My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 200 - The Humility of Knowing: A 200th Episode Spectacular

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

Karen and Georgia cover the disappearance of Johnny Gosch and the Malahide massacre. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Tiny puppets. Tiny puppets.

Puppets. Hello. Hello. And welcome to a very special episode of My Favorite Murder, the 200th episode. Yeah. It's Can't You Feel It? Can you feel it in the air tonight? Can you feel them stacked up around us?

Can you feel all the homework we've done for you? That's 400 book reports, poorly researched, sometimes not accurate, passionately delivered. I was absolutely doing that. Have I already covered this case today of the case I'm doing? I know I have, but it's such a great irony. The amount, and I know I've said this a thousand times, but the way in high school I spent all of my brain power figuring out how to get out of doing homework, how to get out of writing book reports, how I would stare at the cover of Silas Marner and go, I'll make

up what this book is about and I'll trick an adult and they'll believe me and it works all just to lead to this point in our lives. Two college dropouts, hated homework, and look at us now. Boom. Loving homework. Everyone. You can do it too. If you can write a five-page report and then admit you were wrong later, I think that's

the key to podcasting. It's about the humility of knowing everyone knows more and better than you. That's right. And you're going to be wrong sometimes and to 99% of the people, it's okay. And then to 60% of those people, it's fun because then they get to go, actually, this is the one I'm obsessed with. And then we learn something. We do the talking, recorded talking, then you have to write in old-fashioned style.

And then we have a group hug. And then we get to 200. And that's when we announce the platform change where all of this is what we're now going to be doing. What? Yeah. We're now going to be doing improv. Oh.

Great. You didn't get my text? How are you doing improv? We've been doing this off-script for so long. I don't know how we're going to start improving this. You've got to forget about memorizing these lines that you memorize every week. Just don't worry about it anymore. Okay.

Not an issue. They're gone. Can I just say this? So we've just gotten back from our UK tour along- UK and Ireland tour. Sorry, UK, Ireland with their company retreat to Barcelona at the end. A wonderful time all the way around. One of the highlights of that trip was that we actually got to fly Lufthansa Airlines.

And that is the fanciest airline, airplane, executive lounge I've ever seen in my life. They had like a Christmas cookie set up. I've been telling everyone about it. You have? Oh my God. It was just this German Christmas cookie, it looked like a puppet play was going to come out from behind it. Yes.

It was like a little shed that you'd come upon in an enchanted wood. As I explained to my dad, not five different kinds of cookies, literally like 30 different cookies and candies. I think what you loved about it is that the air hosts, what are they called? Flight attendants? Is that the flight attendants hated us. They were these two lovely blonde German men who clearly were sick of our shit. Yes.

Even though we hadn't done any shit yet. No, but I think it's a cultural, which I kind of enjoy because it's actually very Irish as well. They're the type of people that let you know you're going to have to earn this. Even though I am here to serve you, I'm also not really here to serve you. I feel like, though, I have this preconceived attitude as a Jew that I don't fucking need to earn this from you. I've done enough friend, true, but yeah, I think I have this automatic like, I don't

want this fucking Christmas cookies then. Yes. I don't fucking want this cheese. Well, I don't want. I don't know. No, I think that's a good way to kind of try to change the dynamic. It's an effective way. If you had the kind of weird upbringing I had, there's a challenge in, oh, you hate

me. Now, give me, let's mark it on the clock. Give me an hour. You're going to love me, which I have to say by the end of that trip, and it was a very long one by the time we got home, I had both of those guys searching, almost breaking down my seat. They were looking for my one lost earbud. Did you find it in your pocket later?

They found it. Oh, they did? In the chair, it would had slid into the magazine holder next to the chair. Brilliant. They almost mechanically removed that chair from the airplane. They were breaking down. I kept touching their backs going, honestly, I'll just buy another set. It's my fault on me.

Oh, that sounds so sweaty. And do you know that they didn't find it while I was there? As we were driving home, they sent me a picture. Shut up. They found it and stuck it in an envelope. This is how full, see, they don't want to be nice to your face. They have done that if it was me. Listen, you guys have a different history.

It's a different setup. But maybe because I was like, I'll take the loss, I'm not making you do this, please stop doing it. And they wouldn't stop looking. And then they were like, and we found it. Now it's in an envelope. Now it's on the way to your house. Full fucking service.

But also the most beautiful executive lounge, like I want to just live there for the rest of my life. I'm definitely getting the couches that were in that. You should go back. Just have a vacation in the executive lounge. Just at the cookie shed. Right. I'll stand at the cookie fucking shed.

Right. It's their year round, even though it's Christmas, because it's Germany. Don't worry about it. They do what they want. Can I tell you, can I change the subject? Please. The confession killer on Netflix. Oh.

Which we've done an ad for. I fucking took the time to watch it. Autist tool. Fucking good. No, it's Henry Lee Lucas. There's a little autist in there. Oh, okay. But I really didn't know that whole, I just kind of never read anything or listened to

about him because I was like, fuck this mass fucking serial killer. I don't care. Yes. But then I watched this fucking documentary and there's twists and turns and it like fucking, there's like a whole law enforcement thing that like maybe like, you know, turns on this person and there's all this crazy shit going on and the victims' families having to deal with him confessing to like over 300 murders. So then they're excited that they could get answers and then.

Right. And I don't want to say what happens, but like that he didn't do that, 300 murders. No. It's a really good fucking story and it's a really good fucking documentary. Awesome. Because I have to say there's been a couple people, either people have brought up to us or that we've heard about or whatever, where I'm like, I don't know, I might get my saturation point in terms of just basically all of these are roughly the same.

We just keep telling the same story over and over again, essentially. Because I mean, it's astounding and it's kind of like frustrating to watch because it's, he was given a chance to confess to all these murders and the way it happens is really frustrating. And so it's, it's a hard watch because you get really like worked up and upset. So it is hard, but it's different in that it's, it's kind of, it's just well done. Oh, good. I'm going to watch it then. Yeah.

There's the other one about the Nazi that lives next door. Oh, I started watching that too. Too upsetting. Too upsetting. Yeah. I don't know if it's him. I never finished it. I don't know if I'm going to start.

Because I think it is. There's so much, you know what I've been watching since I got back and maybe it was a little bit of like to wean me off of the entire Ireland UK experience. There's season three of Toast of London is on and it's the Matt Berry's British series, that character, Stephen Toast, who is, he's an actor, but he mostly does voiceover. It's the funniest series. It's incredibly intentionally offensive. So watch, be careful who you recommend it to.

I made the mistake of being like, dad, you're going to love this. And then forgot that there's like so much like just gratuitous sex and insane. Oh, no. Where I went, oh, what, I'd remembered this as just being kind of funny in general. I forgot. You recommended soft porn to your dad. Dad, you're going to think this is hilarious. But anyway, it's, I, I watched that so quickly, like the second I got back.

I got it. I took, I stayed on for like three days after we got back. It was so nice. We were making plans. We were, we were ours being, being yes to parties. Oh my God. We were doing things that in, in the moment I knew we weren't going to do it, but I was like, but I should cut to three days after we got back.

And I was still on the couch like, is it seven AM or seven PM? I have no idea. My problem is I don't want to go out after dark and right now it turns dark at like five o'clock. Yeah. So I don't, I like, I'm home till like three doing shit. And then I have a two hour window to leave the house, which I usually don't want to. And then it's night and I don't want to.

Yeah. That's right. It kind of all starts to shut down. Yeah. It's like we live in a, on the North Pole now or something where it all gets a little low key and also my energy just slowly sapped all day long. So then it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm too old to like go out at night. No.

