My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 136 - The Uninhibited

Episode Date: August 30, 2018

Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Stanford White and the case of the Boys on the Tracks.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Listen, you've heard it before. Look, you know and look and listen and love it. You do this. We do this part. Yeah. You do that part. It always starts the same, but with different words. But you always get confused every time.

You must be reintroduced. You know, there's a lot of people in the podcasting game. They feel it's very important that at the top of your podcast, you establish what the name of your show is and what the theme of that show is also. Always. And that's Karen Kilgaro. And that's Georgia Heart Star. We never do that part.

We forget that part. And that's why everybody thinks we're the other person. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. But we're not. We're the other person. It's very weird to both of us that you ever would be mistaken.

That's right. About who we are. Because we are so into ourselves that we can't imagine that there's any quality about us that is like anyone else in the world. No, we're such individuals. Mm-hmm. Truly, truly unique. I have a cat on my lap.

Karen has coffee in her hand. Hacking almost of how truly individual we are. True. So, um, Georgia's wearing a little sundress that I got her when I went to Kauai at the Kauai drugstore. That's right. I love it. It's so comfortable.

It looks like a real dress. Yeah. Exciting to give a gift someone actually uses. It's a secret not real dress that I wear out in public pretending to be an actually dressed person. Yeah. When really I'm wearing fucking pajamas. Yeah, you are.

You know what I mean? I do. And I respect it. Thank you. Like, I can't get to the pajama pant thing yet that I see other women doing that I'm like, that looks okay. I could do that. I can't do that yet.

You mean when someone's standing at like the red box machine out in front of the grocery store and they're wearing pants that have like Christmas trees on them and you're like, those are pajamas. No, not so much that because that's okay if the red box machine you're going directly home. It's the more like the like I'm at the cafe working and I have like the you can't I mean there's like there's a level of comfortable in your clothing that I just like that you can't wear in public to me.

I don't know what you're talking about. You have to always be a little uncomfortable in clothes. That's why I change immediately when I get home. Again, just don't know what you're saying have never ever ever felt that way or dress that way. I'm getting there. Hence the stress. Join me in slob land.

Listen, you're married girl. That's nothing. You've no skin in this fucking game. I'm the one that should be uncomfortable all time. All I want is to burn every single bra. I've already gotten to no fucking underwire bras just doesn't exist in my life anymore. I don't have a choice there. Right.

Okay. Well, like I do. So like why am I still fucking wearing wires? Yeah. Fuck that shit. Dude. I'm 100%. And with this dress, which is like got the scrunchie top up top, you know, so like it doesn't

you can't tell. It does the work for you. Yeah. And then it has these little bows up top. So like I can't even wear a bra. And you know, it'll show. It's summertime. We all have to go bra lists.

This is a nightgown that should say like something like a funny like quote on the front that I just wear on the house. How about fuck you? I'm married. That would be fun. But okay. Immediately. Our new fucking t-shirt.

I'm not kidding you. How many people would wear that? What does it have on it? What's the what's the like? What if it was just in real puffy letters like from the 80s? Like, um, you know, like it almost looks like a cheerleader drew it on a poster. Yeah. Like fuck you.

I'm really excited and happy about it. Totally. Like jazz, Hansie. Yeah. I might be cutting into the, uh, bachelorette party game right now. Oh, great. Let's do a fucking line of bachelor fucking at party clothes. Penises everywhere.

Bachelor fucking at. Cause I was like, bachelor doesn't make any sense. I'm gonna, if you want to add something to the sentence that you said wrong and you say fucking in between, it just sounds like you did it on purpose. Yeah. That's your little conjunction freight train car that it gets you, it gets you back into the conversation. Are you talking about conjunction junction?

Yeah. That's your function now. Hey, real quick, uh, speaking of merch, speaking of merch, this weekend's labor day weekend. We're having a labor day weekend sale where a bunch of our stuff is on sale from the 31st of this month to the third, go to my favorite murder.com and then go to the shop. And I don't know what's going to be on sale, but I think it's cool shit. They're going to clear some shit out and then bring some new shit. Oh, we're about to launch a motherfucking line.

A bunch of things that we've been asked about, when are you going to dot, dot, dot? Yeah. For two years, I would say. I'm so excited about it. I think people are going to be into it. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

And we both in this upcoming line have our own designs, I would say. That's right. Which is very fun. We both went to like our sources and we're like, draw me of this thing. And they drew us to this thing in our own style. So mine's like cute, well, I guess it's similar. This is to me very graphic. Yeah.

Yeah. Like there's a real design element to it. And yours is like Chris Fairbanks did it. So it's like kind of sketched out and like cool and like skateboardery punk rock kind of a thing. I said, just Chris, I'm from this dog town and the Z boys. Can you design me something from my taste? I used to skateboard.

I used to fucking rip up rails. I'm Karen Kilgara. Chris, I'm all about Ollie's and I talk about them constantly. So could you design me something from my world? You know, it's happening. Okay. Okay. So we were, we thought it would be fun because one of our, one of the things we love the most

about this community of murdery knows is how many subgroups have started on Facebook for all the individualized groups of murdery knows because there are so many of you, you've decided to subgroup yourselves according to interest and by cities and stuff, which is like the best. Yeah. If you live in a city and you're a murderer and you, you should definitely just go onto Facebook and look up and see because we just had one on Twitter. Someone tweeted, I believe it was the San Antonio murdering group, small but mighty.

They posted something. They had a meetup. God damn it. This better be San Antonio because I looked at it and I'm sure they had one too. But they raised some money. They raised like 250 bucks for, it may have been in the backlog or joyful heart. The facts are loose. Look, my memory is not to be relied upon.

We're loose with facts here, folks. Yes. And you know that. But people saw that on Twitter and then all these people were like, wait, I need to know about this. I live near there. I'm so excited. There's some people near me.

I have a page right here. And they're going to get a shout out this week. My MFM podcast, Atlanta group. What's up? Atlanta. Oh yeah. Atlanta. Atlanta shows up strong.

Sure. So we're going to, so Stephen printed out, we were like, print us a paper with all the names of the subgroups and he gave us like four pages. So we're going to, we picked a few that we really love and we're going to each name a few. But it's also, we're going to try to name all of them just so if your interest ever comes up, then you'll know. Like for example.

It's all on Facebook, by the way. FYI. Yes. It's, these are Facebook pages. The Cimarinos, who are people who love my favorite murder and also our fans of The Sims. And nature of, or Drew, they created a beautiful rendering of us. Three Sims characters in the, in the visage of Karen, Stephen and Georgia. And Elvis, Mimi and Dottie, which I fucking, I appreciate so much.

I look like a character actor from the thirties, who is 65 years old. Thanks for the face. Whoever did that, clearly not a fan of my work. I love my skirt. Okay. Oh, I'm going next. Okay. Murder Emos.

Murderinos who are emo, which I, as a 19 year old in 99, 2000, can wholly appreciate. And it's fun to say. My favorite bad baby names, which is a subgroup, I guess, where they just share terrible baby names they've heard. As someone who has had so many boring guest jobs in my life, like I appreciate these because God, it's so boring. Yeah. And then you go, well, I actually do love that.

I don't know why, but. And it's like, so they're like, even like stay sexy and watch football. It's like, I kind of love that because it's like, yeah, this is interesting I'm into, but I don't want to talk to just fucking any idiot about it. And I want to talk to like my people about too, and then we could talk about like crimes that happen in the football community. You could use some sort of metaphor during the game that guy is running up the field like us, like so many, and then just fill in the crime there.

I don't feel like doing it. I don't watch football. So I can't do it. You do it. The Jeeperinos. They all have jeeps. They have jeeps. They love jeeps.

They work on jeeps. I used to have a gold Jeep. And so I had a gold Jeep Cherokee Sport. I bought it used. It must have belonged to someone who had a lot of money to throw away at the time and then got all that money taken away. Yes. It was like this beautiful gold two-door Jeep Sport.

My dad took me and I was like, I want that one like a fucking idiot and it had gold, like matching gold rims. Yes. It was like, it was gold on gold. It was like my baby. I love it. Wait, can I, it was the year like 93, 92? I didn't drive until 97.

So that would be great if my dad had taken me to get our car when I was 12 years old. Oh, that's right. Shit. No, it was like 99 when I got that car. It was great. Gold rims, girl. Gold rims. First responderinos.

I would have joined that just for the stories. 100%. Like you come home from a fucking rough shift. Okay, go on. Damn. Those are, there's good stories on there. I like killing it murderistas, which is people who are into this podcast and fashion. Oh, I was going to say baristas.

Okay. This one I get because I've been there. Customer service arenas fucking tell me about it. Just flows off the tongue. I love that. I bet there's amazing stories. Just complaining all day. I used to read blogs just of weight weight staff complaining and it was just the absolute

best fucking thing. So good. Hold on. Oh, drink arenas just I'm with you in spirit. I'm with you in literally in spirits. This is what I like lawyer, lawyers stay sexy and don't get disbarred. Yeah. Please don't.

We need you. Applaud arenas where apparently you go on there and they'll just celebrate. If you have something like that you accomplish and you'd like some credit, they'll applaud you for it, which is beautiful. Sweet. Applaud arenas. Of course we have library arenas, military. There's like the social work arenas, teach arenas, like the people who are like our fucking

bread and butter, like people. Getting together. You know, what is it called? The salt of the earth. Yeah. No, but like our fucking people, the people that are holding it all together. Yes. Thank you.

Civil servants. Also, never forget complain arenas, which I know we've talked about on this podcast before, but they just get on there and bitch and they allow each other to bitch and that makes me laugh. I love it. Mental arenas, mental health worker murder junkies. That goes hand in hand with the bipolar arenas, which if you suffer from bipolar disorder, then you've got some friends in the game.

I take that. It's like group therapy right there. That's an understanding, which is really awesome. Yeah. Like I went through this and I was like, yeah, we've been there. Yeah. Fucking taken out. That's so nice.

That's great. I have to shout out the murderino makers. I follow them on Instagram. They're just the people who fucking are creative and like half the boxes that we haven't opened yet are like from these people who are making shit, selling them on Etsy or just doing it for fun. Such bad asses. So good.

Here's I'll do the last one. Be sexy and join another subgroup. People addicted to joining subgroup. I don't know. Can I do one more? I'm sure. Thank you for being a frienderino. Like golden girl fans.

Yup. That's rad. You can do one more. I didn't want to top you, but I haven't. No, no, no. That's fine. Okay. That's fun.

Yeah. So find your people, but then also stay here with us. Yeah. Don't go. Don't go away. Don't go. It's not over yet. We haven't even started our.

Do we have anything else? I'm really into the center this season. Let's talk about it right now. You get it. You haven't watched it, right? I fuck. Yeah. I've watched every, I think I've watched every episode twice.

Oh, I didn't know you were watching the new season. Why would I not? I don't know. For some reason. In fact, did I not have it be one of my things one week? The center is the show that I was nodding, but I don't mean, no, that means yes or no. It was one of her things. Yeah.

It was your hooray last week, I think. Well, shit. I am not paying attention. Don't look at me in quiet judgment. I looked at her in quiet judgment, then I closed my eyes, which is really scary. If you're trying to freak people out of like not being happy. Do it to me. Do it to me.

Oh, like a. It's a disappointed. Yeah. I have to go deep inside because I'm so hurt. No. To me, I'm a cat person. So that means that you're being, when you slow blink. I love you.

Yeah. I love you too. Um, no. Uh, my, I love this season so much that I know it comes on on Wednesday nights, which I never know. Tonight. We should watch after. What is the, what's the girl from, you should stop recording now and watch it.

What's the girl from who is, who might, I can't spoil this, but the girl, no, no, no, the girlfriend of the, she was from Mindhunter. That's right. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. We could, Steven, do you mind looking up her name?

She was, um. I just screamed an Elvis got real upset. She was one of the, she would probably. She was the girlfriend of this fucking cop in Mindhunter. The young hot cop. Yes. God, thank you. Do you know how much that hurts when you can't think of it?

And I'm a person who can never think of it. I do know how much that hurts and I know how much it hurts when you think Carrie Coons is in everything and she's not, but she is in the center. Can I just say next time you're watching, uh, what's his name, who's the best, uh, Bill Pullman and he's in a moment of like thinking, tell me that he doesn't look like he's trying to see if anyone just smelled as far as I swear to God, he's looking around and being like, did anyone just like in this, like, it's just like, what the fuck, man? But it's really like, did anyone just smell my fart?

