My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 13 - Thirteen Going On Murdy

Episode Date: April 21, 2016

This week Karen and Georgia tell each other their favorite murders from the 1980s, featuring The Preppie Murder and the Keddie Murders. Plus your favorite murders and lots of stabby talk!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Yeah, this is Karen on the 1-2. That's Karen on the 1-2. That's Georgia on the 3-4. There we go. Hey, welcome to my favorite murder. This is Karen. That's Karen. This is Georgia.

Remember our voices. Remember, make mental pictures and then listen to horrible things from us. Get ready to party. Party with knives. Guys, there's so much going on. So much going on. This is going to be chock full. Yeah, this episode is about 1980s murders.

1980s murders. It's episode Lucky 13. Yay. And we decided that we do... Well, when we decide these things, it's so random. We're just trying to interest ourselves. Yeah. And make something that we think will get...

For me, I was trying to think of something to make us dig deep and go maybe off ours. My standard interest is the murder of marginalized people so that I can come back and talk about and shake my finger at society. Yeah. And how society works. And how we've wronged. And how we've all been so wronged. Yeah.

And we've wronged. We've wronged and been wronged. But then I think last week we got a little deep and personal and kind of sad. And so I was trying to think of like, 80s murders would be like immediately I'm thinking, come home in the morning, like, you know, it's a Cindy Lauper feel. It's a fun murder. It's a fun triangle, pink triangles and light blue dots type of feel. Okay.

I should let you know that mine isn't fun. Okay. Mine is marginalized people. I mean, I feel like there's almost no way that it's not going to be that way. Well, the 80s just did a number on murder. Yeah. I feel like there was just, there was a lot of horrific murders coming out. Yes.

And I think when I was researching mine, I found when people talk today about that we live in rape culture in the 80s, it was like that flag was flying high. Well, it wasn't a rape culture back then because no one cared about rape. It was like, wasn't it like legal to rape your wife? Yeah. And it was like she wore a short skirt. So she deserved it. And it would high five in the courtroom.

There wasn't a rape. It was fucked up, guys. It wasn't a rape culture because it was just culture. It wasn't rape. Yeah. There was no delineation. It was just like, it was, this is culture and too bad, except it, there's nothing you can do.

Right. Don't worry. You shouldn't have worn that and you shouldn't have talked to this person. Karen, what do you have in front of you? Oh, guys. Yeah. Before we get into the main course, let's, let's do some apps. Let's have an appetizer happy hour.

Yes. Give me some murder consomme. Now, people talked about this on the Facebook page. Of course there's, there's no way to jump the Facebook page. When shit comes out, it's going to hit there first. But I too, like someone who posted this on our Facebook page, bought the in touch weekly that had Jean Benet's cases finally solved on the cover. But they don't, but they're like, but we're not telling you, right?

Well, it can't be for sure because now it's gone into, it's almost like JFK theorists were all just split into these lunatic satellite theories. The reason I think this one has much more weight to it is because it's the original private investigator that they, that the Ramses hired. Yeah. But if the Ramses hired them, are he, is he going to disclose what he knows about the Ramses? I don't know.

I mean, you, you would think not, but then he's no longer on their payroll. He just started investigating independently from, from when they were cleared. But someone made this great point on the Facebook page that, that like rung my bell, which is you cannot clear the Ramses if the case has not been solved. Right. Somebody came in and was like, don't worry about them. They're fine. And it's like, but there's no person.

It's not like you're saying that and then you're bringing up, this is the actual suspect. Like, and the reason we know they're not guilty is because of so-and-so because there's actually still, they still haven't cleared all the evidence that points to them. There's so much. And there's just so much. It's, it becomes like the, it's the jack-the-ripper thing where when you, when you go over the path over and over, everything gets muddied and crazy and you suddenly don't know where the path is anymore.

Well, the thing that's frustrating to me is that anytime someone is like, here, here's the theory and here's why every single one of them makes total sense. Sure. And you're like, okay, yeah, I could see that. And they are like, they pick and choose the evidence that supports that and it makes sense. Yeah. And then you hear an, you know, the, the evidence is something totally different. You're like, that makes sense too.

Right. So it's hard. It's very hard. And in this article itself, this happened to me, which here, I'll say this first. This is how terrible I am with the digital age we live in. This article was four pages long and I dipped out on page three. I was like, I can't read that. I don't want to read this anymore, but I'll, I'll tell you why because it's this, um, what's

his name? Uh, Ollie Gray is this private investigator. So he's got a team of people helping him for this investigation. They think it's a guy named, um, Michael Hellgoth who did it. Oh, they say who they think did it. Yeah. And they think he did it with other people, but this guy has killed himself, quote unquote, killed himself since that time, which the bullet went from left to right and the gun

was laying on the right hand side. So they're like, they're, that's not, that's not a suicide. So they think that he was killed to be silenced as the people that did it with him wanted to make sure that he doesn't fuck them up and get them sent to jail. So they think it's one guy or multiple guys? They think that there was multiple guys. It's all different people saying all different things. Then why wouldn't they kill if it was just the two of them?

I could see that. But if, if it was three, yeah, okay. So it's three, then why didn't whoever killed that one guy kill the other guy too? They could still do it. Or maybe they have like, we don't know because we don't know who those other two people are. But apparently this guy, Michael Hellgoth, um, Ollie, Holly Gray, for some reason that name will not stay into my head, um, Ollie Gray says this guy is caught on tape admitting to the murder.

Where's the tape? What's the tape? They see the tape. It's, yeah. It's, it's, uh, it's, let's see. The tape was removed from Mike's house after he died in 1997, but apparently it was overlooked by the police and returned to Mike's family. And why did they think he did it because he admitted it on this tape?

Got it. And there's, there are witnesses who say they saw three men leave the house in a station wagon. There's a girlfriend who says, my boyfriend came back in a station wagon I'd never seen before, changed blood, splatter clothes. It's a bunch of that kind of shit. Um, but it's nothing, nothing is being reported to the police in a firm factual way. As far as I can tell from this very slightly scammed article, here's why I stopped reading

this article. Because one of the people whose picture is next to Olly Gray's in the article is a guy named, um, John, it looks like Kennedy or Canadi. And he has a lot to say about this guy and what he's like and they killed cats when he was little and he's really messed up and he owned a taser and jump and he was tased and all this different stuff. Um, unfortunately in, uh, the second paragraph, it says, um, shoot, sorry, I'm on the wrong page on the, um, on the third page of this article.

