My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 20 - 20/20

Episode Date: June 10, 2016

This week Karen & Georgia discuss the rape trial of Brock Turner before delving into The Night Stalker's victims and capture, and New Zealand's infamous Bain Family Murders. ​See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hi, this is my favorite murder. That scared the shit out of me. What did? Me talking? Hi, this is my favorite murder. Starring Georgia. Can't start. Karen Kilgarib, a.k.a. Kill Hard.

Kill Hard. One of the lamest things we've done so far, give ourselves a nickname. Did you see someone in the Facebook group made a photo of the diehard poster and put your face on one guy and my face on another guy? I just put Kill Hard. I did see that. I did see that. It's turning into like a ego, navel gazing, kind of like, did you see the picture where we, the thing we talked about about ourselves, got made and do a thing about ourselves? I know, but people like it.

They like to play along with us. We wouldn't talk about it if they weren't doing it. It's fun times. And there's, and it's just, there's just thousands of them. It's the best. We're fueled by their, is it projected narcissism onto us? No, that's our narcissism. Let's talk about how last week we talked about judges.

And their misogyny, built in misogyny and sexism. Right. That I think at one point I actually said it's not happening as much these days. Right. And I think we conjured, speaking of narcissism, I think we conjured. I think we're the center of the universe. I think we're the center of the universe about this new fucking huge controversial thing about this dick like Brock Turner, who like Cole, he got, he, he got convicted of three

counts of sexual aggravated sexual assault. I'm not even going to say like clearly he was, he got, he was, he is guilty. He was unanimously voted guilty by a jury of his peers. Right. And yet. The old judge said, Hey, let's not fuck up his great swimming career. Right. And, and said six months in County.

And then his dad had the nerve to say like, Oh, it was 20 minutes of his life. Is he going to get, you know what his dad said? So well, the brilliant thing and everyone's seen this, like we're basically recapping what's been happening on social media. But the victim of this stood up in court and read this letter to him. That is one of not, not just moving and amazing as a first person account. At the clarity in it. Yeah.

And the, I'll let you know what this, what's actually happening and not, we're not just going to hear from these lawyers. I'll fucking tell you. Right. And it's not just like how much you hurt me. It's like, here are the repercussions of your actions and decisions. Whether or not you admit to them, we all know you did because there's the proof. You can pretend you didn't do it like a fucking psycho all you want.

Yeah. It's, it's. Well, pretending he didn't do it. He's saying that it wasn't what people thought it was. Right. And he probably believes that. Well, he needs to believe it because when the wall, when the wall finally comes down that he's like, I'm a rapist.

Yeah. Well, then what happens? Yeah. And I'm sure everything in his life has been built around you get whatever you want. Little baby Brock. Yeah. And then I, you know, some of his friends, there's a band called, what's it called? Good English.

That's not even talk about it. Well, the thing is like, I just don't see a time in my life where I would defend a friend of mine. And I'm thinking of multiple friends who are good people would say, no. He, it wasn't rape. Right. I wouldn't ever say that. I would say.

Especially as a woman. Yeah. And that girl is, well, the girl in the band is a woman. I would say I'm really surprised we would have never thought that this guy was capable of that, but I would never say that it's not true. And it's, and she's full of shit. Especially after a jury unanimously voted him guilty of rape. You can see, you can see the evidence.

So we were just going to look it up to talk about it. And I found this, this article in the cut that the judge is this piece of shit judge, Aaron Persky, Persky, Persky, who's like, thankfully getting a lot of shit and will probably be disbarred. There's an article published, Tracy Kaplan writes that this isn't the first controversial sexual assault case the judge has presided over. So here's the fucking story. In 2007, a 17 year old girl alleged that she was gang raped by at least nine members of the De Anza college basketball team at a house party while she was severely intoxicated.

Three soccer players discovered the rape in progress, broke it up. Thank fucking God for some people. And they, they said they discovered her unconscious and covered involvement and called it clearly non consensual. District Attorney Dolores Carr ultimately decided not to move forward with the case, which was met with criticism. The, in 2011, the case was brought to civil trial and the victim sued for 7.5 million in damages.

The judge, Persky, presided, he ruled before lunch that no one can show the jury seven photos of the women whom the court is calling Jane Doe partying about a year or so after the alleged gang rape. The show, she was partying afterwards and they could show photos and the photo she was scantily clad, she's scantily clad. I'm sorry. So what? Yeah.

So what? They said that the, the, the photos are a direct contradiction quote of the plaintiff claims that she is socially isolated and socially reticent. But. All right. But that doesn't, and especially, not especially, but photos post, post rape. Right. She's fucking, it doesn't matter what she does.

She could be, she could be spiraling out of control. She could be doing anything. Who the fuck knows? The slut. It doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter. And, and here, here's the other thing because we were talking about this at work today. The bottom line is this.

You know in your gut, you know what feels right and you know it feels wrong. And if you are so narcissistic and selfish that you're going to take what you want no matter, either, either you don't have any feeling toward how you affect other people or you don't care, then you, but ultimately that's your truth that you have to live in and sit in. If you say have to be on drugs or drunks so that you have to ignore those, whatever. But at the, at the end of the day, you cannot parse out and argue things like this when that, when what we're talking about is basic human decency.

And I know that for a lot of people, I think there's a lot of gray area with rape that people get, that people have a hard time dealing with, but the, so even if this chick had ever fucked any of these nine girl, nine guys, it's, they still, it's still rape if she's intoxicated and can't give consent. Like it's such a, it's, it's to that extreme that even if she fucked these guys. Well, yeah, because she, if she had fucked them, that would have been her choice. Right. That's what the, in that letter, one of my favorite parts of the Brock Turner's victim,

she said, how can I be promiscuous if I did not choose to do it? Right. If I wasn't even awake, how is that promiscuous? Yeah. That's, I'm unconscious. Yeah. And that's the part, that's the part that people want to argue. They want, they want to deflect away from the truth of the actual action, which is you

took a person who was not there and fuck their body. Right. That's disgusting. You have a problem. That girl doesn't have a problem except for the fact that you decided to do that to her. I mean, it's just so, it's like, I think about people I've dated and been with and that none of them would want to fuck an unconscious body. No, that means there's something wrong with you.

That's predatory. It's so supathic. And bizarre. I get drunk and I, I do stupid things, but they're not at a character. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, no, a lot, a lot of people do. There's a whole aspect to this that I think they can't talk about, which is the way she

tells that story. She is black out. She goes from dancing and feeling kind of drunk to being, to waking up behind a dumpster. I think there's a roofy element that they can't talk about. Right. That's a theory that I have. The, the, the, the defendant kind of got that thrown out or something. Well, that they couldn't prove it or it already gone through her body so that they can't include

it. That would be prejudicial. Right. So they can't, and she's probably not even going to go there because it's like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter because even if I drink 11 beers in a row, that doesn't mean I want you to rape me. Totally. Don't be a fucking lunatic.

And it's not, and also the, if the woman is saying that, that is her truth, it's not up to you. It's not your final choice. Totally. Random guy or rapist guy. Or to defend that that's not her truth anymore. You can't. You don't do that.

Just fuck off. Not you, Georgia. Not you. It makes me so mad. I know. Cause it's just so, it's, it's when people try to parse out things like this of like, is she's half responsible if she was drunk? Right.

