My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 198 - Live at the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre in Dublin

Episode Date: November 29, 2019

Karen and Georgia cover Dorcas ‘Darkey’ Kelly and ‘Lying Eyes’ Sharon Collins. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is exactly right. in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Interac. Interac has a range of tools to help your business grow. Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified. Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac eTransfer for Business.

Or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus, your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac. We geek out on your business. Learn how at interact.ca slash forbusiness. Terms and conditions apply. What's up, Dublin? Yeah. Night two.

Yeah. Amazing. Wow. You guys are so loud. Thank you. It's the best. It's the best. It's the best hearing loss I've ever had. Oh, my God.

We love to be screamed at. That's right. The public venue. Directly. Yes. Thank you for being here. What an exciting time. What?

What am I talking about? It's jet lag season for us. I slept in so late this morning. I was like, what day is it? It's very extravagant. That's true. We've been to a couple places, and we've had so much fun. And not seeing a single vegetable.

Oh, my God. You fucking hate lettuce here. It's crazy. Julia, please talk briefly about your Caesar salad. I would love to. Last night I ordered a Caesar salad to try to be like somewhat healthy. And it was just a pile of bacon. And like resting gently on some like what looked like lettuce-ish.

And I ate it. It was great. I wasn't mad at it at all. In your food diary, you write, one Caesar salad, no dressing. Yeah. It's the thought that counts, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

So I'm healthy. No one's mad about it. Not at all. You're like, well, the whole country made me stop eating vegetables. I tried my best. But then we, today, Vince and I walked around and we took 5,000 steps. So I think I made up for the bacon by stepping. Half those steps were to pubs.

Where then you got, you made back up for that stepping by eating toasties. Want to see what I had for breakfast? Would you please show me? Why wouldn't you? Why not? Yay. Oh. Shit.

Yep. Yes. We went to Grogan's Pub. The place was fucking legit. Like, the bartender had jokes and jokes. He was so funny. It was amazing. And then they're all funny. I know. I swear to God, every last fucking one of them. It's so irritating.

It's so, I mean, it makes me proud. I'm Irish American. So it kind of doesn't count as much. I'm not trying to get you to clap for me. We have a lame aspect to it. Here, though, everyone is like, every person we meet has a little thing to say on the side of their mouth. It's just the most entertaining. It was so good. Okay, wait. What time of the morning was this? Well, I woke up at 11.

So by morning, I mean like noon. Okay, but still. Yeah, it was good. You got your iron in that Guinness. That's right. Pregnant mothers love it. Sorry, you want to keep talking about it? Yes, I do.

That toasty looked amazing. What's in there? Ham and cheese? Yeah, it's a ham and cheese toasty. I don't know where it went. That's fine. Okay. We all remember it in our mind's eye.

That's right. So good. Yeah, and we walked around, and I got some pseudo cream. Because that's the stuff you put on wounds. Okay. Because, so we like to stay in pretty okay hotels, like three to four stars, you know. I mean, no brag. We're not like, we're not posh, but we're not like trying to, you know, I don't know.

Save money. Yeah. So the first night when we were in Manchester, I roll over in bed and just opened a wound on the sheets. They were not thread count high. Not an Egyptian sheet. No. And I bl thread count high. Not an Egyptian sheet. No, and I bled. Yeah, that's serious. That's serious.

It's like you fell down and scraped your knee, but on a sheet in bed. At like a four-star hotel. So they'll be hearing from me and Yelp. Now tell me about this pseudo cream everyone's so excited about, because it sounds like, hold on does that mean

it's not really cream? If we were to break it down. Pseudoscience. Sounds a little pseudoscience-y to me. I don't know, I read one thing about it and then bought every single person I know a bottle, a jar of it including you last time over here.

Oh is it that stuff? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm on board. Yeah. And I don't even know if it works, but I'm just like head to toe on it. Before you go to bed at night, you're just like, I can't have the she thing happen again. Pseudo cream, help me. What's up with you? Not much. Stayed in the room all day. That's what I like to do. When I'm on tour, people are like, oh my God, that's amazing. You get to go to Dublin. I'm like, I know.

It's so great. Then I'm just standing at the window like a fucking psycho. Look at all the people passing by. Oh, uh, by the way, this is the True Crime Comedy Podcast, My Favorite Murder. Thank you. This is Karen Kilgareff. This is Georgia Hartstark. Thanks.

We're so proud to be here with you tonight. We are. We actually should call it My Favorite Murder. So that they understand what we're talking about. Stupid. I feel like I want to tell you guys about how we saw a fox last night but I don't think it's that interesting to you but to us it was like

Georgia screamed screamed in the car screamed there's a fox on the street it's very exciting and then Brendan our driver was just like you don't want any part of that you don't want to get near any of those It's very exciting. And then Brendan, our driver, was just like, uh, no.

You don't want any part of that. You don't want to get near any of those. We're like, there's a fox, though. Oh, they eat garbage. So don't look to it at all. I wanted to look up what, like, fox, um, you know, spirit guides meant.

You know, like, oh, we're seeing a fox on the road. That must mean we're wily and use our wits or whatever. And then I was like, I didn't even see it. I just heard her scream. You didn't? I didn't see it at all. I've taken to not wearing my glasses ever. So when things happen around me, I'm like, well, I'm not a part of this.

I'll just keep moving along. Don't get involved, I say. Tell them about your... Let's tell them both about our pockets. Pockets! Thank you. We realized...

Oh, yes. I might as well just tell them. I put my dress on tonight here at the theater and pulled out a little bag of weed someone gave me at the meet and greet last night. She went right up and then whispered in my ear. She's like, here, take this. You can smoke it at your hotel and you can have

the best time. It's not as good as your Cali stuff, but it'll get you. And I was just like, oh my god, thank you. Put it in my pocket and entirely forgot about it. I know. It would have been nice going into Heathrow and be like, um, here's, please don't arrest

me now at the height of my career. Please. I don't know, that might boost your presence. My cred? Online presence and cred a little bit. Then there's me on the cover of High Times. What's up? True crime and chill out.