It says, Kennedy, who has a questionable past himself after being sentenced to three years supervised probation in 1979 for sexual assault on a child, phoned the Boulder police department nearly 20 times. No one would call me back. He says, so immediately that's when I was like, why am I reading this article? This is basic. This is the reason nobody's listening to these theories is because, you know, have a child rapist that's like, I know who did it.

Well, that's like criminals, you know, um, reporting each other. It's never going to be solved. It's the messiest fucking thing. Do you think it'll ever, I don't think it'll ever be solved. I mean, I have to say, I don't know, but I had to buy this. Yeah. No, no, you needed to do that. I'm glad you, you brought it out of your bag and I was like, why didn't I think of

that? Yeah. Every page of this magazine is absolute trash, including this article that's all just like, and of course they have all the pictures of like the Patsy's writing and then the note and all everything you'd want, but it doesn't help anything. No, I don't think it'll ever be solved. And I don't, unless we can do some kind of mind reading in the future, I don't think it's going to be solved.

What's going to help me though a lot is that, uh, true crime series they're going to do about this case. I can't wait for that. I'm going to watch the shit out of it. But like, will they include things from child rapists? That's what I know. It's like, how, who, who's fact-checking that script? Totally.

Totally. Um, no, no, no, not anyway, unless someone has a deathbed confession, which was so much, oh, I read a whole thing of like 10 deathbed confessions and it was like fucking amazing. What was that on cracked? Something like, yeah, I probably cracked something like that, um, which I'm like, I hope there's a deathbed confession. I feel like if anyone's, it's going to be Burke Ramsey's deathbed confession. Yeah.

And we got to, so you and I need to survive for another, what, 70, let's say, let's, let's put it on, let's say he doesn't smoke and put it on 70 more years. Let's say he doesn't smoke and doesn't have some strange cancer lurking inside from the way Patsy did from, uh, being involved in a terrible child murder, guilt cancer as I like to call it. And maybe, and so hopefully the, the dad will be dead then whoever outlives each other is going to have a deathbed confession. Now, do you think when John Ramsey dies, there's going to be some shit that comes out that

he's keeping from people because he's the rich. He's the money man. That's like, who's going to come out from, oh, so he dies and someone's going to be like, I didn't want to say this when he was alive. No, because I think, I guess only if, well, do they want his kid to know about it? Or if Burke didn't do it, sorry, but just to entertain, he dies, Burke gets the secret, the key to the secret lock box at the bank or whatever, something like that where like it just opens a new chapter.

I don't think he seems like such a private person. I can't imagine me and be like, here, here you go, everyone. Would you say he's fiercely private? I wouldn't say that out loud. That's for me to do. Um, fiercely private. I think, um, I like the idea that I spent this $2.99 so you wouldn't have to. Thank you.

Yeah. I'm going to try to do that for you. When it gets solved. Is that going to be worth something? Yeah. I'm definitely putting it into a Ziploc bag and putting it in a file folder. Put it in your vault. That's right.

At the bank. You guys will both have vaults. That'd be, that'd be amazing to have a vault that when you die, you open it up and it's a bunch of old in touch weeklies. Like not even that old though, they're like from like mid nineties. Cause like, yeah, uh, should we talk about, should we go on the main course? Oh, the one thing I do want to say first, please do, um, our Facebook page is blowing up so crazy.

We love that people keep joining it. Um, it's so fun and, uh, we're, we're going to, we had, it grew so quickly that we had to get some people, um, I believe their names are Alex and, and Ari and we had to get them to moderate. So, um, we just want to be respectful of the fact that they're actually doing work for us and trying to keep the Facebook page is readable and as fun for everybody as possible. Um, so patients, as we kind of have weird growing pains because it isn't the original 300 people who are like, you know, their own little club and we're sorry it can't be that

way anymore. It's almost 3,500. It's fucking crazy. It's huge. And also thanks to you guys on the Facebook page. We also made the fucking, we made the top 50 comedy podcasts on iTunes, which is crazy. How crazy is that? So quickly, yeah, thank you guys so much for being participating so much.

The only way we can get on that is if you guys rate, review and subscribe. Excuse me, um, get it out now, so please keep doing that because I was very fucking exciting. Oh, and also I haven't checked the, uh, Gmail for your emailed hometown murder stories in a while. Cause they go, yeah, they went a little crazy that there's so fucking many. So we will get back on that and do a mini, mini-sode of that pretty soon. Um, like I'm also, because of the Facebook page, like I'm really aware of quotes that I'm, that we're saying because people have been making these inspirational posters that

are so hilarious, so funny of stupid, like not stupid, but like hilarious quotes we've been saying. Yeah. It's very cool. It's so rad. So now every time I say something, I'm like, is this going to be made into an inspirational quote? Don't start trying to talk in quotes.

I don't. I'm not going to. I don't want to. I don't want to. But then you pull out of like notes in your pocket, but I happen and like my hand has writing all over it. But anyway, but do you want to go first? I will go first.

80s murder. Come home in the morning, but that's what makes 80s makes you think of, yeah, immediately Cindy Lauper. Yeah. It's a total 80s kid. So this murder happened. I completely remember it. It was 1986.

I was 16. This was like right, right there when I was starting to go like, oh shit, like the real world is heavy duty. 16 is realizing that yeah. Bad things can happen to you. And yet was I still a blackout drunk? You bet I was. Lady.

Did I still walk alone at night? Hell yeah. Absolutely. It's, I was the queen of the kidnapping in my town, right? So my murder is the preppy murder. Do you remember that preppy murder? Robert Chambers and Jennifer Levin, New York City, 1986. No, tell me everything.

Okay. So this was big because back then, and this, it's so funny to talk about and to look it up because it now seems like 100 years ago. But in the 80s, the big thing back then was being rich. This was like a little bit after revenge of the nerds where people started to acknowledge that there was another way to be besides popular, rich, blonde, skinny, on coke, and wearing an Aizad shirt. Right.

It's like us against them kind of a thing. Exactly. But up until that point, it was basically like this was the only thing you can be. And if you're anything else, you're just invisible and no one gives a shit about you, or you'll get beaten up and thrown into a garbage can. So that was, it was very much like the greed is good Gordon Gekko era of like the poster that had the Porsche with the naked lady on it that was like boys and their toys. It's like standard fare.

It's like everyone, everyone was assumed to be reaching for the same goal of being wealthy. Exactly. And now when you watch American Psycho, which seems totally insane now, it really was like that. That's just like a satirized campy version of exactly how it was. So in August 26, 1986, it was right before people were going back to college or going away to college for the first time. And there was a bar, I believe it was the Upper West Side.