Fuck you. Yeah. I did an amazing tweet today that said, these people who are trying to blame this victim's rape on her drunkenness are the same ones that threw temper tantrums when you two's album was downloaded without their consent on their computer. It's the same. It's that thing of like, how dare you with this happen to you? You would never be saying it.

I saw a meme that said, well, she was drunk. What did you expect? What did she expect? And the answer was a fucking hangover. Yeah. You didn't expect to get raped. You expected a hangover. Yeah.

The idea that that's, that should be part of the equation and too bad for you is insanity. That's why they, that's why we talk about rape culture. And the people who, like that fucking judge was a lacrosse player at, he was a lacrosse player at Stanford. What are you going to do with swimming? How on earth do you think, why, what about this girl? Well, this, that's just like, that's boys club bullshit. That's, that's what that is.

Swimming. It's going to ruin. It's like saying someone's life is more important than another. And this goes back to everything we talk about. So it's just, it's another frustration, but, but here's what I will say. I really do love, if you get down into the, if you read a comment section, you're always going to be disappointed in humanity. But Ashley Bamfield, I think her name is the CNN anchor read, she had a whole show.

Did you see that? No. She read the letter on her show. It took 40 minutes and people were tweeting about it the whole time. And it was all these people that were like journalists is all these, you know, those blue dot people on Twitter that were like, this is incredible. This is unbelievable television journalism. There were people that worked on the show that were saying it is uncomfortably silent

in this studio right now. Everyone was just like, because that letter, that's the other thing I was going to say. Not only is it, is it an amazing, clear, well spoken, like here's actually my side. If you want to hear it, it's brilliantly written. It's incredibly written. And I love the fact that she was like that there needs, it's not just something you read and you need to see the emotional, the person reading it, the face. And even if it's not the real one of what happened, you know, hearing the inflections

and hearing a woman read that, I think is really important too. For sure. Yeah. So I think that at the end of the day, when everything kind of like the dust settles, it's going to be an incredibly important piece of action that a woman took for herself that is that's precedent setting. It's amazing. Well, it's, I mean, we were also talking last week about victim statement and victim impact

statements, including the family, you know, finally being able to read their impact statement to their, the murderer of their child and how, and forgiving them and how insane that must feel. Did you see that someone's dad jumped across the table and attack and during his victim statement to the serial killer and fucking attacked him and had to be like restrained and grim sleeper? Yeah. Some other one.

Yeah. Doesn't surprise me. I mean, good for him. I hope the cops like waited a beat before they grabbed him. Is that terrible? I mean, how do you control, you know, no, it's, it's, yeah, yeah, heavy, heavy, this duty, heavy duty, but still, I don't know. I like it.

I like it. You guys be, be witnesses, you know, and also, you know what? Watch your fucking drink. If you're going to drink, you have to have one friend who's a little bit smarter and more down to earth than you for sure. I'm speaking as it's 20 year old Karen Kulgarov who would never pay attention to anything, but also keep your hand over your drink, drink out of bottles. Don't make it easy for people.

I mean, like, it's never your fault. It's never, but at the same time, just be, please be careful. It's a lot. It's fucking ton. This is a lot. This is a heavy one. This is, and also we're telling people what to do who are probably all our age. They're like, at home looking at their baby, like, you guys move it along, we got this

part covered. Move it along to the murder part. That's what they're hoping for. Yeah. We hear you. We get it. Hey, I'm Arisha and I'm Brooke and we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families

and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation, and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Also Even the Rich, wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon

music or Wondery app. Are you first or am I first? I think I'm first this week. All right. So, Karen? Well, today, hi, Georgia. It's the part for the murder skippers. This today is June 6th.

7th. Today is June 7th. My birthday is tomorrow. Oh, girl. It's Georgia's birthday tomorrow, everybody. Tell her happy birthday on Facebook. Thank you. I'm just cross stitching you as a belated birthday present because I fuck you was your

birthday while you were recording and I didn't even know. It was my secret. You're such a dick. I started stitching you, cross stitching you at Stay Sexy Don't Get Murdered. But I realized halfway through, I got Stay Sexy and I realized I'm a terrible cross stitcher. And now I want it even more. It looks like shit and I showed it to Vance and I'm like, does this look terrible because

you know, you can be really self-critical and he's like, I just need a little more practice. Everybody sweetly said that it looks terrible. I want it so bad. I'll show it to you. It looks insane. Put it on a pillow. Okay.

I stitched it while I watched a murder show. Now I have to have it. It's like a child's Christmas art project. It's literally like a child's art project. I love it. So because it's June 7th, it's a special holiday three years ago on this day. The Night Stalker, Richard Ramirez died in prison. Oh shit.

Was it only three years ago? 2013. I got it. It seems like, yeah. June 7th, 2013, which is three years ago. The math is right. He died, his liver basically shut down. He had a couple bad things going on.

He had like blood cancer and something else, but before he died, he turned bright green. They said like a highlighter pen, but he looked crazy. What is that? Your liver just can't fuck. Sure. Because he was a crazy drug addict. He was like, he was bad, bad drug. So yeah, he was basically just shut kind of shutting down altogether.

So I saw that in, there was an article about that in the news somewhere. So I was like, you know what? That's the one my friend, Adrienne, when we very first started this, I told the story about it and she was like, gotta be Night Stalker. So I was like, it's finally time to tell the story of Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker. Give it to me. Not to be confused with the original Night Stalker, Eurons, the East area rapist slash the Golden State Killer, who could still be out there.

This is Richard Ramirez, who in the, basically in the summer or I guess like early spring of 1985, started a insanity Berserker killing and molesting and raping spree that started in Southern California, went up to the San Francisco Barrier, came on back down and then ends in my, it's my favorite ending to one of these stories. It's the best. And I remember seeing it on the news when they caught him. It was the people of Boyle Heights rose up girl. Oh shit.

Yeah. So I'll just try to do this encapsulate. So he was born in 1960 in El Paso, Texas, the youngest of seven children. In the, basically the barrio is what, I don't know, is that a politically correct way to say it? Yes. It's the bad part of town in El Paso. His parents were, his father was a railway worker, but he was illegal.

So he probably didn't make great money. And so he also early on got hit in the head with a swing and got knocked out for a while. I think they said like an hour. If your kid gets hit in the head, send them back. And then there was an, a thing I was looking at that was like Ted Bundy, the green river killer, Richard Ramirez, John Wayne Gacy, Fred West, who's that British lunatic who like killed, raped all those girls, killed his own children, all had to head injuries as children.

Dude. So, you know, keep your eye out. You know who else did? Karen Kilgaro. Shut up. Uh-huh. What happened? My mom tripped over my high chair when I was like six months old.

I had stitches in the front of my head. Smash. And then later on, I don't think this is, this was my own private pain. But during swimming lessons, I tried to do a front forward somersault, jump off the side of the pool and just smacked my head. Holy shit. Super hard. And I just, nobody saw it.

And so I just held the side of the pool and kind of like quietly cried to myself until I felt better and then kept on swimming because swimming above all, right? When you're a kid. Totally. You probably had a concussion. I probably did. Holy shit. I probably did.

Remember how we couldn't remember our concussions one episode? There is one of them. There it is. Okay, so here's the bad part. Ricky being the youngest was kind of like, he was basically a juvenile delinquent, just robbed a bunch of shit, did stuff, got sent to GOV. And his older cousin, cousin, his older cousin, Mike, came back from Vietnam and he had been a green beret in Vietnam and it's as bad as you think, Mike, Ricky hung around with Mike

and Mike was like, here's all the shit I did to women in Vietnam. Here's what we did to the enemy. Here's this, here's that, just filling his head with all this terrible shit, showed him pictures and mutilations and torture, horrible, like Polaroid pictures. And Mike was married and the two of them would hang out, Ricky and Mike would hang out and smoke pot, talk about Satan worship and Mike's wife finally was like, I don't want you hanging out with him anymore and you guys just sit around or whatever. Well, Mike went ahead and shot and killed his wife in front of Richard Ramirez.

How old was Richard at this point? He was a teenager, I believe he was 15, I don't know the exact age written down. He was a teenager. They say that the trauma from that is basically fueled much of the rest of his life. I'm not sure by that time he was so desensitized to murder and torture and that even like without that happening, I feel like he would have been fucked. He was definitely already kind of a sad case. And then that was like, imagine that level of trauma, just seeing someone shot.

They said that he had blood on him from that's how close he was. So bad news. He was also inspired by the hillside stranglers. It's weird to feel sympathy for him. You know what I mean? Well, because yeah, because if you don't hit your head and you don't have a fucked up cousin named Mike, could Richard Ramirez have just been a guy that then went on to live in El Paso and work at a mattress store?

Because I don't know stuff like that is like after what if you become, I mean, obviously we've talked about this a ton, it's a mental disorder, you can't just kill people. It's a psychopathy or whatever. But it's sad to think that he had to start his life like that. It's awful. Right now, last podcast on the left is doing a hillside strangler series and it's awesome. And the lead detective on the hillside strangler, so Richard Ramirez loved hearing about the hillside stranglers, he ended up moving to LA after that happened and like kind of bumming

around there. So when the hillside stranglers cases, he had heard about them. I don't know if he was living in LA while it was happening or whatever, but he was very inspired and he really liked that story. He got really fascinated by it. And it turned out that a detective named Frank Salerno was the lead detective on the hillside stranglers case. And then he also was the lead detective on the Night Stalker case.

And Frank Salerno said that the experience he had going through the hillside strangler and all the mistakes that he made and they all made and that he learned from is the reason that they were able to catch the Night Stalker as quickly as they did. It didn't go on for years and years and years because he learned so much from being on that other huge high profile case. So anyway, it basically starts February 25th, 1985, a six year old monster bellow girl is taken from a bus bench near school while waiting for her older sister. She was carried away in a zippered garment bag, sexually assaulted and dropped off in

Silver Lake. So this is one of his earliest crimes, then a month later, March 11th, a nine year old Monterey Park boy is kidnapped from his home at night, sexually assaulted, left in a lesion park near Silver Lake. Well, we're like five minutes from those places. That's right. And this is the nightmare sauce of someone comes into your house and takes a child. Totally.

It's beyond fucked up. Can we comment on how weird it is that he doesn't discriminate sex with sex with people? I mean, that's one of the things is they had a very hard time establishing an MO with him because it was all ages, all sexes, all races. Like there was no pattern. There was no connection. So maybe they didn't put it all together as one person. Right.

Exactly. March 17th, Dale Akazaki 34 is killed and her roommate Maria Hernandez is wounded in an attack in their Rosemead condominium and two miles from that apartment, Silian Yu, 30 of Monterey Park is pulled from her car near her home and shot. She dies the next day. Jesus. I mean, you think that like in your car, you're good. Yeah.

No. Well, lock your goddamn door. Lock your fucking door. To quit showing off. Um, sorry. It's a victim blimming. Um, March 20th, an Eagle Rock girl is kidnapped and sexually molested by a man who breaks into her family's home at night again.

So this is, he's getting the taste for, you know, he puts on all black and he goes fucking sneaking around. And what they say is a lot of these, I mean, this was 1985, such an innocent time. People left their doors ajar at night. It was, it was, uh, yeah, bad news. So he was basically going around trying doors. Jesus. Um, March 27th.

Vincent Cesara, 64 is a retired investment counselor and he's beaten to death and his wife Maxine, who is 44 is stabbed to death by an attacker who enters their ranch style Whittier home through an open door. Oh shit. God damn it. I always try to scroll on my computer by touching the thing and it zips me back up to the top. Uh, okay.

We'll edit that part out and we're back in, uh, open door. Their bodies are found by business acquaintance. Oh, I actually, I got two different stories on this. I got a business acquaintance. This is an LA times article, but actually there's another article that I read that their son found them. No. Um, I wonder what their relationship was like.

He was 20 years older than him. He was 20 years older. I bet he had money. They lived in Whittier. Whittier is like real pristine. Tony. It's a bunch of white Christians. Yeah.

Kind of living out in the valley. That's where Nixon went to college. They were a fun couple. I bet they're fun. I bet they're fun times. Yeah. So here's the gross part that we'll have to uncomfortably transition into. He mutilated her body.

She had a T shape carved into her breast and ready? No. This one's bad. No. He gouged out her eyes and took them with him. No. Uh-huh. Boobies and eyes.

I mean, problems. What we're, what we're saying is problem. Leave the boobies in the eyes alone. Please. Please. No matter what the devil tells you to do, he's, he's joking. He was like being facetious and you took it seriously. Fucking idiot.

The devil's joking. You mean? Is that what you're saying? Uh-huh. Remember that the devil has a very rye sense of humor and so sometimes he's just being sarcastic. He's basically George Burns. Just, okay, sorry.

Go on. The autopsy revealed that those mutilations were postmortem. Oh, good. That's the good news. Thank God. I should have, I buried the lead on that one. I figured because I just couldn't handle it. Yeah.

It's too much. Um, he, this was a house where he left footprints in the flowerbeds and the police photographed them and made a cast. And that was the only evidence that they had at the time. And they found bullets at the scene, matched those to previous attacks. And that's when the police started putting together that they have a serial killer, that there's someone, you know, going around doing some shit. Wow.

Yeah, this one says that Vincent and Maxine's bodies were discovered in their wittier home by their son, Peter. I hate that because like what, the thing that I was reading seemed very reliable. And then I was starting to get, the more you read, because there's so much about the Night Stalker. Um, there's, there was conflicting reports. Can you, oh God, I just picture the eyeball-less mom. I mean, like it's bad enough, but that's nightmare.

Like that's special horror movie. That's like, that's like the third scare in the horror movie where it's like the worst one. Like having eyes is bad. Totally. Totally. Okay. Mabel Bell on May 29th.

So then, uh, let's see, that was, so later that month, this was like two weeks later, Mabel Bell, age 84, and her invalid sister, Florence, laying age 81, are beaten in their Monrovia home. And they live in a house down a long, narrow winding road. And they're found four days later by a gardener, and they weren't dead, but, uh, Mabel died. Uh, they weren't dead four days later. Oh, maybe, sorry. Maybe Florence was dead, but Mabel was still alive, but she only lived two more months.

It's, this is rough because he, this was, this was why this guy was so like frightening. He didn't give a fuck. I mean, he raped old women. He raped children. He was just, uh, you know, he was on one crazy, like, yeah, right off the bat. He was supposed to be Berserk. Yeah. June 27th, Patty Lane Higgins, who was 32, uh, had her throat slashed in her Arcadia

home. Um, and also for people that don't know the Los Angeles area, all these areas are low key suburban, outlying, and they're not, they're not like close. It's not like, these are all random little cities that are not like connected in any way. Right. They're all around the San Gabriel Valley, which is surprising that they were able to connect them because it sounds like it'd be all different districts.

Well, they kept finding this a via shoe print in places. That was one of the things that it's a via, you know, that brand, you know, um, a VIA. Okay. Oh yeah. It's kind of, it looks kind of Reebok-y. Yeah. The symbol is partial Reebok, but extra lines. Okay.

So are people freaking out at this point? Like, does everyone know about it? Oh yeah. We heard about it. You remember it? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, dude.

He, okay. This was crazy because it was like he was on tour, like it was like a nightmare because you heard about it down in LA or whatever and you're like, oh, those poor people. Yeah. Then he popped up to the Bay area. People were losing their shit. It was crazy. Oh my God.

It was like, it was basically kind of like watching a storm come where you was like, and it truly was that thing of like, we could be next. Yeah. It was nuts. Okay. It was only like four days later, two miles away from the Higgins home, Mary Louise Cannon, who was 77, who had already fought off two bouts of cancer, was murdered. Her throat was slashed.

That was in Arcadia. July 7th, Joyce Nelson, who was 61, was beaten to death in Monterey Park. And July 11th, Monterey Park has a neighborhood watch meeting and 600 people go to it because people are freaking out. They're just like, but the police are like, we're sorry, we don't have a suspect. So they have these tiny pieces of evidence, but no suspect at all. On July 20th, Chayna Rong Kavanath, who is 32 years old, is slain in his son Valley home and his wife is beaten and raped.

And their eight year old son is beaten and he steals $30,000 in jewels and cash from the house. Holy shit. What are you doing in Sun Valley? I know, right? Hiding your shit. Yeah. You'd have to.

But a witness sees the suspect flee in a maroon colored Pontiac Grand Prix that has a damage right front fender. Fuck yeah. And they have at least, they have that. So then on July 20th, Max Needing, who is 68, his wife, Leela Ellen, who is 66, were shot to death in Glendale. That's right. It's so close to here.

August 6th, Christopher Peterson is 38, his wife, Virginia is 27, and they're both shot in the head in their Northridge home and survived. Yay. Survived. It's just so wild and hopeful that you can survive a fucking head shooting. I know. It happens in the show. I survived all the time and it's people in a very normal voice being like, I heard this

loud noise on my head hurt really bad. You're just like, how are you telling me the story? Yeah. Sorry. It's like I make money off of I survived. I'm really not. I'm not sponsored. I swear to God.

It should be. I actually should be. So on August 8th, my sister's birthday, Elias Abouath, 35, is shot to death in his diamond bar home, which is fancy, right? Isn't diamond bar where they have all the horses? Okay. I've never been there. I've lived here my whole life and I'm just in like Sun Valley.

Oh, you know what it is? No Jews allowed in diamond bar. That's what it is. Not surprised. Okay. So he's 35. That's so young. Yeah.

He's shot to death. His wife is beaten. His two children ages three and three months, not harmed. Oh, good. Thank God. So later in the day, they say that they have linked that this attack on the Abouaths is the final link that they are all the same suspect from all of these attacks. And this is the first public revelation that there's a serial killer loose in Southern

California. That took that many bodies. Yeah. And also because it was so random, like Sun Valley and Diamond Bar are two very different cities. Totally. So August 10th, reports of crimes made by citizens to LAPD communications are up 15%. Everyone's on edge.

They're freaking out. So people are calling in. There's increased sales at gun shops, of course. Everyone's freaking out. I would be staying in a hotel forever, indefinitely. So then the Board of Supervisors offers a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the night. I'm gonna need more than that, bro.

But you know what? You know what? Up that shit. Let's get that money up there. Yeah. So now that they link back to the shooting of Cylon U in Monterey Park from March 17th, they're like, it's this one too. Right, the gun, the ballistics evidence that they have links that in.

Then on August 17th, a man named Peter Pan, who was 66, yeah, was shot and killed in his bed in his San Francisco home, and his wife, Barbara, who's 64 is shot and beaten, but she survives. What's her name, Wendy? Was that the most sensitive thing I've ever said in my life? No, we have to do it. And their dog was also the nanny. That's the part I love in Peter Pan, where it's like, so the dog takes care of the children.

And then he locks them out and they go missing, right? They all do drugs and fly off the roof. Yeah. Good job, dad. So August 22nd, the cops in San Francisco announced that the slaying of Peter Pan and his wife is the night soccer, and that's when the NorCal goes, apeshit. I still remember, I can't remember, like, I just remember watching it on the news with my family.

We watched so much news every night. Yeah, news was a nightly occurrence. Yeah. You know how we all avoid it now? No, that's not what you did. No, he watched it as a family and went through it. But like, I remember that, like, Dianne Feinstein was on, they were making like official announcements. It was all breaking news.

It was like. I remember when news was like from six to seven, and there was like going to be a ten to eleven, and that was it for news. Yes. It wasn't like how it is now. Right. Yeah, that was, we had to watch it then. Like, my parents would turn off, you know, something we wanted to watch, and they'd be

like, no, no, no, it's time for the news, like entertainment tonight is what we'd want to watch. Yes. And they'd be like, it's time for the news, because you wouldn't get it otherwise. Like right after Jeopardy. Yeah, exactly. So, um, sorry, I lost my spot. They, oh, so they say that the evidence that they have that's linking it are the ballistics.

Also messages that he scrawled on the walls and, um, and a distinctive but undisclosed piece of evidence that the killer left behind in the homes of his victims. Um, but then Dianne San Francisco at the time, San Francisco Mayor Dianne Feinstein gets on the news offering a $10,000 reward for any information, uh, for the capture of the Night Stalker. Um, unfortunately, she gives away that that distinctive piece of proof they have is his shoe print. And so that night, Richard Ramirez walks onto the Golden Gate Bridge and throws his shoes

over. Yeah. So no longer is that going to be a piece of evidence that helps anything. Yeah. Holy shit. Um, I mean, everyone who had those shoes did that though, just like 49 guys. This is on the Golden Gate Bridge, so we're like, oh, 49 peeping Tom. So they're like, why did I ever buy a vias?

Um, all right. So August 25th, a man named Bill Carnes, who was 27, is critically injured by being shot in the head while sleeping in his mission VAO home. So now the Night Stalker is back down. He's in Orange County now. Yeah. Is that where mission? Yeah.

And his 29 fiance, hate, sorry, his 29 year old fiance, uh, I believe her name was Inez. I don't, I, my saved document and my original document are both on here and some has some information and some has other. Here we go. Um, fuck. So Bill Carnes fiance Inez is raped, but as, uh, the Night Stalker runs out of the house and gets into the stolen car that he has stolen from San Francisco down to back down to its Orange County, she sees him, uh, leave in an, uh, 1976 orange Toyota station wagon.

Why are you getting an orange car Night Stalker? Not smart. Yeah. How about black, brown, go for your brown. Cause it's the eighties probably. And you'd blend in brown or like a kind of a shimmery blue totally was every single car on the road. Yeah.

Um, so she sees that as she like crawled up to the window and saw that. And so was able to tell the police that that's the car that guy girl. So, um, now at Los Angeles city council is offering a $25,000 reward. Yeah. Yeah. You are. And the state announces the state is going to add 10 grand onto that. Yeah.

That's more like it. So when they find the stolen Toyota, they pick up, there's a new laser examining device that they use and they pick up a single fingerprint on the rear view mirror. Amazing. He took off his gloves, readjusted that mirror and they found one fingerprint in the whole car. Checking to see if he had anything in his teeth and he fucking, and he, you know what he had in his teeth?

What? The most rotten teeth of all time. Really? Yeah. His mouth was filled with them. You've never seen his teeth? No. He never had any dental work done his entire life.

And all he ever ate was candy and drank Coke. The first time he ever went to the dentist was when he was in jail. Oh, the trash, trash mouth. Crazy. The mouth on this guy is not so. It's horrifying. And a lot of his suspects, they, the, um, thing, all the women's who were attacked, who lived, said was the worst breath I've ever smelled.

What a weird. Yeah. Yeah. That's an injury. I mean, just make it as upsetting as it possibly can be. Um, so, uh, they use that fingerprint and they find in the computer system that, that was very new. It had like just gone online, um, that there was a guy who had like very, uh, I think misdemeanors

like, like, uh, burglary shit named Richard Ramirez. So they got their guy. So they put out an all points bulletin for the arrest of Richard Ramirez. Um, and they have the, have you ever seen the, um, the picture that the police sketch artist drew of him? Yes. It looks just like him. Right.

Yes. But it's also one of the scariest things ever. I'm looking at right now. Go on. Yeah. Um, so they put out, um, there's the picture that the, that the cop drew, but then they have a mugshot of him in real life. And that goes on the front page of all the papers in Los Angeles.

Um, so meanwhile Ramirez has no idea that that's happened because he was in Phoenix visiting his brother. And so the cops stake out the bus station because they think he's going to try to leave town now that his picture went up and stake out the bus station. He was already gone. He was coming back. He passed the cops in the bus station and just kept it cool and walked out of the bus station downtown, walked into Boyle Heights, went over to a liquor store, walked up.

There was a newspaper, um, it's, you know, Stan thing right on the outside. He picks up the newspaper and sees the picture of himself on the front of the newspaper inside the store. A woman looks and starts yelling El Matan, El Matan, which in Spanish, I'm giving that a French accent because I took French in high school in Spanish. I guess that means the bully. And he hears that and he starts running. Um, so this, this I love so much.

Okay. He starts running. So he goes over to, he runs and he tries to car jack a woman. So he runs up, he punches her in the stomach and he tries to pull her out of the car. The husband of this woman hears this going on, grabs a pipe, runs out, the guy, Richard Ramirez is in the car. He hits him over the head and so Ramirez runs out of that car and starts running. Um, a man named Jose Bergeron, who was the neighbor had run over, but he was an older

man at the time. Now he's in his eighties at the time he was in his fifties and he ran over to defend, to defend her. And Richard Ramirez had said, don't get any closer or I'll shoot you. But the guy says, I didn't see a gun. So I went, so he basically opened the car door and then the husband came out and hit him in the head. He starts running.

Jose Bergeron, Bergeron, however you say it, calls for his two sons and says run after him. So these two boys start running. They ran for two miles. They chase him down. As they start running, everyone in the neighborhood sees it and starts running too. But can you fucking imagine? There's 200 people running up the street.

How did I never know this? It was, I think I remember seeing this. Now I could have seen a reenactment in a, I'm sure I saw a reenactment, but I feel like I remember seeing the helicopter shot on the news of all the people in the street in Boyle Heights. Because basically this whole fucking neighborhood was like, we got the fucking night stalker. These two boys, it was Jamie and, I can't remember the other brother's name, Berguan, B-U-R-G-O-I-N, along with like four or five other dudes.

They pin him to the ground. They have him on the curb and everyone just starts beating the shit out of him. They had called the cops, I think Jose called the cops when they started running. So the cops got there mid-beatdown so that Richard Ramirez was going, it's me, it's me. And the cops saved him from this crowd of people. Holy shit. It's my favorite thing in the world.

Isn't that awesome? I think he tried to, at one point he ran through a backyard, they have a picture of a guy who tried to hit him with, he was pruning his tree in his yard and the guy tried to like stab him with these pruning sheets, these huge pruning shears, but he missed. And so they had all these, it's the best, you can look it online, there's pictures of all these people who are from Boyle Heights who got these awards, they got awards from the city, they got awards from the cops. It's awesome.

And it's totally just people like, nope, not in our fucking neighborhood. He thought he could go and just blend in and just be like, oh, whatever. That's my favorite. And when they brought him down to their local precinct, 500 people were outside chanting. They wanted to kill him, they wanted him strung up. Just like send him out. Yeah. I mean, this is a man who like, story after story, it only got scarier.

And he became like, he was like this phantom where no one could figure out who he was, where he was, and he was everywhere. You know, he was just driving around changing city. My parents did a really good job of keeping the ship for me because I don't fucking remember any of this. You don't? No. How old were you though?

Was it 87? 85. I was five. And a little baby Georgia. And Mission Viejo, that's like, that's like 15 minutes, 10 minutes from Irvine where I grew up. Marty, good job. Good job, Marty.

Yeah. They were going through their divorce. So I was busy. Oh, that's good. You probably were getting a lot of extra toys. Yeah, probably. At that time. Yeah.

I was just going to see this really quick. Oh, one of the cops said it seemed like alert citizens were reporting the suspect every step of the way. So basically, as they ran up the street, every house was calling the cops. Can you imagine what it would have been like if they had, like now, if they had fucking cell phones, I bet you it would be half as many people chasing him and half and the other half would be filming it. Filming it.

Yeah. We'd be able to post this and just be like, here, here's what happened. You guys put your phone away and participate. So at the end of the, so the cops come in and there is a super, if you want to look it up, very scary picture of him in the, in the cop car, because his whole head is wrapped. So instead of having like his rock star hair or whatever, he has, he looks like a gray alien. He is so scary looking in the back seat is he had come pretty serious head injuries.

They were beating the shit out of him. Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, he actually says, I'm lucky the cops caught me because these people were going to kill him. Yeah. Um, at the end, the last victim that was confirmed of the night stalker was nine year old me lung, whose body was found in a San Francisco hotel basement in 1984.

She wasn't linked to him until 2009 when they found, they got DNA and, um, yeah, horrible. So he had actually done that while he was in the city, but they didn't know. Yeah. I wonder how many other like go ahead. Sorry. Um, well, he was arrested on August 31st, 1985, but he didn't, um, the jury selection didn't begin until July of 1988 because they did so many delays and, and continuances and all that shit.

His, he did everything he could to make sure that they didn't start this thing on time. Okay. Um, they basically, uh, finally convicted him of, uh, 14 homicides and, uh, all the other felonies, um, and attacks on September 20th, 1989. It was four years after his arrest and during the trial, there was a juror named Phyllis Singletary who didn't show up one day and she had been shot in her home. And then all the jurors were freaking out that he had had. He was having the jurors killed.

It was a domestic, um, violence thing and her, uh, I think boyfriend murdered her son of a bitch. Yeah. So that was just to, just to add to the freak out. Totally. Oh, are you, what if you were on that jury? Oh, could you imagine? No.

Scary enough because they said all the jurors said the stuff that they saw, the evidence that they saw in the pictures they had to look at, none of them were sleeping. And I bet the man himself, he's such a creep having to sit like, can you imagine that like from where you, you and I are sitting right now, that that's a fucking night stalker. And he was doing things. I mean, there's tons of famous pictures. He was doing things like putting his hand up and he had a pentagram on his hand, which in the eighties people, it was, that was the whole satanic panic time where it was like,

this guy is Satan. People freaked out about that shit. It was very scary. Um, he also, they found out about a plot that Ramirez had to somehow sneak a gun to the courtroom and kill the prosecutor. So then they put in, uh, so it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, sorry, eventually he was, he was sentenced to death for 13 murders, five attempted murders, 11 sexual assaults and 14 burglaries.

Um, and when they, uh, at the end of the trial, when he was convicted, he said, no big deal. Death always comes with the territory. I'll see you in Disneyland. Um, and when they sentenced him, he said, uh, he grinned when they said, you know, you're, it was like, I think it's something like 14 death sentences. He said his official statement was, you maggots make me sick. Hypocrites one and all, we're all expendable for a cause and no one knows that better than those who kill for policy clandestinely or openly as do the governments of the world,

which kill in the name of God and country and for whatever else they deem appropriate. You don't understand me. You are not expected to. You are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience. I am beyond good and evil. That's pretty fucking poetic. Like for someone who's insane and has a head injury and isn't probably educated, that's

fucking a pretty powerful. It's powerful, but it also, uh, being somebody who is in the 12 step program, I would like to mention that addicts have a real sense of grandiosity about themselves. And so this is a person who is pretending that because he is a psychotic uncontrollable murderer that somehow makes him magical and special when in fact, it just makes him an animal. Yeah. Cause that's really what he was.

I know. And you're right. And I think people probably, it wasn't just him who was thinking of him as grandiose. It was everyone because it was such a, you know, it was so terrifying and he was able single-handed leader, put this, put this whole city into a panic, he believed it. And I think probably everyone else did too. I mean, and he looked the part everything. It was, it was kind of, it was on the level of Ted Bundy in the, in how he looked evil,

but then he was also sexy. There was a rock star element. So then it kicked up all that stuff of like women being like, I'm in love with him. He actually married a woman while he was in jail who it does not, uh, uh, he is, is not a rock star, doesn't look like a rock star type of gal herself. It's very fascinating. And she was also a virgin, which I kind of am fascinated. I feel like the fact that he was able to get, it's like the same thing with Ted Bundy

where it's like, how can you be so prolific? How can you kill so many people in such a short time and get away with it? It's almost like you, you are, you are on another level. He, he was on another, I think another level in that way of you can't track chaos. Yeah. And he really was, he wasn't, um, sticking into a neighborhood. He wasn't, there was no, they couldn't get a hold on him because he would just switch the city.

Right. And he also switched his, the type, there was, they couldn't follow any of it. Yeah. You know, it was just like, Oh, there's just another body and another body and another body. And Ted Bundy, because of his charm, they couldn't figure him out. Maybe those were those two things that he was switching cities and that this guy was charming or what we're able to make those people get away with so much.

Right. Well, and also I think the people's sense of, oh, who would and wouldn't do things was very different back then. It was very uneducated. Yeah. Um, but in, I'm still reading that Ted Bundy book right now, fucking Ann Rule, that heard the news that the man was named Ted at the, um, at the, those lake murders where the two women disappeared in one day, um, that it was a man named Ted and that he had a gold

color of a gold metallic bug, Volkswagen bug. And she knew that his name was Ted and he had a gold metallic bug and she told people, but she still didn't think it was him. She still didn't think it was him. No. No. She was like, there's no way it could be him, but, but she did tell a cop that she knew because she worked with them and she was like, just so you know, I'll give you this

name, but it can't, it can't follow up on him, um, like a little bit, but he had then moved to Colorado. I think by the time those two were being like really looked into. Okay. So anyway, that's the night soccer. I'm sure there's so much more online about him because, you know, like, yeah, but there's always going to be more. Yeah.

It's amazing when it's, when it's a classic like him, well, happy birthday to his death. Yeah. Happy, happy death day. Rich. Happy death day. You piece of shit. You total lunatic. Um.

All right. So my favorite murder. All right. This is one that people keep wanting us to do. And I didn't know about it until we started doing this show, which I love finding new ones out. That is a good feeling. All right.

This is the Bane family murders. I don't know it. I don't think so. All right. You guys in New Zealand, I feel, I hear everyone from New Zealand cheering right now because they're like, finally, I've, we've severely underserved Australia, New Zealand, um, that whole area. Can I tell you, I was, I met some girls who were from Australia and I was like, well, Australia

is better. And they're like, why? And I'm like, you have better serial killers. And they thought, I think they looked at me like I was fucking like, I don't think that they were on the same level as me. They're not, they're not one of us. No, because they're like, oh, uh, and they're like, kind of looked at each other and like, yeah, we got good serial killers.

That's like, uh, anyways, anyways, I love my cat. Okay. So on the morning of June 20th, 1994, I met up, that might have been my Bot Mitzvah day actually. Oh, really? The day I was Bot Mitzvah. What was your main Bot Mitzvah gift? Oh, uh, well, the one I remember the most that I love the most was a Ren and Stimpy poster.

Oh my God. That's so Jewish. I know, I know. Fucking love Ren and Stimpy. They're pretty great. Okay. So David Bain, who was 22 at 7am about, he called 111, which I'm assuming is 911 in here. I was going to say 999.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's 999. I get it. Okay. Uh-huh.

I think I'm slowly losing my mind. I think you are too. It'll be fun though, because I'll do it on this podcast. Because last week you asked, why didn't I ask this victim, this murder victim if she had sex with her boyfriend? Yeah. And I was pissed about it too. It was like, this is really bad police work that you wouldn't ask a dead person, why?

Anyhow. I love that because it's like, that's such an obvious brain malfunction. I think I had very low blood sugar. All right, go ahead. Fair enough. Um, so at 7am, he calls the operator and he says they're, they're all dead. They're all dead. When the police arrived, they found five members of the Bain family.

They had all been shot to death. The father, Robin, who was 58, the wife, Margaret, who was 50. The daughter is Arawa, who was 19, and Lynette, who was 18. I might be saying these two girls' names wrong. I'm sorry. Lynette sounds right. Lynette. Well, it's L-A-N-I-E-T.

Oh, Jesus. Lynette. And Arawa is R-A-R-A-W-A. R-A-R-A-W-A. Arawa. Arawa. Arawa. Sorry.

Do you mean Arya Stark? What? From Game of Thrones? No. All right. Um, and there's son Steven, who was 14. And there was evidence of a violent struggle involving Steven, who was partially strangled as well as shops.

So David's story is that he got up at his usual time, he put on his running shoes, and he was a paper boy at 20. So we went on his regular paper run with the dog. He arrived back around 6.42, entered the front door, went to his room. He went downstairs to the bathroom where he washed his hands, which were black from news print. He put his clothes in the washing machine, including a sweatshirt he wore, and then went back upstairs and noticed bullets and the trigger lock on the floor.

And he went into his mom's room to find her dad, then visited the other rooms where he heard Lynette gurgling, and then found his father dead in the lounge. And he was devastated and rang emergency. And the defense, who ended up trying this case, proposed that Rob and the father killed the other family members before he switched on the computer and typed a message that said, clearly, that David was the only one who deserved to be here. And then killed himself, but then that's what looked like a murder suicide, right? Oh, looks like.

Yeah, looks like a murder suicide. So David Bain was examined by a doctor on the morning and found to have some recent injuries. He reported that he noticed recent bruising to the right temple and bruising of his eye, and it looked pretty new. And David had no way to explain this. He didn't even try to explain this like he fell off his bike or anything. So the only suspects were David, the oldest son, and the father. Okay, so they found a lens from the glasses that David had been wearing on the floor of

Stephen's room, kind of underneath him, and there was bloody gloves found in Stephen's room, and why is the father using gloves if he's going to kill himself, right? So four days later, David Bain was charged with five counts of murder. So his what actually happened later that this is from crime.co.nz. The story is that David wakes up around 5am, gets dressed and pulls out a.22 rifle. He unlocks the trigger, attaches a silencer and loads 10 round magazine, puts on his white gloves, blah, blah, blah. He was wearing his mother's glasses because his are being repaired.

He goes into his sister's room. That is. I'm sorry. It's so scary that like just gave me a weird chill. Which part? He was wearing his mother's glasses. He's a 20-year-old guy wearing white gloves with a rifle with a silencer and women's glasses. There's something very creepy about that.

Totally. Well. Like his also, sorry, what year was it? It was 94. So they're probably those ones where the, like, the big round. They're serial killer glasses. Yeah. Yeah.

That's crazy. He goes into his sister Lynette's room where he shoots her twice in the head as she's sleeping. Goes into his mother's room, shoots her in the forehead. In the room of, um, off his mother's room, he finds Stephen asleep. He puts the rifle to Stephen's head, but Stephen wakes up and pushes it away as it goes off. There's a struggle with Stephen bleeding from the scalp wound as he fights for his life. David twists Stephen's t-shirt to strangle him as he lies on the floor.

David finishes him off with a bullet to the head. And then during the struggle, his glasses fell off. He picks up his glasses and brings them back into his room and puts them on his, like, desk, but there's still a lens in the other room, right? So he goes downstairs where a sister, um, Arawa has heard the shots and she's praying for help. Honey. Oh.

No. Why don't you run? Phone for help. Yeah. Don't pray for help. Um, he shoots at her and he can't see anything because he's not wearing his glasses, shoots at her again and finally gets her. Then he goes back upstairs where he hears Lynette gurgling and he shoots her again in

the top of the head. And this is a really good, because I'm just going to get to this. He gets convicted of murdering his family. A few years later, the conviction is overturned. He's now out. What? He was proven, he wasn't proven guilty. He's not proven innocent.

He was proven not guilty because of reasonable doubt. Why? And the reason you know that people don't think he's innocent is that he, he tried to get money for his time that he was locked up. And the only way you can get money is if you're proven innocent and he wasn't. So he shoots her and kills her. He hears the, the other sister gurgling, but remember on his, in his account of what happened, he said that he heard a sister gurgling when he got home from the newspaper delivery.

So if he heard her and she was already alive, still alive, gurgling, then how did she die? Cause she got a second shot and that killed her. The first shot didn't. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. He's still there when the second shot happened. Wow.

She's dying and the second shot happened. He didn't track that correctly. No, he did not. He should have put that down on a piece of paper. He did. He should have worked it out on scratch paper. Totally. And then burn the scratch paper.

And then rinse the ashes down the sink. All of it. He did not think this through. So he throws his bloody clothing in the washing machine, turns it on. Just burn it. Yeah. And they found the father's blood on the washing machine, like a handprint of this kid's foot. He turns on the computer and he types the suicide message from his father.

And what the suicide message was, sorry, you're the only one who deserved to stay. Wow. Then he hides behind the curtain with the rifle and waits for his father to come in to pray which is a daily routine. He kneel, David shoots him in the head and then calls 911. Yeah. Okay, here's the fucking craziest part to me. Two weeks after the murder, after the police have completed their inquiries and handed

the house back over to the family trustees, the house was burnt to the ground on purpose by the Bain family and the New Zealand fire service. And part of the reason that he got off and wasn't put in jail at the second time was because the fucking cops, and it's like a known thing, I'm not just blaming cops, bungled this so fucking hard. They didn't test the dad's hand for any gun residue, gunpowder, just shit like that that they just didn't do correctly. They didn't.

So what was it? It was New Zealand, right? Yeah. So they probably hadn't had like a whole family murdered before. I think it was a rural area where they lived, too, yeah. So what they say is that the reason that there was doubt and thoughts that the father had done it and had done a murder suicide was that the daughter Lynette had returned home. The reason she came home from college that week was to confront her parents that her

father had been molesting her. And they had had an incestual relationship over several years, so he killed his family because of that. That's what the offering was, right? But sorry, who was making that? Who was saying that? Well, there are people, including both of their friends because they were close in age that said that they heard that, but when they were called to trial, that says something

about how they seemed confused about it. So it was never like proven. But that also could have been like the defense attorney making it seem like they didn't know what they were talking about. It seemed like it came from a couple places, but I don't think it was ever proven, which is another thing that the... And everyone... So I went on my favorite murder email and kind of just looked up Bain to see if anyone

had emailed us about them. And actually a lot of people have. Someone named Alexander, he told me here, I'm going to read his email. The thing is here in New Zealand, people on both sides of the camp are so passionate and sure about who they think killed everyone, Robin or David. I've listened to intelligent people argue through their teeth for the completely different sides. And during David's recital, I remember getting our history teacher in high school to spend

the whole lesson explaining why David was innocent. I've heard more heated arguments about David Bain than I have about religion or politics. Wow. Yeah. Because people knew him. So like these are people that knew either the dad or the son? No. These are people...

I think everyone in New Zealand has an opinion based on these random facts. All of this as well as a clear amount of sexual and physical abuse happening within the Bain family, which I looked up and I couldn't find a ton of... I didn't find a lot of that clear evidence. Combined with rumors of cops planting evidence on the scene to frame David or the fact that if Robin had killed himself, he'd have come to have pulled the shotgun trigger with his toe because the gun was really big. Made for a pretty fucking intense story, David Bain became kind of a meme in New Zealand

because on TV and all the shots of him getting escorted by the cops, et cetera, he's always wearing really ugly sweaters. And this I saw a lot. People are calling them Cosby sweaters and shit. So basically, there's a part in the middle of the call, okay, this is really interesting. So basically in the 911 call, he says they're dead, they're all dead, and basically there's a part in the middle of the call where David more or less gasps or mumbles or murmurs. It's a second long and you wouldn't think it was anything more than just him being out

of breath. But the prosecutor argued that David actually whispered something here. You can actually do tests online where you can listen to the gasp whisper and write what you think might be saying if he's saying anything at all. What the prosecutors are claiming, he said, was that David quietly whispers to himself, I shot the prick. So here's a theory that I had never heard before until I read this email, that Robin killed his entire family, David came home and found that and killed Robin because of

that. Ooh. Yeah. So it kind of everybody's guilty. Yeah. So this guy says, did David discover Robin had killed everyone in a fit of revenge? He shot his prick of a father himself. No, because that doesn't explain why the sunglasses lens is underneath the thing.

Yeah. He said that he left the glasses in there like the week prior or something like that. He had an excuse for that. They were under the bed or under the brother? I think they were, I looked at crime scene photos and they were like a myth. They were like underneath some clothing and stuff. So it wasn't necessarily his body. Yeah.

Yeah. And then let's see. I will say this, just if this was just like I had to decide right this second, okay? When you go, when you are a first of all 20 year old newspaper delivery boy, red flag. Totally. Live at home still. What the fuck are you doing? Secondly, when you come home from a newspaper route and maybe he was riding a bike all

over hills and dales, I don't know, but you would work it out like I get washing your hands because you have black shit over your hands, but going down to the washing machine and stripping down and washing all your clothes and turning the washing machine on immediately doesn't make any sense. Nope. It sure doesn't. Also, I read another thing that was saying that he, in his explanation of what happened to the cops, he said he saw his mother and his, like two people, but on the 911 call,

he says they're dead. They're all dead. Oh, so he was trying to make it seem like. No. How did he know they were all dead if in his, it's another one of his, he fucked up by saying that they're all dead went and he had only seen two of the bodies. Oh, how did he know they were all dead? Oh, yeah.