And the thing is I have a fireplace now too. Cozy. Damn it. Cozy. Cozy. Yeah. My heater was broken. No, not to complain.

Complain. But when I got back, my heater was broken and my house has like a tile floor. It was so cold that I was wrapping the dogs up in blankets and myself up in blankets and we're all on the couch. Like no one left the couch because it was so cold. When I was like sitting up watching TV, I was wrapping blankets around my, around myself like it was a Game of Thrones costume. Meanwhile, you're fucking jacuzzi sitting out there being not used.

Meanwhile, you all could have gone in together. I should have forced the dogs into the jacuzzi. Don't you like it? Guys, we'll have a soak, we'll relax, we'll talk about stuff. I know you're mad that I was gone. Can I do a quick merch plug? Please do. This one's really, this isn't just your regular merch plug.

We now have a bunch of new designs and a lot of Christmas and holiday items. Yes. It's so exciting. Some great ones. You can stay sexy and do God's mission holiday design and it's, we have it on ornaments. Stay saved and do God's mission. Shit. Stay saved and do God's mission.

We have it on like sweaters and t-shirts and on ornaments. It's so fucking cute. We have a Sprankers design. Love it. We have a new Elvis design. We have a Yeti Truthers design, which is the cutest thing I've ever seen. All you Yeti Truthers out there, you finally have a t-shirt that speaks for you. We should have had it be double-sided.

On the other side, it says, I don't believe in Yeti's and you could pick which one you want to be. You can like turn it inside out next time. And we have a, you're in a cult. And then we're also pairing with this really incredible murdering out name, Abby Paulus, who is this incredible artist and she's doing some wrapping paper for us. And she's doing like this really cool December like gift calendar for us. She's so fucking talented and we love working with her.

Yeah. So that's exciting. There's ornaments. There's clothing. There's mugs. Yeah. So many gifts. So many gifts.

Oh, and you can buy people now a fan cult membership as a gift and we also, yeah. And affordable. We have a black and white, my favorite murder logo pin and all the proceeds of that are going to rain. Yeah. That's awesome. So you can actually get someone something and then feel good about the fact that you're actually giving.

Right. Twice. And their leather jacket looks cool. Yeah. It's just a rad pin. Bonus. Yeah. Nice one.

Nice plug for the holidays. Thank you. I love the plug in. I've never, I've never gotten out of it. You're 24 seven. That's why you stay home so much. Hey Vince, have you seen these great new shoes? Check it out.

You're going to love them. They're called Crocs. Georgia won't stop plugging shit for me. I don't know what to do about it. That everything? I think so. Okay. Great.

Okay. You know, if we think of it, we'll say it in the middle of the show. Isn't that the kind of structure we've always adhered to? It's been 200 episodes. If you don't know how the structure is yet, then keep listening because we'd love to know if there is a structure or if there's something we should be looking into structure wise. Yeah.

And we love that you're here. We're here too. Yeah. God, it's almost been four years actually. It's crazy. Fuck. 200 seems like hardly any. It doesn't seem like a lot.

For what it feels like we've experienced. Yes. You know what I mean? To me, this feels like 2000. I was going to suggest that we both go back and listen to episode one, but then I'm like, why would I do that to us? No. No.

No. Why would I ever do that to us? Oh, God. They'll just change everything. I was going to suggest that we restart the Facebook page and just really dig into some opinions. Walk away from it all. Opinions.

Well, you know what? It's been just a true explosion. It's been a whirlwind. It's so exciting like having just been in Ireland, the UK and parts unknown. It's been so awesome to meet people face to face who are like, I'm as excited as you are or I feel like I've been there with you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you that we get some time from the mom-daughter combos is it kills me.

It is so great. It gets me good and it's so nice. It's what I love about touring aside from all the clapping is really that kind of face to face like, hey, I've done this with you and all the stories. It's just the coolest. It makes it tangible. It makes it tangible. And people saying like, I wasn't sure.

Now I'm like, now I'm changing my major to criminal justice. That kind of stuff where we're, first of all, we say all the time, but we get credit for shit we should not get credit for. But just the idea that we're like the part of these people's lives. It's and in 200 episodes in this, in this way, it's like in a way that you can't understand sitting across the table from me right now with Steven in the corner, even he's dropping the whole time. Yeah.

Yeah. Giggling into his face. I'm sorry. Giggling into his hand. You just don't get it. If you could see Steven Giggle into his own face, you, it's the gigglyest. I think that technically we've been doing this podcast to make Steven laugh in the corner for this whole time when we learn that other people listen to it.

That's the most surprising part. It's more than Steven giggling into his face. It's so much more than that. And we get to learn every time we, we do leave the house or leave the state or the country, then we get to learn what that means. So it's really nice to learn it because that's kind of our perspective is, I would say the weirdest. Yeah.

It's the most. It is. It's myopic of all. It's surreal. Oops. It's a better cooking routine. With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in

the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. I think here in January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout.

I miss cooking so much I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20.

Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candice DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily I share a quick 10 minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths, and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly

arrested Stockton serial killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Okay.

Do you want to start your thing? I go first. Okay. Right? Yes. Oh shit. Wait, this is out of order. I was like, that's not how this starts.

Wait a second. Does not start in the... Oh shit, Steven, I do need you to print some stuff. Sorry. I might print them around out of paper. Oh, you did? I just need page one through five. All right.

I'm actually a little nervous about this one. Okay. Because it's a big one and a lot of people know a lot of shit about this. Yeah. A lot of people have a lot of theories. Okay. And I don't want to get anything wrong. JFK?

Oh my God. Oh no. Are you about to enter into some Jack the Ripper territory? No. Okay. I'm about to do the disappearance of Johnny Gosh. Wow. Right?

Okay. Yes. Absolutely. And this one has levels. Oh man. And this one has fucking twists and turns. Or does it? It depends on who you ask.

It's... Any way you slice this story, it's so incredibly heartbreaking. Yeah. Obviously. It's just such a painful way that something like this could go. Totally. I mean, it's very similar to the Jacob Wetterling case, which we covered a couple episodes ago. But it's got different twists and turns just because of the nature of the parents, the

law enforcement, the, you know, the public. But it's similar. So I got info from... It's kind of Wikipedia info. Des Moines Register, johnnygosh.com, which I think is run by his mom, a New York Times article, an article on Owlcation, Owl, O-W-L, Cation. The animal? Yeah.

Okay. By Annette Sharp, and a couple articles in Medium by The True Crime Times. And also the documentary Who Took Johnny. Yep. That's what it's called. The Netflix documentary? Yeah, the Netflix documentary Who Took Johnny, which is so good and heartbreaking and I highly recommend it.

So I'm going to give you a little, a little taste of it. Okay. Here we go. Okay. This is one of those ones that, because the family pain is so on the surface and so, so a part of it, it's hard to read. It's not, it feels like one of those ones. I definitely prefer true crime stories that are like, it happened long ago, it was one

and done or whatever, like the group thing happened and ended, obviously not for everybody, but like, I don't know, there's something about the mother continually trying and I want to see the, you know, and feel and experience what people went through and it helps me understand the story more. Yeah, completely. Oh, and the one thing I would say that changes because of recent things that, that makes it probably much more satisfying and it's bringing it up to a different level as you, as you point out, is the fucking Epstein story that breaks, that suddenly, okay, I'll let

you get into it. Like a hundred percent. Let's talk about that. It's that thing of like, what used to be a conspiracy theory, right, nearly 10 years ago, nearly five years ago, is suddenly now, oh no, this is absolutely possible and real and who knows. A hundred percent. We'll get into it.