I should have written it down. Sorry. It could be the Upper East Side, but I think it was the Upper West Side. And it was called Dorian's Red Hand. And that's where all the rich kids, prep school kids used to go. They could actually go there and drink underage. And their parents kind of knew that that's where they went. And they liked that they went there as opposed to anywhere else because they knew where they

were. Yeah. They knew where they were. It was a little bit of a clubhouse. It was very inciting. It was an act of like from like 17 to 23 year olds that went to this bar. And they probably weren't blackout drunks too. It was like, you have a reputation, you need to hold your shit.

So it's not like they were going to some dive bars. Right. It was like networking and kind of clubby. But I think there was a ton of Coke back then. Oh my God. The 80s ate all the Coke. They did. And at the beginning of the 80s, they thought Coke wasn't bad for you.

They honestly believed it was like B12, which is the greatest. So anyway, at this bar is a guy named Robert Chambers, and he was as it's, I found an old people magazine article from 1986. I bet it's worth so much money, which is well, it was online. But yeah, if I had the real thing, but it talked about, here's how it described him. Robert Chambers seemed like every teen girl's dream, the son of a record promoter. He grew up in an elegant townhouse next to Carnegie mansion. And as a child, he belonged to the Knickerbocker Greys, which was an anachronistic, but very

uppercrust boys drill team whose members have included Vanderbilt, Roosevelt, and Rockefellers. He was no scholar, but he'd been a debate team member at soccer star at York Preparatory School. He was a rather charming, pleasant society boy, sums up his former headmaster. Every girl had a crush on him. So he would have never dated us is what you're saying. Oh no. This guy, if I was in the bar with him, he would have looked past me like I was part

of the wallpaper. Oh my God. And but, but he had kind of fallen on hard times. And the thing is, with the perspective of knowing that this was a world of like, spary top siters, people like, I grew up in a farm town and people tried to pretend like they were preppies. Because preppy was basically saying, you go to prep school, you're rich. And no one was in my town, yet tons of people tried to dress like that.

That was like the mall culture and the like the look of, yeah, of the day, clean cut wealth. And like influence too. Because if you were like, yeah, he went to school with fucking Vanderbilt's influence. Exactly. So his parents got divorced and then the money stopped coming in from the dad. And he also, they say from age 14, he had a pretty bad drug habit. So his parents had separated. He got kicked out of Boston University for bad grades.

And that was, he was only 19 when this happened. So he'd only been there for a year. So he fucked up there pretty quickly. According to his advisor, he'd been treated the spring before a drug rehab program in Minnesota for Coke. But he came back to New York City and it was quote unquote on the circuit. And he was six foot three, 220 pounds. And he was as popular as ever when he came back.

Did you see a photo of him? Was he super hot? Yes. You know who he looks like? He's like a kind of a more buffed out. You remember the reporter from making a murderer who was that good looking guy? He looks like that guy, but with a crazier, more cartoony square chin. Wow.

So like good jeans, sharp faced, the kind of the first guy you would see when you walk into a bar. Did he have your favorite attribute of a person? High forehead. Did he care? I think he did. He was perfectly set up. He was like tall football player looking, blue eyes, dark hair, big eyebrows.

How does none of those children ever turn out like just kind of ugly or plain? No, because it's there. It's all the breeding. It's like those, the rich people don't pick plain people. It's not like, I love this handsome woman for her brain. That never fucking happens. That makes sense. Kind of ever.

So anyway. Sorry. Go on. So he was there and then this girl, Jennifer Levin was there and she was described as a magnet. Everyone seemed to gravitate toward her. She was five, seven, 120 pounds, brunette with great style. She was the best looking and best figure in our senior class yearbook.

She liked parties better than books, but she had a goal. She had saved $1,600 from working in a restaurant over the summer and she was sending herself to junior college. So she wasn't a rich, wasn't a rich girl. No, but she was like in the mix. So I think she was like, she may have gone to those schools, but no, it sounded like she was more, um, yeah. She was more of a made herself.

She's the perfect murder victim, self-made. That's right. Well, the thing is like her, she had an uncle that wrote for sports illustrated. I don't remember what her parents did. I do remember, um, very distantly reading a big long article about her either in the New York times or the New Yorker, but it was all about how her parents were more like the arty types. Like someone had money somewhere, but like she had to earn her own.

And so you'll see this girl gets totally fucking reamed by these, this defense attorney set up. I'm going to tell me, okay, keep going. I'm sorry. I never, I don't know this one. I'm so excited. Okay. This was, this was kind of amazing.

And actually looking back on it now, I'm amazed of how we all just ingested things. There was, you know, no internet. You just kind of took it as it was given to you. So, um, so this is just a quick story. She had charm. And they recalled what happened one day, three weeks ago, three weeks before the murder, when she writing in a taxi told the cavity that she was nervous about her impending driver's exam before long, the hackage shut off the meter and it was tutoring her in parallel

parking. So that's how charming she was. She never got to take that test because she went to Dorian's red hand that night and everyone was there kind of saying goodbye and like everyone's going off to college, whatever. And Robert Chambers is there. Now they had dated a little bit, uh, before that Robert Chambers current girlfriend breaks up with him in front of everybody by throwing a bag of condoms at him and saying, you're not going to be using these with me anymore.

And people think that the reason she broke up with him was because of Jennifer Levin that she found out that he had been cheating on her with Jennifer Levin. That's a theory. I didn't find anything that was like, this is definitive. Yeah. It's definitive that this girl very publicly humiliated him and broke up with him in the really hideous way. So at four is somewhere I, there was a couple of different times listed in different articles

I read somewhere between 345 and 430 in the morning, Jennifer and Robert Chambers leave this bar and walk across the street into, um, Central Park, which is apparently the common thing as people would like, they said if Dorian's red hand was the meat market, Central Park was the girl, so you'd like, you'd meet somebody and chat with them and everyone would go into the park to have sex. That's like, that was a dangerous park back then. Yeah. Yeah.

Like what respectable girl wants to get boned in Central Park, but I guess it was kind of like also upper West side, if it is West side, which I think it is, um, I remember walking there when I lived in New York and being shocked at how safe it seemed. But I was walking home at like 11 o'clock at night. The streets are super busy, well lit. There's a doorman every 500 feet. That's true. I think also they lived in a world where they thought nothing could ever happen to them.

Right. So, uh, two hours later, Jennifer's body is found by a bicyclist in writing through Central Park. Um, it's found behind the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Her shirt and bra are pushed up around her neck. Her skirt is above her waist and her underwear are 50 yards away and her whole body is bruised and battered, has cuts and bite marks all over it. Wow.