And then I kind of interpreted the dads, if the dad had done it, I kind of interpreted his, his, you know, his, his computer message saying, you're the only one who deserves to still be here. I was like, maybe, maybe he's killing them thinking that he's doing them a favor and he thinks his son is a piece of shit and he's like, you're the only one who still deserves to be on this shitty planet. Oh, like he means it in the negative. Yeah.

You're the only good enough person to not get killed. Maybe you're the only one who's not good. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. That's, but, but doesn't it seem very like classic narcissist where you would write a fake letter talking about how great you were? That's, yeah. To me, it's too much.

Yes. That the dad would be like, I'm going to murder everybody. We've all been in this house together doing who God knows what terrible shit. Yeah. This is my favorite. Everybody else is going down. To me, it's too much. It's too stupid that the son would write that.

Like it should, he should have written some, I think he would have known to write something more. Yeah. But he was a 20 year old paper boy. Yeah. But it sounds like he planned this whole murder out because he also did a thing where he made sure his whole family, he like called the family meeting the night before just kind of, it seems like what people are explaining that as is that he was trying to make sure

everyone was in the house that night. And the next day. Wow. Yeah. I don't think there's any way he didn't do it. Yeah. Also, because, sorry, did you say any of the accusations about incest or molestation were proven?

No, they couldn't be proven, but it's brought up a lot. There's a couple of people who can corroborate it, but they never did in trial. So who knows how reliable those are. But also, that's like, it's the perfect thing. It's the perfect like ingredient to add into this for confusion. Totally. But I don't think he said it. So it doesn't make any, you know, it's not like he's the one.

Oh, that wasn't his story. It wasn't his story. Wow. He was also never like, my dad is an asshole. I can't believe he killed my whole family, which you think you would be saying. Yeah. Or I can't believe my dad, I would never think my dad was capable of this or anything along those lines.

He never did that. He used that to justify why he, why he killed his dad, his dad killed the family, but he killed the dad. Right. No, there's, yeah, because you think that I, yeah, you think he would be painting himself as a hero. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds, yeah. So I, there's like a, I can't believe there's a huge argument about whether or not this kid did it. It's fascinating. Yeah. Well, you know what?

You know how they'll find out. How? If you kill somebody else, now that he's free. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe he won't. Maybe he was 20 and fucking just trying to, it was like, it was like he was going through a reggae phase except for murder.

Maybe he was really into hacky sack for a period of time and then he, he grew some white drugs, went nuts. Except for murder. No. I'm ready to be an accountant. He seems like a celebrity, like a celebrity too. Like a local celebrity. Well, cause I mean, what's better to talk about than something that has everything, murder,

incest. He's real ugly. Gloves. Cosby's glasses. Cosby's sweaters. Cosby's sweaters. I mean, and I can attest to this, I saw some photos. I'm, this is to me, staircase level.

Yeah. Fascinating. This is very staircase-y. Oh, speaking of, I went to a party over the weekend. Remember Erin Dewey Lennox who had her, we talked about how she had her prom photo on the staircase on the staircase because she was friends with that family. She sent me straight over the weekend. She said, in that episode, you said that I believed the eagle, the owl theory.

And she's like, and I fucking don't. Oh. I was like, I'm so sorry. I love it. Yeah. So she doesn't. I thought she was going to be like, and I have the blowpokes. Here it is.

No, no. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Okay. That makes me feel better because the owl theory is absolute fucking insanity and is not real. And she's friends with a sister who is like alienated herself from the rest of the family. I don't believe she didn't do it.

I hope I'm not. I hope she's okay with me. You just said every single name she has. I know. She's a very funny comedian and everyone should go to her shows and also she probably would have told you if she was mad about the owl theory, she would have told you she was mad about the name thing. Maybe I'll text her after this and be like, we cool.

Let's call this episode. It's going to be edited so much that it's going to be 11 minutes long. Yeah. Totally. It's now if you're not listening to an episode, that's at least an hour and 20 minutes. You're listening to the wrong. Yeah. You're listening to a very edited.

You're listening to, yeah, a reject episode. Yeah. Oh, I also met a girl who, okay, I'm just going to make this short. Her photos, stalking photos were found at the BTK crime scene. What? What? What? What?

Her name is Taryn Southern. She's a fucking YouTube star. She's a sweet angel, awesome person. And she was like, casually. And I, you know, the murder podcast got mentioned and she's like, oh, I have a weird, I have a story. It's not that big of a deal. And she's like, he was, she went to the church where he was a security guard.

And he had pictures of her. Yeah. She was like 16 and they had to call her at college and they were like, are you still alive? Oh, I know. Oh my God. And I was like, how is this, you just, you just won my life. You might as well just said to me, like, I, I met fucking Julia Roberts.

That's, and did she lose her shit? I don't know if she lost her shit. She's like, I never spoke to him. He wasn't like a creep. He, he shaperoned the prom. Oh no. So there were photos of her like from prom. Oh, but so she was like one of his favorites.

Like not favorite enough. Thank God. Yeah. For real. Yeah. That's crazy. I know. Wait, when they told her she was in college, so she was like 16 when the pictures were

taken, but then like 18 or older. Yeah. Oh my God. That's crazy. Wait, has he been put to death yet? Or is he on death row? I don't think he's been put to death. Has he?

I don't think so. It will edit it out if he has. So if you're listening to this, guys, this is not dead. One of the more professional podcasts that you are going to hear on it, it, iTunes. You're welcome. I mean, look, we're, we want to be professional for you. Yeah. That's what we're all about.

We, yeah. This is who we are. It's what we do. Um, that this episode, I didn't say the word like 900 times. You know what I, you know what I want to stop doing that I noticed halfway through and you'll notice that my voice isn't doing, I have vocal fry a lot where like I talk like this where I like, you know, I'll be telling a story and oh, I was doing that the whole time last episode.

Why do I do that? Well, we lay down a lot. That's true. That's true. We are, Georgia is often just flat on her back. I really am. The entire episode. If I didn't have to sit up to look at my computer, usually I print my notes so I can like hold

them over my face. Yeah. I wouldn't get up. There's, I've read a couple of the negative, uh, a couple of the negative, of course I have to read those, but, um, well, no, it's just things like that of like, it's two valley girls making jokes about murders or whatever where I'm like, I get that. I, I hear that. We are from California and we make fun of murder, but that's not all it is.

And we have kind of valley girl speech impediments. We totally, we've lived in our life for a very long time, but we're also not afraid to lecture you on, uh, how bad we think rape is, right? We might really have to edit the top of that off. All of together. Huh. It should be just start over right now. Hey, thanks for listening.

This is, I'm Georgia and that's Karen. Hey Karen, how's your week? Oh my God. What a great week. Fun. Positive. Super positive. Yeah.

Um, I, everything is, I like everything. It's a good thing. Everything has been solved. It's things are great and nothing's bad. Yay. Boo. Um, let's end this two ways. Yeah.

Cause people have been asking for this one. Yeah. We missed that. Okay. So we're going to end it by saying, guys, stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Also Elvis, do you want a cookie? Oh, thanks for listening, you guys, what Elvis and can we get the final statement?

Thanks for listening, rate, review, subscribe. Bye. Thank you.