Okay. On Sunday, September 5th, 1982, in the city of Des Moines, Iowa, which we've been to, it's a very charming city. Yes, we love that place. It was, West Des Moines was then an upper middle-class suburb of about 22,000 people. 12-year-old Johnny Gosh leaves home before dawn for his regular paper route, which a lot of kids did in the 80s and 90s. It's a totally normal thing.

The thought of my kid going out in the dark before dawn would, would scare the shit out of me, but it was a totally normal thing back then. People didn't know that predators were lurking and, in fact, a lot of people didn't even know the word pedophile. They didn't know what that was. Yeah. So. Such a different time.

Yeah. So, he goes out from his paper route, he's in seventh grade, and usually he's accompanied by his dad, but that morning, for some reason, he didn't wake his dad up. He wanted to do it alone. It's heartbreaking. But instead, he takes his red wagon and the family's miniature docks and Gretchen and heads out to pick up his newspapers at the newspaper meeting place. Right.

I'm sure there's a name for it. It's where they rubber band the papers and they collect all their papers and head off. The warehouse. Yeah. Yeah. The warehouse. And that's the last time any corroborated sighting of Johnny Gosh occurs. So, cut to around 6 a.m., John and Noreen Gosh, Johnny's parents, they begin getting

phone calls. And those phone calls are from the people who were supposed to receive newspapers on Johnny's route who hadn't got them and they were like, grr grr grr, curmer, genie and shit, Sunday morning. Yeah. Johnny had never missed a drop off before, so of course his parents are worried. His dad goes out to search the neighborhood. Just two blocks from their home.

He comes upon Johnny's, you know, wagon that he had been pulling full of undelivered newspapers, fucking Gretchen, true to the fucking end is sitting there waiting. What did she see? What did she see? What did she see? I know. That poor baby. By all accounts, Johnny wasn't the type of kid to run off at all.

He would never have left his dog and his delivery behind. He was saving money to purchase a dirt bike, so there's no reason why he would have just fucking left, but it's not a thing. It's not a thing. Especially at 5.45 in the morning. It's not like he saw some friends and ran off to like hang out with them, you know. The gashes immediately contacted the West Devine Police Department and report Johnny's disappearance. Of course, like any fucking parent would, up until this point in history, children's

disappearances weren't treated any differently than adults' disappearances, which is fucking crazy. So crazy. There isn't even a national database of missing children, so while the police had the ability to record and track information about stolen cars, stolen guns, even stolen horses with the FBI national crime computer, there's no database on stolen children. Isn't that the weirdest, like the blind spots that when they are discovered, it's like if you told that to anybody, I think at that point in time they'd go, how is that possible?

Right. Because you assume these things are taken care of, or you assume everyone's gone over things point by point and figured this stuff out. Right. That's exactly right. Insane. But I think that also has to do with like, you're in charge of your own kids, everybody keeps to themselves.

Totally. If you slap your kids around at home, it's none of my business, everyone, you know. No seatbelts smoking a car? If, again, kids were second class citizens like crazy until very recently. Absolutely. Yeah. So the police, and it's part of the reason that they're, I feel like you'll see, but they're not, is because of this case.

So it's an important one. So the police are just 10 blocks away, but it takes 45 fucking minutes for them to get to the gosh's house. And once they're, they say there's no evidence of a crime. So they suspect Johnny's just a runaway, as they always did. So the goshes also aren't legally allowed to file a missing persons report for 72 fucking hours. Really?

Yeah. I thought it was 48. It's just depended on the state, I think, 72 hours of your 12 year old being fucking missing. So the cops are like, goodbye, good luck, fuck off. But Noreen Gosh is a fucking force. This woman is like the backbone of the story. She is like having none of this bullshit.

She immediately begins phoning friends and family and organizes a search party. The whole community seems to rally around the goshes because this kind of thing doesn't fucking happen in Des Moines. It felt like a small town, a small community, and this kind of thing didn't happen. So residents are shocked that something like this would happen in their community. Meanwhile, local law enforcement was shockingly indifferent in Johnny's disappearance. In fact, according to Noreen, police chief Orville Cooney showed up to the park where neighbors and friends were congregating in order to do their own search.

There's about 20 people getting together, planning their search for Johnny. The fucking police chief shows up, allegedly some say he was drunk, and he stood on a picnic table and threw a megaphone, yells to the searchers that they should go home because quote, Johnny, because Johnny was quote, just a damn runaway. What the hell? Uh-huh. But I mean, it doesn't make sense because it's one thing to say that that's your theory or that's how the police stands.

It's another thing to fight the people who are trying to take action. Exactly. Well, this is what fuels the cover up stories that, or this is what fuels the cover up conspiracies that come after. Okay. There's so much more to this, I can't overstate how little police and FBI as well gave a shit about Johnny going missing. She would not stop trying to get them to do something and they fucking wouldn't.

They said they didn't have a crime and she'd be like, quote, I don't have a son. That's like the fucking proof. Yeah. They'd openly mock and threaten her when she tried to get help from them and they tell her, you know, all these crazy things and just completely discount her and she was having none of it. So in fact, this fucking horrible Cooney guy allegedly began spreading the story that Johnny was not the gosh's real child but was actually adopted and that's why he ran away

is to find his real parents. So fucking Noreen had to produce Johnny's birth certificate and publish it in the newspaper to prove she's trying to find her son and this person is working like actively working against her. Well, slandering. Exactly. That's crazy. Yeah.

So, so allegedly Orville had a reputation as the town drunk, he later left the department in disgrace. Of course, there's some witnesses and people in the neighborhood who come forward with information about that morning. First of all, at the newspaper depot place, a father and his kid remember a man in a car asking Johnny for directions. Fucking red flag. Don't ask children where to go.

And then one of the father approaches the man quickly drives off and according to the kid, Johnny said that the man had creeped him out and like took off to get away. So later, well on his route, a neighbor reports that he watched from his bedroom window as Johnny was talking to a stocky man in a blue two tone, two toned Ford Fairmont with Nebraska plates. Remember Nebraska. Okay. The gossas distribute over 10,000 posters and flyers with Johnny's picture on it.

They sell these chocolate bars that have his picture on it in order to raise money to hire a private detective, she, Noreen contacts local and national media to cover the story. It's seen nationwide. She goes on all these programs trying to get help to find her missing son. Ultimately authorities aren't able to uncover any evidence as to Johnny's whereabouts or any motive to his fucking kidnapping. And they find no suspects in connection with the case. Then two years after Johnny disappears on August 12th, 1984, another Des Moines area

paper boy disappears, 13 year old Eugene Martin left his home at approximately 5 a.m. to deliver Des Moines register on the south side of Des Moines, just seven miles from where Johnny disappeared. Eugene normally delivered papers with his older step brother, but on this day he went alone too and disappeared. Witnesses say they saw Martin talking to a clean cut white male in his thirties sometime between five and five 45 a.m. Some stated the two appeared to be engaged in a friendly father son sort of conversation.

No evidence of what happened to Eugene was ever uncovered. In September, 1984, a dairy farmer in Des Moines, Iowa begins printing photographs about Johnny and Eugene on their milk cartons. And the idea of local independent dairies, this is their idea, which I find so fascinating. They put the photos of missing children in their area on milk cartons so the customers who purchased the milk would be encouraged to look for the missing children or keep an eye out. This half starts in the early 80s.

There had been no system in the United States for tracking missing children nationwide. So by 1985, 700 of the 1600 independent dairies in the United States had adopted the practice. It's unbelievable. It's so smart. I would love to know who was the first. If you listen to 99% Invisible's episode called Milk Carton Kids, they tell you the whole fucking story. It's great.

Awesome. I'm literally going to write that down. It's so good. And it became this part of our childhood, right? Milk carton kids, you'd go in the morning and sit down at the kitchen table to eat cereal and there'd be the face of some kid who fucking looked like someone you went to school with right there. And they were gone.

They were gone. Terrifying. And we all thought there was mass fucking murderers everywhere and we were going to get kidnapped any minute. Well, and that idea that it was like, they finally were taking it into their hands of this is an item that everyone looks at every morning, why not use it for good and get awareness and yes, it devastated and traumatized. No, I mean, it shouldn't have been there because it was like on top of, yeah, well, I was going

to say like the constant threat of nuclear war, which I remember just constantly obsessing on as a kid. When the milk carton kid thing started, it was just like, oh yeah, like things are not great. You're just, it's a ticking time and tell things go to fucking hell. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's an incredible campaign, but it is just as the same thing as kids having no supervision.

Well, and it's the, I think it's the discomfort and it's what people don't like about true crime, which is the reality of it. It's yeah, you have to sit there and go no matter what age you are and go, somebody took this boy and no one found him and no one knows what happened and we have to do something. That's uncomfortable. And up until that point, I'm sure people would be like, that's, you can't do that. You can't put those pictures on that. And it's like, no, somebody has to do something because there's no one else is going to do

it. I love that. Overall, the campaigns didn't have much success in bringing missing children home in the end and was criticized for overstating the risk of child abductions. Oh, really? Yeah. Which brought about a type of moral panic called stranger danger. Was it moral panic?

Remember, it totally was. It was like us versus them. Don't talk to strangers. Those people are going to hurt you and really this fucking fear should be in your own circle and in your own life, unfortunately. True, true. Yeah, that's right. And so the phrase is intended to encapsulate the danger that is associated with adults

who children don't know and to reinforce the public fears of strangers as potential pedophiles despite sexual abuse of children being more likely to occur in families, unfortunately. So it kind of, oh, the 80s. The 80s. Well, it was like someone do something. So it's not going to be the best plan, but it definitely raised awareness and it did happen. You know, 100%.

It did happen. And that's like a really good point of this is that because they didn't even know what pedophiles were at the time, Johnny's parents, in their mind, he had been held, he was being held for ransom. And that's why he was kidnapped in the first, you know, interviews that they do, they're pleading to the captors to just let them know what they want and they'll give it. Like when is the ransom coming in? They didn't understand this whole, you know, pedophile, you know, stranger danger abduction.

It just wasn't even on their fucking radars. In fact, a third Des Moines kid, 13-year-old Mark James Warren Allen also disappeared from Des Moines in 1986. On March 29th, he told his mother he planned to walk to a friend's house down the street and then just fucking vanished. So basically every two years this was happening in Des Moines. So Noreen was infuriated by the indifference of local law enforcement and her son went missing.

They fucking did nothing. And she becomes increasingly vocal about the inadequacy of law enforcement's investigation of missing children. She establishes the Johnny Gosh Foundation in 1982 through which she visited schools and speaks at seminars about sexual predators and warning kids. She lobbies for the Johnny Gosh Bill, a state legislation which would mandate immediate police response to reports of missing children as it fucking should be is today. The bill became law in Iowa in 1984.

And Noreen, alongside John Walsh, who of course became an advocate for abducted children when his six-year-old son Adam Walsh, if you're from that time, you fucking remember, had been kidnapped from a mall in Hollywood, Florida in 1981. So Noreen with John Walsh testified before the US Department of Justice and in turn they fucking ended up providing $10 million to establish the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. That was Noreen Gosh. She was one of the parents who fucking helped get that passed.

Amazing. Isn't that incredible? Yeah. And meanwhile, people are calling her fucking crazy because she won't let it go and she doesn't think her son is dead and she refuses to fucking give up the fight. They're calling her nuts and stuff and she's just like, fuck this shit. It's like, clearly she didn't go crazy if she was able to then eventually get a law passed.

Exactly. Like, you know, there's one thing to be completely lose your mind over the loss, but clearly she was not crazy. And people were like insulting her for not crying on TV and, you know, when she was playing and she was like, if my son is watching, I want him to see that his mom is taking control and like doing shit about it. Not just crying, you know. Right.

That's amazing. Noreen alleges that throughout her fight to find out what happened to her son and her battle with law enforcement to give a shit, she began receiving death threats, warning her to back off and to stop making waves. And she later says that what she didn't realize at the time was that she was, quote, knocking on the back door of what became the Franklin Credit Union investigation. I wish I didn't have to include this in there. It's like, this is, it's okay.

Let's just get through this. Okay. Okay. And I want your opinion on all this too. In 1988, authorities looked into allegations that prominent citizens of Nebraska, as well as high level US politicians were involved in a child sex ring, alleged abuse victims claim that children in foster care were being sexually abused by extreme higher ups, including the CIA, the military and politicians in Washington DC, and being covered up by those

underneath them. So they alleged that there was this big child sex ring where they take underprivileged kids out of foster care or, you know, they would groom them and then take them all over the country to, you know, perform at these parties and to be auctioned off. It's all horrendous. It's horrendous. Yeah. So they primarily centered around Lawrence King Jr, aka Larry King, which gets really

confusing when you're listening to other podcasts about it, who ran the now defunct Franklin Community Federal Credit Union in Omaha, Nebraska, and it was alleged the ring was a cult of devil worshipers involved in the mutilation, sacrifice, and cannibalism of numerous children, that was a quote. Then in 1988. Disinformation. Yeah. Right.

Then in 1989, 21-year-old Paul A. Benocchi told his attorney, John DeKamp, that he had been abducted into the sex ring as a teenager and been forced to participate in Johnny Gosh's kidnapping. He was there and he participated in it, and that Johnny had been subsequently brought into the sex ring. And Noreen later met with him and said he told her things that only her son would have known. Benocchi accused Republican Party activist and businessman Larry King Jr. of running

an underage sex ring and victimizing him since an early age. In 1990, a county grand jury found the allegations to be, quote, a carefully crafted hoax. And Paul Benocchi and others were indicted on state perjury charges. So this fucking is an insane story that actually lasts podcasts on the left. There's like three episodes about this called the Satanic government to cover because there's so much information. Yeah. Okay.

So then I put as my header, according to Noreen. And this is part of the documentary. According to Noreen, in March of 1997, 15 years after her son disappeared, she's awakened around 2.30 a.m. by a knock at her apartment door. And waiting outside is her son Johnny Gosh. This kills me. I know me too. He's now 27 years old.

He's accompanied by an unidentified man who just kind of like accompanies him and keeps quiet. Noreen invites Johnny in. She said she had immediately recognized him as her son. Johnny showed her his birthmark on his chest to prove it. She was just like, this is him. And she says that he stayed for about an hour and a half and basically confirmed her fears that he had been kidnapped and forced into a pedophile sex ring and was now out but feared

for his life. So he had gone into hiding and just wanted to come see her. Oh, I know. Yeah. So this can be all debated online. But I just, I think either this poor woman, I think it was either a hoax that was played on her because there had been others or, you know, just a fantasy that she really wanted to believe.

Yeah. Which is totally understandable. Totally. Or it fucking happened. I don't know. I mean, the idea that someone would pull a hoax like that, it's like you're the ultimate psychopath. Absolutely.

And you actually want to go face to face and fuck with a person's emotions like that. It's unbelievable. But yeah, there are sociopaths out there that would fucking get off on that shit. Clearly, I mean, how many, how many kidnapping stories have we done where there's always the call of the person who has nothing to do with it, just trying to get money? I mean, and she, you know, in the beginning, they gave out their phone number. This has been happening to them for the fucking past 15 years. There had been a ransom of $10,000 where she got, you know, went to the spot, there was

a letter addressed to her. She gave it over to police and they were like, that's nothing. She had been blown off by all these, you know, people for fucking years and all these people calling and, you know, hoaxes and. Yeah, basically, because there was no actual official arm of the law helping her, having to do it all herself kind of opened her up to all that. Totally. It's pandemonium.

And to have to constantly process and deal with those traumas over and over again on top of the original, I mean, horrible. No, it's horrible. I kind of, I did some searching online and I of course looked at our, my favorite murder Gmail and I saw a couple of people mentioned this connection to kind of, it's kind of what happens to Jacob Wetterling. He was kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered by a single suspect, which I think in this case makes way more sense, you know.

It just so happens that in the early 80s, there's a child killer operating out of Nebraska. I remember someone noticed those Nebraska plates. So in September 18th, 1983, almost exactly a year before Johnny went missing, 13-year-old Danny Joe Eberle went out on his early morning paper route in the small town of Bellevue, Nebraska. Usually Danny was accompanied by his older brother on this day he wasn't at about 8.30 a.m., calls from residents start coming in that they hadn't received their papers. I mean, can you fucking, it's just chilling.

It's like, it's a direct MO. It's exactly the same. It's the person. It's like the story that I did somewhere in the UK. I don't think it was Ireland, something in the UK, where it was the guy that just waited when young women were walking home from like village dances. Yeah. Remember that?

Yeah. He killed like a bunch of people in a row. It's just like, oh, somebody gets their idea the one way it works and then they just keep doing it over and over. That's right. And so outside of a home where Danny delivered his newspapers, his parents found his bicycle abandoned and his undelivered newspapers, there was no sign of a struggle or a kidnapping, but he was just, he had just vanished.

Days later on September 21st, 1983, searchers found the bound, gagged and partially clothed body of Danny Joe Eberle, just four miles away from his abandoned bicycle. So this was the difference, but like in the Joseph Wetterling case, he buried him. You know, so who the fuck knows? Just three months later on January 11th, 1984, this fucking badass astute preschool teacher named Barbara Weaver. She helps apprehend the murderer when she's parking her car in the parking lot at school that morning early.

She sees a fucking creepy car drive by. She sees the face of the dude and she's like, that looks like the police sketch that a witness had made. Yes, girl. He's driving by her school. She writes down his license plate and sees her looking and he gets out of his car and he threatens her with a fucking knife, but she gets out of there and fucking had his license plate number, which is amazing.

He drives off. Listen, she called the cops, obviously less than two hours later, police arrest John Jobert and his barracks at O'Foot Air Force Base at an Air Force Base, 20 year old John Jobert fit the FBI profile Robert wrestlers profile to a fucking T, including the fact that he volunteered as assistant scout master closer to children. It's so creepy. He eventually confesses to Danny's murder as well as the murders of a local boy named Christopher Walden, who was 12, who fucking disappeared and died in similar circumstances.

And then investigators are able to link him to the stabbing death of 11 year old Ricky Stenson in Oakdale, Maine. And as you and I know very well, Nebraska and Iowa share a fucking state line. That's right. They're right next to each other. Yeah. And Bellevue, Nebraska, where those murders occurred is less than a three hour drive from West Des Moines, Iowa, where Johnny Goss just appeared.

And clearly the guy's doing it in different areas. Right. Like, and he's in the Air Force, so he's probably being stationed at different places. He has to drive and shit. Right. Yeah. At 12.04 am on July 17th, 1996, he's put to death in Nebraska State Penitentiary's electric chair, and though John Jobert's only other known victims bodies were found

not far from where they were abducted, and therefore authorities were able to link them. There were bite marks and fucking similar mutilations and all kinds of awful stuff. There's never been any sign of Johnny, so they can't really, you know, link it and it's just speculation. But it's sound. I mean, the problem is there's no probably no shortage of fucking pedophiles and murderers in that area at the time, you know, and he was in prison when the second kid Eugene went missing.

So he couldn't have done that one. So maybe it was a copycat, or maybe there's the totally different fucking psychopath roaming around. Yes. As for Noreen, she and John senior divorced in 1983, and she still lives in Des Moines where she teaches yoga classes, I know, and continues her mission to help families of missing children. Back when Johnny disappeared in 1982, when a child disappeared in the U.S., authorities

responded without much care or caution. The gosh case and Noreen's plight to fight, to find her son was one, along with several other in that period, that experts say transformed and improved how law enforcement handled missing children and helped increase the likelihood of missing children being found. It's been 37 years since Johnny gosh went missing, despite her grief and a system that turned her into the enemy, Noreen gosh said, quote, you have a choice. Are you going to rise up and do something, or are you going to sit there and feel bad? She also said, you show me somebody who is in a little controversial when it comes to

making positive changes, and I'll show you someone who's never done a damn thing in their life. Oh, Noreen. And that's the story of the disappearance of Johnny gosh. Do you need a shower? I mean, I'm glad that that the milk carton thing happened, and it was an overcorrection all the way in the other direction. It needed to be.

It needed, basically what needed to happen is this matters, children matter, we can't wait 72 hours, we can't wait 48 hours, we can't wait any hours. Well, you think about all the kids, all the crazy shit that happened because of these milk cartons that were overcorrecting, but then you think about the police chief in this town who saw that, and so when a kid went missing, he actually acted, and otherwise he wouldn't have, because he was alerted to the fact that this happened. Because the dairy farmers are going to fucking rise up and be like, we'll do it if you won't do it.

That's right. We'll do it. We'll do it with Noreen. That's right. It's beautiful. That's right. Fuck your gluten allergy. Fuck your lactose intolerance.

We're taking care of shit. For real. I mean, that's what I love about it, is people just going, we don't care what the actual setup is, we're going to do something about it. And we're not going to listen to authority figures even if. To authority figures who have too much to lose by doing it wrong, therefore they don't want to do anything at all. It's like slowly watching the process.

We get to look back over all these years, because what that's been 37, God, it's so long. It's like the changes that have happened, like you going Robert wrestlers. He fit the profile, the profile almost gave me chills was like, thank God, now we're talking about him doing profiles. Now we're in the mind hunter part of the story where people are actually going, this is something we have to track and pay attention to and talk about. Well, I think that now local police are overcompensating when a kid goes missing, it's better to have

overreacted than it is to be completely wrong. Let's hope they're down fishing by the river by themselves. That's the dream, but don't fucking rely on it. And I don't think anyone really does anymore and I don't think the public would let people do that. I hope not. I hope not. Yeah.

Good one. Thank you. Oh, can I tell you something really quickly on the podcast? Yes. You just said thank God. I just said thank God for Vince Averill. Do you know that your dad and my husband text each other? Are you aware?

Vince, we're watching TV and Vince looks down at his phone and he goes, and I go, what? He goes, oh, Jim just sent me something about Budweiser, a funny joke. He's like, anytime there's anything in the news about Budweiser, we texted to each other. My dad is. I've never given Vince's phone a phone. Because my dad sends me political cartoons of Trump doing some flushing in the toilet 15 times or whatever, the latest thing, and it just stresses me out. I never know what to say where I'm like, haha, the world is burning, this is horrible.

So when I think I said that he told me to tell Vince something and I'm like, you should just text him yourself because I know you guys have each other's phone, don't be coy. And now they're just doing it. That's lovely. I think maybe Jim kind of reminds him of his dad who passed away. So yeah, they're the old school types. Yeah. Vince doesn't drink Budweiser, but he pretends to for your dad.

He pretends to drink Budweiser for my dad because he knows how much that matters. And I told you when you and I first met and first started doing this show and we first started dating. When we first started dating Vince, no, we went to that party at Pat Walsh's house and Vince and I talked and I later told you he did a thing that was so my dad where he, as he was telling me a story, his with the hand he was holding his beer, he pushed my shoulder for like effect to be like, hey, and then I was like, where am I, am I home with all my uncles?

Like it was the craziest thing. So it wouldn't surprise me if Vince is like, oh, that's how my dad used to be. Because I feel like there's just style, style similarities. This gruff fucking man. That's it. Yeah. And then remind me someday to tell you that I had a dream about our, you're in my wedding. Talk about it later.

Guess what? I hadn't done my homework. There was all this homework about it. You didn't write your bow. It was God damn it. No, you came fucking ready and I was just like, can I have another day? Can we do this wedding on a Sunday, please? Our wedding.

It was very romantic. Thanks for episode 300. That's right. We'll have a live wedding. Stream that live wedding girls. Okay. I'm going to do leftover homework from when we were on the great island of Iherland. Homework is homework, man.

Right. It got done. I just didn't want to do it because I was like, oh, I don't know. And then I found one that was, I could put more jokes into. Great. Because that's my priority. That's a good one. But now let's make Steven laugh.

No. But this is, this is one of those ones where it's like, it's a small town, like a family massacre. Oh, yeah. That's awful. Yes. And so I thought I'd tell you all about it. It's the Malahide massacre.

Uh-huh. You know this one? Is it the barn one? It's a family. But happened in a barn? No. Then I don't know it. Okay.

Okay. So this, the majority of information, so the Irish Times is the, I believe Dublin newspaper. Uh-huh. Please check that, Steven. I'm almost positive. Um, but they have a series called, or they did at least from when this article is from, called Lost Leads, which highlights lesser known stories that were featured in the Times

from as far back as 1850 now. Wow. So if you pull up one of these stories, then the side column becomes all the other ones. How about these? How about these? How about you never go to sleep ever again? It's so good. Yeah.

I mean, like, it's so, it's the best idea. So this article, uh, was written, the one about this, uh, massacre was written by a writer named Dean Rockston, another source that I used was a website called old yellow walls.org. And then of course the classic murder pedia. So this starts on Wednesday, March 31st, 1926. Okay. A man named Henry McCabe, a gardener, arrives for work at the La Mancha house in Malahide, which is just outside Dublin, um, it's 8 a.m. and, um, he's just there for work.

So this house is impressive. It's a three-story Georgian home. It's on about 30 acres of land in this, uh, wealthy seaside neighborhood. And the house is owned by the McDonald family. It's for adult siblings that live together. So it's Annie who's 56, Joseph who's 55, Peter who's 51, and Alice who's 47. Can you imagine still living with your sister? I mean, the, the fighting, the volume alone, um, double house of aggression.

There's four of them. There's four of them. Um, and they're all retired. Okay. So, um, they bought the house, um, in 1918 after retiring from their successful grocery drapery and general store in County Galway, which is where my grandpa's from, represent Galway. So I guess they, they made a ton of money and then they were like, let's go buy this

rad house. I feel like they like to party together. Maybe. I mean, the, the, from the Irish people that I know, they're very, they're very clicky and clanny. Yes. Like they would have been hanging out anyways. They might as well live together.

Yeah. Yeah. Entirely. Okay. That's how my family is. It sounds kind of fun for like a weekend. Yeah. Well, it's fun.

And then, you know, throw some beer and whiskey in there and maybe a fiddle and a story. Everyone's got their party piece. There's going to be fighting on the front lawn. That's a full weekend. You don't need money for other extracurricular activities. It all happens in the house. Okay. So, so they've all lived there, although they had recently decided to put the house

up for sale. So there had been ads about the house running in the local paper for a few days before. So when Henry gets to the house on the morning of March 31st, he notices, he thinks something's off. He notices there's smoke coming out of both chimneys and, but there's no other signs that anybody's awake. No other lights are on or anything. And then when he gets closer, he sees smoke is billowing out of a bathroom window.

So then he's like, oh shit, he runs to the back door of the house and finds that it's been broken open. So he goes inside as far as he can, before the flames are, you know, keep him from going in any further and he calls for the McDonald's, but nobody responds. So he runs into town to get the fire brigade. And on his way, he passes a neighbor, Mrs. Riley. And he tells her about the fire. She then tells a police officer and a local neighbor, the only, the only kind of neighbor

you can be. And they, so those two guys run to the house before the firefighters get there to see what's going on. And they break into a basement room. So I'm sure they went around looking in the windows and the basement room was where one of the employee, family employees, they had two employees that lived at the house. And one was this man, James Clark, who was 41 years old and his bedroom was down in the basement.

So they break up in the window. They see that he's partially dressed on his bed. They drag him out of the house to save him from the flames. But once they get him outside on the lawn, they find that he is already dead, but not from the fire. He has defensive wounds all over his forearms and a deep gash on the left side of his skull, like he's been hit with a sharp, narrow metal object, perhaps a blowpipe. Oh, what's up the staircase?

Yeah, right. So then the fire brigade arrives around 850 AM, put out the fire, but at this point the roof has collapsed, the interior is almost completely demolished. So then aside from James Clark, firefighters pull out five more bodies from the house. It's Annie, Joseph, Peter, Alice, their servant, Mary McGowan, who's 50 years old. Annie and Alice were found in the same room upstairs. Peter is found in his room. All of their bodies are charred beyond recognition.

And then Peter's body was down in a different room, and it was laying there. It had been stripped bare, and then laying on top of him was a wool singlet and a pair of pants, but just laying on top of his body like someone else put it there. And then nearby, a fire poker with a brain matter on it was next to him. Okay, so on the day of the event, cover him with clothes, we'll see. So on the day of the event, March 31st, the firefighters inspect the house to determine the cause of the fire, and they see that it had started in several spots throughout the house.

So the theory was somebody had walked around and pouring a spirit of liquor or something flammable around to light it in several places. Then the medical examiner finds trace amounts of arsenic in some of the bodies, not enough to kill, but enough to weaken them. And so basically, the theory is the killer would have had a physical advantage because he wouldn't have been able to take four adults or six adults at one time. And because the defensive wounds that were found on James Clark's body and the fact that only some of the bodies were burned, but all of them were dead, the police conclude

that everyone was murdered first, and then the fire was set intentionally to burn the evidence. Also when the house is searched afterwards, there's no valuables found inside. And these are rich people, basically. God, how terrifying to live in that area and just that horrible thing happened. Just to like, oh, it's a house fire, oh no, it's actually to murder with a house fire on top of it. And it's not just one person alone, which would be easy to fucking kill, it's like six

fucking adults. Six adults. That's terrifying. All around a house. Yeah. Okay. So as authorities search for solid leads, of course, the rumor mill kicks into high gear. So some neighbors are gossiping that the McDonald's siblings had been fighting, and maybe those

fights led to the murder. Others talk about how strange it is for four adult siblings in their late 40s, early 50s, to all be unmarried and living together. I thought maybe it was just for the time it was normal. I mean, maybe it could have been, but I think in this situation where suddenly everyone's dead, people are just like, okay, what could have happened? And then that opens to, it starts to imply that maybe the murders were born out of there was sexual abuse, there was incest, there was mental illness, there were things going

on in the house, like what are the family secrets, essentially. But close friends of the McDonald's vehemently deny any of these stories. They say they're incapable of murder and that none of that other stuff was happening. But either way, of course, local newspapers go crazy on this story, and hundreds of people travel from all over just to come and take a look at the house. Because of course, it's like, this is a six-person murder house. Totally. And we don't have TV.

And we don't have TV. And this is what human beings do. It just is. Okay. So on April 2nd, 1926, the police bring in Henry McCabe for questioning since it's obviously suspicious he's like a number one suspect because he's the gardener and he's the only person that was a regular at that house that survived, was not attacked in any way. So he gives his account of what happened in the days leading up to the fire.

The night before the fire, he claims that he sat at the kitchen table with Joe reading the paper until about 8 p.m., and then he left to attend a wake. And then he leaves the wake the next morning at 7.45 a.m., because that's how the Irish do wakes. Is that some passing out at fucking 5.30 a.m. and then waking up at 7. Hell yeah. On the couch. You get to the wake.

You have eight beers. Yeah. You sing some songs. Uh-huh. You cry. You put your arms around people. You do this. You do that.

Yeah. You do some toast. He basically stopped home to freshen up around 7.45 the next morning, and then he goes to work at the McDonald's where he finds the house fire. He tells police that he'd never really seen the family fight per se, but in the weeks prior to the fire, they did seem quieter than usual. He claims he hadn't seen Annie or Peter in a few days, but that Joe told him that they were resting in bed because they were sick.

And according to Henry, both he and the, I think it was either two or three cooks that had worked in the house over the years that Henry had worked there. They all said and noticed that Joe almost never spoke to anyone in the family. He mostly, if he was going to speak to anybody, it would be to Peter, but even then it wasn't warm or, you know, like brother to brother. It was polite and business-like. And Henry also claims that the neighborhood kids called Alice the madwoman of La Mancha, which seems totally like something kids would say.

You know how kids love talking about La Mancha. They love to make literary references because she'd sometimes run out of the house looking disheveled and acting hysterical. Oh God, that's scary. And then he also says that Peter was known to run in circles in the yard and throw himself down on the ground and laugh like a schoolboy. What? Booze baby.

That's booze. Okay. Both of them could be. But basically Henry, he tells police when McDonald's first, the McDonald's first moved in. That's two L's, not a D. Got it. When they first moved in that he had been asked by the siblings to dig a hole to bury a safe under their porch.

And then three years later, he was asked to dig the safe back up so they could return it to the store. He's telling the police this story when they're just asking like what happened at the house. And suddenly he's talking about the safe. And at one point he's searched and they find the keys to that safe in his pocket while he's being questioned by police. But other than that, Henry McCabe is a husband and father of nine. So as far as anyone knows, he's an upstanding citizen.

So after taking Henry's statement, the police deduced that maybe Peter McDonald quote, must have lost his reason during the night and having slain the whole household set the place on fire and succumbed himself to heart failure or was suffocated by the smoke or else poisoned himself. Okay. So rock solid theory of what happened. I got, I'm on board. He killed everybody and then kind of died afterward.

Or some way. In some strange way. But when the time of death is revealed for all of the victims had been dead by, had been dead since five p.m. Monday evening. So Wednesday morning is when Henry found the house on fire. Okay. So the coroner's like they've been dead for a full day, if not more. Okay.

But it's also 1922. 26. 26. I mean, couldn't the coroner be like, Oh, to my deduction, I don't, we have a pocket watch. It's definitely, it's definitely a guesstimation. And we do know that some of the bodies were charred beyond, right? But the, the, the problem with that is it directly conflicts with Henry's story that

he was sitting at the table reading the paper with Joe the night before. Got it. So then they're like, okay, well, the, even if it's not the full like two days before right, something's, something's off. Okay. Yeah. So the rumor that the pants Henry McCabe were wearing when he was first detained actually belonged to Peter MacDonald, the body that was stripped bare.

Oh, why, why would he do that and then wear it to work? Well, why would he? So this is found after a guard, a police officer, Gardie reports that Henry to ask him to have his wife lie for him and say that Peter had sent him the pants, like that he had been given the pants long ago and that he had already owned the pants, but he basically tried to get a cop to tell the wife to tell that lie. It's not gonna. And the cop's like, got you, I'm going to go and tell my boss about this real quick.

So the police then began to theorize that if Henry was the one that was responsible for these murders, that at some point during the murder of all these people, he could have somehow soiled his own pants and then basically gotten rid of those and taken Peter's pants off of him and put them on because they were really nice gray, like newer pants. Slacks. Maybe a little woolen slack. Slack. Real high though.

Yeah. It's 1926. So they come right up to the nipple. And basically, so he got rid of his pants, like let them burn in the fire. And that's why Peter's body was found with just the singlet and another pair of pants on top. They're gonna burn anyway, so you're only gonna know, I don't have to dress them. And it'll look like, oh, these were his, they're here.

So essentially, once they kind of put all of these things together, the police get Henry to sign a statement of confession. So Henry McCabe is formally charged with murder in April 20, in April of 1926. So even though he signed the statement of confession, he then pleads not guilty and maintains his innocence. So the judge is worried that the statement was coerced. His trial begins in November of 1926, a prosecutor's claim that Henry is the only logical suspect. He has access to the La Mancha house, but none of their explanations for Henry's motive

are that good. So they search Henry's house and they do find clothing with blood stains on it, but he's a gardener. So it could just easily be his and because he's out working with big shears and getting cut in brambles and bushes and stuff. Maybe. And he has nine kids. And he is constantly falling and doing all kinds of crazy shit.

Like falling out randomly, lip biting. They don't find any valuables in Henry's house. So like thinking that all the things that were missing from the La Mancha house might be found there, they don't find any. They claim that Henry was scared that he was going to lose his job if the McDonald's sold the house, but that didn't make sense because he had actually worked there for the family before the McDonald's bought it, so he had just remained the gardener. And he's going to double lose his job if the fucking occupants die.

So the defense relies on the neighborhood rumors about the McDonald's to build their case. They say it's entirely possible that either Peter or Alice McDonald could have gone mad with it. Everybody implying that they already might have been a little crazy here or there, that they had just snapped and killed everyone in the house before killing themselves. As for the arsenic, the prosecutors note that there's arsenic in one of the gardening chemicals that Henry used in the garden.

Defense comes back and is like, he does not extract arsenic from these gardening chemicals. And he didn't live in the house, so he didn't have a way to slip arsenic into their food even if he did know how to. And also the defense says poison is a woman's weapon, and it's kind of true. And so they say it's more likely Alice would have poisoned anybody if it was anybody that did it. So it's a six day trial and the judge, Justice O'Burn, tells the jury, if you are satisfied that McCabe is the only person who could have committed this crime, you must find him guilty.

But if you have any reasonable doubt, you must give him the benefit of it. So the jury goes and deliberates for 50 minutes and comes back finding him guilty of all of the murders. And he's sentenced to death by hanging. I don't think he did it. Okay. So on December 9th, 1926, he's taken to the gallows. When asked if he has any last words, he says, all I have to say is God forgive them, I am

the victim of bribery and perjury. So Henry maintains his innocence all the way till the end, but after his hanging, some damning facts are revealed about his life before. Come on, ma'am, I was fucking rooting for you. No, I know. Look, a lot of people were including that judge who seemed like this all could be just like they want to get this taken care of. So these are all things that they couldn't talk about in during the court case.

But in his youth, he moved to England where he had several run-ins with the law and they weren't defined particularly, but he did serve prison time for them. Well, who among us? I mean, and then when he was released, he moved to Birmingham and there he started dating a woman, but he soon arrested for attempting to murder her. Don't do that. He serves another 15-month sentence for attempted murder and then eventually moves to just outside Dublin.

Okay. So none of this information can be used during the trial because of the code of criminal procedure that disallows the court from using prior charges to argue their case. So basically, some people are kind of like, well, then this is almost like if people were worried or it was up in the air or whatever, well, at least we have these prior convictions that maybe support that. But maybe some people aren't sleeping that well. Maybe some people still aren't sure and then seven years later, in 1933, a local boy named

Denning, last name is Denning, he's digging in the garden of a house on Church Road in Malahide when he digs up two silver watches. One is inscribed to James Clark, who was the man who lived in the basement and the other is inscribed to Jay McD. It said that when Henry was alive, he was the gardener who planted the shrubbery at the house on Church Road in that particular garden. So he's like, I got to do something with this shit and fucking bury the loot. He buried that loot all over, probably not just in this house.

