My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 141 - Big Thirsty Robe

Episode Date: October 4, 2018

Karen and Georgia cover the survival story of Heidi and Christine and the murder of Linda Bailey Brown. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome to My Favorite Murder. This is a podcast. This is a podcast about true crime. And there's some comedy elements. You're going to freak out. It's going to, you're going to, you won't believe it. You won't believe your eyes. You won't believe your ear holes.

That's Georgia Hardstark over there. That's Karen Kilgareff over there. Me. What do you have for, what do you have for me, Karen Kilgareff? I want to try to figure out a way to make this beginning more stilted. And I think we're doing it. That was our goal this week, guys, we said, usually the openings are kind of stilted. And awkward.

But let's turn that up to 11. That's everyone's favorite part, so nobody skips anymore. That's right. Because they're like, this beginning is making me sweat. They're getting good at making me uncomfortable. I think I need to start by saying, by not listening to whatever you just said, and by realizing I need to make a correction. Okay.

I, but the correction is from the last many so, I believe, yes. Because we were talking about what book you would take if somebody asked the icebreaker question. Yes. What book would you read? That was the Q&A episode. The Q&A episode. I filed it under mini-sode in my mind.

So it was the last, but it was on the day of the mini-sode, right? No. So it was the last episode. It was a special, it was a full on episode? Yeah. My God, I have to listen to this podcast. I bet it's good. You'd be surprised.

You'd be surprised what we're getting away with. So the question asked was, what book would you read if you could only read, or what book would you pick if you could only read the same book over and over for the rest of your life? And you said Da Vinci Code. I said the Da Vinci Code. Now, it's been haunting me since I said that. So this is a correct, you're correcting yourself.

Well, I'm, I don't know if even I can correct it because it already happened. I did it. I said it. You know it. I have an idea. Okay. Let's really quickly, let's record you answering that question again and we'll have Steven edit that part of you say into the last episode.

Okay. So. So there's, when I'm, there's already people that have heard it. There's already people that have talked to me about it. It's too late. It never happened. It's never happened. It's too late.

And here's what I want to say. As I was thinking about it, what I thought was it's the perfect example of what my mind does when I go into an over, like status overwhelm. So that moment and moments like that, like when people ask you these icebreaker questions, or questions at parties. And like if they're book related or band related or fashion, something that could make you feel bad. And it's not fair because if they're answering it, then they already have their perfect,

they're asking it. They already have their perfect smart person answer. It's exactly right. So they're like, it's like, you know, rubbing their hands together going, what book would you read? Let me hear how stupid you sound right now. Right. So then my brain scans the mental bookshelf in my mind.

All of the spines are blank. There's nothing to be read. Just blank journals. Yeah. And you can't pick one of those. It's all my old journals with like half written Chinese orders, Chinese food orders written on them and poems. So I just went into a full panic and acted as if a bad detailed book is better than a beautifully

written book, which is fucking crazy, but it was me trying to like simplify and fix a problem that didn't even exist. Because no one's going to be like, no, you're wrong. She's like, yeah, no, I'm wrong, but this is what I'm going with. I'm wrong and I'm choosing the wrongness. Whereas if I could re-answer that now and I'm going to, I would pick the, I think my favorite book I've ever read to date is a book by a writer named Colin McCann and it's called Let the Great World Spin and it's, it's a bunch of different stories that lead

up to the day the guy walked across across the tightrope between the two World Trade Center towers. Wow. I love, I love books that are different stories and then you find out at the end how they inter twangle. Yeah. I wasn't going to just keep going. We didn't have to like, we could have ignored that, but the word inter twangle is the best.

I think I was like kind of thinking of a tightrope and how it, you know what I mean, and then it inter twangles. It inter twangles right together. That's right. Proclensity and inter twangle are now my new words that I've made out and then I am fucking sticking with. Your trademark is underneath him. So anyway, any, anyone who has, right now, if in your mind, piece of trivia, you have

my favorite book is the Da Vinci Code, sorry, Dan Brown, we're not doing that today. The please replace it with column McCants, let the great world spin. And I think really what I need is on icebreaker questions. No matter where they're asked, I need a four day hold. So I can really give answers that I'm going to get. From now on, we'll write down essay question, essay answers. I'm sticking with middle sex by Jeffrey Jenner, but that's really because I obsessed with that.

I obsessed with that book. Talking is not going great for me so far. It seems like your words are inter twangled today. My brain just says twangly today. It's so twangled. I want to read a quick thing. Do it. I've got an email from someone named Eric with a K. And it says cheese days episode 139

response. Georgia, Karen and crew. I just listened to episode 139 and George with Georgia story about Athens, Wisconsin. Mm. Remember how we were talking about the, oh, you want a cheese parade? Yes. And now we're. This was the creepy family that there was the whole family was murdered.

The Coons family. That was intense. And they live in it. One son worked at a cheese factory. We talked extensively about what a small town parade for Abraham Lincoln would be like. Right. I think that's what it was. Yeah.

And then we throw cheese curds out the, okay, I live in Monroe, Wisconsin, about three hours south of Athens. Your description of your theoretical fourth of July celebration had me laughing because this was an almost perfect description of my town's biannual cheese days festival. Yes. This festival takes over the entire town and it is such a big deal that they can only have every other year. What?

Fucking party. Oh, shit. Over a hundred thousand people have visited my small town of just, oh, of just under 11,000 residents. What? For three days of nothing but cheese, beer, live music and carnival food. A major draw to the cheese days is the fresh deep fried cheese curds. Lines literally go around the entire block with people waiting to buy their curds.

This cheese days parade is kicked off with Guernsey cattle being led through town. Yes. That kind of cattle. That's your cow. Yes. They're the prettiest ones. Followed by the cheese days royalty. The mascot is a piece of cheese named wedgie, a wedge of cheese.

And his underwear up his ass. We just missed it. It'll be another one in 2020 that we should know that your make believe scenario of small town Wisconsin life wasn't that far off the mark. Yes. Love your show. Stay sexy and eat all the cheese. Eric.

Can someone please put it in our group iCal, the Puerto Reno iCal 2020. Cheese day parade in what was what town below Athens. It's Monroe, Wisconsin. Fucking Monroe's cheese day parade. We will be there. Get us. Oops. Reserve us a room with the bed and breakfast.

Breakfast please, Stephen. Well, while we eat his cheese. Yes. The what get please get us a bed and breakfast that's right on the parade route. Yes. So we can stay in bed, but open the windows. Yes. People throw fried cheese curd into our mouth at us.

This reminds me a lot of Petaluma's butter and egg day parade, which has been going on since the 80s and all I want to do is very cute. It's just like my dad, the great joke that my dad loves to make is that it's not really a legit parade because he's like, Jesus, I could pick up one of those little flags and walk in it myself. Like he's he doesn't like the point I know it's like little kids walk by and they're all from one karate class like it is the cutest best parade is there a pet costume contest where everyone dresses as their dogs as eggs and butter.

You know, because you know why they saved that Petaluma is the home of the ugly dog contest. You know, every year. Shut your face. Okay. Have I ever told you this? Starstruck right now. Right.

Okay. The ugly dog contest has been going on in my hometown of Petaluma, California since the 70s. Holy shit. And here's how I know that that is relatively accurate is because my sister was on the TV show and for people who grew up in the 80s is a big fucking deal. There's a TV show called Real People and it was hosted by Fred Willard, some blonde lady, some blonde guy, and then another guy.

And I can't remember holy shit. These are famous people. It was like there was a whole crew of people skip Stevenson was one of the people and and it was basically just human interest stories from around the nation and it was the best show. We loved it so much. It was like one of those Sunday night kind of 7pm shows, but it's like easy listening of TV shows.

It took completely. You'd just be like, here's this weird guy from Ohio X Lizards. The guy that ate only McDonald's his whole life was on there like like everyone. You know, I'm sure the fat twins from the Guinness Book of World Record that rode their motorcycles probably featured. But when they came to Petaluma to film the ugly dog contest, the Chinese Crested's everywhere. It was. So we heard the TV show Real People will be there.

So, so my sister was in had already signed up my dog, Mugsy, who was just a shitty little gray, you know, like charcoal gray mutt that I think she had an underbite to just kind of skinny and funny. She wasn't even Angliana. No, no, no. She was just plain. Yeah. But it was kind of fucked up and none of the hosts came.

It was just the ENG crew. So there was just a professional TV camera. They were just going to do voiceover for it, exactly right. That's what they did is like they just talk the tape in and out. But when we watched it on the real TV, my sister's rainbow flip flop was on made it to the final cut and we screamed. My dad got mad. How loud we screamed because we went berserk and it was just my sister's fucking foot on

TV. It was my sister's foot and Mugsy, it was one of those shots where the guy put the camera down on the ground and then the dog sniffed up to the lens. Oh, Mugsy, good girl. So Mugsy actually made it to the final cut. Oh, we have to find that tape. What if I saw my old dead dog? You're crying.

I forgot. That'd be so awesome to see Mugsy again. I promise you someone will find that. I mean, it's such an old show, though. I mean, this was like probably 78, 79. Wow. It was like 1,000 years ago. Someone's going to find it.

Real people. Fred Willard. Anyway. Sorry. Mugsy. Oh, my God. That was just a... I just walked you down Petaluma Lane.

Oh. Thanks so much. Where were we? Do we have business? We're just kind of getting knocked out of the fucking park lately. Yeah. That's about to hit. So keep an eye out.

Myfavoritmurder.com and then you'd go to shop. Yes. You know what? I'm going to say this really quick. Okay. Georgia sent me a website that people have been sharing. Do not start a store and say that it's quote unquote inspired by this podcast. And listen, we completely support Etsy artists.

We completely support independent artists, people that are making little individual things. Somebody has started a full-on internet store that has like what, 50 products? It's completely ripped off. It's not stuff they're making. It's the kind of thing where it's on print on demand. Yeah. So you can just make up whatever you want and put whatever kind of... What's the word?

The writing? Yeah. You can put any kind of quote you want and these people are basically entirely ripping us off. Yeah. We would appreciate it. As pretending to be fans. Well, I mean like whether they're fans or not, we need to tell you you're not allowed

to do that. Yeah. This... Like we let people do it on Etsy and stuff like that when it's like individual people are like, I make this cross-stitch for you guys. I make this, I make that. It means creators. We love that people are doing that.

You cannot start an internet store of our merch without permission or like talking about it. That's you're ripping us off. And that isn't inspired by that stealing. So you're not allowed to do that. And we understand there's people that are going to like, we're going to get the... This will make waves because people are like, hey, we thought we were all going to... And it's like, no, no, no, the artist people who...

And they know who they are because we talked to them and their listeners. And we repost their beautiful stuff on our Instagram account. And we love it when we want people to make money off this to a degree. You cannot open a store of our merch. It's not allowed. That's it. We're about to leave for New York. Let's...

I know. Is Georgia first or am I first? Who was first? Oh, Steven doesn't know. Well, because we did a Q&A last week. So what happened the week before? Yeah. So the first question.

Steven. It was a live episode of the week before. Steven, were you in San Diego all day and you just were like at the beach? Now you don't know what's going on. Steven, you do look tan. I was at the zoo. Your face looks tan. I've never passed.

Were you looking for dinosaurs at the zoo, Steven? I was. I didn't find them. Steven, dinosaurs... Oh, it was Karen would go first because it was Joan Dolly. Oh, yeah. So it's me now? Yes.

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farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. No police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry as the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Well, this is good because actually it's one of those times where we leave tomorrow to

go to our New York Boston leg of the tour. Medford, really. And I'm also back working on baskets again. So you know what that means. I survived. I survived. I survived. I survived.

So this is the part where I'm going to retell Georgia and you if you want to listen. An episode of I survived. The best television show it's now on lifetime, but you can also get it on iTunes several seasons. I don't think all of them. But it's my favorite show if you've never seen it and you like true crime and the kind of stuff we talk about. You have to watch the show.

It's firsthand accounts of people talking about terrible attacks, disasters, weird accidents and things where you can't believe that the thing they're going to come to at the end is that they survived it because each story is more horrifying than last. And then every once in a while, there's like a skiing accident and just to cut it. And it comforts you that they survived. The thing I think is cool is that when people tell their own story firsthand, you would think the way you're picturing and hearing the story as I think as we all kind of do as we read this kind of stuff, it's very fatalistic.

It's very upsetting. It's very scary. But when you see a person very calmly and you know, every once in a while, they'll cry. But for the most part, they don't. They just tell the story because they've already fucking told the story 50 to 100 times to all different kinds of people. And now it's there, it's like they're possessing their own story. And a lot of times the feeling is amazing when they get to the end and they smile and

the last thing they always ask them is, why do you think you're survived? And then they give this long list of the different reasons and it sometimes it's God and sometimes it's because they love their family so much or because they thought ahead, like it's just really brilliant. And there's times where like there's multiple stories of people getting shot in the fucking head and surviving and they're sitting there telling the story like it's like nothing happened. Like it's like an anxiety. It would like it would like relieve my anxiety a little bit.

Probably like. Well, because it's almost like a terrible roller coaster where it goes all the way up and freaks you out and you scream your ass on the way down and then you're fine. Then you land fine and you're like, oh, that was someone else's story. I just lived it with them. It's kind of the idea. Okay. So it's really stressful and the first time I watched it was with my sister and she made

me watch it and I kept going, I don't want to watch this. I can't deal with it. And she was like, no, you have to watch this. And it was a story about one of the people. There was three people of every time, usually every time. And this time one of the women was on a hijacked plane and got shot in the head and dumped on the tarmac and she lived. It's the most unbelievable story.

It's so upsetting and so horrifying and yet there she is telling it. Yeah. I mean, crazy. Fucking bananas. Okay. Give it to me. I'm like, I'll pump now. Yeah.

This is why we love it. And this is one, I just keep trying to think when I'm in a pinch and I'm like, okay, what will I know that I've, because there's a bunch of these I've seen a bunch of times. And this is, I just try to think of the ones that stand out in my mind that were like really clear. And so this is the episode of I survived that features Heidi and Christine. I'm not going to tell you anything else about it. I'll just tell you the story.

So it starts in September of 2002. Heidi Hart and Christine Shannon, they've just finished a tour of Israel and Egypt. And yeah. So they decide as their reward for, as they say, surviving the Middle East, they're going to go to Greece and party for a week and just like hang out on the beach and just relax. Great. I've just cut right to that one. They saw the sites.

I wouldn't love nothing more than to see the pyramids in real life. That would be fucking amazing. So anyway, they spend two days in Athens. And then the idea is they plan on traveling all around the smaller islands. So that's basically the rest of their trip, which is five more days. So they decide they're going to take the five o'clock ferry called the express Samina to the island of Peros, which is located in the central GNC. I don't know anything about the world.

So I looked up Greece on a map and it's so crazy. It's like Greece kind of goes like in this, uh, let's, you know, like a misshapen crescent on the top. And then there's just all these islands, just a ton of islands all through that, all through the sea. And so you basically kind of like, there's Meknos and then there's, uh, um, this one, Peros. Other ones.

There are so many of them. But it's that amazing blue water that's like, looks like a movie and, um, all those little, most of those little islands have those whitewashed, um, buildings, like everything's white with blue doors, flat roofs. It's amazing looking. My cousins went there. I'm very jealous of them. That's amazing.

Um, okay. Also, did you ever see the movie summer lovers? If we're going to talk about things from the eighties? No. Well, I highly recommend it to you and all murdering us. It's a film with Peter Gallagher and Daryl Hannah. Oh. They're, I think they're supposed to be like in their mid twenties and boyfriend girlfriend

and they go to Greece, um, for summer and they love and they, and to love each other. But then this fascinating, I think she's French woman shows up in the picture and the, and basically I think Peter Gallagher convinces Daryl Hannah to have a three way with them. There's just a lot. Don't trust Peter Gallagher. Yes. Everyone knows, everyone in Hollywood knows that. Once you see those eyebrows, you know that you're in danger.

Um, this movie was on HBO one night when me and my cousin Nancy were sleeping in my aunt Kathleen's front room when I was probably 10 and she was 12. And Nancy and I didn't get along cause she was two years older than me, but she was the youngest in her family and I was the youngest in my family. So I drove her fucking crazy. She hated my guts, um, but my older sister and her were best friends, classic fucking move on my sister's part, but for some reason my sister either had already gone to sleep or wasn't in.

So suddenly me and Nancy are watching this movie and we're like, holy shit, this is not for us. No. And we know that it was like our bonding moment of like dirty movie, you have to be quiet. We cannot get caught and also like full on sex scenes where both people are naked, no dick, but like it was mind blowing to me and thrilling. And uh, Nancy, I'll always remember you for that exact moment. Is she okay?

Is this her eulogy? No, she's like, she's just a, you know, a mother of two grown children in the South. And she hates you to this day. And she, she can't hate me anymore because I have secrets like how we watch summer lovers that night. And like we, we just kept looking at each other with the widest eyes. Like, you believe that is pouring hot candle wax on her nipples. It was what adults like.

Crazy. Also, I just, we didn't have cable in our house. So we only got to see cable at my aunt Kathleen's house. Nothing fun. I ever tell you about the time my sister and I ran into the porno room at, at our local video store. No. We were in stay sexy and don't care murdered.

The new shared, what is it called? It's called a shared memoir. Dual memoir that we wrote pre-ordered on Amazon or wherever the fuck you by book. Anyways, yeah, we, we ran into the, the dirty section and was there a man in there? I don't remember that, but we got in a lot of trouble. It was great. How long were you in there? Would you say seconds?

