My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 15 - Definitely Not Episode 16

Episode Date: May 6, 2016

The theme this week is "murders from the year 2000," with Harold Shipman and the Setagay Family Murders taking the stage.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. We're recording. We're recording. Yep. A podcast. What episode of my favorite murder is this? This one's episode 15. One five, one, a one and a five. It comes after the number 14, which by the way, congratulations on picking that amazing. Oh, God. Thank you. I feel like the spirit of Prince was with me when I wrote that. You sexy mother 14 was perfect. I need, I wanted it to be an homage to the man that we lost and yet at the same time still serve no purpose for what we're trying to get

done, which is let people know what we're talking about on our podcast. Well, they really have no way of knowing and so they have to listen. It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma called my favorite murder. Welcome everybody. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. This is episode 15, which we didn't realize until five minutes ago. We thought it was episode 16 this whole time, which is why why would we both do that? Which is why this episode theme is murders that happened 16 years ago. Now makes no sense. Except I mean, I guess we could have just done millennial murders and said that we meant to do it and it was because we wanted murders that were in 2000, but we're not going to pretend that we're smarter than we are. Let's not try to cover any

of our flaws or blemishes. This is this is what makes us us. Yeah. This is we're human beings. We have no support. We don't even have one person that could go, Hey guys, nice conversation about the 16th episode. Why don't you save that for next week? This is the 15th episode. Like we've said from the very beginning, we're not experts on anything except for our own feelings. Right. Um, yeah, we're amateur sleuths with numbers and murders that have stumbled into a conversational podcast about the thing we love the most death. Do you think your anxiety over true crime is like subsided a little since this podcast started? You know, it's funny, Georgia. I don't have that much anxiety about true crime. You, you have the, when you talk about it, it's like,

uh, it seems to me to be like a thing that releases your anxiety, which I relate to, but I more have a morbid fascination that borders on, I think I might want to do this. Like that's, that's the dance that I'm dancing. He kind of a little bit. I mean, not genuinely, but in that way of like, this is an option. That's concerning to me sitting in a room alone with you. Just in that way of like, I feel like that's the genuine truth that I should state. I get it. It's like that thing of like, I could steer my car off this road right now over a bridge. Exactly. Or have you ever heard that thing where it's a very real thing? Pilots cannot look at the ground when they're flying airplanes or they'll fly the airplane into the ground. Yeah. It's called, uh, I'm

making this up completely right now. It's called something like ground hypnosis. The word hypnosis is in it, but it's basically the thing of like, if you look at it, you'll do it because your brain knows it's not supposed to. Right. I'll see you like jumping off. If you're on a tall building, you have to like not stand near the ledge because you might just fucking throw yourself over the ledge. You know, this, there was an amazing conversation that you got into on the Facebook page. This is all unwanted thoughts or dangerous thoughts. That was great. I loved that conversation. It was so fucking cool. And as I was reading it, uh, you know, I don't, I wouldn't say I suffer from that as a real, um, disorder or like something that really, uh, I have to deal with every day.

But I also kept thinking as I was reading it, I feel like that's a very human thing to have. I understand that the people that we're talking about are talking about, it's problematic and it's right in, it's interrupting their lives. The unwanted thoughts of killing that they might accidentally kill someone or all those things. It was like jumping off a, jumping off of something or, but I had it really bad. I know that it's a side effect of having anxiety because when I got, I got very convinced when my niece was like three or four that she was going to die and I was, I got very obsessive about it. My sister would be like, Oh, I dropped her off at Eileen's to go swimming and I'd be like, are you, she's going to fucking do that. There's, I was, I would get

really upset and be like, why aren't you staying there? And she's like, what's wrong with you? And I finally had to tell her, I felt so crazy. And I finally had to tell my sister, like, I'm just convinced that she's going to die. And my sister goes, Oh yeah, so am I every day. That's part of it. And then I just went, Oh, like, Oh, Oh, that's just the fear of like, I have that every day with someone, with anyone, yeah, like with Vince, I'm just like, mentally preparing myself for something happening. And it's like, just terrible and not fun. But I think that's a, I guess my only point is, I think it's a very human thing to put yourself through. Yeah. And I know it's, it's just an anxiety issue too. And I'm aware of it. So it doesn't

like take over my life. But I love the fact that that Facebook page can actually be a place where people get to talk about stuff like that. Totally. And find other people to go, you're, I'm totally with you. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, I get that. I like that a lot. Totally. And, and speak while we're on the topic, we'll just say this speaking for officially for this podcast, we only want to use our Facebook page to talk positively about what we like or what we are scared of or what we're going through. We do not endorse anybody talking shit on other podcasts on our Facebook page. It's gotten a little weird where it's become a topic in and of itself. And the bottom line is we have no interest in talking shit on other podcasts at all. So please don't do it. We only

mentioned the podcast we like because guys, there's room for everyone. Yeah. And if you don't fucking like it, don't listen to it. Don't listen to it. But certainly don't bring it over to our Facebook page to talk about because it's not, it's not something we want to endorse or even be a part of. Do you think that people who aren't on the Facebook page are sick of hearing about the wonderful, beautiful, awesome Facebook page? I'm positive they are. It's like being like, the girl at my school said, that's basically what it is. I can't wait till we're selling the t-shirts. It's so soon. Oh, that's right. Georgia has really hustled it up and she's gotten some t-shirt designs ready. And I think how soon? Hopefully in the next week, so it's going to be