And because you know that thing where people are guilty and they start talking because they think they're smarter than everybody. So he tells the story of burying the safe, which basically- He tries to mislead them and have them go in a different direction by over talking. Yes. But I think people don't understand that in your subconscious, the reason you think of the things you're talking about, it's like you're giving yourself away. And the idea that he's talking about burying the safe, which is like clearly he knew there

were valuables, they had money, they had stuff hidden. But also it's like burying stuff, like it's a whole area that he wanted to talk about. And anyway, so it's not, it's not the hardest of evidence, but like it would be interesting to know if they found any more stuff buried in yards around Malahide. Let's grab a fucking metal detector and head there. The detector is season three. And that's the harrowing story of the Malahide massacre. Oh, fuck.

Boom. See, I was going for them being the family, either one of them murdering everyone else or them, not them, killing themselves because I don't think the servants would have done it as well if it was like the four siblings, maybe. But I definitely thought it was the guy who had the clothes laid on top of him. Yeah. Because it clearly he was the last. Right.

And maybe he like wanted some modesty, so he covered himself up and then the end. But now I don't think so anymore. And it's interesting because back then they just had to kind of, there was so little science of any kind, plus everything's burnt. So they just have to go through and like really piece stuff together. And you can absolutely see and we know that it happens all the time. It's like, oh, the gardener, the guy that the reported it, pull in whoever sent him to the gallows.

Bullshit. Yeah. End this whole thing. But like the idea that he had the safe, the keys to the safe in his pocket. He was wearing one of the dead men's pants. Like there were so many things that were just like, dude, a ton of his little kid's teeth blood all over his other pants that they found. Why don't you just wash those pants?

Why do your kids teeth keep falling out of their fucking head? Why don't you keep backup pants in the gardener shed where they should be? That's a good lesson to learn. Always keep backup pants. I mean, you know that I live by it. As my great fear in the world is something happens to my pants and I have to borrow pants from somebody whose pants are too small. It's like a nightmare I live with.

I didn't know that. Yeah. Keep those sweats in the backseat. I feel like 200 episodes in and we're still learning stuff about each other. God, it's so fresh. Good job. That was great. That was awesome.

Thank you. I mean, it really was a bit of a... No, that was so fun. I mean, it was not fun. This is not fun, everyone. This is not. This is a... But it's interesting also because when you're in a place like that where it's so...

Everything has that small village, small town feel where the influence of what people say in the... It's the same thing. We're in gosh being like, oh, she's crazy, where once you get the public opinion stirred up of like, oh, you know those people in the house. They all killed each other, where it's just like, oh, yeah, they're not around to defend themselves. If they were private people, then you can kind of say anything after the fact.

Crazy. Man. That's it. That's it. We decided our fucking hooray is going to be you guys. It... You said it like Janet. All of you.

Out there. Thanks so much. And the ether. Listening. This life has turned out really fucking insane and unexpected and not at all what I had in mind four years ago for the rest of my existence and it's completely changed that and I am so not just, you know, not just like material things and how crazy this is and like fucking our book being on Audible's top fucking audiobooks of the 2019, like not just shit like that,

but like the fact that there are people who really care about us, who we don't know, who are out there and how lucky we are that we help people go to therapy and get help and get on medication and deal with their mental health, we feel very fucking grateful and I really can't believe that we get a chance to do this with our lives and I am so... I'm honored. Nice. And so 200 episodes in is pretty fucking incredible. It's pretty amazing.

I think we should also take this time to thank Stephen Ray Morris. Yes. Who has been here since... Right? Like you were... You came in in 16? 17. It was Stephen.

You came in such... we needed you so much and you really... and we made you do so much stuff for us and you really kept us going in those early times where we didn't understand what was happening, we couldn't wrap our arms around what was happening and it was so great to have you. It's been so great to have you this whole time. Yes, Stephen. Thank you. Thank you.

And what the kids are say is ride or die. Nice. That's right. Nice one. I love it. I know what's very satisfying to me is that I feel like the things that we did early on which were almost like us being like, oh, Brené Brown, we're learning how to be more vulnerable, we're learning how to be honest about ourselves, we're learning how to say

what we think is the most shameful thing about ourselves and then share that so that maybe the shame will dissipate and instead of that just being like a weird exercise between you and I like uncomfortable Thanksgiving or on our podcast just as a test or whatever. It really was the, I don't know, the fertilizer that grew this beautiful garden where I spent a large portion of my life believing that I could never let anybody into that vulnerable side or that that would be a huge mistake or weakness or the worst and instead it is because it's been this ridiculously unbelievable lesson in how that is the way to go like that that really is this kind of thing where we all go, hey, guess what?

Everyone's mentally ill. They really are and the people who can't admit it the most usually have the biggest secrets and the biggest sicknesses and we don't have to be cowed by anyone. We don't have to be made to feel bad about ourselves by anyone. We get to choose how we feel and we get to choose how we deal with how we feel. And so, yes, we, you know, there's a lot of talk about like we're scared of this and we're scared of that and God forbid you go to the forest and all those things that we've done that's been over the top and reactionary and us telling horrible stories and then trying

to think of solutions to those stories. But really at the end of the day, underneath all that, what I think I've been learning at least is the opposite, which is opening up, being honest, being direct, trying to be like, oh, here's the thing I really fear and is it a real fear or is it just this thing that actually holds me back and like, and maybe if I just throw it out there, people, at least I can get a little relief and then maybe somebody else gets a little relief. I think the word of the day is that it's led to so much connection and that is such a beautiful thing and I'm in awe of it and we, you and I have felt it and I think everyone else has

felt it with each other and if that's our fucking legacy, then I'm a fucking man. That's what we need in life is more connection. And even if it's scary and you have to be vulnerable about it and you have to like show your ugly bits and I have B.O. right now and like all that fucked up shit, all that fucked up shit. There's someone else on the other side going, yeah, I have that too, let's be friends. Let's be friends and also let's not feel so bad because I am a product of the horrible Hollywood system that I beat my head against for 20 years until this fucking podcast and

all of a sudden it's like, boom, it all blows open. You have to be vulnerable, otherwise it won't work. It won't work and it's audio so like it doesn't like, you know, it's a whole different, it's a whole different discipline, I think and it's maybe even a harder discipline because I've gone on a billion diets, but this thing is a whole, it's a whole different approach and so thank you for giving a shit, for listening and participating and being with us and thank you to the people who get us and know our intentions because we do absolutely fuck up so much and talk about things that then we only find out afterwards, you know, offend

people or aren't the right way to think about things or whatever. There's so many people that listen to this podcast and come back in going, I know you don't know this and I know you would want to know this and here's this piece of information. It's people giving us the benefit of the doubt which we are honored to have and we will be careful with and take care of. Yeah, try our best. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.

And be vulnerable to not being perfect and to change. And you guys, thank you so much, 200 fucking episodes. Man, so crazy. Thank you. It's a life-changing thing you've given us. Yeah, and thank you for, yeah, this success is because of all you guys participating and wanting to. And you know, here's to at least 50 more, let's say 25, can we say 25?

Let's promise 25 and let's aim for 50. Come on. Great. At least until next summer. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Well, then stay sexy. And don't get murdered.

Bye. For the 200th time. Yay. Elvis, you want a cookie? Yeah. Elvis, you want a cookie? Yeah, you want a cookie?