Well, cause he also has a guilty, he always has a guilty little turn up of his smiling guiltily. Yeah. That's why that's acting and I'm sure that's acting. If you can turn one side of your mouth in a different direction, that's acting. Let me, how's this? Steve is doing it. Am I doing it?

Am I doing it? Yeah. Oh, you're out. Can you do it without moving your eyebrow? Nope. It just went, it looked like the Joker. All right. Do it again.

Damn it. Hannah Gross. Hannah Gross is the actress who we don't know where she is in, on the center. She's fucking, oh, it's a good show. It's such, it's really set up. Well, I feel like, I think this is what I said last week. It feels like they took the things that were, what they led you to believe was happening in the first season.

Yeah. And now they're giving you all of that mystery in the second season. It's like there, but it's like, it's like creepier. It's so creepy. But I was going to say, sorry, because I was going to say, sorry, Bill Pullman. The reason I've always loved him so, so much because his turn, his star turn in the film while you were sleeping, it's one of the best romantic comedies there is. Bill Pullman.

Sandy Bullock. I haven't seen it in so long. Please rewatch. Oh, he's the brother, right? Yes. And he thinks that she's marrying his hot brother that's in a coma. It's the best movie. It's the best idea for a movie.

It's so charming. It's so Chicago. It's not stalkery. Please watch it. No, no. Okay. She's not, she, it's only not stalkery because she doesn't stalk him. He walks by her.

That's accidental. At the L train. Okay. It's really good. Oh, right. Okay. The last two nights I didn't drink, which is a rarity for me. How was that?

I couldn't sleep. Yeah. So I read one book in two nights. Yes. Good. And also it didn't help because it was a really fucking good book and I couldn't put it down. Okay. And it's called, it's someone sent it to us from some fucking publishing, like people

send us like books that match our shit and like, you know, whatever. But this one was like, okay, it's called The Innocent Wife by Amy Lloyd. It was, it like won the first book that you ever wrote for competition or some shit. It's like, it was her first book, is she Amy Lloyd. And she won that competition. Yeah. And it's like, okay, it's like this, this chick falls in love. This chick is like obsessed with this guy on death row who killed, who got convicted

for killing this little girl in his town and they start writing and she doesn't think he did it and they get married in prison. He gets exonerated. Did he do it? Did he not do it? And he goes, oh, now, is this crazy what's going to happen? Oh, it's like really good. His crime is a, it's a little like reminiscent.

Like she took pieces from West Memphis three kind of feeling like it's the hot name from it. You know, the hot one, Damon Eccles. Damian Eccles, yeah. It's like kind of like, that's like, it seems like that's the archetype. Yes. But it's like about this woman. That's fascinating.

Marrying him and it's like, oh, Jesus Christ. That seems like a big mistake. You know what I mean? I love that. It's her point of view. like they're also like this woman made a documentary about it because she thinks he's innocent and trying to get him exonerated like the movie and like so it's like pieces from that movie and it's fucking good. I read it literally two

fucking nights. Can I borrow it? Yes you can have it it's a big book. Save the name again for the people. The Innocent Wife by Amy Lloyd. Awesome. Good shit. All right. Good job Amy Lloyd prizes on your first trip around. First fucking fiction and it's like. And who was she up against? Nobody. No. That year no one else has written their first book. No A's. No it's read. It's like really fucking good. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh

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get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort but the trail quickly

runs dry as the air supply for the trapped children dwindles a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Uh, you're first. Is it me? All right. Good. Good. I'm glad. I'm not mad. But the only thing I am going to say which I know is well first of all I'm so angry right now because every time I print up my thing I must have my printer set to something weird because I put in you have to put in the page numbers so that you don't lose track of your pages as you read the things as we I'm saying you I mean us

one I mean me and the last couple times I've printed things the page numbers simply aren't there. Oh, simply I'm gonna say formatting. It's a formatting issue. It's an insert issue. Listen, as we told you, we're fast and furious with facts and professionalism and fucking night shirts. Yeah. But not not pajama pants. What's the shirt saying again? I'm fucking married. Fuck you. I'm married. Fuck you. I'm married. I don't know if a ton of people have that feeling but if they do we want to be there for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Okay. I get it. Let's just go and then if these are out of order we'll just have to play by great

then the story is gonna get weird. I just called I just almost called Stephen Elvis. Did you hear me go out Elvis? You might have to edit around this. I'm used to it. You might have to like take pieces of this and put in the right order. Okay. And again, I got this from the first time I ever heard of this crime. It was an episode of Criminal. I'm Phoebe Judge and this is criminal. You're just fucking criminaling it up. Well, you know when you go on a road trip especially a show like Criminal there's so many good ones that I was just keeping a post-it note of like look this up later. Yeah. Whoa. Who was that? That's Mimi.

Okay. She likes to yell it out sometimes. Okay, Mimi. All right. I listened to it on Criminal but then I watched a woman who was a professor and an author named Paula Uroborough. Uroborough. That can't be right. I think it is. Okay. She wrote a book called American Eve the birth of the it girl in the crime of the century and she then when I went back to re listen to that episode of Criminal to get the facts. She's the expert on that episode. What do you know? So it's all the same. I mean she's the expert on this crime and and what have you. So it's the this is the case of the original it girl Evelyn Nesbitt and the murder of

Stanford White. Yes. This is fucking the craziest story and old. Classic. Which I love. Okay, so I'll just do it as quickly as I can and then I'm gonna get out of here. And then you can do whatever you want. She's gonna go watch the center while I finish up while I do my murder. I have to meet Bill Pullman downstairs if you don't mind. Okay. So this woman Evelyn Nesbitt was born actually Florence Evelyn Nesbitt in Tarantum, Pennsylvania. Just let us know how let us know how you will you will on Christmas Day 1884. Although people aren't sure if that was the year because her mother faked her age to make her

seem older for the labor laws. Oh, that's a first. Yeah. So she might actually be younger than that. She was declared the most beautiful baby ever to have been born in that county. Doubt it. Doubt it and also probably not that hard. Yeah, I mean back then. Yeah, babies were fucking. They're all splotchy and if you just had one that was like kind of okay in the face, they'd be like unbelievable. Put her up on the pedestal. They literally had a pedestal in the little town. Yeah. Okay. So everything was fine. Her father was a lawyer. Her mother was a housekeeper and then he has a heart attack when she's 11 years old

and leaves the family high and dry. So it dies or just leaves the family. Oh, he dies back then. If you had heart attack, you were immediately dead. There was no looking at it. Got it. Got it. Got it. So yeah, he dies. So her mother, her mother's name is Evelyn. So in the beginning of the story, Evelyn's name is Florence and her mother's name is Evelyn. But I'm just going to switch that because she's mostly known as Evelyn and it's a hard adjustment. So basically Evelyn, she was a seamstress and she was a dressmaker, but she didn't. She mostly was a housekeeper or a homemaker, I should say. And so she didn't, they were, they were

basically had to rely on the kindness of their family and friends. So they stayed with relatives for a while and they kind of tried to keep it together and eventually people got like a pool of money together that and gave it to the family. A Kickstarter. They go funded the shit out of this family at the turn of the century and that enabled them to buy their own boarding house. Damn. I don't know if that would be the move I would make because Mrs. Nesbitt was so timid that she was uncomfortable collecting the rent from the people who stayed there every month or every week. It's like your one most important job.

It's pretty much it besides providing rooms. So she would make her daughter go because her daughter was so beautiful and charming that she would make the 12 year old go collect the rent from people who didn't want to give it to them. Okay. The whole thing seems not super great for a child. So basically that business ends up failing. They moved to Philadelphia in 1898 because they were from a small town outside of Philly. So they move into the city in 1898 and Mrs. Nesbitt gets a job at Wanamaker's department store which sounds like the name of department store out of a movie. Totally. She's a sales clerk. She also

gets her two children 14 year old Evelyn and 12 year old Howard full-time jobs at this department store. Great. So everybody make a living fuckers. Yeah. All y'all you got to pull down some cash for the fam. Mully. So one day there's an artist that's at the store and she sees Evelyn and she thinks she's the most beautiful young girl she's ever seen and she asks Mrs. Nesbitt can she sit and pose for me for a portrait Mrs. Nesbitt's like sure. And so Evelyn does that and gets paid a dollar to sit for five hours for this artist. Hard pass. But back then that was eight million dollars. So it turns out great and that artist ends up

recommending Evelyn as a model to her other artist friends. So then Evelyn starts getting modeling work regularly. Mrs. Nesbitt doesn't like it. It's a world that she doesn't think her young daughter should be involved in. Sitting for five fucking hours straight. Yeah. With a bunch of like Bohemian red wine drinkers who were like let's all be free. But the family obviously needs the extra money. Evelyn loves doing it. She begs her mother to let her keep doing it. She and she starts making so much money she gets to quit her job at Wanamakers and she becomes the primary breadwinner of the family. So somewhere when all this

starts heating up Mrs. Nesbitt decides she's gonna move to New York. She got a line on some a good job where she might be able to be a seamstress for somebody or dressmaker. And so she leaves the two kids with more family in Philly and goes into New York City. But she doesn't get a job there because she's not as good as she thinks she is in everyone in New York is better than you at everything. We should all just accept that right now. If you're gonna move there prepare to suck for like seven years. So she ends up sending for her children. She moves in June of 1900. She sends for her children in November and they all have to move

into this single room in the back of like a shitty apartment building on 22nd Street in Manhattan. Jesus those places were what are they called tenement houses? Yeah I don't know where 22nd Street is. I'm sure we'll hear about it. But you know it sounded shitty and turn of the century again. So but but all the all the artist friends that Evelyn made modeling and she had a good reputation from Philly had already given her name to a really popular New York City artist named James Carroll Beckwith Beckworth sorry and James Beckworth's patron was John Jacob Astor. Okay. And the Astor family was like the Vanderbilt and all

those the Tiffany's all those super rich motherfuckers they called them the 400 at the turn of the century and they were like it's like great Gatsby style where they had they were they were oil barons coal barons railroad barons they had more money than God they had everything yeah and so she gets hooked up in like that real kind of the basically patron artist scene so everyone's a little bit more I guess better at art hi row yeah classy there's less spitting on the floor though it's fucking red wine shit is more expensive yeah there's actually coasters on the tables now sure so Beckworth takes Evelyn under his wing

and he starts getting her a ton of work and she starts to become one of the more popular models in New York City she's making it there now she can make it anywhere then she gets photographed by two of the most well-known photographers of the day Audis Serone or Serenie and Rudolph Echemire photos and because they can this is the change where it used to be that all those print ads people would draw a picture of a lady yeah drinking liquid cocaine and being like cocaine it'll solve all your teeth problems and it'd be like delicious but that would just be a drawing that that they would pay an artist to render

from I that's so weird to think that they needed a fuck on actual model to do that every time yeah because but remember those like and I'm thinking of this is like we in the 70s a lot of people had like this churn of the century wall paper in my bathrooms that was like advertisements yeah so it'd be like I'm sorry advertisements oh I an advertisement from New York City oh but it was like the ladies with their hair yeah drinking something or wearing a corset or whatever so they were kind of really realistic yeah drawing yeah but then photographs started being like mass-produced and they could they could

replicate the photographs and that's right when Evelyn like basically hit the thing so she basically became supermodel it girl like before she was the first wow so she modeled for Vanity Fair she models for Harper's Bazaar she models for the ladies home journal she models for Cosmopolitan she does ads for toothpaste hand creams she's on sheet music she's like you know the drawing on the front of music she's on beer trays which are like you know those damn shit that's my dream to be on a beer tray she's on tobacco cards have to look that up later don't really Stephen Lee you tell us what a tobacco card is when you

get a chance maybe it's a little like a baseball card but it comes in your loose tobacco or something oh yeah sexy lady yeah she's on pocket mirrors and postcards and she's the picture on the top of the Whitman sampler box wow which is super famous candy girl is killing it yeah she can't so she made twice what other models of her day made so she really was so when she's 16 so she's still early teens she does she does all that she's like everybody thinks she's the most beautiful woman and you'll you can look her up but I keep thinking I kept trying to put my finger on who she looked like she really doesn't look like

