My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 22 - The Girls with the Episode Twenty Two

Episode Date: June 28, 2016

This week Karen and Georgia give themselves the impossible task of making murders from the 1500s interesting. The Sawny Bean legend and the Princes in the Tower are the murders of choice, along with a listener hometown murder and a discussion of the new Simpsons documentary. Enjoy, Murderinos! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Welcome everybody to my favorite murder, the podcast, the highly professional true crime podcast that asks the question, what if two women who were slightly interested in true crime and had a free time on their hands and like to have conversations and make up facts and not do a lot of research, how to, we need to start this over. No, I love it. No, you do one. Hey everyone, this is my favorite murder, a podcast where we talk about our favorite murders, which is kind of

insulting to people who have been murdered, but we don't mean it that way. We're trying to be fucking cool and interested and like, we have so much like empathy. Right. That's our, that whole thing was our tagline. Okay. Are we, are you blowing this? Should we do another one? We're just going to keep doing that. Like, welcome to what the fuck starring Mark Marin. Oh my god, our listenership just went up so high. Oh my god. We'll steal listeners from Marin. Yeah, we'll convert them to our way of thinking about murder. Yep. Which is with very little fact. Right. Which is just kind of conversational. I'm good. It's nice to see you. I saw you, Georgia, last night briefly at a comedy show where there was no air conditioning and we both looked like we had,

we were crossing paths in a sauna. Yeah. Essentially is what it looked like. Well, if the podcast, I'm not sure, I'm not for sure, but if this is coming out a day late, it's because we normally record on Monday, but my apartment was so fucking disgustingly hot and I, and I don't, and I have TV money. I have base, I have, I have cooking channel money. Yeah. You have TV money, which is the, which isn't what TV money used to be. It's now radio money. Right. So I live in a one bedroom apartment with no fucking air conditioning. And on Monday and Sunday, it was like 106. Yeah. It was over 100 degrees in Los Angeles. So my, my living room was like, like a, it was like a jacuzzi. It felt like a jacuzzi. Yeah. So we're doing it instead on Wednesday and we're sorry, but

yeah, it's this, it, it's a weather delay. It's a legit weather delay. Yeah. And a lot of Los Angeles is being affected this way because the stupid comedy show, I don't know if their air conditioning broke or if they had some kind of blackout or brownout or something, but they couldn't. So it was like a full on comedy show with a full audience. They had to open the side door when I was on stage. There's nothing. Cop cars went by and ruin my Bjork bit. It was so good. It was, people did not laugh at all. And I wonder if it just because it was like two cop cars or an ambulance, whatever it was going by. Did you hear me loudly cackling in the back? Was that you? Yeah. I'm supportive with, I, I learned a long time ago from someone who used to, like I know in comedy,

should I say who it is? Ed Salazar, who's like a sweet baby angel when he, I hated being near him when he was at a comedy show because he would laugh super loud and clap when he laughed, which like laugh clapping is my least favorite thing in the world. We had this like, ha, ha, like loud laugh. One day I was like, what the fuck? And he was like, I'm being supportive of my friends. I want them to know when they're on stage that I am laughing out loud and making people around me laugh too. And I was like, Oh, that's why I do it too. You like get trained as a standup that you have to let your friends, you know the feeling that they're having on stage, which is usually the world hates my guts. And you're kind of trying to earn back from that below zero feeling. And so when

you're, when you are genuinely make your comedian friends laugh in the audience, they know they have to let you know. Yeah. Cause that's basically saying, don't stop doing that bit. Right. There's no like, there's no under your breath gaffa. It's like, no, no. It's like, ha, ha, ha, which I fucking love. And I do now. And I'm like, I'll do it so loud. And I don't care. Now I'm thinking there were a couple moments where I was laughing at a certain laugh and I'm pretty sure it was you. I go, yeah. Is that it? Yeah. Cause it almost sounded sarcastic. But I was like, don't go into how you think a person is sarcastically laughing at you when that's probably not happening. I need to change her. I'll go, ha. Well, now that I know that she was going to make me laugh,

instead of being defensive, because someone didn't make a weird, I did the first joke I did in the, as the laughter was ebbing because the first joke went fine, then someone, and it sounded like a drunk dude went, yeah. And it was that kind of thing that makes me want to jump off the stage and strangle someone. Hold on though. Was that in the back? I don't know. Because there was a joke you did about the Yucca corridor. Yes. Where you used to live in Hollywood. Right. And you went, I lived in the Yucca corridor and there was a guy in front of me who went, yeah. Genuinely was like used to live there. And I'm from LA almost. And I didn't know what that was. So I think that maybe that's who it was. No, no. I know what you're talking about. And that was like, he was trying

to support because that, but that was the setup of a joke. It wasn't the punchline. This was after the punchline. And it was basically someone making a sarcastic comment. Like, I kind of don't agree with you is what it sounded like. Can I tell you when am I like this moment I go back to, you know, the shame is like the next day after you were drinking, you're like, this, I did this thing and I'm so ashamed of it. Yeah. Yeah. I have one from like 2007. That I still like think about, about I was at a comedy show and I went, nope at something. And I want it. And it was a friend who was on stage, but it was still like, and I remember a couple of comedians that I'm friends with turned around to see who said that. And I want,

I still think of it and get this like coochie twinge of like shame, you know, that like, can't believe I did that. Oh my God. That sounds that is that in a nutshell is what I was like when I was drinking, although I was drunk. I would never have a twinge about it. I would be like, and that's the least I'm going to say. Right. You're lucky. I'm not. Yeah. That's why I kind of try not to get too drunk at comedy shows because like, I don't want to like fucking say anything. No, I know. It's, it's, uh, it's for me, it was a lot of bad behavior would take place because like at the old Largo, we would stand in the back and then the comedian would be on stage. There would be these people that paid money and waited in line dinner, eating dinner to watch the show.

And then the comics would stand in the back and talk to each other while other people stood next to each other. I'm sure we did. Right. My friend and I were like, we don't have dinner. We're like the cool ones who go in the back and stand like you stand by the sound booth. Yeah. So here's what I used to do. And maybe you remember this because I, this was, I stopped drinking right when that, that show started. Yeah. Um, we would all be talking and I would of course be laughing at like, not at the comic, but at things my friends were saying. And if anybody would turn around who was standing in the audience area, I'd literally turn around. Uh-huh. Like a high school bully. It was one of my favorite things to do. Imagine how broken I am inside. You would have hated me.

You would have been so mean to me if we had met back then. Are you the kind of person that would turn around and try to give me a dirty look? No. I think if one of my friends are on stage and someone's talking a lot, I'll do it and be like, you know, shut the fuck up. I probably would have enjoyed that. Yeah. I think it's the passive aggression. I was just obnoxious. I don't think you would have liked me because I was like a hipster, like an anorexic hipster. I like wrote my Vespa to, I'm not kidding. I wrote my Vespa to Largo to watch like alternative comedians. Yeah. I probably wouldn't have liked it. I was like, I'm 21. Well, I wouldn't have liked you on the surface. Right. But I wasn't confident enough to like be cool around you the way I was. Let me

met when I was in, not anorexic anymore and in my 30s. Well, you had your, you had your own, you know, identity going. Yeah. But I have, in my opinion, anorexia and my eating disorder are very similar where it's just, it's the equal opposite where it's just, it's a weird body. Like binging, is that what you think you have? Is that what you think you have? Is that what you think you have? We have so much in common. Is that what you're claiming? Oh my God. It's a total cat party. It's, oh God, this is a mess right now. I got a kitten. I'm fostering a kitten and my cats are fucking rebelling and I'm sorry. And no, it's fine. All right. So we have some housekeeping. Oh, yeah. You want to go first? Oh, well, I just needed to say that in my classic style, when I did

the story about the evil nurse from the 1800s that liked to kill people last week. Correction? Yeah. Okay. Because she used to do a combo of morphine and atropine. Did you see this? No. I always forget, A, that I'm talking to other people besides you and B, that a lot of those people are medical from the medical profession. They have studied and gone to school. That's so problem. I'm just, as I was reading my very light research, I just assumed that atropine would be the opposite of morphine. But actually, because of all the genius people that we have on our Facebook page, I learned from a person who I believe is either an RN or a medical registered person. I can't remember. They had, it was like three people who were like a doctor and nurse and someone else.

Yeah, I'll correct my correction. But they basically said atropine is the drug that stopped the, what's it called, the death rattle, which is the final sounds that you make that go on and on that terrible breathing at the end of life. I assumed atropine was some kind of an upper. I thought she was giving them uppers and downers. Like working with their uppity and downs? Yeah, like killing them and bringing them back. But that was just me assuming. Wait, so they're also downers. They're also downers. It's just different ways of shutting people's systems down. I literally wouldn't care if you ever corrected that. I know, but I have, I'm correcting it because I have a bad habit of making assumptions that are like, I make assumptions about medical knowledge and

stuff like that. So you think if you had said, I don't know what they are, you wouldn't have cared? Or is it because you, you, because I'm saying it as if I know it for a fact. And it's because my mom was a nurse. So I'd hear her use terminology. So I was like, I know what atropinus. Well, of course I fucking don't know what that's fair. Man, I say Giddish words that don't mean the right thing all the time because I heard my grandma say it. Well, you can apologize for that on your Yiddish podcast, but I have nothing to do with it. It's actually Yiddish true crime podcast. It was that. And the only, the other house came I have is just somebody made a really good point. They were offended when we were talking about Matt Dwyer's hometown murder and the kid not making

eye contact. There was somebody that was really hurt by the fact that it was like only psychos don't make eye contact. And we of course don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. There was a big long thread with a ton of people saying, I also have this problem. It makes me feel bad. I didn't like that part. And of course we apologize for that. Yeah, I'm so sorry that what a fucking, but we, we do that because we're just talking to each other. And this is a, this is a casual conversation that we often forget that we're making these mistakes. So you and I are both people that like it's like exaggerate, not exaggerating that it's not correct. Just like go, like go to the end of every single thing. We get into it of like, we're Matt Dwyer and now we're

walking next to the guy that won't make eye contact with us. And yes. So, so we gem and eyes is what we're saying. I'm a tourist. Fuck nevermind. I'm going to go ahead and make a correction from a minute from the second. It's a subset correction, but this is the point that I really liked in this thread. There's a bunch of people making each other feel better, which I really love. And that's seems to be what happens on our Facebook page. But also there was a guy who made this great point, which I really liked, which is that more commonly a sociopath or a psychopath makes too much eye contact because they, they are trying to read your face so they can manipulate you. So they often will stare at you for way longer than is natural and, and something that I

know from reading, they don't blink a lot. Wait, it's not cause I'm so beautiful that they can't take their eyes off of me. It's that too, Georgia. But also they're trying to figure out, they're trying to, as this guy was talking about reading micro expressions, figuring out like what's triggering you or scaring you or whatever, so they can manipulate you more. But also the thing of like people who are like that, who know they should be making eye contact. They just do it and don't understand how natural it should be. And so they do it overdo it. Right? Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. You're talking about sociopaths, right? Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Right. And that off, obviously there's a range. And so, but, but the, I just thought it was an interesting point of being like

actually the, the, the, the people who you really should look out for the people that make too much eye contact, which is really true. Well, I'm sorry to those people that we offended about the eye contact thing. We overdid it and we, yeah. And it's going to happen. Yeah. It's going to, it happens a lot. Yeah. You're in this for the long haul, which ends without killing someone. Which you certainly don't have to be. It is a podcast, by the way. Yeah. Oh, and I want to do a housekeeping of, okay, you guys, the t-shirts that you ordered and thank you. And that was, I'm so excited to see all your photos of you and your t-shirts. So this was our first t-shirt that we've done, and it's taking a little longer. And it was a pre-order, but I'm getting a lot of emails

from people saying, I ordered my shirt at this time. Where is it? So it's a pre-order, which means once the order is closed, I think it was on like June 6th, I sent them to the company, VG Kids, that are doing the screen printing for them, which is happening right now. Then they're going to get sent to the, there's another company called Whiplash that does all the order fulfilling. So I'm hoping by the end of June, everyone will have their orders. And I'm sorry it's taking so long. It's a learning curve. Next time we do t-shirts, which I think we're going to do a stay sexy, don't get murdered shirt next by again, by Michael Ramstead, who's such a fucking talented artist. He's the one who's doing the shirts that we have coming out right now.

I'm going to make it a shorter window of buying time. Well, also, we can just remind people more. A pre-order is basically like your, your, this is eight weeks wait time. Yeah. And the reason we do that is because some companies won't print shirts one at a time and also want to make sure you have a big enough order. Yeah. That they're making money off of it, which is totally understandable. And it was our first time out ever. So we didn't know if we were going to sell 20 shirts or 100 shirts. Totally. Totally. So those are coming out and I'm, and there you go. You're going to get them. And everyone's going to get them at the same time, which is kind of fun. Along with us.

Yeah. Yeah. Is it, can we wear our own pod? Is it like your own band shirt? Can we wear our podcasts? I think I'll wear mine around the house. Yeah. I mean, it would be weird for us. It's going to be weird to me for me to wear a shirt with a cartoon of me on it. I don't, that's not my style. Okay. You can. Oh, thanks. I mean, I won't judge you, I'm saying. I didn't mean that to sound so bitchy. We're not fighting. We just simply aren't. We just both have sarcastic voices. It's our tone. Um, should we get in to it? Yes. There was one more piece of housekeeping and I really want to remember and now I can't. Is it about me asking the Facebook page for help with this? And I teach you of cheating and then someone valiantly came to your

defense. Thank you. Thanks Vince. My husband. He's on there as a disguised as a woman. Yeah. Um, no. We can think of it later if you think of it. Okay. Doesn't have to be up top. Um, what makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton serial killer. I'll also bring

on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Yeah. So last week we had a challenge where we're going to have a topic and it's 1500s. 1500s. The reason I called you a tutor is because when you asked that, one of the first things that people posted was the one I wanted to do. Right. Here's my problem. I think 1500, I think anything pre-1800 is boring as fuck. I really don't care. Well, now we know that.

Now I didn't know that before. I didn't even know that or I was like, I don't fucking, who cares? You fucking like you and your corsets and your... God, there was so much Latin. There's a lot of Latin and there was a lot of calling people a witch and then just slowly murdering them like if they owed you money or you wanted their seat. Totally. And then there's just so much like, so much that is lore at that point. Yes. That is an interest. Like to me, it's like this thing happened in the 1920s. Like that was so recent. Yeah. And so interesting and also like he's going to step all over your computer and ruin your files. It's cats. This is hot cat action. This is what it's like. I'm used to it. I'm just, I really like that I be able to put myself in

someone's shoes and if the shoes are like made of fucking Fox skin and they're like, and they haven't invented laces yet and they like, you know, I just don't care. What about old clogs? Absolutely. Absolutely wouldn't. No. Legitimately wouldn't. That sounds so uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. What if they had nice high arches like arch support? They don't. If they do a peasant. I'm saying dream clogs. Okay. No, I would never wear clogs. I love clogs. I'm sorry. I think it's interesting, but when I went to read about it, there was just a lot of like extra ease at the, on the end of words and stuff where I was like, there's no way I'm reading that because it looks like something and like an old monk, uh, wrote in calligraphy. Yeah. Thanks.

Exactly. And I love a murder where I can be like, Oh, that like someone will write in like, that was my grandfather and my, or my grandfather is from the town that that happened. And I think it's, and he always said this and I mean, that can't happen. And so I wrote on the Facebook page. Can someone fucking tell me their favorite 1500 murder because I really don't know what mine is. Like I just don't have one. And then there was a great one. Yeah. Yeah. And I ended up using the one I kind of originally had thought of, um, this chick that everyone wanted to do, but like had, has been overdone, but the chick who bathed in blood. Bathory. Yeah. What a fucking cunt. I mean, but or, or was she being persecuted by the whatever church cat is probably. Yeah.

Who just spread these rumors about her to like get her under there. Except for there were witnesses. But see, that's the thing is like, I was reading that and I'm like, Oh no, it is real. They are witnesses. But this was back in the, in those times, it was like those, the witch hunt shit went from like the 1400s to the 1700s or something. Plus at that time, the people who wrote the history, who wrote the books of what happened could be shady as fuck too. Yeah. It's not like it's journalism the way it is today, which is still pretty fucking shady. It's like, you know, so wait, did you do her? No. Oh, okay. Because I think, um, who just did, I was it, um, someone just did a whole, a whole episode on her. Oh, okay. So I wasn't interested.

Oh, okay. So fuck them. We've been, uh, there, the, the week that I did the nurse, some other crime podcasted the nurse too. I was really sad. Sorry. I did not know. I'm fucking sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. Someone did mind. Yeah. I mean, they're just going to overlap. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's me or you. It's either me or you or Elvis. I think it might be me. Okay. Pretty sure. I don't, I mean, who cares, right? What's the diff? I mean, who gives up? Fuck. I did the Sony bean clan. Do you know those people? Which one? No, I mean, which one were they? Tell me in a story. Why don't I tell you story style? Do it. Okay. Lay your head back. Okay. On the cat. Close your eyes on a cat. Um, the Sony bean clan is an infamous Scottish family

from either the 1400s or the 1700s. Let's say the 14. They, why don't we know? Because it's this kind of, it's almost like a Scottish urban legend that they have attributed to several different eras. And it's because they think this one is definitely a propaganda that the English government used to make Scottish people look like barbarian. Yes. And deviance. But let's talk about it as if it's real first and then we'll talk about that part later. Love it. Um, so if he was real, this story, um, and, uh, the details from it, uh, are the source of horror films like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Ravenous, The Hills Have Eyes. So it's, yeah, because it's a family of cannibals. Sure. And it's a family of cannibals who live in a hidden cave who, uh, were a huge incestuous,

incestuous clan, uh, that only came out at night and they were highway robbers. So people would travel along these roads along the Scottish, um, countryside that was kind of like along the coast. And they would be trying to go between one, um, city and the other. And the Sony bean clan would come out from their, uh, cave that was hidden at high tide. So no one knew where they were and they would go out in the night, hide a highway traveler would go by on their horse and this clan of, of inbred, uh, cannibals would jump out, pull them off their horse, murder them, steal their shit, kill their horse, drag it all back to the cave, which apparently, uh, went a mile underground. Sounds like pretty sweet digs. Yes. And they would eat the meat of the people and then they had big

piles of possessions. So it was almost like a treasure cave, but also filled with horrors and blood and whatnot. So, um, so the head of it was Alexander Bean, who was born in the 1500s in East Lothian, Scotland, which is a few miles out inside of, outside of Edinburgh, uh, on the east coast of Scotland. And, uh, they don't know that much, uh, about the details of his life. They do know they kept saying that he was like, he was the son of like a ditch digger and a hedge trimmer or something like that. So basically like his father was a hardworking, you know, working class man. And they kept saying that he was lazy. Alexander Bean was lazy. He didn't want to do hard work. And so he basically left his family where his only option was to do what his father did.

He met up with a woman who also didn't want to do hard work. And her name was Black Agnes Douglas, which is probably my favorite name, uh, to date in the research of this podcast. Um, so Black Agnes Douglas and Alexander Bean, Sonny Bean, uh, settled into Ballantree together, um, which is city somewhere in Scotland. And then Black Agnes, uh, they were both run out of town because they suspected Black Agnes was a witch, of course. There's not such a fucking thing. Witches, too. Uh, well, but there are such things as women who are smarter than other people in their village. And so they have to live outside of society because different religion than every, all the majority of people who, yeah. Yeah, like a Jew. Yeah. A smart Jewish lady that wants to live on

the edge of town because you can't do a bullshit. Here I am at fucking Little Armenia. Hi, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drive you out of Little Armenia. Would you please? Cause I need to go to this fucking apartment. Anyways, Black Georgia, get out of here. So they end up in this cave in Benay Head, which is between Gervon and Ballantree on the west coast of Scotland. Okay. So Ballantree is on the west coast. Um, so, so basically you can't see the cave at High Tide. The tide goes out and suddenly there's a cave opening. You walk in 200 yards deep and then apparently it goes down so it's a mile underground. That's so cool. And, um, so they, Black Agnes, Sonny Bean, move into this cave. They have 14 kids. Holy shit. Then they end up having nearly 50 grandchildren incestuously.

Oh, no. Uh-huh. So they're this big, crazy clan. And, uh, I already told you that they'd come out at night. So they were hidden. They would attack people, rob them, murder them, take all their ship back to the cave. So they never left a trace. They never left a survivor and they ate them. So there was, it was as if these people were just disappearing. I mean, that's fucking off the grid, right? Right. So some say that there are a thousand deaths were attributed to the Sonny Bean clan. Um, and cause their reign of terror lasted for 25 years. Holy shit. Um, so it all ended one fateful night when the beans ambushed the beans, ambushed a married couple who were coming back from a fair. They were riding on a horse together and, um, the bean clan attacked them and pulled

the woman down off the horse, immediately murdered her, ripped open her stomach, pulled out her entrails, began eating her on the spot, blood everywhere. The husband who was a great fighter, according to these reports, um, had a had a sword and a pistol and he was fighting off the rest of the clan. Um, when a big group of fair goers kind of come around the corner on the road and so the Sonny Bean clan runs away. So they take the dead wife's body. This husband takes her body to the king and says this crazy clan of lunatics attacked me and my wife, murdered my wife. Here's her body. You got, you got to help me. So the king and, uh, his, uh, sorry, hold on. Can I say Sonny Bean sounds like in one of those like all you can eat soup and salad restaurants.

It's, you're exactly right. Sonny, interestingly enough, was a derogatory nickname for a Scottish person in England. So it'd be like how, uh, they called Irish people Patty. It was the same thing. So that's another reason what like all the historians and scholars say this is an urban legend because everything about this is, oh, the disgusting old Sonny Bean Scotsman. You know how they are, how they live in caves, eat human flesh and fuck their own children. Um, it's that it has that tone to it, but we're still pretending that it's real. So, um, they, they go to King James, the sixth of Scotland and tell him all about what happened. So he gets a manhunt going with 400 men and bloodhounds and, um, they look all around the countryside and they can't find anything until

the tide goes back out and the bloodhounds go crazy and find the opening of the cave. So cool. And then they go into it and this was the Captain Charles Johnson, uh, writing in 1742 describes what they found in the cave. Legs, arms, thighs, hands and feet of men, women and children were hung up in rows like dried beef and a great many limbs lay in pickle and a great mass of money, both gold and silver with watches, rings and swords, pistols and a large quantity of clothes, both linen and woolen and an infinite number of other, infinite number of other things which they had taken from those they had murdered. It's murder within apostrophe D, old fashioned murdered, were thrown together in heaps or hung up against the sides of the den.

And I've seen like a illustrations. So it's basically like candlelight and then just body parts hanging from this from a cave. Um, so they were said to have been all captured alive and taken in chains to the toll booth jail in Edinburgh. Um, then either transferred to Leith or Glasgow where they were promptly executed without a trial. The men had their genitalia, hands and feet cut off and then they let them bleed to death. The women were all burned and children don't. What would you rather have burned? I think it would be relatively faster. Oh, yeah. Okay. I mean, it would be horrible for like five minutes. That's a long time. It is a long time, but bleeding out with no extremities is rough. I think that would be quick. And I think

you, you'd be almost like numbed in a, in your brain. Getting burned alive seems like a fucking nightmare to me. Oh, wait, we had, did you see the message from the woman on Facebook who is a, there was someone on there that is a registered mortician who said she would answer any questions for us. I wonder if she would know something like that. Yeah. I guess that's not really her department of the, the actual dying. Right. But she can probably, I mean, like what's the paint? That'd be an interesting thing to know the pain factor and the window. Like how quickly do you go into shock if you are on fire? Like immediately, I want to know that. How long? Let's, let's, let's see if she'll do us a private AMA with us. And maybe we can like read them on it in a mini

episode. That's a good idea. So if you have questions for the licensed mortician and perhaps coroner, I don't, I can't remember. I'm definitely making up the coroner part right now, just for fun. Do you know I have an ex-boyfriend who's a, what is it called? Pathological liar. Like me. A lot of those. No, he's a, he's a, he picks up dead bodies and brings them to the mortuary. Wow. Yeah. And he was like my shitty, like my broken heart ex-boyfriend when I found that out that he did that I was like, you fucking dick. You busted me. Like the one that got away? No, I'm like glad he got away, but he like fucked me up when I did it. And then he had like the best, he also like had then living his best like my best life. He was like, you dick. I want to do that.

Whatever. He's gross. The mortician. Yeah. Anyways, yeah. I'm jealous of him too. Yeah. Well, it's also just interesting because I think there's some people who'd never be able to do a job like that. Like us probably. I know in reality, yeah, I think it would be a very, very difficult thing to do. Yeah. But so interesting. Like I would want to know all about it. I did too, but I didn't want to speak to him anymore. I'd be like, no, yeah, not that guy specifically, but that's like, that's like, um, there was a, there was a, uh, homicide detective that was at the same thing I was out. I think I told you about that. And I wanted to talk to him so bad, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. Yeah. Because I don't have any guts in that way of like, I can't do a cold call of like,

hi, I'm Karen. Tell me, uh, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about, but I mean, like how hot would that be if you were like going out with a homicide detective? Let me make you a casserole and get your goddamn slippers. Just saying, like, how was your day? Yeah. And how was your day? I really want you to tell me. You're not just asking that because you're being a good wife and like, how was your day? Tell me about like margin accounting. It's like what a bitch she is. Like, how was your fucking day? How was your day when you came up on the perp and shit? Like everything. Okay. Let me wrap this down. I'm almost finished. No, that's great. I love it. Uh, okay. So, um, did you do the most suspicious part of the Sonny Bean story is that no actual

proof of him or his numerous victims actually exist. So they were saying if this many people thought that what they say is like thousands over a 20 year period were truly disappearing from the Scottish coastline, there would be, it would be written in the newspaper or whatever, you know, the periodicals of the time, there would be reports of it. Um, and they don't have not, they don't have any proof of like him being born or existing and they don't have proof of people disappearing. It's all just hearsay. Would that not be his real name then? Do they have his real name? Alexander Bean. Oh, I mean, nobody named Alexander Bean. Yeah. Okay. Was born. So they say, um, the legend of Sonny Bean first appeared in what they called British

chat books, which were rumor magazines of the day. Um, yes, exactly. The old internet, ye old ye old internet, um, which today leads many to argue that the story was a political propaganda tool to denigrate Scots after the Jacobite rebellions, which had happened from 1648 to 1746, um, which would make sense. Uh, let's see. Scottish historian Dr. Louise Yeoman said that, um, the later King James, who was the guy that in the story, they say they brought that body to and who got the 400 people at the search party, um, said he was a keen hunter, but unlikely to have put himself in danger by leading a perilous trek like this. And, um, she also said if James had successfully led an ex expedition to face down a well armed group of

bloodthirsty cannibals, he would have never, we would have never heard the end of it. So he was the kind of King that like definitely bragged about any slight adventure that he ever went on. And yet not a word was written anywhere about him doing this. To me, that's the bigot. Like, that to me is the most like you can be like, well, maybe it was less victims and maybe his name was something different or spelled differently. But that is, if it's all written record, what he said. Yeah. And he was the kind of King that was like, uh, let me let you, let me tell you a little story about how I, I found the Sonny being great. Um, so, but maybe that part could have been, um, like instead of getting 400 people, they got 30 people and they were townsfolk. It didn't go

all the way to the King like who knows that part. I really don't want to let it go because I honestly think, well, and this is the other thing too. Um, author Sean Thomas disagrees with the fact that it is a urban legend. Cause he says, um, uh, if the Sonny Bean story is to be read as deliberately, deliberately anti-Scottish, how do we explain the equal emphasis on English criminals in those same publications? The British chapbooks, um, wouldn't such an approach rather blunt the point. So he was saying like it wasn't just that one story. There was all these stories. Um, but other people say, yeah, except for the Sonny Bean story is so bad and extreme that people have been talking about it for hundreds of years. That's the problem is that people have been talking about

it. So it constantly becomes more and more gruesome. And suddenly the King is involved when really it was just like the fucking head of the local township. Right. Yeah. They also said that a lot of the local innkeepers were hanged even though they were innocent because they were always the last people to see those highway travelers alive. But then that, that's another thing we're like, well, then they would, there would be record of their, um, death and then they can't find any of those. Um, so, uh, author Fiona Black writes in her book, The Polar Twins, the monstrous figure of Sonny Bean is written history was probably an English invention. Cannibalism has a long history as a means of political propaganda used by the dominant culture against those they want

to colonize. As an English invention, Sonny may be considered a colonial fiction written to demonstrate the savagery and uncivilized nature of the Scots in contrast to the superior qualities of the English nation. Yeah. Um, and also, so whether it's true or not, um, the one thing as an urban legend, the story of Sonny Bean represents the extremes humans are forced to go to when famine and poverty drive them to commit terrible deeds to survive, which is something that we all know the British really did do when they were colonizing Scotland and Ireland. You know, the Irish potato famine was not a famine because the crops failed. The English went in and took all of the crops out of Ireland. So people were starving while boats filled with food were being shipped over to England.

They took all the food and intentionally starved Ireland so that they could take over the land. So this is something England did as a practice. So it also could be the story of like these were people who are forced in these extreme measures. They didn't have anything else to eat. And then the story kind of came out from there. Fucking colonialism, man. It's not cool. It's super not cool. It's kind of not kind of ruined. You just like gone and pissed on a bunch of fucking continents and marked your shitty. So that's that's a Sonny Bean story. I was kind of bummed when I first heard that it was an urban legend because it's such a good like, you know, it's like Texas Chainsaw Massacre. What better scary thing than the long slow, like people just disappearing

off a road. And then the idea that it's in the middle of the night, a family of inbred lunatics are coming to just pull you off your horse and eat you. It's not even just like one crazy guy. Right. One wild and crazy guy. It's like 50. It's like 50. Nutters. Scary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope it's not true. I don't know what to hope anymore. What's your favorite murder? My favorite 1500 murder that you hate in general. I hate it. No, actually, I had been reading about this like a couple of months ago because I had I had never really heard the term, but I had never understood the story because fuck Shakespeare. The Princess in the Tower. Oh, I saw that on the list, but I didn't read that one. Yeah. So this was this

reminded me of that. And it's a really interesting story. It takes place in 14 around starts in 1483. It starts in 1483 with the Oh, God, I have to do this again. And I meant to look this up. Oh, you're gonna get in big trouble pronouncing it wrong. No, this is embarrassing. So one with a V is five, right? When the one is before the V, it's four. And if it's after it's six, fourth grade was a really hard year for me. Dude, who gives a fuck about Roman numerals? Seriously? Okay. Wait. Yeah, because X is 10. Okay, okay. So Edward the fourth of England. He died unexpectedly on April 9, 1483. He had two sons, Edward the fifth, I guess. Edward the fifth of England just killed him. Edward V. Edward V. Last name is V. Edward V. And who was 12 and

Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York, who was nine. That doesn't sound like a nine year old's name. No. And it's almost like you can't be you can't be the maybe Prince one. You can't be the Prince, but here you go. You're the Duke of York. Yeah, just like cool. Ricky Shrewsbury. Ricky Shrewsbury. Yeah. Okay. So, so Edward dies unexpectedly. But right before his death, he designates his brother Richard as Lord Protector. Richard the third? No, I don't know. Okay. Richard II? I don't see II. No, Richard as Lord Protector. Okay. Yes. No, we'll see. Yes. Let's read this. Sorry. Sorry. Why would I even ask a question? No, I feel stupid. So I wrote down, turns out he was a dick. I wrote that on my notes. So Richard was a fucking dick. It's Richard Duke of Gloucester.

He sets out for London after. I think it's Gloucestershire. Sorry. Sorry. I could definitely be wrong. No, you're right. You're right. Gloucestershire. This is the kind of thing like Edinburgh. It looks like it's Edinburgh, but it's Edinburgh. Yeah. And you're supposed to know that even though you're from fucking Northern California or Southern California. We're Americans. We're couldn't be more California. We're Americans. And we're like, we don't even know what's going on. So Gloucester. Gloucester? Gloucester. I don't know. Anyways, you know what, we're gonna hear, we're gonna hear plenty from people who do know. He sets out from for London. Is that how you say it? Yeah. Yeah. So he sets out for London after his bro dies. The following morning,

he arrests Edwards. Oh, my God, I can't read any of this. I mentioned his uncle, the uncles. So they're half brother. So they he arrests the other kid. Like he's just already being like dicking around. Yep. And they were sent to a castle where they were fucking the uncle and the and the half brother were fucking immediately beheaded in Yorkshire. Wait, the nine and the 12 year old? No, not yet. Oh, sorry. The nine and the 12 year old's other uncle and half brother got it were immediately beheaded. So because because Edward, the fifth was the heir to the throne. So he was supposed to once his dad unexpectedly died, he was supposed to be fucking King. So then Richard fucking grabs these two kids, these two

little ones, Edward, the fifth of England, and Richard of Shrewsbury. He takes possession of them. The Elizabeth Woodville, who was the wife of Edward, who just died, takes her other son, Richard, Duke of York, then her daughters into a sanctuary. She's like, fuck this and like later days. Then Richard. So Edward, the fifth and Richard arrive in London together. And then so plans start for Edward's coronation, but the date kept being postponed. So this 12 year old kid who just lost his dad was like about to be the king, which is insane. Very game of thrones. Very. So on May 19th, 1483, Edward was lodged in the Tower of London. Scary. It's the traditional residents of monarchs prior to the coordination. So he's still like, I'm gonna be king. And then on June 16th, he was

joined by his younger brother, this kid Richard Ricky, good old Ricky, who was previously in the sanctuary. But at this point, the date of Edward's coronation was indefinitely postponed by their Dick, Uncle Richard, Uncle Dick. Tricky Dick. Tricky Dick. Got it. So then on Sunday, June 22nd, a sermon was preached at St. Paul's Cross and claiming Richard to be the only legitimate heir of the House of York. So at this point, there's like this crazy conspiracy to get this guy Richard tricky dick to be the king instead. Yeah. So a group of lords, knights and gentlemen petitioned Richard to take the throne. Both princes were, the two kids were subsequently declared illegitimate by parliament because Richard like changed the laws. It was an act of parliament known as

titulus regios. Regios. Again, I fucking hate. Yeah. We don't speak a lot. No. So he said that the marriage between Edward IV and Elizabeth's marriage was invalid because of some contract of a pre-marriage. So like he made some bullshit law up and said that these kids aren't legitimate. So this one can't be king. So this, so rich. So he was crowned King Richard III. You were correct, ma'am. I was correct. You were correct. A miracle of England on July 3rd. And the declaration of the boy's illegitimacy had been described as an ex-post facto justification for him getting the fucking throne. And it's recorded that after he sees the throne, Edward and his little and Ricky were taken to the quote inner apartments of the tower and they were seen

less and less. Sometimes they were seen like playing outside, but less and less. And Edward was regularly visited by a doctor who reported that like a victim prepared for sacrifice, he sought remission of his sins by daily confession and penance because he believed that death was facing him. Like this kid was like a 12 year old boy. Yeah. This kid was like, I know what's happening. I mean, he's been, he's been raised to be, to be ready to be Prince. He was probably a fucking smart kid. Yeah. Right. And knows what happened with monarchies. You know, it happened a bunch. Sure. Pretty standard stuff. Yeah. So there's reports that they're seeing playing around the tower, but no recorded sightings of either of them after the summer of 1483. There was an attempt

to rescue them, but it failed. And it's, it's at this point, the reason it failed is because they were already dead. That's, that's what they think is that the reason it failed is that they were already dead. Other than their disappearance, there's no direct evidence that they were murdered and no, quote, reliable, well-informed independent or impartial sources for the associated events. So it's, it's a speculation that they were murdered, but it's, there's a lot of evidence as to it happening. Well, yeah, because there's somebody that has a really good reason to murder them. Very good. And they're never seen from again. Right. And also when you're the king, you can get all that shit taken care of and not have any evidence laying around. Right. So jump to

like more recently, four unidentified bodies have been found, which are considered possibly connected with the events. Let's see. Okay. So the theory, the theory that I think is the most correct and seems to be the like, this is what everyone thinks it is. So there's this guy named James, Sir James Tyrell, who was an English knight who fought for the house of York on many occasions. And he was acting as, uh, he was the loyal servant of Richard the third. So he was arrested by Henry, the just sounded out. How many V11 seventh Henry, the seventh forces in 1502. I'm so, this is dude, please. Okay. And 1502 for supporting another Yorkist claim to the throne. So he's arrested and he was going to get executed and he was tortured and he's like, yeah, it's, I was,

I was, I did it because Richard the third told me to really confesses to this guy, uh, name Thomas Moore and more said that the princes, uh, this guy told them they were smothered to death in their beds by two agents by the sky Tyrell and were then Tyrell and then we're, then we're buried quote at the stairfoot neatly deep in the ground under a great heap of stones. But we're later disintern and buried in a secret place. They were under the guard of the tower of London while they were there, which was controlled by Richard the third's men and access to them to the princes was, was strictly limited by his instructions, which is like that that's a fact. He could therefore have dispatched one of his retainers to murder the princes on

his behalf, but it's unlikely that they could have been murdered without his knowledge. You know what I mean? He did it. These little fucking poor kids were. So in 1674, some workmen were remodeling the tower of London, giving it a little, little makeover. 16 something for 1674. Okay. They dug up a wooden box containing two small human skeletons. I know the bones were the bones were found buried 10 feet out of the staircase, leading to the chapel of the white tower. They were not the first children's skeletons found within the tower. Oh, no. What are you fucking doing in there? They did whatever they wanted. Sure. To the bones of two other children had been found in a chamber that had been walled up, which could have also been them. So like you

find two sets, two sets of two, of two children's bones, like the chances are that one of them is going to be. Yeah. Except Queen Elizabeth II has not granted the approval for DNA testing. She's like, nope. Queen Elizabeth II is our current one. I think so. And no, sorry. I didn't mean no, yeah. Only why? What does she care? I mean, it's going to, it's going to look badly on, on them. Oh, it's too late. Most people think they're lizard people. Don't they realize? Yeah. Have you ever heard that theory? No. David Ike? No. Oh, that's fascinating. What is it? They think that there's just that the basically the most powerful and richest people on the planet are actually lizard people. Oh, there was a last podcast on the left about that. Yeah. It's I

haven't heard that, but my friend Laura used to read all David Ike books and websites and then tell me what they said. And she started out thinking it was funny. And then after a while, it got a little real. And I was like, you need to stop reading that shit. Like she believed it? She just was reading a lot of it. She's like submerged herself in the world a little much, where it's basically once you suspend disbelief a little bit, then you can go, you know, then you can kind of believe what, you know, that everybody's kind of like a, they say that they're like these weird, they have the ability to change from lizards to people. Wow. That's all like most royalty are actually lizard people. That's stupid. It's a little heavy. Like why lizards? I don't know. Maybe

it's because it's like you could see it like they're part alien or something. Okay. I actually believe alien more than lizard. Yeah. I don't know. Anyways, the end is that the bones were removed and examined in 1933. And the archivist, the leading anatomist, he said that they concluded that the bones belonged to two children around the correct ages for the princes. Oh, yeah. That was in the 30s that they did that. Oh, that's cool. But since then, they won't, they won't let them test them. That's all. That's the only word they want to hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what's funny is we went to the Tower of London, my sister and I, but we had such bad jet lag that we were trying to stay up till a normal hour,

so that when we went to sleep, because we landed at like nine in the morning. Yeah. But for us, it was like two in the morning. So then it was like for us, it was like we're trying to stay up all night. So we took all these tours. So we walked through the Tower of London, we did all the stuff, but neither of us can remember it because we were like exhausted. Oh my God. And then we finally went to sleep at four o'clock and then we woke up at three in the morning and we had jet lag for like four days while we were in England. It sucked. I did that and I did that too in places. If you don't do it right, you can really screw up like your whole vacation. That's true. One of the only memories I have is like going to the aquarium that they have there,

really, a really awesome one, and petting a little stingray that would, they would come up to the sides of the tank like little dogs. Oh my God. Cute. But I was in luck. I mean, of all the memories I have of London, I could have done that in Monterey. That's true. Anyhow, we were, I'm just saying the Tower of London did not seem to me to be the kind of place any kid would ever want to be. No, not a fun little hangout. No, not a good summer camp. Well, that's 1500s. Next, next time can we do, can we do like a 70s one? I mean, this was a misstep. I admit it. 100%. Were those okay? I feel like I, I feel like I'm going to edit out some of the stupider shit I said. Look, you can, you can edit whatever you want, but I think stupid. If anyone is coming

here to learn, they've made a terrible mistake. And also, um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, let's do like, so your, your, your episode about, or your murder about, um, the chick who this hand's got fucking sliced off, Mary Vincent, Mary Vincent, fucking crawling her stump way. Yeah. That's like the most talked about one. Right. So people like gruesome shit. Well, and also I think it's just, it's if it's a good story. Yeah. It's a survivor story, a survivor story or something so insane. Like for me, what I like is when it's something where you're like, I'm sorry, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, how was that possible in the human experience? Yeah. What depraved fuck up in this or like crazy planning. Yeah. Should we do survivors next week?

We can. Oh my God. I know the one I want to do. If you want to do survivors. Yeah. Let's do it. I survived. Uh, I'll tell you, mine will be from an I survived. I'm sure it will. You're obsessed with that show. I, this is when I tell people at parties. He told me, don't tell me. I don't know. I sometimes when I can't think it, I think part of this obsession is when I can't think of what to say. I'll just go into somebody else's tale of amazing survival. You know, lately when I've at like a, when I am short of a conversation and I'll ask people their hometown murders. You will? Yep. Do you get some good ones? Sometimes people see it's funny how much, how people just jump into the conversation like it's normal. Yes. Which I really appreciate. I do too. And like,

I've been at like a, you know, around a whole table of people and it's like awkward chit chat. And then I'll, and then I'll be like, Oh, I'm from Arizona. And I'm like, Oh, were you there when that this thing happened? Yeah. And then it just starts this like fun conversation. Well, cause, and also cause people have such extreme reactions to it, either they're super into it or super repelled by it. Yeah. But it is a fun like, Oh, I can't, if you guys are going to talk about this, I can't be here. Right. Go away. Yeah. That's exactly what I end up saying. Can we, um, yeah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fucking, you don't have to make your whole life around someone else's comfort or not. No, why would you?

No, go ahead. Should we read a hometown? Please do. Before we end. Yeah. There's one that I have. Let's see. That was really great. Uh, hold on one second. Let's see. This is a whole music. Back in the 1500s. So Krista wrote a hometown murder. And the subject is this is the one in all caps. So I'm like, I'm going to read that one. Well done, Krista. And people have been been really good at like putting awesome subject lines on it. Like they'll put like what it, like murder, suicide, blah, blah, blah. This is crazy. Yeah. I'm reading that. Nice. So okay, here's Krista's story. Okay. In 1993, my 18 year old neighbor went missing. Rose Larner was her

name. I was younger, so I didn't really know her well, but did know her younger brother who was only a year ahead of me in school. It was December in Michigan. And I can remember my best friend and I intentionally walking past Rose's house when her mother also named Rose kept a lone candle burning in the window as a symbol for her missing daughter. The police didn't really seem to do much since Rose was 18. Hey, 1993. Yeah. She was legally in doubt. However, it was very eerie. According to reports, her boyfriend and her childhood friends said that the last saw her early that morning and that was it. She totally vanished. For two years, there was no answer about Rose until the childhood friend, Billy Brown, fearing he was going to be arrested,

confessed that the boyfriend, John Ortiz Kehoe, strangled Rose at his grandparents house. Those poor people. According to Billy, John became infuriated when Rose refused to participate in a threesome. Reports said that he strangled her, took her to the shower, slit her throat, dismembered her and burned her body in the grandparents fire pit with the help of Billy. Jesus. High school. Can you imagine? Yeah. Here's where it gets seriously disturbing, she says. Really? What? I'm I was there. According to Billy's testimony, he and John had gone to the store that day and purchased sandwich making items, bread, turkey, etc. While they were watching Rose's body burn, John commented that he, quote, wondered how flesh would taste, cut off a remaining piece of Rose,

put it in a sandwich with some mustard and ate her. There were no words. There are no words. Billy claims John tried to eat another piece, but spit it out because the flesh had too much gasoline on it. That's why he's fucking spit it out, which they'd used to burn her body. Police were able to find a speck of blood at the grandparents house and identified it as Rose. Kehoe is in jail for life, but has a fucking blog, a blog protesting his innocence. She says, Billy Brown only got a year in jail, which is like, it's weird that they only found a speck. Yeah, that's strange. Yeah. Kehoe still claims that he is innocent of all this and states that Brown sold him out because both were drug dealers, users and Billy was afraid. He would get sent

to jail unless he gave the police a story, a story to bargain with. Oh, wait a second. So then was it not true that he like, was that the eating part not true? Well, he got convicted. But I mean, Oh, is he saying that he made that up or something? He's saying he didn't kill her at all. Any of it. Oh, which is interesting that you would think that there would be more than a speck of blood. Yeah, that's true, especially for our high school here in 1993, who doesn't understand like luminal and how to like find blood stains, even in the pipes of the shower. Although I guess it was two years later. Two years. That's true. But, but that you're right that if they looked at it with luminol, wouldn't it still be there? Yeah. So they either killed her

somewhere else or didn't. But it sounds like the cutting happened in the shower. Yeah. But would it still be in there? I mean, I wonder if luminol picks up. If he strangled her, then, then slid her throat in the shower. But if you dismembered her, then, you know, how do you carry body parts? Unless he did the dismemberment outside. But there'd still be. Then if it was like in dirt, if the blood was in dirt, right? Or he took the body parts straight from the shower into like a garbage bag. Dude, you know what? Like, what about the fire pit? I feel like there'd be so much evidence in there, like ashes and. Yes, for sure, because you can't burn a human body like at just a normal fire pit. No, there'd be bone fragments, something.

Even when you burn a body, when it's being officially, and we've got a mortician we can talk to about this, but there's a certain heat at which it burns. And even then, there's still bones left over. I've seen the remnants of a cremated body. Yeah. It's fucking creepy. Well, yeah. Oh, that's not that satisfying. So it's either they did it or they completely didn't. It sounds like the most obvious answer, except for maybe why he did it and the eating of the body part. Right. I mean, it's just, it's so making a murderer. Yeah. It's so that thing where then you're, when you are left, when I am left in stories like that, I can fill in those blanks so easily and just be positive. Someone's guilty. But why would the cops run with it if

they had already been like, no, she ran away. It wasn't like, oh, we haven't solved this murder, this like crime of this disappearing girl. Well, because don't you think they always suspect, like the closest, if it's a girl that's disappeared, they always suspect the boyfriend or a male relative? Like, I'm sure they had their four favorites. I just also feel like, oh, so they must have, they must have interviewed the boyfriend and the best friend in the beginning and grilled them. I feel like one of them would have cracked. Like it's again, high schoolers. Yeah. But high school drug dealers, maybe they were on drugs. I always think it's so fascinating, that whole thing of like, how drugs can affect like a lie detector test, sorry, the hiccups.

A lie detector test or like any of that stuff where you can kind of weirdly, like, you can neutralize your, your energy and make them not suspect you. Well, also, I guess if you're a drug dealer, you're already kind of like our anti authority. So the thought of like, succumbing and confessing, because succumbing to the interrogation and confessing is like, it's like a feat of strength to be like, no, I didn't do it. I didn't let them. Yeah. And if they're drug dealers, maybe they'd already dealt with the cops a lot. So it wasn't so scary as it would be for you and I. Right. Friday night, Vince and I did nothing and sat at home and watched the OJ Simpson, the news Simpsons documentary, the 30 for 30, which I haven't

finished yet. Don't even, I'm only on part four. And you and I texted and had some funny jokes about it. Yes. And that's like, that was perfect. We had some wine and we had snacks and like, that's like my, my perfect moment with cats surrounding us and, and fucked up murder. I love that special. I was talking, I went to a party on Saturday night last Saturday, and I was talking to my friend about that. And I just kept saying to her, I'm so embarrassed. It, my reaction in 1995 or whenever that, that, um, uh, verdict came down, was it 95 or 94? I want to, yeah, 94, 95. I can't remember. But whatever it was, I just very much remember. I remember hearing like on the radio on talk radio or whatever black, the black reaction was

like, good, this is what we deserve. You know, it's only just, and I remember just thinking, this is crazy. I don't understand what these people are talking about. And now it took 25 years practically. And to now understand what they meant, it makes me embarrassed. Um, that like, that's what they're talking about when they talk about white privilege. There are stories in that documentary I'd never heard before. I didn't know about that 12 year old girl that got shot in the back by the Korean store owner. I didn't know about the woman who got shot on her front lawn over an enter, like a gas bill. Yeah. Like there's all this news that I didn't know about that I like, we just weren't privy. Like the news was so different back then.

Totally. And right. I mean, you think like racism, you know, not in my lifetime so much better. We don't, we're not this way. We're fucking horrible. Yes. Because we, because ultimately it's, you don't know what you don't know. And a lot of people talk like when people, when there's the Black Lives Matter, um, you know, campaign, and then there's these other people going, all lives matter where it's like you're, you are missing the point. Totally. And what you're saying is, as if you understand what these people are going through, you do not. Your privilege is such that you have no idea. It made me, even though I'm not at all racist and no one in my family is, and it's not, you know, it's nothing I've ever encountered

on my own, in my own life. It made me so embarrassed. Yes. For, it's because we shouldn't, because if you don't know, then you shouldn't be going, this is ridiculous. You know what I mean? Like it's that judgment of privilege that's embarrassing to me because yeah, I always thought I was middle class, working class. Totally. My parents are from, both were raised by Irish immigrants who are poor and bootstrapped and all that kind of stuff. So nobody has that kind of like, I always look at that as like, oh, the 1% and those people that don't understand whatever, that's not us. It absolutely is, is you, if you haven't had the experience and that, that's, but that's the brilliance of that documentary series is people are legitimately having their

eyes open. Totally. I can't wait to finish it. And it's, it's heavy. I hear the fifth episode is insanely grisly because you see the bodies. There's crime scene photos. Is that the first time they've ever been shown like legally and publicly, I wonder? I'm not sure. Oh God, I don't want to see. It's apparently very graphic and upsetting. I just remember hearing when I was like, when it happened that I, there's the first time I ever heard this and I've unfortunately heard it since that her neck was so slit that it was almost, she was almost beheaded. Yeah. Like that has stuck with me. I've seen it a couple, heard it a couple, read it a couple times in other crimes since then. Yeah. And it, it, it gives me the chills. It's so crazy. It's so crazy.

And the weirdest part is that all of it, like the entire story is really huge. Like you just wouldn't, anybody who hasn't seen this documentary, you really have to see it. And the beginning, the first episode is really all about OJ and his football career, which I was like, boring, but then it makes you understand who he was and why it mattered because I didn't care about football. Right. So I didn't understand what a huge person, I saw him in the naked gun. Right. And I was like, he's that actor, you know, but like even him getting, I was just so interesting what it meant for him to be as huge as he was. Right. And he was one of the first people, he was one of the first black men that was presented as like a commercial aspirational

figure, which had never happened before. Yeah. For neither, for not just for black people. No, for everybody. Yeah. At large. It's so fascinating. Yeah. Highly recommended. Crazy. Yeah. Well, I tried to end it on a positive note. And then I ended up talking about fucking up the Simpsons again. Oh, also, there's a series my sister told me to start watching, which is on PBS called Tunnel. Have you heard of that when you just told me about where there's, they find a body in the channel between France and England. And it's a woman's body that they laid perfectly on the line between England and France. And it's really good. It just started, I keep checking my DVR thinking that there's going to be another one. And it's like, no,

you're new to this series. You have to wait a week, but it's driving me crazy. Yeah. Because it's that good. I can't do that anymore. I know. I want to watch everything at once. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's watch that. What do you guys like? What are you guys into? What's your favorite murder? What's your hometown murder? Email us at my pickups now. Email us at my favorite murder at Gmail. Tell us your hometown murder. Make that subject line real interesting. Again, your t-shirts are coming soon. They're being made. It was a preorder. Thank you for being patient. Yeah. We'll never go anywhere past 19, let's say 1910. Or we can go to the late 1800s. I feel like yeah, late 1800s is pretty cool because there's like a lot of like nefarious

villains and stuff, which is fun. And you can like picture the mustaches and stuff. Yeah. But everything else is just like crazed. Yeah. Crazed ignorance. Yeah. And tell your friend, tell a friend about this podcast. And let's, let's, we really, you guys, this is so exciting. I love this podcast. It's pretty fun. And our Facebook page, we have almost 16,000 people on. It's so nuts. It's so nuts. And thank you so much to all of our, I always forget the word. Murderinos. Our murderinos. Yes. But our, the people that run that page. Oh, our murderators. They, our murderators bust their ass. They really keep it in line. It's exactly how we want it. People being cool to each other, people talking about stuff, but, but keeping it on topic and

kind of keeping it clean. So we can just go on there and read these stories people post. We can, you know, not too many memes, like they just keep it nice and like on, on point for us. And there's a lot of murderers up there too. So you guys can read them because we have a ton in our email, but you, but that you guys need to see. But actually, I think I'm going to start posting them as like blog posts on our Patreon. Oh, good idea for free or whatever. I don't know how to do it, but yeah, we don't. So my favorite murder or Patreon, I think I'm going to start posting some of the ones we're not going to read. Okay. On there. And my favorite murder at Twitter on Twitter. And there's like, you guys should listen to the other episodes. They're

not from the 1500s. Oh my God. This thing was, you know what? This was fun about this. This was like a plane that was kind of crashing, but then it pulled the, pulled the nose up at the end and then it just kind of skidded into the dirt. We skimmed, we skimmed the trees. We did our best. Sometimes it's fun to listen to people try. It is. And I'm sure it was there were funny moments. Well, intentionally or otherwise. I like that you tried to end it on a positive. I really did. And Elvis isn't here, so I can't make him meow. Should I try to get him to come out? It's just a fucking shit show. Elvis, you better get out here right now. Elvis need, Elvis come to the building. Elvis. Elvis. Hi. Do you want a cookie?

Thank God. Hey Karen, stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye.