My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 210 - Every Plan Is A Bad Plan

Episode Date: February 20, 2020

Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Mary Phagan and revenge murder of Leo Frank, and the Wonderland murders.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And welcome. It's my favorite murder. The maxi sewed. With wings. The darned things got winged. Ultra protection for your heaviest days. For your heaviest blue liquid days. For your Thursdays.

That's Karen Kilgarov. That's Georgia Hartstark. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It was easy. It was fun.

It felt right. We had a great time. Oh, remember? Remember? Remember when I introduced you? The old switcheroo. We talk about your mug. I'm drinking out of, this is actually Stephen's mug that he brought to the office.

And someone made it for him when he was working on the great malls, Molly McAleer's podcast, Mother May I Sleep With Podcast. And someone hand made it. It's just straight up sharpie. Hold on a second. Okay. So it's a sharpie on one side that says Mother May I Sleep With Podcast. And it's a design that looks like a butt with a rainbow coming out of it.

It looks like a butt. And you drink it that way. So I have to see the butt all the time? Yeah. I guess because I'm right handed. You use it all the time. It's my mug. It's my favorite.

It's Mr. Jodiarius. And I thought, I didn't really know how it got here. But every time it's, Stephen and I were talking about it, it's the perfect shape for coffee because it's more than a coffee cup size. But it's not so big. Your coffee gets cold. It's just like the perfect extra amount. But as I was reading these sides, I looked at the bottom and it says best mustache in

the pod casting at the bottom. Wow. Just kind of like- Kevin, you made it for yourself. Admit it. Oh, you caught me. Oh, no. Oh, shoot.

What a bummer that Stephen can never shave his mustache now. It's just like, you're a stepdad forever. What if Stephen shaves his mustache and he just has a white skin mustache underneath because he's had a mustache for so long? What if he shaves his mustache and there's just a mustache underneath? Do you know I've never seen my father without a mustache except for in pictures? Wow. He's always had exactly that mustache always.

Wow. Except for in the 80s, it was slightly longer on the outside. Of course. And then I think they were required to have them. It's like an extra protection against the flames. Watch that lip. Yeah, you know that if your mustache starts sinning, that's when you know to get out. It's your personal fire alarm.

If your lip gets hot, you're in too far. That's right. Yeah. That's the old fireman saying. Here's to mustaches. Yay. All sorts. Do you have any?

What do you have? Well, we have an exciting announcement. Let's just do that first. Let's fucking do it. Because we're stoked that we finally get to announce a new podcast. You guys. Coming to the Exactly Right Podcast Network. Finally.

Oh, this is a good one. This is a joy. So exciting. Yeah. It's in the comedy chat form. Yeah. A column. Our friend, the great Bridger Weinerger, who you might know him from Twitter.

He has a hilarious Twitter account. Mm-hmm. He's written on all your favorite shows. And he has a podcast that he's going to be doing on Exactly Right called I Said No Gifts. Yeah. When you brought this to me and you were like, Bridger wants to do a show. And I know you've been friends with him for many years. Uh-huh.

And you told me the premise. I was like, absolutely fucking literally. It's green lit. Yeah. It's such a good idea. It's so good. It's called I Said No Gifts. But all of his guests are required to bring him a gift.

Then he says, I Said No Gifts. And then basically the whole podcast is about gift giving, worst birthday, presents, best bring. Yeah. Like all the basically all the anecdotal stuff that comes up around giving and receiving presents. It's so smart. It's so smart.

It's really funny. And he's got all kinds of great, you know, people on his podcast as guests. It's just going to be hilarious and wonderful. And the theme song, he had his friend right then record the theme song. No big deal. Amy Mann. Amy fucking Mann. He went to Amy Mann and he said, I need my cheers theme song for my podcast.

Yeah. And she said, no problem. And then wrote a song that I honestly, since I was, it was played for me. I've been humming. So anyway, we are going to play the trailer for this new podcast for you at the end of this episode. Yeah. So stick around at the end and the launch date is March 12th.

So we're less than a month out. Yeah. Is it on iTunes listed yet? Can you subscribe? I believe by the time this comes out, you will be able to subscribe so that when it launches, it'll come right in your feet. Great. So subscribe to get ready.

It's going to be every week on Thursday. So you can stop listening to this fucking podcast and replace it with Bridger's podcast. Or you can double up or double up even listen to this and get bummed out. And then listen to Bridger's. And then relax. Yeah. Because it's a delight and he's the funniest. Yeah.

I said no gifts. Yay. So excited about that. And hopefully we'll be able to start doing this every month for you guys and announcing a new podcast. Yes. That's the dream. And there's another one coming up on, I said no gifts tale that we're also very excited

about, but it's too early. Yeah. But there's more. So stop it. We're so excited. Speaking of the exactly right network and the podcasts that are on it, we had the pleasure of hanging out with Laura and Brooke, the, the creators and hosts of the Fall Line podcast that has their new season out right now.

Yep. God, they were fucking incredible. They're the best and they're, they're doing true crime right. Yeah. Over on that show. Yeah. Totally. If you haven't listened to the Fall Line podcast, you do yourself a favor and go get into

the work they're doing. They are, it's, Laura is a college professor and she actually started teaching a class in podcasting. She was telling us about it. Which is amazing. A great, like a researcher and she's so smart and like goth and cool and I love it and clearly can do everything. And then Brooke is a grief counselor.

So when they go and talk to the people that they're talking to about these cases, right, the survivors and the victims families and the families, they have a qualified person that's there that knows how to have these conversations that they're the real deal. And it was so cool. They have all these great ideas for upcoming seasons and other things they're going to work on. And we're so, we're just so honored that they're on our network. Totally.

And that we get, you know, we get to do stuff with them. Yeah. It's so rad. It's so cool. They're such incredible women. Speaking of incredible women, per cast, that was rude. I'm sorry, Stephen. I didn't mean it like that.

I didn't mean it like that. I said it. Michael, Sarah, she's great. That's Sarah. Sarah's very talented. Sarah's great. This week, none other than Jackson fucking Galaxy is on the per cast, which for us cat people is like the get of the century.

I mean, truly. Yeah. Pete, I can stop now. It's, it's over. Jackson Galaxy. That's incredible. Now it's time for the dog cast. Yes.

Lizard cast. Lizard. Lizard. Oh, right. That transition right into Jurassic Park. And then this podcast will kill you. Their episode this week is called whoop there it is about the whooping cough, which is just so clever.

Oh my God. It's so much fun. I love taking credit for what they're doing. I love taking credit. We own you. It's our thing. Actually, we did it. We did it.

It's our thing. Yeah. We're very proud of our little burgeoning family that we have here. You know who I'm proud of? Who? Well, a couple people. But I'm proud of a listener named Tiffany Colant. Colant.

There's an accent on her name. And I'm proud of her because she sent me and you, but you didn't see it on Twitter, a tweet that said, is that little baby G hard stark I spotted in an episode of Dharma and Greg. And there you are. That's me. The tiniest Georgia hard stark. I've watched this clip now 20 times. Yes.

Look at you. Look at first of all, you're acting so casual. I'm an extra. You're so 90s. I'm extra as an extra. You're so extra and you're so 90. Can I say how excited? I remember everything about it.

I remember what I was wearing that day. And it was like, I was new to LA. I wanted to be an extra. I was going to like be around the scene and I got this Dharma and Greg thing. And then I got sat next to the woman who had lines. Yes. You're in the shot. I know.

That's you. And you have like weird 90s braids in your hair. I must be 19 there. Look at my cheeks. They're like their baby cheeks. Yes. Oh yeah. You look 12 years old.

I do. How old were you? Like 18 or 19. Okay. I'm going to retweet this right now. Do it. Okay. That was really exciting.

That was an exciting moment in my life. Dharma is holding a baby and you only look a little bit older than the baby in this. There's also, if you can see, there's an episode of the TV show Clueless. And then in the movie, the sleepover, right? Yeah. Okay. It's called sleepover. Okay.

It's a movie from 2004. And I just walk by in one scene. It was really exciting. You're not sleeping over anyway? No, I'm not sleeping over anymore. No sleeping bags for you. I just ate a bunch of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at craft services because I had no money for food.

I just sat there all day. And there were no like laptops yet, so it wasn't like you could just go work. No. No. You're waiting for 12 hours. That was back when you had to just sit there with your thoughts. It was a terrible fucking time. Or like talk to other people, which was my nightmare.

Or manage being on diet pills and try not to scream all the time, which was my reality. Oh my God. That's so great. I love that someone saw that. Yeah. Tiffany, she's at Tiffany Jade Co. Well, you're retweeting it. She nailed it.

That's on my. Great job. She nailed it. Thank you. Great job, everybody. Really one of my proudest moments. It should be. What I like is that you do this thing.

And I did this myself once when I was in a background actor in a Mr. Show sketch. It was a classroom sketch. And I looked down almost the entire time. And what I didn't realize at the time and I see now is it is a way, it's actually a way of upstaging people. When you look down like you're not in the sketch. Oh wow. It's.

And I also used to bite my fingernails during scenes, which is another way of like chewing up the scenery behind people. It's very. It's almost like pointing at your own face. It is. And of course, I didn't realize I was doing it, but in a retrospect, I was just like, oh my God. I didn't know how to like pretend to watch a movie.

How do you pretend to watch a movie? You don't. You watch that movie. Right. Even though you're staring at an audience. Right. Yeah. It was so awkward.

And I had to do a voiceover thing today and I was very excited about it. It was super cool thing and maybe I'll talk about it later when it actually comes out. But I was so honored and excited and it's that thing where the second it starts, you're like, I don't know how to say words anymore. Totally. It's all I've been doing for the past four years. I've had nothing but practice wearing cans and talking into a microphone. And the second it started, I was like, how are you today?