So the police start processing the scene and they don't say how they know this, but I found this in every article about this. Robert Chambers watched the police process the scene from across the street. He lived like minutes away walking distance and he watched them as like they put up the tape and did the whole thing. Really like the doorman said he was, he was standing outside the door or something. Yes. Someone, someone saw it.

So basically when the cops do their footwork, they find out that he's the last person seen with her. So they go to his fancy townhouse. He opens the door and he's got scratches on his face and arms. And it's, when you see the picture, it literally is like one long one in the middle and little ones down the side. It's a hand scratch down his face. And he had them on his arms and he said it was his cat.

Then the cats, then the cops find out the cat had been de-clawed. So then his, then he changes the story and said, yes, I did leave the bar with her, but then she left to go get cigarettes and I never saw her after that. Well she didn't smoke. Oh, okay. So then finally they get him, he has a taped confession and this is what his tape confession is. He says, he and Jennifer had gone from the bar to Central Park where they had sex, including

a bondage game in which Levin tied up Chambers' wrists with her panties. In the middle of this, in his version of events, something went wrong. She hurt me, he says. I told her to stop, she wouldn't. So freeing his hands, he said, I pulled her backwards and then he claims he hid her once. And that's how she got killed. It is so unfair, dude. It's so unfair.

Well, the assistant district attorney who was in that interview said to him, I've been in this business a while and you're the first man I've seen raped in Central Park. So people weren't buying it from the outset. It just upsets me so much when a person like him can't just, you're taking a little responsibility, just go the whole way instead of blaming it on her. It's so unfair. I know, but it's, we are talking about, this is like, I'm sure part of it. This is a drug addict.

This is a person who's slowly sliding down the status, the status mountain. And he probably is used to getting everything he wants and having everything go his way. And if he's a narcissist and possibly a sociopath, he's not going to handle this correctly ever. Or cop to it. And he probably doesn't have the kind of parents that are like, hey, guess what? Do the right thing. Yeah. That's true.

I guess I'm coming at it from my own personality. Why can't things be good? Right. Yeah. Of course. So this race scenario was considered to be highly unlikely in the light of the fact that Chambers was more than a foot taller than Jennifer. She was, oh, this says she was five foot four.

That's much different than five, seven, which is from the different article. Anyway, but he was a foot taller than her and a hundred pounds heavier than her. So everyone's just like, yeah, I don't think so. Now here's the problem. The way his defense attorneys did it, the articles that start coming out, uh, because of course the media has to go with the, the, the grossest version of the story. So the New York Daily News had headlines like how Jennifer courted death and sex play got rough and her reputation was totally attacked while, while Chambers was portrayed as a Kennedy

esque preppy altar boy with a promising future. Oh, why media? Why? I mean, and it's that gross thing of like, I see, you see people talking about it online all the time now where it's like that plant parenthood shooter where they were like, it's he was sad and lonely. And it's like, why are we talking about how hard it was for the guy who just shot at these people were not talking about the victims.

Maybe they were sad and lonely too. And they, but they didn't fucking shoot. I mean, it's the weird media bias that, you know, we're all starting to become more and more aware of this. And it's like one, one outlet picks it up and the others all have to go along with it. Right. And it's like, it's the same thing as these days of like clickbait. It's just old, the old version of clickbait.

Yeah. Um, in, in court, um, the defense sought to depict Levin as a promiscuous woman who kept a quote unquote sex diary, except for that never existed. She had a small notebook that contained the names and phone numbers of her friends and notations of ordinary appointment. So she just had like a day runner, like everybody else. And they tried to say she had a sex diary and she was that much of a slut. Even as if, Hey, guess what?

Even if that was true, you don't get to murder her now, but in the eighties, that's a legitimate defense. Yeah. Um, but these tasks, tactics, luckily, uh, they were met with public outrage and there were pre protesters demonstrating outside the courtroom, um, calling themselves justice for Jennifer. And people got super pissed that that's the way they did it. Um, and the prosecutors came right out and said he was high and drunk and he killed her

in a rage because he could not perform sexual and that's really what happened. Um, the jury deadlocked for nine days, a plea bargain was struck in which chambers pleaded guilty to a lesser crime of manslaughter in the first degree, which is a class B felony and a one count of burglary for thefts from 1986. Who cares about that? Um, so he served from March 22nd, 1988 to February 14th, 2003. And then, but he's still in jail now because he got out and almost immediately got arrested again for selling drugs.

Like he tried to move to the South with his girlfriend, then he moved back to New York and basically just, they got him immediately and he's still in jail now. What was it? What was it like in jail for him that he immediately went out and sold drugs? Like he just didn't learn a fucking thing. He didn't. Yeah. So he got clean and I think he probably knowing that that was something he would have to face

once he did. Yeah. He's just like, fuck it. I'm, how did he get paroled if he wasn't even fucking like reformed or like, I mean, right? Yeah. These are the questions that we ask every fucking episode now, but here's the gross part or a grosser part.

In April 1988, the tabloid television program, a current affair, obtained and broadcast a home video showing chambers at a party when he was free on bail. So this was before he, before the trial, and he was shown in the video playing with four lingerie clad girls, choking himself with his hands while making loud gagging noises, twisting a Barbie doll's head off and saying in a falsetto, my name is oops, I think I killed it. What? And there is a movie called the preppy murder starring William Baldwin and Laura Flynn Boyle

as Jennifer Levin. Oh no. That you can watch if you want to hear even more of that hideous story. That makes me so sad. I want to know, I want to know how, I want to know how his parents, how they reacted, what they're doing now. They keep in touch with him. I want to know everything.

Well, and also there was a ton of like, to me, this is about, he, he was very Catholic. He had a lot of family in the Catholic church in New York city. There was a lot of like, or not Anglican, but his Catholic priests coming forward and people kind of attesting because he was this fucking altar boy. Yeah. It was all that shit. And it's, to me, it's the sexuality issue between the Catholics and Jewish people where it's a healthy, normal thing to have sex and be sexual.

She was Jewish and he was Catholic. Yeah. And I think it was, there is that cultural thing of like, oh yeah, but she deserved it. Yeah. Or she was loose or she did stuff like this. Or she was like asking for it. She was asking for it. I mean, the, the tying up thing is interesting to me because, all right, let's say you were

going to go into Central Park to fool around when you're drinking. Like you just have a quick fuck. You don't, you don't role play and get into, you know what I mean? Like, I can't imagine someone being like, let's get, let's get so complicated into like our sex acts that we get, that we play with bondage in a park, maybe at home, but not in a park. And also in my opinion, the way that her clothes were, it does not sound like she was, she was, um, complicit in what was happening.

Her shirt and bra being pulled up to her neck. Yeah. Everything just seems like, I get it. If it's a quickie, you leave your clothes on and pull your skirt up fine. You know what I mean? Like it's that kind of shit. And then being bitten all over, like nothing lines up to, to anything being casual sex at all.

No. It's violent. Absolutely not. So he's still in prison then. He's still in prison. Thank God. Yeah. And I think it's, um, I don't know, it makes me happy that people were protesting, but

I think it's a really good thing of when you get fed a story of like rough, the whole idea of rough sex was completely a fabrication on his part. And then this fucking newspaper just runs with it. Yeah. So it's like, oh, they, they had rough sex and it went out of control. No, no, no. Yeah. She thought she was going to have a fun make out session with the cutest guy in the bar

and he fucking killed her. I wonder where they got the information that they had dated before because that suggests that she was like willing, willing. So I wonder if that's even true or what it means that they'd like, maybe they went out one, you know, on a date. Yeah, exactly. But to me, when it's hot, when it says like, well, they went out before it's like, well, they had screwed before and they were going to screw again in the park.

So maybe that wasn't true. And yeah, he raped her because it sounds like they had had sex before from the information, but that could not be true at all. Well, also, you know, it makes me think of as like this. We all like people for superficial reasons at first. So it's like, it's the tall, really good looking guy who I'm sure was incredibly charming because he knew how to mix in and blend in to make sure he could fit in with the rich kids.

And so I'm sure it's that thing of like the guy that you love in the bar, but then when shit goes down and like, it's like, they're making out, he can't get hard. It's her fucking fault. Totally. It's that creepy thing where it's like, you don't know who people really are. Until like the shit goes down, especially had Coke, Dick. Yeah. Everyone knows what Coke, Dick is, right?

I hope so. That'll be a very special episode. I hope people who listen to this know that because otherwise it's just people that shouldn't be listening to this at all. So that's mine. Wow. I had never heard of that one. Really?

I couldn't read when it happened. So maybe that was kept away from me. Yeah, probably. Yeah. It's so, you know, they made it as sort of as possible. Yeah. God, that's so awful. Hey, I'm Aresha.

And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston, Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true

self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Well, actually, so my murder from the 1980s is one that I hadn't heard about until the Facebook group talked about it. You know about it. But I had never heard of this one, and it's so intense and fucked up that I wanted to

talk about it in case other people hadn't heard it too, because I want to ruin everyone's life. Yay, I'm so excited. And I guess there's like fucked up photos online that you could see of the crime scene with the bodies. The ones I saw, the bodies are like blacked out, but you can see certain things about it too. And I guess the photos are really troubling, and I'm shocked that I didn't click on it.

Yes. Do you mind if I guess? Yes. Is it Cabin 23 or the Keddie murder? It sure is. Fuck, yes. I only know very little. It's Cabin 28.

Oh, see, I don't know that much. But I love this one because it's so fucking weird and mysterious. Not that far from your hometown, right? Well, it's hours in, but it's like, it's Central California. Which is a very weird area. Northern Central California is like no man's land. Totally, totally. I mean, it's back, for California, it's backwards.

Which is so surprising. You come to LA and you go to San Francisco and you, you know, you, all these little towns and you don't think it's like that, but then you, but nope. Yeah, there's a lot of little towns, little mining towns and such where people just stayed in cooked meth. That's exactly right. It's like bikers and drugs, essentially. Please don't kill us.

There's definitely good bikers out there. There's very good bikers out there, for sure. I'm just making sure that, okay. All right. So the Keddie Murders, K-E-D-D-I-E, it's an unsolved 1981 American quadruple homicide that occurred in Keddie, California, which was a former resort town in the foothills of California's Sierra Nevada. And so it was kind of, it seemed like this little lake or this little forested area with

cabins, a bunch of cabins, this, the murder took place in cabin 28 during the late evening of April 11th, 1981, or the early morning of the 12th. So there were three victims, as I said, the, the first one was Sue. Her name was Glenna Sue Sharp and she was 36 and her son, John, who was 15 and John's friend Dana, Wingate, who was 17. And at some, some point after the crime, it was realized that Sue's daughter, Tina, who was 12, was missing. So what happened was Sue, Sharp and her five children had been waiting, like renting the

cabin since November, 1980. And on the night of April 11th, it's so complicated because Sue is home with her two youngest boys were little kids and a friend of their, of theirs named Justin was staying the night. So there were three little kids in the back bedroom, three boys. And this is a tiny cabin. You can see pictures online of the crime scene and what a small cabinet was. And Tina came home, their oldest, Sue's oldest daughter stayed at the cabin next door, which is always like, you know, like the chances man, yes, you know, and Tina, the 12 year

old was wanting to stay with them. And they were like, no, we want to, you know, where the older girls want to be alone, which like the guilt that she must have carried with her, the worst for the older sister for the rest of her life. So it's 10pm and the next morning, the older sister Sheila comes home and finds Sue and her brother and her brother spent day not just brutally murdered, brutally murdered. Let's see. They had all, all three victims had been bound with medical tape and electrical appliance

wire over 22 feet of medical tape, a varying widths were found on the bodies. And there was no medical tape in the house, so it came from somewhere else. The bodies had been bludgeoned with hammers, two distinct size hammers, so two different hammers. And Sue and John have been stabbed repeatedly, including stab wounds to the throat, which is like, fuck stabbiness, man. Is that going to be inspirational? No.

It is to me. Like stabby stabby in the head. And the neck is like, because how long does it take to die from a stab wound? Dude, I don't know. But it just makes me think of my favorite show, I survived and there are people who talk about being stabbed in the head. And it actually isn't so bad for the person because there aren't that many nerves in your head.

But of course it is. I mean, that's a terrible thing to say, not bad, but I mean like, but yeah, it's horrifying. Just being stabbed is horrifying. I know a guy who got his, his fucking throat slit and survived. I want to meet that person. He was at the beach with his friends and some like fucking psycho like meth had gotten a fight with him and he was walking away and the guy came up behind him and he has like a gnarly, like tried to kill him.

Whoa. Slice. Guys, can we just say this right now? Don't do meth. I have some fucking lily. Meth is like, it's basically meth is like devil powder. It's boiling. It's boiling your brain and all your, your fucking logical thinking.