Dad, no, don't be mad. Should we sit down? You want to? Sure. Okay. Sit down time already? I mean, this is a these are Victorian. Yes. These are straight from

Grogan's pub whittled by hand at Grogan's pub sorry that's offensive no they love being mocked do you want to tell them about the podcast?

you guys don't know this but this is a true crime comedy podcast. And because of that combination, there are people who get very offended, non-listeners. They don't like the combination. They think it's disrespectful. They assume that we are laughing at murder. And so we always feel it's important on our live shows to tell people, especially those that the listeners insist upon dragging along to the shows against their will. We like to tell them that actually we don't think murder is funny.

We've both just been obsessed with true crime since we were very young. And along with that, we've coped with the horrible things in our life through humor, something you might know a little bit about. So when we do this podcast and we talk about these horrible things, we also talk about funny things to kind of let off a little steam in the middle. It's just our process. It's the way we like to do it. And if you don't like it, you can get the fuck out. Kindly. Kindly. you can get the fuck out. Kindly.

Kindly. Kindly get the fuck out. I mean, it's not like we're aggressively, no one's going to boo you, you know? No, we've seen people storm out tons of times at our live shows. Have you guys ever heard the story of the two old gals that came to our show in Texas because they thought it was the sequel to The Phantom of the Opera? Or the other old gals. Maybe it was the same. Who knows? Who thought that this was a murder mystery show? Like a dinner theater show with no dinner, I guess, is what they thought it was.

We should start eating dinner on stage. That'd be kind of amazing. That'd be really good for the audio element, the listeners. One of those two groups stayed and then became fans, but I can't remember which one, if it was Phantom of the Opera or the movie. I bet it was Phantom of the Opera. Yeah. People. They were super disappointed. Stuffy. We did discuss wearing masks after that show, just for the drama, but we decided not to. Do you know i've never seen that movie or that play the phantom of the opera it's like a guy that lives in the sewer hi i'm una chaplin and i'm the host of a new podcast called hollywood exiles it tells the

story of how my grandfather charlie chaplin and many others were caught up in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. Or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus, your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac. We geek out on your business. Learn how at Interac.ca slash for business. Terms and conditions apply. I'm first.

Mine's short and sweet. But I did do some research and go to the pub that is mentioned in the story. Just, you know, research. Research. I had an Irish coffee, which the bartender seemed really annoyed with me for ordering. I bet it's a tourist drink, isn't it? Yeah. No one fucking drinks that.

It was delicious, though. It's just coffee with Baileys in it? Coffee with Irish whiskey in it. Oh. And, like, cream on top. It's just coffee with Baileys in it? Coffee with Irish whiskey in it. Oh. And, like, cream on top. It's fucking good. Don't be mad at that. But he, like, had to do a whole fussy thing to make it,

and I was like, oh, man. Oh. Sucks to be him. Yeah, just drink a beer and get out, ma'am. Please. But the bar I went to, and the story I'm telling tonight, is that of Darkie Kelly. You guys didn't seem that stoked on it.

I mean, what do you want? They've been clapping for ten minutes straight. Yeah. How are you? Okay. All right. All right. I got information about this from the Irish Central and a blog called Fringe Rebels.

Oh. Isn't that cool? Yeah. The podcast Killer Cocktails and then this broadcast called No Smoke Without Hellfire by Eamon McLaughlin. There you go. It was good. He's good. Okay. Do I have photos in this. There you go. It was good. He's good. Okay.

Do I have photos in this? There it is. That's okay. Steven, I'd mark that. Give it up for Steven. He's listening to you right now. He is. But in the future.

Yeah. Did you ride your bike there? I did. My flower bike. I rode it there. So nice. Yeah. That you ride your bike there? I did. My flower bike. I rode it there. So nice. Yeah. That's that.

Okay, but the bar and the pub, basically, it's called Darkie Kelly's Pub on Fishamble Street in Christchurch, Dublin. Okay. And when you go there, you'll find a plaque with an inscription that reads, this building was an 18th century brothel run by Madam Darkie Kelly who, in 1746, was publicly executed for the alleged murder of her child. Oh, shit. Yeah. Okay. But the real story is a little bit different than that. Okay. And I'm going to tell it to you. Great.

So, her real name is Dorkus Kelly. No jokes. Okay. We don't do that. We don't make fun of people's names. It's weird. It's just weird though that that name hasn't survived the test of time. This is my son,

Mackenzie, and my daughter, Dorkus. What? What's the problem? I bet it sounded great with an accent. Dorkus. Sure. You know? So, but her nickname was Darkie, which is problematic as well. So... I mean, that's the thing about history.

It's pretty problematic. It's pretty problematic. Some really fucked up shit's happened. That's right. To many, many people. Here's one of them. Okay. So, I'm going to call her Dorkus because she deserves that.

Okay. She ran a brothel called Maiden Tower in the late 1750s in... That's an ironic name. Which is the tower part? No. In Copper Alley in the southwest part of Dublin. Okay. She ran it.

So 1750s. You saw it. Yeah. She had retired that puss by the time... I don't know how else to say it. Hang it up. Hang it up. You're done. She had retired that puss by the time this story. I don't know how else to say it. Hang it up. Hang it up.

You're done. Lucky gal. Let the maidens come into the tower. That's right. She's like, I'm going to run this shit. Good for her. I did it. I'm done with it.

Now I'm in charge of it. Yeah. Hanging it up. Yeah. Now I'm in charge of it. Yeah. Hanging it up. Yeah.