like I was trying to cast her like I like to do and she doesn't look like anybody but she reminded me of that kind of weird beauty that Winona Ryder had as a girl where you're like oh my god all your features are just so perfect and kind of big yeah and you can just tell she's going to be insanely gorgeous yeah she has Evelyn has the same kind of face but almost like a little bit more patrician a little bit more refined so she can look in one picture she can look really really young and then there'll be another picture where she's like almost naked and she looks really seductive and she looks like like like like she's in

her 20s so she's the girls got range Steven Steven Steven Steven so tobacco cards are live on the scene in Milwaukee has cigarette cards or trade cards basically issued by met tobacco manufacturers to stiffen cigarette packaging and advertise so they had like baseball players beauties boxers and then in 2007 there was a card sold for two million three hundred and fifty thousand dollars who was on it it featured a Honus Wagner one of the great names in U.S. baseball she got all the Honus God he's gorgeous he's got the Honus Honus was so much more beautiful than Evelyn she always hated him okay

it's like it's like Marlboro Miles Joe camel bugs yes so filthy okay so she of course because she's a teenager that's a model she wants to go into acting so she this is when she officially changes her name to Evelyn and she's like sorry mom you don't exist anymore mom's like this isn't a problem for us at all right so she gets cast as a chorus girl in the most popular play on Broadway it's called the Florida aura but she's so beautiful as a chorus girl she's upstaging the leads of this play stop it hey she's just radiant Evelyn she must have been vegan she must have been drinking cocaine she must have been

loving that tooth cocaine so a man named Stanford white he goes to see the show 40 times Jesus and calm down did obsessed with Evelyn and he's the quite the expert on chorus girls great Stanford white he's the most popular and prominent architect and designer in New York City at the turn of the century he designed now Phoebe our our hero Phoebe judge says that he designed the original Madison Square Garden well but then I read on Wikipedia he designed the second version of Madison Square Garden because there was like one and they built not you're gonna believe Phoebe judge are you really wick of

fucking Peter fucking yeah I don't I I love them both so much I don't know who to choose but both done so much for us yeah but here's here's what I will say at this time the Madison Square Garden that was there that this guy built whether it was the first whether it was the 30th yeah who cares he's the one that put up the big screens in Madison Square Garden there was a tower on this matters this iteration of the Madison Square Garden there was a tower and on top of the tower it kind of looked like a bell tower at a church and the top of this tower there was an 8-foot statue of Diana and she was she's like doing some

archery she's got a bow and arrow and there's a long beautiful long like it looks like a piece of material that's just kind of flowing out behind her but other than that she's totally naked and there are people that were real fired up about that not being there and not being able to be seen wait oh they didn't want it they didn't want a naked lady to be up on the top of Madison Square Garden down everyone they were so pissed about it mm-hmm that the because this is around the time so and this is straight from criminal in the Civil War there was so much pornography left over from the Civil War oh that all those soldiers

were like can you please send me some boobs please yeah this is the worst situation yeah and I need to look at some ladies parts there was so much of it that it like littered the streets after this Civil War like Las Vegas so they did in 1873 they passed something called the Comstock Act which prohibited obscene material from being sent through the mail so people couldn't have that anymore yeah but artists got around and like basically they basically just made everybody like a Greek it's not pornography it's art it's Diana it's lady Diana yeah exactly so the and and you know when you see this statue it's

gorgeous I mean and it's in some museum somewhere so you can see it but it really is beautiful but there was there was this after the Comstock Act there was this kind of like push in Manhattan to like clean up the city of vice and so one point they had that statue of Diana covered like so that she was wearing this big this big was it a night sure thing yes it was it was it was pajama bottoms with Christmas trees on them they took the bone era out of her hand and put a DVD in it so basically they at this at the time this was they called it the Gilded Age and that Mark Twain it's a quote from Mark Twain because he

said and this is you know this is along those great Gatsby lines but like Mark Twain called it the Gilded Age because he said this on the surface it was shimmery and shiny and it was absolutely rotten underneath yeah so there's a lot of like you know the richness and the beauty and you think of everybody is like Gibson Girls riding their bikes and everything's really proper and high necked and whatever and shit but there was some filthy shit going on so back to Stanford White he he designed Madison Square Garden in this iteration only the one I'm talking about he also he designed the arch in Washington Square Park

which they had put up for Washington's this hundred centennial of his inauguration and everyone loved it so much they left it there I've seen it it's him that's that's our boy Stanford what's up dude he he's good he also he designed mansions for the Vanderbilt and the Astros the 400 there's a really great Instagram account called mansions of the Gilded Age Gilded Age yes a lot of the fucking houses that they show in this guy whoever it is this guy or girl like knows so much about them and it's yeah there's a lot of those you know what's really cool there's also a there's a documentary called the cruise

and it's about Timothy Speedlevich who is this amazing gray line bus tour guide and he walks oh yeah it's such an amazing documentary if you haven't seen it please please find it I've seen it's great it's amazing and basically it's like I don't know anything about architecture I get very scared when people start talking about things like that because immediately the voice in my head goes you didn't go to college you don't know what you don't have any appreciation for this and you can't I'm the opposite where I I know I can just go that's fucking beautiful or I think that looks stupid that's all you really need to say it's

true but like I always think well I should know why something's beautiful or how it's making that and if you watch that documentary called the cruise it's a person who loves architecture and the city so much that he can explain everything and he talks about like they used certain stone so that when like the noonday sun would come down those corridor streets with because highrises were such a new thing in New York City they would make they would pick rocks that would make the light like glee glee and glisten like you would people would stand there it's just amazing so this guy was obviously a big part of that sure

and you can look he he also may he built a lot of clubs because he was like so they said he had like at least 60 projects going at all times 6-0 fucked up pass for real I want to nap so so he had his hand in like cuz he also designed he didn't just build the mansions for the millionaires and billionaires but then he would do the interior design he had all these like big concept things that he would do for people it's really cool that's a whole like separate podcast I'm sure there's someone that's done it really well but he also built all these clubs because the rich at the turn of the century it was all about like

the different clubs you belong to so it was like clubs where you could like talk about being rich and shit that's right smoke cigars and then hire children there was the metropolitan club the colony club the harmony club the union club just so many places where white men could be themselves and finally relax finally and just be rich in a room with other rich men he did and so he was the architect for all these buildings he was also known for having lots of relationships with young chorus girls because he loved to party so he could party with anyone he partied with super rich people obviously they adored him

but also he was an artist truly at heart so he also hung out with bohemians and artist types so he could kind of party with anybody he was adored across the city and he is the person if you've ever heard people make the joke of saying would you like to come up and see my etchings oh I've never heard that it's like a joke is a strong descriptor but basically that is a thing like people it's a joking pickup line of like would you like to come see my etchings that's actually attributed to see I for white because he would really say that to these young girls calm down did it right so keep your etchings in your pants

so essentially he goes he sees Evelyn as the chorus girl and he asks another chorus girl her name is Edda Goodrich he says basically get her get Evelyn and bring her to my apartment on West 24th Street that was built over the original FAO Schwartz toy store and this was one of his many apartments around the city he called them his snuggles where he would meet chorus girls and have fun sexy romps all day and night so the two of them show up and Edna pulls Evelyn through this side door and they go up and it's this amazing room and it's got all the exterior light is blocked out by big old red velvet curtains and there's

a table set for lunch for them and they drink champagne and then after they hang out for a little bit and chit chat and Evelyn when she first sees him thinks he's horrifying she he's super old and like super creepy he's got red hair and a humongous mustache and she's just like no thanks but they have some fun and then he goes oh I have to show you this other room and they go up two floors into this room that's that basically has a red velvet swing hanging from the high ceiling and he asks Evelyn to get on the swing and then Edna holds a parasol up on the landing or whatever she's up near the ceiling and

Evelyn is supposed to swing on the swing high enough so she can kick the parasol and kick through it doesn't sound safe well and also it's just so he can purve out and look up her dress because that it's just him watching a younger like swing and kick and whatever but it's all like underpants sure it's an underpants undergarments then I think right it's underpants it's underpants show and I don't like it she thinks it's just an innocent game that she's having good times with an old guy so then Sanford white wait Sanford white starts kissing up to Mrs. Nesbitt and basically is like I'm going to be I'm

gonna take care of this family here's some money we're moving you into into a nicer apartment he ships the little brother off to a really high-end military academy and takes care of his education and he tells Mrs. Nesbitt she should go visit her family and Philly she should take a break from work go visit family and while she's gone he'll take care of Evelyn goodbye right Mrs. Nesbitt's like thank you so much I've been waiting for years to get away from my children again can't wait to once again bail on my children so the next day Stanford white tells Evelyn that they're gonna have a fun day of modeling for a

photographer but they are he's got a bare-skinned rug you can see these pictures and this is in the YouTube video that I watched of the woman Paula who wrote American Eve and she has these amazing pictures he has a like a polar bare-skinned rug it's a white bear with the head and it's a really it turned out it became a really famous postcard of Evelyn in a kimono asleep on this rug passed out well yeah drugged it's essentially I mean she's out like a light and it's just basically a picture of a girl sleeping on a bare-skinned rug yeah it's like the original Annie those photos from the 90s and with the babies

in the back of the baby with a piece of cabbage on top of it come on no I know exactly if I get it Annie everyone's screaming at home and Gettys all I can think is little orphan Annie with the big white eyes with no pupils and I'm like it's not her I just want to say that Steven didn't think of that himself he had his phone I looked it up yeah I don't want to give it he doesn't get any credit for remembering no credit for and Gettys or those Weimariners that had human hands oh no remember that when they were like eating spaghetti I loved those videos so good okay so family's gone right he says oh

I already read that she's sleeping that postcard becomes crazy postcard so he and he then invites her back to a party he says I'm having a party tomorrow night at my apartment at the top of Madison Square Tower so underneath that statue of Diana there was like a little like penthouse apartment that he had built into that building that was his so he's like come to my party everyone's gonna be there so she shows up there's no one there and he says oh isn't it sad that everyone turned us down so now he's red flag red flag times 20 she should be like oh my god I have to really quick go tell the cab driver something yeah

let me look at my watch that's made of what was that stuff that no hold on this might be too early for that shit you mean the stuff that people like I think it's too early for glow in the dark shit that was World War one you're right shit don't try to pull your World War one references into my story okay so he starts pumping her full of champagne okay and then he says I have this room I have to show you it's you're gonna think it's amazing once again this fucking guy he brings her into this room that has a mirrored floor mirrored ceiling a mirrored bed no a four-poster bed with mirrors all around it and

Evelyn says in her autobiography that basically she looked at all of that and that's the last thing she remembered and she woke up naked next to him in that bed the next morning she sees her reflection in the overhead mirror and she screams you know what a creep super creep so essentially from that day forward she becomes Stanford whites mistress no but she is 16 years old he's 48 I think he it's not a it's not a fucking love match in any way and they they said in that episode of criminally said at the time the only way to prove rape was if there was evidence that you fought back that was the only way and

then after after basically this era in time that's when they put in the statute statutory rape laws but you know before then it was every man for himself every woman for herself right and okay so then he says basically I'm gonna get you connected with even higher classes of artists and that's when he in 1905 Evelyn poses for Charles Dana Gibson and he is the artist who basically invented the Gibson girl and the Gibson girl is basically if you've ever been to the ice cream store at Disneyland the wallpaper is Gibson girls it's the really beautiful woman and he basically drew it was it was at the time like the

ideal modern woman so she was usually like a socialite of some kind she was usually statue-esque healthy-looking riding a bike doing things of the day whatever was popular playing tennis or something and she and yeah basically it was just kind of the representative of like this is the ideal yeah the like what you should strive to be right so he draws Evelyn and he draws her in a portrait that he ends up calling the eternal question and that's because Freud there's a famous quote that Freud said the eternal question is what does a woman want and so it's this really beautiful profile picture of Evelyn and

her hair is partly up but then it's also partly down and only young women wore their hair down and then when you were older married or mature you wore your hair up and so she was kind of like this half and half she looked you not yet a girl but not yet a woman and it is that kind of thing of like what is this modern woman wants because it's because they're changing so quickly it was on the cover of Collier's magazine and basically that it was the picture that Coca-Cola ended up using in their ass I totally can see it in my head yeah you can you've seen you've seen her and so it branded her as the it girl and the

