My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 222 - That’s How Water Works

Episode Date: May 14, 2020

Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Madalyn Murray O'Hair and the survival story of Juliane Koepcke.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. This episode is brought to you by Defending Jacob and new Apple TV Plus limited series based on The New York Times bestseller. It's a suspenseful character driven drama starring Chris Evans, Michelle Dockery and Jaden Martell. Defending Jacob is available exclusively on Apple TV Plus. Open the Apple TV app and watch the first two episodes for free today. We had a chance to talk to the show's screenwriter and director earlier in the week so stick around to hear that

conversation at the end of the episode. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder long form. That's Karen Kugara. That's Georgia Heartstar. And we're good at this. Stephen on the ones and twos. We're all here. Everybody. Everyone is here, meaning their own houses and they're away from each other. As far away as possible. We've all moved to the four corners of Los Angeles County. I live in Pocoima. Georgia went down to Downey. Wow. Stephen went back to his old apartment in what was it? Alhambra. Everyone's Stephen. Stephen used to commute in from Alhambra or just be like, dude, is that necessary? They had a nice target. And a suplantation. RIP. Stephen sent us an article this week and I was seriously

heartbroken that suplantation is shutting down. It's a problematic name. And so maybe. Best case the name is never going to be resuscitated. And that's great. You gotta hope. What made we laughed so hard because we, you know, we talk about suplantation a lot and there used to be one near Georgia's old apartment. And then Stephen let us know on the text thread that that's where he brought his girlfriend, who's a professional chef, to the, on their first date, he brought her to suplantation. And I said, I love it. Classy, Stephen. And then he sent me back the best gift of Manny from modern family drinking out of a little espresso. Go. You can't be out. You cannot be in the exactly right network family

if your gift game isn't a fucking A plus. It's very competitive. And I would say Georgia, you're amazing at it. But Stephen is like, it's because he's so young. It's like you have them at the ready. Right. I picked like the first, like when I put in a word, I'll pick like the top three, one of them. But Stephen's like deep cut gifts. Yeah. And then of course you've saved on my phone. Yeah. You've got the savers. You've always got the Kim K peeking from around the edge that just fits everything. Everything. It's perfect. It's like the best beige color in the world where it just fits every scenario. If you don't know what we're talking about, she's peeking around the corner. Maybe we'll put it on the Instagram.

Her peeking. It's just, it's perfect. I feel like we've definitely posted it before. Yes. We talked about this gift a lot. But like there's a, she's got a look on her face that might be playful and, you know, like she's full of beans, except for that there is actually no expression on her face except for teeth. So then you're, you can interpret anything. You can project anything onto Kim K's face. And I do. And it works. And we have. But then Georgia, there was the time where you had the cartoon guy that looked like it was from like a total 80s cartoon. And it was like, someone told us we did something good. I think this might have been an agent thread. And you just had this cartoon guy that looked like I was going like noodling,

like like a guy with an electric guitar. And I was so jealous. Like an air jealous, like a air jealous, like an air guitar going. Yeah. Like a nice riff, a riff. Yes. Perf, like a prideful riff or I had done the very, like I had done one of those Beyonce queen gifts. Yeah. And it was just expected. It's like, you can do it. That's fine. But everyone does those ones. But did you know according to your secrets, according to Vince, I'm actually really good at an air guitar. Like you're really playing chords and stuff. Like it's kind of one of our things. So we're like, if I want to make Vince laugh, I hate telling all our secrets, but like do it. No, I'll do it someday on stage someday when we have a live show and all this is over our first

live. Okay. How about I promise our first live show back to the fucking air guitar. Yes, please. What a celebration that's going to be. I know it's I almost tweeted this today because first of all, thank you everybody for all your lovely birthday wishes. Well, to me, it was horrifying. It was my day. It was horrifying. And it was Monday. But I stayed off because like it's I think it's very cheesy when people are like, thanks so much to every single person or whatever. But it was really just so lovely. And people said really nice things. And it was just cool. Yeah. And then I was going to tweet this morning, I was going to be like, thank you so much. And thank everybody. And then say, it's just so sad that I can't on tour, I can't go out and do

my Molly Shannon impression, impression and do the Sally O'Malley kick. I'm 50 kick strategy. But then I mean, so it's so sad. Then I realized that would make it look like I was trying to make the people who hadn't sent me a birthday wish, like, like there could be a guilt implication. I was like, just leave it all alone. But I did get sad thinking about how I used to do that on stage and that we don't get to like, I know, public anytime soon on the actual day of you being 50, and you've done this on stage, you don't get to kick your legs out and yelling 50 while Vince brings out of a fucking tray of whatever some really nice person brought us backstage, like donuts, it's true with a candle in it. And then the fire marshal has to follow with

it. There's I've had it, I think either two or three birthdays in a row on the road. Yeah. I mean, at least two guys. I'm so sick. Guys, we miss you. Well, we have another month until I turn 40. So and then we're just going to go rogue. Then we don't have like, it's our liberty. I told Georgia I want to restart the concept of the book club. We the last time, which was very early in the first year. And we tried to get everyone to read V. C. Andrews, my sweet Audrina, which was we respect the the the the legacy. Yes. V. C. Andrews was a legend. She ruled the 80s. It was an unreadably bad app. It was just strangely dirty, strange. Yeah. A lot of incest themes, not even the incest. The whole thing was incest. Yeah, it wasn't a suggestion. It was

happening on the page. That's right. Very odd. I felt embarrassed that that was my pick. But lots of people wanted to do it. And so since we're we're consuming so much more, right? Everything needs those. One would say to Georgia. Let's resuscitate this thing. Let's get it back up on its legs and read a book. So yeah, we're each going to tell you the book we're currently reading. And if you feel like joining us, then we can bring it up occasionally and talk about it. But it's it's again, podcasting is a one way street. So we'll tell you what we think about the book. And yeah, that's about it. And you'll comment on our Twitter and Instagram how you feel about it. Yes, exactly. And then tell us what book we should read next, which is cool.

Completely. And if you get your comments in and we collect them up in time, we can pretend funny ones. Yeah, we can have a whole, you know what, Steven might be able to bring some book club music up under and maybe sound effects like we're all drinking wine and someone's weird living room and talking and actually having a book club. Let's just work. We'll work it through. Let's workshop it. But here's the book that I'm reading. What are you reading? Currently, the reason I got excited about this is and also I tell my dad because my dad reads books in like two days on his Kindle. So I just told him to read this one. So he's going to do it too. Oh, cool. Jim. Right. Home gym. Home gym involved in the podcast. I sent him this, the listener

art whoever made the the art for home gym. Let me find it. It looks like your dad. And there's one photo of him on the entire internet and somehow this person make moody. It's not too hard. It's make moody. Make moody drew this incredible fan art and it fucking looks like your dad. It looks like him. It looks like him laughing too, which is my favorite part. But when I texted that art to him and he was like, what the hell is this? It took me 10 minutes to explain like how that I was like, dad, I told the story of me asking you what you thought about pretty. Yeah. It was a whole thing that he couldn't get through his head because he doesn't understand how they did it that fast. He doesn't understand why they would care to do it. It doesn't remember

what he said. He doesn't remember the conversation. But he was really impressed. He was really excited. And then sorry, sidebar before I tell you the book. He told me the story. He's getting all the carpet, which is so exciting me and my sister. Oh God, childhood carpet. Yes. He's pulling up all that old mauve. I mean like deeply mauve. Holy late 80s carpet that has wine stains and sandwiches. All over it. Sandwich remains. Maybe like a little mold by the sliding glass door where the rain came in one time, you know, it's all pulled up and he put in hardwood floors. That's like next level. Right. Sprucing up your place. I know. And it's like he's, you know, it's like it was like his project. But so it's a father son team that are putting in these hardwood

floors. And so they're, and my dad's talking to the son, the younger guy. I mean, the son's like, I think my sister's age, but they're staying there talking and he's looking at, you know, the pictures or whatever. And my dad has, we, when we played Louisville listeners who worked at Louisville slugger bats, you know, Louisville slugger, like the factory. Yeah. And they, they made me, Georgia and Vince, all our own personalized. Steven, right? No. Sorry. Sorry, everybody. Steven, we're going to get you back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're getting a live bat. So it's my dad has it in a glass box mounted on the wall. Like I was like a Babe Ruth or something and you hit the fucking home run with it. Oh my God. For real. And this was the, you remember

when we got those, I called him because I thought he'd be so excited. Yeah. And he kept going, where'd you find it? And I'd be like, God, the people from the place made it. And I was like, so infuriated. But once he had it in his hand and understood. Yeah. It's like, it says my favorite murder. It's got our logo and then it has like a quote in the back. I think all got different quotes. It's beautiful. The coolest gift. So me. So when he finally saw it, he was thrilled. And then he mounted it in the, in the foyer. Like it's a sword on the wall. It's, it's our sword. But so this, they're standing in our talking about the other pictures. And then the guy goes, Oh, what's this? Did you get, like, did you buy this bat or whatever? And he goes, no,

that's my daughter's podcast. They gave it to her as a present. And he looks over and goes, no, my favorite. Oh, listen to that show. And they shut your mouth. Yes. We got the guy putting in the floors is a fan. Oh my God. And he thought that I grew up in Sacramento. So he didn't, he's from Petaluma too. He's known our family, but I think he assumed I was a cousin or maybe just like, I don't know, or just not related at all. So he, he was, his mind was blown. And so when I sent my dad the home gym art, he goes, Oh, I got a, I got to show the floor guy. He's going to freak out. Like now he's my dad's getting into the whole, the whole culture of it. Anyway, love it. All of that is to say the book I'm reading right now.

It's called Furious Hours, Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee. Oh, I have that in my to read list. Yes. It's really good. Okay. I think there might be a copy at the office for you where, you know, we're COVID-19 lips. We're COVID-19 moved into when we got out. A Clorexit. Yeah, you get it. Do some Lysol wipes first for Georgia. But it's, the author is Casey Sepp CEP. And it's so, you know, Harper Lee wrote To Kill a Mockingbird. And then she helped Trima Capote write in cold blood and research it and stuff. And then this was basically, it's about how she came back to her home estate and maybe even hometown, because I'm on chapter two, to cover this trial that's unbelievable, this, this criminal trial.