a pre-order. Yes. And then they'll all get sent out in like two weeks. So if the pre-order will be open, then it'll be closed. Then it'll be open again. Then, you know, what happens after things close? They open again. They open again always. That's a cycle of life. And that's the official, my favorite murder t-shirt that we're going to have for you. First one. Very exciting. So, hey, what happened 16 years ago? And how does that relate to our 15th episode? Millennial murders. Millennial Y2K. Y2. Y2 what? Y2 murder. Now I'm thinking what I've had better luck if I had looked through 1999 murders. Because 2000 was like when I was trying to go through all of the date or all of the stuff that happened that whole year. It was

hard. And also it's like, it's weird, the news that came up. I did find a really good mass murder from a death cult. But it was in Uganda. It was the something along the lines of like the holy order of the lived by the Ten Commandments of God cult. And like over 250 people died. It was basically kind of their modern version of the Jim Jones. Yeah, Jonestown. Man, I've been looking at photos from that a lot lately. From Jonestown? Yeah. Why are they all found face down? They're all face down facing towards, I think someone posed them after they died. You do? Yeah. So everything looked uniform? It looks mellow and not a big fucking mess. I think that, you know, people stayed alive after or the or the army that that they had the local army posed everyone.

Because if you look at the photos, they're all it's almost like they are laying down with their heads facing Jim Jones is like thrown his weirdo thrown. Yeah. And they have some of them have their arms around each other. It's like very orderly. And it's so creepy. It's the creepiest. I've heard, I would say 20 seconds of that tape of him talking. Don't do that to yourself. Listen to the whole thing. You did? Oh, I've done it multiple times. Why? Because I'm so curious. Because I'm so fascinated by that one. Even the tiny moment that I listened to, I can replay in my head. It feels like verbatim. I listened to it. And I read the transcripts. And I read a bunch. There was an AMA on Reddit by a woman who was a survivor or who got out like got out a couple

months before, but her mom and brother died in there because they were high ups. So she was talking about what happened. She listened to the tape and was like, here's what, what, here's what people were saying. And here's what they meant who was saying what. It's so fascinating to me. It's really the thing, the fact that it happened in San Francisco, like close to where I grew up. And there was a bunch of people of all walks of life trying to start a utopia. I mean, that, every element of it is such an amazing, horrifying story. It just is so like, it's the classic don't go to a second location with someone named Jim Jones, you know, or a hippie, the 30 Rockton, right? Exactly. Or the scientist. I was just reading

today about how the David Miscavige's wife, Shelley Miscavige is like missing as fuck. Yep. For years. For years. And they finally put out police report for her missing persons, but there's some like compound where they keep like high ups and like just torture them constantly. In Florida? Yeah, I think so. So she's probably there. So don't go, don't say you'll go somewhere else with someone. No, don't go anywhere. Don't go anywhere. Leave your house, stay in your apartment. Um, you know, that makes me think they've got to rescind the religious tax status for Scientology. It's been proven that it's not an actual religion that it's basically a

humongous pyramid scheme. I apologize if it's your religion and you're offended right now. I don't think they don't want you to be mad at me, but you're in a cult call your dad or someone that can help your parents actually love you even if even if they're a what is it called a negator? What's it called in Scientology? You're a negative something. Yeah, you're like, you've got body Theatons and you're you're you're a shit. There's a specific word trophy. No, that was last week. Yeah. How many people evidence on the yeah, on the Twitter, Twitter feed just wrote trophy. It was making me laugh so hard. The word we kept forgetting last week. Yeah, that one, you know, what they keep. We keep sakes.

I have to apologize for I couldn't listen to last week's episode because my mic was not screwed on properly. And there were all these jiggling noises through the whole thing. And I'm fucking sorry. And I hope you guys got through it because I think it was a really good I was like so happy about the episode. I went to listen to it. And I was like, I can't even listen to this. It was a little I did listen to it. But I'm used to I mean, it's DIY baby. That's what we're doing. That's true. And compared to some that sound like they're being recorded in a can in Alaska, where I think we're a couple steps ahead in terms of that. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of wonder is podcast against the odds. In our next season, three mask men hijack a school

bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort. But the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Do you want to go first? You want me to go first? I think I think I went first last night, didn't I? Yeah, so I looked up a ton of murders and I was like kind of like this is there's not a lot of great 2000 murders that just like have a lot of

information in them. We basically painted ourselves into a corner. We totally do. We need to stop doing that. We need to stop immediately. We need to stop texting each other on Sunday and being like or like Monday. Hey, what's the topic? I don't know. What do you want the topic to be? I don't know. You mentioned this. Okay, let's do that. Yeah, stop doing that. I think we need to go back to our original gut feeling of I need to talk about this guy. I think let's try that next week or woman. Yeah, let's try that. Let's try that because I have a couple that I really want to get to that we have to be really weird and specific like topic. Yeah, we don't have to. Okay, let's do that. Nobody gives a shit. But I did find I ended up finding a really good one that I never had heard

about and I'm really excited to talk about because it's fucked up and wonderful. It's the Setagaya family murders. Okay, I don't think I've heard of that on the morning of December 31st, 2000. So I have a fucking day. I got my day away. I'm just made the cut just made the cut of under the radar in a home in Tokyo's Setagaya Ward. Mikiyo Miyazawa, who's 44, his 41 year old wife, Yasuko, their eight year old daughter Nina and six year old son Ray were found dead in their home. The son had been strangled and the other three were stabbed to death. So the killer or killers, which isn't brought up a lot, but I'm kind of I'll tell you more about that, enters through the bathroom window upstairs and goes to the son's room. He smothers the little boy