face of the Gilded Age so then she turns 17 and she starts noticing that Stanford White is paying attention to younger chorus girls so she's aged out of his bracket he's three times older than her and she's still like oh no I'm losing my boyfriend because by this point she's kind of in it she basically just is she it's whoever is there yeah kind of like caretaking yeah and if there are millionaires yeah and she's relying on them yeah and she's and relying on them for her career as well totally so she decides since he's seeming to lose interest she decides that she's going to try to make him

jealous so she goes to a party and she meets John Barrymore who eventually become one of the most famous actors from this insanely famous acting family but at the time he was Jack Barrymore he was just a cartoonist and he hadn't like become famous or anything but they hit it off he at this party and she's like oh this will be good because then I'll make him jealous and I'll be good but she also liked him mm-hmm he asked for her number and writes it on she's like it's three because back then it's about a field three five thousand when he writes her number down he writes it on the cuff on his cuff of his shirt

kill and then it's on yeah I know I really like that they have a month-long affair he proposes she turns him down under pressure from Stanford White and her mother so like he comes in and says no you shouldn't get married no but he's also doing her yeah then he basically when they realized that she's started to do stuff like that they arranged to have her sent to an all-girls boarding school in New Jersey that's run by Matilda DeMille who sees sees will be the mill's mother whoa yeah and I'm sure part of the way and it always comes back to liberal Hollywood but at that point I bet you Evelyn was like it'd be

nice to go to school I'm 16 I wonder are you like you want to send me the fucking school now after all I've been through like can you imagine going to hang out with like other girls your age and you're like what am I supposed to fucking talk to these girls about yeah that's right have you guys been in a mirrored room it's really scary okay so before she gets shipped away she is currently in a Broadway play called the Wild Rose and in the front row every single night is a new admirer uh-huh and he is a mysterious man called Mr. Monroe he starts sending Evelyn flowers stockings he one time sends her a piano

she's she sends it all back one time she sent he sent flowers roses with a $50 bill wrapped around the base and the mom kept the $50 bill and then sent the flowers back uh-huh but she basically he in the almost exact same way Stanford White did it he gets another chorus girl to get Evelyn to come to lunch with them and basically says I'm the one that's been sending you all the stuff and I'm this huge fan and he kisses he kisses the hem of her garment and like declares this love and once again it's an old guy he's twice as old as her this time and she's like not into it and it mostly because he is the the eccentric

millionaire Harry K. Thaw so basically Harry K. Thaw is from a I believe it was a coal and railroad baron millionaire family he was from Pittsburgh he was set to inherit a $40 million fortune I thought I thought a millionaire just if you could see the pride in Georgia's face when she thinks of these things I thought I thought I thought get it cuz the father's name is Tom no I got it I mean great job he gets kicked out of Harvard he gets kicked out of law school he does the kind of stuff around town so he's basically the Philadelphia millionaire that's trying to make it in New York City and everyone's like okay

crazy so he rides a horse's a horse up onto the steps of the Union Club he's lighting his cigars with $100 it sounds like a douche yeah he's douching it up and Stanford whites like no so Stanford white won't let him in any club good there's like a dirt kind of a direct link of like Stanford whites on the way inside the New York society and this guy's trying to get in and everyone's like anything about crazy guy from Pittsburgh he's a huge nerd Evelyn still goes away to boarding school oh sorry this is key I'm catching up on my own page I really love the thing of using a hundred dollar bill to light your cigar

in that at the turn of the century would be like using a $25,000 bill now it's so much money it's I hate him it's very wasteful sir he also funded a vice sweep of Manhattan it and he basically was he was obsessed with virginity and obsessed with like chastity and Rudy Giuliani's fucking great grandfather or something we can trace them back and he was basically paid for the the coalition that ended up getting that Diana statue covered it was his crazy money behind me while he's sending a fucking 17-year-old pianos and shit well okay and and then some and then because get ready I'm ready give it to me so she

just thinks he's creepy and weird and she goes off to the old girls school in New Jersey and then she gets what is reported to be appendicitis and when Mrs. Nesbitt finds out she can't get ahold of Stanford white he's not around to help out so she calls Harry Thaw and Harry thought immediately sends like the best doctors to that school the word the the story is that she was given the appendicitis like in a classroom on a desk but then there's rumors and innuendo that it was not appendicitis it was an abortion yet from her affair with Jack Barrymore but both Evelyn and Jack Barrymore absolutely denied that that

was true of course they did so either way yeah Harry thought comes out as this white knight and he saved the day and Mrs. Nesbitt thinks he's great so he convinces her that that he should that she should allow him to take the family on like a healing European vacation and she's like that sounds great we barely know you let's do this thing but instead of the rest and relaxation that he promised on this trip he packs the itinerary and he absolutely just exhausts Mrs. Nesbitt so she's like I'm 30 I'm too old to do this stuff right my lungs are filled with cold dust so basically they all there's constant

fighting and problems between Evelyn and her mother on this trip and they end up she Mrs. Nesbitt ends up staying in England and Harry takes Evelyn to Paris so but basically was intentional on his part when they're in Paris he proposes to Evelyn and and of course she's not into him he's clearly kind of like crazy crazy real overtly crazy but he's also like super rich and she grew up you know around like hearing his name and you know yeah the the Thaw family was huge in Pennsylvania so she knew that she'd also lost a lot of status with Stanford white kind of like not being that into her anymore yeah and she was

worried about getting more work and she was worried about a lot of stuff so she was considering it but he says he can't marry her until she tells him everything about the relationships that that she had with Stanford white oh and she's like no it's I mean don't worry about it and he's like crying and harassing her through the night till she finally tells the story of what happened to her in the mirrored room and he goes fucking bat shit bananas and that's the proof he's been looking for because he's really pinpointed Stanford white as like the downfall of society he's all virginity shit he's all virginity and

crazy and whatever purity all this bullshit yeah so he this is like the information that he's been waiting to hear yeah so then it upon hearing that story he accuses Mrs. Nesbitt of being an unfit parent yeah but then it creates a bigger rift so then she's basically separated from her family yeah the old controlling boyfriend style and then he takes this is insanity he takes Evelyn in Europe to all the sites where virgins were martyred great so sounds like a fun time I mean and at the at the site where Joan of Arc was martyred in the guest book he writes quote she would not have been a virgin if Stanford what and it's

like that it still exists I guess I mean yeah I think that's a provable thing holy shit in the guest book no less Joan of Arc comes back she's like could you not fucking do that you know what motherfucker I didn't die for this you're the type I was fighting against also how about this pixie cut I love the movie Joan of Arc starring Mila Jovovich because no one that pixie cut no one can wear that pixie cut but Mila Jovovich so good so proud of her so then at their last stop it gets worse always at their last stop at a castle in Austria called Katzenstein Castle there are three staff members and he makes them go

stay at one end of the castle and he holds Evelyn prisoner at the other side cool I'm with you so far he ties her up beats her with a whip and sexually assaults her for two weeks wait where'd this come from I thought we were just being tourists no he is he has some issues with whipping tying up and beating people I'm sorry mr. fucking purity yes this is what I'm talking about there's always when you those people that are like what you need to do this and that it's like really how come sir and that really applies to everything all the time 100% don't be passionate about anything or you seem like a fucking

liar what's my point is a good question to ask every once in a while yeah what am I talking about right so basically horrible she it's exposed to her that he's basically an intense abusive sexual abuser and this is like what sex means to him yeah but then of course on their trip home he's incredibly apologetic and weepy and please forgive me and all this stuff now this is the point where Mrs. Nesbitt gets remarried and is just completely estranged and Evelyn knows there'll be she has nothing to go back to so she's she ends up on April 4th 1905 she Evelyn Nesbitt marries Harry Thaw and he picks out her

wedding dress a black traveling suit with brown trim sounds so fun handsome goth and his mother he was a huge mama's boy and his mother is insanely controlling of his life and of course she did not approve of a chorus girl that was like it you know to those super rich people sorry you're a famous model yeah not good enough you know she actually had a calendar come out around the same time and she's basically nude but she's got like flowers on her shoulder it's very beautiful and tasteful but of course at the time it was insane mother thought tried to go out and buy up all those calendars so no one

would see them yeah or was she really into it just wanted a wallpaper her wall secrets to they move into mother thaws mansion in linter's Pennsylvania great and and Evelyn is now cut off from the outside world mama thaw Harry is his mother's lap dog essentially and Evelyn is just stuck in a mansion essentially sounds way more boring than you think like way like less cool not cool at all because she has no money she doesn't get to control anything she just had to do what they want and haunted probably nightmare but it's super drafty and she's just wearing that black fucking suit oh so also it's awful

because Harry thought is so obsessed with Stanford white that he is like a manic about it he stews about it day and night he rants about him constantly they never leave the mansion for a full year and he's just sitting around planning the Stanford whites demise meanwhile Stanford white has no idea about Harry thought other than he's that asshole that lights cigars with money mm-hmm so a year later on June 25th 1906 Harry tells Evelyn that they're gonna take a luxury cruise to Europe and she's actually excited just to get out of the house and get away from that mother and she's really excited until he

says oh but first we have to go into New York City before we sail we need to go see the opening night of the show Mademoiselle Champagne by Edgar Allen Wolf and it's playing at the rooftop theater Madison Square Garden so Evelyn's freaking out because she knows Stanford white will be there I want to run into my ex I get that exactly it's his place it's his theater he designed all of it he's at all these shows she's freaking out it's the middle of summer and it's really hot Harry thought arrives wearing a big long black overcoat nobody thinks it's weird because he's the weirdo eccentric millionaire Evelyn relaxes

when they get there and she looks around and sees that Stanford white is not there and so they watch the show ten minutes before it ends they hear a little bit of a commotion in the back and Stanford white has entered the room and sits down at his table so Evelyn tells Harry she thinks they should go and he's like you're right we should go they get up they go to walk out and as they pass Stanford white Harry thought pulls out a gun and in front of 900 people he shoots Stanford white twice in the head and once in the shoulder and kills him holy shit and at first people think he yells you ruined my wife but then later

on the people that were nearby said no no no he said you ruined my life so it's not about the wife it's all about him of course so of course immediately Harry thought was arrested Evelyn goes stays at a friend's apartment she is completely in a daze she has no idea what to do she's not going back to that crazy mansion in Pennsylvania and immediately it's a media circus so this is the it girl from four years ago and two millionaires and a murder and of course there's so much dirt to come out about Stanford white because now all the sudden it's all the stories of his snuggeries around town and all the

fourteen-year-old course girls that are like yeah I know that dude he sent me a piano too well that was I bet there's already did it was what I'm sure he's done that before yeah they used to back then sending pianos was like a text did you get a piano from him oh my god he sent me a piano do not write back to that piano girl so there's no articles coming out that say was Harry thought justified because yeah Stanford whites terrible behavior and Harry of course himself thinks he's gonna get let off because he did the world of service by killing way right a week after the murder there's a film called rooftop

murder by Thomas Edison that's released in a Nickelodeon he just fucking bang that thing out and anybody who like when people constantly ask us about like how do you feel about this new trend in true crime and why everyone's interested in true crime right now and it's like no this has been going on yeah fucking Thomas Edison and before yeah that's this is Joan of Arc people are into it then I don't know there are people standing around gossiping yeah look at her kill my god that hair okay so one of the quotes from the book American Heath I was telling you about is from a tenderloin cab driver who was when a

reporter asked him if he was like surprised by this murder he said he I was surprised it was a husband who shot him I always thought it was going to be a father yeah that's how much people knew that Stanford white was into like young young girls tenderloin cab driver yeah handsome driver isn't that they called him then handsome cab yeah I think this might have been a little bit later oh shit but I don't know it's just the 1960s oh I thought it was gonna it's Robert De Niro as but then he's like giddy up yeah giddy up frosty Harry thought this is amazing there are pictures of Harry thought in

jail he had he called reporters in to take pictures of him with his butler bringing him food from Del Monaco's he had a little brass bed put into his jail cell so there's this picture of him sitting next to a brass bed with all these nice clothes folded over it and he's eating what looks like it's a room service tray is any aspect yes he's having some nice ass nails and aspect mm-hmm and a cling peach for dessert but it's the lawyers are like could you not do that cuz he's like oh I think it'll stir up sympathy them seeing me trying to live my life in the jail cell oh honey they're like don't do that