And it's so well written. There's, it's so fascinating. I love reading this book. Obviously nonfiction, right? Which is fun. That's correct. Historical nonfiction nonfiction. Okay. But also historical. I mean, it's the 70s. So long ago. Okay. That's perfect. Because I'm reading, I'm reading like a fiction mystery thriller book. So like, yeah, you get a choice. Yeah. But mine's also like murdery and like a who done it E thing. And it's, it's by this woman who's written like 20 mystery thriller, like those books that like, we love to read on the beach on vacation. Hell yeah. By Karen Slaughter. But it's I am Karen Slaughter. And it's called Pretty Girls. And I can't, I'm listening to it on an audiobook. I can't stop fucking listening to it.

And it's got like, you know, sister themes, and it's got like strong female lead, like it's, and it's about them solving a maybe a murder. And like, what do we do when our sister got lost? And like, it's really good. I can't stop listening. So I don't know how it ends, but I'm into it. But we're in it. Yeah. All right. So if you want to do this with us, we're going to put, we're going to put together some kind of followable book club process. Good idea. Meet us back here in a week. Let's see if we had any progress on that. Let's see if we remember to ever talk about this again. Come on, it'll be fun. Oh, I'd like to thank everyone. Thank I want to do a thank you corner. Everyone who said when I was talking about the bird that wouldn't stop tweeting

by my window all night to put owl, owl noises and hawk noises, and it would get scared and run away or whatever. It didn't work, but thank you. But it has gone away. And I think maybe that it was mating. And so now we're going to have a probably a bird's nest by our window instead. And are you going to take your Louisville slugger and knock it out of the tree? What? Oh my God. Can you imagine? You take it down off the wall where you mounted it yourself. Oh, the internet, the ire of the internet. Oh, cancel. That's cancel. It is actually, you know, it's funny. I went to get the mail today, which I keep forgetting. That's a thing I can do like one more thing, a little task. And it's fun. I walked out to get the mail. There was a bird's

nest on the ground next to the mailbox. Oh, no. It fell out of the tree, I think. It was empty. There was nothing sad in it or whatever. It was just like, well, a lot of hard work. Okay. That's beautiful. Don't touch it. Don't touch it. No, I did not. Okay, good. Yeah, I went down, I sniffed it and I got real close to it, to the mites in it. Did a little rail of it to see if it was rubbed some on my teeth to see if it was coked. Just to get a little jolt. Oh, I wanted to say this isn't really a correction, but it's more of a, I mentioned my friend because you were telling said Nancy's story. We don't know the stories that we're going to tell each other. So I was talking about my friend Luke and I did a weird brain fart on his last name,

which is awful because we worked together for five years. He's one of my favorite people on the planet and I just was like, couldn't do it. And then the next day he texted me of like, oh my God, I'm so honored because he listens. And so I just want to give the full credit to Luke Womack, who is the most hilarious man, one of the most fun people I've ever worked with in my life, such a comic genius, whoops, in the past, in my past, a comic genius. He actually sent me a text that said after we likes it, you know, I was like, I'm so, I miss you and I haven't seen you in so long. And then he wrote, Oh, and by the way, COVID-19 sashay away. That was the last text. He's a genius. I love you, Luke. Thank you for listening and, you know, being, being you and

for loving, passionately loving Vivian Westwood so much. Yeah. He really is her number one fan. You know what I've been watching to stave away the depression because like, you just watch depressing shit, which you do every day in normal life, but now it's like you're hunkered down. So like, yeah, you need, yeah, you need to get away. I've just been watching Parks and Rec over again. And it's so joyous. You know, who loves that show is Nora. She is. Oh, yes. Big time. How old is she? 12 now? She's 13 now. Oh my God. I know. That's adorable. It's so good. It's just like so good. Lighthearted and fun. And it's been, it's been, Vince and I have just been like putting it on instead of whatever. Yes. That's a perfect. Also, I have to say, well, this will be

Nora's recommendation list because she knows every word to every episode. But if you're looking for that kind of like laugh out loud, get you through it, modern family, you know, they just wrapped like their 13th season. You have a vast world to dive into. If you've never gotten into modern family, I swear to God, the joke writing is superb. It's tight. It's so tight. It's hilarious. It's just so good. Yeah, I love that. Should we do a quick exactly right corner? Exactly right. So I'm going to do, I'm going to feature this week. This podcast will kill you, which is a great podcast. They're celebrating their 50th episode this week by covering the history of antibiotics, which is fucking fascinating. I can't wait to listen to it.

That's just, it's going to be rad. So good. Congratulations on your 50th episode. Yeah. Ladies. Ladies. Ladies. And also this week, and I said no gifts, which I believe comes out today also. Bridger has our game night friend from the sexy unique podcast, Kerry O'Donnell, hilarious writer, hilarious man. Steven said he enjoyed recording it, that it all went great. So definitely check in if you're a sexy unique podcast fan or if you just heard those Kerry O'Donnell stories and you need to get more Bridger and Kerry together are supremely hilarious. I love it. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, HelloFresh has you covered. HelloFresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on

track and on budget in the new year. HelloFresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy HelloFresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be my month for HelloFresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much. I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and HelloFresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to

20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton

serial killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Is that it all? I think that's all I have. Is that it? I think it is. Looks like it. I guess who's first this week? Me. Right? That's right. Oh okay good. If I just did it, I just didn't answer. All right okay. You know when you get one that like you're excited to tell so you're nervous about it because you want to get everything fucking right? This is one of those and this one might be

as strange as that Galapagos affair one I did a while back. It's got twists and turns. It's a fucking story and you might know a little bit about it but so this is the disappearance of Madeleine Murray O'Hare, the most hated woman in America. That's right. This story is amazing and she's amazing. So I got info from The Austin Chronicle, an article by Robert Bryce. New York Times. There's an article on Medium by Delaney R. Bartlett. Washington Post by Paul Duggan. There's so many good articles about this out there. This is Texas Monthly article and there's an episode of this really great show Vanity Fair Confidential that I watched. That's about her. Oh so I started watching that show because it's it's on the ID. No I think you can get the like

the ID channel. ID channel like app and watch all of them. It's I mean I think we've talked about this before. Vanity Fair Confidential if you are into true crime even if it's a story you've heard a thousand times their version of it is unbelievably. And you don't like corny reenactments. You want to hear from multiple sources. It's like journalism. Yeah because these are Vanity Fair writers. This is like this is the honor society of journalism. Right and then they interview like the local journalist. It's it's a good show. It's so good. So I watched that. There's also a show Netflix show made for Netflix in 2617 called The Most Hated Woman America in America that's like based on it but there's some things but I have the who plays who just in case

you need it. Okay great. So can I do a guess? No. Starting Kathy Bates. It would have been great but like no. Okay sorry. Well let's get because she should. Okay so Madeline her name is Madeline Murray O'Hare. Madeline was born on April 13th 1919 in Pittsburgh. She's baptized and raised as a Presbyterian in an upper middle class family until the 1929 stock market crash and her family like fucking lost everything. In her 20s she enlists in for World War II and serves as a cryptographer in the woman's army corps and when she's stationed in Italy she meets this dude and has an affair with him. His name is William Murray Jr. and he's a married officer. Oh yeah and she gets pregnant with his baby but he's a staunch Catholic so he refuses to leave his wife because

divorce isn't allowed. So maybe that's why she's cheating is also not allowed. Right. It's weird because you're breaking some rules. I don't know how it works that way. So he refuses to marry her. She takes his last name anyways so she becomes that's where she becomes Madeline Murray and when she comes back to the U.S. she gets birthed to a son and names him William and so his name his name is Bill. So it's his name is Bill Murray. Oh essentially. Went on to be hilarious now. So back home so maybe that's so she okay maybe maybe the Catholic part is what made her become an atheist maybe it just she already was. Yeah she's like fuck this shit. So back home Madeline gets a law degree from the South Texas College of Law and she moves with her son Bill Murray to

Baltimore and then on November 16th in 1954 she has a second son named John Garth Murray fathered by an ex-boyfriend so she has two kids. So one morning in 1960 as the tale goes she's taking Bill to junior high Bill Murray junior high to enrolling classes in Baltimore and she hears the students reciting the Lord's Prayer at the start of the class and she's like I don't want my son doing that he's he's not you know religious and they but they refuse to excuse him from saying the Lord's Prayer. So in a radical move she takes Baltimore school board to the Supreme Court. Yeah. To fuck and talk about the church and state separation. Yeah so you mean what our country was founded on. Right separation of church and state. So pretty important. And this is a

time though it's the 1960s when most I think most Americans considered themselves religious in some way there was a lot there was this moral majority there was just you know how you do things and religion especially Catholic seems like Christian religions obviously Christian religions yeah Christian religions were huge and so because I that's I mean that's the thing that they my mom used to bring up she's like these people that fight for prayer in schools right they're never talking about anything from the Torah no no they're never talking about anything Muslim no they when they think of prayer it's only the Christian point of view that's right so myopic and so anyway sorry that's exactly no I want I need this in here I want it and atheism itself

is looked down upon almost like in the same way satanism was where it's just like atheism who believes in not any of that of course people who are religious take it as you believe in the opposite of what I believe in which isn't that but you know they're mad and they think they're right so but still even though it's like that in America in a historic ruling the Supreme Court sides with her and there was a couple other lawsuits at the same time and banned school prayer in 1963 how fucking literally literally radical she's a fucking radical she's a true radical not really thinking of her junior high age son though and how difficult it would be to have a mom that's doing stuff like that and she's doing it for him but in the photos from back then he just looks so

unhappy and miserable and so so she's not the only plaintiff in the ruling but she is the loudest voice and becomes like the face of it and a kind of a celebrity of it and so Madeline who's played by Melissa Leo do you know who that is so she like they age her and when she becomes the older version of her it looks exactly like her it's just this white hair like she looks like a grandma librarian and cute and everything but then you talk to her and you know those people that you talk to and you just you say something normal to them and they immediately you don't know who they are they're checking you out of the library and then they're mad at you immediately because you and you're just like why I don't I didn't I don't you know what I mean yes it's

raised by those yes nuns nuns those are my people well it's also that thing it's it's just ironic because yeah that thing of like you know the whole thing of like you don't want prayer in school you don't want people shoving stuff down you know your kid's throat or dictating anything but a lot of times those personalities and the people that fight for stuff like that are the people who shove stuff down other people's throat exactly so she was loud and brash right back at the people who were loud and brash at her about religion and she's combative she's outspoken she's fucking angry she drinks beer she curses like a sailor love it all she says I'm a militant feminist she fights for abortion rights she's just like out there and loud about it there's a reporter named