in his sleeve. How old sorry? Six year old. And then this father Mikiyo had been working in the study on the first floor. Perhaps he heard something. So he climbs the stairs where he encounters the home invader. They fight and then so the father's body is found at the bottom of the stairwell stabbed to death. The killer had brought a sashimi knife with him, which is a very long, thin blade. They're really fucking sharp. And the killer and father fought at the staircase and the killer damaged his knife in the process. The killer then attacked the mother, Yasuko and their eight year old daughter Nina. It's Nina with two eyes. So I don't know if that's supposed to be something else. So they were sleeping together in the third floor loft of the

house. He couldn't finish the job because his knife was broken. So he leaves and goes to the kitchen to get another knife. And it's the family's first aid kit was found open at the seam with some of the daughter's blood on the bandages. So it seems like when the killer walked out of the room, they thought like maybe he was leaving. And so the mom starts bandaging up the, um, the wounds. But he comes off to finish them off. But he has to cover their faces with cloth. Because while he's killing them, he can't look at them. And yet he, he, it's not a simple murder. He like, it's a pretty brutal murder. So it's not like he couldn't look at them just to kill them really quickly, which is weird. That's super weird. And it's

almost like it's personal. Like he must know them or something. One would think. Anyways, or he doesn't want them to look at him. Um, let's see, which means he's might be having feelings, which means he's probably not a psychopath. Right. Maybe. But, right. But then, then, okay. He continued to stab their bodies after they were dead. Okay. Based on their stomach contents, the time of the family's death was placed at 1130 PM. And the murderer was injured at some point because his blood was found on bandages. But after killing the family, he didn't leave. He stayed there overnight. He ate contents from the fridge. Um, and he wandered around the house eating popsicles, like discarding them in the

trash can in the study and the two other rappers in the kitchen. So he was just chilling out. He was literally just chilling out. He spent time. He went logged on to their, their computer between midnight and 1 AM. He browsed the internet for five minutes. Where'd he go? Buzzfeed? Well, actually, they know he went to the theater company, which was a bookmark by the, by the wife. Um, he tried to buy tickets. And his, his, his fingerprints was found on the mouse, but not the keyboard. So maybe he was just like clicking things that were already on the computer. What is it? What is he thinking? No, if fingerprints can only be on keyboards, but maybe he was clicking with his palm on the

mouth. So weird. The thought process of this person doesn't make any sense. Okay. Then again, sometime in the morning, he used the computer for four minutes. He visited the webpage of the father's company and the, um, the daughter's school or the son's school. And he killed the power to the computer by pulling out the court, which he, he took with him from the crime scene. Um, in the living room credit cards, bank books, driver's license and other personal, uh, identifying information were spread out as if the suspect had been sorting through them. In the second floor bathtub, more scattered papers were located, such as receipts, item from the mother's school, towels, sanitary products used to stop his bleeding and other garbage. So he's got a maxi pad on his

stabbed arm or whatever. Okay. Also, and this is information that I don't know that he used the restroom and didn't flush. So they have like, they know like his meal, but that he ate before he came. Sorry. Which is like, dude, these people in Tokyo were like hardcore detectives. Yeah. Oh, that's terrible. Whose department? Who gets that job? That sucks. Yeah. Someone very low on the totem pole. Okay. At some point, the killers are gonna nap on the couch in the living room. So he must have known like no one was coming home. No one was expecting them. No one was like going to come over like, because the mother of the mother of the wife lived next door and then like attached house. So he, how did he know she wasn't going to come over and like hang out?

Do you think he didn't know she was there or and he's just like, I mean, because possibly murder an entire family, you probably are crazy in some way. So it would make sense that you're just like, I'll be crazy and chill out and be a weirdo. Yeah. No one will even come over. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sometime around 10. Okay. Yeah. No, I agree. This is so weird. This case is really interesting because there are so many clues that I'll get to that it should be, it should be solved or there should be a really specific profile of this killer. But I think all the clues are so weird that they, that they sully that they make it even harder. Right. So around 1038 to 1045, the family computer received an email that had a required password to open, which means the family

was still alive by them. And then, but they must have been killed after midnight, before midnight. But didn't you say he broke in in the morning? No. Oh, okay. Sorry. He broke in. I thought it was like an all day torture thing. No, no, no. He broke in in the evening. Okay. Good. Good. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Really? Right. Okay. So here's what's going on. There's a skate park right across the street that just opened up from the family's house, and they were annoyed by the noise. And they had already been planning to move because of it. And a witness report seeing Mckio arguing with the skateboarders a few days before the crime. And another witness reported seeing the father arguing with a bike gang member or the bike gang crew. So he left behind a bunch

of clothing that, that looked like a skater would wear. And the police were also able to determine the cologne the suspect wore, which is a favorite brand of skateboarders. What? I know. Weird, right? So speaking of the stuff he left behind, let's see. In the pocket. Okay. So trace amounts of a red fluorescent agent were found on the suspect's clothing, because he left all of his clothing behind. He folded up nearly his clothing and left it behind, which is like, and they were able to find so much information from that that it seems like a set up that it seems like a set up. They found they were able to find sand in his pockets that they were able to conclude that it was from the Edwards Air Force place in Las Vegas, Nevada. Like that's how specific they were able to get,

which has led a lot of people to think that maybe his this guy was a skateboarder and his parents were working in the military. They also did DNA testing on him. And we're able to tell that he's mixed race with the mother of Southern European descent and a father most likely Korean. So he's mixed race. So he could easily be from outside the country, right? So maybe his parents, maybe his father or his mother worked on the Air Force base, transferred to Japan, which means his fingerprints wouldn't be on file, because normally if you come to, if you come to Tokyo or you come to Japan, your fingerprints are taken. Right. Anyways, so he wouldn't be if he was just a kid of the military. Yeah. Okay. So this red fluorescent agent found on the suspect's clothing indicates

that the suspect was involved in stage prop design, where this particular chemical is used. And it's not something the family had or would have had around. And the trace amounts were also found in the garage. However, there was no indication the suspect had ever been in the garage. This led investigators to believe that the suspect may have had contact with the family prior to the killing. And remember that he went to a page that she had to buy tickets for tickets for a theater company. So maybe she was the mom was involved in the theater company. Or maybe that killer was contending in also continuing to try to set up a person right to indicate because you left the clothes there with that agent. Then you buy those tickets,

you're definitely pointing an arrow. Or maybe he was stalking them and stalking her. Maybe he had broken into the house before that the incident got in the garage somehow, like kind of kind of profiling the house to see how he could get in there. An old jacket was missing and all of the family's happy new year greeting cards were missing. They were like gone, which is so weird. Someone suggested maybe they had cash in them, but they were saying that they're like happy New Year's cards, which are like from friends. You wouldn't send your money. Unless that's a tradition or something. Right. So some people say it looks like the work of a professional killer because how easily he killed the children was fine doing that.

It's probably not his clothing since he left it behind. And then maybe he wanted to look like a skater just to kind of throw them off and be like, leave them in a different direction. Yeah. You know, that's just, it's just so many random things. And also, oh, they also knew that the clothes were washed in hard water, not soft water. So they hadn't been washed in Japan. Oh, wow. I know. What a weird little detail. I wonder does Vegas have hard water? Right. Probably right. Yeah. It's just, it's just, it's frustrating that they can do so many little elements about these things, but yet not have a psychological profile or, you know, just be a little more specific as to who it could be.

Like they have an age range. So that's probably somewhere between the 20s and 30s. Also, why was the little boy strangled and everybody else stabbed? Yeah. Was that purely just convenience of, you know, wherever his knife was or, I mean, like it's fascinating. Like what, what the difference is, what the details actually point to. That's why I can't stand ones that haven't been solved because it doesn't teach you anything. That's why I love them because there's, because there's so, it's such a bigger, it's just a bigger, I feel like I'm let down when I'm like, Oh, it's just some shithead. Yeah. Psychopath. It's like not even worth anything. He should have just killed himself

rather than like, there's this mysterious guy in the world. It could be a big deal. It could be this crazy coverup. Like all the possibilities are so much better than what the reality really, reality is, which is that it's some fucking asshole. Well, also because you use your imagination, then you basically write a mystery story of like, it's a person that, that worked with the wife at the theater company, dressed up like a skateboarder. Cause she had told him there was a skate park and he knew that there was issues and there was problems and that's the perfect, totally decoy. Oh, maybe he just came to murder the father because the father was, you know, a business associate of his and he needed, you know, and just the family were witnesses. And so he had

to kill them all and just kind of freaked out and stayed in the house until he figured out what to do. But so that points away from a professional in any way. So does, I think so does like eating popsicles and all that shit and shitting because it makes me think of Mike from Breaking Bad and how when he goes to do stuff, like you've seen all that right where he, he bought like the, the, that was actually from Better Call Saul, but a character on there buys, he knows he's being followed and he wants to make sure nobody gets the jump on him. So he buys a welcome mat and underneath it, he puts that ditto paper. So he knew when people were standing at his front door. That is awesome. It was like stuff like that. I love that. Or when they put a light, a small like

watch underneath the wheel of the car and when it runs over there, that the time stops of when that person left. Yes. Didn't they do that in that too? Probably. That was probably in Breaking Bad, right? Some, yeah, some show I saw where they was like a watch soft at this time. That's what time they left. I had a roommate in San Francisco that used to keep his pot in a drawer in his room and when I would go to steal it while he was at work, one time I found a hairling across the top. So I pulled, picked the hair up and I went in and took the pot and as much pot as I saw fit that I deserved, didn't pay for wasn't mine. Shut the drawer and put the hair back. Yeah. So he could, and then he's a stoner. So it was just paranoid to accuse me of taking his pot. If you

if you close the door, yeah, if you put a little saliva on the hair and stick it to the thing or a little tape on there, the hair will break when you open the door. Yeah. Love that trick. Love that trick. Never used it, but just the idea that he and I were involved in those kind that level of spy versus spy stoner bullshit was super enjoyable. It made me, it makes me want to ask all these questions, but I don't want to put you in a bad position. But it makes me go like, are serial killers common in Japan or rare? Like, do we know anything culturally? Because that's like, that I feel like we never hear about. It's like, every once in a while you hear about that terrible girl, the girl that got tortured for their 40 days by this awful fucking high

schoolers. Or there was one guy that killed children that they caught recently or whatever. But you it's not like here where they're fucking coming out of everybody's ass all the time. Or it's a lot of gang gang killings. Right. Yeah, it doesn't seem like they're or like mass killings, but not as many like serial. No, people not sneaking in your window and killing an entire family. And someone hypothesized that that's why the cops have a lot of forensic capabilities, but not a lot of problems, like because they don't deal with a lot of murders like this. So they couldn't really put it together as to what would happen. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And they say the cops are, I don't know if it's that way anymore. But for a long time, the cops in Japan were just