anymore yeah they he gets his doctor to convince authorities that he needs to drink one bottle of champagne a day I me I me too same Dr. Wilson okay so the defense tells Evelyn that she has to play the grieving we grieving widow on the on the stand and testify about what Stanford White did to her to justify what Harry that Harry murdered him and save him from the electric chair and it's rumored that she was paid somewhere between twenty five and a hundred thousand dollars to do that Jesus she gets on the stand she talks about the red velvet swing and it blows America's mind people are freaking out like

there's nothing this salacious has ever been in the newspaper and Stanford White the victim now gets drugged through the mud because of all this shit and the thaw family paid that basically to have all this dirty laundry come out so they were handing out money left right and center they also tell Mrs. Nesbitt that they will convict her for prostituting her daughter unless she testifies for Henry a hairy thought dude and but then Evelyn's brother comes back into the scene Howard and he's like what's up I'm back from military school and I remember me I'm my own person yeah forget about me because he was there to blame Evelyn

for the murder and say that Stanford White was like a father to him and it got Evelyn the daughter or the mother the daughter basically to blame her for her husband killing Stanford White fault and saying I love Stanford White like he was my father so yeah brother because they didn't fucking drug and rape you that's right yeah he was gone he was he was benefiting from all that money benefited up purely just got the shit look this is this guy behavior but it turns into such a circus that this becomes the first jury in America that's sequestered whoa there this for this case they're like shush they're zipping

everybody yeah that judge was like I'm gonna make up a thing yeah you guys love to stay at a hotel what's a good word for it so it's called sequester it's called sequestered the thaw family oh oh so this trial a hairy lawyer Harry's lawyers say that he should plead insanity but Mrs. Mrs. Thaw Mama Thaw says no fucking way there is no mental illness in this family yeah that means there's a hundred mental illness that her son from childhood he was known as mad Harry oh my god he was clearly eccentric what was not an accurate word for him so this trial ends up ending in a hung jury and after that is over the Thaw family has

a movie made called the unwritten law and it shows Harry being found innocent and then freed while angels sing in the background that's because that's what happened because that's just get that get that propaganda basically a documentary at the second trial Harry's acquitted by reason of insanity he sent to an asylum upstate Evelyn's not gonna get any of the money she doesn't get shit cuz mother Thaw is in charge and she blames Evelyn for his downfall Harry files for divorce when he's upstate in the asylum he escapes the asylum he goes to Canada he does what he wants for a while just chills he's eventually brought

back he's and then released and declared sane in 1915 but within a matter of years after that like basically everybody going he's fine now that was just a one-off Harry Thaw is arrested because a young boy is found in a daze after jumping out of Harry Thaw's hotel room window where he was holding that boy against his will and whipping him yes and so then it turns out everyone starts to find out that Harry Thaw used to use the name Mr. Monroe when he was like people's secret admirers because he had this whole scam where he would solicit young actresses to sign up for training courses in New York City and then he

would get them in a room beat them with whips scald them with burning water oh my god but he was a millionaire so nobody ever talked about it nobody gave a shit and they just all like went away like abused and like freaked out so she was like a masochist from day one and like that's what I love it's oh that shit is always underneath those people that are like clean up this city we can't have a statue of a naked lady juliani we're on to you easy I'm sorry allegedly allegedly allegedly we're on to you so after all of this Evelyn goes into vaudeville for a little while she ends up having a some name Russell she claimed that it was

Harry Thaw's son some people argued that she opened to speak easy in the 20s she was an alcoholic she's a morphine addict in the through the 30s she started doing burlesque for a little while and this entire time Harry Thaw surveilled her and watched her until 1926 Evelyn lost her job at the Moulin Rouge cafe and tried to kill herself by drinking disinfectant Harry Thaw came to visit her they reconciled but were never together again Evelyn has but ended up writing two memoirs one was called the story of my life in 1914 and the other was called prodigal days in 1934 then this is kind of cool she has kind of a

rebirth because during World War two she taught ceramics in Los Angeles so I think she started she moved to the West Coast and kind of started over like a hippie yeah and she was paid $10,000 as the technical director for a movie that they made in the 50s called the girl in the red velvet swing starring Joan Collins whoa yeah so there was kind of this like a fictionalized movie I believe about her life yeah that they that she got she was paid for Harry Thaw died in 1947 he left Evelyn $10,000 from his estimated one million dollars thanks bro thanks good of you Evelyn died in Santa Monica a Santa

Monica nursing home on January 17th 1967 at the age of 82 but she was so cool as an old lady yeah so anyway that's the unbelievable story of Evelyn Nesbitt the it girl of the gilded age Karen that was fucking excellent thank you thank you and over to you we're back my co-host don't forget we have Stephen Mann in the street if we need him for an over in Memphis yes you know walking the streets of Memphis live from Memphis yeah walking the streets all right whoo okay here's another long one you and I picked okay good we went long this week yeah and we're going to now start your road trip now okay this is truly one of my

favorite ones I've ever done okay yeah like truly one of my favorite murders I've ever researched did you know when you started or it as you went through okay so I've known about this one for a while it's an old old episode it was a just a fucking five-minute thing on unsolved mysteries originally season one like original so it's always been in the back of my mind of like this thing that happened what a weird curious thing and it's been a bookmark on my history like you know I have the like murders to do bookmark and it's just always been one but I know it's a deep fucking dive and it gets bigger and bigger the more you

dive if for example true crime garage did a four four fucking episodes like four parts shit of this like an hour long hydrocrime garage hydrocrime garage it's funny so it's like a big one that's crazy so I did my best to like get as much as I could in there it also like my as I love it's a cold case and it goes to the fucking top you know what I mean yes so this is the boys on the tracks oh shit yes you know yep I mean I know but I don't do it you don't I didn't know no but if I had known I might not have tried to do this it's so hard it's here's what I know pretty much only what was on unsolved mysteries and here's the thing

when they did the unsolved mysteries they didn't know shit either right the episode ends with them going they thought they saw a guy in camo like walking around town that night that's it yeah no this goes to the fa king top buckle in everybody buckle the fuck up motherfuckers okay let's start chronologically let's just like start with the basics that we know okay and then we'll get into the conspiracy shit okay so on August 22nd 1987 two teenage friends 16 year old Don Henry and 17 year old Kevin Ives they're from Bryant Arkansas which is a little suburb right outside of Little Rock it's a small town they're spending

the weekend hanging out together they've been friends for a little while they're like you know normal teenage kids popular boys are about to go into their senior year of high school they are totally normal like 1980s looking kids they look like they'd be in heavy metal parking lot sure you know they mean like those hair parted up the middle yeah like kind of feathered out a little bit like maybe a little duck tail just a tiny bit I think late 80s that that was starting to get yeah you you were either going to be metal or new wave right oh they were not going to be new wave at all like these were going to be kids that

were going like they had their muscle cars that they loved they were gonna be just like normal family men at some day sure and we'll put a photo of them up with the post I mean they're like cute kids right like cute teenage boys so let's see it's end of the summer they're starting their senior year it's the Saturday they're hanging out with some friends at the local fucking you know druggy parking lot sure as you do in a small town exactly yeah they the boys go back to Don's house around midnight for their curfew check-in they were spending the night at Don's Don's dad Curtis checked in with them and then he

was and then the kids the boys were like we can we go out and go do some hunting in the woods which is like their normal thing they grew up doing that Don was like great go for it see you later so the boys were going to do a thing of a kind of hunting called spotlighting which as someone from the suburbs I don't know what the fuck that is basically it's an illegal form of hunting where you shine the flashlight into your praise eyes just to stop them and then shoot them I guess it's illegal but I heard that like with like sweet baby raccoons it's not illegal don't please don't shoot raccoons okay that'd be horrible to

shoot a raccoon raccoons are like actually really evil in some places right yeah but still they're they're like little people in costumes they like they use their hands like people just shoot a fucking they look like cats like yeah and they're up to something like let them have their plan everyone run one ran in front of your car the other day when we were driving we're leaving my fucking parking garage Karen was driving me somewhere and one just like like didn't like whoa and like Karen like a cat fucking slammed on the brakes I am a graduate of the Bob Bondurant School of Driving that's why there you go none

that's a lie but my friend Andy Packard I don't know what that is I know it's it's a reference that only like 10 people in northern California would don and fucking Kevin would have known they would know for some reason I think how richer housewives to do something went to the Bob Bondurant School of Driving it was like escape driving and stuff like that that sounds amazing it's I think I'm already like I'm not just a member I'm the owner yeah Judy Packard my friend Andy's mom who was the coolest and nicest mom had a sticker for the Bob Bondurant School of Driving on the back of her 280zx and that's why I always

thought about it I'm on board okay so they go out around 12 30 in the morning to go do this thing they have the flashlight and Don's prize 22 rifle shotgun I don't know and they head out into the familiar woods that they fucking grew up like going through yeah so alright boom there that is cut to the following morning it's so it's now August 23rd 1987 at about 4 25 in the morning oh no uh-huh a 75 car 6000 ton cargo train is on its regular night run from Texarkana where you that crazy killer yes to Little Rock so it's the a servant girl and I later no I remember the guy who might be a killer the guy

who is the city was afraid to go to sleep yeah and it was yes it might be the zodiac right so that's Texarkana okay so they're going from Texarkana to Little Rock where Ted Cruz is from sorry Billy Billy how dare you well this does go to the top so maybe he's involved okay the train is over a mile long it's traveling at speeds around 50 miles per hour the train it starts to approach Bryant to like go through the little town there and engineer Stephen Shroyer notices something on the tracks ahead as do the a couple other workers on the train and oh my god this guy gets this Steven guy gets interviewed in the original episode

of and he's just like breaks your heart he's just like salt to the earth good guy and and it's completely ripped him apart yeah I mean yeah so at first they think what they see on the tracks laying on the tracks is an animal but in what but they notice in horror than an actuality they see two teenage boys or like young boys they think laying motionless on the tracks they're laying parallel with their heads on one rail their body across the tracks and their feet towards the other rail so like across the tracks like a robber would do yeah and they know that the boys lower bodies appear to be covered by a light

green tarp and that beside them was the rifle also parallel laying on the tracks so this dude Steven Shroyer who's like a fucking veteran train dude he frantically blows the loud diesel horn as he pulls the emergency brake even though he knows there's not enough time for the train to stop he's hoping that they'll move but the train dudes feel the impact as the train hits and proceeds to run over the bodies of the boys on the tracks which the horror you know it's like sometimes I think about the people who like commit suicide by parking on the track and you just don't think about the people who are on the train who you are going to scar

for the rest of your life that's not that this well no it's not the same but but also that idea that you would know it's almost like if they hadn't looked then it they would have hit and then it wouldn't have been as traumatizing right but to know it to try to prevent it see it happening to yeah but it's horrible it doesn't matter how you slice it it's horrible well it is you know you're right the police are assume radius of police from the train and when the dispatcher says have you gotten the injuries Stephen Shroyer says no we've got death which I think is the most chilling thing I've ever heard so once

the train comes to a stop the crew they exit to view the carnage just to see what the fucks going on they had had experience hitting animals in their years as train dudes none of them had ever hit a human but they knew to expect a lot of gore but they were surprised by what they found so they were also avid hunters as well as having hit animals before on the tracks and they all knew that fresh kill had bright red free-flowing blood mm-hmm the blood from the boys was purple in color it was thick and oozing indicating with the boys had already been dead for some time before the train had hit them mm-hmm by