Valerie Williams who said quote I have never encountered a more bitter more distasteful person than Madeline Murray O'Hare she was extremely foul mouthed to the point that even though we were doing an interview about something that she wanted us to do a story on we had to stop the interview in the middle because she was cursing so much which in my whole fucking cuntie heart appreciate as someone who said the word cunt on at the grand on the grand old opera stage I appreciate that I mean and also you know to to claim that you're a militant feminist yeah in the late 60s early 70s yeah was it was insane I mean like that's you know this has only been cool in the last five years yeah totally it's it very edgy I mean all of it it's also in my opinion a

lot of times this boils down to being a very intelligent woman in modern society yes it's a difficult thing to be the kind of person that's smart enough to be a card did you say she was a cartographer in the women's army yes so this is a very cryptographer cryptographer cryptographer oh she's doing code breaking yeah and she goes to law school she's a smart cookie you know she's a smart cookie that's tired of of dumb people ruining shit and the thing about her being smart is she knows that the loudest voice gets heard because the fucking loudest voice in the evangelical christians whatever is fucking yelling at the pulpit too and they're getting a ton of what's what's his face jerry fallow jerry fallow well right so yeah yeah she got it you got a fight

fire with fire but right it's the whole thing of women aren't supposed to be that way yeah men aren't supposed to do stuff like that when they're not supposed to swear drink beer right and you're on the other side so they're pissed and so she appears on the debut episode of phil donahue he was like that's our first episode we need her he's a genius yes also i there's no way his wife marlo thomas didn't have something to do with that because she was also a militant feminist nice but she was that girl so she was like the prettiest version of that she was like a glorious titanium type like let me make this palatable for you fucking patriarchy assholes so she appears on phil donahue's first show to publicly discuss her atheist views the audience turns against her as

does the public yep and in a 1964 article on life magazine she's dubbed the most hated woman in america excuse me leave that in which she's proud of she's like hell yeah and the proud of that fucking title so madeline goes on the news circuit and she criticizes and ridicules religion and religious people i mean she's fucking laughing in their faces and she laughed at the entire concept of god she riles them up and of course then gets more press for it and because of that she's harassed she receives tons of death threats against her and her family um she says like their cat got killed and her she got mailed with feces in it and her home was stoned like you know she becomes literally the most hated woman in america so in the late 60s madeline takes all her infamy

and attention and founds the american atheists organization um the aim of the organization is to quote defend the civil rights of non-believers work for the separation of church and state and address issues of first amendment public policy so after setting up the headquarters in austin where she lives now she marries again and becomes that's why she's madeline murray oh hair her husbands are footnotes in this in her story which i appreciate but she found a man yeah that's true sprain everything just kidding just kidding there's someone people out there going yeah how would you say that there's someone for everyone madeline becomes famous she has an atheist radio program television show called american atheist forum and it's on more than 140 cable channels

so she's fucking famous and so for the next few decades madeline devotes her life to campaign against the church's power she continues to file suits challenging religious displays and rituals including so one of the things she does is trying to get in god we trust removed from dollar bills which is like yeah but it's government i mean and she tries to get the phrase under god out of the pledge of allegiance uh she fights tax exempt status for the catholic and Mormon churches that was right yeah and then there's some shit about the moon landing and how he one of the moon one of the astronauts was going to take communion on the moon and and missionaries wanted to go to the moon in case there were other light for life forms so they can convert them it's just now

they're fucking with her yeah that's crazy it's absurd and there's a clip of her just laughing about it it's it's absurd so and she's placed on jagger hoover's list of dangerous citizens however and maybe because of this atheists all around the world start to fucking send her and her organization money to fight against you know to fight her fights so at the peak of the american atheists uh you know height of their power it's estimated that natalin controls up to 15 million in donated assets oh my god and one of those fans is none other than larry flint who is the owner of hustler oh yeah he tries to sign over his 300 million dollar empire to her in case he dies but his brother's like this is not fucking happening but he's like a fan and she writes for hustler and

playboy and you know throughout the years wow and throughout the 70s and into the what becomes a super religious reagan era of the 80s she goes to court many times she battles religious symbolism and the official domain she fights for legal legalization of abortion um but in the 80s more and more people are going to church and becoming right wing you know the satanic panic didn't happen in a bubble it's because yeah everyone it's the same kind of fucking gasoline that lit this fire well and it's that cultural pendulum that always swings right like this you know the whatever they called the social revolution or whatever it's correctly called yeah of the late 60s and into the 70s then there was that malaise and that member like you know they you know what

i forgot to mention this when i was doing the kent state story but those were like so many of those hippies and people and college and college students who thought they finally had a voice and were finally going to change the world it didn't work and they became and my dad talked about this too they become disillusioned and stopped giving a shit and they're like i might as well become a fucking capitalist yep and that's what happened in the late 70s and 80s yeah a lot of those people in the the woodstock documentary is amazing because there's a guy that like was at woodstock doing the whole thing and i think this is how they got the mad men final episode in the in the woodstock documentary he talks about this insane weekend that he has and then he went back to his

job his advertising job and wrote flop flop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is totally mad men final one right and and he was like basically one of the biggest ad people after that but he was like he had the whole realization at woodstock of like this great idea and then it was like yeah it's the pendulum swings and it's like we tried that it's scary it didn't we i didn't get what i needed out of it no now we now we go this way and ronald wagan says you know let's all pray and trickle down economics right and yeah so the american atheist organization they still have a membership in the high five figures but by 1990 they're kind of dwindling all the chapters around the country are gone and the organization is kind of on the like low end

of the pendulum and they have tax problems it seems like maybe they're laundering some money that's a that's me always yeah and legal fights and you know that they're doing drain the organization because they have to hire lawyers to fight these fights and madeline starts considering leaving for new zealand she's like fuck this shit i can't she can't fucking leave the house she's been like harassed and you know attacked so on august 27 of 1995 when a typewritten note is attached to the locked office doors at the headquarters of the american atheists in austin saying that madeline who is 76 her son her younger son garth who's 40 and madeline's granddaughter who's 30 who's actually bill mary's daughter but she is you know they're all like a really close

little family the three of them she they that says they'd been called out of town on an emergency don't know how long will they'll be gone don't worry about it and so it seemed it didn't seem like totally out of the ordinary that they had like skipped town but members of the atheist organization they searched the family home there's no evidence of violence or a struggle but it does seem like they left in a hurry because it's like the thing of half eaten food on the table like they were in the middle of a meal kind of a story she throws down her meat loaf and goes we gotta go to new zealand right now all right come on you know how it is madeline's diabetes medication are still there their passports are still there and they left their dogs behind like untaken care of which

isn't like them at all and atheists take care of their dogs everyone knows that um it's all they have that's right dog is their co-pilot god good one um bumper sticker comedy yeah but a few days later so they're like this is weird we don't know what's going on they try to get in touch with all of them but finally garth the son does answer his cell phone when they call and he's like don't worry about it everything's fine but he's really vague about their whereabouts and garth and the granddaughter robin answer the cell phone occasionally the next couple weeks give strange vague answers and the last time anyone talks to them on september 28th robin the granddaughter is described as being distraught and after that no one ever hears from them again um so of course a bunch of people are like they

fucking skip town and living in new zealand living it up on all the money they laundered and some people are like well maybe the fucking people they angered finally you know killed them it's like who the fuck knows and it takes a year for madeline's estranged son bill murray who's now he fucking cut ties with the family to finally report her missing to the austin police but since there's no evidence of foul play the police don't follow up on the report and also remember this is texas which is probably one of those religious places ever and so they don't give a shit about this woman as well in the 90s you know yeah so a year after the murray oh hair disappearance a reporter from san antonio express news john mccormick now this guy's our fucking hero of the story don't

you love it when the journalists are the fucking people who solve the problems john mccormick happens a lot it does john mccormick is assigned to write an anniversary story on the disappearance of the three of them and he just assumes that they fled the country and didn't want to be found so he starts to dig into the story he speaks with x members of the atheist organization and one of those members is a man named david waters who's played by josh lucas oh yeah okay is he a bad guy josh lucas always turns out to be a douchebag yes okay okay um just saying what is he been in oh at tons of stuff well he was in like ford versus ferrari as the douchebag from ford you know but like he always is that guy where you're like or he's like the boyfriend that at first you think

is great and then he's like not like he's being typecast and pigeonholed when he's he is because he's good at it because he's good at it so this guy david waters insists feverently that the family left town he's like i think that they fucking stole a bunch of money and here i have like letters and shit to prove it and he gives it to any reporter that'll listen to him he's on several news shows he's on america's most wanted talking about the disappearance talks to any fucking reporter about it so let's leave him over there after publishing his story john mccormick gets it so he puts the story in the paper being like i don't really know what happened to them this is odd he can't figure anything out he puts the story up then he gets a call from a

private investigator who specializes in finding missing persons which sounds like the best fucking job ever yeah for names tim young and he had read the article and was like i don't i don't care what happens i need to be part of this like this is fascinating so the two of them mccormick and fucking young for about 19 months they chase leads they examine phone records and credit card bills and they're able to place madeline and her son and granddaughter in the san antonio area during the month after they disappeared and yeah so in san antonio the the three of them had maxed out their credit cards with cash advances and they find that six hundred thousand dollars had been withdrawn from the organization's account by garth so after september 28th there's no more

activity on the cell phones or any other credit cards or accounts which just supports the authority the authority's theory that the family was fleeing the country right they're like getting cash in later day um but it's just not adding up for mccormick and young they just like aren't they're not it's not coming together yeah so mccormick's leads dry up until mid 1998 when he gets a call from a man who had read his article as well and this dude is like okay so my brother is a small time con man his name is dammy fry he had gone missing around the same time that the mario hairs disappeared the three of them disappeared and he all he knew was that his brother was last known to be in san antonio in september of 1995 which was the time period doing some kind of job with a dude

who kept getting mentioned in these new i'm sorry who kept getting mentioned in these news articles named david waters aka yeah who and he was like my brother who went to see him had actually served prison time with him so then mccormick's like uh huh so remember david waters who we just talked about who worked for madeline what's his deal let's find out let's dig let's dig so he had been hired by madeline in 1993 as a typesetter for the atheist organization i don't know if she knew that he had been in prison when she hired him but she was very vocal about giving people serving their time and giving them second chances so she actually didn't give a shit which is what wasn't she vocal about sorry i'm gonna keep this opinion to myself it's about it's about how

darkly i like to toast my toast but i'm gonna i don't like to talk about that i'm just gonna be quiet i like bark oh so david waters he also was this charming hard-working smart dude so he was good at his job and eventually got promoted to office manager until the family discovers that he had stolen 54 thousand dollars from the atheists organization fund wow now i almost put this paper to the side don't do that tape it to the wall behind you so the family uh they they press charges on david waters he's only given probation in order to pay back the money and so madeline is fucking furious that he didn't get like you know he only got a slap on the wrist so in the organization's july 1995 newsletter she exposes david waters criminal background and says everything

that he had been in prison for and had ever done which is that he was in there for at 17 years old he had beat a man to death with a fence post oh my god so that's why he was in prison and when he was released he brutally assaulted his mother and urinated in her face afterwards oh my god so he was a monster and she put it in the fucking newsletter okay sorry we've been doing this podcast for four years i don't think we've ever heard that a detail like that i mean we've heard i know i wasn't sure if i was gonna put it in there but i want to just stress no it like gives a very clear picture of it's his mother his mother so this guy is not on the fucking level and he put it in the newsletter she put it in the and i must have been you know with all the money she

had 15 million dollars there must have been thousands and hundreds of thousands of fucking people who got this newsletter in their mailbox every week it was over by the horoscopes but still it was in there it was in there the atheist horoscope you're fine be nice don't be a dick you're the same as everybody else we all have many we can we all contain multitude yeah there's no heaven be nice now the end um and he and he had stolen 54 thousand dollars from them so he's like you know he's a bad guy and um shortly after so that was printed in july 1995 and remember they went missing in august 1995 september is when the last people last heard from them right do you think the line about him paying in his own mother's face was in the newsletter i think it was and i tried

to find the newsletter i couldn't find it but i think that was specifically in the newsletter timing up it's making me nervous i know this happened 30 years ago yeah jesus yeah right that's fucking madeline for you it's called i don't give a fuck but the madeline mario hair story now yeah it's called come at me bro yeah the madeline mario hair story come at me bro because i put it in the newsletter yo it's too late it's in the newsletter too late um so macormick and young remember john macormick our um newspaper writer and our um our i'm gonna picture him really beautiful let's he looks like paul holes in my mind uh private detective they're they're like oh shit and they're like let's do some fucking digging like now we know what's we knew something

was going on so they find the phone records for this guy's brother fry and david waters and they are able to tie them together on the same time and uh you know that they're all in san antonio around that time and there's also another third fucking accomplice his name is uh gary car and he was also an excel mate of david waters and he was a serial rapist and kidnapper jeez so it's the three of them are at the same time and one of them had worked for madeline and they all had copies of that newsletter in the back pocket of their lead gene they had put it in a baseball bat uh case and put it on their wall for some time in the future when they might need it so they'd all been in san antonio during this time in question and so macormick and young are like let's bring

this to the austin pd right like we have like it fucking hell yeah like those little red threads with the push buttons that go all the way over to the you know the carry put up in a homeland yeah the homeland map or the true detective style you know it's like the fucking classic every they all add it up and they were like what's up austin pd here you go and austin pd was like we don't give a fuck there's no dust there's nobody so there's nothing we can do about it goodbye so they're like she was not hot and she swore so fuck her right so whatever they move on and finally by sheer fucking godly maybe coincidence it was the lord working okay so by sheer coincidence macormack sees a story in a dallas newspaper about how three years earlier in 1995 a headless

handless corpse had been found nearby in the trinity river and he contacts the dallas police with information and he's like i think i know who this is and with dna testing in early 1999 it's confirmed that the corpse is danie fry the brother that the guy had called about his brother who was one of david waters accomplices whoa yeah not a good sign for everybody else no involved no so macormack writes an article about the whole thing finally gets the attention of not just the police but the fbi and then they find out that the irs special in our an irs special agent edmund martin had been looking into this case since 1997 because he was like this is fucking money laundering if nothing else yeah because they had already evaded taxes and shit and

they owed a bunch of money to the irs so he'd have been looking into it so you now you get to fold in so there's the intrepid beautiful reporter there's the intrepid beautiful detective uh-huh private investigator yeah private investigator paul hole style uh-huh and now there's a nerd from the irs coming in right just to fill out that rag tag team so finally on march 24th 1999 seven weeks after macormack's story is published the agents from the irs the fbi and the dallas county sheriff's office raid the apartments of the of the two surviving you know accomplices yes car and waters and then david waters run down shitty ass apartment and they're like why does he have a shitty apartment if he stole 600 000 from these people they find 119 rounds of

ammunition and it's a parole violation because he's on parole for stealing the money from before great that's good news that's good news so he david uh waters is arrested gary car is also arrested for similar parole violations and waters is sentenced to eight years on the weapons charged but 60 years for violating the terms of his parole you would have zero yes 16 6d 60 wow and he was like in his 50s by then so you would have hoped that he got 60 years for murdering a person with a fence post but no it's for violating it was a different time yeah yeah okay and then i wrote okay but what does this have to do with murder georgia i was like you're off track at this point there's lots of murder so far that's true there's a headless that's handless corpse in a river right

that's murder most likely people want so worse murder so here's what happens knowing that he's going to prison for the rest of his life that's on his parole violations and not he doesn't want to be in a texas state prison anymore he wants that sweet sweet fucking federal cushy prison yeah yeah we're there's all the tennis lessons and stuff exactly easy in 2001 he's like all right i'll confess to everything if you put me in a federal prison and he does it and he fucking begins telling the story of the kidnapping and murder of madeline her son garth and her granddaughter robin oh so in august 27th 1995 he says um the three convicts waters car and fry all armed with handguns they use a delivery man ruse they surprise madeline garth and robin at the athiates headquarters

kidnap them take them to a motel in san antonio demand the contents of their bank account which is the 600 000 which is in new zealand so maybe that money laundering is really true uh-huh but because and they're like we'll let you go unharmed once we have the money but because it's in fucking new zealand it turns out that it's going to take a long time to get to the us 30 fucking days so in this like it's an apartment motel what are those long-term living apartments called yeah i think it's like long long term extended stay extended stay it's an extended stay place they're all they end up staying there for 30 days together they play cards they watch tv they get fucking takeout and they kind of like become friends and begin to trust each other so the money

is on its way gets it gets stuck in a bank in new jersey and the son garth and david waters actually get on a plane and fly there together so garth can get it out and he trusts that he's not going to get killed so much that he doesn't alert anyone to what's going on whoa yeah like he believes them that they're not going to kill him and his family his his mom and niece so not even oh i know wow okay and you know what maybe they weren't going to because according to the story and who knows if it's true when they get back from new jersey david waters goes in and learns that car who was a rapist remember yeah had raped and murdered young robin the granddaughter no that's according to the story and so garth and madeline don't know about that and they finally

get the 600 uh thousand dollars and they trade it all for gold gold coins at the local jewelry store and once they have the money the three convicts attack garth and his sleep they put a leather belt around his neck and he's fucking six four and over 200 pounds and so he puts up this huge fight against these three men but eventually they put a bag over his head and he suffocates to death it's awful it's so it's these i mean it's just so fucking sad and heartbreaking and and greedy and mean and terrible and madeline dumb and dumb and madeline you'll get caught yeah madeline's killed in the same fucking way oh god it's really awful the three of them take the bodies back to austin and in a storage unit they dismember the bodies with a bow saw they put them each into 55 gallon

barrels and then they drive to remote area and bury the barrels and at some point maybe when they were burying the family uh david waters shoots fry at the back of the head killing him maybe he was a double crosser or something yeah and remember the headless body that's found it's his and they throw his head head and hands into the pit with the rest of them good god yeah so afterwards waters and cargo on a fucking spending spree they spend nearly 80 thousand dollars of that 600 thousand dollars um but the rest of it the 500 like almost 500 thousand dollars they put in a suitcase in a different storage unit okay and now fucking ironically and this does make me believe in a higher power three local teenage hoodlums are on a fucking spree how god works yes through

teenage hoodlums 100 yes god works in mysterious teenage hoodlums they fucking start breaking in to storage units yes they steal the fucking suitcase yes all the money that they the fucking three people were killed for they steal it they go on a crazy spending spree eventually they get caught as well but it's like you know can you imagine like david waters walking up to his fucking storage unit and that shit got stolen it was it's like fargo it's just this fucking it is it's a total fargo and it also is that thing of like all the work i mean it's very similar to fargo all the work to put in to stay with that family for a month yeah you have to live with the people you're eventually gonna murder like what how could you do it it's it's horrifying it's just shows

how there's just so many people who don't have a conscience that like yeah will do such things to people that they get to know and like you know play cards with and shit it's just for money just for fargo all of that for just a little bit of money that's right after his confession david waters leads the police to the remote ranch in campwood texas they find the shallow grave with three dismembered skeletons and the hands and skull with a bullet hole in them madeline is identified by the serial number on her artificial hip and later the others are all identified through dna gary kahr is given two life sentences without the possibility of parole for all of the crimes but they don't ever try them for the murder no one ever gets tried for murder and kidnapping

david waters dies of lung cancer on january 27th 2003 in federal prison and yeah no one's ever tried for the murders but in an ironic twist when they do go to court for these life sentences the swearing on a bible the uh in god part is taken out partly because of madeline's fight to get god out of that wow isn't that amazing yes so finally the murray oh eras are reburied in an unmarked grave to protect them from vandals by their son bill murray william murray he even though he's estranged and clearly doesn't like his mom he respects her wishes and allows no prayers or religious services at their funeral despite the fact that he is now an evangelical christian of course he is right because you can't make your children do what you

want them to do no no in fact he founded the religious freedom coalition which is the largest and most powerful christian right lobbying group in the nation it's like yeah people yeah it's just how it works um yeah here's a quote from madeline mario here she says i told my kids i just want three words on my tombstone if i have one woman atheist anarchist that's me and that is the mysterious disappearance and murder of madeline mario here unbelievable unbelievable story bananas is that it's really i mean it's that's amazing that you said that because it really is very parallel to fargo totally just a lot less funny but still just that insane and i mean look i love a louder obnoxious woman clearly i am one clearly i love to swear clearly i don't give a fuck but there is

that thing that i think is that i think i've learned more recently in my older age which is that that it is a much more peaceful life when you're not so obsessed with these ideas in your head of how you need it to be because it isn't true even if it's like yeah i i honestly personally believe that there needs to be a separation of church and state because when you don't separate church from the government then the church is used to sway people and to hold power over people where it should it doesn't belong right it should not be allowed right and it's also not considering everybody because everyone only thinks church as in catholic or christian church which doesn't represent america this is a country filled with all kinds of religions and backgrounds and atheists

and and you have to represent this country when you're talking about the the government the official representative of the country right but if you take your if you get so attached to your crusade that you start going in basically the same direction that you're accusing the people of being the oppressors then you the oppressed become the oppressors it's absolute power that corrupts absolutely it's the same thing every time yeah totally i didn't realize i had such a speech i mean i love to make a speech but i love it it's great i like i love the i love the concept of her yes but i wish she had aimed more for the middle because yeah you can't you can't just mimic the people you hate you can't be exactly the same as them and then go they're the ones that are

wrong well no one you're doing it too you know your side cheers for you and the other side yells their their version of that right back at you and their side cheers for them and no one never learns anything no one ever comes to an understanding no one says i get what you're saying but i don't agree with it it's i need to destroy you and yes and which is welcome to 2020 america exactly you can't move forward if that's what's happening right and i mean maybe not to be overly philosophical now but maybe that's the huge benefit of such an insane thing like this pandemic and something as awful as what this country is going through right now and the death that people are seeing that it's waking them up to this idea that this big concept of whatever side they're on is merely a concept

right and what they need to do is whoever lives next door to them no matter where that person lands in the political spectrum or the religious spectrum or the whatever make sure that person's okay yeah because it's your neighbor and you should give a shit about the people around you and you shouldn't be picking teams you should be trying to help like because you know sorry no no i'm just saying no that's like you know i'm kindergarten they they fucking benefit when we're fighting the fucking big government the fucking people who make the laws the people overlords the overlords benefit when we're fighting against each other this angrily and this loudly because then we're not paying attention to what they're doing to us which is fucking making the poor poor and fucking

taking you know money from all kinds of evil fucking people so they can benefit meanwhile you know we can't fucking pay rent because the entire government is shut down yeah and or they're just still considering whether or not they want to help people right yeah that was an amazing story you're right that had it all yeah unbelievable also it sucks too because just that what she was fighting for was important and what she wanted was basically just another version of equality right she wanted everyone to be represented instead of just the you know more or just the roman catholics or whoever she wanted everyone to be represented and she wanted it to be fair great job that was really good thank you yeah it was exciting and as you were introducing it

and saying you know those ones where you get really excited i was like yeah because that's mine this week really speaking of which but this is like kind of an update so it doesn't really belong in corrections corner and it's a huge bummer so and thank you to hannah on twitter at sincerely hannah for pointing this out it's so rough but she basically sent me all of us a tweet saying you didn't mention this part of the story that happened in 2003 and when i opened the article that she sent i was flabbergat i mean i was like my jaw dropped so basically she sent me an article that one of the uh policemen who was right there like the original team of rescuers for baby jessica sergeant andy glasscock in 2003 drugged and raped a 51 year old woman and they found child porn in

his possession ah so he's now in federal prison himself um for 20 years he's he's serving a concurrent sentence it's a complete disaster story wow and i basically jay and i both because jay you know does like first round research for me and he's like i'm so sorry i didn't see anything like this and i was like dude i read every article i mean i love this story i read every single article i saw nothing about this and we were talking about probably because it's he was used to be a hero yeah he's a cop it's and it's that kind of thing where no one wants to hear these stories after the fact totally so thank you hannah for sending that in it's it's a true bummer but i mean it is a part of the story that should be told yeah but now we go on to this is another survival

story and i'm very excited that jay jay found it and um suggested it because i was like oh that's one of my favorite ones of all time this is the survival story of julian copkey all right so okay um searching my memory banks it's you know you wouldn't i don't think you'd recognize it from the name but you will from this actual story so we used you know bbc.com all that's interesting.com vice wikipedia history.com but i watched there's a verner herzog made for tv movie documentary about this woman's experience um and it's called wings of hope and i watched it today it's amazing you can watch it's on youtube it's like an hour long and it literally has an adult julian copkey walking through how she got through this experience and lived through it and it's unbelievable and the

reason warner herzog made this documentary is because so she she basically survived a plane crash in the amazon and he was supposed to be on the plane no i did not know that i didn't either i didn't know any part of this so uh so he was basically down there he was but i think i get into it actually later on but i'll explain that it's a verner herzog it's so nuts and so it's amazing because this documentary basically you know i'll give i'll give you the information that i learned in the documentary and and also in those other articles but you can completely go watch it for yourself and watch her tell you firsthand amazing what happened okay so um so it's christmas eve 1971 and seventeen-year-old julian copkey and her mother maria are waiting to board a lanza flight

which is an airline that doesn't exist anymore for very good reason a lanza lanza flight 508 from lima peru to pukalpa peru okay so julian has just passed her final exams for high school graduated from high school um the night before at um forgive me for this pronunciation uh dutch shul lima alexander von humboldt that's the name of the high school easy um and it's in lima so both of julian's parents her mother maria and her father haunts willhelm are german biologists and they live and work at their ecological research station in pukalpa how incredible is their life right oh no literally she she got to grow up like they they lived in lima because both of the parents at first worked um for a museum there but then they got to like live their dream

and basically go we're gonna go out into the jungle and study the animals and all the living creatures that are out there incredible and so basically and here's the story so her father haunts willhelm he emigrated to peru after world war two he didn't even have a passport he was baroque he had no money so he's a young biologist and all he wanted to do was study like you know jungle life and animals in the jungle so he stows away on a freighter he hides in a cargo area with that's filled with salt and he basically gets to south america gets off the ship and then walks across the continent and gets himself to peru holy shit yeah essentially so and so her mother maria is also a biologist she had been in lima she was there on business but then also her

daughter was graduating from high school and um she actually wanted to fly back like on the 20th or the 21st but then julienne wanted to graduate with her with her classmates and she wanted to go to the prom which was right after so they end up um staying for all that and then um getting to the airport on christmas eve 1971 to fly out the plane is seven hours late and by the time julienne and maria board everyone like is angry they're anxious to get home for christmas yeah there's all these people waiting and there were supposed to be two flights there's 508 and then there was the flight that was supposed to leave afterwards so there was a bunch of people trying to get on 508 yeah because they didn't want to have to because they were so late at this point

they didn't want to get home christmas day but and and so um verner herzog tells a story in wings of hope where he says he tried to bribe the counterperson he gave them 20 dollars thinking they would get him on 508 so he was supposed to be on the other flight he's trying to get on 508 he tries to get on 508 and he doesn't get on yeah and so all when the people like when everyone gets to board all the people that are on the flight like cheer and they're like yeah yeah we did it and like basically like hooray we made it onto this flight oh even though weather conditions are turning bad the crew is under so much pressure to stick to this flight schedule and get people home for the holidays that they decide to to continue on and not cancel the flight so yeah

verner herzog was there he was supposed to be he's filming a movie called the wrath of god that's about spanish conquistadors trying to find el dorado the lost city of gold in the jungle and they show a clip in in wings of hope and it that jungle is so dense oh my god crazy it's like it looked like a complete nightmare so while all the stuff's happening with juliana the story you can just picture verner herzog is in the jungle like 30 miles away shooting his movie i just want to get on a plane i just okay so so they board the flight um juliana and maria take their seats in the 19th row for what should only be about an hour long flight just to like a little jumper to get to their hometown and in wings of hope they say julian says that her mom was sitting

in the middle she was at the window and then there was a very large man that has the aisle seat who immediately falls asleep so everything's smooth sailing for the first 25 minutes of the flight and um but julian can see that you know they can all see dark clouds outside that they've been like they've basically flown into a bunch of clouds and soon the plane is surrounded and then the turbulence starts and it's pretty bad then a thunderstorm breaks out and it gets worse and worse and it's a luggage um it starts to fall from the overhead bins very scary christmas gifts uh uh christmas cakes things things are just falling out yeah um the mother and daughter begin to hold hands they try to remain calm as around them they can hear uh fellow passengers panic some start

crying um 10 minutes later julian sees a very bright light hit the engine outside the window and she realizes the plane's just been struck by lightning no mm-hmm and in a calm voice maria says this is the end it's all over oh my god her mom says that to her her mom says it i mean okay so immediately the plane takes a nosedive cabin goes black everyone starts screaming the luggage and all these packages that have fallen out now are flying around the cabin and the sound of the failing engine is becoming this deafening roar yeah and and julian talks about it where that was like kind of like all she could hear it like took over everything and then suddenly it stops and she realizes she's outside of the plane oh my god free falling in in her seat in their row of

seats her like they're falling her seat got sucked out of the plane in midair and she's just the plane broke apart holy fuck so she in in wings of hope she says quote it wasn't that i had left the plane but that the plane had left me so she's she's still strapped to her seat and she falls two miles down to the jungle floor and all she can hear is the sound of the wind as the canopy rain of the rainforest is spinning toward her and she loses consciousness all right so now we're going to go into a little history julian coffee was born in lima peru to german parents so i told you a little bit about maria and hansville helm on october 10th 1954 she's their only child at the time maria and hansville helm both work for the museum of natural history in lima but in 1968

when julian's 14 they leave lima for the amazon rainforest city of puculpa in eastern peru it sits on the banks of a tributary of the amazon river and there um you know a little bit into the jungle they set up this research station basically julian lives there and is homeschooled there and the plan was that she was just going to finish high school like being homeschooled at um at their at her parents research station as she is homeschooled there for a year and a half it's of course any any child that's interested in animals and stuff like this it's dream life at she even has her own toucan so i mean life is great fruit loops everywhere um but then in 1970 the local school authorities find out that she's just out there being homeschooled

and they say sorry she has to go to normal high school to graduate and because she wants to go on to college so she can study zoology and become a biologist like her parents she does go back to doish schul lima alexander von humboldt for her finals which she passes so she wants to graduate go to the prom whatever her mom hangs hangs out and is like that's fine i'll change the ticket but the only available flight after julian's graduation and prom is on christmas eve on the airline lanza they in this documentary wings of hope talks so much shit about this airline at one point it's like do you remember tower air no did you ever have to fly tower air no as a as a very broke comic in the 90s it was rough it was like a it was kind of like a cargo

plane there was like i remember sitting in a middle seat in the middle section and it was like 15 seats across oh yeah like crazy that everybody was passing things most people had their own food yeah i was so hungover that i just tried to sleep and the lady sitting next to me kept waking me up for every beverage and food offering where i was like i don't want ladies please i'm dying she'd be like do you want to drink do you want to do some tips anyway basically at one point in this documentary ronnie herzog tells julian that he did research on flight 508 and found out that the mechanics who worked on that plane had only ever worked on motorcycles before that oh no that's a very different machine it's a it's a different machine and also the

pilot speaking of which the pilots were not licensed to fly commercial oh no that's not how you run a business it was bad news coming and going and so of course julian's dad advises his wife against flying land so they had recently had two crashes like in the previous months but maria wanted julian to have like a normal high school experience and she's like it's worth it so she books the flight anyway oh dear so that's how they got there okay so when julian wakes up on the jungle floor it's christmas morning it's early morning she is underneath the row of seats that she was sitting in her mother is nowhere to be seen the large man on the aisle seat no she's alone there's some wreckage around her but because the

plane broke apart in the air she's separated from the bulk of the crash site so she just kind of calls out to her mother no one answers now she can barely see yeah so she wears glasses her glasses are gone she's really near sighted her left eye is swollen shut and her right eye is swollen so she can only open it like a sliver oh my god also and now we're gonna we're gonna go through a list of injuries so if you're squeamish you're gonna want to now listen to the podcast dr. deaf just kidding so squeamish alert her collarbone is broken and it's sticking out of the right side of her clavicle area which i think is a is a collarbone she can't feel it though okay she can't she can't feel it she just looks down and sees it and can't feel it she also has

a ruptured ligament in her knee can't feel that she's got she's in the documentary says she looked down and there was a cut on her calf that was so deep it wasn't bleeding oh my god and then it reminded her of a canyon because of how of how it was like kind of broken torn up at the top she also has a really bad cut on the upper back part of her right arm but she's alive miraculously so one of the theories of how it would be possible for her to survive falling two miles out of the sky strapped to a row of seats is that because of the severity of the thunderstorm there were really strong updrafts like there's you know it's like all about warm air and cold air or whatever so there were really strong updrafts that were pushing against her fall so slowing down slowing

down like the force of gravity or whatever or the gravitational pull maybe if it was it's right it was god it was the hand of the lord that kind of scooped her up but also she landed in a part of the forest the jungle forest where the trees were really close together and intertwined with these really thick vines like all the way through so they almost created like a little bit of a net as she fell so she basically I mean she was it's it's soften quote unquote her landing as they say it's like lost meets Alice in Wonderland yeah right now entirely so she looks out insanely like it's how could you not think I'm a miracle and my life is destiny after you survive something like this she's under like the seats are kind of folded over so the back of the seat is

like almost created like a little tent like that she's under it again can't can't really see she has a really bad concussion so when she tries to even begin to stand up she blacks out so she spends actually the first day just trying to get up and like and like she's you know for a while she crawls around on all fours because she's trying to find her mother and it's you know everything is a huge it really difficult for her yeah also she is wearing a sleeveless mini dress no it's 1970 yeah she's wearing a sleeveless mini dress she was wearing sandals she only has one on so she lost one of her sandals so she has and then she does our glasses so she's having to stick her one still shooed foot out ahead of her when she finally does is able to stand and walk

she has to stick her foot out to make sure she isn't tripped like over a rock or you know anything like that as she moves along so her first inner mind the first thing she needs to do is find her mom because she's convinced if she's alive her mom must be too her and her mom were super super close and she kind of in the documentary she said she just kind of couldn't imagine being without her so she called for her a bunch and tried to find her she's finding little bits of wreckage here and there as she's moving around the jungle she actually ends up finding a bag of candy and takes it with her and it's her only food for a long time she also there was at one of those christmas christmas cakes that fell out was also there too but then when she took bite of it she realized

it had just been sitting in mud so it had like absorbed a bunch of dirt and mud so then she threw it away and of course later on deeply regretted having done that so basically she's you know wanders for a while and then comes upon another row of seats there are three bodies still strapped into this row of seats but this row of seats didn't the fall was not broken in any way and it was driven three feet into the ground holy shit from the from the impact of the fall so she with her concussion and her kind of weird thinking and trying to find her mom she decides this is the first time she's ever seen a dead body obviously you know this is insanely traumatic but she gets this idea in her head of maybe this is one of these people is her mom and she can so she ends

up like getting a stick and taking a shoe off of one of the feet and she sees that the there's nail polish on the toenails and her mom never put nail polish on her toes so she knew it wasn't her mom and that's when she realized she was totally alone in the jungle that her mom was gone and that she had to get herself and she had to start thinking clearly and get herself out of there and she basically is like I I know now I have to press on alone basically she kind of wanders around for about four days you know trying to find a direction and and the the coolest thing was that the school authorities were very wrong about the benefit of her homeschooling right she had all this like survival skills just from just from having to live in the jungle naturally yeah

so she's not scared of like when I first read the story which was long ago and with the Terry Joe story of Terry Joe who was on the yacht and then yes went out out to sea as a little child yes I read a what's it called compilation books aren't called compilation of yeah compilation sounds right short stories it's a well it's a true stories of survival basically and this this story thank you Steven and thank god thank god thank god one of us went to college Steven do you want to be in our book club okay so this this story was in that book with Terry Joe's story too and I I remember just going I if I didn't have one shoe and I was in the jungle with bugs and snakes and spiders and all I would I would never stop screaming I would just lose my mind yeah but she loved she that's what

she loved and she knew what was poisonous and she knew what wasn't she knew how to survive just naturally so she none of that scared her and also she says whether it was the trauma of the experience or that it was like she said she just had this kind she'd never felt fear she also never felt hungry she just had this kind of like she was cut off and she was like I just got to get to civilization wow so so basically she knew that if you get lost in the jungle what you have to do is listen for water because if you can find a source of water you can follow the water how wherever whatever direction the water is running it runs to other water that's apparently that's how water works so what so she's as she wanders and wanders she finally realizes one day that she's been

listening to a sound that she didn't put together in her head that was the sound of running water and when she realized it she was like oh my god so she followed it she finds a natural spring with a little rivulet of water running out of it and she just walks along the rivulet and eventually that rivulet gets her to this little creek and you can literally watch her do it Warner Herzog went to the middle of the jungle found the plane wreckage found all these sites and you watch her re-walk her way away the jungle the plane wreckage is still there still there 30 years later because how are they going to get it out and what for right like they probably get the bodies out and then it's it's all grown over and they bring her back to it she agrees to go back

and do it like do it for the to show what she did wow so you watch her walk through you know like when you're I mean the first you know creek quote-unquote is probably a foot wide it's not you know but then you see it just gets bigger and bigger and deeper and and going downhill the whole thing and then that she basically gets the little creek and that joins her up to a bigger creek and she knows that once she gets to a larger body of water that actually is like moving and has a current if she follows that downstream that that will bring her to civilization that that's where you never go upstream just everybody right right all these things down on your hand go downstream so she also knows so as she's doing this she knows that walking in the water is less dangerous than

walking through dense forest oh yeah so and they they talk a little bit about she she talks about like people always talk about piranhas yeah she says this she's she's standing in the middle of a river a runny river and she's like a lot of people would be scared by this and I was like watching it like my heart is racing and she's like but like people are always scared of piranhas piranhas are harmless in in water with a current it's when it's still water that they like go crazy so she's like she knows but and she knows all the stuff she knows everything yeah she was the perfect 17 year old to be in a to survive a car crash I mean a plane crash in the forest yeah she says more than snakes tarantulas even piranhas the one thing to worry about in water like that

are manta rays they have poisonous snow yeah poisonous stingrays in the water they what no yeah so she basically when she finally gets to water that's like big enough for that's a concern she finds a big old stick and she walks and then just pokes the ground in front of her as she's walking with one shoe again oh my god so she's like get out of my she's like making sure she's not going to stand on any yes exactly and just and poke some all the up pokes like ground in front of her so she wades downstream and as you know so this a couple days have gone by now and she can hear the search planes oh but she's still in enough overgrowth that she can't she can't signal to them in any way right and also the way this plane went down because it broke up in the

air yeah there's no main crash site right literally the jungle just swallowed the plane and all the different plane parts and even if there was she's walked away from it at this point so like they don't know where she is no no they and they're assuming everyone's dead they can't see right they can't see anything it's just like this plane has disappeared wow so they're kind of assuming and they um it was one of the biggest search search and rescue efforts in airborne uh search and rescue efforts in the history of Peru um but you know after they search and search and search for like I think it was five days they give up because they can't even find where the plane went down so they just have no idea so as she's wading downstream she can hear them and then she hears

them go away so she gets really mad because she thinks either they found everybody else and saved them and just not her or just that they gave up on her she doesn't know but she again reminds herself you just have to keep pushing forward you just have to keep going so meanwhile everyone in Peru basically is waiting to hear any news of flight 508 that basically just disappeared in a storm including of course Hans Wilhelm who is facing the horrible reality that's both his wife and daughter have died in this plane crash yeah meanwhile back in the rainforest julian is alternating between wading in the shallower waters and then swimming in deeper parts of of the water and she's the days are really hot and humid and then it'll start raining like it rains several times

a day as she's trying to get out but the rain is cold so she said when it hit her it felt like needles oh my god and it happened a ton but the good part was then she had lots of drinking water so yeah she theorizes that that's why she wasn't so hungry is because she just constantly kept kind of kept herself full by just constantly drinking water right at night of course the air turns cold mosquitoes and bugs swarm her and like you know she tries to her her best to keep them away but they're everywhere and she at night to sleep she gets out of the of the creek or the river and she curls up on the riverbank gets her back to the bank and basically just tries to keep warm even though she's soaking wet and like anything can come get you any creature yeah yeah and and

there's creatures that you that are that have already gotten you right oh yeah oh yeah that's right wait what um get ready i'll tell you i don't know so just she has a watch on her wrist that was a gift from her grandmother so for the first four days she's using it to track time and track days passing but on the fourth day it stops so after that she just has to track it in her head but she knows that's important too just to know how many days have passed and it's the rainy season so there's not a lot of wild fruit that she can pick and eat she doesn't have any tools she can't hunt her fish she knows that there's lots of plants that are poisonous so she doesn't want to risk trying to eat something and making herself sick um she she eats the candy until the candy's gone

yeah but again she never she never felt hungry she said but she knew she was getting weaker um because she was just walking non-stop so on either the fifth or sixth day um she's not sure because the watch was broken this stream that she's been in now opens up to a bigger river and this is like now she knows that she's getting closer but at this point her wounds have started to fester and so it's harder for her to walk so on there's some days where she just floats down the river and she does see crocodiles and sometimes yeah and so that she'll be floating down the river and look and they'll be crocodiles they'll see her and get in and she said she was just apathetic she was just like well whatever and just kept floating and they never attacked her they never bit her

did anything oh yeah isn't that crazy she's like the stingrays are the only ones I have to worry about and she made it happen by pure chance that's fucking crazy yeah it really is so so here's the super disgusting trigger warning by day 10 the wound in her upper right arm oh dear yeah it's filled with maggots yes sorry look if you want to go on vacation in the jungle you have to hear this shit georgia I've never wanted to do well I'll do that it's it's so horrible that they're they're big she looks down and she sees it she knows it's bad because she knows because like it's kind of out of sight and then when she looks back can you imagine you're just like wow yeah that in the collarbone I think are the hardest parts for me so far so rough yeah um I mean for her too

it's really hard for me sitting the hardest is for you and we know that but she went through some stuff too I guess so she she's also smart enough to know that that's terrible because she could get blood poisoning and she could get her arm amputated if she does survive right so she knows like she has to find help and she has to like she has to keep up the pace on the 10th day she can barely stand um 10th fucking day on the 10th day 10 days which is so she's they've the search and rescue has been called off for almost a week for five days so she can barely stand so she's and she's still trying to make her way down the river so she goes and she has to rest so she goes and looks there's a riverbank she walks over to it she sits down she doesn't even know how long

she was there and she realizes she looks in front of her and realizes she's looking at a boat there's a boat in front of her she must have been delirious by then and she had a major concussion oh right a major concussion the entire time and yeah she's delirious from from starvation delirious from yeah yeah from maggots everything and the plane crash she was in the whole fucking thing yeah so she kind of like comes to realizing there's a chance she's made it because she's looking at a boat and she said she had to make sure she wasn't hallucinating so she had to go up and touch it to make sure it was real because it was so unbelievable it's really there she looks on the boat she looks around she doesn't see any

people she's considered stealing the boat but she doesn't want to be a thief so instead she spots a path that's coming up from the riverbank and through the jungle and so she says it takes her hours to climb up this riverbank and she said the riverbank was about nine feet high oh my god and she's so weak that it took her she just had to try and try and finally she crawled up this bank and she followed the path and it led her to a little hut with a palm leaf roof and she just gets inside and goes to sleep and so she says when she's in there she realizes you're starving to death you have to eat something and these frogs start coming around but she recognizes that they're called um they're called i think they're called poison arrow frogs and they're those frogs they're

poisonous and they're the ones that um that the native people use to put their juices from the frog's belly onto the arrow's tips so that when they shoot people they like hallucinate and go crazy and they're poisonous they die yes so she she knows that they're that poisonous and she still tries to eat one anyway because she's like she's on the verge yeah but they keep hopping away from her she said it was just they would come and hop near her and then she'd be like i'll just eat this and then they would hop away and she couldn't she couldn't catch any six so so the morning of january fourth this is 11 days since the crash she wakes up to the sound of voices outside this hut and in the documentary she says it's it it sounded like the voices of angels

oh so she comes out of the hut and she sees three men standing there she said they're all taken aback um she describes the moment like this quote when they saw me they were alarmed and stopped talking yeah yeah was it the maggots maggots just pouring out um she said they thought i was kind of water goddess a figure from a local legend who's a hybrid of a water dolphin which i would imagine is just a dolphin uh-huh um because because land dolphins land dolphins oh that's a hippo the skinless cats um skinless cats did you mean hairless cats i did mean hairless yeah oh no it's it's late okay the cats have hair no skin the the organs are right under the oh god guys stop it i'm trying to talk about maggots okay let's say that dolphins a local

legend it's a hybrid of a dolphin i think he met a river dolphin yeah yeah yeah and a blonde white skinned woman so this was actually a real and she's a blonde she's like a little german descent girl but she is of course lived in pru all her life she introduces herself to the men in spanish she finds out they're local lumberman and she says what happened so they bring her they gather her up and they bring her to the vet put her on the boat they they go um 11 hours in the boat to get her back to their village to just to any kind of yeah they get her there they but they in the meantime they put gasoline in her wounds to kill the maggots and to basically like get you know uh a little triage going yes exactly but with gasoline no and i'm sure she's like who cares

it's fine yeah i don't i can't feel anything so when the locals in their village and when the men bring her to the village the locals see her her eyes are so red in bloodshot that all the locals recoil in fear and they accuse the men of bringing a forest demon back to their village come she's like i haven't even thrown off yeah really it's like sorry you really look like a demon here's advising um they these men convince a local pilot to fly julian to the hospital in puculpa so in this again in this documentary i'm just talking you through this documentary it's so good she goes back and she meets one the other two men have since died because it's been like 30 years she goes and gets to meet one of her rescuers and say thank you to him it's lovely and also it's the

cutest thing we're not her dog's such a good filmmaker yeah because when he first like comes upon like the group of people where she's like you know it's coming to say hello there's all these little kids around of course right it's just like village life and the camera swings over to like these little kids and then like two of them just walk away immediately and there's this little girl who's probably like eight and she's so cute and she just stands there kind of smiling and the camera just is on her and then she then she just starts giggling and she can't stop giggling and it is so it's so cute it's just beautiful moments like that he's so good a day after her rescue on january 5th 1972 julian's father gets a call telling him his daughter has been found

alive and he goes to the hospital they're finally reunited and julian says that neither of them were able to speak they just held each other oh can you imagine no i mean he thought they were gone yeah and everything she had been through and it's like it's over and that collarbone still sticking out during the hug for the next few days haunts will him oh sorry so for the next few days haunts willhelm watches the news just in case his wife is found alive too and listen to this when julian recovers she joins in the search effort by leading the emergency responders back to the crash site to look for her mom what yeah she goes back in but on january 12th 1972 maria's body is found and there is evidence that suggests that she also may have survived the initial crash but she was too

injured to move or speak and she died out there oh my god yeah 91 people died in the crash of lanza flight 508 including all six crew members and 85 passengers julian was the 86th passenger was the lone survivor um and there's they start this documentary with this amazing kind of monument that they've built in in i believe it's in lima peru for all the people who died in flight 508 and some of the bodies are buried in this monument like when you go to see it and it shows a map of where it crashed and it shows a map of her trail out of the jungle wow and that monument is called wings of hope and that's why we're in her zog title his documentary that flight 508 was lanza's last flight before the entire company was shut down good just 11 days after the incident so

pretty much immediately their operating permit was revoked due to their quote intentional flight into hazardous weather conditions also the that they oh these aren't motorcycles oh good also 100 other things yes come on yes after the media blitz settles down julian returns to normal life she moves to germany and goes to the university of keel in 1980 and she studies biology and zoology and she actually earns a doctorate wow um yeah and she ends up marrying another biologist and they move back to peru she's researching bats he's researching wasps that's a match made in heaven he's in the documentary with her it's so cute it's so cute in 1998 she participates in a documentary about the crash called wings of hope directed by werner hard dog and in 2011 julian

writes a book about her experiences with the crash and her survival entitled when i fell from the sky just such a good title yeah when you did a book immediately you straight up straight up you full on fell from the sky yeah and that is the unbelievable survival story of 17 year old julian copkey the sole survivor of lanza flight 508 oh my god dude that's intense dude i love it the the will to survive that she had to have yeah to go that long yeah is incredible i think everyone has it in them i think everyone has it in them yeah i really do i do that's beautiful i do yeah you're right your faith in humanity is beautiful well but i think that's like it's lizard brain stuff where you just keep fighting like yeah at that point you'd have to that's true

it's like it's alone and until you can't walk anymore you might as well keep taking some steps go and that is our philosophy about life too it's like if you just have one sandal then walk with that foot first and make sure you don't step on a snake with your barefoot watch out for stingrays careful this stingrays will kill you that's right good job thank you should we do some fucking hurray let's do it okay you want to go first oh sure i'd love to i'd love to um this is from kasa decote on instagram okay my fucking hurray is well on our daily walk with masks on because it's the right thing to do and so people won't silently judge us like georgia it says that and karen uh-huh and we saw one of those heartwarming dog videos you see on social media but in real

life an elderly woman's dog i believe it was a border collie walked down her front path to pick up her mail from the mailman the dog took the mail walked back up the steps and delivered the mail to her it was amazing we usually come home from these walks disappointed in humanity in general and then it says all caps why are there so many packs of teenagers on skateboards with no masks do they not have parents that it was nice to see something so simple and kind love one another and be safe stefany and redondo beach nice stefany i won't judge you thank you okay this one is from lauren michelle it's lauren michelle my fucking hurray is that today on my brother's 36 birthday we found out that his brain tumor shrunk the past nine months have been life changing for my family

watching my brother go through brain surgery then chemo and radiation has been heart wrenching and incredibly emotional for all of us god yeah but if anything has but if anything it is made our our close family even closer about a month ago my brother donned his michael jordan jersey while ringing the bell after completing his treatment and today while wearing his chicago bull starter jersey from 1998 we received the news that his tumor had shrunk he's not completely out of the woods yet but things are looking up so fucking hurray for the best birthday gift my brother his twin oh one it was one brother's birthday and they got the new good news about the other brother i got it so fucking hurray for the best birthday gift my brother his twin

received this year fucking hurray for his amazingly supportive wife who i'm honored to have for a sister-in-law and fucking hurray for the jordan era chicago bulls who who have brought crazy luck to my family at this time ssdgm and hug your siblings lauren that's beautiful lauren that's amazing yes um this is from jess danielle and it's not a fucking hurray well it is later but it says fun fact i was named after baby jessica the story goes my older sister was three years old and after my family watched the story she kept saying they got baby jessica out of the well now we need to get baby jessica out of mom's tummy and then there's one of those emojis of uh you know uh thank god because my father originally wanted me to be named tranquillia wait tranquillinia tranquillinia

uh huh and then there's an emoji of a hand slap to the face but jessica stuck thanks to my sister who wouldn't stop calling me baby jessica after that uh fucking hurray for big sisters who pick better names than my parents do tranquillinia what's wrong with tranquillinia it's so soothing and relaxing it is uh okay this is front this is sent by um mfm 007 murderina okay dames bond since march 16th i have been at home with both kids 9 and 11 full time so we've been doing yeah really so we've been doing new activities to keep ourselves busy while still at home one of them is chalking up the driveway at first it was all of us being that the kids get bored easily they left the art activity and i fell deeper into the activity and then in parentheses better than doing laundry and dishes

now i am a chalk legend of the neighborhood i have created some easy ones uh i have created some easy ones at first but i have leveled up i have a lot of neighbors looking forward to the new pieces also i made a new friend while doing this she is a true muralist she's come over a couple of times and was extremely generous and made two art pieces i wish i could upload the photos she did a real it's just like i wish i could but i can't no but it's yeah she did a realistic vulture and realistic butterfly i have done a tree frog a sea turtle hatching from an egg and a funny shark bird that's right a bird with a shark's head i saw a meme of it and i couldn't resist good thing about this this art is every time it rains i get a new canvas thank you ladies for what y'all are doing

and take care we will be chalking it up even after this god damn pandemic is over yours Cheryl i love it so good do we also it's like you're forced into these things and it's like yeah that's awesome that you're doing chalk murals in your driveway yeah i bet it's like so stress relieving can you please do us a favor and do a um what is it a river dolphin please please do a water dolphin or a river dolphin whatever either one makes most sense to you um my last one is from jc nicole to ease my fucking array is that after four years of working full time and going to college full time i finally paid off my car i'm only 20 and i've learned responsibility the hard way i have to remind myself that even amongst the chaos going on now i am

still capable of accomplishing things every week you and Karen remind me that even though we're in a pandemic it's not a productivity contest that's fucking right i'm proud of myself and i'm proud of everyone who is making it through life right now hell yeah nice okay this one is uh from formaldehyde that's a good one so good my fucking array is that i didn't do shit i didn't leave my house for anything other than groceries i didn't let my kids flout the common sense rules that are in place for everyone's safety i stayed home ate the same boring ass food that we've been eating for eight goddamn weeks watched every episode of golden girls for the millionth time kicked my family's ass in settlers of katan and rummy cube oh i fucking love rummy cube so much

i forgot about that one yeah it's a good game survived the shit show that is e-learning for a first grader a sixth grader and a tenth grader oh honey mom and most importantly i didn't contribute to the spread of covet 19 stay sexy and stay the fuck at home for maldehyde you win across the board and we i know we want to say that stay at home is and be safe is for the people who can't stay at home for the essential workers who have to be at the grocery store who have to be you know the cops and the first responders and the hospital workers and all the people who cannot stay at home we working at domino's pizza totally they're the people who have to work at insta car right now because they need the fucking money so they have their families to live yes let's respect

those people and stay at home if we can exactly like please be like for maldehyde and stay home and don't do shit and play jen rummy the mother of three young kids can fucking do it and like make it interesting do it you can't anyone we can all do it we love you guys we hope we're helping during these crazy times and we we got your back and thank you guys for listening to us and letting us still do this insane thing that we get to do yes we're so all your support yeah and it's especially these days it's such a fun thing to look forward to it is it's great thank you all so much and stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye mimi do you want a cookie okay so this is pretty exciting apple tv plus's new crime drama is called defending jacob and it follows an

assistant da whose life is turned upside down uh when his son is accused of murder so the assistant da is played by chris evans and it also stars michelle dockery and jaden martell everyone is so good in it it's a limited series and they play a family whose fate hangs in the balance of the legal system right so apple asked us to partner with them to create this special content to give our listeners a chance to put themselves in the barber family's shoes that's right and we were lucky enough to sit down with the show screenwriter mark bomback as well as the director morten tilldom who's they're both so talented and we're gonna have a little deeper dive into defending jacob so enjoy okay we are very excited to be talking to screenwriter mark bomback and director

morten tilldom they have their new show on apple tv plus it's a crime drama called defending jacob congratulations you guys thanks for talking to us today our pleasure our pleasure thank you so much for having us iran and georgia it's so nice to meet you like i've been a murderer for like a while like i know really yeah in fact while working on the show because i live in new york i used to drive home on the weekends and very often your podcast would be the thing i listened to as i was driving home so oh my goodness so honor yeah thank you do you want to tell us a little bit about how you guys got involved in this project sure this is mark talking uh so i was sent the book that the show is based on really responded to it and so i dove right in and wrote a pilot script

and an outline of what i thought those first uh a few episodes could be and uh was talking with the producers and we were talking about who might be a good director to bring in and morten's name came up and i was overjoyed i thought bringing his Scandinavian sensibility to this and his artistry would be a great fit i love making stories which is all about character which are great i don't believe in like people are inherently good or inherently evil where all kind of existence is weird place in between was like where is our moral context what are we willing to do i think that's what makes this show so different is that it's not a typical who done it it's kind of it's got those little nuances where you know you think to yourself what would i do in that situation

not having kids i i'm like turn that tournament which of course wouldn't really happen so what do you guys think this sets us apart from the typical who done it is it the morality of it is it family it's very much about that parent child relationship and putting that to a stress test and you know oftentimes we live our lives with little fractures in our relationships whether it's with our parents or with our spouse and we can go a very long time that way and then something like a crime occurs and really puts it to the test and starts to rip it all apart well and that is interesting because we all like to think that we are good people and moral people and that we'd make the right decision and how you would start rationalizing what you will do

that's different than if it was a normal situation you know what i mean like suddenly it's just like yeah i can see hiding that i can see pretending you didn't know that i can see you know getting rid of evidence or whatever because it's your family member you guys got like an insanely stellar cast for this show you know chris evans michelle dockery jaden martel so it's captain america lady mary and the child hero from it like every every you know every person that walks on screen you're like whoa whoa we went into this not thinking like let's get the biggest name possible we want to who will be perfect for this who do we really would love that and i think we also wanted to to cast a little bit out of the box and uh then have to be chris evans

which we're now think after shooting with him like it couldn't be anybody else which is like it's which is so perfect in the part and michelle came on and and uh uh we both love michelle in in uh of course don't know but also godless which he which he has an american accent amazing really impressed us and jaden is just uncanny uh he actually auditioned for the part and uh when we saw it it was like it was so it just jumped out of it and it was obvious that he has to be checked up because he kind of has the hardest part he has to add a little layer on top of his performance because you're never really supposed to figure out what's actually going on inside of this this character and i think also he has to add that layer of being a teenager and

never fully answering your parents questions with anything more than a nod and he does that so well it's very fascinating to think about that part where i'm like am i judging him because i don't like his personality so i'm give attributing like yeah absolutely or you know or is that what's happened sometimes where it's these surface things that you're actually putting on somebody that could be completely innocent right that's the great thing about teenagers and suspects is that their behaviors are dubious like they're and so no matter what he says or does especially and jaden is just as martin was saying uncannily gifted at being enigmatic in a way that feels very plausible and very appropriate for his age and you know that's the subjective fear we're trying to instill in

the audience is that you're at the mercy of his performance in the same way his his parents are where you're trying to determine is this just normal taciturn teenage talk or is this feeling something yeah definitely i think one thing everyone wants to know is can you tell us one you know negative thing about chris evan so we're not so in love with him yeah there's got to be just one little you do almost look for a chink in the armor because he is really a great person inside and he's blessed with these bizarrely good looks and he's very humble about them so i it sounds totally like a cliche but i really can't think it's really hard well mark and morton thank you guys so much for talking to us today this has been so fun you have to follow

at apple tv on instagram and twitter to join the discussion about defending jacob each week they're gonna post a crucial question about that week's episode so you can find out what you and other viewers would actually do in those situations and watch defending jacob on apple tv plus every friday thanks guys thanks you guys you