completely in bed with the yeah, what is it? Yeah. Azuka. Don't bring it up if you don't know Karen. Don't mention it if you don't know the word. Listen, this is an uncut unedited podcast. We don't want to look smart for you. We're in your face with our ignorance. Yeah, it doesn't matter. No, it doesn't. So that's my yeah, the that's a good one. Setagaya family murders. And it and how long ago did it happen? 16 years ago. That's right. And there's been there as there's been 2,046 hundred officers involved in the case to date, which seems like too many. Yeah, and they've received more than 16,000 pieces of information from the public. Get the killer remains at large. What's that? What's that old lady next door? No,

that's what I want to know that her daughter is her entire family. I mean, she must. And I guess I don't know, but the house is left the same like left. Oh, like nobody's moved in there. There's your horror movie. Sure. People go there every year and place flowers on the date and stuff. It's sad. It was like a sweet looking little family. Of course. I mean, they would deserve it if they were not sweet looking, but they just look very normal. Right? It's really sad. What happened? Yeah, but the fact that the guy was comfortable staying in a house with murdered people means he had to be a little bit crazy because they were saying like, you know, if you kill someone for the first time, you like don't want to be in the house with the fucking dead

bodies anymore. It's creepy. Yeah, it's creepy. So maybe he murdered children for Christ's sake. Wow. Yeah. Well, turn yourself in please. Yeah. You're listening. We're huge in Japan. So we know that this has a long reach. And we have a lot of influence over murders. And we have a lot of influence in general. Everyone knows that we'll get tell them we'll give them a free shirt if he comes in. You don't have to wear your dumb army brat clothes anymore. No, I mean, here's the thing I know about skateboarders. They're massively chill. They don't murder families on the whole. So the idea that you were trying to set up someone from a culture that's all about hanging and just being kind of cool with everybody

is a mistake. Yeah, skater boy, in my opinion. Yeah. My murder is like the one you talked about of a boring person. That's just some guy when you find out you go this schlub. But he's kind of like the height of that, which I think is really fascinating. Every time I've seen him on your 20 20 or your 48 hours or your 28 hours, the combo program a little longer, a little longer day, 28 hours, it's a little bit longer of a day. It's a so much murder that we have to extend the day for hours. So mine and a lot of people have talked about this on the Facebook page. Sorry to mention it again, but it's Dr. Harold Shipman, who was a GP in England. Oh, yes. He had, I think it was it's near Manchester. I'm

not going to talk about England like I know anymore because did you see the posts about how wrong I was about the accent from Happy Valley? Oh, it was hilarious how wrong I was. No, it sounded right to me. Of course it did. And the thing I forget is there's people in other countries listening to me bullshit. People keep saying to us, when are you going to cover Australian? Like Australia's got some like gnarly murders, gnarly, good ones, crazy. We've got to do a couple of Australia Australia episodes at some point. Well, we did touch on it with your guy, the mystery man that they think they've solved. Did you see that article? What's that guy's called the your guy? I know, I know. Forget it. Let's forget it.

So my guy, Dr. Harold Shipman. I mentioned I have anxiety and I don't sleep at night. I don't sleep at night. Have I mentioned that this is just a podcast and if you need to know factual shit, go ahead and log on to CNN.com or maybe don't. Okay, so Dr. Harold Shipman is a doctor. He studied at the Leeds School of Medicine. He graduated in 1970. And the interesting thing about him to note is that his mother, who he was very close to, had lung cancer. And so she used to have morphine administered to her in the end stages. Lung cancer is a terrible fucking disease and it's very bad in the end. And she died because a doctor gave her morphine and basically it ended up killing her.

A purpose or an accident? Well, I just think it was like near the end. You know, maybe it was just like one too many. I don't know the details, but he witnessed the pain go away even though she had this terrible lung cancer. And he watched doctors come and basically take it away and whatever. And then she died like in one of those moments and he was there for all of that and it was when he was 17. So it's kind of a crucial time. So this is a person who is smart enough to become a doctor but who goes for this incredibly traumatic experience growing up. So what the fuck was that? I don't know. It just sounded like the wind went through your hallway. A little scary. A little bit. There was some weird noise just

now in my house. It was kind of crunchy sounding. It was crunchy. Also, the other day, just off topic, I was standing in my kitchen. I had just gotten some water and I was just standing in kitchen drinking water and the dog was standing there with me. And then one of the cabinet doors just closed. It was probably because I, well, mine are the kind where it's like open or closed. So I think I probably had left it open just enough so that it was still open but closed itself. But it was long enough that it was literally like four minutes had passed. So I forgot that I'd, I forgot that I'd even opened it. And my dog, it was the kind of thing where my dog looked at me like, what the fuck? And that scared me. Instead of just it being no big deal, she

like looked around like what just happened. I'm so scared right now that something's gonna come flying out of my fucking. Well, we're here together. And then we'll record it and it'll, it'll get, it'll be really popular. It'll be huge. People would love to hear that. Yeah. What a way to go. Okay. So this is what I love. He goes to medical school. He graduates in 1970. In 1975. So five years later, he's, he's off on his way of becoming a doctor. He gets caught for, forging demoral prescriptions. And he gets fined 600 pounds. He goes to rehab in New York. And don't know where that is. Won't talk about where it is. Then he ends up working at Donnie Brooke Medical Center and Hyde, which is near Manchester. All of this is off Wikipedia. I