It's not good. If you're, if you have a temper to begin with, it's just going to fuck coke too. Don't snort shit. Yeah. No, don't snort it. But, but meth, I have a friend Dave who was on meth for years and he couldn't get off of it because it's insanely cheap and it's highly addictive and yet it's, there's shit in it that should never be in the human body.

No. Terrible. Oh my God. Trash in it. We do not condone meth on this podcast. We're fucking lily not. No way. We don't condone murder either.

Even for our own entertainment. Please. Nope. We're against it. We do want to discuss it though. We do. Um, but if you guys murder someone and it's like you blame it on my favorite murder, we will not talk about it.

Let's just agree that right now. Yeah. You won't get famous on this. No. We will not talk about it. That's good. We should have said that in the beginning. If this is somehow tied to the Facebook group to fuck, if you guys, they keep wanting

to have meetups, we're not going to, we have nothing to do with that. We're not going to talk about it. We don't, I don't condone a meetup from my favorite murder group unless it's going to a live show that we're doing and even then please don't murder us. Guys, please be, just be careful. Oh my God. Be careful. Don't get stabbed in the head.

Anyway, keep going. Anyways, stabbed in the head. We actually, that like that going off like that is a little messy of us. Yeah. Which part? How we just didn't went down that path. We both had like three cups of coffee. Yeah, that's very true.

Lunch. We both had a lot of coffee. So found near John's body was a flimsy table knife and a bloody hammer, seven inch butcher knife was found nearby as well. Fuck man. Seven inch butcher knife, examination of the body is determined that each of the victims had been bludgeoned with, I already said all that, stab wounds to the throat, Dana, the boy who wasn't the, who was the friend was manually strangled to death and bludgeoned

with another weapon. While Sue was bludgeoned with a rifle brought by the killers, such a weird one pellet from that rifle for fire from the rifle, along with several pieces of the barrel sights. I don't know what that is. I can imagine we're removed from the scene, but the rifle itself is never recovered. Barrel sights are the little things that stick up that help you aim at the, at the end of the barrel when you're shooting. Are you a murderer?

No country. It's just, that's like BB gun, you know, like rifle stuff. I think I'm right. I'm pretty sure. I believe it. Don't correct us. That's our new thing. We never want to be correct.

Don't correct us. It's going to be in the back of the shirts we make. If we're wrong, let it be. Yeah. Don't be a know it off. A bloody knife was also found among evidence found in the trap. Okay. So, so basically the cops completely mungled this investigation.

So Tina is missing. She's the 12 year old girl, which they didn't realize right away and cause the whole fucking family is dead. Right? Well, the three boys in the back are fine and alive and supposedly didn't hear anything, but there's conflicting evidence. There's a blood stain on the door of the kids room and the, and this one of the main suspects, his son was one of the kids in the back room.

So why wouldn't he kill that kid? And it's also, there's also, you know, who, who was the target of this murder and why? And it's thought that Sue, the mom was because she knew something maybe about drug making. Maybe she was, you know, that one of the prime suspects wife hated her and didn't know that the boys would be home because I guess they were at a local bar and hitchhiked home and weren't expected to be home. So this murderer might have come into either rape her, something and got and didn't expect Tina, the little 12 year old girl would be sharing a room with the mom.

So then had to kidnap her. So she's gone. She's found four years, she's found in 1984. Her skull and several other bones were recovered in Butte County. And was that far away? I don't know, but the skull was initially found and they thought it was of a young boy and an anonymous caller called twice and said it's actually Sue or it's actually Tina. And guess how many tapes they lost of that recording?

Both of them. All of them. So the anonymous caller, no trace of him. It also is said, I know, it's also said that a teacher had an obsession with Tina. So maybe that was the case because she was missing, but they were able to age the skull. She was the same age. She was killed pretty much right away. Oh yeah.

So she was stolen and kid and kidnapped and held kept. Yeah. Yeah. So she was killed. Um, let's see. So the boys, but okay, the boys were found uninjured, the case grew cold. Um, let's see. They released the original and backup copy of the audio, the anonymous call to an undisclosed

member of law enforcement and they were released to the same person and they disappeared. Let's see. The murders remain unsolved. Oh, look, it's active because good old fucking Reddit is like on the case. Yeah. And this is where I got a lot of information from, including the, um, the main, um, suspects, which is Martin Smart and his friend, John Bobed, B-O-U-B-E-D, Bobiti. Bobiti.

So smart was an extra neighbor who was good friends with the local sheriff, like besties with the local sheriff, right? And it was smart stepson who was staying in the cabin, who was the little kid in the back. And then when he was questioned by law enforcement, he slipped up and said, um, he's quite enough to where he could have noticed something without me detecting him, indicating your stepson was a quiet kid that might have been, might, might have seen you at a murder scene, right? And then those other kids, the little, the little, other little kids terrified. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Right. Let's see. And then Bo, Bo, Bobiti had FBI connections and was federally prosecuted because some of organized crime shit. So this guy was a fucking criminal as well. And it's like, I was reading this shit and there are so many criminals that were in this town that it was like a multitude of suspects could have been even, um, let's see, hold

on, let's see, there were questions, circumstantial evidence, but they're reopening the case. Oh. And, but they've both died of national natural causes since then. Those two suspects. Yeah. Which is like such a bummer that, uh, when, when, when the main suspects die and even when they keep searching and like come to the conclusion, it's just, it's such a bummer. Well, what's super weird to me is usually when people get killed because they find out

something they're not supposed to know about say a case or a drug deal or whatever. You don't get bludgeoned and, and stabbed a bunch of times. That's personal. That's true. And so Sue's body was tied up in a way that was super sexual, but she wasn't raped. She was basically found naked from the waist down, splayed open in a humiliating manner. Which is like, it's almost like the wanting the person who finds them to be, uh, you know, freak the fuck out.

Yeah. Luckily, they'll grade her. Right. Luckily, the older sister was smart enough to, to make the little boys in the back room come out of the window so they didn't have to see this scene. And the other thing is the kid, the kid who, um, who wasn't part of the family, his head was placed on like a pillow. So it's almost like they were taking care of him as if they knew him, um, and he, and

he wasn't killed in the same manner that the other kids were killed. Like he was basically just a witness and had to go. Right. So maybe they were, you know, it sounds like someone was pissed off at this woman and this family and fucking sent some kind of message to whom. I don't know. It's also said that, um, there's a, so there's a sketch of a suspect that, uh, I think one of the kids drew because they did say they saw someone or one of the kids and it looks

a lot like it's very similar to in and like, and they lived about four hours south of Kettie, which is of course, um, the big serial killers. And if you look at the sketch online, it fucking looks like them apparently was my Charlesing might have been in prison at the time, although it's kind of unclear with it. It's a sketch of one person or two people. I can't really tell it's, it might be a sketch of one person and two different looks. Oh, I see. It definitely looked like, uh, Lake, what was Lake's first name?

Leonard Lake. Leonard Lake. Thank you. My Lord. So, um, I was so proud that I just thought of that. I know. I'm really impressed with you. I never remember anything.

I don't even, I'm perfect for having podcasts, right? Sure. So in the, in the, in this past couple months, the, uh, Plumas County Sheriff Greg Hagward has said, we're arriving at points where we're going to be taking some next steps in the case. And they're crediting Reddit. Yes. I love that.

It's because these fucking people have become obsessed with the case and are like dissecting it completely. It's pretty amazing. They tore down the cabin recently because people were just like fucking going there all the time. Um, Hagwood said, there are people, some still living in the county who know what happened and were possibly involved, whether directly or after the fact, um, and circumstantial evidence was never enough to charge these two guys that, that, uh, everyone thinks did

it. Um, and so, so Dana win gate, the kid who was a friend who came over was not killed in the same fashion as the other two. He was beaten, but not stabbed. He was strangled and was made comfortable by receiving a cushion from the couch to rest his head on prior to the execution. And you can see photos where like his head is blacked out, but you can see that, um, his head is on a fucking pillow and they're all like next to each other too, which is

so awful to see each other die that way. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm going to say about this is that so John and Dana, the two boys who were killed with the two men who were killed were last seen walking along state route 70 near Quincy. So they were on their way home and the crime may have already been in progress when they arrived at home. So I feel like Sue was the target, whether it was for rape, um, or some kind of revenge

or something like that. I think maybe she wasn't even supposed to get killed. So it sounds to me like it was a botched and then they walked in and the whole thing turned into like, right, some kind of like a fight where they, and they had to kill everybody. Yeah. It sounds like it, except for the kids in the back who maybe was one of the suspects kid stepson. Fucked up.

Fucked up. Oh, and someone on Reddit wrote, uh, Katie holds many skeletons in its closet. There were in 1981, so many potential perps in town that you could have stood in the main street thrown a dart with your eyes closed and hit one. The Sharp family were in this idyllic little resort town surrounded by child blasters, drug runners, professional criminals, corrupt cops and businessmen, habitual transient and at least one known serial killer. Fuck.

I know. Who's the known serial killer? Do you know? I don't know. I love that. I know. I had his name, but I had never heard of him and I forgot to look him up because I know it's so, um, uh, because it makes me think the

they're reopening it now, not, of course, because the Reddit thing, I love the way this is like people are just be like, fine, if you're not going to solve it, we're going to fucking solve it. Yeah. And everyone keeps coming to the same conclusion. Yeah. That's amazing. But also if it was an inside job or if it was some kind of like corrupt cop situation,

those people, it's like their power is gone. And so though there's like new blood that's like, yeah, we can't have this just sitting and being like defining our town. Well, actually the main, the new sheriff was around back then. He initially got fired before the murders because he said something inflammatory against the then sheriff who was like, you're out of here. But then when he got back on, on the, it was reinstated, um, they forbade, forbade him from, from researching this case.

Huh. So now what's weird now that he's the sheriff, he's like super fucking into it. It is on. And it's on. I wonder how much, uh, evidence is missing, like those tapes, like I wonder how much people fucked with it. Yeah. How hard it's going to be.

You know what I mean? Well, the fact that the main, the main suspect was one of the sheriff's like best buds. And, and, and, uh, evidence got lost says so much about it. Yeah. That's very suspicious. Yeah. Evidence doesn't just get lost. Right.

Um, you know how I first found out about this murder and it surprised me because it is in California, although it really is like a different state that, that part of California is like, there's just no one lives up there. And then the people that do are the people who are trying to get away. Absolutely. Essentially. Um, but do you ever see the movie, the strangers? Oh, it's based on that.

Well, that's what they say, but they were like, cause the strangers was billed as a true story. But then when I, after I saw the strangers, I was like, that was so fucking crazy. What's the true story? And they're basically like the Manson murders and the Keddie cabin murders. So I didn't, I never saw that movie. It's not similar at all. Well, it's just people killing other people for no reason essentially.

It's the loosest version of it based on a true story. Well, there is a documentary about this murder that came out in 2004 that I think it was some kind of teacher was teaching his kids how to make a documentary and someone suggested this murder and the guy, the teacher got obsessed with it. So I guess there's a pretty good documentary online. You probably find it on YouTube. Oh, I think it's called cabin 28 and it's just all the details of the murder. Love it.

Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. And, uh, it's fucked up 1980, man fucked up the eighties, the eighties. Thank you. In a lot of places, not as Cindy Loppers, you would, you would want it to be. She did not get spread far and wide. Let's see.

I'm going to look real quick on our Facebook page and see because we always put what the subject's going to be and, and then you guys can, can tell us what your favorite, uh, murder of the subject is. And as you do that, I'm just going to mention, um, that, uh, a girl whose Twitter handle is action Athena, did a cartoon panel of us. It's from the first episode, I believe. Is it? Um, I think so.

That's what she said. Or it's the first one she heard, um, and, uh, it's, she posted, it's on our Twitter feed, uh, my fave murder at my fave murder. And it's just, of course, we love it. It's us being drawn as us talking to each other in Georgia's living room. But it's just super exciting that people are spending their time, um, making things like that for us and recreating shit we've done. It's a real quote.

It's a real conversation that we had and it's fucking hilarious and very funny. I, it makes, it means so much to me that people care. I know. It's so fun. And it's really cool. Not to tease you guys, but we're going to have t-shirts for sale soon. We're planning a lot, a couple of live shows, maybe once a month if we can. Um, so you're going to, you, you'll hear that first at the Facebook group.

So I would join the Facebook group so you can get like the first and my fave murder on Twitter. We're pretty good at keeping up with that. Okay. So some of, so, so someone named Jessica, we're not saying real names, right? Or someone named Jessica said her favorite is Gary Hyde Nick. He kidnapped and killed women by digging pits in his basement and keeping the women in there.

Straight up Buffalo bill. Shit. Whoa. Yeah. I've never heard of that. Someone named Amber said, I think this is one, this one is kind of weird and obscure. But in 1985, a little girl was a girl named Cinnamon Brown. She was 14, killed her stepmom at her father's behest, then tried to overdose on sleeping

pills, which her father also told her to do. I totally remember this one and freaked me out. The police found her unconscious in the dog house outside and arrested her and she was ultimately released in 1992. Apparently the whole reason behind this was that her dad was sleeping with his wife's younger sister, who I think was pregnant with this child at the time, evidently murder seemed much more appealing than divorce. I totally remember this story.