Why? So just a few seconds. I made myself stare at one video. So I'd be like, cause I was like turning in circles and being like, Oh my God. I think I was like eight probably and my sister and I were doing that. And I looked at one cover and my sister did too. And the one that I saw was called naked with shoes on. And it was just like this hot young girl and shoes naked, but like her like LA gears on

and I was like, wow, that's what's that. That's a good adult singing sexy. And my sister saw one that that's naked with shoes on is like, it's like emergency naked mess. That's like something your house blew up and you just got knocked onto the front lawn. Like that or naked from the waist down, it was just like something's happening. That's bad. And the one my sister saw was like a lady on a naked lady on the cover was the naked lady

on a chaise lounge lying out and it was called sunny side up. And both of us just ate and we got so much trouble, but it was fucking worth it. Lee, what's up? The idea of you guys spinning in a circle like something in naked with shoes on is the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. That's what I would try to get our memoir called, but they wouldn't try to what? Get our memoir called that, but unfortunately, but they sued us. Yeah.

The porno company. Sexy don't get murdered. Just fit. Hello, better. Okay. That's what our lifetime movie will be called. Okay. Good.

Naked. But with shoes on and scrunchies socks scrunchies. Okay. So they buy third class tickets. We're back now with Heidi and Christine who are taking a ferry trip. They buy third class tickets. And so they, when they get onto the boat, they assume that means that they're not allowed to go below deck or like in the inside protected part.

So they just stay out on the top deck. It's a beautiful day. There's about 540 people taking that five o'clock ferry and most of the passengers actually stayed out up on the deck so they could just take in the view cause it's those again insane blue waters and like that's, you know, when a lot of people were there for the ferry goes out into the ocean, it's, it's about a five and a half hour trip to the island. And so as they're out and going in the open ocean, Heidi walks to the front of the boat and at one point she looks down and realizes she can see into the control room of the boat

and she notices that all the controls look really old. But the, the few crew members that she's seen since she's gotten on the boat all look really, really young. So she, that kind of weirs her out. And then, but the biggest thing is that there didn't seem to be anybody around. There was no one in the control room and there wasn't really anybody around. And so she actually said at one point, she turned to Christine, this is Heidi, she turned to Christine and said, nobody's driving the boat.

I guess we're on autopilot. Yeah. Four shadowing. Right. So it's about an hour or two into the trip and the winds start to get really strong and the water starts to get really choppy. So Heidi gets seasick and they basically decide they're going to hunker down, they stay on the top deck, they hunker down, they get behind a thing for like a windbreak and then they

and take shelter and Heidi falls asleep. So it's about now five and a half hours into the trip. So there are only two miles away from the island of Parros and it's about 10.45 at night. Oh my God. Yeah. And so Christine's been reading a book and then she hears the engines change and she assumes that means like they're shifting, they're downshifting or whatever because they're about to go into port.

So she wakes up Heidi and says, grab your backpack, put it on. It seems like we're about to get off this boat. And Heidi stands up to stretch and put on her backpack. And as she does, she turns around to see and a humongous craggy rock that's taking up her entire field division. So it's directly in front of the boat. They said if they walk five steps, they could have been, they could have touched it and that they basically were just about to crash into the rocks.

But only like a moment before did they even change from being full, full engines on. And just remember, it's nighttime and they are because they're in the front. They look positions themselves at the front of the boat. They're pretty much as close to the impact point as they can be. Christine tells Heidi that was so, so basically they, they were interviewed afterwards. And I saw some of this, it was basically, I think it was AP footage. But they said it was like the Titanic. Like they turned around and this rock was completely lit up.

It took up all of their field division. It was humongous and it was just like a movie. They said they both felt like they were on a movie set. And then they heard this horrible sound. And that was of course the ferry just smashing into these rocks and the impact. They took the impact and then they recovered from that. And Christine says to Heidi, like in a way to try to calm her down, it took four hours for the Titanic to sink.

And Heidi says, we don't have four hours, this boat is going down. So immediately the ferry is taking on water and it rolls to its right side. And again, there's over 500 people on this ferry. All the people are screaming and running. The lights inside the ferry are blinking off and on. No crew anywhere. There's nobody organizing anything. Nobody helping anybody.

What the fuck? I think that Heidi and Christine said there were people running up and asking them for help, asking them where to go. And they didn't speak Greek or not in any way that like if they did, it was not fluent in any way. Like they couldn't speak the language. So everyone's panicking and everybody begins running to the back of the boat, running away from the impact and from where it hit and down to the bottom where the other exit is

and where there's a couple of lifeboats. They're kind of hiding, Christine, they're staying there trying to figure out what they should do. A group of five men rush past them. They knock Heidi over. She hits her head and she thinks she's going to pass out, like go unconscious. But she realizes if she does that, then that means Christine's going to have to carry her body and get her onto a life.

So she's like, I cannot pass out, even though she had to fucking full on head injury. So she fights to stay conscious. At the same time, Christine is looking around and seeing how all these panicked people are all going to the one spot. And she realizes they can't go down there because they'll already, they're their last. So they'll already be at the back of the group of people trying to get on those lifeboats. She knows there's not enough lifeboats and they don't speak Greek. So they're not going to be able to like bargain their way.

They're not going to be able to do anything. So instead they decide they're going to go up the other direction and go high away from the group. There was one, I swear to God, but this could completely be my lying brain. But there was one, I saw them on a different show that wasn't, I survived. It was a dip, but it was basically the same thing. Yeah. It was just a ripoff show.

And they told the same story. And one of them said that, that they, an old Greek man gestured for them to follow him. And that's when that's why they went up upward instead of down. Creepy. And then when they turned around. He was. There's been no old Greek man here since. 25 years.

Not been four to nine. But um, you know, I couldn't find that anywhere. I couldn't find that episode. And so that could be a completely a lie. But I don't think so because it was so, the way Christine told it in that episode was so exact that, and it was so like, what the fuck? I bet it was in summer love and you're getting, I bet you're getting them confused. Or the old, the old man gestures to her to three way, come this, follow me in my sweater.

She's naked with shoes on. So it, I also love that this is another thing you get from the TV show I survived is people telling you what their brains did in these panic moments. And I mean, like in this one, especially, I think the reason that it struck me so much the first four times I've seen it is because all of those moments, like how loud that would be, how she, how like you'd lose your breath seeing your entire field division taken up with rocks when you're supposed to be on a ferry boat in the ocean. Do you think that like there's part of you too now that like when something happens and

you need to survive it, your brain is going to go, how do you want to tell this on I survived? And then you go from there. And then you just act out the story you want, which is that you survived. I hope so. I mean, cause that's also what I love about it is there's people that tell that story and that sometimes they go like, I don't know what I was thinking. And then sometimes they go, I don't know how I thought of doing this. And that's what this seems to be is when Christine talks about that, she's just like,

I just knew we couldn't go down to where everyone else was. So they head upwards, which I fucking love. Now maybe the ghost Greek fishermen help them. We don't know. Probably. But they end up, they actually have to do the thing where they grab the railing and pull themselves because by this point, the boat is almost entirely vertical in the water sinking. Yeah.

Yes. So they're pulling themselves up the rail and then they see that there is a lifeboat on that side of the boat and they, they end up having to jump off the ferry to jump into the lifeboat. Oh my God. And also in that AP footage, they show, they have them walk up and look at the lifeboat from one, from their rescue. And it's like this 15 foot long orange.

It looks plastic. Yeah. Like it's an orange plastic boat. And it, it has like, you know, those benches that are in like any like fishing boat. It's like four of those benches long. Yeah. And then there's this box of a pretty tall box of life vests on one end. And it's so, and the whole thing's orange, the whole thing's the life vest orange.

So they jump into this boat, they're 60 feet above the water. Holy shit. Yeah. And you know, they're basically jumping down when they jump into the lifeboat. Oh, so it's being lowered and they're like, we have, that's the, our only chance. So they jump off the ship into the lifeboat, the lifeboat hits the water and basically begins to fall apart. The bench, Heidi's sitting on collapses.

Her foot goes through the bottom of the boat. And then the boat, and then the lifeboat starts taking on water through this hole in her foot. So she was trying to keep it covered, but also then they're trying to reach into that box of life jackets and pull as many out as they can. So as many people can put on life jackets as possible, cause they don't know the water is crazy choppy. It's really windy. They don't know what's going to happen.

So, and I think it was Heidi described that the box was really tall. So after a while they're pulled, they can see that there's still more life jackets in the bottom and no one can get down to that. So there's a couple like left at the bottom is just fucking like designed poorly. The waves at this point are 15 feet high and the lifeboat keeps getting smashed into the side of the ferry because it's just sitting there. So they put their life jackets on and one man that's in the boat behind them shows them how to turn out.

There's emergency strobe lights on all the life jackets. And then they turn them all on and then they look out into the water and one by one they slowly see these emergencies, strobe lights. And there's just people floating out in the water. Another one of those moments where it's like when you're in like this disaster and these bizarre visuals, like with just memories, yeah, freak the fuck out of you. So they put their life jackets on. So now the ferries almost completely vertical all the people who tried to run to the top

of the boat to get on that lifeboat after Christina and Heidi, they either were stuck in the railings or had slid back down and then are going into the water as the boat is sinking on the other side, which I think Heidi is the one that says it's the she was just watching people either try to try to hang on or just sliding down and falling in. There are one or two other lifeboats in the water at this point. So I honestly think that these lifeboats are built to hold 12 people. That's what it kind of looks like, but they don't look sturdy at all from that one clip I saw.

So they start seeing people swimming toward them because they're one of the only boats. And man in the water reaches out and Heidi reaches out and grabs his hand and grabs him and the people on the boat start in broken English saying, no, no, no, too many people. You can't get him. And she was like, I'm not fucking letting this guy's hand go fuck you. And she wouldn't let go of him. And he was just like coming on. So finally everyone gave in and helped pull him on to the boat because she and it's very

sad because they both are clearly really fucking disturbed because there's all these people that were just trying to get saved. Suddenly a bright light comes on and what's happened, much like in the beautiful film Dunkirk, a commercial fisherman who were at port and heard the crash or the SOS call or whatever it was, jump into their own fucking fishing boats and went out there and started rescuing people themselves, these fucking Greek fishermen. So people start getting pulled out of the water one by one or pulled onto these private boats.

Thank God, 400 people were rescued, holy shit. Then the weather takes a turn for the worse. The seas are too rough. Basically a storm comes in and they have to call off the search after a while. So the friends and family of the missing passengers just had to go down on weight by like the ferry building on word of where their relative or loved one was. And a lot of them never heard anything because 82 passengers died in that ferry crash. 82 people, holy shit.

And it turned out that the reason no one saw the captain is because he was asleep and no one saw any of the crew because they were all inside watching a soccer game. And so the captain and four crew members were charged with murder. Oh my God. But only the captain and the first mate were found guilty. They obviously pledded down guilty of criminal negligence and serial manslaughter and they got 16 and 19 years in jail respectively. Holy shit.

And Heidi at the end, Heidi and Christine say they survived because of each other, which is very sweet. But yeah, isn't that fucked up? That is the craziest. I'm never leaving the house again. I always debate whether I should or not. I kind of shouldn't. I like always know something bad's going to happen and my brain's like, no, it'll be fine.

But this proves to me, don't ever go on vacation. Don't do things that you think you'll enjoy and just stay at home. Great. Right? Is that the lesson? Totally uplifting. Is that the lesson I'm supposed to know? Trust your, count on your friends.

Buy third class tickets, stay close to the top, don't run in the direction other people are running. Okay. Running in a different direction. Yeah. But if seagulls are flying overhead, go in the direction they're going. Why? I just got that from the day after.

Isn't that the day after? The Jake Gyllenhaal movie? What? The day after tomorrow? The day after tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. Where there's a huge tidal wave coming toward Manhattan.

And so because of that, like 2,000 seagulls fly across like downtown New York City and everyone just looks up and then keeps on going about their business and just like that many birds. Listen to the seagulls. Listen to them. And they don't just want your chips. That's been, that was great. That was a great story.

Okay. Great. Thank you. I will. I really needed something to, to tide me over. I will leave the house again. I promise. So this is a murder that happened in the late 80s and I, and in Orange County and I somehow

always forget that it's a hometown of mine and that I remember seeing it happen on the news and I remember, I must have seen the made for TV movie about it because there's some parts of it that stick out in my brain and I was like under 10, but like in the back of my brain of like, oh yeah, I totally remembered that. And I remember being there and feeling this empathy for some of the characters. And I keep coming back to it because I keep forgetting to do it. And now finally today, I decided to do it hours before this, we were meant to record. We're doing our best.

And yet I did it. You did it. You made it. So this is this crazy story of manipulation and lies and it gets turned into a fucking and rule book, yes, which I didn't know until I studied it today called if you really loved me. Yeah. Do you remember it?

Second only to the stranger beside me. If you really love me may have been the next one that came out or something. It's the murder of Linda Bailey Brown. Wow. Do you know this story? I don't think so. Okay. I just know the title of that book is really well known.

Okay. It's Bananas. We should all read it next. Okay. And I don't think we should listen to it because it's a bridge. So we should read it, bedside table, etc. It's a bridge. What do you mean?

A bridged. Oh, a bridge. Terabithia? Heard of it? I don't want to go to terabithia. Okay. The next book we're all going to read is a bridge to terabithia. The end.

The fact that you had that book like right in hand is so awesome. Thank you. Okay. Let's talk about 14-year-old Cinnamon Brown, which is really hard to Google because that's the color I dye my hair. Oh, yeah. It's kind of like, you know, so it becomes a thing. It's two nouns.

Yes. Yeah. But it's a cute name. Anyways, that's not the point of this. Okay. 14-year-old Cinnamon Brown, she seems like a typical preteen or teenager in the 1980s. She's pretty. She stays out of trouble for the most part.

She's really likable, has friends, you know, things like this. Yes. In the 1991 made-for-TV movie, Love Lies and Murder, she's played by Moira Kelly. Yes. Do you know her? Moira Kelly is from the ice skating movie. Which one's that? It's the...

Is it the ice skater and the guy who plays? No, that's the one where they do the... Oh, yeah. And that was filmed at Petaluma. I'm not kidding. What's it called? Whistlebusters Stallone. Wrist wrestling competition.

Yeah. Is that what that's called? Yeah. Or arm wrestling. Arm wrestling, right? We call it wrist wrestling. That's silly. You made the movie, so you should know.

You know the rom-com where the guy is a hockey player? Yes, that's the one. Yeah. Yes. Moira Kelly's the girl in that. Okay. She lived in Garden Grove, which Stephen knows we in Orange County called Garbage Grove. Okay.

Not for any reason. It's actually a really lovely suburb, but what a great name to call it. Yeah, that's a good slam. It's very garbage pale kids and you where you're just kind of doing a slight twist. You'll remember it from a sublime song, et cetera. Of course I will. You only you, Karen, because you know the whole catalog. I write the lyrics out in my notebook.

The notebook that's your favorite book? Yeah. She would only read her notebook. Okay. All right. It's a quiet suburb in Orange County. She lives there with her dad. He's a 37-year-old super wealthy computer businessman, whatever that means.

God, that sounds young to me. I know. It's like people having children. It's younger than me. It's like a grown-up too, like if you've seen photos of him, he's like, he's played by Clancy Brown. Yes. You mean the owner of the Krusty Krab?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, from SpongeBob. So he was in Pet Cemetery 2, which was what they, in the trailer for this movie that go, and from Pet Cemetery 2, like that's his major credit then in 91, but then I went and looked at his IMDB and he has done so many fucking voiceovers, like that's his thing. Yes. Right.

But he's also a great actor. He's, you know, one of the unsung actors. Character actors. Yeah. He always plays like a sheriff. Yes. Yes. Type of guy.

Right. So he's the dad. He's a 37-year-old David Brown. He's a computer wizard. He had been a millionaire by the time he was 32, like this guy, you know, he lives with, so Cinnamon lives with him and his new wife, 23-year-old Linda Marie Brown, played by Catherine DeProem. DeProem?

I don't know. She's in Firewalk with me, Twin Peaks Firewalk with me. Oh. As who? I don't know. Okay. I don't know. But she nailed it.

She got into two things. Pretty blonde woman. Okay. But still, did you say 24? 23 and he's 37. Yeah. Right? That's a bit of it.

That's very, uh, Orange County in that era. Yeah. Maybe. Like the divorced, right? Right. That's true. Second wife. Yeah.

Hello, Clancy Brown. Clancy Brown. What's going on? His fourth? Fourth wife at 37. I think it's her fourth marriage, his fourth marriage, and I think one of the other marriages was to her. So.

I love those. Yeah. The like, get divorced, then get remarried. Yes. That's pretty special. It's so dramatic. It is. And what a waste of paperwork.

Lots of money, too. So, so Linda is David's fourth marriage. The first, his first marriage was Cinnamon's mother that had ended in infidelity when Cinnamon was four. And so she had kind of been back and forth between her mom and dad since then. And Linda, the, the wife had met David when she was just 13 or 14 years old. Ooh. Yeah.

And he was in his early twenties. So Linda was living at home with her abusive alcoholic mother and her 10 fucking siblings. No. Which like, isn't a thing in Orange County either, unless you're Mormon. Yes. Also, that's very fifties. It's like. Yeah.

Cause this, did you say it's the eighties? It's the eighties. Yeah. Yeah. That's rare. I didn't, being from Orange County, I don't think I knew anyone. There was one Mormon family that had five siblings and everyone else, like we were weird for being three.

Yeah. It's like, doesn't happen. Yeah. We had, we had one family that, but it's Catholics. Yeah. That's very old school Catholic. Yeah. So David sweeps in and he's like a knight in shining armor.

He provides the family with food. He kind of acts like a father figure. He takes care of it and he throws his money around and presses, impresses the alcoholic abusive mother. Nice. As only a sociopath can do. And she's real tough to please. Yeah.

Cause you know how hard that is. Yeah. So David tells the mother that he's dying of colon cancer. He only has six months to live. He's really weak. So he's having a hard time around the house. Can Linda, her teenage, her like 13, 14 year old daughter and another one of Linda's little sisters come to help around the house, his house, he'll pay them for help out.

And the mom's like, great. I'm an alcoholic. I have a ton of other kids to worry about. Yeah. Get them out of here. Great. Great. Um, then it cut.

So miraculously though, David beats the cancer that he never had. Jesus. There's, it's a very special place in health. The people that claim to have cancer do not. No. Totally. And then Linda, who's 15 at this point is in love, madly in love with David, there are, they're having a sexual relationship at this point.

Oh, shit. Yeah. So he's in his 20, late 20s now. She's 15. That's pedophilia. Uh-huh. And Linda's in love with him. So, uh, finally at 17, she gets permission to marry David and, uh, let's see, they get

back to, they get together, Linda brings, Linda moves in with David and brings her little sister Patty to live with Cinnamon, who now lives with her dad, David and Linda. So Cinnamon, Patty is two years older than Cinnamon. Okay. Um, and Cinnamon had been struggling with her parents divorce. They admittedly used her as a pawn between the two of them to get back at each other. Um, and Linda, the wife's now 23, she had had just had a baby girl seven months before in crystal.

Okay. So does that all make sense? There's a lot of girls names. Yes. No. Patty's the little sister. Cinnamon is the original daughter. Yeah.

She's the oldest. Uh-huh. Um, there's a new baby named Crystal, which is, makes it, what, 1986? Hang on now, with a K. No. No. I'm so fucking lutely with a K. Come on.

That's such a period of time. Cause it's Orange County. That's right. What up, Crystal? What's up, Crystal? And all crystals with a K across the nation. Yes. What up?

Hi, gals. So, uh, d-d-d-d. All right. So, that's where everything stood, the morning, in the early morning hours of March 19th, 1985. Wow. Here we are. Four years old, like 20 minutes away, sleeping probably. Yes.

Let's hope. God. When Cinnamon woke up in the middle of the night, so she's 14, wakes up in the middle of the night, walks into her stepmother, Linda's bedroom, where Linda's sleeping alone. David's not there, she points a.38 caliber gun to Linda's chest and shoots her point blank with two silver tipped bullets. Oh my God. Yeah.

14 year old. Cinnamon. I didn't. I was trying to guess. You were wrong. It's not. No, that wasn't in there. Yeah.

Police are called and they get there and find David, the father who at the time of the shooting had been at a local convenience store, it's confirmed by the store clerk that he was there buying comic books and pre-packaged fruit pies, which apps the fucking lily, sign me up for that. I mean, yeah. That's what a convenience store is for. Right. And so, he's standing there with his wife's younger sister, Patty, who I think is 17 at

the time. And Patty's holding the baby, they're both straw, they're saying, Patty's saying, David says, I got home, Patty told me she heard some gunshots and she's freaking out. I'm too scared to go in the back bedroom and look what happened. I can't go back there. I peeked in and I saw Linda's arm hanging off the bed and some blood, but I'm just like, I'm too freaked out to go back there. And so, they take Linda, she's still breathing.

They pack her up and take her to the hospital, but she dies pretty quickly after that. Yeah. She has gunshot wounds and cinnamon is nowhere to be found. Officers scour the neighborhood and they can't find her. They call her friends and to see if they're with, she's with her friends. Friends are all fucking shocked to hear about this because to them and to Cinnamon's mother, this is not like Cinnamon at all. She's a sweet, kind, funny girl.

She's obedient to her father who she adores and just like is such a huge fan of her dad's. They said that Linda and Cinnamon seemed to get along so they don't know why she would shoot her stepmother and also that she seemed a lot younger than her 14 years. She was kind of a, you know, not immature, but what's the innocent child. Yeah. Wow. But finally at around 5 a.m. and this is the part that I remember hearing the first time as a five or six year old being like, picturing it perfectly in my mind and I can still see

what I saw then. Around 5 a.m. an officer is in the backyard of the house and notices that there is a figure laying in the dog house. There's a backyard. There's a dog house. He sees something going on in there. There he finds 14 year old Cinnamon. She's frail and scared.

She's nearly comatose, curled in the field position. She'd been there for hours and was soaked in her own urine and also surrounded by her own vomit in which are these tiny orange pills from the three bottles of pills she had swallowed to try to overdose on after the shooting. In her hand, she's clutching a crumpled suicide note and it reads, Dear God, please forgive me. I didn't mean to hurt her. Oh, no.

They take her to the hospital. Just kidding. They take her to the police station. No. They take her directly to the police station, even though she's continuing to vomit from her. Overdose. Yeah.

Medics check her and say, no, it's okay to continue with questioning her. She's okay. Jesus Christ. So, she admits that she fired the gun that killed her stepmom. She said she didn't get along with her and Linda had told her she was going to kick her out of the house and she thought Linda was jealous of her relationship with her dad and that Linda had threatened to kill her if she didn't move out. And that's why she did it.

Jesus. And that's what she tells them. Her condition starts to deteriorate, so she's finally taken to the fucking hospital. And there she's handcuffed to the hospital bed. She's starting to go, fall into unconsciousness when she starts to mumble some stuff. And so a nurse is like what, this sounds like something like, it sounds rehearsed, like she's repeating a list, I'm going to write it down. So she writes down this, having slept in 24 hours, had an accident, killed my stepmom,

killed my stepmother, didn't want to do it on purpose, didn't mean to. She was hurting me. She hated me. She wanted to kill me. She wanted me out of the house. And then she falls into unconsciousness, but she does survive and she's okay. So according to David, her dad, Linda, the stepmom and Cinnamon had gotten in a fight that night as they often did, they often bickered.

And Linda had sent Cinnamon to what, where she stayed and like slept and hung out. There was like a travel trailer in the back, I don't know, like an airstream kind of thing I'm assuming, where Cinnamon slept and lived because the house was so small she'd come in for food and like to use the bathroom and stuff like that. So Linda had sent her to her trailer and they, and so David and Linda had continued fighting. He stormed out of the house, which is why he was gone when this thing took place. And when he finally got home is when he found Patty saying that there had, that something happened, that Linda had, that she had heard shots in Linda's room and that Cinnamon had

also tried to shoot her because there was one bullet in Patty's room too. So there were three shots, but when they questioned David again, 24 hours after the incident, his story changes in slight ways that contradict what Patty is saying. And so Patty had said that after Linda had gone to sleep, Cinnamon had come to her with a gun and was like, Hey, can you show me how to use this? Which is like, don't do it. But she shows her how to use it. It doesn't think anything of it and goes to bed.

Let's see. Okay. Of course, this seems totally fucking fishy to detectives, right? Yes. But Cinnamon's admitting everything. She's saying that, that she did it. She wanted her stepmom dead and, but she couldn't give them a good reason why. She just said she wanted to and she told them exactly what happened.

And David did tell them that it fit with her current mental state because a couple weeks earlier she had tried to OD on aspirin. So it was like, maybe she was depressed or something. She goes to juvie. She goes straight from the hospital to juvie. And on August 7th, 1985, Cinnamon's trial begins. So she pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. At this point, she's interviewed by psychiatrist and she doesn't remember anything about it

a night or why she would have done it if she doesn't know anything. And the psychiatrist who's treating her says that she didn't know right from wrong the night of the murder. Ooh. But in her original story from the night of the murder, when they took her straight from the fucking doghouse to the police station is actually not admissible. So they don't have that anymore. What they do have though is the nurse's testimony and what the nurse wrote down about what she

was babbling while she was fucking incoherent basically. Right. And so the prosecution uses that. And with that, she is found guilty of first degree murder. Yeah. Her father doesn't show up to her trial. What? She thinks that, you know, maybe he's mad at her for killing his wife, which is like...

Sure. Okay. But David does show up at the sentencing hearing, but detectives are like, ski the fuck out by this dude because he's like smiling and acting like a little kid. His ex-wife is sitting in the chair, you know, Cinnamon's mom in front of him and he's like kicking at it, like pulling her hair flirtatiously and shit. And he's just being a fucking weirdo. And they're just like, this is weird.

This dude's weird. That's so uncomfortable. Isn't it creepy? That's crazy. Yeah. That's your boy Clancy. The way to go. So Cinnamon is sentenced to 27 years to life for the murder of her stepmother, but because

she's a juvenile, she's sent to a youth facility until no later than 25 years old. So the... That happens. Okay. The original investigator on the case with the DA, J Newell, had never felt comfortable about this at all. He knew there was something fucking going on here that was more than what Cinnamon was telling them.

Yeah. But she was a minor and so he kind of just kept an eye on everyone. He would put... It's like straight up like the center, the first season of the center. I was just going to say. It doesn't sound like that. It's Bill Pullman. Remember she was just like, no, I just killed him.

I just killed him. I'm going away. I don't want to talk about it. He's like, there's something fucking going on. Yeah. He's like, show me how to shoot this heroin up. Yeah, that's right. She's like, I don't know how.

It's like, I fucking knew it. So he keeps at her though and he also continues to visit her and Judy just as like a friend because her dad stops visiting her. Oh, the noblest of cops. I know. The noblest of like homicide detectives. The ones who... The person they're supposed to be trying to get found a guilty charge against and if

their gut is wrong, they're actually trying to... They don't want to. Yeah. They don't want it. Of course not. They don't want that guilty charge if it doesn't count. Yeah. Because normal people with ethics are like, no, we want justice to be served and we want

the right person to be in jail, not just someone to be in jail. Right. Especially if it's a fucking 14 year old girl. So and he puts money in her commissary and make sure she's taken care of and shit. Meanwhile, her dad's rich as shit, but he's not doing that. He's just gone. Yeah. So meanwhile, Patty and David, the David, the dad and Patty, the sister of the now

dead wife, Linda. Don't tell me. No, no. They're living together. Okay. So they continually have their baby crystal with a K is still like, she's taking care of her. The house is falling apart.

So a friend of Linda's offers to help come over and like pack up Linda stuff and take care of some things around the house. I think she's played by, um, what's her face from sex in the city? Kim control. No. Do you know that? Yes. Oh yeah.

Yeah. She's played by her, I believe. She notes that Patty is taken to wearing Linda's clothing, 17 year old Patty is wearing her dead older sister's clothing. She's sitting in her in what was Linda's chair and she'd replace all of Linda's pictures with pictures of herself. Oh, there's not necessary. You can have, you can keep the pictures and then add more pictures.

And actually, the story reminds me a lot of the story from the teacher's pet. Yes. That really great podcast. So we should all listen to amazing. If you haven't listened to the teacher's pet, you absolutely have to. It's from the Australian newspaper, the Australian and it's just done so well. And it's one of those things too, where it's like, this is, this is red flag city. Yes.

But no one ever noticed it in the, in the 80s, red flag city hadn't been established yet because if you, if there would be nobody there to raise the red flag, because everything was like, mind your own business. Mind your own business. I don't want to. Yeah. The fucking 80s were a red flag. They were tough.

The whole thing was a red flag. Sorry. Can I just ask really quick, do you remember who played the cop that was trying to be on cinnamon side? No, because they don't, they don't name the cops real name. You know what I mean? So I couldn't find this guy, Jane Newell. It was like, it was like Sergeant someone else.

Oh, right. You know what I mean? There's multiple. So I bet you could find it. Okay. If Stevens wants to look. Can you, can you even found it? Oh, shit.

He's got it. I was going to say there's, there is a Sergeant Patterson. That's probably him. And he's a Paul Holz-ish kind of looking fellow. He reminds me of a Paul Holz. John, John M. Jackson. Here's his IMDb. John M. Jackson played him.

Who's that? You know, all these people, John Ashton, Nestor Serrano, you've seen all these people on every TV show. All the characters from forever and ever. Yes, exactly. Amen. Yeah. Um, they were all in like one episode of like, uh, what's a show, LA Law.

Yeah. John Ashton, you've seen on tons of stuff. There's a couple of them. And Nestor Serrano also has been in a million. He's always the detective, especially if it happens in LA. Yes. Love it. Okay.

So meanwhile, they're all living together, the fucking friend is like skieved out by this shit. And Patty also gets jealous of this friend when David and her are, if they're ever like alone together. It's just like, there's something fucking ain't right here. She is convinced at this point, she gets the fuck out of there cause she's like, I think Patty fucking killed her, killed Linda. I don't think Cinnamon did it, but she leaves and sticks to her own business, right?

Because it's the 80s. So, all right, let's cut to three and a half years of Cinnamon living at the California Youth Authority, fucking what was known as Juvie, right? And I remember being really scared of going to Juvie in Orange County because the stories I heard from there as a young rebellious teen were like, terrible. I was like, you can do shitty things, but don't do anything shitty enough to end up in Juvie because you won't make it. Well, also, I think people get a very romantic, teenagers can be very romantic about like,

oh, I'm going to get arrested and that's going to make me this, this is going to make me that. It's like, no, it's going to break your fucking heart. I don't want to deal with the other girls in fucking Juvie. They won't like me. There's a lot of hair pulling in Juvie. There's a lot of insulting. That's right.

They'll be mean. They'll be mean. They'll pinch you. But then they also might make you sad. Oh, my God. And what if you have a bond with them? I did go to rehab in Santa Ana with like girls, rehabby, like Juvie girls and they were all lovely, sweet, very fucking traumatized girls.

And the stories that they told a group were heartbreaking, even as a 13 year old, I was like, oh, I better fucking get my shit together. I were really sad. Shit. So, three and a half years in cinnamon is now 18 and Jay's been sticking around our cop dude and he can sense that she's ready to start talking and like maybe stuck around for three years. He's just been like checking in on her and God bless him, bless his heart, bless his,

he'll be played by Paul holes in the movie we're writing about it. So he can sense she's ready to talk about what happened, but there's some, he knows David's no longer visiting and he is like, I know how to, how to get her to talk. And that is to tell her what's really going on in her with David right now. Oh, no. He's like, once she finds out, she's like, I think she's been covering for David. Yeah. For her father.

Yeah. Who she fucking adores and like thinks the sun shines out as fucking asshole. So what she tells him is this, what he tells her is this. So one number one after Linda's death, David from the four life insurance policies he had taken out on Linda, his wife got almost $1 million in life insurance money. Sorry. And he already was a millionaire. Yes.

And so he'd been living the fucking high life that he had multi-million dollar homes in Orange County. He was fucking living it up buying all the sweet shit in his multi-million dollar home where he lives, as I said, with his former sister-in-law, Patty, now 20 years old. Guess what? What? Right before cinnamon and sentencing, Patty and David got married. Yeah.

I could see that one coming even though it was the creepiest option of all. It always is. You sensed it. Yeah. So that's his sixth marriage or yeah, his sixth marriage. Second within that family. Yeah. Guess what?

They now have a baby daughter together. Oh, no. So cinnamon brown is like, okay, fuck this dude. Yeah. Clearly this guy has been using me. I'm fucking talking. She tells authorities that her father orchestrated the entire scheme and Patty was involved in it too.

Whoa. Um, she realizes that she's been totally conned by her dad and she tells them that the truth is that David is a fucking crazy manipulative, manipulative dude. It's almost like he could easily lead this cult. He was into young girls and he would manipulate them and tell him these crazy things and he was just really good at that stuff. Total sociopath. He had brainwashed his daughter into believing that Linda, David's wife was going to kill

him. Her. Him. Wait. David convinced Cinnamon that Linda was trying to kill him. Him. Yeah. So, and that they had, he and Patty together told Cinnamon for months that they needed

her to kill Linda or David was either going to get killed or he'd have to leave town and never see her again because he'd had to run from Linda. What the fuck? Um, he told, they, they hounded her for months that they needed her help and they convinced her that as a minor, she wouldn't get any jail time for the murder. She'd maybe have to get some fucking therapy, but that was it. And he said, if you really love me, you'll do this for me. I'm your father and I know it's best.

Oh my God. Yeah. And they said that Linda was trying to kill him to get his money in his business. But what was really happening is he's having an affair with a teenager and trying to get rid of his already very young wife. Mm-hmm. Who just had the other baby who he was obsessed with since she was a teenager or he'd fucking since she was a teenager too.

Now that she's 20 something and has a baby, he's not interested anymore because he's a straight up pedophile. Similarly to the teacher's pet story. Yes. And now he's trading her in for her fucking younger teenage sister. Wow. Yeah. That's evil.

And a great way to do it is to get your daughter who is young and naive by everyone's account to do it for you. To commit murder. Hold on. Okay. It gets worse. No. Yeah.

Cinnamon says the night of the murder, Patty told her that she had overheard Linda on the phone saying like, we need to kill David right away. And so that in the middle of the night, David woke Patty and Cinnamon up and said to them, girls, it has to be done tonight. Oh my God. She originally told Cinnamon that she needs to make it seem like she tried to kill herself out of guilt of the murder. So he says she needs to, once she kills Linda, she needs to shoot herself in the head.

But just graze your head. So it looks like a suicide attempt. It'll be just a scratch. She tells her, but she says she's too scared. And so instead he says, okay, how about instead take these three bottles of pills. They're not enough to kill you. You'll be fine. And so she does that.

So she says she swallows the pills. She sees her dad drive away and then she goes down to the doghouse. And from there, she hear the three gunshots inside the house as Patty killed the sister. Wait, but so the case is reopened. They need a corroboration. So they get Cinnamon to wear a wire. They have David come to visit. She's like, I'm freaking out.

I don't know. You told me I wouldn't get any time. Why am I still here? You said I wouldn't be here for long. And he admits that so he won't admit to it though, and he continues to try to manipulate her. He tells her that Patty can just come take her place. He can work it out, just have them choose switch place and like she'll come take care

of like come take the rest of the time. Yeah. And they can convince everyone that Patty was the killer. He can range for it. But then Jay who's listening on the wire is like something's fucking off about this. Cinnamon is not telling you the truth. I can tell. So she finally admits that she actually was the one who pulled the trigger, but everything

else is true. They fucking manipulated her into doing it. She didn't understand what's going to happen. She said David, her dad gave her a pillow and told her to hold it over the trigger when shooting Linda and then said to them, you girls take care of business while I'm gone and left. So Cinnamon had gone in, held the pillow up, shot her once, but the pillow had jammed the gun.

So she brings it back over into Patty's room and is like, I don't know what's happening with this gun. It goes off, which is why there was a shot in her room, apparently like grazing, almost hitting Crystal, the baby. She's fine. But then they hear Linda moaning in the other room because she's still alive. She goes back in and shoots her one last time. Then she takes the pills and goes down to the doghouse.

Jay asked Cinnamon, if David was the one to show her where to shoot yourself in the head when he was like, you'll graze your head and Cinnamon says, yeah. And that's when she realizes that if she had shot herself the way he showed her to do it, it wouldn't have grazed her. It would have killed her. And that's when she realizes he was trying to kill her too. And in fact, the pills she took, the only reason she didn't die from them is because she threw up in the doghouse.

So she absolutely would have died from the pills. She realizes that's going on, then they realize that he had insurance policies out against her too. Of course. So he was trying to kill both of them. Oh, God. Yeah. And pinned the whole thing on his daughter that he killed.

He's a fucking psycho. Psycho. Like Ann Rule, I think, was more afraid of him than she was of Ted Bundy. She said he was like the biggest manipulator or sociopath she's ever seen. Well, and also just to just keep on doing it within the family. Yeah. I mean, there is something really especially heinous about it. It gets worse, worse.

Oh, my God. Yep. Sorry. I like it. I know, right? Patty and David are arrested. Patty's 20 by now. They're arrested and David frantically writes to Patty to try to keep her loyalty to him

in prison. Yeah. But she turns on him too when she hears the wiretap of him saying, we'll get Patty to take the blame for it. Fuck this shit. This guy's an idiot. He's not smart. He's like what a super monster he is.

Also, it's funny in like this, just like a sociopath or whatever psychopath, but like that they the charm doesn't really work on paper. It's like it really is a person to person face to face thing. So like the idea that he's trying to put all that manipulation down on the page. Well, what doesn't what we understand about controlling people is that the reason that people like this who are crazy controlling make you not have any friends and family like around you anymore is because the minute you're not in that in that person's like orbit anymore, it all falls apart and cracks because of reality.

And if you have like just one bitchy friend that's like, sorry, that guy's got fucking weird eyes. I don't like him. He leans in too far when he's talking totally and he acts like he's in love with you and he's fucking lying. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

That's right. That's why you always have to be the friend who hates your friend's boyfriend. You have to. It's for their own good. It's for their own good. Unless, what? I don't know. Unless you're the psycho.

Unless you're trying to get that boyfriend. Unless you're trying to get that boyfriend. What if you're the friend who's a sociopath and he is like, your friend's a fucking sociopath. I mean, there's all these possibilities of who I could be. I have all the choices in the world. He didn't mean you. He said like, oh. But, you know.

You do always tell me to break up events. I'm like, he is hurting you behind your back. Listen, I only hit on him to see if he would do anything about it. And he didn't, which means he's a good guy. It was a test. I'm so happy for you. It was a test. I made it up.

So, so he's trying to get her to not talk, but she turns on him too. So thank God. And part of the reason is because when she got, so when they got married, he was like, it's secret. Don't tell anyone. Because of course the police would be like, what the fuck? But also because she was a child and everyone would judge him. Yes.

I first seated that. Then she got knocked up by him. We're telling everyone that you had an affair and it's not my kid because you're too young and it's creepy. That's only after he tried to get her to get an abortion and she was like, fuck no. But tell everyone that some other dude knocked you up. God. And he makes, he refuses to pay for any of the, the baby having business, you know.

Medical costs. Thank you. And. Sorry, the super millionaire. Uh-huh. You have to pay for it. He's even more of a millionaire because of his murders. Yeah.

And he's like, sorry. That she helped fucking may happen that would not have happened without her. Right. Jesus Christ. So when their daughter's had her, Heather's born, their daughter is Heather's born. He refuses to pay medical. Um, her everything to do with her, but he does take out hundreds of thousands of dollars of life insurance on the baby.

So she's like, you know what, go fuck yourself. Yeah. Go back. She tells police that they had been planning the murder of her sister for three years together and that, uh, cinnamon hadn't even brought into the last few months. Whoa. They had tried, uh, Patty had tried to kill her sister once too, but she couldn't go through it.

She chickened out. So instead they're like, let's have cinnamon do it. She's a minor. Convince her to do it. Then Patty drops. All right. Here's the last. It gets worse.

Okay. She tells them that David had been molesting her since she was 11 years old. Oh my God. So this is one I kind of don't, it kind of clears her. She was just as big of a pawn as he was, as cinnamon was that entire time. Yeah. So she'd been manipulated and controlled probably longer than cinnamon had. Yes.

And being victimized and abused. And sorry, do we know that cinnamon was not molested? That never, ever came out. Yeah. And I don't think so. Yeah. Um, it, it almost seems like she was off a limit somehow in like a pawn in the, with the ex-wife.

Right. Who fucking knows? Maybe. I know. I know. Oh my God. I know. Like he, it wouldn't surprise me.

This guy's a monster. Also just the sad thing, we were just talking about this before we started recording, but it's that horrifying thing of like when those pedophiles and those predators, they pick people who have divorced parents. They pick kids who don't have advocates that stand around going, get the fuck out of here. They make sure to pick the 11th child of the alcoholic family. Well, it turns out that, uh, she had left her alcoholic mother's house when she left to move in with David and Linda because she had been molested at that house.

I am sure some dude who rolled through. Right. So yeah, she was, you know, just this, this clear victim and was taken advantage of by this fucking monster. And I feel like if that is normalized to you at such a young age, then when he's, it's like, it's not, um, uh, it to that child's mind, that's a norm. Well, David, David told her lots of men did that to teach young women about sex. That's what he told them.

This is normal. So he just normalized all of that victimization and then like the brainwashing was just the natural next step. Yeah. And she lived in the house with him. So there's no way for her to like escape it and he's supposed to be a father right tight. It's disgusting.

All horrifying. Yeah. Um, and then then, you know, they, they then at 15 saying like, we need to get rid of your sister because I'm in love with you and I want you to be the white like, so that her obsession of getting rid of her sister has to do with being special, keeping this guy who's been the one to, you know, quote unquote, take care of her and quote unquote, love her. Right. Where if you have a life where you know, no one ever loved you or acted like they loved

you, then you've got some millionaire with stars in his eyes over you. So it's so sad to think of Linda, the wife who had no idea in her mind, this fucking knight in shining armor came and saved her. She had a baby and she was, you know, and she was saving her little sister and she got a raised cinnamon who by all accounts, she actually did get along with. And so she just had no idea that she was in an insanely unsafe situation and, and, and had no chance to escape it. It was just like the fucking Cobra was right there in the house.

It's so, it's so awful, isn't it? So now in jail, David, okay, now in David's in jail, okay, he is going to go to trial for all this shit. He hires a fellow inmate, a fellow prisoner to kill the Orange County deputy district attorney, Jeffrey Robinson, investigator, J Newell are Paul holes of the story and to also kill the third victim, his fucking ex, his wife, Patty. So he hires him to this dude to kill all these people because she'd become a key witness at this point.

Right. Uh, jailhouse snitch, snitches get lollipops, as we always say snitches get candy was like, guess what? And so that, thank God, didn't happen. So at the trial, also just sorry about the ego of that, like, I'm not just going to kill the deputy district attorney, which is like, a huge, yeah, like you think you wouldn't get caught. But I'm also going to kill the like people who are doing their jobs because you're a

monster and terrifying and you're where you're supposed to be and you're going to kill them because you're mad at them for fucking doing their jobs for doing their jobs and keeping you the super psycho and the place you need to be right. And top of which it's that idea that a person that's that psychotic would also have that much money. Yeah. That's what's scary. I'm sure it's that thing, that Trump thing of like, anyone will do anything I say because

I have so much money. I buy people off and I buy, buy, buy, buy. Fucking true. Yeah. Once you can just throw money at anyone, you don't have to be, you know, a good person at all. If you don't want to. You get anything you want.

That's right. So gross. Um, so at the trial, both Cinnamon and Patty testify against him. So according to Cinnamon's testimony, and this is why this book is called that the thing her father would say repeatedly to gain her cooperation in the murder scheme was he would repeat if you loved me, you would do this for me. Yeah. If you loved me, you do this.

Like, so that's how it worked. Um, and Orange County jury took less than seven hours to convict David Brown on first degree murder for a financial gain and conspiracy conspiracy. Um, the judge said that he was worse than Charles Manson. Oh shit. Like I've, I've never, I, I've never seen a bigger fucking sociopath, even Charles Manson than you. Wow.

Yeah. Um, because Charles Manson did it to fucking strangers. You know what I mean? Like you did this shit to fucking people who love you. That's right. And trust you and all your family, like your own daughter. Yeah. Uh, and that orders David who's at this point, 37 years old to spend the rest of his life

in prison with no chance of parole in May of 1989, Patty, who is now 21, she pleads guilty in a sentence to the same youth facility that Cinnamon was at for about the same amount of time, 25 into the age of 25. Um, she's released when she's 25. Um, Cinnamon was released in February of 1992. She got paroled. So she was still in there at 21. She's finally released.

So Cinnamon had served eight years in the, uh, in juvie. Jesus Christ. So both Patty and Cinnamon went on to marry and have children and it seems like they keep kind of quiet. Yeah. Which is crazy. And in March of 2014, David Brown at 61 years old died of natural causes in prison. Good.

Yep. And that is the story of the murder of Linda Bailey Brown. God damn. Yup. That was every which way but loose. How did I never do that? It's like my hometown murder that I remember from fucking childhood. Hometown.

That's crazy. God, that's, I mean, it was just all the bad things in one thing. He victimized every fucking woman that came near him and his family. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Young girl. I'm excited he's dead. Manipulate me too.

Manipulate it. And I mean, truly like a cult, like, you know, cult leader mentality. Yes. Yes. And really so merciless, just like really just an unrepentant pedophile, selfish, greedy. How fucking many more millions of dollars do you need? Totally. Psycho.

It's just so bananas. So let's all read the book and roll book and roll books. I'm sure there's just a ton more horrible information in there. Yeah, I bet there is. And the end and the enrol twist, which is how she explains things in that, explains things in that loving motherly way. And I think she interviews him in prison too. Interviews him.

Oh shit. I have to read that book. Or we can just watch the movie Love, Lies, and Murder. It's on YouTube. Oh shit. Two and a half hours long or something. Guys, that's it. I could download that for the plane flight.

Yeah. Hey. Hey. All right. So what's your fucking hooray? I will say this. No, yoga has gone to the waist side a bit. Totally.

But only because I've started my new swimming regimen. I was, I did it all this week. Every morning. Karen. I got up in the morning and swam. And thank you. I'm so happy for you. Thank you so much.

I know. It felt really good. I don't know. I finally put it together when we were, when we were away on art on the last tour weekend, I was like, I need, I need to do something because this, like the, the foot thing is really fucked up. All right. And I just don't feel good.

I don't like the way I look. So I want to feel better. And then I was like, I texted my dog sitter cause she stays with my dogs at the house. And I was like, do me a favor, would you just flip on that pool heater for me? Cause I was like, why do I spend the money on the thing that's actually going to be like help you and be, you know, right, right outside your door. And so I, the first morning it was pretty cold by today. When I got in it today, it was like cozy, warm.

How many laps? Cause I have a pool I can use too. How many? I put on my, I put on the stopwatch for, and I just let it go to a half an hour and just go back and forth, back and forth. And I try to do, I stop and tread water and try to do things with my legs to stretch out the muscle on the back of my leg. Cause that's the reason that, that the plantar fasciitis is, fasciitis is so bad.

So I just am trying to do a lot of leg work and treading water. But then I just do, I start off with like at least 10 laps of kind of dog paddling where I keep my head above. That's all that matters is you're moving. Yes, exactly. And it's like, and swimming is full body and you can kind of do way more. Like I should say, I can do way more than normal cause it doesn't feel so like, ugh, everything.

And you're not like, I'm sweating. You don't, you can't tell. What I love about swimming too is that you can't listen to anything. So it's kind of the zen in your head moment. It clears you out really good. And for me, like it, the, it is such a good stress reliever cause I've just been feeling as you well know, so stressed out lately and have for so long, it's been like this cumulative like two year stress that's been so hard for both of us at times.

What are you talking about? I'm just not a great couple. And gratitude. But I mean like the stress is tough and I just, if I just keep eating fucking pizza about it, it'll only go one way. And so yeah, so it's just like I, I've been doing that every morning. And then I also at one point I ordered a robe when I was getting some clothes for New York. I was like, oh, I'm also going to get a robe that's like a towel so I can just get out of

the pool and have a big thirsty robe on. Look at you. So that's my new, I still want to do yoga, but my plan is to lose cut the initial weight and then get into like getting really flexible. Whatever works for you. Yeah. I love that. Me too.

It's fun. I want to say, because this is, we're recording a Saturday night and so by Thursday, a lot of shit might have gone down in the Supreme Court. In the world. Yes. And so we don't want to seem like we're ignoring it. I just want to let everyone know. That's a very good point.

It's been a really fucking shitty week and listen, we support Dr. Ford 100% and if anyone's fucking surprised by that, you haven't listened to this podcast. There's also watching that we, we spent the entire day at work watching that testimony. It speaks for itself. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the thing is. This isn't political for us. This is a, believing a woman's fucking truth and also seeing a man's behavior and knowing

that that is indicative of something, especially like as we have all listened to one million of these stories and watched one million true crime shows, a person with that level of indignant like rage that's right there. Cause you're talking about Kavanaugh's rage, Kavanaugh's rage because from the beginning, the way he was talking about how hard it's been for him and his family, it was so, so self-obsessed. Yeah. So fucking self-serving.

He never apologized to his family. He didn't say he was like, you're doing it to my family. It's like, but what about what you did? You stepped into this limelight. You're trying to get this, you're here for this job. You're trying to get this fucking job and then this is your past. So you have an apology to make. Right.

We've all, every woman I know, including us, we've been through some shit like this. Similar to what Dr. Ford is talking about. And we know when we fucking see in a woman's eye and her voice and her story that she's being honest because it's vulnerable and terrifying, but it's important to tell the story. So yeah. And I would just like to say this too, cause there was, there's been a couple of good threats on Twitter about this. The thing that people keep missing that I think there's these people that keep arguing

like it's the calendars from 30 years ago. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what was in his yearbook. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It technically perhaps. But what we're trying to talk about is the difference between a good man and a bad man. We're trying to delineate and just decide is this person a Supreme Court justice who

can be neutral, who can make decisions, who won't bring in biases, who won't bring in secret hatreds, issues. This man has serious fucking issues with women. And you know that because of his find them, finger them, fuck them and forget them. All the shit that was in that yearbook is all there. It's all coded wording for different ways to be shitty to women. I think of the good men, you know, did they ever talk like that when they were in fucking high school?

No. They never put four Fs in his fucking. I mean, and also how lame. There's so many great men that when girls are drunk at a party, they take them home and put them to bed. And as one of these threads that I was reading on Twitter, put some Gatorade by next to their bed and say, good night. I'll see you tomorrow.

That's right. It happens. It's this is not the standard that we have to accept in fucking men at all. And by accepting this person into the highest fucking lifetime, you know, order position is telling other women that that it does not fucking matter what happens to them. And it does not matter if this if you get victimized, it doesn't matter if you in your life forever victimized. It doesn't matter.

And the only thing that matters is what what happens. These men. Yeah. Just so we are not skipping over this important thing. We're just behind. We don't know about it. Yeah. I mean, and we're still angry from last week.

It was really fucking depressing. Or maybe not. You know what my fucking array is? My friend, Jocelyn Hughes, who's this lovely gal texted me and a couple of girls and said that day, I would have texted you, but it was during the day at work and it was going to get drinks during the day. I can't handle this anymore. Does anyone want to get drinks?

Nice. So I sat around some really great gals and we talked instead of watching for a while and it was really soothing and it's nice to be, you know, as we always say, like, worry each other's allies. We are not, we are not each other's competitors. Competitors. Yeah. And so being surrounded by a bunch of rad chicks who I know to differing degrees have

all been through something like this in their lives was really great. And then I went and saw Beck at the bowl and it was really fucking great. Saw Beck at the Hollywood Bowl. Nice. Yeah. That's a that's also a good point is do things. If you're experiencing this feeling, feeling triggered by it, feeling stressed by it, feeling upset, reach out, get around people that understand what you're talking about.

Don't be around people that will argue with you. Don't don't engage or spend time with people that go, doesn't matter and this is a liberal whatever. Don't don't put yourself through it. Take care of yourself. Be around people who understand you and don't you don't have to accept anyone else's definition of what's quote unquote important or not because with those people, it's never important that a woman was raped.

It's never important that this happens all the time and that that's the culture we live in. It's never important. They do not care. Yeah. So they'll never believe women. They'll never. It doesn't matter.

It's just a certain mindset and they they're not important and you there are plenty of people you can find. They get it. That was a big episode for one that we're just trying to sneak in before we leave for tour. I know. Now we have to record two mini so let's do it and then sign 200 posters for the live shows.

We're fucking doing it. This. This is my wine. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for supporting us. We're so lucky to be here with you guys and we and we're very excited to be traveling this weekend where we are in New York right now. Really technically when this drops at the beacon tonight, the night this very night.

So what's up, New York, New York, Brooklyn and fucking Medford and Medford, Massachusetts. Can't wait to see you all. Thanks so much for listening. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis. You want cookie? Good boy.

Cookie? He nailed it. Yeah. You did good.