So she had retired by this time and was just the woman who ran the, you know. The proprietress. The proprietress. The proprietrix. But so it's said that. Yeah. Night two. But it's said that she had one customer that was loyal, and that's the only person she saw.

And he happened to be the sheriff of Dublin named Simon Luttrell. Oh, let's see. Here's a photo of her. Ooh. A little Demi Moore going on there. For real. I'm always so jealous of the people that can do a center part. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Those of us with the big Irish moon faces cannot. I'd part my hair right above my ear like Donald Trump if I could. I'm jealous of people who can look over it even in a painting. You know what I mean? Like she must have looked so over it that the painter was like, She was just like, fuck this. Paint me all you want. This is bullshit. Yeah. Okay, and then here's her lover.

I can never give up Simon Luttrell. Well, he was the sheriff of... Of Istanbul? Look at this shit. What's he doing? Is it Christmas? Well, here's the thing about him. He was a fucking crazy person.

Okay. So, um, he was a bad dude. His nickname, King of Hell. Oh, jeez. I want to party with that guy. You do. And there was even a poem written about him, which I guess

in those days, if someone wrote a poem about you to slam you, it was like super duper slam. It wasn't just talking shit. It was like, I wrote a poem about it. Well, yeah, because I also think back in those days, it might be wrong, but you would get up and recite often in public. So it's like it wouldn't just be a poem in a book, but it might be wrong, but you would get up and recite often in public. So it's like

it wouldn't just be a poem in a book, but people would be like are you ready for the king of hell poem tonight? Have we all had our six guinnesses? Let's do this thing. Hear ye, hear ye. Or whatever. Spread it around. So the poem was that if Satan ever needed to retire

he could just hire Simon to take over for him. But he was, because he was a member of the notorious Hellfire Club. Do you know about it? A tad. Okay. Tell me, tell me. It's bad. Okay. Bad, good, bad, bad. So, they were

dicks. Okay. It was a name for several exclusive clubs for high society rakes. And I was like, what's that? It's short for rake hell, which also means hell raiser. So it's all these rich fucking high society dudes who just wanted to cause some trouble and be rich high society dicks.

I mean, what else do they have to do, though? Those poor men. After you buy a bunch of boats, what else do they have to do though? Those poor men. After you buy a bunch of boats, what is there for you to do? Meet up with other dudes and raise hell. They're so sick of doing whatever the fuck they wanted to that they needed a club so they could do whatever the fuck they wanted to in a club. With the devil. With the devil. So, um, it was, it was, okay, so these men were habituated in immoral conduct, particularly womanizing. And it was established in Britain and Ireland in the 18th century, and they were rumored to be meeting places of persons of quality

who wished to take part in socially perceived immoral acts. So I think there's just like a ton of boning and drugs and fun stuff like that. So just kind of like the internet of the past. Yeah, the dark web. Yeah, dark web. It was the dark web of the past. Of that. The Dublin chapter was headed by Richard Parsons,

who was a founding member of the Hellfire Club. He was known to be into black magic. Me too. And club members were known to be super into partying and having to botch our sex. And there were rumors that the members were all Satanists. Like, they were so bored by just being bad that they were like, let's bring Satan into this party. Satan was like, y'all are boring me.

And they would have these crazy rituals where, and then I wrote, earmuffs, Stephen. They would sacrifice cats. Oh. I know. So we don't like them at all. Someone's fucking clapping for sacrificing cats. You're at the wrong place. So bold, though.

I love it. Kill them all! Kill them all! What if it's the Fox? We turn the lights on and it's the Fox. Street Fox. Shit. Street Fox bought a ticket. He's just eating garbage in his seat.

Like a popcorn thing, but of garbage. I love this show. And I love the devil. So, and that they would set a place for the devil at their table, which is like, that's not very scary. The devil is a foodie for sure. No, the fork goes on the other side. Where's the treacle oil, I ask?

That's not evil. So this, um, this dude that Dorcas would only bone down with. Yes. this dude that Dorcas would only bone down with, she then allegedly became pregnant with his baby. And according to Simon, the dude, she came to him and demanded money. And we don't know if it was either for helping with the child or to keep it quiet. And so, you know, his response to that

was a very sane and normal, saying she was a witch. Oh. Yeah. Problem solved. And he convinced, you know, all his higher up friends in the law space to... In the law ecosystem? Yeah. Of back then?

You know. Sure. To try her for being a witch. Problem solved. So he accused her of witchcraft and accused he said that she sacrificed her baby but then it's rumored that he actually sacrificed her baby and then it's rumored that she also maybe wasn't pregnant at all so let's go with that one okay so um at the trial she was like you can't kill me because i'm pregnant and then um because it was true that you couldn't kill you know I'm pregnant. And then, um, cause it was true that you couldn't kill, you know, sacrifice someone if they were pregnant, but, um, not

sacrifice, you know, assassin, uh, hang, drown, whatever they were going to do, put under a rock. That was the thing they did back then. Just kind of smash you. But hold on. Can I ask a question? I don't mean to question you. I wish you would. How was she on trial for sacrificing her baby and then she said, but I'm pregnant so you can't kill me? Well, a bunch of midwives were like, she's not pregnant. So it's not known if she was or wasn't or what

but the witchcraft thing was... Got it. Got it. Simon testified that she had been casting spells on him to extort money and to make him fall in love with her. That's sad. He doesn't know how love works. I know.

Or spells. How spells work. It's not witchcraft, dumbass. You have feelings and you have to deal with it. No, he doesn't. He actually doesn't. Be friends with the devil then. Whatever.

So, even though the body of this alleged sacrificed child was never found, Dorcas was found guilty of witchcraft, and her punishment was death. So, in 1746, this is how they put her to death. She's partially hanged and then publicly burnt alive at the crossroads of Bagot and Fitzwilliam Street in Dublin City Center. Great job, guys. I think there's an H&M there now. Which, again, great job. So they hang her first, and they said that it was like women didn't just get burnt at the stake,

they also did something beforehand. But then I was like, I saw another thing that was like, they half killed her so she'd be unconscious when they burnt her because the people who love to watch public executions didn't want to hear the screaming of the people being burnt at the stake.

So they were unconscious, which is actually better than being burnt at the stake, I would guess. And here, the specificity of that poor hangman having to hang a person so that they're only unconscious is a lot to ask, aside from the fact of what a bummer it'd be to be a hangman anyway.

But then you're like, you have to get it just right. Yeah. I love that your empathy lies with the hangman. Always. Always. He's just trying to do his job and then go to darky kelly's after and get a beer but no yeah okay but so okay they were worried about the people that they love to see a neck snap they don't want to hear screaming sure they

love to see a person on fire they don's really, like, bothering them that that person keeps shrieking. Okay. And no one can go, have you ever tried this? It's been around for years. But, okay, so that was, like, the story that everyone knew. It was, like, a legend. Okay. Maybe a quarter of the people here know it based on the clapping. They're scared to clap now.

Fair enough. There are historians that think that Dorcas might have actually been a serial killer. What? And maybe the first serial killer in Ireland. Okay. I'm open to this as well. Good. And that the witchcraft story might have just been a cover-up so that the authorities could save face

and not have not known that there was a serial killer working this whole time because this researcher recently named Phil O'Grady, he made the discovery while examining contemporary newspaper accounts in the National Archives. He was trying to find this account of her being hanged as a witch, but he couldn't. Instead, he found a woman named Dorcas Kelly, who was the person who ran

the Maiden Tower, who was accused of murdering a shoemaker named John Dowling on St. Patrick's Day in 1760, which was like 15 years after she was supposed to have been hung. So, he sees that. She's found guilty, and that's the reason for her execution. Same fucking

half-hang. Full fire. You know? The worst combination, truly. that she's found guilty and that's the reason for her execution same fucking half hang full fire the worst combination truly yeah um so it was tradition okay so wait so he finds out that that's why she's actually um hanged is because she killed this guy okay and then after an execution it was traditional for the corpse to be buried in the pit by the gallows instead of a proper burial. It was like your last shame on you. Okay. Okay. The kind you can't feel or know about in any way.

But great. So instead, these sex workers at Maiden Tower were like not our fucking Dorcas Kelly motherfuckers. They steal her body away. at Maiden Tower were like, not our fucking Dorcas Kelly motherfuckers. They steal her body away and they seize her remains and stormed the brothel with her body to give her a proper wake. They were like,

she's not getting buried there. We're going to take care of this. Was it the burned body? Yeah, I guess I didn't think about that. Damn! Maybe it was somehow the remains. Well. An urn. Either way.

Let's say an urn. Good for them, but God damn. And it got so boisterous, this wake of hers with all these amazing sex workers, that it turned into a riot. That's happened in my family, though, too. I swear to God. I've watched my uncles outside a wedding punch strangers in the face. Very intense, the Irish, with their wakes in their weddings. That sounds like fun.

It is very fun. Yeah. And a little upsetting. Well, this one, I guess, 13 women were arrested for disturbing the peace and damaging property. Yeah. They're just going out and fucking punching lampposts and stuff. Do it. So then authorities were like, all right, let's search, like she's dead now,

let's search her vaults, which I don't know what that means. Could have looked it up. Sounds dirty. Didn't. But they go through, I guess, her house, and they find the bodies of five murdered gentlemen. Yeah. So she's fucking killing people.

Really? Left and right. Maybe it was customers who got unruly. Perhaps. Still. Yeah. Not the best solution. No.

So she might have been the first serial killer. Oh, my God. Yeah. Exactly. So these rioting women the first serial killer. Oh my god. Yeah, exactly. So these rioting women are like fighting for their hero and then they come back and they're like, oh no. Close that. Latch. Latch that.

And then maybe build another door over it. I tried really hard when I was sipping my Irish coffee and later peeing in the bathroom to conjure up the spirit and be like, all right, I'm ready for a ghosty experience. Let's fucking do this. Nothing.

No? No. So I didn't wash my hands. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. This is a fuck you. This is a fuck you. To me.

That's not true. This is a fuck you. To me. That's not true. In modern day Dublin, there are still rumors about Dorcas Kelly's ghost stalking the streets of Dublin. But that's middle part, man. Just coming up the street at you like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm over this.

Ugh. Yeah. She's thought to be the green lady of St. Odin's church. You guys are sinners. Or I got that right. At Corn Market in Dublin City Center. It's a beautiful 12th century church, and there are reports that a spirit of a woman haunts only the outside of the church, never stepping foot beyond the steps of the entrance.

And it's said it's her because she's a woman of ill repute, so she can't go into the church or even step within the holy sanctum of the church. But who knows? Let's go find her and party with her tonight. Yeah, for real. That is the story of Dorcas Kelly. Amazing. Thank you. can you imagine how badass you'd have to be as a ghost to haunt the inside of a catholic church

fucking intense i bet it's like it's pretty crowded in there for ghosts out of my way god i want to know the true story of that now. I think that's the true story. Because if there's accounts of her in 1760 when she was supposed to have been put to death in 1746, then that means, do the math. I can do the math. Do the math. She's a serial killer.

The end. Awesome. That was great. Thank you. I tonight, I've decided to do the story of Lying Eye Sharon Collins and the Hitman for Hire. I don't know what that noise means. I don't know what that noise means. Like you're all on her side. The sources for this are The Independent, The Guardian, The Irish Examiner, The Irish Times, The Los Angeles Times. Oh, all the way to Los Angeles.

International Story, oh yeah. This is a very basic version, because there is so much conspiracy and detail and stuff that basically goes on but then actually leads to nowhere, so I just didn't cover it. If you want the full, very perfectly researched and great version of this, please listen to episode 30 of the Men's Rhea podcast by our friend Sinead.

It's a great podcast that's hosted from right here in Dublin, and she actually tells you the information you might want to know. But if I did, it would literally take me like an hour and a half because I have to do sidebars about like my going to junior high while I talk. So, okay, this all begins in November of 1998. So 35-year-old Sharon Collins is a divorced mother of two from Ennis in County Clare. Here she is. Let's hear it for County Clare. We've got a cleavage window.

She went ahead. I dig it. Okay. Yes. It's like, I'm modest. I'm modest, but check it out. They're there. Don't forget about them.

Okay. So Sharon is working at a local furniture shop in Ennis when in walks 45-year-old, sorry, 49-year-old multimillionaire PJ Howard. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Is that the guy from your story? Oh shit. Can someone Photoshop a turban on this guy? I think, I think we know him. Okay. Millionaires. Millionaires. They all look alike. So the two hit it off immediately. Um, and, uh, so he decides to ask her to dinner in Spain. Oh, that is a fucking baller move. That's right. Oh God. That's pretty gross though. You know? Oh, do you want to go to dinner in Spain? I'm rich. I'm really rich. I'm rich, rich, rich. Yes. Oh, okay. It's all yes.

Take me to Spain for Christ's sake. I don't care if you're a creep. Get me out of this furniture store. Stop. This fucking furniture store smells like Pledge. Get me out of here. I'm sick of couches. So they go to Spain for dinner.

Okay. They make a weekend of it. It's a whole thing. So PJ's a widower. His wife had died two years before in 1996. Since that time, he had dated several young blonde women. And like Sharon, no judgments, like Sharon, PJ also had two sons.

They're named Niall and Robert. And these are the sons. Oh, there's this mansion. Shit. Here's this beautiful mansion. Wait, I'll leave that up. Because within a month, Sharon and her two sons have moved into this house with PJ in his, quote, plush and luxurious mansion by a lake. What's hard is when you don't know the story.

So you don't know who you can talk shit on yet or you shouldn't because that's the victim and you don't want to be like, look at her cleavage window. She's like, Deb, and you feel really bad about it. No, no, she's not the victim. Okay, great. Cleavage window. Look at that house.

Look at what a cleavage window can get you, ladies. Come on. Don't be afraid. Use it. Until you lose it. So, it's a romance made in heaven, right? Right. In a month.

In one month. At the time, PJ is worth about 12 million euros, or 9.6 pounds. All meaningless. Con.6 pounds. All meaningless. Convert to pounds! He also owns other homes in West Ireland and he also owns homes in Spain. Damn! In 2000, he

decides to buy himself a boat and he names it Heartbeat after having quadruple bypass surgery. So again, it's an Irishman with a great sense of humor. Take me to Spain. Millionaires are fun and immortal. Okay. So they actually end up staying together for seven years.

Okay. And pretty much the whole time Sharon would like to get married. Now the thing is, PJ is not interested in getting married because apparently the Irish law is that automatically when you get married, no matter what any kind of pre-agreement is or prenup or anything like that, this spouse upon divorce gets a third of the estate, of whatever the estate is. So PJ was like, love you you mean it um not happening for you wow you and your cleavage window get nothing that's fucked up well his whole thing is he wants

to protect his son's inheritance okay and he probably also wants to protect any kind of, if just in case, you know, God forbid, she might be a gold digger of some kind. So, so he just, she basically in 2005 is like, I'd really like to get married. And he's like, I'm not going to marry you right to her face. So they end up having, um, they go to Italy and they have basically kind of a ceremony, but it doesn't count. It's like, it doesn't count. It's like, it doesn't matter. He's throwing it in her face. Yeah. He's like, well, we can actually go through the motions and hold hands and say words in a church. But I'm going to say, I don't take this one. Let's write our own vows. You do whatever you want. My vow is I don't. Okay. So of course

this piss is Sharon. She wants revenge. Knowing PJ's a very private multimillionaire, she attempts to smear his reputation by sending a bunch of emails to RTE Radio in Dublin claiming that PJ... Sure. One of the better radio companies. She claims PJ sleeps with sex workers. She's not doing a great job of not seeming like a gold digger. One of the better radio companies.

She claims PJ sleeps with sex workers. She's not doing a great job of not seeming like a gold digger at this point. Yeah, that's not a good... If you're trying to prove your love is real, this is not the move to make. Absolutely not. To the man you love so much. This is my favorite part of the story. When these stories break, PJ either ignores them or never hears about them at all. And nothing happened. No one gives a shit. He doesn't care. You guys don't

care. Like nothing happened. The whole thing, it like, there was like a little murmur about it and then it all went away. Like, guess what? I'm still a millionaire. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to go cry into my pool in Spain. So, okay, so when that doesn't work, she decides to take it about 1,000 steps further. And on August 2nd, 2006, oh, by the way, I guess I should say right here, and this is the kind of thing where, you know, we read these stories, we get these stories,

and because it's already happened, you tell it with a great amount of bias. you see fit alleged alleged steven i'm going to give you a clean alleged right now or allegedly and you just pop it in yeah allegedly yeah okay great thank you Thank you for giving me room tone on that. Thank you. It's all alleged, but this happened so long ago. Okay, so here's what she does. On August 2nd, 2006, she goes online. She finds a website called Hitmen for Hire. No. No.