Like everything came out. It's so awkward. Terribly. I love those amazing voices on that amazing show, Craig of the Creek, which I love them. Oh, Craig of the Creek on the Cartoon Network. It's such a good show. Or the witches. And yeah, as soon as we got in there and they're like, here's your character.

I'm like, I don't know what her voice sounds like. And now it just sounds like me. Right. Because I have no other voices. I know. I mean, yeah. You're so good at it, though. I love watching you do it.

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I love to do it, but it's very, it's the thing where I have to tell myself so many times before I arrive, you're not going to get it right the first time. And that's good. Totally. Let them tell you how they want you to do it. Yeah.

My thing is, because I had never had any training doing anything, and I was usually on some kind of white drug, my thing would be like, I didn't do it right the first time. And then I would be so weirdly freaked out. I wouldn't allow anything. Or it's like, if you get hired for a part, the people that are doing the show want input on what you're going to do. Okay. So you're not expected to deliver perfectly and walk away.

They want to be able to tell you, hey, can you adjust this way and that way? And the whole job is to be open to that and then be able to give them what they're asking for. Which is like, it took me, I think, 24 years to figure that out. Yeah. Little Baby George is still learning that. It's hard, though, because you don't, like, the idea is like, is everyone happy immediately? Yeah.

It's like, they won't be. It's fine. That's life, too. Yeah. Everyone wants to give you notes and it's not going to be perfect the first time. And just to wrap that up with a magic three, nobody wants to be the last to know. That's the most valuable piece of information I learned the first big job I had is that you have to figure out who is, if they're the last to know, can they like light you

up? Can they get you in trouble and tell that person first? Because no one wants to be the last person to know that like either something went wrong or something's changed or whatever. So figure out who you tell because you can't not tell anybody and you have to make sure the people, like, because no one wants to be the last person to know, no one wants to not know something. So you have to, who are you looping in and how quickly?

Okay. It's the key to life. Got it. Tucking that away. Total sidebar. I didn't declare that sidebar and it couldn't have been less relevant. Speaking of stuff. Right.

So I read an article that I was really excited about this week that the LA County prosecutors, they're teaming up with this company called Code for America who are using a new technology to wipe out as many as 66,000 old marijuana convictions. Are you serious? Yeah. Here, let me read you a quote from it. Oh, I just got a weird chill. Isn't that amazing?

So like, yes, we legalized pot, but now all these people still have these convictions, whether they're misdemeanors or not, for pot, you know, petty pot crimes. What? Yeah. And so their quote was, the dismissal of tens of thousands of old cannabis related convictions in Los Angeles County will bring much needed relief to communities of color that disproportionately suffered the unjust consequences of our nation's drug law and that was laws and that was District Attorney Jackie Lacey said that.

So they're wiping them out using technology because I guess they had to do them manually one by one when someone would write in and be like, can you, you know, it's a law that we do that, but you have to write it first. So now they just use technology to wipe out a ton of them. Isn't that amazing? That's the best. That's incredible. It's just like getting a job.

Just as a job. Yeah, all that's happening. Yeah, it's necessary. It's happening and voices are being heard, which might not be fast enough. Yeah. It's definitely not fast enough for the people that sat in jail for years. I mean, I have definitely read articles here and there about people that like, they got arrested for pot and then they were given eight years in jail or so, you know, the destruction

that has happened and can't ever be fixed, but, but people speaking up and being like, it has to change and it should start changing now. And we voted luckily here in California that, you know, pot should be legal and the people in the past who have been, you know, I don't know, the butt of those. Well now that all pot stores look like Apple stores and it couldn't be more accepted and it's happening all the time. It's like, well, if that's the case, then you have to do right somehow. Totally.

And so someone's actually doing it. Yeah. It's how exciting. It made me really happy. A little ray of light in this fucked up world. Very nice. Good job. Yeah.

Anything else? I don't think so. Okay. I think it's time, right? It's time. And I think you're first. I think I am too. Steven nodding.

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Also get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Aresha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely

true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path.

Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. This story I'm doing this week was suggested by a listener named Ariel Giraldi. She gmailed it in. And it is one of the oldest and most controversial murders in the state of Georgia. Why? It's the murder of Mary Fagan. Ready for this?

Okay. Okay. I've never heard of it. Even when we did story. We did shows in Atlanta. Yeah. I never found it. It's crazy.

Okay. Wow. So a bunch of this information is from a New York Times article from 1982 that was written by Wendell Rawls Jr. Also Wikipedia, all that's interesting.com. So good. I think in the past I've been calling it all things interesting.com. It's all that's interesting.com.

Yeah. Sorry for the mistake. All that's interesting.com is. And a website called TheVintageNews.com, which is one of those old news sites. So we start, it's Sunday, April 27th, 1913. And a man named Newt Lee, who's the factory night watchman, you know it. I almost did this in Atlanta. Yes.

Georgia just threw her hand in the air. Oh. I was like, that name sounds so familiar. I started working on it in Atlanta and then was like, this is not a live show episode. Right. Right. It's, no, it's heavy. Can you imagine?

It's so heavy. And it's very heavy. Right. Rationally and otherwise. And in every way. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So Newt Lee is the factory night watchman at the National Pencil Company in Atlanta, Georgia. So before we get into the horror of this, I just want to talk about how much I love pencils. When I was a child, for some reason, like in second grade, they showed us one of those weird, let's go to the pencil factory and they showed how pencils are made. Totally. And I get Mr. Roger style. Yes.

I remember it. Like, all the pencils are rolling out, rolling all together and rolling and then their things get put on whatever, but like completely automated. I've always been a fan of the Dixon Ty, Condoroga pencil, classic number two, writing with a pencil is like my favorite, most satisfying way of writing. Thoughts on mechanical pencils? Love them. On board.

You know, when I have a mechanical pencils, when I go take my crossword puzzle on a plane. That's right. I've seen you, I've been with you as we scoured Hudson Niz's and Hudson Niz's until you could find you a mechanical pencil. I need a mechanical pencil because I don't have a sharpener for a classic pencil. Of course, I didn't bring my own classic pencil. Even though I have drawers of all kinds of, do you want to hear the song I made up? I don't care what the next couple of words are, the answer is yes.

Do I want to hear the song you made up? Yes. Just an example of how much time I spent alone as a child. I made up this song, Dixon, Dixon, Ty, Condoroga. Wow. It's not an original tune, I don't think. But I used to, that was always the pencil that was in my hand. You loved your pencil so much that you wrote a song for it.

I love it and my favorite is when you find a pencil and usually it'll be like at a doctor's office or somewhere public and it's a classically sized pencil that has been used down to the nub. Oh, you want like a little guy. A little guy that's been used by everybody because when do you ever see that? No, you don't. Usually pencils, when you get halfway, they break in the goodbye or it's brand new. God, yeah.

But when you get, when someone has been so conscientious as to use the whole pencil. Or like that was their pencil and it meant like they loved it so much. Yes. It's a thing. I love it. It's very old-fashioned. No, I. But it really is like.

I remember the pencil machine in our library when you got a quarter and you could get a pencil and it was like. You could buy a pencil? Yeah. And like one of those little like candy machines. Yeah, yeah. It's very exciting. Oh, that's cool.

You should get one for your house. I'm getting that for you for your birthday. Don't tell me. Steven remind me to get Karen that for her birthday. Edit that out of my memory, Steven. Also that just made me think of the pencil, the affixed pencil sharpeners for the oldest of people. Oh, yeah.

Affixed on the wall in the grammar school. So you had to walk up and go, I still have those in my house. I haven't posted. I have a couple old pencil sharpeners. Do you really? And it's like so kitschy and cute to just put a pencil sharpener up in your house. Yeah. People are like, why do I have a fucking pencil sharpener?

And you're like, well, I'm, I'm an influencer. I'm a, I'm a lifestyle influencer on Instagram and I have quirky things everywhere. I'm retro. And I like old things made of lead, paints, pencils, gasoline, whatever it takes just plain lead. Okay. Just now I'm thinking of there was once a, and now I can't remember if this was on Tumblr or if it was on Twitter.

Someone did a portraiture of used pencils. It was a series of photos of those kinds of pencils I was describing that were like used down to the nub. If anyone finds out, let me know please. Okay. Anyway, if they can find my fucking Dharma and Greg episode, they can find that fucking pencil. Did you lose your shit when you saw that?

It was just like, I didn't, at first I didn't know what I was looking at because I'm, as you well know, the results of this, I skim things for like a noun I recognize and then I just keep going. So when I was looking, I was like, what, I'm not going to watch an old episode of Dharma go. What? And it took me like eight seconds to realize what was happening because I remember you saying it, but I didn't remember it was Dharma and Greg that you were on.

Yeah. Hilarious. Got it. Okay. Back to us. Fun time sidebar over. Now we're back into this horrible story. Right.

And we're at the National Pencil Company in Atlanta, Georgia. Okay. This is where it all started. So the Night Watchman goes down to the factory's basement around 3 a.m. to use the bathroom. And as he's leaving when he's done, he spots something in the back of the basement by the incinerator. So he goes over to inspect it and he realizes it's the body of someone he knows, 12 year old factory worker, Mary Fagan.

Oh, awful. Okay. So let's talk about Mary and Mary's life. So she was born on June 1st, 1899 to a family of tenant farmers in Georgia. Her father dies before she's born. I'm sorry. Oh, no, that's right. Her father dies before she's born.

And so she's basically raised by a single mother named Francis and Mary out of Georgia. In 1907, they moved to East Point, which is a neighborhood in Southwest Atlanta. And Francis opens a boarding house. And then two years later in 1909, Mary drops out of school and takes a part-time job at a textile mill to help support the family. She's 10 years old. Which is kind of the norm back then, right? Completely the norm back then.

In 1912, her mom remarries a man named John Coleman and the whole family moves into Atlanta proper on the spring of that year, Mary, 12-year-old Mary takes a job at the National Pencil Company because she's still helping the family out. So and then just quick historical context. In the early 1900s, Atlanta basically is switching from being an agricultural community into like the Industrial Revolution and the factory boom. So there's factories pop up everywhere. And the working conditions are harsh, sometimes dangerous, and almost all factories rely on

child labor. A group called the Populus Party and other bigoted Southerners blame Jewish business owners for exploiting children. But the reality was, as reported in the 1913 Atlanta, Georgia, the state of Georgia's standards regarding child workers were the worst in the country. So factory owners of every faith, ethnicity, and background made it constant practice to hire children as young as 10 years old. And in Southern cotton mills at the turn of the century in 1900, 25% of the employees

were under the age of 15, and half of those were under the age of 12. That's insane. So it was completely common practice. It had nothing to do with who owned it or what religion they were. It was what everyone was doing because children were, of course, much easier to manage than adults. They would do whatever you told them, wouldn't question their bosses. They were small so they could get into things and if things were broken, they were just

used. And they were cheaper, probably. And they were cheaper. Much cheaper, yeah. So Mary's job at the pencil factory is operating a knurling machine, K-N-U-R-L-I-N-G. That's the thing that puts the rubber erasers into the metal ends of the pencils. And she works in the metal room, which is on the second floor, and it's called the tipping department.

She works 55 hours a week and she earns 10 cents an hour. Wow. Yeah. So she basically, for all that, makes about five bucks a week. So after working at the pencil factory for about a year, there's a shortage of brass sheet metal and Mary gets laid off. So around noon on April 26, 1913, which is a Saturday, Mary goes to the factory to pick up her last paycheck for $1.20 from the factory superintendent, Leo Frank.

So Leo Frank has come, moved down to Atlanta from New York City. He graduated Cornell. Now he's here to run his uncle's pencil factory. And so he's there giving out paychecks on a Saturday. Basically when Newt comes upon Mary's body, he calls the police immediately, they arrive, they see Mary's head is bruised and battered, her face is scratched, her clothes are disheveled and torn, her dress is pushed up above her waist and her petticoat is torn, which indicates she could have been raped.

A strip of the petticoat has been torn off and wrapped around her neck along with a seven foot cord. And she's covered in dirt and soot. So she's not only been strangled to death, but the police, it's clear that she put up a fight there in the basement. The police look around the rest of the basement for clues. They see there's a lock on the sliding door at the top of the basement service ramp that's been tampered with.

And there's bloody fingerprints on the door. And there's a metal pipe nearby, which the police theorized that was used as a crowbar. There's footprints in the dirt that lead from the elevator shaft to the spot where the body was found, but in investigating, the police just walk over those footprints over and over so they can't be identified or even measured. Leo Frank is called in. He gets there about seven in the morning. He speaks with police.

They say later on that he looks pale and nervous and he's rubbing his hands together and trembling. When they say Mary's name, Leo responds that he's not familiar with it, that he would have to check the books to identify her, other than that he cooperates with police, gives them a tour of the entire factory. He cooperates with police and shows them around the entire factory. So when at the crime scene where the body is, the police discover there are two notes that are written. They're riddled with spelling errors, and it's kind of hard to make sense of either

of them. The first note reads, quote, he said he would, W-O-O-D, love me, land down, play like the night witch did it, but that long, tall, black Negro did boy his slef, S-L-E-F. So it's hard to even know what anyone meant by that. The second note reads, quote, ma'am, M-A-M, that Negro hire down here did this. I went to make water and he pushed me down that hole, a long, tall Negro black, that who it was, long, slim, tall Negro, I write while play with me. So the idea they believe is that someone's trying to make it look like Mary was leaving

notes to say who did this to her before she died. So they interpret the phrase night witch is from the first note to mean night watch. Newt Lee, who is the night watchman and an African American, when they read the note says, quote, it looks like they're trying to lay it on me, which clearly it did. Because of the note, police arrest him that morning for the murder of Mary Fagan. So they immediately are like, you're here, we read these notes, you know who this little boy was. You found her, yeah.

But even with Newt Lee and custody, the police still are suspicious of Leo Frank. So the next day, Monday, April 28th, 1913, Leo comes into the station with his lawyer and he gives the police a written deposition stating what he did on the day of Mary's death. So he writes, Mary Fagan came into his office between 1205 and 1210 p.m. that day to pick up her check. Then at 4 p.m., Newt Lee arrives for work, but Leo tells him to come back later because he still needs to be in the office.

Then Leo says he leaves the office around 6 p.m., at which point he sees Newt returning to start his night shift. Leo also tells police that there were actually gaps in Newt's time card for the night of Saturday and the morning of Sunday. Leo agrees to let police examine his body for cuts or injuries that he may have sustained if he had struggled with Mary. They find nothing on him. They also search his home.

They don't find bloody clothes or any kind of evidence of wrongdoing at his home. But they are still suspicious of him and they basically say he seems nervous. So after Leo gives his deposition, he meets with private investigators from the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. So he hires them to help prove his innocence, but they're bound to terms with the police. So it requires they give any and all findings of their investigation to the police. So they're like a separate outfit. Yes.

And they can help you. You can hire them as a private detective, but they're also bound to the local police officers and have to give them the information as well. Everything they find, they have to turn over, even if it incriminates their clients. Because basically the Pinkertons used to operate like when there wasn't necessarily the law around, if there was no sheriff and no police chief or no police station, whatever the word is, the Pinkertons would come in and they would just do it. But then it was like, well, whoever's paying you, you know, it became like in the Wild

West times. And basically telling you this based on three cowboy shows I've watched, but it's like they would come in and kind of do it, but they, it was just based on, it was like rich people, justice. Yeah. Anyway, everybody correct me on that, please. I'd love to learn more about the Pinkertons, but that's from what I've watched. It's like you can hire them to come in, but then, you know.

Yeah. So like you wouldn't hire them if you thought they were going to find anything incriminating against you. It wouldn't make sense. Yeah. Because I bet you Leo Frank knew that that was the agreement. Right. Right.

Yeah. Just get out there and get that information. Yeah. Okay. So the following day, Tuesday, April 29th, at 11 a.m., Detective John Black goes to Newt Lee's house to look for evidence. There he finds a shirt with blood smeared on it up to the armpits in the bottom of Newt's burn barrel.

But because of the weird way that the blood is smeared and because this shirt, quote, smells unused, Detective Black suspects that this is fake evidence that's planted by Leo Frank and his defense team. Oh, shit. That's quite an assumption. Yeah. Quite an assumption. So I think that in reading that, it kind of indicated to me, clearly it's like, you

have it out for this guy. For your own reasons. You're going to twist any evidence to look bad for him. But it was actually very smart of Leo Frank to hire Pinkerton's to be like, yeah, I'm going to need more than just the locals here. Yeah. Okay. So half an hour later, the police arrive back at the pencil factory and arrest Leo Frank

just based on this. Yeah. Yeah. So then on Wednesday, April 30th, the coroner's inquisition is held. Leo testifies he repeats his account of what he did on the day of Mary's disappearance. He has a few witnesses corroborate his story. But some of the former female employees of Leo's testify that Leo came on to them when they worked for him.

And another young man testifies that he heard Mary Fagan, quote, complaining about Leo. This still don't have any hard evidence on Leo about this crime or on Newt about the crime, but they keep both in custody. Okay. So the next day is Thursday, May 1st, and some pencil factory workers alert the police when they see factory janitor Jim Conley washing what they claim to be blood out of a work shirt. Oh, shit.

They put it together that Jim had also been at the factory on the day of Mary's murder. Jim Conley is also black and the crime scene notes indicate that the murderer might have been black. So police arrest Jim Conley. Jim tells them it wasn't blood on his shirt. It was rust. So the police examine it and they see that he's right. But they keep him in custody.

They're just fucking arresting everyone all over the place. Everyone that isn't white. You, you, you. Yeah. Everyone thinks he's obviously Jewish, right? He's Jewish. Yeah. So in May, Jim Conley gives his formal statement.

He tells police that he had spent that Saturday, the day of Mary's death, shooting dice and drinking at saloons. But some witness to say that they did see Jim in the lobby of the factory that day. Police also discover that Jim can read and write and he could have written those notes left behind at the crime scene. When they test his spelling, they discover that he makes the same spelling errors that are on the notes. Oh, no.

Yeah. So the police are now suspicious of Jim and on May 24th, Jim admits to writing the notes, but he says that Leo Frank made him do it. And over the next few weeks, Jim is interrogated more and he ends up giving three more statements to the police, changing his story slightly every single time, but he's always taking to the same concept, which is Leo Frank murdered Mary Fagan, then coerced Jim Conley into helping him hide it. Okay, so in the final story that Jim gives police, he claims Leo bumped into him on the

street, told him to follow him back to the factory. And once he was there, that Leo had him hide in a wardrobe while two women visited Leo's office. After the women leave, Leo tells Jim to write the murder notes, then gives him a pack of cigarettes and sends him on his way. Jim tells police he didn't know about Mary's murder until the day after. So on May 24th, Leo Frank is indicted for the murder of Mary Fagan. Leo's defense team urges officials to indict Jim Conley too, but they don't.

Wow. Okay, so police give Jim Conley's latest story to the newspapers and the newspapers run with it. And because of this media portrayal and because of the rampant antisemitism at the time, most of the public immediately believes that Leo Frank is guilty. Yeah. And several of the factory workers are not buying it. They suspect Jim was trying to rob someone else, saw Mary and decided to attack her instead.

And in an attempt to remove all doubt, police arrange, this is so weird, they arrange a meeting between Leo Frank and Jim Conley for May 28th so they can discuss things in person with the police. Interesting. But Leo doesn't go. He says he won't go without his lawyer present and his lawyers out of town. So Leo not showing up for this meeting makes everyone right. It confirms their suspicions.

Yeah. Okay, so Leo Frank's trial begins July 28th, 1913. It draws a huge crowd. The courtrooms packed, people watch it from outside through the windows. It's like it's big, big news. So there's this strange bigotry that the jury has, but not in the standard typical way. Instead of assuming that Newt Lee and Jim Conley are guilty and that Leo Frank the white man is innocent, they think that Newt and Jim wouldn't be able to come up with a complicated story

like that because they're black. And then that Leo Frank being Jewish is guilty because of all the anti-Semitism that clearly he's this factory owner that doesn't care about children and is just doing whatever he wants. Yeah, it's all very convenient. So on top of this rumors are spreading about Leo Frank's sexual habits. Many women who used to work at the factory say that Leo was always quote unquote flirtatious. One person even says he's once saw, and this was an ex-policeman, says that he saw Leo

in the woods with a young girl. After that statement is given by this ex-policeman, it's proven to be a complete fabrication. But once it's out, it doesn't matter that it's proved that way because the damage is done. And it's like everyone is sitting there waiting to hear basically which minority person they get to hate publicly out of this. So during the trial, the prosecution uses the stomach analysis from Mary's autopsy to argue that she had to have been killed somewhere between 12 and 1215.

In Leo's earlier statements, he said Mary came to his office around that time, collected her check and left. But a witness named Montyne Stover, who also worked at the factory, testifies in court that she went to Leo's office between 1205 and 1210 to get her check and that Leo wasn't there. I'll say a 15 minute period like stomach contents, especially back then, it's impossible. It's insane, and everything is predicated on this like a 10 minute time window. That's crazy.

Toward the end of the trial, Leo's defense team requests a mistrial claiming that the public opinion of Leo had been swayed too much by the media. This request is denied. Meanwhile, just outside the courthouse, there are angry mobs screaming, kill the Jew. And a local newspaper had described Leo Frank as, quote, a Jew sodomite. But apparently there was no problem with what the media did to Leo Frank. On August 25th, 1913, the jury deliberates less than four hours before returning their verdict of Leo Frank is unanimously found guilty of the murder of Mary Fagan.

So the next day, Leo's sentenced to death by hanging. The hanging schedules for October 10th, 1913, but Leo's defense team appeals the death sentence on the grounds of trial misconduct. His lawyers cite several examples, including jury intimidation and the damaging rumors that were being spread about Leo's character. And they also pointed outside and when the defense rest, right? Look at them. These people.

So Leo's initial appeals are all rejected, but they do spark further investigation. And when looking at the timeline of events again, authorities find it plausible that Montyne Stover could very well have arrived at Leo's office just before Mary's arrival. Then this would mean that her interaction with him would have no bearing on whether or not Leo was involved in Mary's murder, that basically that whole 10-minute window thing is bullshit and should not have basically come into the case at all. Plus the amount of grime that Mary was covered in when her body was first found indicated that a struggle must have happened in the basement.

It wouldn't have happened in the office. So Jim Connolly's questioned again and he changes his story again to say that Leo Frank gave him $200 to move Mary's body to the basement and burn it in the furnace. Holy shit. And as a result of that, on February 24th, 1914, Jim Connolly's found guilty of being an accomplice in Mary's murder and he sentenced to one year in prison. What? Yeah.

The murdering is rescheduled multiple times, but finally on June 21st, 1915, after two years of deeper investigations and legal back and forth, Governor John Slaton commutes the sentence from death by hanging to life in prison just days before the governor's term expired in 1915. This commutation produces a furor of protest. People go crazy. Found mobs roam the streets, forcing Jewish business people to board up windows and doors. A mob of several thousand people armed with guns, hatchets, and dynamite surrounded the

governor's mansion until they were dispersed by state militia. The publisher of a local magazine called The Jeffersonian, a man named Tom Watson, wrote, This country has nothing to fear from its rural communities. Lynch law is a good sign. It shows that a sense of justice lives among the people. Yeah. And then a group of 75 men who call themselves the Knights of Mary Fagan, including Tom Watson, they all meet at Mary's grave and devise a plan for revenge.

On August 16th, 1915, the men drive 175 miles southeast down to Millageville to the prison farm where Leo Frank is being held. A month before, he'd had his throat slashed and he had survived it. The Knights of Mary Fagan cut the prison's telephone wires, break in, handcuffed the warden, and abducted Leo Frank. They drive to Marietta where Mary Fagan was born. And in the early morning of August 17th, they lynched 28-year-old Leo Frank. Duck.

Yeah. No one's ever arrested for Leo Frank's murder, but Tom Watson does publish a statement on September 2nd, 1915, in that issue of the Jeffersonian saying, quote, the voice of the people is the voice of God. Hey, Tom. No, it's not. Yeah. No, it's fucking not.

No, it's not. And you're a megalomaniac. And hi, Tom, this is God. Stand down. You don't know what you're fucking talking about. An estimated 3,000 Jewish citizens leave the state of Georgia. I mean, fucking, like, goodbye. Goodbye.

Can you imagine? Yes. And the people that stayed there were, like, locked it up, I mean, basically had to go into hiding. Yeah. And this is 1915. Yeah. It's crazy.

Yeah. Historians believe that the popularity of the actions of the Knights of Mary Fagan gave way to a resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan. Fuck. Yeah. That's, but it also became a lightning rod for a Chicago attorney named Sigmund Livingston, who had just weeks before Leo Frank was lynched, founded a new organization called the Anti-Defamation League.

Oh, my God. Its mission was to, quote, stop the defamation of Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all. And so upon seeing this, the way that case played out, what happened in the press and everything, Livingston makes it his mission to never let a bigoted public opinion sway another trial. Basically that's the case and that's what happened. 69 years later, in 1982, an 83-year-old man named Alonzo Mann gives a sworn statement

to the Tennessean newspaper saying that he knows for a fact that Leo Frank did not kill Mary Fagan. What? So, these two reporters from the Tennessean, Jerry Thompson and Robert Sherbourne, they get a tip from someone saying, you need to go talk to Alonzo Mann. And so they go and interview him and Mann finally tells his story and he supplies them with notes, with pictures and other materials. He submits to a lie detector test and a psychological stress evaluation and he passes both impressively

according to the Tennessean. Holy shit. The newspaper reports that a two-month investigation found Alonzo Mann's information to be historically accurate and his claims to be valid. And his claims are this, that in 1913, he was 14 years old, he was working as Leo Frank's office boy and he saw Janitor Jim Conley carrying Mary's limp body by the waist over to the trapdoor leading down to the factory basement. And Mann says that he was standing, so basically what had happened, it was Saturday and there

was a, there was like a Confederate memorial parade outside and Alonzo Mann had gone out to go to the parade. He was supposed to meet his mother there and when his mother didn't show up, he went back to work. He went back into the factory but no one was expecting him to be there and when he walked in, that's when he saw Jim Conley and so he witnessed Jim Conley and then Jim Conley looked over his left shoulder and said, you keep your mouth shut or I'll kill you. Alonzo Mann goes home that night, tells his mother what happened and his mother says,

stay out of it. Because his mother sees what's happening in that town, so Alonzo Mann actually testified at Leo Frank's trial but they only asked him a couple of questions that was very basic and he basically kept the secret because it was like, we don't want to get pulled into this, we don't want to get killed. I say we as if I'm him talking for him and his mother but it's that idea where like, who knows what could happen to get up in the middle of all this. And you know, thousands of people storming the governor's mansion, I mean like how scary

must that have been. He actually then 30 years later after the trial tried to talk to a reporter and the phrase from the New York Times from this article from 1982 said he was rebuffed. So I don't know what that means but it was like they weren't interested in hearing it. Lots of people have written books over the years about this case, no one ever went to talk to Alonzo Mann. Yeah, so basically when Alonzo's story breaks in 1983 in the New York Times, it leads to the Anti-Defamation League filing it for a posthumous pardon for Leo Frank.

At first the state of Georgia rejects the filing but then in 1986, three years later, they grant the pardon admitting their failure to protect Leo Frank's name during an ongoing trial which made them partially responsible for his death. Wow. So Leo Frank was posthumously pardoned for this murder and that's the story of the murder of Mary Fagan and the revenge murder of Leo Frank. Wow. Isn't that crazy?

Yeah, I never got that far into the research so that's like. And the weirdest part is that Sigmund Livingston, right, that's his name, that started the Anti-Defamation League, he had started it two weeks before with $200 and like two desks in his law office and he was like, he kept seeing things written where talking about Jewish people were just be like very low key but insidious so it's like apparently there was a manual for the US Army that talked about how Jews are lazier than other army men, like things like that where he was just going through things and just being like take that out and just continually submitting to places to do that and that was two weeks before Leo Frank was murdered.

So it was almost like then when he saw that he was like, now I have to get serious about this because it's truly life and death. So if you have any extra cash, you want to support the Anti-Defamation League and the work they do fighting hate speech, go to ADL.org, click on their ways to give tab. Because the fight against one form of prejudice cannot succeed without battling prejudice in all forms. Amazing. It's from their website.

I didn't make that up. Wow. Isn't that nuts? Yeah. Great job. So many. I mean... What an awful story.

It's an awful story and it's a very worrisome story because we're always scared to talk about these huge awful race related murders. Totally. So I'm sitting there talking about Leo Frank was lynched but almost entirely lynchings happened to black people. Right. You know what I mean? You don't want to start talking about lynchings in the South and only talk about this one

case. Totally. And then you don't want to talk about this case and there's two other black men that are implicated and one actually may be guilty but it was never proved and we don't know. Talking about this is worrisome, nervous making and yet like it's a story that has to be told and also I'll say this. The creepy thing about when I was reading the article on thevintagenews.com is when you look in the comment section fucking straight up anti-Semitism in a way that I was thinking

because we were just talking about that when you go through and on some websites people come in and go, I heard about this story from my grandma and people like talk about shit. The stuff I read on that website was like, holy fucking shit. Basically it was people kind of arguing that he should not have been a part in. Right. But it immediately was the most racist hateful speech I've seen. That's insane. I mean it was like, it was crazy.

So we're not done. Lots and lots of work for everybody to do and get conscious about and come on America. Yeah. We're going to smash it together. If not now, when? Fuck him. Here's the thing. Fuck racism.

Yeah. Fuck anti-Semitism. Yeah. What might help you if you feel the need to blame other groups of people you do not know for what's happening to you or what's wrong in the world, what you're really doing is talking about yourself. That's just the truth of life is we all want to other so that it's not on us the fact that we don't have what we want or we're not in the place that we want to be or whatever.

But you can shortcut a lot of pain and a lot of misery and a lot of continual black hole feeling inside of you by instead of blaming other people going, what am I doing? What is this? What am I doing right now? Why am I doing it? Because it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. And all people that don't look like you aren't responsible for your problems.

Absolutely not. I hate to fucking tell you. You're number one in the responsibility department of your problems. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry if your grandma told you different, but sorry if your grandma was a racist. Everybody's grandma was a racist. Sure she was.

She was super sweet in other ways, but like, it's just, she can't, it's how it was. And nowadays, no fucking way. No fucking way. Knock it off. Okay. All right. All right. Great job.

Thank you so much. Fucking incredible. Story number two. Yeah. So I recently finally finished the movie Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Yes. A great movie and it made me think of another Hollywood murder that I can't believe we haven't done.

Oh. And I was like, maybe it's not that interesting. So then I looked into it and I'm like, it's fucking interesting. Which one? We not Dan the Wonderland Murders. Oh. Oh, yes. Right?

Yes. And I had to look it up to make sure we hadn't done it because I was like, there's no way. And it's also known as the Four on the Floor Murders. I got information from a website called Celebrity Net Wealth, an article by Dina Zipin. All that's interesting.com. All that's interesting.biz. That's right. By an article by Katie Serena, an L.A. Times article by Robert W. Stewart, a medium article

by Lisa Marie Fuqua. And then there's also a whole podcast series, I think it's like six episodes called the Wonderland Murders. Oh, wow. Okay. That tells the whole story. Cool. As well as the 2003 Val Kilmer vehicle.

Yes. Called Wonderland. I like to call it a Genie Garoflo vehicle. She was in it. She had no lines, essentially. Yeah. Well, I do want to like, let me get it out the IMDb so we can talk about who's who throughout but hold on.

Okay. You know who's in it? Which Vince had a point out to me. I didn't even realize it was him, but the guy who plays one of the detectives on it is none other than fucking Ted Levine. What? Yeah. She's got big fat girl.

Yeah. Size 14. Roomie. Yeah. And you can barely tell it's him. It's really exciting. And it's like, oh, I love it. He's another murder movie.

She's a great big fat person. She's a great big fat person. Oh, fuck me. Ted Levine has fucking range. He has range because then he went on to become like the police chief on Monk, where he would speak and then every once in a while you'd get a dip of Buffalo Bill, and I just feel like, oh no. That's why he gets these little Buffalo Bill fucking zingers.

If you guys don't know what we're talking about and you don't know Silence of the Lamb by heart, then what are you even doing with your life? G-T-H. Get to Silence of the Lamb. It's on everything. Who's watching it? Please do. So.

It's a perfect film. It is. This is the 1980s, Karen. The two-bedroom split-level house with a carport at 8763 Wonderland Avenue that's located in the safe and affluent Laurel Canyon area of Los Angeles. Very safe. Very affluent. Right.

It's the Hollywood Hills. Famous people fucking live there. It's, it's, it's expensive. It's the, it's fancy dream area. Totally. Yeah. So there's this house there and in it it lives a well-known, it's like a well-known drug house at this time in the early 80s.

It's the home of LA's most successful distributor of cocaine from the 1970s. Oh. Called the Wonderland Gang. Shit. So they had been doing really well through the 70s. It's 1981 and they kind of all fall into heroin and start doing heroin and shit falls apart at that point. Yeah.

It usually does when you introduce heroin into the mix. Right. When you start tasting your own supply or what is it called? Getting an eye on your own supply. Thank you. What are you saying? He's high on his own supply? Yeah.

Yeah. So they mostly deal cocaine out of the Wonderland Avenue house, but some of the group members are now heroin users. Sometimes the gang also makes money through burglaries and armed robberies and they're just kind of bad guys. Yeah. It's a house. It's a fancy house filled with bad guys.

Yeah. And the neighbors like hate them. Sure. You know what I mean? But they're scared to call the cops for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And they, the cops know like they've busted all these people.

They're all convicts for the most part. So the leader of the group is 37-year-old convict Ron Launius. So he and his wife who are, he's kind of a strange, but she had come back to try to make things up with him. Her name's Susan. She's 29. They live in the house along with the gang second in command, 44-year-old Billy Devereux and his girlfriend, 46-year-old Joy Miller, as played by Jeanine Graffalo.

So can you tell me who the other parts are? Yeah. So. Because I love this. Yeah. And I love that you're about to write all this down. I have to write it down. Well, first of all, Carrie Fisher makes a cameo in the very beginning.

Yes. What's she doing? She's, she's a holy roller trying to like straighten out a girl and takes her back to her apartment. It's like, why are you with your drug addict boyfriend? Let me help you. Just a random fucking cameo. Hell yeah.

So Val Kilmer's John Holmes, Ron Launius, who's the head is played by Josh Lucas. Oh. Yes. Is he in shit still? Sorry. Oh, absolutely. Sorry, Josh. He's playing Ford versus Ferrari.

Okay. Great. An asshole that works for Ford. He was great. Okay. Always great as an asshole, that guy. The guy who plays the second in command is none other than Tim Blake Nelson. Yes.

He's an incredible actor. You know him from a brother or art, though. His wife is played by Jeanine Graffalo, that Ron Launius' wife is played by Christina Applegate. Oh, nice. Yeah. I bet she has perfect 70s hair. Well, she's barely in it.

That women in this movie don't have a lot of lines. God, that's weird. Wait. What? A Hollywood movie? Yeah. It can't be right. And then, okay.

So then... Wait, sorry. What's Josh Lucas' name? Ron Launius. That's Ron. I love that you're taking notes. Tim Blake Nelson's name is what? Is... Billy.

This is going to come alive in my head. Okay. I love it. Okay, go ahead. So Ron Launius, the head guy, is a U.S. Air Force Vietnam vet, but he had been dishonorably discharged because he was convicted of smuggling heroin back from Vietnam. Oh, shit. Oh, shit more.

He did it by hiding the heroin in the bodies of his fallen soldiers. Oh, no. Yeah. That is dishonorable. That's very dishonorable. Discharge that. That's horrible. Yeah.

So he's a bad guy. In May of 1974, he had been charged with the murder of an alleged police informant. But then that police informant witness, wait, sorry, in May of 1974, he had been charged with the murder of an alleged police informant who had been killed over a botched drug deal. But then a witness, a key witness for that case gets killed in a separate incident. There's all kinds of crazy shit going on in LA in the 70s. Sure. And so the case is dropped.

But later that year, Ron is convicted of smuggling heroin and cocaine across the U.S.-Mexico border and he serves three years of an eight-year sentence in federal prison. So he's a bad guy. Okay. By 1981, police investigators throughout California believe they have 27 open homicide cases that can be tied to him. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Meanwhile, the freeway killers going up and down. Exactly. The hillside stranglers are doing their thing. That's exactly right. There's like a lot of shit going on at the time. Real dark area Southern California in the 70s. That's right. So Ron had become friends in prison with a dude named David Lind, who's like a 41-year-old

white supremacist, as played by, he's played by Dylan McDermott. Oh. But Dylan McDermott's playing a bad guy in this movie and it's just so hard for me to stretch that far because he's got like a goatee, he's like a motorcycle guy and it's like Dylan. No. You're a sweetheart. Then you immediately.

You're America's sweetheart. You put it on the family stone right after and just cleanse that palette and come back with some. Right. It's like his agents were like, Dylan, we want you to like change up your persona when I'll play like, you know, bad guy and he was like, all right. Wait. Is that the guy from the law show, Dylan McDermott or?

Or you're thinking of Dermott Mulroney. Yeah. I was thinking of Dermott Mulroney. He's in the family stone. Okay. But Dylan McDermott, he's the more clean cut looking guy. He's in the practice. Yes.

Okay. He's in. Yeah. No. At all. He's like, he's got a baby face. He's too. It's hard.

But he's good in the role. Sure. He's a good actor, but it's just so hard to see him as like a white supremacist bad guy. Well, also because he has two, he has the golden ratio features where his face looks like a cartoon of a face. Yeah. He's so kind of perfect looking. He's like a pretty actor.

I'm sure he had fun with the role. Sure. He did. You could tell. So, they had been in prison, they had been in prison, Ron and David Linn, and then together they were like, hey, let's steal drugs together when we're both out of prison. And they were like, that's a great idea. And they spit into their hands and they shook on it.

And then so in 1981, David comes to Los Angeles from Sacramento to help with the gang's lucrative drug dealing business. And he brings his girlfriend, who's a 22-year-old Barbara Richardson, and they crash in the living room sofa of the Wonderland house. And she is played by Natasha Gregson, who's a great actress. Natasha Gregson Wagner. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

She's done a ton of stuff. Yeah. Oh, it's Natalie Wood's daughter. Is it really? Yeah. It's Natalie Wood's daughter? Yeah. And you guessed that I was doing Natalie Wood's death?

That's crazy. That's the creepiest thing I've ever heard. That's... She's Robert Wagner's daughter. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. She used to be on a sitcom in the early-mid-90s.

Yeah. I totally... And she did a ton... She's done so much stuff. Okay. Oh, my God. Okay. So, they come to LA to help with this lucrative drug business.

They crash at the Wonderland house. There's always parties there, and there's tons of drugs. Everyone's on drugs. Yeah. Let's cut to July 1st, 1981, around 4 p.m. Okay. Furniture movers working at the house next door. They hear a woman moaning in pain, and they go to investigate, and they find the bloodied

dead bodies of four of the Wonderland gang members and one person still clinging to life. Oh, my God. And the Wonderland house becomes known as one of the grizzliest murder scenes since the Manson murders and one of Hollywood's most gruesome killings. So, I'm going to get back to that. But the day after the murders, police find David Lund, a.k.a. Dylan McDermott, he had come back to the scene of the crime, like gets into the house that has all the police tape and shit.

He's looking for drugs. He finds out that his girlfriend might have been killed, he hadn't been there that night. And the cops find him there, and they're like, what the fuck? And he's like, I'll tell you everything. They take him in for questioning. And he tells the investigators that the reason for the murders all centers around the well-known adult film star, John Holmes. He's at the center of this murder.

Wow. Right. So, who's John Holmes? You ask. So, 36-year-old John Holmes, in the 1970s, he had become a famous porn actor in this new era of adult films, which had become more mainstream. It was more like movies. They were more like movie stars.

Yeah. And they... Well, I mean, to a degree. Yeah. Right. But they had become famous. Right. These leading actors and actresses.

Especially John Holmes. Especially John Holmes. He was, like, famous. And if you... So, Boogie Nights is really loosely, there's some plot lines that are based on John Holmes and his life. And so, Dirk Diggler is essentially John Holmes. Right.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. I'm sure you can find it on the Internet. Yeah.

If you so please. I don't know. Do they still have porn on the Internet? Hmm. At the time, John Holmes was one of the most prolific male adult film actors, starring in over 500 porn films, and is best known for his portrayal of the detective, Johnny Wad. So, remember in Boogie Nights, when he became...

Is that like karate fighting detective slash porn star, that's all based on John Holmes as Johnny Wad? Yeah. It was almost a biopic. Exactly. But in 19... By 1981, John Holmes had become addicted to free-basing cocaine, and as a result, his career declined because of his chronic impotence.

So, he had become a frequent visitor at the Wonderland House, and the gang had let John hang out mostly for novelty. It seems like they treated him like a joke, and he was kind of like a mooch. It seemed like they portray him as like a hapless mooch, who... He was selling drugs for them, but he had been doing the drugs himself, and so he had gotten into deep debt with the Wonderland gang, and owes him a bunch of money. So, when the gang finds out about this, they cut off his access to the Wonderland House, and they threaten to kill him if he doesn't pay back the money.

Like, this is real shit. This is real deep fucking shit. And it's that trick, too, of like, because I think I actually watched a documentary about John Holmes and the way his life went, and that whole thing of like, he lived in... Because porn films were... It was this kind of like a party atmosphere, and drugs were obviously in the 70s, like, that's back when people thought cocaine was good for you. Right.

Free-flowing. Everyone did it. In the late 70s, it's like, oh yeah, it's just like... A pep. It's uppers. It's not the big of a deal. So then, yeah, in the early 80s, the come down of like, now you're dabbling in heroin. Now you're in a thing where you can't get out.

Totally. So dark. It seems like that's what had happened. Yeah. So, according to John Lind, who's telling the police officers the day after the murder why John Holmes is involved, he says that John Holmes had tried to get out of his debt by tipping off the Wonderland gang to a rich friend of his named Eddie, who he said always had a ton of drugs, cash, and valuables laying around his house.

And he's like, I can get you inside the house. He drew them a map of the house, showed them where the safe was and where the valuables were. And he's like, this will be how I pay you off, and I'll even leave the back door unlocked for you guys. Ugh. I know. Drugs make you do the dumbest fucking things.

Every plan is a bad plan. Yeah. Every, yeah. All, and the feelings are bad and they don't go away. When the end game is to get more drugs, whatever you're fucking planning is a bad idea. It's going to go wrong. That's right. Yeah.

Or you'll just get in a weird car accident on the way because you're just not in reality. Right. Exactly. You're not thinking straight. Yeah. So, on June 29th, 1981, John Holmes visits his friend Eddie's house in Studio City. It's his mansion early in the morning. He goes there.

He buys drugs, but on his way out, he leaves the patio door to the kitchen unlatched. So Wonderland gang members Ron, Billy, and David, they perform the robbery while another member waits outside in a car. And the men enter the property through the unlocked door and confront Eddie, who's at the house with his 300-pound bodyguard named Gregory Diles, who lives there. Like, that's how crazy it is. Yeah. So, they pretend to be police officers.

They've got a handcuff Eddie and his bodyguard, but David Lind is bumped while he's handcuffing him and accidentally shoots him. His gun goes off, but it only grazes the bodyguard. Okay. But his gun does go off. Yeah. And the gang force Eddie to open the safe, and they end up making off with... It seems like $100,000 worth of stuff.

I've also read $1.2 million worth of stuff. It's hard to tell. But it's cash, jewelry, guns, and drugs, including eight pounds of cocaine, and 5,000 quailudes. What? All the quailudes. All the quailudes in the world. Those are the last 5,000 quailudes.

God damn it. Yeah, that's right. It says that today the total worth of it all would be $3.4 million, so they fucking robbed him blind. I don't know if that's the right number. It might be lower than that, but it was a shit ton of money. It was a ton. Clearly, this guy was also a drug kingpin.

Right. And he got fleeced. Well, here's what I'm going to tell you. Now, the biggest problem is that the Wonderland gang hadn't just robbed some pedestrian friend of John Holmes. Oh. They had robbed the wealthiest and most powerful organized crime boss operating on the West Coast.

Notorious club owner, Eddie Nash. Oh, shit. And we've talked about it in other episodes before. Like, I'm nervous right now. You should be. So, in the movie, Boogie Nights, when they go over to Dirk, gently, no. Diggler. Dirk Diggler's, Dirk gently is the British show.

It's a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Oh, yeah. So, when they go to Dirk Diggler's, like, rich friends' mansion and he's wearing a robe and, like, bikini briefs and his lover is popping off pop rocks, that's based on Eddie Nash, like, almost exactly. Wow. Okay. Amazing.

So, Eddie Nash owns several famous nightclubs and restaurants in LA and he was super into drugs. His drug habit was so intense, it was reported that he used one million dollars in drugs every year. Oh, no. Yeah. And he was missing part of a sinus cavity because of his addiction. Yeah.

And his story is crazy and fascinating as well. The podcast, The Wonderland Murders, talks more about it, but he had become withdrawn and reclusive, as you do, and he rarely left his house, but it was like a party house, and he would wear a maroon silk robe and bikini briefs and just have people, you know, drug addicts through the house. Sure. Essentially, he was not someone you wanted to fuck with. No.

And Rob, not to mention humiliate, which The Wonderland Gang had done when they had forced Eddie Nash to beg for his life on his knees with a gun in his mouth. So, they not only robbed him and shot his bodyguard, but they fucking humiliated him. And he could take the money loss. It was, you know, making him look stupid that the problem was, that was the problem. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Because if you're the biggest drug dealer in, you know, did you say Studio City in Los

Angeles, then clearly, it's about power and prestige and status and all that stuff. I mean, that's like, you have the guts to do it. And then these little pricks on fucking The Wonderland Avenue are ripping you off, pretending to be, they're scaring you because they pretend to be cops. You think the shit's going down. And then it turns out. But Eddie Nash is like, in bed with the LAPD, like they wouldn't have come and raided his house then.

So, do you think he knew immediately that they were fake? He knew immediately. Okay, okay. Within 48 hours of the robbery, Nash is pretty sure that he knows that The Wonderland Gang is behind the heist and that his friend, John Holmes, who Nash had taken under his wing and he called him brother, had a hand in it. But he's rich enough that the thought doesn't matter. It's just the fucking humiliation.

So two days after the robbery of Nash's house, Holmes ends up back at Nash's house after John Holmes is spotted wearing one of Nash's stolen rings. Oh, shit. Yeah. So like he got a cut of the robbery, including jewelry and not smart, not smart, not smart. Nash, you know, beats up John, he takes his address book and says he'll hunt down and kill all of your friends and family if you don't tell me who robbed the house. Shit.

This is just a guy from Ohio who wanted to get into porn because he had a 10-inch dick. Yeah. And he's just getting himself. Steven almost spit up his pariet. You hadn't heard how long it was, Steven. Sorry. You didn't know? No, Steven just quite large.

A big one. Sorry. He was doing awesome visual comedy over here with his spit takes and you can't see it. So of course, John Holmes is terrified of any Nash as he should be, but he also it might be that he's also pissed off at the Wonderland gang because he only got a little paltry split of the profits and he gives any Nash their names. So two days after this robbery of any fucking Nash at around 3 a.m. on July 1st, John Holmes is brought to the Wonderland house by the bodyguard along with two other unidentified

men. Your face is right. Yeah. This is not going to go well. It's not going to go well. No. So this is the story that's been kind of plucked out from everyone's story based on... Like the...

Did no one really knows because everyone there got murdered? No one really knows because everyone got murdered and the people who were involved of course are not talking. So this is what we kind of figured out has happened is that there's an intercom, there's a security gate and John rings the intercom and he's like, hey, it's John and because they know him, they buzz him in, not knowing that they're buzzing in three armed dudes along with him. And the group enters the Wonderland house according to the story that John's ex-wife

later tells based on his confession to her, who's by the way, she's played by Lisa Kudrow. Oh, wow. She plays really well. Yeah. She's an amazing actress. Yeah. She plays it so dowdy and perfectly. So John is forced to watch as the three intruders sent by Nash attacks the sleeping Wonderland

occupants and uses hammers and metal pipes to bludgeon the occupants of the Wonderland gang. Ron and his wife Susan and Billy and his girlfriend Joy are both, they're all in their own beds and get bludgeoned in their room. And then Barbara is 22 year old Barbara, who's asleep on the couch alone, gets bludgeoned on the couch. Oh my God. Neighbors later report having heard screams and someone begging not to be killed at the

time of the attack. But they say that because the house next door is this drug fueled, you know, party house that often included violent yelling and noise. When they heard the murders happening, they just thought it was another party or assume it's a primal scream therapy session, which was all the rage at the time. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh no.

So primal scream is just screaming it out. Right? Yes. Basically. Yeah. So they kind of were like, these fucking neighbors again, they already hated them. They're having another rager. Yeah.

They don't assume the very worst and try to help. Exactly. Oh. Which is awful. So bad. And the police aren't called for over 12 hours at 4 p.m. when those furniture movers heard the house next door. They hear moaning and they go to investigate and then call the police.

And then so there is video footage. It's like the first of its kind. It's a walkthrough of the crime scene with fucking, I mean, it's from 1981, so it's not great footage, but it's the bodies. You can see everything. You can find it on YouTube. Don't do it if you're not. No.

It's very gruesome. Oh no. And it's the detective pointing everything out and talking you through it. It's really fucked up. That's horrible. But there's blood everywhere. I bet. Yeah.

So the moaning had come from Susan Launius, who was lying on the floor of the bedroom that she shared with Ron. Her head had been partially smashed in, but it had been done so in such a way that she didn't bleed out. She actually ends up being the sole survivor of the attack. Wow. And recovers. Wow.

It's permanent brain damage, of course, and that leaves her with amnesia. So the only thing she remembers from that night is shadows, is what she says. Everyone else who'd been in the house that night is dead. The body of Barbara Butterfly Richardson, David Lynn's girlfriend, is the one lying on the ground near the couch she had been sleeping on, covered in blood. Joy Miller is found dead in her bed while Billy's body, her boyfriend, is slumped at the foot of the bed, leaning against the TV stand, and a bloody hammer is tangled in the sheets, and several metal pipes are on the floor.

And the bodyguard of Eddie Nash was known. That was his weapon of choice, was a metal pipe. It's so awful. But the idea that they're going to go bludgeon people as opposed to shoot them and have it be over quickly. How do you do that? How do you do that? It's crazy.

I think the point was to teach John Holmes a lesson. It seems like that was the point. In the neighboring room, Ron Launius is found dead, bloodied and beaten, almost beyond recognition. Detectives at the LAPD say that the murder scene is one of the most gruesome and bloody murders of all time, and the video is taken as well. John Holmes, his handprint is found on the bed frame of Ron's bed, almost like he was leaning over the bed, and so maybe he had something to do with it. So he's arrested and charged with four counts of murder in March of 1982, John Holmes is.

He refuses to cooperate in the investigation and spends four months in jail. By the way, he's an LA County jail in the Special Wings for Celebrities called the Keepaways, and his cell neighbors are Angelo Bueno and Kenneth Bianchi, the hillside stranglers. Yeah, so those are his fucking next door neighbors. I mean, did a portal to hell open up in like 1977? It's called Ronald Reagan. My mom is high-fiving you and has me right now. Oh, I love it.

Pat. Wow, that's... I can't believe he lived through that, though. Also, to survive that experience. The movie Wonderland, it's so weirdly accurate from what I can tell, and they do these word flashbacks and this fucked up shit, and it's just done well, and it looks... It's awful, but it's like, dude, when you get involved in drugs, these are the kind of fucking things that happen.

It goes downhill real fast. Yeah, the people you're dealing with are not everyday people. No. No. In a two-week trial in June of 1982, John Holmes is acquitted, and his lawyer explains that the hand... He explains the handprint away by saying that his client spent a lot of time in the house and would crash in whatever bed was possible, so that's why his handprint was there, but

the handprint was like in blood. So, in 1988, almost seven years later, the police aren't any closer to solving the case, but they hear that John Holmes is on his deathbed. John Holmes had been diagnosed with AIDS and was at the hospital due to complications from the disease and about to die. Police try to get one last confession from him, but he refuses to give any names. Wow. And he dies on March 13th, 1988.

After he dies, John's ex-wife tells the LA Times that he had confessed to her his part in the murders. His wife asked him why he didn't do or say anything while these people were getting murdered, and she says that John said, quote, they were dirt. Wow. Yeah. A girlfriend of John Holmes, her name's Dawn, from 1981, verifies the ex-wife's story, saying that John had told her the same thing.

Both women say John insisted that he didn't take part in the actual bloodshed at all. He just was forced to watch, but investigators believe his handprint is on the bed frame because he participated in the beatings, and they show that in Wonderland where it's like they forced John Holmes to take part in it, either to teach him a lesson or to have him be implicated in it as well, make him hit Ron over the head with a pipe. That would make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

It totally would make sense. And then him denying it to his death because he doesn't want to be part of that, and he seems like this hapless guy who wouldn't be involved in this stuff if it wasn't for drugs. So in 1990, Eddie Nash is charged in a California state court with conspiracy to commit the murders while his bodyguard Gregory Diles is charged with participating in them. And in 1991, Nash's trial ends in a hung jury because it turns out that he had bribed one of the jury members, an 18-year-old woman, with $50,000.

Oh, shit. Yeah. And so he's acquitted. You can't do that. No. You'll immediately look guilty. Yeah. You can't do that.

But they don't find out till later, and he's acquitted. But can you imagine being an 18-year-old girl, you're on this jury, these people come together like, here's 50 grand if you don't vote him guilty, and they're these powerful fucking bosses. Yeah. You don't say no because you have principle. You say yes because you're scared for your life. I mean, it's such a, what a terrible position to be in no matter what you do.

It's lose-lose. Because if you say no to members of organized crime, you could get killed. Exactly. But you could go to jail. Right. Like every, that's terrible. It is. It totally is.

That's why jury tampering is illegal. Don't do it, everyone. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. Gregory Diles is also acquitted. So Nash ends up being acquitted. Diles is also acquitted and dies in 1997 from liver failure. Okay.

So in 2000, Eddie Nash is arrested by federal authorities for running a criminal enterprise, conspiring to commit the Wonderland murders and for bribing the jury in the first trial. By this time, he's 71 years old, he has emphysema and tuberculosis. The proceedings drag on for 11 more years until Eddie Nash finally agrees to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty. 11 years. 11 years.

So is he, is that just money? And he's like living with so many, who knows? Wow. Yeah. He pleads guilty to running a criminal enterprise, money laundering and jury tampering, but he refuses to commit any involvement in the Wonderland murders. He claims he only sent his people to go and retrieve his stolen property. Nothing more.

Yeah. In the end, he spends one year in federal prison and is ordered to pay $250,000 in fines. And he dies of unspecified causes on August 9th, 2014 at 85 years old. Wow. Yeah. Any other assailants who might have participated in the bludgeoning of the Wonderland gang have never been identified or prosecuted and it's very unlikely anyone ever will. That's the Wonderland murders, a little silver lining.

The girlfriend I was talking about of John Holmes from 1981 who was 15 when she met 31 year old John Holmes and clearly was coerced and taken advantage of. She wrote a memoir called The Road Through Wonderland Surviving John Holmes. She's played by the way by Kate Bossworth. Oh, wow. Yeah. So today, she's revered as an expert survivor leader. She is a national speaker, educator, consultant and author in the anti-trafficking domestic

violence, sexual assault and trauma recovery movements. Wow. So she's this incredible force now. And you can find her info in her book at don-shiller-s-c-h-i-l-l-e-r dot com. Wow. Yeah. It's incredible. Wonderland murders.

That's unbelievable. Wait a minute. Can I look up one thing? Yes. Okay. For some reason, a 10-inch stick didn't seem that big to me. So I was looking it up because I want to be like, it was 17 inches long. You looked up John Holmes' dick size just now?

I just wanted to make sure that was right. I guess 10 inches was big back then. In today's dick size. Oh, 23 inches. Exactly. Oh. I always thought, and I think it's based on this documentary, I have like very fleeting memory that it was, you know, medically impossible size or something like that.

Like crazy nuts insane. Yeah. That's so crazy. I didn't realize it was so involved. I didn't realize that John Holmes was so involved in it, you know? You know what's interesting is I was, as you kept referring to Boogie Nights, I was like, well, then actually it could be argued that once upon a time in Hollywood, being the basically fairy tale version of the Sharon Tate murders, the C.L.O. Drive murders, I should say, that

basically Paul Thomas Anderson did it first with Boogie Nights. Totally. He basically took the Wonderland murders and made it kind of funny up, hey, not everybody's just going to get bludgeoned. I was just thinking that as you were saying that word, it's just kind of like, hmm, controversial film opinion. That's a good point. PTA did it first.

That's right. Those are good movies. Because when I watched once upon a time in Hollywood and I realized at the end, oh, this is like that whole ending of her, of them all talking and her walking up the driveway or whatever and then I'm like, oh, I get it, it's a fairy tale, like it took me so long to get that. Yeah. So then it was like, oh wait, yeah, that is like, I like the idea of taking these horrible

like stains on history or whatever. These moments of absolute abject human tragedy and then just being like, or what about this funny scene where everybody does drugs and everyone acts super weird in the living room. Right. I just, I can't help but feel so much sympathy for the girlfriends and wives who fall in love with these characters who are so bad for them and 22 years old, maybe you're a 40-something and divorced with children because you're a heroin addict and you get divorced. It's like these things that happen in your life or such minor characters in these lives

of these people who make really bad decisions and are, and because of that, we're affected by it. It's also, I was feeling a lot of empathy toward John Holmes and just what addiction does to people and it's that idea that it's, when people are addicts, there's so many people who don't look at it as a disease or as a thing that's beyond the control of the person that's happening to, but clearly it is. If this is the kind of shit you get into and you're so fucked up that you can't make a good decision and you can't, you know what I mean, you're just, you're kind of like

out past reason and you're doing things because like your body demands chemicals. I feel like it's so crazy when you're like, I don't even want to be doing drugs anymore and I'm still doing them. It's like there's a ghost inhabiting your body who keeps making these decisions for you. It's terrible. Yeah. It's terrible.

And it leads to some fucked up situations. In the hills. In the fucking, even in the Hollywood Hills. Maybe. It's so sinister, the idea it's like go kill them all in a slow way that's going to hyper traumatize John Holmes, like everything about that is the worst. So sad. It's the worst.

Once again. Hey, bud. Hey, but what about not the worst? How about when we turn it around at the end? We said this, we said that we were going to do this a couple episodes ago and now we've collected up all our information and we're talking about fucking hooray, but we're going to read a couple of your guys's first. Yeah, you guys were so great.

You commented on Instagram, which is the ones I'm reading and you commented on Twitter, which is what Karen's reading with some really great fucking arrays. So I think maybe in the next few episodes, we'll just read a few at the end. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Sure. You want to go first? Yeah.

This is from DNA TXN. I posted this in the fan forum, but it seems appropriate to put here since it was a fucking hooray. I absolutely love every time Marty and Jim make an appearance on the podcast. My dad died when I was 16, so I don't have any experience of having a dad and being an adult. I was really lucky to have a great relationship with my dad and because he was chronically ill, I was able to appreciate every day we had with him.

He was sometimes gruff and old fashioned, having been in the army most of his life, but he was also kind and funny, accepting that life had knocked him for a loop. I miss him terribly, but when Karen and Georgia mentioned their dads, it warms my heart and I can take a moment to imagine how my dad would respond to something in my adult life, and it helps me remember him a bit better. So hooray for dads. Thanks for sharing them. That's so beautiful.

That's awesome. What a great fucking hooray to kick it off with. Good job, DNA underscored TXN. That's gorgeous. Awesome. This is from June Embersum. It's June Embersum. This person writes, my fucking hooray is that tomorrow I'll have been officially discharged

from my day program for my eating disorder for a full week, and while it's been a hard last few days, I'm eating and not spending most of my day in bed. So progress. Hell yes. Fucking awesome. Yes. Yes. Love it.

Take every day, do that same thing, keep on logging days, put them behind you. Oh, it's so fun. You're going to do it. Yeah. Lots of us have done it. Totally. Lots of us still have to do it and continue to struggle. And the more you can talk about it, the more it helps you and other people.

Remember, it's about helping other people. 100%. How about this? Okay. This is E.O.R. The Holland Lop. Okay. Which I think is a kind of rabbit.

Okay. But I'm not sure. Okay. E.O.R. Underscore. The underscore Holland underscore Lop. My fucking hooray is that after a year and a half being in a wheelchair, I stood up for 47.9 seconds by myself, hashtag fucking hooray.

That's amazing. Congratulations. Incredible. Keep it up. Love it. So good. This person writes, my fucking hooray, I'm 22 years old and never thought I would be able to support myself and live and lived at home.

This month, I finally moved out of my mom's house and I'm actually supporting myself. Things are going amazing and I'm so proud of myself. Yes. Yay. We're proud of you too. Yes. Congratulations. I did it with Larks.

I thought it said dances with sharks. Dances with Larks says, my fucking hooray, this coming fall, I'm moving to Seattle to pursue my bachelor's degree at my dream school after being in community college land for about five years. I finally made the push, got over my fears and fucking did it. Yes. Yes. Good.

Do it. This is from Erin KD85. My fucking hooray is crying in my cubicle because Karen and Georgia actually make me feel seen. I was raped at 18 and lost my dad at 20. I'm almost 35 now, but that trauma of that time in my life is still very much alive. I cut off my relationship with my therapist mother almost four years ago after constantly being told to quote, get over it. Sometimes I've wondered if there's something wrong with me for still crying and being jumpy

until people like Karen and Georgia remind me that healing is a process and that there is nothing wrong with how long I take. Much love, Erin. Erin, you're so right. You were right. Trust your instincts. What you just named is the things that happened to you will never go away. And that's true for everybody on this planet.

We all have huge scars. We've all been through fucked up shit, lots and lots and lots of people. And if you go out into the world and try to find other people that are like you, you will understand that you shouldn't feel different and you shouldn't feel in anywhere weird. And the idea, I think the mother that you had to cut out because she needed to say get over it is because she didn't have any better tools to say anything better to you. And maybe you were so close that she felt helpless and that made her feel bad. She thinks she's helping you because she really wants it to be how it was.

She wants it to be over. But you know it never, you're a different person now. You're completely, you're on planet. I was raped and my dad died and that's your planet now and you can thrive there. Because your planet is populated with everybody else on this same planet. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

That's from Deer Sugar. I didn't write that myself. Cheryl Stray, Deer Sugar. Everyone needs to read it. Yes. Well, and I was also just thinking of, I just listened to this, Pema Children has a book called Getting Unhooked. It's so good and it's just kind of about how we all, every single human being, we just

have these moments, a thing happens that we don't like for whatever reason. We tighten up and then we act a certain way to try to make that go away. And that's the source of addiction, it's the source of neuroses, it's the source of bad behavior, it's the source of everything. And the idea is if you can recognize when you're tightening up and then about to do act weird, you can stop and just pause. So, I'm calling her a psychic massage therapist, but really it's somatic therapy. And part of that is when something goes wrong or you feel off or you feel scared, where

in your body do you tighten up and where in your body do you feel it and because my back is so fucked up, all the shit that I refuse to deal with from my life and from my childhood is being turned into back pain. Muscle tension. Muscle tension and back pain. And she's like, next time you feel this tension and this tightening, go with it instead of like letting it absorb everything. Right.

Instead of like locking down, because it's the, we believe like in our reptilian brain that we can't handle it or it's danger, it's life-threatening danger, but it's actually a feeling. Yeah. It's a bad memory, it's a feeling, it's a pain, which you want to avoid normally, like naturally, but if you can just accept it and let it sit there, it goes away, but you, but it's that, I mean, easy to say, but Pema Chedron getting unhooked, there was an anecdote she just told about the Dalai Lama being asked because there's this idea that like Western

culture is very self-loathing and they don't really have that in Tibet and he was talking about when he first discovered that it was this whole different thing over here. And so the person he was talking to asked him, do you have any regrets? And he told a story about an interaction he had with an older monk, a monk that it was in his 80s, and the monk killed himself later. And the reporter said, how did you get rid of that feeling? And then they said that there was a very, very, very long pause. And the Dalai Lama said, I didn't, it's still there.

It's still there. And then I just have slowly, slowly, slowly learned to not let it take over. Of course, in early days, it took over and eventually you work with it until it doesn't take over anymore. But that's like a growing process. I certainly don't know how to do it, but apparently the Dalai Lama does. You want to do one more? Sure.

Let's see. This was from the emails. I'm sorry if this isn't the right spot to share my fucking hooray, I just wanted to let you all know that your last episode that discussed the pillowcase rapist inspired me to reach out to my college best friend and tell her that I had been sexually assaulted by one of our quote unquote friends. I had never told her about this experience because I had been ashamed and afraid because I had been drinking when it happened and I thought it was my fault for putting myself

in the situation. This past fall, you both inspired me to find a new counselor to deal with my anxiety and my eating disorder that I'd like to pretend didn't exist for, oh, the last 20 years. Right? That episode helped me shine a light on a dark piece of shame that I had been hiding for too long. And when I shared my experience with my friend, she even had a story of her own that she'd been hiding and I in turn helped her share her experience.

You had both inspired me to work on owning my story, the good, the bad and the ugly and taking away power from the dark, shadowy bits of shame that I have tried to deal with by myself for too long. You two are my fucking hooray, MD. That's so beautiful. That's incredible. That's so beautiful. That's incredible.

I think these can be our fucking hooray this week because me saying Pilates next is not going to fucking match up this, so I refuse. Hey, but you know what? We can't be deep all the time, you know what I mean? Literally, I was like, what British procedural can I say I'm grateful for? Let's let these be our, guys, comment this week again on Instagram and on our Twitter, my favorite murder and my favorite murder. Tell us your fucking hooray this week.

We'll read them next week. Incredible. And you know. Small or big. They don't have to be heavy. I was just going to say, we all can't be all be E or the Holland Blop who stood up for the first time after being in a wheelchair for a minute or a half. But it's still good.

We want to hear it. Sarah, Sarah Duke, who's the one who made us those incredible beautiful dresses that I always wear on stage. She said, I started smoking 20 years ago and smoked at least 20 cigarettes a day for most of that time. I quit six days ago, which means tomorrow I get a start measuring time in weeks. Fucking hooray. Hell, yes.

Sarah Duke, do you have that app that counts days because then a year you will have the exact amount of time? And it'll tell you how much money you spent or you saved by not smoking, right? Yes. There's some good apps that really are like pro, like make it fun to quit things. I love it. Awesome. Send them to us.

Great job, everybody. Thanks for listening. Thanks for participating with us. Thanks for being here and coming to our party. And stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

No, I don't want a cookie.