don't know it factually in my own head. So he basically starts working at this place in 1977. And he, uh, he works there throughout the eighties. And then he starts his own surgery in 1993. He's a respected member of the community. Uh, he's just your standard, awesome doctor until 1998. When Deborah Massey from Frank Massey and son's funeral parlor goes to the corner and says, we're getting a lot of deaths from Dr. Shipman's patients. And there's a lot of cremation forms that he's the only person that has to sign it. Like, come on, man. Yeah. Um, so, or maybe they, I'm sorry, they, the funeral home needs to counter sign the cremation form. But that's when she notices and, uh, ends up going to another doctor and being like, here's the thing. There's all

these old ladies. Red flag. No optopsies. Yeah. Going straight to cremation. Yeah. It's all from good old Dr. Shipman down the street. Yeah. Maybe somebody should look into this. Yeah. And she's going to end up dead. Isn't she? Uh, no, I didn't, not that I know of, but it could be. Um, not according to Wikipedia. In my wildest imagination, this bench, she had a needle in her neck that night cremated. Um, so they start the Shipman report. They start to look into it in the police department. But of course, what do they do? What do they always do? They assign it to inexperienced cops. So they don't really find any serious problems. It's all kind of like, well, we can't prove anything. It's that old thing. And so, uh, everyone

trusts a doctor. It's a doctor. He's a beard. He looks so plain. He's totally the person that you would see waiting for the bus and never look at twice. I didn't know a lot of the story, but I've seen his photo and he looks just like, like, he looks like your, your stepdad. Exactly. Yes. And he ruins it because he isn't exciting and he didn't do, he didn't do these. He's one of the, I think they say that he's like the biggest serial killer there is because of the numbers. They just can't prove the numbers. But like, so they prove three for sure. So he went, you know, he, he went to jail, ended up hanging himself because, you know, of all of it. But then once they start digging into it and they do what they call the Shipman report, they, they, um,

assign people to look into all of the people that he has treated, all of the people that have died and were cremated. And it's basically a majority of elderly women who up until that point were in perfectly fine health. They didn't go in with like long-term illnesses that he helped them get out of. He was just like, it wasn't like Kovorkian. It wasn't an unofficial Kovorkian. It was an old lady who would go to Dr. Shipman because she'd be like, these corns on my feet or whatever, because he was a GP, which here means general practice means like you go to them for whatever. I have a sore throat. I think I got the flu and I'm old. We have to be careful. Sounds good. Sounds good. Fucking. But in his mind was he like, I'm getting, I'm helping you not have to ever go

through this. Like in his, or is he just enjoying? Well, he, I'm positively enjoyed it because what that is as you basically are becoming the angel of death. So, and apparently that's a very common thing in doctors is they get the God complex where they can save your life and in the healthy, normal ones, which is hopefully the majority. I almost immediately said majority, which who knows. They're all about saving and doing no harm and, and they get all their joy and power from saving you. But there are the ones and it happens, you know, it happens to nurses a lot too. Where they get the joy from deciding that it's time for you to go. And you can see where the logic would be if his mother was suffered with lung cancer and he watched somebody give her

morphine and kind of like make it all go away. His, you could see the logic behind it's an old lady. She's living maybe once he gets to know them. I'm not sure the details, but like that he basically decides like you should, we're going to wrap this up for you. I want to know his mindset. I really want to read his manifesto, which sounds like he's the kind of person who would write one. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm just saying if you have like, yeah, like I'm so curious about his mindset, if he was being like malicious or if he thought he was like, it's doing something good. Well, I think, I think he thought he was doing good. I did see a want a murder show on this on on Dr. Shipman. And I do remember being bored while I was watching

it. Because once I got the fact that basically he would, it would be people who were in fine health, elderly ladies, he also was suspected of causing the death of a four year old child in the early days. So there could have been like, it could be that thing where that was a mistake, but then what he realized was he could have the joy of having that same thrill of killing someone, but, but cover it so perfectly. It sounds a little like munchausen by proxy, doesn't it? Yes. Yes. But he's not getting empathy or sympathy. Yeah. He's getting power. It's probably also getting praise in a way that's like, I don't like, there's something about it too, where it's like, Oh, thank you, doctor, for everything you tried to do. And you, you know, yeah, that kind of thing.

Yes. And maybe it's the, what I think is kind of interesting is it's like, so when you're a doctor, you are the elite. People can be in the way communities are based. It's like, you're the one person that can help. You're the person everybody goes to. You're, you, you automatically are the person people trust because you do all this good and you're upstanding in the community or whatever. So when like a taxi driver goes and says, Hey, guess what? My mother died and she shouldn't have because she had all this stuff. We knew and she wasn't sick and they go, the cops go, okay, sir, which is literally what happened. It was there, there was a guy who went to the cops first that, that, that's the reason they started that first inquiry. And then they were like,

yeah, there's nothing we can prove. And we don't, and basically we don't believe you. You're just a working stiff, your blue collar guy. And this is, this is our doctor. And it's going to ruin his reputation if you even look into it. Right. You know what I mean? Like if you have to start asking questions of other patients, you have to like subpoena his records, it's going to make, if it's not true, it's going to make him look really bad. And he could probably sue for defamation, maybe probably making that up. Well, everything else facts on our podcast. But also it's that thing. And you know those when you see the doctors who kill their wives and they keep that mask on after they're convicted in jail, they keep it on forever because they have already turned into