440 a.m. the local and state police had arrived at the scene and they began investigating as the train dudes explained to Celine County Sheriff's deputies on the scene about the curious lack of blood present meaning to them that the boys had already been dead and add to that the observation of the train dudes and this part's fucking crazy as they had approached the bodies on the tracks in the speeding train blowing the horn like fucking mad that fucking rails are shaking the train coming towards them neither of the boys on the tracks flinched or moved a muscle something that one would think would be

human nature when a speeding train is coming towards you even if you intend to get run over yes like if you're laying there to kill yourself you're still going to you know roll into a ball or do something right and even say maybe one of the theories is like oh they got super drunk or fucked up and passed out hold the fuck up but I mean wouldn't the speeding train wake you up even if like even if you were super drunk but yeah 100% they were like they didn't even flinch right so but the scene was immediately treated as a suicide or traffic accident scene by the sheriff despite the info pointing to foul play

this means that the scene wasn't properly secured evidence wasn't properly collected in fact the the next train that was like waiting to come they fucking let them gum through the scene through the crime scene on suede its next destination they were like go ahead go through yeah and even the paramedics were skeptical of the handling of the scene as an accident and they actually attached a note on their report noting that the condition of the boys body when they found them suggested that they had been dead long before they were stuck by the train so they were like fuck this shit and put a little like really check

this shit out yeah oh good so let's cut back to Don and Kevin when they hadn't come home that morning Don's father Curtis began to worry and notified Kevin's mother Linda Ives eventually that morning Curtis hears a rumor from a neighbor so there's this rumor already going around town that two teenage boys have been shot and tied to the railroad tracks that's the rumor going around oh and it wasn't long before the police show up and and the clothes the boys had left the night before in where I did as the ones that Don and Kevin had been wearing and that the boys on the tracks had been wearing thus confirming the

deaths of Don Henry and Kevin Ives mm-hmm which is so fucking awful so shortly after the medical report was released by the state medical examiner this fucking dickhead named dr. Fami Malik he's an Egyptian-born physician and he rules the deaths an accident in his report he states that at the time of the accident the boys were quote unconscious and in a deep sleep on the railroad tracks no under psychedelic influence of THC marijuana when a train passed over them causing their accidental death no he explained that the boys had smoked the equivalent of 20 marijuana cigarettes impossible they

ever passed out from cigarette from marijuana and have your smoked 20 joints well and also in what that was like four five hours for yeah maybe four hours or so like yeah so I mean even fucking 10 hours five joints now yeah yeah but but still it back to my thing of even if you were stoned to the bone and like couldn't move yeah you're flinching if a speeding train is coming yeah you don't you don't go into a comalic state on pot especially fucking 1980s Arkansas swag it was fucking oregano stems and seeds and maybe a teeny tiny bit of swag that's it so it's so frustrating it's like anytime we talk about crimes

that happened before 1995 it's like we're talking about it's the turn of the century it's nuts it's nuts it gets nutser okay okay the families of Don and Kevin are like normal fucking people so like you've got to be fucking kidding me dude what the fuck so knowing that the boys they weren't big pot smokers they weren't bad kids although a dime bag was found in one of the pockets of the boys clothes but after their return to the parents which means they didn't really check the pockets at all so like the boys maybe bought a little bit of pot and smoked some pot but they weren't fucking drunk you know dealers or anything

hey listen Bill Clinton smoke pot he didn't inhale but eats he was around it wait that's foreshadowing what really yeah oh shit dude you give me the chills just now okay okay I was psychic so so the friends who had been in the fucking parking lot with them earlier said that they had enough pot for maybe a joint or two like a fucking dime bag but the parents were like there's no fucking way they would have fallen asleep on the tracks and not heard the train coming like everyone who's listening to this right now is saying right okay plus weird things sort of popping up that made the families lose

faith in the aptitude of Dr. Malik this dude sucks first of all of course the town goes nuts like over this thing and wants to be lucky lose goes down to the train tracks to look around for shit like normal people and a family member of one of the boys finds on the tracks a shoe with a foot in it no from one of the boys no like two or three days after the accident and the fucking autopsy had already been fucking like done and nope and he didn't mention that there's a goddamn foot missing what the fuck exactly the autopsy that's okay so they also told the crew they told the train crew who has no stake in this whatsoever

they're just telling it as they see it the cops tell the crew that that although they had said they observed a green tarp over the lower half of the boys bodies right before running them over the tarp must have been an optical illusion because it didn't exist oh guys that's not the option you have to look for it or you can't just hide it because it belongs to someone you know yeah or it says like the name of whoever my mind that's the first thing the first thing is conspiracy conspiracy what what's hidden in those woods those boys but is it a conspiracy okay okay it's that thing of like you've got if you're being

paranoid make sure no one's following that person first kind of a thing yeah you know you know that old saying you know that what I love that I watch on ancient aliens all the time and like a bunch of other shit that I don't have four episodes to tell you like true crime garage I'm going to listen to true crime garage do it too good because there's nothing better than the details and like suit the super mysteries and there's a I have a bunch of references to tell you about to watch to okay cool to listen to read too okay so for five months Kevin and Dawn's parents who are fucking bad asses and not letting like

not letting this shit go they're normal fucking working-class people and they're like up against the fucking government yeah but they do not let this go they try unsuccessfully to get the case re-investigated and nobody will listen to them so fed the fuck up they go to the goddamn fucking media because they're like you know who's gonna listen to us when we yell at you over the media the very smart that's right the plan works cuz the next day after they do this like press conference calling everyone out of their bullshit the case is officially reopened finally and prosecutor Richard Garrett had the boys he's assigned to

the case he has the boys botics exhumed for another autopsy this leads to a creation of the grand jury that was led by an attorney named none other than Dan Harman of Rick and Morty fame no what is that was his first career no it is his name is Dan Harman California to get away from all that his name is Dan Harman which is confused is weird but it's true so that's got to be weird when you Google Dan Harman and you're like wait what wait so he's a friend of the prosecutor rich Richard Garrett had been in the mix with the family from the very beginning he see he was an advocate for the boys families he was like what can I

do for you free of charge he volunteered to them before requesting that the judge who's presiding over the grand jury appoint him special prosecutor to supervise the investigation over the deaths because he's like I want this to be fucking seldom in on this yeah let's do this so a new outside pathologist who's like Dr. Malick is kind of stupid concludes that the boys on the record huh it's a quote a direct quote says that the boys had only smoked between one and three marijuana cigarettes after doing the tests they found that Don Henry's shirt had tears on the back of it that were consistent with a sharp

object like a knife not like how it's so amazing how good these people are with their job that they can make this is a rip and this is a fucking like direct stab wound like they can tell so they find that in his shirt and on his body they match up so like if he had been if it had been from the train like his shirt would have been pulled up but it matched you know what I mean yes it was matching of a knife going in right yeah beforehand and like the blood matched someone being alive not someone being dead beforehand so and injuries and bruises on Kevin's face were consistent with a hit from the butt of a rifle or

another blunt object so this is fucking pre-mortem right so in grand jury testimony the lead pathologist said that the boys quote were either incapacitated knocked unconscious possibly even killed their bodies placed on the tracks and the train overran their bodies so in 1988 the grand jury reversed the ruling of accidental death and ruled the deaths to be probable homicides okay great awesome movement for one here we go but even then dr. Malik has said that he said that he didn't believe anybody quote laid a finger on those boys like he refused to believe it he wouldn't give over a bunch of like evidence he wouldn't

give over shit he was just like fighting it tooth and nail now here's the thing and this is a time where you know this is when doctors made a shit ton of money and they were like the end all be all of knowledge of all knowledge sure and and part of that it's like Alec Baldwin in that movie where he's like I'm not at playing God I am God where they really that's part of it dirty rock yeah love that movie but I think now the part of the advancements I think of like criminology I guess to be this dumb and broad that sounds correct it's just essentially people going I don't know but I'm trying to put the story together

yeah not that you have to come in and be the final word expert because that's just a setup to be wrong where people saying I want a second opinion and the doctor not being like fuck you right it's just like no you should get a second opinion because what we should want here is the truth yeah solution not me to win some game that that's not it really would happen and Dr. Malik was like a hundred percent on board let me tell you some more information okay okay this is where we get into the like here are the facts let's get into the fucking deep dive mother this is the beginning of it so his controversial ruling alright so

this thing about Malik is he had this controversial ruling in the case of a patient's death so there's this patient who died in a hospital and the woman who was facing illegal issues was an at the the nurse anesthesia anesthesiologist no an esthetist mm-hmm that's a hard one it is a hard okay she was a woman named Virginia Kelly and he helped her in the in the case of a patient's death helped her avoid legal issues while she was already facing negligence and malpractice charges so he helped get her off by like writing these like you know fudging it a little bit a little bit does the name Virginia Kelly sound

familiar Karen angel of death nope oh she is the mother of the man who during the time of this case the grand jury case she's the mother of the fucking governor of Arkansas bill fucking Clinton what wait huh Bill Clinton was accused of malpractice she twice listen I am a fucking liberal as fuck why water you think that I believe a thing a politician says either side oh no no yeah this isn't political this is fucking politician oh I think also if we've learned anything in the past two years is that pretty much anyone involved in the government is crooked a shit a lying

liar who lies we're all being lied to just endless and if you've only learned on the past two years then welcome to the fucking parade thank you I'm glad to finally be here damn I really wanted that to not be Bill Clinton's month I know I know I know I know but also you have more than one malpractice yeah sorry we can't afford it like no the average person I mean okay so there is a I want to really quickly say that there is a book and like you can't get all this you can't get all the deep dives and all of this in any of the like articles and there's like videos and documentaries and shit you have to read the boys on the

tracks by this woman a moral lever it she like gets into all of this shit which I have to read I haven't read it yet but like it's like about the case and like what malpractice suits there were and what happened which I've read about and they're bananas okay all bananas okay great we just don't have time but so Bill fucking Clinton he so this Dr. Malik reversed these fucking charges against Bill Clinton's mom he's the governor of Arkansas okay so maybe that the boys on the tracks was his first Malik's first fuck up right like the first thing that he like ruled incorrectly okay well over his career

his rulings and testimonies became problematic in more than 20 additional deaths no so he's the angel of death he's just postmortem right exactly there are multiple instances showing that Malik testified erroneously in criminal cases that his rulings were reversed by juries and that outside pathologist challenged his findings and my god you need to read about it because it's bananas I'll give you two fucking really great examples okay one case from 1985 a man was found shot dead in his yard Malik ruled the death of suicide but this dude had been shot five times in the chest come on in another case a man

was found dead in his home and Malik attributed his death to an ulcer okay but the dead man had been decapitated okay listen to me no no no hold up and tell you before you listen to me hold up because there's more when Malik was questioned about this before you listen to me Malik said that the man's the man had been sitting in dead in his house for a while and that the dog had chewed through his neck and chewed his head off what and that's how he got decapitated even though it was a clean fucking slice and led to the testimony led to a murder the murder leads suspect going free sir what is your what is your damage

seriously I was gonna say may I ask the eternal 80s question what is your damage are you really gonna ask that yes what the fuck dude a hundred this this immediately makes me think of that blood spatter expert in this staircase we're just like how he got away with that multiple times and it's just worth thinking of like wait he believes himself that's like the that's the scariest thing that someone who like is clearly full of shit or lying or wrong and and believes themselves yes that's the scariest thing yeah it's easy to get carried away with like what knowing things means about you right well the

families tried to like argue like argue with dr. Malik initially of like this how can you think like tried to reason with him dr. Malik got pissed off pulled out the fucking autopsy photos of their children and tried to show the families these photos sir and one of the fucking police officers or how to like be like don't fucking do that dude like it this guy's very problematic okay okay when Governor Bill Clinton was asked to comment about dr. Malik's bullshit he praised dr. Malik's work and stated that the mistakes came from being overworked and underpaid so dr. Malik had clearly fucked up the case of Don and Kevin

which Karen you and I would think would lead to a slap on the wrist or something right well sure I would think yeah but no two months after the grand jury ruling about the probable murder Clinton sent a proposal asking to raise Malik salary by forty one point five percent yeah yeah yeah that's that's pretty unforgivable exactly so here's just a great side note that I thought you would like out of hearing about this pay raise two months later Linda Ives Kevin's mother and other Malik haters formed an organization to like stop this from happening it was called victims of Malik's incredible testimony and the

acronym vomit what's her name Linda Ives hell yes Linda I've vomit vomit how great is that well also just how disgusting this is like to watch somebody not only not help you that it's their job and it's what their duty is there's like their sworn oath yeah is to help you and use their knowledge to protect you and help you and whatever and this person is doing exactly the opposite being terrible at it and then getting a raise for it that's just praised by like the higher up that you would go to to point out the problem because because he's done a favor for that higher right well yeah allegedly

rough allegedly allegedly allegedly who knows okay I know okay all right vote Ross Perot all right okay this has been fun let's leave Malik behind he sucks we hate him but let's dive him into a different fucking well what is it a well sinkhole let's go to a different well like the girl from the the ring yes and come out with a long black wet hair and then wet night count you will and it says I'm fucking married fuck you I'm married all right here we go okay clear had this is a new part okay so there's a police report filed seven months after the deaths of Don and Kevin that that right reads quote

confidential informant states that she has been told that the area the two boys died in is a drop zone for dope all right okay here we go mm-hmm so in the years that surrounded the death of the boys residents near the tiny town of meet the tiny Mina municipal airport in Western Arkansas it's about two hours from Bryant where the boys lived Mina Mena mm-hmm the residents had complained about low-flying aircraft late at night okay here we go it turns out that Mina was a drug-running hub in the 80s and early 90s and was where and this is like this isn't conspiracy this is this is like no yeah like you know everyone yes

that like solid testimony that this is a thing that this dude named Barry Seal who was a cocaine smuggling kingpin operated out of the Mina Airport okay which is like this tiny it was not makes perfect sense though yes because you're not gonna be bringing it into you know yeah he's got these little he's got a little Cessna I don't know is that a thing sure and yeah it's like a little small place you drop the drugs you fucking go back over to tiny town you pay off and people who see stuff and don't like it paid off pay everybody yeah okay exactly so real quick this about Barry Seal which a net like a separate

deep fucking dive into this dude he's amazing amazingly awful fascinating okay so at the point of the boys death he had already been assassinated by Colombians so he's not involved in the murders it was his setup though yeah right so initially he was hired by the DEA to fly a small his small plane over the low over this over Central American countries taking photos of rebels so the DEA was like take photos prove that like this drug smuggling cartel shit's going on but then he became a double agent and began working with a Medellin cartel and smuggling drugs so you go take the photos for the DEA fucking load

his car up with second drugs later days back over the perfect setup perfect setup I think he eventually became a triple agent and like fucking ratted on the cartel sure he did this guy was had no you know no honor none but what a perfect hiding place is right like in the DEA's pocket exactly it's almost like out of sight what was that movie no out of sight with Jennifer Lopez and George Clooney no talk about it one with blow Johnny no yes but it's similar what's that he's uh what's the one from um oh Jesus been risky and what's the other one oh forget edit that out it's terrible but the guessing's fun is it

is this one for anyone um just me what's Casey Affleck's like original partner's name I have to go from the very beginning partner then Affleck's original partner's name Matt Damon right okay so oh you mean that this Scorsese movie where it's the drug the drug yes the DEA agent Leonardo Caprio yes oh it's not Matt Damon yes no Matt Damon's in it too okay and so is Marky Mark Wahlberg what is it the un not the departed oh that's the departed it is the departed I'm thinking of something else I was gonna say the uninhibited I'm not joking some of the best content we've created so far edit

part of it leave it all in it's so glorious edit Casey Affleck out okay leave that in okay please goes to rent the uninhibited at a red red box near you where your pajamas you wear your pajamas the uninhibited is the porn version of the departed okay yes oh my back hurts from laughing did you think Leonardo Caprio was Matt Damon or you were just trying to get there I wouldn't be surprised if I confused the two but I think I was trying to go Matt Damon got it okay whoo that was awesome anyways for extra cash okay but of course the high ups in the government like and it was like the FBI the CIA all the DEA

they all knew about Barry Seal being this you know undercover agent and they also knew secretly that he was a double agent bringing drugs back but they looked the other way for personal gain and they were like well he's doing us some favors it's like the iron contra fucking times yes they needed him every one could do it over the fuck they wanted and actually there's a movie starring and I wrote this down so I won't forget starring Tom Cruise that came out like a year or two ago risky business yes that's secretly about no it's called American made and it's about Barry seals oh did you see that no but I'm fine

and plans there's a cute blonde wife I didn't see that one but there was also a movie that I feel like is similar plot that had Matthew McConaughey and he was the pilot oh sorry that was about gold not drugs there's one that was made in 91 that was like one of the old-timers what like but this is you know before one of the old-timers like a Barrymore John Barrymore we're seeing John Barrymore Lionel Barrymore and his brother John okay so the drugs are brought in from South America to crazy these like hangers at these like small municipal airports and that one of them was the tiny Nina municipal airport but local

authorities who like weren't in on the tape or so didn't like noticing it so they put up like lights and kind of like made it so that it wasn't as easy for them so instead of landing at the airport they started dropping small parcels of drugs across the state and surrounding states from planes like they fucking made their cessnas have fucking doors and shit okay so one of these drop sights was supposedly in a clearing near the tracks where the boys were found mm-hmm so remember the boys went out like fucking hunting and shit spotlighting do you mind if I say one theory that I have so fucking tibley just

based on the information you've told me so far they were out in those woods to do their stun hunting or whatever it's called and there was cops out in those woods trying to find people at the drop-off and they killed those boys accidentally and then tried to set it up themselves incorrect dang it well I just want to throw it up incorrect it gets worse dude and that okay so in the years following the murder of Don and Kevin a few different eyewitnesses start to come forward slowly like in the early 90s and when combined those their stories tell the story of what happened that night okay and the first the person came

board was a kid named Tommy Nighhouse at the time of the murders he's around 12 years old but he's about 19 when he comes forward finally or some 18 I don't know he says that the night of the murders he was with some friends in the woods by the tracks and they spotted from the woods and like some bushes they're hiding and they spot a group of men a couple men on the tracks and they're hiding in the bushes and they witnessed two boys Kevin and Don approaching the men along the tracks carrying their rifles just doing going along doing their fucking thing and when Kevin and Don saw the group of men on the tracks further

ahead of them the boys hesitate and then start to turn around the other way but they're called by one of the men to come towards them and when Kevin and Don hesitated according to Tommy a shot is fired and they don't know if it's from Don's gun or like you know a warning shot something whatever happens Kevin and Don take the fuck off yeah Tommy this kid recognizes one of the men on the tracks because his mom is dating him so he's like a hundred percent sure it's him the man is prosecutor Dan Harmon goes back remember the dude he was in charge of the grand fucking journey and saying I should take care of this uh-huh

saying put me on this case I'm gonna fucking exhume the bodies and and depose these fucking people why it's Dan fucking Harmon what mm-hmm okay after coming forward Tommy passes polygraph tests he's put into protective custody he gives video statements of what he witnessed the night of Kevin and Don's murders meaning he's a fucking reliable witness yeah the boys so then the story goes on that the boys that based on witness testimony ran into their friend named Keith Coney who gave him a lift on his motorcycle to the local grocery store to to a payphone located there so the next part of the story that was observed that

had a witness I was observed by a man named Ronnie Goodwin who told state police that he was driving by when he saw two boys in the parking lot of the grocery store and when and then two two officers showed up and they're unmarked but recognizable that it was a cop car because of the fucking antennas and shit they show up in their cruiser to the boys yeah Ronnie drives past pulls into another lot and witnesses the officers beating the two boys including one of the officers hitting one of the boys with the butt end of a rifle and then throwing them into the back of the cruiser and heading towards a dirt road

that leads to the tracks and this is probably before the grand jury testimony is like the hat happened is available so getting hit in the face with a butt of a fucking rifle isn't something that was like probably well known right and it's incredibly specific and at least as you said that very specific like wound and mark exactly which I'm sure old Ronnie Goodwin like who knows he could have been the principal of the high school he could have been the guy that hangs out sure grocery store parking lot but all the sudden that's somebody that has a true fact yeah that like can lie and

operated exactly which is must be bone-chilling to whoever the 90s cop is that's starting to like listen to these stories Dan Harmon oh you mean the good one not the bad one you whoever right whoever's there it was ever the detective going yeah I'll take I'll take your statement on this old murder well let me tell you about them okay sorry they're all in it's just so crazy okay so eventually and you'll read about it in the boys on the tracks there's three witnesses that eventually come forward to corroborate the grocery store story two of them two of those witnesses are murdered when they were called to testify

about this in the new grand jury hearing there's a new grand jury hearing eventually that comes together and two of these guys are murdered what I'll tell you about it a minute the next witness to come forward is a woman named okay this fucking woman I mean love her forever her name's Charlene Wilson and she's basically like the night like what you would have done in the 80s which is look if you looked fucking hot and you're like I'm gonna date everyone and do drugs and have the most fun of my life oh yes and she's this fucking gal and she's just having a blast she's doing whatever she's fucking around

Charlene Wilson had kind of had a come-to-Jesus moment and she gave secret testimony to the federal investigation including a videotape confession as well as a four-page confession letter signed in front of three local office officials in May 93 so once the sup was overshoot had this like I'm not gonna do this shit anymore be sure so 93 she comes forward with her story so at the time of the boys on the tracks murder is Charlene was dating Dan Harmon and she claimed that she had been on the tracks that night with Harmon and a guy named Keith McCaskill who's a meth dealer and known police informant and a couple of

other people including two fucking local cops for a drug drop so you saying that the cops accidentally shot them no the cops were fucking in on it the cops were there to fucking be muscle for Dan Harmon and this drug drop because and they were there because she told them in the summer of 1987 so like before right before this happened that summer one of the drugs drops disappeared so they think that fucking local kids grab the drugs and fucking ran did it's a bag of coke I mean yeah it's a big duffel bag fills a million dollars so many parties a parking lot at the grocery store exactly so Dan Harmon who's

like on the who's like the fucking kingpin of this is fucking pissed off so he brings out some of his men to watch the delivery on the night that Kevin and fucking Don are walking by oh and they're expecting a delivery of three to four pounds of cocaine and five pounds of weed and Charlene was supposed to make the pick up that night but she had been quote highballing which is a mixture of cocaine and crystal meth girl was totally quote strung out yeah you were mm-hmm that's such a crazy combination that's like when you get a just yeah red eye and you put a shot of espresso into coffee where it's just like don't pick a

lane you don't and she there's an so there's this really great not great it's this great it tells you a lot of documentary called obstruction of justice the mean connection which is on YouTube and you and she's interviewed in it and this fucking she's like she's not in heavy metal parking lot because she's fucking backstage with the band yeah and she probably got clean she probably got sober and then her and she was just like kept telling her sponsor like me I can't sorry go ahead oh you you're on the right track except that's the sliding glass door the sliding door theory oh okay you're right so she's

supposed to make the pick up highballing they told her to wait in the car where they go to the drug like to get pick it up and she didn't tell she saw the little kid Tommy you remember him yes running from the gunshot thing whatever it's a little cloudy okay she gets out of the car she goes over to where the men who had intercepted a group of boys at the drop site which is fucking Tommy and Don and maybe their friend Keith right motorcycle and who maybe got away so according to Charlene some of them had managed to get away maybe Keith but Kevin and Don were captured and when she got there Dan

Harmon's men interrogated them as they were lying on the ground face down hands tied behind their back and they were kicked and beaten and finally executed so Charlene's like this is the story she knows it for a fact yeah shit there's more to like just fucking read it so the group of men led by Dan Harmon then loaded the rest of the drug drop into the car they wrapped Kevin and Don up in a tarp from Wilson's car and put them in the trunk of the car and then they moved the quote they moved up the track a little ways and remove the boys and laid them across the tracks and according to Charlene she says at that

point she freaked out and started running away from the scene she's like I'm on math and coke and you just fucking killed a bunch of people like killed two teenage boys I mean imagine also but just I understand it's just drug use and she probably was like by that point that was just like standard fare for her but if you have to go do something as stressful as is like a drug drop yeah how are you on white drugs anyway and then like of course something horrible happens I mean it's the answer to a lot of things were it was the 80s yes that's right that was the 80s didn't know meth was bad for us back then it was given to

us as a diet pill it was a fun bump just to get you past that midnight era you know oh this is beside this is just me talking shit out of school but she was this chick Charlene was also the ex of a man who had been convicted hit with a convicted drug felon his name was Roger Clinton uh-oh he was the half brother of Bill Clinton oh shit just this just an aside no we heard a lot about Roger Clinton in the Clinton era where he was he was troublemaker yeah they were like don't bring him up yeah where does this go to the all the fucking way the chop okay so okay this is crazy I know Harman Dan Harman so then Dan

Harman then there's this new grand jury that like does convenes to fucking figure it out Dan Harman uses that grand jury to find out what he could about who had informed on him so he's in charge of the grand jury and he's calling all these people and getting all these fucking secret documents to find out about what they knew about him which is not can't see can't be legal no seems unfair and it's to make it a really yeah and make it appear like they were suspects and the purpose was to discredit those witnesses so that if he ever got arrested and charged with drug charges he could say that it was

retaliation for this grand jury trial so he called everyone he'd ever been in fucking bed with to be like no no they're just retaliating against me now when he has this drug trial sure that's in that's in Mara Leveritz book the boys on the tracks okay so we're getting there Rome's done so Keith McCaskill who was the one of the guys on the tracks that night who was like the informant in the meth dealer before the grand jury they called him to speak at the grand jury he gets stabbed to death in his driveway before he can fucking testify Keith Coney the boy on the fucking motorcycle he dies in a mysterious

motorcycle crash crash just a few months after Don and Kevin had died and had he had refused to tell authorities what he knew and saw and he would only tell his father that quote it was the cops who killed Kevin and on so he is on his motorcycle the motorcycle crashes it looks like he's being chased he maybe had his throat slit before he crashed but there was no autopsy what's it called you know requested so we don't know what yeah but the grand the grand jury did rule conclusively this time not probable homicide but definite homicide about Kevin and Dawn's murder eventually Dan Harmon finds out about our fucking

girlfriend's testimony and so in 1992 Dan Harmon sets her up and personally busts her for a small amount of drugs plus weapons charges he fucking set her up yeah he arrests her personally hands her the fucking like cuts her arrest her even though he'd been dating her and like having her as her his drug meal wow he prosecutes the case against her this seems unfair uh-huh it's her first drug offense which usually is fucking probation right he offers her a plea bargain of 116 years she says go fuck yourself she gets sentenced to 31 years in jail I can't tell for sure but I think she's still fucking there no

yeah it's been 31 years it's been like 32 years and so it's been 30 years yeah I don't know where she's I it's hard to find her which I would do the same thing if I were her I would be very hard to find yes for real so when anyone of authority tried to look into the case including this woman this another fucking heroine named Jean Duffy she gets appointed federal narcotics investigator in town she's newly appointed in the 90s she starts down cut she's told like don't hate her like hiring command is like don't look hey just have like welcome to the office like good luck with everything here's a fucking cactus

whatever by the way don't look into any drug charges against anyone in our like circle like anyone in you know our jurisdiction yeah yeah just don't look into just don't do that okay goodbye enjoy your fucking ficus which then anybody yeah and she would be like I'm just guess I'm gonna just look through a couple of these files and she's interviewed in this fucking documentary and she's just like the loveliest 90s haired woman you've ever seen sure so she did so she's newly appointed in the 90s she starts to uncover the cover-up of the boys death Dan Harmon fucking loses his shit and starts to go on the attack and she when

she realizes he's part of it he leads a smear campaign against this lovely fucking woman with 90s hair accusing her of everything from embezzling funds to child abuse and the paper the newspapers and the fucking journalists are like in on it and like anything Dan Harmon says about her they'll fucking print yeah so then he tries to subpoena her to find out everything she had on him including secret informants and she's like you can't do that she starts to fear for her fucking life because she refused to turn shit over which is a which meant she would have gone to prison and she got like a secret

informant was like hey they're gonna kill you in prison that's their fucking plan yeah so she goes into fucking hiding eventually after a long shit she becomes a teacher in Texas which is like yeah dude don't don't and that 90s hair is like it's now it's some weirdly 50s hair exact same but fucking Jean Duffy that poor woman had like a great career as like a fucking honorable person instead I mean that's talk about like there's a podcast I want to listen to yeah is all the people that went in to like yes those kind of positions with noble intentions and got caught up in shit like a hundred percent like people quit

when she because she got fired from her job because she couldn't do her job correctly because Dan Harmon was waging this war against her so like five of her informants like you know not informants but they were like cops who were like on her side yeah they fucking quit so those dudes like would have had these incredible jobs and ladies all right so almost I swear in 1996 Dan Harmon finally gets fucking caught for his shit he's convicted of racketeering conspiracy extortion and drug possession with intent to distribute he gets ten years he's released in nine years and then he got arrested and drug charges

again in 2010 I can't tell I think he's still in prison hmm but like everything turns out he was completely the fucking drug kingpin this whole time wow later in the 2000s and on one of the police officers who was alleged to have been on the tracks that night and beaten and taken to the boys to the tracks this guy named Jay Campbell who had like gotten higher and higher and up he and his wife were arrested on many drug charges and sentenced to decades long terms in jail so like they're all fucking in on this yeah the families of Kevin and Don are still not receiving cooperation from the saline County Sheriff who happens to be

a guy named Rodney Wright who is he he's fucking Dan Harmon's nephew no as recently as 2016 Linda Ives who has not fucking given up the fight has filed suit against multiple government agencies for refusing to answer her freedom of information act requests and for withholding info in regards to the death so she's still fucking on this shit the government's responded to her suit by asking the court to dismiss the suit because it's an on because it's an ongoing investigation and the case is still open to this day she says it's not a political issue with her because they were never a political family but

until the Arkansas political machine reached into their lives and destroyed the twink tranquility that they had as a family yes and that's the fucking boys on the tracks the fucking tip of the iceberg I mean dude but because I have to say when I saw that on I'm sure it was unsolved mysteries where well all that stuff where it's just like the weirdest it's clearly a setup of trying to make it seem like boys committed suicide right when they were dead and it only worked because everyone was in the pocket of everyone else yeah and like when you look at that as a person who reads a lot of true crime or whatever

you're like well one of the options is there's a really bizarre serial killer that yeah to kill people and then confuse people which is like you've never heard yeah like it doesn't line up with any of that yeah completely lines up with cover-up with you know like some people like I don't like conspiracy theories but it's like this is the only fucking thing this like makes more sense than the boys anything this doesn't this is the thing that oh like every little puzzle piece goes and so it's not a fucking conspiracy theory there's proof that all of these people you know they all went to prison later they all were

in each other's pockets Malik got fucking like fired and promoted to something else when Bill Clinton became president like everyone and he did fucking get Bill Clinton's mother out of you know all this legal bullshit yeah and like Dan Harmon did fucking what like is proven that he was like the judge was in on the take the fucking ever it's not a conspiracy well I mean it's it's actually a true conspiracy theory right it's like the cons there are and that's the thing we're starting to learn these days more and more is a lot of conspiracy theorists were right and totally because they were freaked out by it or like yeah

you know weirdo like oh shit like the wormwood like on Netflix it's like yeah they it's actually a known fact that they the CIA gave LSD to people who didn't know about it to see how they would react that's not me being like a fucking weirdo conspiracist right that's that's the truth it's simply the truth yeah well and a lot of people who are like I don't like conspiracy theories or the kind of people who are like I don't know I also don't like the truth right I just want something that's not gonna rock the boat or like freak me out but they can they confuse like aliens with the government doing something nefarious also small

town like we're talking about small town Arkansas yeah so this is you know families relatives everybody who knows people it's all that's all those relationships are that's how a lot of those towns is like I'm the sheriff now you're gonna be the sheriff when I die yeah every we're gonna keep all the secrets exactly where we have them and nobody mess around and like I mean honestly what a great way to like conceal a murder yes you know the trans coming at four fucking 30 and still in the dark how do we hide this you know Dan Harmon was high as he was probably on what is it called this

speedball to oh yeah take it a little too far and they kill the boys what's a great way to fucking hide this it's not it's not like it would have worked if the fucking train conductor had never seen the boys that's right that's what they thought was gonna happen or if the medical examiner had been legit and was like you know know this blood is old there are these wounds like if the parents had been people who believed in the government or hadn't you know raised a fuss and how many did get away with it you know what I mean like how many out there that they're like Linda Ivers wasn't there to fucking scream about it

that's right and call vomit on everything that's right yeah no that's amazing and horrifying obviously yeah crazy I think that's one of my favorite ones that's amazing well also because it's very satisfying yeah the second you started talking about like the low low plane drops of drugs yeah like all right now we're in a whole different thing this is not small-town America I want to give there's an unexplained-mysteries.com website and there's a dude name how would you say or I'm sorry a person it might be a lady I don't let's say it's a French word Lumiex Lemieux Lemieux mm-hmm who like broke it the

fuck down in a way that was like he did or he or she did a thing that was like based on all these people's testimonies here's what happened and like told the story in a perfect way and I love that it was great because I can't even tell you how much like how many fucking sites I've been doing for this it's really fun like it's a fun rabbit hole yeah that's great yeah really fascinating yeah and of course the boys in the tracks by Mara Leverett let's all read it it's our new book yeah that sounds good oh my god fired up now also then it makes me think of like I wonder if all those you know there's that there's an area I think it

well I'm sure every state has one but like there's that triangle in Massachusetts where it's like crazy shit happens and don't go there it's haunted and all that stuff and it's like that could be a drug drop like I wonder how many things like that that are like urban areas of like the Blair Witch lives here and then all the kids are like go there but then don't go any closer because people get killed or whatever and it's just like don't go here because yeah we're just shipping cocaine into this little cabin it makes me think that what's that place where all the Columbia no the cocaine comes from no I know that one really

well what's the one where like the go and molest children it the the federal credit union oh in Lincoln Nebraska yeah what's that place called the federal credit union no it's the name of the credit union right no no but yeah it's the Bohemian groves in California is that where they go there's a great last podcast in the left about that whole story what's the federal credit union that they talk about no that's the one that's Johnny gosh yes it's Johnny gosh but then the Bohemian Grove is basically insanely rich leaders and it's right by where I grew up Jesus yeah I know people that have like worked there as cater

waiters and stuff but they had they do all this weird shit and it's very secretive can they have a cater waiter Enos and tell us what really fucking happens there on Facebook I will join that subject immediately bohemian grover Enos I mean there's people that say the only reason there's people talk about it so much is just cuz it's all these rich politicians and millionaires and all the stuff yeah and then there's the other people who are like oh no they have full on pagan rituals and they they kill children or whatever it is and who knows what the truth of it is it's just also fast because all of it is up and we're

never going to Arkansas sorry Arkansas but I now I'm not allowed I'm like not allowed there anymore because of the story because of how many people you call the fucking idiot I just implicated everyone and also Dan Harman's gonna get a text at 2 a.m. of like I heard that the girls on my favorite murder talking shit on you Dan like Dan Harmon Harmon town oh no leave Dan Harmon town alone I went to his wedding he's a lovely man we love Dan Harmon town um that's it what's your what do you want to blend right into your hooray I just have a quick one because this was so fucking long and speaking and it

actually blends into the the mansions of the gilded age yeah Instagram I actually have been tagged me and I think called an Instagram called cheap old houses that I just am obsessed with on Instagram and it's just a someone who posts houses that are under a hundred grand but they're like seven grand to like a hundred grand that like old Victorians that you have to go live in like wherever the fuck bum fuck maybe fucking Arkansas yeah but there are these and they show you through the house so it's and they're empty but it looks a little bit like abandoned porn which I love but also a little bit like

I would change the wallpaper in here it's just like it's a deep dive check it out crazy cheap old house you could also along the same lines watch the movie The Money Pit starring Tom and no no it was it's Diane from Cheers right my friend Jennifer Geary and I watched that movie a hundred so good loved it so much well mine this week is I just got super crazy and my friend Dave Messmer God bless you Dave he's been my friend forever we were college roommates he told me to watch Schitt's Creek like a year ago and I think it's because of the title I was like I'm not into that broad stuff or whatever I started watching it

yesterday I watched it for two full days straight I love it it is my fucking favorite there's three seasons of it on Netflix it's so brilliant and it is it was created by Eugene Levy and his son Daniel his real name is Daniel Levy but on the show his character's name is David and his sister's constant going you David and it's my favorite and it's Eugene Levy and what's her face and Catherine O'Hara plays the mother I would watch anything they're in it is so good it is so well-written and it starts out like you know the rich people that fall and then they have to live like poor people which we've seen it

before so I in my judgy judgy TV writer way I'm like no I don't have time for it it's so hard-joke funny the characters are so good crazy Catherine O'Hara's accents alone I could watch it like I'm already planning on rewatching all of it well I told you I was looking through this because you told me that earlier and there's a Schitt's Creek arena wait where is it shit we're shit arenas S-T-H-I-T-T-E-R-I-N-O-S there's a shit arenas yeah I love it so you're gonna join that there's Mimi I'm in it already tell us it's over you guys thanks for listening to this long episode that was how much how long Stephen this isn't

even the longest episode I feel like because it was so much fun it doesn't feel that long yeah that's right this was great it was only three hours and ten minutes yeah thanks you guys for listening we so much for listening love you for being here with us and we have the best time yep what a joy what a joy it's occasion stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye oh here he is the star of stage is green Elvis want cookie good boy