She tried to overdose and was sleeping in the dog house. It was her stepmom or her real mom? It was her real mom. Fuck. That's it. Yeah. Oh, no, no. I'm sorry.

It was her stepmom. No. I mean, it is. But it's all horrible. The idea that to make a child murder someone is just your, you should, here's one more by Myra, Judith Eva Barsi. She was the voice of Ducky in The Land Before Time. Totally remember that.

Her catchphrase, Yep, Yep, Yep, from that movie is inscribed on her grave. Both her and her mother, Maria Barsi, were shot and killed by her father, Joseph Barsi in 1988. She was only 10 years old. Oh, honey, sweet angel, shit. We'll take all the kids. You're thinking about murdering a kid. We'll adopt it for you.

No questions asked. Well, and also just what brand of monster are you that you can kill a child? It's just, it's fascinating. It's his, it's crypto zoology to me. It's like, where are you? How did you get there? What the fuck are you? I mean, as advanced stars, our brains are at the fact that that can still be a thought

that not even cross just crosses our mind, but that you act out, like we're supposed to be way, we're supposed to be evolved way past that. Yeah, it's not good. I know. I'm going to give up my address of people want to drop off their kids at my house instead of killing them. What if I did that? I would edit it out and then we would have a long talk.

No, I want to keep it in. No, you have to let me. It's our first fight. It's my choice. Karen. Oh my God. Great. Let me include my address in the podcast.

Oh, I could give up my P.O. box and if people want to send us shit, they can. Yeah. But that's still scary. What if someone just waits at the P.O. box to kill me? Hey, look. It's okay. No, I don't know what to say. I mean, it just immediately made me think of how there's so many ways to find people

online these days. And I just gave someone an idea. So now if I ever give my P.O. box out, they're like, they got the idea from me. Every way you turn, there's danger. Anxiety medications. Try them. There's so many ways that you can help yourself. This podcast was brought to you by Xanax, not meth.

Lemectal. Lemectal. And the makers of machetes. And therapists. And just talking about it because most of the time that helps a lot. Oh man. Talk about it. Talk about it.

Right. We're talking about this is therapy. It sure it is for me. Yeah. Me too. All right. Anything else? I think that's I think I'm thoroughly depressed.

Yeah. I'm thoroughly stoked. This was a good one. This was fun. I liked this one a lot. What's your next theme be? We should pick it at the end of every episode. Do you think?

Let's do the 90s. Let's just go through the net. Honestly. Yeah. Let's do the 90s. Should we? Yeah. Okay.

Great. Because I found a lot of good ones and every time I saw a year, which one was like, damn it. That actually happened to me too. It was always like either the 70s or the 90s when I was looking. Okay. Let's do the 90s this time and then maybe we can do some of the 70s next time. I wonder if there was like in the 90s, there was some, oh, I was just going to say if there

was a rave murder or a Junko jeans murder and we both know there was, there wasn't that amazing Michael. Is it Selig murder? Yeah. That was crazy. Party Monster is a good movie. Party Monster is a great movie. That's based on that.

I'm sure everyone has seen it. That's listening to this, but oh my God, it's dark. I went to Raves and more Junkos. So dude, it's just once again, it brings I hate to be like, I don't want to sound like the church later or anything because I've done plenty of drugs in my life. But they really are, no one talks about how it's like, oh, pot is the gateway drug to, you know, harder drugs, but harder drugs are the gateway drug to murder. They really are.

Yeah. I don't think I'm not going to say this because it's not true, but no one's, no one's fucking killed anyone on pot. That's not true at all. Yeah. I'm sure it's. You know what it is? It's like someone's car just strangely listed over into, you know, like a guy riding a bike

or something, it's just purely from being out of it. Did you hear that? They just pulled two cars from like the fifties and sixties out of a lake and they six people were found total and they were like missing people. No. And they, these are my favorite. Yeah. All together?

No, their cars were side by side, but they were like years apart that they just drove into this lake and they pulled these two cars that you can see the resting remains of these cars online. Do you remember what city or what state? I want to say Michigan because everything happens in Michigan, but that could be totally wrong. Yeah. Everything happens in Ohio.

Everything. Oh, wait, which reminds me, this is my favorite thing I read on the Facebook page. And so everyone else probably already read it, but I just want to say this because it's so fucking awesome. So there have been all these bodies washing up in this small town in Ohio and the rust belt and there's a bunch of articles about it. There was a guy who posted my hometown murder because I think that's probably where he's from.

And then someone did an update, which is an article from Jezebel about how a sex worker in Las Vegas shot a guy that was trying to murder her and she killed him. And it turned out he had a full on murder kit in his car. He had no money to pay her. He had bleach. He had handcuffs. He had all this, all this stuff. There was no way it wasn't a murder.

He had done it before. He had done it before. He had told her he was going to jail for a very long time right before he thought he was going to kill her. And he had been a security guarded Hoover Dam, which creeped me out for some reason so badly. It's because when people are in some kind of power or authority, you trust them. But they think that this guy might be connected to those rust belt murders because he has been in both places.

Or at least they're like thinking that if he wasn't connected to that, he's definitely killed people before. And she grabbed his gun in some kind of tussle, right? But he was strangling her and she got his gun away from him and shot him dead. Good for her. Fuck yeah. Listen, if you're going to fight back, you got a shoot to kill. Do it.

He's going to kill you. I think about that often. Like if I had the chance to, if I had that chance, I would shoot someone in the fucking head. I wouldn't shoot them in the leg and debilitate them. Also it would be very difficult if you were not a trained professional to then be like, here's how I'm going to incapacitate this person. It's like someone's trying to kill you.

You try to kill them. That's just like. I don't know how to use a gun. So don't fucking come after her. Apparently I just learned that today. Yeah. Every podcast, I'm going to reveal a little bit more and then it's going to turn out that I too am a serial killer.

I'll be like, oh, you know, the safety that you just flip the safety off. What if in our hundredth episode, you murder me? I feel like it'd be a great ending. I don't see what the problem is. Let's say 200. Okay. Or 250. Okay.

All right. We have to finish. Okay. Facebook, Twitter, you know how to find us. Thanks for being there. Thanks for listening. Okay. Bye.

Stay sexy, Karen. Bye bye.