I'm telling you. And she uses on it, this pseudonym, she logs onto it with her email address, lyingeyes98.yahoo.ie. Wow. That's a reference

to the Eagles song, You Can't Hide Your Lying Eyes. It's a wonderful ballad about a woman who chooses money over love. Again, she's just creating the argument against herself the entire time. Definitely. I feel like at the holidays this year, you're going home and you're worried about, and I don't know if you guys have as much of this problem here as we do in America, but a lot of times these days, young people go home

and they're worried about having to have the holidays with their parents who have become politically insane. Instead of arguing about politics, why don't you take an hour and just explain to your parents how the Internet actually works, how it is a permanent digital record that never goes away. There is no secrets. There is no hiding.

You can't just do stuff. Making up an email and using a fake name doesn't mean it's never going to get traced back to you. Listening to the Eagles isn't a great idea. There's all these things you should tell your parents that they don't know the word password is not a great password yes your cat's name your grandchildren's name one two three four five is not a good password um okay that's just editorializing she contacts a man named tonyano. Oh, come on. It's like, what's it called when you mash it up?

And it says, police officer. Or the guardie. Hey, what's up? It's the guardie. Let's see. I want to hire a hitman. Should I pick Carmela Soprano? No.

I mean, Jesus. Okay. So she starts talking to this guy online. Again, a great thing to point out to your parents. If you meet someone online, just because they have a picture and a name doesn't mean that that person is that picture or that name. Dad, if you're listening to this right now, please listen to what Karen just said. Marty, this message is for you. Marty! Break it to your parents

that there are liars. Okay. So she proposes a plan to Tony Luciano. She wants a hitman to kill PJ's sons, Robert and Niall. Wait, they're not together anymore, right? They broke up? No, no, they're still together.

What? Yeah. But he's just like, I love you, hang out in my multi-room mansion by the lake, but I just don't want to marry you because I don't want to have to give you tons and tons of my money that belongs to my sons. Got it. Essentially. And she's like,

okay. And then goes right into the computer room and all hell breaks loose has three glasses of white wine and then she's like i'm talking to tony luciano you'll pay but with a brogue okay so she wants this hitman to kill PJ's sons by poisoning them and then push PJ out the window of his 14-story Spanish penthouse. Oh, God. So it looks like he committed suicide. All in an email. An email.

Emails are forever, dad. Okay, so Tony Luciano and Sharon, they write back and forth for like two months plotting out this hit on the Howard family. She confides in Tony, a stranger she's never met in person who she's talking

to online, recording her illegal activity, telling him, yes, she does want his in person who she's talking to online, recording her illegal activity, telling him, yes, she does want his money, but that's not her main motivation. She says, PJ keeps trying to get her to sleep with strangers, and she doesn't want to. And there's one email. She writes, quote,

I have no conscience about my husband. He's a real asshole, and he makes my life hell. But I do feel bad about the others. The sons? His sons. His two sons. Yes, the others. However, I thought about it long and hard and I realized it's necessary

or there's no advantage to getting rid of my husband other than not having to look at his miserable face again. Oh my God. But I must be sure that I will be okay financially. other than not having to look at his miserable face again. Oh my God! But I must be sure that I will be okay financially. End quote. Now, this makes me think of every horrible email I've casually written to a friend about someone else that I don't like. It's forever.

And eventually there will be a data breach on either Yahoo or wherever the hell you have your emails. And, you know, there's, I don't know if you guys remember, but there was a data breach at Sony like two years ago where every email in the Sony, like that had like sony.com basically became public. And I have friends, that's what they do at night for fun is read Sony emails. No joke. And then every once in a while, someone will find a really bad one and they'll put it online and it's just like, can you believe how fat

Julia Roberts, it's some bullshit that some dumb, you know, executive wrote, and it's permanent! Okay. This is why if we're gonna talk shit, do it face to face. You've gotta meet at a pub. We don't have to tell you this. Go sit at the kitchen table and invite someone over.

These email exchanges continue for two months. Overlooker, she's really making friends with Tony Luciano. She, at a certain point, wires 15,000 euros to him to pay for, like, as a deposit for this hit. Then she goes on another dark website and buys herself a fake marriage certificate naming herself Sharon Howard for 1,000 euros.

So she's basically trying to set up a thing of like, well, I didn't do it. We're already married. Even though, so if he was dead, they would be like, oh, they had a private secret ceremony. Yeah, here's your check. Okay. Oh, I just wrote here, this part of the story made me want to make a

TV show called Old People on the Dark Web. And it'll just be about a bunch of old people who don't understand how the internet works, making terrible decisions, and immediately getting caught for them. I'd watch that. That's some fucking TGIF right there.

I had no idea they were tracing my email. No, it doesn't work. It's all traced. Okay. So everything looks like it's coming together for Sharon. But at the end of September of 2006, Tony Luchan, he has a change of heart. So instead of caring, and this is the part where it gets very intensely

confusing, so I'm just, this is so oversimplified, it's crazy, but instead of carrying out the murders as agreed, he flies to West Ireland and hatches a plan to blackmail Sharon Collins and her rich boyfriend. So Tony manages to steal two laptops

from P.J. Howard's home, and the next day he anonymously contacts the sons, Robert and Niall, and tells them there's an assassination plot in place to have them killed, and that he's being paid 130,000 euros to kill them, but he will cancel the plan for the low low price of a hundred thousand euros that's right i'll knock off thirty thousand euros and not kill you because i'm don luciano that's what we do here luciano today only today today today call right now to not get killed all right of, immediately after receiving this message, PJ's son Robert calls

the police and he's like, guess what? A crazy person has contacted me. They trace the message back exactly to Tony and right? How it actually works. The dark web is a fantasy

and they set up a surveillance operation to find him so once in september of 2006 the police actually undercover officers pose as the howard sons and um they make arrangements to meet uh tony luciano at the queen's hotel and pay him the ransom money and of course when he shows up uh also not a great hit man to make a plan like this are you like yeah can we do it out in the open hopefully do you have cctv there oh good yeah yeah let's do it under one of those meet me at the cctv camera on the corner of dumb and ass so when the hitman with the heart of gold shows up,

they immediately arrest him, of course. And that's when they discover that his name is not Tony Luciano. He's 51-year-old. I think, wait, we have the son's picture, I think, yeah. Okay. So, Niall and Robert basically now have to be involved in their own

anti-murder plot. They all look real happy about it. Yeah. That's how it is, millionaires. Get used to it. So actually, Tony Luciano is 51-year-old Las Vegas poker dealer, Assam Eid. All right. He's stoked, too.

He's stoked, too. Yeah, he loves it. He's loving life. He's like, I got my awesome wind, too. Yeah, he loves it. He's loving life. He's like, I got my awesome windbreaker on, and I'm ready to go to court. Tony Luciano. So he's originally from Egypt, but he moved to Las Vegas to work at the Bellagio Hotel and Casino. Gosh. Wonderful.

That was loud. Art. He has a wife and a daughter in college, seemingly just kind of a regular old poker dealer. So the Gardee contacts authorities in America, federal agents go to Eads, Las Vegas home. They seize his computer and, of course, his poorly crafted and laughably obvious website, hitmenforhire.com. Oh, it's his? He started? Yes. It was paid for with his credit card.

Oh my God. Dad! I told you to ask me before you set up your Hitman website. That's embarrassing. It's so nerdy. Okay, so when the police search the messages,

they find people from all over the world have contacted E! to try to pay him money to carry out their desired hits. So many old people. Hireahitman.com. I just can't take her anymore. Oh, my God. I know I'm 75, but God damn it, she bugs me. Okay.

He had actually been wired money from some of the people. Wow. So Hitman for hire was a great idea. I mean. It was like the new YouTube. The Irish police, of course, zero in on Eid's Irish contacts, someone with the email address lyingeyes98.yahoo.ie, and they easily trace that email back to Sharon Collins.

So she is arrested in July of 2008 on conspiracy to commit murder and soliciting a hitman. As it turns out, just because you're in your den sending emails doesn't mean that you're not actually committing a federal crime. It's a big deal. So throughout the course of the trial, Sharon actually suggests that maybe it was Niall and Robert who were setting her up to keep her away from their dad's money, which is a little, it's pretty fucked up.

She never directly accuses them, but basically her defense is based on them, the defense asking the sons, like, didn't you set up this email? And like all this shit that's really fucked up. She basically, she doesn't do it directly herself, but she is asked, do you think they did it? And she says, it's possible.

So, yeah. Okay. Basically, I just got caught for a bad thing I did. Therefore you did it. The Donald Trump story. Okay. Yeah. That's the new thing. That's the new thing everyone's doing these days. Oh, did we get proven that we did a bad thing? You did it. proven that we did a bad thing, you did it. Yeah. You did it, and you're doing it every day. Oh, okay.

Okay, so PJ's sons, Robert and Niall, both give witness statements, and they basically tell the court that this whole ordeal has been horrible for them and impacted them very badly. Sure. But, when PJ takes the stand, he surprisingly

stands by Sharon. Oh, no. In court, he defends her. He says she's a good woman who takes care of him. He believes she would never do anything to harm him. And when he comes down from the witness stand, he crosses the courtroom and kisses her on the lips. I mean, you'd think, at what point is he going to be like, I'm going to break up with her.

You know what I mean? I don't know. I'm going to break up with her. You know what I mean? You gotta... I don't know. Yeah. After 32 days of testimony, 90 witnesses, 10 hours of deliberation by a jury of eight men

and four women, Collins is found guilty on all counts. So on November 3rd, 2008, Sharon Collins is sentenced to six years at Mount Joy Women's Prison. Right?

Is that the best one? Of all the women's prison, that's the one with the spa. to six years at Mount Joy Women's Prison. Right? Is that the best one? Of all the women's prison, that's the one with the spa. Mount Joy! Assam Eid is found guilty also of extortion and burglary, but he's acquitted of the solicitation of murder charge.

Because he was like, I wasn't going to do it. Well, he didn't. He was like, I did decide not to do it, Well, he didn't. He was like, I did decide not to do it, everybody. Can I have some credit for that? No! You cannot. He's sentenced to six years in Irish prison, after which he's extradited to the U.S.

to serve another three years there for all of his other website dealings. Where he's in Vegas prison and he's the car dealer. So everyone loves him. There was a rad poker game going in that prison. I bet. He's like, good luck players.

Don't shiv me. Sharon Collins ends up serving three years and nine months and is released in September of 2012. Okay. Yeah. She's out. Since she has been released, she's moved to Belfast. She's working

different reports as a massage therapist, dog walker. According to latest reports, she's taken up salsa dancing. There's a lot of coverage about Sharon Collins. She's living her life. She's like, you know what? Now that I'm out, I'm really going to go after what I've always wanted to do, salsa dancing.

Yeah. Which is like, okay, well, seven reporters are going to follow you to that salsa dancing class and then talk about it. She's been hounded by continued press coverage since her release. She's had to rename her dog walking business twice. It's called Hire a Hitman. And then she's like, damn it, I love that name. I'm sorry for this joke, but what if she named it hire a shit man, and then it's her holding one of those little doggy bag, pickup bags? I'll be your shit man.

Do not clap for a joke like that. That was terribly done by me. I love it. I'm getting mad at your joke. You're supposed to be better than that, Ireland. Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

So in 2015, she gave an interview to the Sunday Independent and she told them through, quote, tear-filled eyes, everyone deserves a second chance. I should be able to get on with my life.

But, Asam Eid does not agree. He told the Sunday World newspaper, second chances are for people who admit what they have done. Sharon never admitted what she did, so for her, there should be no second chance. I admitted what I did. So, yes, I deserve a second chance. I don't think people who are asking for second chances are going to decide. It's like a nickname.

You don't give yourself a nickname, and you don't decide if you get a second chance. Yeah, you're exactly right. That's exactly right. So, right? Promo code murder. After serving eight years in prison, Asad Eam returned to his native Egypt, and now he's getting a second chance with his new job as a cattle farmer.

Ooh. And that is the insane story of Lying Eyes, Susan Collins, and her hit man for hire. That was great. Highly oversimplified. Highly oversimplified. I mean, I can't imagine what more there is to tell. Well, there's other people, and there's accusations,

and it's a really genuinely crazy story. Okay. That was great. Thank you. Thanks. I had fun doing it. Do we have time for a call-to? I think we do.

It's time. There's? I think we do. It's time. There's Vince, everyone. Yeah. Vince Averill. Vince Averill. Not the whole time. Tour husband. Yo.

He's the man who got us here. He makes these tours work. Yeah. Vince Averill, ladies and gentlemen. Can I point out that this whole time, so we have to have like a tag for people who were allowed to come backstage in this whole tour. It's been a photo of Mimi, my cat. Elvis gets all the hate. Mimi needs a little, you know.

She deserves some. That's right. Yeah. Well, with all the opportunities to get shit-faced in this town, I made it here tonight without getting shit-faced. Okay, congratulations. I'll be right over there. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

Before we pick for the hometown, I'd just like to give a warning, actually. Because when we were in Glasgow, Georgia picked someone, and it turned out to be an American. No one wants that. Americans who have flown over.

We know it's special and a big deal and you went out of your way and you're here with us. We love you for coming. Stay away. They booed her. They booed her, but then she brought up her...

I kind of made them boo her, though. She brought up her husband. We couldn't understand a fucking word he said it was great it was perfect we got a real Scotsman up there and everything worked out so please if you have a hometown and you're from the great state of Ireland

I don't know what that fucking accent is that was total insanity please make sure it has a beginning middle and end and being the most important part and please make sure that you're not so drunk that you can't tell your own story that's happened a couple times

and just make it good, make sure that you're the one that has the good one and now, Georgia will pick does anyone have a hometown murder that they would like to share with us. Yeah, you get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Let's do it. But, yeah.

Go that way. There's Vince. Yay. I love this goddamn place. Oh my god. Hi, guys. Hi. Hi, way up high. All good up there? Everything? On the sides. Guys, we're having so much fun here.

I bought two vintage dresses today. Oh, yeah? Brought them home, neither of them fit. What's up? That's what it's all about. Okay, can we get the lights out? Rebecca? It's Rebecca, everyone.

Rebecca, nice to meet you. Come over here. Rebecca, where are you from? At Dublin. All right. Thank God. Thank God. Thank God. Oh, that's a good sweater. I know. I like this outfit.

Sorry, I didn't wear any makeup. I was a therapist. Looks great. Yeah, you look great. You have perfect skin. I actually kind of hate you that you don't have makeup on right now. Okay, tell your story. Okay, so my little sister and I listen to podcasts. And my older sister, she's not here, listens to podcasts.

So we brought my mom with us. Oh, hi. And she now listens to it, too. We brought her last time. And she really wanted us to get and say the hometown word that she used to say to scare us. Oh. Oh. last time and she really wanted us to get and say the home time earlier that she used to say to scare us oh she didn't want us to walk home through the park on our own when we uh we're coming back from town and stuff so basically when she was on holidays when she was younger in the 80s and someone came up to her and said denise flanagan has been murdered. And my mom was like, what?

So she was a girl who went to school with my mom. So basically, when Denise was out one night, she was out with a bunch of friends. She got separated from friends, and she got a taxi home with a man that she didn't know. She never arrived home. And on the Sunday morning, she was found dead, not very happily raped, mutilated and murdered

at the end of an alleyway right next to the primary school that they'd gone to. So Sunday, no kids found her or anything. It was an adult. There's no DNA, there's no cameras, they didn't know how to find him

but he left his glasses behind. And in one episode, Karen, I think it was in the 70s, you said, that's how you would get caught for murder. You forget your glasses. It's very true. I left three pairs of glasses on planes. Not good. That's exactly how they caught him. There, you know, there was no spec savers at the time. It was only, it was just family. It was just family opticians. So they went round to them, they brought the glasses, they had the prescription, and they found him through his prescription.

Oh my god. So now he did have some kind of mental illness, unfortunately. So he did serve six years in kind of a mental institution. And he was released afterwards. But yeah, unfortunately that was the murder of Denise Flanagan that my mum used to tell us that we wouldn't tell.

Amazing. That's so good. Beautifully done. Rebecca, everyone. Amazing job. Great job, Rebecca, everybody. Hometown. Representing Dublin.

Rebecca nailing it. I'm going to steal that sweater from her. I swear to God. Thank God for mothers telling their children horrible stories or we wouldn't have the podcast. That's for real. For real. Also, that's kind of one of the more beautiful things when we do meet and greets. We get to meet some people up close.

There's nothing better than when two girls walk in and are like, this is our mom. She was the original murderino. It's the best. This has been going on so much longer than we have been a part of it. But the fact that we get to do these tours, the fact that we get to travel internationally and do this bullshit for an hour, and you pay

money and you sell out two nights at this gorgeous theater. We are so lucky. Thank you so, so much for participating in this with us. We're truly honored to be here. Thank you, guys. It's an honor. It's a real honor. It's so honor. It's a real honor.

It's so fun. Stay saved and do God's missions, of course. Always. Especially at this time of year. It's very important around the holidays. But more than that, stay sexy. And jump! Thank you, Dublin.

We love you. Thank you, Dublin. Thank you.