this person that's convinced they've done all the work of this is what I'm doing. This is why it's right. Or this is why I get to do whatever I want. So you would have to, you would then be facing a person who it just made me think of like a forensic files that I saw that was in Canada about a doctor who shot this woman up with like basically the stuff they give you when you're having a baby so that you just don't feel anything. And you go paralyzed and you kind of are numb and he rapes her. And, and then like, and then thinks that she's going to forget about it is basically a kind of a row hypno cocktail thing. And then she accuses him of it. Everyone says you're crazy bitch, you're crazy bitch. They do blood tests. It's the blood doesn't match the DNA doesn't

match your crazy bitch, your crazy bitch for years. They find out he had he had injected. Remember that I do. And the guy with his someone else's blood or what was yes, a one of his patients. So he's setting up another patient to defend himself against a rape of a first patient. And he had the blood injected into his arms. So they keep going, you're the crazy bitch. So basically you're taking on when you take on a doctor, they're so much hot. They truly are the elite. And if you are just a waitress or you're just a cab driver, you're automatically wrong or prostitute or God forbid a prostitute. You know what drives me? You know what I'm a sex worker, sex worker, excuse me. Yeah. In a perfect world, like when, when, when you watch these video,

these, these 40, these 28 hour videos of like, you know, the father did this, the husband did this, and they're in court. And then the jury says guilty or not guilty, whatever. When they say guilty, I feel like I wish that the guy would have to go, damn it, you got me. Like I wish they would have to admit it if they did or not. That's exactly right. You got me. Yeah. Cause I just want to know like, is that the wrong? There's always that like, what if the wrong person's in prison? But I just want, I want to know and you're in fucking asshole. So if you did it, like just own up to it so everyone can move the fuck on. I know. Yeah, I got me. I don't know what that would that be. You're like, you just like starts laughing. State or country require. Okay, you're right.

This is over. Shakes the prosecutor's hand. You know what? Fair play. Yeah. Fair play. You got me. I totally slowly killed a bunch of undeserving people. Oh, and his numbers just to get one second. Dr. Shipman. Where was it? 459 people died while under his care. They just can't prove how many were victims and how many he was just a doctor that certified his death and that it didn't have anything to do with. I wonder how many is like standard. It can't be more than a hundred. It can't be. How many people die in a year in a small town? Totally. I don't know if it's small. Is it a year? I don't know how big it is. Wait, 400 is a year? No, no, no, no. No, that was over. It that's like a, uh, almost a 30 year span. Oh,

71 to 98. Wow. And that they, they think the probable number of definite victims between 71 and 98 is 250, but 459 people died in that amount of time. They just can't, they can't prove. I have a question, important question. Where does the number two, where does the year 2000 fit into all this? Because guess what? I think he got arrested in 2000. Okay. Okay. Oh, that's right. Because they started the lady from Frank Massey and son's funeral home. And her name is Deborah Massey. So I want to go, are you the unfortunate daughter that works at Frank Massey and son's funeral home? That sucks. Sorry, Deborah. And, and also high five for, for getting this whole thing going. But yeah, I think she went that, she went to them in 98.

And so basically he ended up getting looked into and arrested in 2000. I'm going to accept that. I swear to God. I'm not going to make you start over. Please, please don't because this was, this was borderline homulca level lack of information. Yeah. I found a lot of those. There was one of a girl who was riding her bike and just disappeared and like all these people copped to it, but they didn't. And it was like just fucking sad for a 2000. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like the only other one that I found that was like, that interesting to me. I feel like people thought that year was going to be way, way worse than it actually turned out to be. Well, I mean, you're just under the fucking horizon of 9 11. So that's right. You know,

what was interesting going through and I don't have the education to even like really theorize, but I kept seeing all these things where they were like nuclear secrets leaked. There are all these things in the year 2000 that I just kept going. I wonder if this has anything to do with the 9 11. You know what I mean? Here and there, there would just be a thing, nuclear secrets. There was something bombing somewhere. Yeah. Murder of all these people in this thing. Yeah. Tide man. What if in this podcast, we fucking uncour some crazy government secrets and then we're on the run? Yes. Oh my God. And we only like all the like Facebook group people like were there like like hide us out. They're like create an underground railroad across the country

and throughout the world now that we know that there are people in a whales listening and the only way that the government knows that we were there is that they have all T shirts. Giving them all free T shirts for couch surfing. We have to make new T shirts for when we're on the run. Totally. It'll be like the 2016 tour. It'll show like what cities we're going to be in, which is like a bad idea. That's right. We have to like keep changing the cities on the back of the shirt around. Keep adding them. And then get arrested. Just no not happening. Canceled. Oh, which reminds me. I am going to we are going to do a live show in the next three months. I just have to confirm it. But everybody in the Los Angeles area or maybe even northern

California if you want to make a day trip or something. We my friend April and I AP April Richardson who did the Go Bayside podcast that there are people that listen to this podcast we're fans of positive podcasting. We have a show at the improv lab right now that's great. It's a great room and it's super fun. And so that's where I'll plug this out of it. Oh, yeah, that's right. And we're going to do it May 11th, which is my birthday. Next Wednesday, May 11th. That's a great show and a really good lineup. It's a 10 o'clock at the improv lab. If you want to be there, please come. We would love to have you. It's called business class. And I will tweet on my Twitter account about it. Tweet on ours too. Should I do that? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah,

I'll do ours too. This is we're not this is a place of shameless self promotion. Right. That's what we're all about. Yeah. But anyway, so we're going to try we're ranging that right now with um, I'm so excited that I can't wait. I think it could be super cool. I can't wait for a live show. Yeah. We'll bring t-shirts and sell them at for double double the cost. That's so good. We'll have a fucking merch table, merch table. Maybe we'll try to get Vince and Mamma Carthy from We Watch Wrestling podcast to come and be our merch guys. And then there's all kinds of crossover listeners. Totally. Someone said that they, that their boyfriend yelled to them from the other room. Hey, the girl from your murder podcast is on my wrestling podcast right now. So like randomly

come home when they're recording and they'll ask me what my favorite wrestler is. Yes. Just like Vince did that time. Yeah. When Vince came home. Yeah. I love it. I have to go to therapy now. Oh, yeah. I scheduled therapy after this podcast because I think that's good timing. It probably is. Um, all right. Well, then we'll save. You know what we should do is do a mini with with emails because we've got a bunch of great emails. Definitely. That's what I was just checking to see if we're time for. But do you want to read one real quick? Should I? I did Google or I searched in our email 2000 just to be like, does anyone have a good 2000 story? Oh, yeah. And they were, but like none of them I could. Let's see. Um,

let's see what people wrote. I said, uh, tell us on the podcast on the Facebook group, tell us your favorite. Um, what? No, no, I'm just laughing that of the mistake we made. Victoria M said, aren't we only up to episode 15? Yes, Victoria, you are correct. Oh, Victoria was on it. Thank you Victoria for paying attention. Someone said you've got a Columbine 911 sandwich. Hmm. Hard to choose. I don't know what that means. Oh, because those are that those happened then? Yeah, I didn't realize Scott Peterson was going on. Shit. We really missed the boat. Yeah. You know what we do? We do the underground. We do the behind the scenes. We do the,

we do the cases no one's talking about. Right. Or everyone's talking about. Um, Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. Let's do an episode of emails and, and stuff. Yeah, that's a good idea. Okay. Do you want me to read this one though? This is from Sam and that the title of is it my, the title of it is my grandma and Albert Fish. Hell yeah. Right. Hey ladies. I just finished listening to the Cannibal episode, which my dad and I listened to in the car to and from getting some groceries. After you started introducing Fish's story, my dad turns to me and says, you know, your grandma and our sister were baby sat by Albert Fish. Are you kidding me? To which I responded shut your mouth, but he was totally

serious and is surprised. I don't remember my grandma talking about, about it when I was much younger. He says they lived next door to him in this same apartment building. What the shit? My grandma, Joan was born in 1931 in Brooklyn and the Wikipedia says Fish was apprehended in 1934. So I doubt she would have remembered much, but her sister Doris is a couple years older. And it's feasible that she would remember this little old man read super insane, disturbed and terrifying creature. Unfortunately, my grandma died a few years ago. And so I've never, and I've never actually met Doris. So I can't back up any of this with face to face memories. But my dad isn't one to make up creepy stories. And I only have third hand info,

but I had to share it with you on the chance it might be true. You know what? We're all about that. It's true. It is true. I'm going to go on record. It's true. Because the joy of it. Wow. The joy of it. Can you imagine? Sorry, this is the end. Can you imagine finding out that the neighbor you'd been depending on to watch your kids while you were at work was America's, America's boogeyman? Can you, I just don't think of a time in my life when I would leave my baby with an old man like no matter for any reason, a he'll drop the baby. Yeah. And then like worst case scenario, he'll eat the baby. Yeah. Although that, I really do think Albert Fish is that thing. He was unimaginable to people up until that point. Unimaginable. That's true. That an old man would be

that awful in every way. People still kind of trust old people a little too much. I feel like when I say, oh, look at that. Like cute, sweet old man. I'm like, well, he pedophiles get old. That's exact. Oh, man. Not sure. Nazis get old. They like, like really mean bitches who are like the mean people. They get old. They live the longest. It seems like everyone gets old, including pedophiles and murderers. So don't don't fuck. Don't suffer that shit. I feel like it's insulting to old people to immediately assume that they're sweet and fucking well intentioned. That's right. You know, by the time you're old, you're either completely evil or an American hero. And that's pretty much it. Pick one. The we the week have been weeded out.

Or they've been killed by Dr. Shipman. Calm British Dr. Shipman. Who can you imagine? He was just like, yes, put your foot up on my knee and we'll look at your corns, tea or anything. Oh, goodbye. Goodbye. Good night. Good night. The thing is to trust no one except the people who are like clearly displaying their craziness. That's right. Right? Yeah. Because everyone's crazy. So the people who are hiding the most, the wellest, the wellest. Thank you. You are the craziest. Look at us. We have a fucking podcast talking about our crazy guys. It isn't the worst thing in the world.

You can be crazy. Just be a little lighthearted about it. Yeah. I think that's I think that's the point. Is that the point? Absolutely. Maybe you don't have to take needles and put them under your skin because you're crazy the way Albert fished it, right? Was it filled with needles? Yes. It's penis. Really? Yes. God, that guy was intense. Yeah. They found a bunch of needles up there. I mean, Eurythra. Dude, take a walk around the block. Breathe deeply. Eurythra would have helped in meditation. Yeah, that's right. Transcendental Meditation. Yeah, probably. It probably would have. Clear your mind of those needle thoughts. Clear your Eurythra of those needle thoughts. Mr. Fish. Right. Should we shut this one down? Yeah, definitely. It definitely

should. Well, thanks. We're looking forward to episode 16 next week. We'll talk about 15 of the best murders ever. I love it. Thanks for listening. We're at my favorite murder everywhere and tell the iTunes how much you like us and rate and review and subscribe. And thanks for listening. We appreciate your support. Yeah. And stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye.