go to trial, but don't expect that trial to happen anytime soon. I think the trial is probably going to be five years or more out.

These cases, I mean, it takes a long time to get a case, especially of this magnitude to trial. Yeah. And he's, he's looking for an escape route again. Yeah. So if he's going to do everything in his power to either potentially go, you know, have spent time in a hospital as opposed to spending time in a prison or a jail and just do anything he can in terms of, all right, we're going to try to do delays and delays and delays.

How much should I piss you off when you saw him in a wheelchair in the courtroom? That was just a bunch of BS, you know, and that's, that's where in many ways, you know, here he is. He's trying to portray himself as a golden state killer back in the day as this, you know, just this master criminal mind and then he's doing this wimpy wheelchair thing. At this point, he just needs to man up. He needs to basically take accountability for these crimes, tell us everything. If he wants, if he wants any type of recognition, so to speak, do that, like the BTK did, just

stand up there and say, I did this, this is how I did it. This is who I self-identified as and unfortunately right now, he's, he's taking the cowardly way out. Totally. Sorry. Go ahead. I was just, I was thinking maybe it's part of that and the difficulty of that is that judge recently deciding that they can publicly talk about the size of his penis, which I'm

sure it is, has a lot to do with all of it, all of it really, don't you think at the end of the day? Like there's the part of the rage and part of the, all that stuff. I just think it's like, there's a real humiliation level that's not just he got caught. Right. Right. That's possible, maybe. Yeah.

Well, it's not only, they talk about it, they actually can take a picture of it. Right. And they have, you know, we've got the GSK dick pic. It's there. And we'll be putting it up on the Instagram, my favorite motor Instagram, because a brand new hashtag waiting to happen. We were talking about the single sock, Billy. Yes.

Oh yeah. Yeah. So this week, I don't know how early you guys are going to get this on, but Nick Meck, which is a National Center for Missing Exploited Children, they do rock one sock, which is to raise awareness for all of the missing children that are out there. So I'm going to be asking everybody in this room to be taking off one shoe and one sock and rocking one sock. And we'll take pictures of it and put it up on, on social media, but, you know, Nick

Meck is great. They're, they're a fantastic organization and they do a lot with them. And it really is. It's the clearinghouse for finding missing children. And I actually was at Nick Meck right before the day before I went up to Allen's town, which the day before I found out about Michelle. I was actually interviewing. I was at Nick Meck interviewing the guy that had done the, the, um, the facial reconstructions

of the four victims and the barrels. And it was fascinating and he was turning, turning the heads around on the, on the screen and then the showing. And you saw this giant hole in the back of their heads. And this is what this guy did. He had, he, you know, took a rock or a brick and then just did this to these three little girls in this woman. And that's his earmark.

And that's what we've been looking for me and Headley across the country and seeing other places that he did that, because obviously that was his way of getting rid of somebody was hitting them in the back of the head. And we found a couple. So, so. And one of those little girls was his own. Yes. Yeah.

Amazing. Which is how, which is how they found him. Horrible. That's insane. Karen, you look shook when the sock thing. Yeah. We've been on a European tour for several weeks. I haven't had, I don't remember the last time I had a pedicure, I went out to send

mine in after I go to the foot doctor. Like just the idea of that. Well, I, yeah, I was going to, well, I was going to, yes, I don't make me do this today. I kept two secrets from you. It was that. And it was not, it was, it was having Paula actually here. So I understand. This is like my humiliation birthday.

Why do you hate me this much? I thought we were friends. Oh, I love you Karen. Right. So unfair. I love it. Um, the one thing I did want to say Paul Holes is when, uh, when I was listening to the daily at the very end of that interview and he kind of weirdly abruptly ended it, where

suddenly it was like, well, thanks for doing this interview. The way you said to him, it was, I think you said it was great to be here or it was great to talk to you or something. This sound of your voice, and maybe this is just my, I think I can read your mind, but it sounded like what you were saying is thank God this is the story I'm finally getting to tell. Like there was such a relief in your voice and almost like a happiness. The way you said like, well, it was great to be here.

It was like such, it was just so, um, it was so exciting that this, that the story finally changed. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't say that at that moment in time, that's what I was thinking. I don't remember. But it absolutely is great to be able to at least start talking about who the East area rapist.

That's how I've known this guy. This was the East area rapist or the ear to me for decades before Michelle named him the golden state killer. And to finally see who he was after all these years to see that face that all I've seen in my mind when I read the case files is a masked man. So now I could see basically the mask has been taken off. So it is kind of very nice to get to this point. And as I've mentioned, I have a story to tell that's never been told.

And now I have the opportunity to be able to tell it and I'm working on that. And we heard that there's going to be an addendum to that to all be gone in the dark. Is that am I allowed to say that? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, we're working on that. Yeah. Because I've been telling everyone across the globe, well, because people have actually

been bringing copies of the book to the meet and greets at our live shows for us to sign it. We're like, we had nothing to do. Yeah. Just to go like, you know, well, and those I sent you the picture, but there were two murderers who were from France who just said we brought you this because we figured you'd want to see it, the French version of it, which of course, I immediately started crying. I was like, yeah, I really did want to see this, I didn't realize it.

But you know, just that there's now an ending, that it was there was something very sad and of course, unsatisfying about how it was. And going through her notes and while we were putting the book together and finding that coda, finding the letter to the old man, and it was amazing, you know, my jaw dropped when I first saw that and the way that she wrote it and it really did play out exactly how she said. It totally did. And that was one of the first things that I thought about when I heard the news, I was

like, I wonder if it was just like that, you know, and it turns out it was. But finding that, it was almost like she knew. She knew that if something ever bad happened to her, this is how the book is going to end if we didn't catch him. And again, she just wanted him caught more than anything else. So yeah, it'll end there and then we'll tack something else on the end. It's very cool. What's next for Paul Holes?

Are you going to go Hollywood, Paul Holes? So I am, you know, of course, I am going to write a book about my story. I am exploring TV opportunities to see what's there. You know, I've got many, many cases that I've worked and one of the things, you know, I, though GSK is my biggest case, I want to make sure people understand that I'm not just GSK. That wasn't your only case? That wasn't my only case. I didn't just hold that one file on your desk for 30 years.

You know, I will say for the better part of the last 10 years, I really tunnel-visioned on that case, especially in the last two years. And in some ways, you know, as Billy was the one that said, oh, you need to, you know, open a Twitter account, I have been like an incarcerated man. I have just been so tunnel-visioned on the case that a whole world has kind of grown out there. And now that the case is behind me and I'm retired, I'm now, what is this? It's a nightmare.

But it's very fun at the same time. So you know, I am exploring things, I am helping other agencies out, and it's not just the genealogy side. I bring other aspects of expertise that I can lend to a case. You're a science dude, right? I have a science background, I have an investigative background, I have a behavioral background, and I think that's my strength is I can walk between those disciplines and be able to piece together stuff that maybe an investigator who doesn't understand the forensics and is

looking at a report that's just a bunch of scientific gibberish. I can talk in that investigator's language and say, this is what you've got. This is the direction you need to go. Same thing if you have a profiler coming in. I can be able to help bridge these people that don't necessarily walk in each other's worlds. So that's my strength, and that's what I'm hoping to be able to do and help other law enforcement agencies.

Cut to the Paul Holes lifeguard show. What? Can't be the show, Paul. I think on that note, what's a really important question is, are you going to take advantage of all the fucking puns you can use with your last name? If not, I will be very disappointed. You know, growing up with the last name of Holes, I've heard it all. I've been referred to everybody orifice.

Not there. And you see some of the hashtags, and it's just the way it is, you know, but it's all fun. It's all good. And I got heart fart. I understand. Yeah. People like to have fun, and I think everybody, especially on Twitter, people just go a little

crazy because they're just everybody's, I think for us at least, the newness of how many true crime fans are out there, how passionate they are, and how we've all basically, like I said, we've all been watching the same TV shows for 20 years. People, well, you know, I remember the episode of whatever the show was, Dateline or 2020, when they were like, the Eurons is the original Night Stalker, you know, whatever 2001, whatever that happened, like, all those things. We've been telling people, I mean, I've been anecdotally telling people the story of how he must have been at one of the town halls because of this thing without even really

knowing what the case was for years, and it turns out it's might not be true, but great story to tell at parties. Well, it's amazing, and it, that the Golden State Killer is up there with the worst of the worst. So those stories fit, even if they're not totally accurate. That's how bad this guy, I mean, he really is that awful as a person. So yeah, it's just, there's a whole, there's a whole true crime world waiting for you, Paul Holes.

I hope to be able to walk into that world, down the rabbit holes, because me and Michelle used to always talk about, oh, I'm going down this rabbit hole, like when we were doing, when we had entered it into Y search, entered his DNA, when we only had a little bit of the markers, not as many as you had later on, but going down that rabbit hole of the, of that one name we won't mention, and going through and going through like, you know, 18th century census reports, and like three weeks of that going like, what am I doing with my life? This is ridiculous.

And thinking like, we can get him, but it was 10, you know, it was 10 generations ago, and it just wasn't working. Do you call up the, do you call up the guy that you were sure it was, and you were hounding and apologize to him? Well, there's been multiple guys like that, and I have gone and spoken with them, then they have no idea that I investigated them as a suspect. So it was, you know, in fact, one guy I spent a year on, and after I got his DNA surreptitiously and eliminated him, I spent three hours in his dining room talking to him because I thought

he was close enough that maybe the Easter Arapist was somebody he knew. Wow. So that's, that's, that was just part of the, the typical investigation. You can march down this path, you get excited about somebody, you see all the circumstantial evidence of the DNA eliminates, and you're going, You should have just arrested him. You probably did something wrong. That's, that's a show right there.

Other reasons to arrest someone, even though they're not the serial killer. Really quick, did they not let you talk at that press conference because, is that a political thing? Is that that kind of like the DA speaks, and then this person speaks, and it, it's a... Well, most certainly, you know, with the press conference, you do have the elected officials. They're coming up on their campaign cycle, so they're going to want to get that attention. I had told DA Anne-Marie Schubert, because we weren't, they did not want to get into the details about the genealogy at that press conference.

The focus was on D'Angelo. I had gone up to her before, and I said, you know what, if the press starts asking questions about the technical aspects, don't turn it over to me, because then I'm going to be answering, and then you are going to be answering questions about the genealogy side. So I did back away from being somebody who could have been up there at that podium. In fact, I had victims I had to go call, and so I slipped out, you know, as it was dragging on and on in order to start calling these victims. Yeah.

Okay. Well, we still wanted you to be... Cool. This was amazing. Thank you so much. This was so great. Thank you both for being here. Yeah.

Well, it's been my pleasure. And, you know, and one of the things that you said, you talked about Michelle's contribution to the Golden State Killer case, and absolutely she had a contribution, but you take a look at what you two are doing in the true crime space. You are bringing attention to these cases, and that is just as significant. So you are having a role. So understand that. Stop it.

Thanks for all. I'm going to cry. Well, we're definitely having a good time. Yeah. And... We feel lucky to be involved any way we can. With the thing that, you know, as all of us say, it used to make us feel weird to be so interested in stuff like this, and it used to be a thing that we all kept to ourselves.

And now it's, you know, there's like a new day, and everyone gets to go, yeah, I'm into that too. I love that. I know all about that case. There's more than enough unsolved murders out there. This was only, you know, really a handful in the grand scheme of things. There's 215,000 unsolved murders since 1980 in America, and, you know, you guys can shine the light because you guys are the biggest superstars right now in true crime, that true

crime is seen in a while. Really long time. You had John Walsh, and then you had Nancy Grace, but Nancy Grace is a very polarizing character. And you have you guys, and the fact that, you know, you've got 3,000 people showing up at your events, and going crazy, and all of the Etsy stuff, and all of the crafts and everything. I mean, it really is amazing.

And I think that there's a lot of great that can be done from all the murderinos out there. Yeah, that's true. I think that's totally happening, because we also constantly hear when we meet people at the meet and greet, people saying either they're going back to college to study forensics, or they are switching their majors. I mean, we hear things all the time, and we're like, I'm like, I've just been reading Wikipedia pages. I'm not.

But it's people are so excited that they have this interest that they know they share that's popular and interesting. And I love the idea that there could be this wave of women getting into police work, and really being, you know, the next Carol Daley, so that that isn't an odd thing, and that there is that the female perspective, I think, is kind of crucial. It absolutely is. And I've experienced that firsthand where you work a case, and you're working it from a male perspective, and then the female is seeing it from a different side, and it definitely

is an additive when you go, huh, you know, that is not how I perceive this at all. So that is very valuable, and there are a lot of amazing women in law enforcement today. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's an incredible community, this little murdering community, and we're lucky to be part of it. And it also isn't just going back to school, it's voting. Remember that.

If you don't want to go back to school, if you've got a good job, and you're just saying, right, I just like reading about this stuff and listening to it, it's voting. And we need to get loud, and we need to get loud now, as much as we were getting loud and starting to get loud with the backlog and ending the backlog, and we need to start getting loud on all of these, even the remains that are sitting in police lockers of people. We need to start figuring out who those people are, start figuring out not only running the rape kits, but then running them through familial DNA and solving these crimes. And that's going to be through the murderinos getting loud along with everybody else in

this trying to make that stuff happen. Okay. Are there any resources people can look into online to kind of find? I would say, let's start with end the backlog, just do a search for end the backlog and you can find it. Arsika Hargitay is doing great work there. Yeah. We talked about that a lot.

Yeah. The cool thing is sometimes murderinos will get together just to drink together, and then they'll be like, we raised $250 for end the backlog. They just like, it's very cool. Everybody's very proactive and excited. It's cool. Yay. Thanks, you guys.

Thank you guys. Thanks for listening, everyone. Fuck. So, this is so rad that we're going to do this. This is a show and its own fucking hooray. It's all one thing. That's right. Yeah.

Steven. Wait, you have to say the thing. Oh. Stay sexy. I forgot my line. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered.