My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 24 - Episode ...And Twenty Justice Four All

Episode Date: July 8, 2016

This week K&G discuss Karen's tragic hometown murder, Polly Klaas, as well as the truth behind Kitty Genovese's stabbing. Plus must-watch documentaries and all the banter you can handle.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hey, do you want to podcast? Hey, hi. We need to wait if start this and end this. That's like, that's clean, distinctive. What if it was like 70s newscast kind of like, yeah, that'd be good, right? Yeah, that's just in. Instead, it's just me laying down on the love seat. Guys, you leaning back on the couch. I leaned back on the couch like a kind of like an old drunk hobo leans on a park bench,

right? Steven, Steven had to put his hand over his mouth. It was that accurate. It's so true. He's like, I'm seeing, it's as if my hat is tipped forward. Yeah. And I'm leaning on this love seat, like Mrs. Roper. If Mrs. Roper went and got some scissors and cut her calf tan in half, because Georgia doesn't fuck around with full length anything. You're all about the leg. Yeah, that's true. I do show a lot of leg. Because it's, you know why? That's summer, Georgia in full effect. Thank you whoever made that. I did a kind of rude thing. I posted the picture summer Karen and full effect on my Twitter page. And then after I did it went,

oh, I probably should have found out who made that. Oh, right. I didn't have the name. Man, fucking credit gives me so much stress. I know. Like, I won't, it's so hard to make sure that everyone gets credit and you don't want them to hate you and stop making shit. That's right. And you don't want to be a the fat Jew about it. Which is a person who steals shit and makes a shit ton of money. That's his name. He calls himself the fat Jew, which is supposed to be funny in and of itself. Yeah. It's really just a description. So yeah, shout out. Maybe somebody will put it on the Facebook page of who did it.

Guess what's happening tomorrow? What? The shirts are going out. Oh my God. This has been, that's quite, that's quite a weight actually. People have been, for the, I know you've gotten complaints, but all told, that's, you know, people have been pretty patient. Oh, for sure. The amount of emails I've gotten are so much less than I thought that would be. And it's, I mean, I'm going to be so relieved when people get their shirts. It's fucking stressful. Yeah. I bet it is. Like I've been emailing. I mean, yeah. You've been really, you've been, Georgia, let me say this about Georgia. She looked at me. Hold on. You just find, just wait till you find out what I was about to say.

Okay. And then I just fucking railing you. She is such a fucking, she won't stop wearing very small house dresses. No, Georgia got a look in her eye one day during or after the podcast taping. And she was just like, we should have shirts. And then she delivered this baby like the obstetrician of T shirts that she is. I had nothing to do with it. I put my initials next to some stuff and checked some things off. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. You have a job that you go to every day. You have dogs, which everyone knows is very stressful. I have no day job. I mean, I work from time to time. You do stuff though. Yeah. I have extreme anxiety, which causes me to constantly do things. Yeah. Which is great. Mine causes me to constantly

not do things. That's interesting. Because you're like, I can't do this right. I'm not even, this is going to suck. I won't do it. Exactly. I freeze up. I have perfectionism. And then I'm, yeah, I just go fuck it. I've, I spent my life saying fuck it essentially. Wow. Because I'm, I don't have perfectionism. So I'm like, let's fucking try this and see what happens. And then we'll learn from our mistakes and we can quit it if it sucks. That's the way to be. Yeah. Like if you do everything like at a, at a, at a B plus, you know, and no one else does anything else because they think they're going to get a B. Then that rounds up to an A. Then I get a fucking A.

Hell yeah, girl. I like this. I have to rely on other people's perfection anxieties to just deliver mine. That's really smart. Did I tell you my grandma's, my grandma's saying bigger dummies than you. Yeah, that's right. You know, it's so good. It's so good and bad at the same time. My grandma's saying was be quiet now. Is she Romanian? No, that's Irish. She was a vampire or something. I'll be quiet now. She was a gypsy. I only saw her once. I love it. Um, yeah, just try it. And if it sucks, you can just walk away from it. Girl, I'm about it. I mean, you were right about this podcast. But oh, like let's walk away from it. No, no, like just try it. Why don't we try it?

Let's just do one and see how it goes. That's my whole motto. Yeah, let's do one and see how it goes. It's very smart. Yeah, but the t-shirts, I mean, it's been stressful. Yeah. Now everyone's making these awesome crafts, which by the way, I gave my fucking PO box on the Facebook. Is that a mistake? No, it's a PO box. I know, but man, what do you think someone's going to go stand by the PO box and wait for you? Yeah. No, that's the whole point of PO boxes is there's someone that works there and if someone's just start standing by a PO box, they're like, Hey, right. Hey, weirdo with the kitchen knife. Get the fuck out of here. I'm just, I don't know why. I'm just going to always go with Vince. So anyone who's thinking about beating me up,

going my big tall husband, who will probably do nothing. I love the idea. The PO box would make you this nervous. This is like, we're now we're opposites. He's again, this is where I'm brave, where I just be like, come at me, give it your best. I'm terrified. I know, but who cares? I mean, you could take a nice swing at somebody. What a stupid way to die though. Like what, I feel like if I heard that, like this girl who has a true crime podcast put her PO box up and got killed. What a fucking idiot. Why did she do that? That's what I would think. I wouldn't. The PO box is like the most vague. Like if it's a city, you don't even know if the person lives in that city. You just got the PO box. That's true. And also this is Los Angeles. There's so many

people here. Yeah. So like, I almost want to say millions. That sounds fucking right. I dare say. That sounds right. Okay. All right. And also no offense, but there's better PO boxes of sand extra. Everything was great up until you just said that. And no dummies than you. There's so many better dummies in this town. Oh, no. Thank you. Don't be sad. I meant that in the complimentary way. Is there one? No. But I mean, Justin Timberlake lives here somewhere. That's what I'm saying. Okay. That's what I mean. Don't kill Justin Timberlake, you guys. I was just going to say go kill him tonight. That's not okay. The people who kill are not influencable by these podcasts. We can't they're not going to be like with their murder

kid under the passenger seat and then be like, you know what girls? You show me the way. No one diabolically listens to a podcast. People only like at least medium joyfully listen to podcasts. No one's like now we're baiting people. People like I'm going to show her. There's no like Mr. Burns-esque podcast listeners sitting at his desk going like you know with his fingers and like he doesn't listen. Marge listens. Simpsons. This podcast always comes back to the Simpsons. Lisa totally is a fan. Lisa's on that Facebook page. NPR for sure. Oh, I saw can I recommend a Netflix series that I watched all of in one day? Always, always, always. Oh, all of this is from our new section. All of all of all of you. It's called Marcella or

Marcella. They pronounce it because they're British. So they'll do a fancy pronunciation that baffles me as I've already proven. It's with Anna Freel. It's super good. It's female homicide detective. It's all screwed up as the all the good ones are always screwed up. I watched the whole season, which I think was eight episodes, maybe more in a day. And it was so good. And there's a couple people on the Facebook page who have recommended it. What's it called? Marcella is how it's spelled. Where does she watch it? But I want to watch it. I haven't seen it yet. I totally you should watch it. I've never heard of it. It's really good. And it's like, I mean, do you like do you like those kinds of procedures like a Luther or a what what country of origin England? Okay. Yes.

And no, okay. It just depends. Sometimes I sometimes what do you need? What do you need? Oh, you know what I loved is the one I'm not going to remember the name the one with the woman. Oh, yes, that one. Was she dead? No, she was a police detective and she was incredible. Oh, Happy Valley. Yes. Yes. I loved Happy Valley. And then there was another one. And I was just like, I can't with this. I don't care. I just don't know. Maybe you need yours more character driven. Like Happy Valley is almost more about her family. Yeah, her trying to deal with just her shit. Yeah, I guess it was like there about her. I could legitimately see why she was fucked up and sad. Yes. And it wasn't like, just go get a fucking coffee and cheer up. Yes. Or like,

you don't have to talk like this. I didn't do those like dramatic bullshit things like talking in dramatic voices and words that no one would ever fucking say. Not that I could understand everything that was said on that show because there's some thick accents. But you watch the second season, right? I don't know if I finished it yet. Oh, it's the best. Okay. Sorry. Go on. No, no, no. That's just my recommendation. There was like one lone person was like, did anybody watch this? It's so good. So I found that on the Facebook page. I was like, I did. I loved it. There's maybe there were two people actually. Sorry. But I just wanted to to tell more people if if people liked British procedurals like a Luther or a

I don't know Dexter. Was that good? No, I did not like Dexter. Never saw it. It was super cheesy. It's a different type of procedural because it's it was very heavy handed. It was also narrated, which I almost always hate. So interesting. Was it like CSI? It was actually, but yes, no CSI. But Michael Seahall is awesome. He's from Six Feet Under. Oh, yeah, of course. He's great. And it's like the storylines are interesting because it's serial killer stuff. But there was just a lot of like, I don't know. And it didn't do it the way I like it. I went to his house on 4th of July once. Really? That's no, this is a, we'll call this this area is called Celebrity Center. It's called who to stock at a PO box besides Georgia. Let's talk about it.

Michael Seahall is a good person. Michael Seahall, for example. I know where he fucking lives, you guys. If you're thinking of killing me at my PO box, let me know and I'll give you Michael Seahall's address. Good. Throw him under the bus or give, why don't you have your mail sent to his mail box? Okay. I can't wait to see what, like what we start getting though. Like as much as I'm scared of dying, I'm also excited for like presents. For living. Yeah. Someone I don't even want to talk about it yet, but someone's made us lipsticks. What? Like our flavor of lips, like a Karen Kilgariff lipstick and a Georgia. No, I can't. Can you even fucking go? I can be more excited.

I know. I don't want to talk about it yet because I just want to open the box with you. Should I open before and present to you like I did? However you like to do it. Or should I, should we open the stuff together? I have a feeling you have a very specific way you like to do a mail situation. Well, I mean, yeah, probably things in general. Like do you, do you like to have it be a surprise? Remember last time I was afraid moths were going to come out? That's like a thing. I like a surprise, but probably because you, I knew you knew everything about it. Yeah, we could do either way. I guess I don't know. We could do anything. It might be fun to open it together. Yeah. I need a wrist now.

What if we open it and then we have to fake our response? Because we're not that stoked on it. Or like, you know, I used to work at Bio Bottoms, which was a children's natural fiber clothing company in my hometown. Okay. And the return. Bio Bottoms? It was called Bio Bottoms. They made a shit ton of money. But the returns department used to come and tell us weird shit that they got. Like what? Like just dog shit. Like someone sent back a box that just had an old dried piece of dog shit in it. No. Yeah. Okay. I'll open it first. I mean, as much as it would be fun to do that live. No, let's do it live. If we got, we should get like corners, like goggles, the full suit, gloves, hazmat, hazmat with it. Or we should

be open at all on a video and post that somewhere. Yeah. Make people pay to watch us open mail. That's a good idea. I mean, why not? Pay to open free shit. Come on. Yeah, we should do one video. Here we go again with my fucking plans and schemes, plans and schemes. You're the architect of this high rise building that we're living in together. I'm just a conduit fueled by too much coffee and Adderall. And the Invisalign. I just took out of my mouth because I realized how awful it sounds. I actually get great joy from watching you take your Invisalign out of your mouth. Because it looks like it's three times bigger than your mouth as you take it out. Yeah. So it's an event. It is. I feel like, and then there's like a string of saliva attached to it. It's real

sexy. It's fun. It's how we are. Do you have any other housekeeping? No, I don't know. Do you? No, I don't think so. Just I love to thank our murderators, Alex and Ari for handling shit. That page almost has 20,000 people on the face. You find it so when I told you that we were number two on the comedy podcast, you started laughing in the same in this like, can you what the fuck? It's crazy. It's so crazy. It is crazy. It's, I like that. Very fun. Three of the top five comedy podcasts right now are fucking female hosted, really female hosted. Is it Two Dub Queens? Two Dub Queens Anna Ferriss's podcast. Oh, nice. And us. She is so funny, Anna Ferriss. She's adorable. I adore her. Adorable. Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, I love it. You know, it's 2016. Yeah. Get on that

HuffPo. I don't know what that means. Actually, we have number one. Okay. We have an interview to tackle in my email. Oh, really? Yeah. Talk about it when we're not literally podcasting. And I'm should we put that into the celebrity center area? In my mind now we have all segments. It's going to be like a late night talk show. Yeah. So the, the mail these days. Can you read it? Did something happen to you recently in a mailbox? This is, let's take a look at the clip. Let's go to the GoPro that Georgia now wears on her head in case someone murders her. She can catch them. Like how like motorcyclists do. You're like a motorcyclist. You're always ready. That's actually a very good idea for people with extreme murder anxiety. Wear a helmet with a GoPro on it. So

if something happens, another idea, proof therapy and medic and anxiety medications. Yes. I mean, it's going to, it's going to end up being, it's going to need to be woven in together. Right. Beautiful French grade. So you know, it's someone recently emailed me and said, listen to your podcast and you thank you for talking about depression and anxiety. I have it and I've never done anything. Where do I even start to find a therapist? And I was like, so stoked. This person wrote me because to me it's like fucking second nature. I've been doing this since I was 12. So I'm just like, what? And so I gave them psychology today has a great, a great page. You put in your zip code and it tells you the psychologist in your area.

That's how I found my therapist. I found most of my therapist through that. And I love my therapist. I've been with her for like 12 years. Yeah, really? Wow. Yeah. And that's, it was one day. I think I tried one other person because I told my friend who was a therapist. So I couldn't go to her. So she's like, just tell me what you want. I'll recommend. And I said, I need to talk to somebody that looks like Olympia Dukakis. Well, that was a mistake. You can't do it that way. No, you can't cast it in your mind and pretend you're going to go act out scenes. They do have photos on the thing. And I've definitely been like, that's it.

She looks like a hippie. Right. I don't want to go to her. I don't want to go into a cloud of pot to talk about my problem. She doesn't know what it's like to just wear all this makeup all the time. I don't want someone who keeps interrupting my good stories with their stories of Woodstock and the doors. No, that psychology today. Yeah. Is this shit, that website? Yeah. So in case you're too scared to ask. Don't be scared. Everyone's in therapy. Yeah. And everyone needs to be in therapy. Also, psychology today is the freaking best magazine. Yeah, it's good. You should get it. It's all about understanding yourself.

Yeah, sure. I'm sorry. That was so condescending. It's gone first this week. I think it's you. Skipper times. Come back to us, Skippers. Oh, if it's mine this week, if I go first, um, I've, uh, oh, I've been, this past week has been quite crazed. Do you want me to go first? No, no, no, I can go. But I just want, I just need a little ramp up of, I had plans and schemes about what I was going to do and then realized I needed to do more work, uh, like really dig in and do some serious research because that's the thing is sometimes you go to talk about. So I want to do Ted Bundy because I'm, uh, three quarters of the way through that and rule book, The Stranger Beside Me, which is amazing.

There's other people on the Facebook page reading it. Um, so I love that that we're reading it at the same time. But I, when I do it, it should be comprehensive and not, you know, half-assed because he is, he's pretty much one of the most famous serial killers of our time. And sometimes when you will like pick a part of that story or pick, you know, you don't have to tell him from start to finish, but like, you know, the co-ed murders that he did. Yeah. Like if you pick a thing from it or how Richard Ramirez got caught, I think that was an amazing story on its own. I'll say what I'm passionate about, about Ted Bundy. But no, when I do it, it's going to be a three hour presentation. Um, I'll just take a nap. Okay. Uh, just read the

book on the podcast. Yes, exactly. In kind of a slow, low voice where people are just like, all right, I was trying to get through my work day, but whatever you feel like doing is fine. Yeah, this podcast has changed. It's a bummer. No. So I figured I would go back to my roots and I'm going to do, uh, my hometown murder, which is the most famous murder from my hometown, which is the poly class murder girl. Uh, and the other reason I'm telling this is because not only was it a first hand experience, I didn't live in my hometown when she was kidnapped. Um, but I lived in San Francisco and I would go home for holidays and I was back and forth all the time. Um, but poly class's mother is a woman named Eve. And Eve was my boss at the last job I had when I lived in

Petaluma, which was at bottoms, the natural fiber children's clothing. Oh my God. Done, done, done. It comes back around. So I actually didn't mean to make that reference, but then I was doing it. I was like, Oh, I'm probably doing this on purpose consciously, but, um, it was very strange because it's there's a lot of, uh, a lot of the times we look and we research these stories and it's these places that are like, you know, when we, when we talk about like the police messing up an investigation or things, you know, things getting screwed up or whatever, a lot of times it's because it's towns that have never had a crime to that degree. A murder or kidnapping or something where people don't have the experience and most of their career as a cop is pulling people over, you know,

giving people like DUIs and stuff. Totally. And it's before the internet. So you don't really experience. I mean, now we can read about other crimes and other cities ad nauseam. Yeah. And people can, and all police stations are, and cops are more connected because of the internet. So that's like that whole East area rapist, the golden state killer thing where there were, you know, there were police departments who were keeping information from each other because they were the ones that wanted the collar. That's, it's like all of that in the way that, you know, that criminal science is kind of developing because of the internet. Yeah. So, so my hometown is Petaluma, California. And it is one of those towns where

when I was growing up there, I think it the population was somewhere around 32,000. So it was a small farm town, basically. So the main town itself, there was like the downtown area at the east side had like more of like the newer development tract homes, kind of everyone on the east side had like a two story house. But on my side on the west side, that was out where all the dairy and chicken ranches were. So that's, I grew up five miles outside of town. And so we were basically, it was the country. And so when we like, when I was growing up, we didn't have cable. Holy shit. We only had four channel, we only got four channels on our TV. And we couldn't get pizza delivered to our house. Wow. We live too far out of town. And that was how a lot of kids I knew

grew up. Yeah. It was just country. That just seems like I can't imagine being that far. Like as someone who grew up literally with like shared walls with other apartments. Oh yeah. I just can't even imagine living in that much space. Yeah. It's, it's weird. It's like, you know, that we didn't have sidewalks. We didn't have, we didn't have street lights. Holy shit. So I think now they do on the street that I grew up on. But like at the time, like there was, when you drove at night out where I grew up, it was pitch black. I don't even know what the look like. I have never seen the stars like that unless I'm camping or something. It's so fun. When I got to my dad's house for like holidays, I get out of the car and I stand in his driveway and they'll be like,

come on, crazy. Like it's like, it's stars from like horizon to horizon. Yeah. People who aren't in LA or New York or big city don't, there's no stars because there's so much light pollution that you just can't see. We can never see stars here. Never. And the, and people that live in like, oh my God, if you live in like Kansas or like, oh, somewhere that's like kind of a low population and, and no light pollution. Totally. Dang. Dang dude. We used to lay out at nights in the summertime, our next door neighbor, the withingtons had a pool and we would sometimes have like a slumber party where we'd all lay in sleeping bags next to their pool and we would lay on their chaise lounges and look up and there would just be shooting stars all night long. We

just, that's all we did was go. There's one, there's one, there's one. It was awesome. That's amazing. So anyway, that's basically the feel of this town. This was the kind of town where, and I think I've told the story before in the show, but like in my town, that one time a guy on the street tried to purse snatch a lady's purse and everyone on the sidewalk chased him up the street. Yes. It's that everyone knows each other. Everyone's from there. People like stay there, grow up there, stay there, raise their kids there. There's generations and generations of like ranching people of all kinds of people. So it's cool. It's, I feel, now I feel lucky when I was growing up, I was like, get me out of here. Of course. I want

to go to Manhattan. Right. So when this happened, it happened. It was a little house that was on the, a little Walnut Park that was, I think it's Walnut Park, a little park that's in the kind of city center and it's really cute. My friend Heidi Peterson's mom actually had a house. So it's basically a park in the center and then the, you know, four streets squaring around it. So it wasn't rural. It wasn't in the middle of nowhere. No, they lived downtown Petaluma. Wow. So they lived walking distance. Like the main part of downtown is like Petaluma Boulevard and western and that's where like the really old buildings, the old two and three story buildings are. They lived probably 10 blocks from that part of town. Wow. So, but still, and this was, this happened in 1993,

but even then this was the kind of town where people did not lock their front door. Yeah. You just didn't, there was no reason to. No, I, it seems like such a, like what everyone says, like you didn't lock your door, but like, I'll wait. I don't think you did. Right. It's how like, it was, I think that's also the, that's that thing of like people as, as we get older and as this kind of like 2020 generation grows up. Yes. It's that thing of like, now we just know what happens to other people. Right. Our parents didn't do it because they came from a time when you didn't have to. We do it as adults because we, because we know the possibility. Right. We didn't understand the possibility as much, I think. Yeah. But also in these small towns

that it just didn't happen there. So it wasn't like, you're like, well, we should be careful. Anyway, it'd be like, don't be weird. Like there's no reason. So on October 1st, 1993, Polly was having a slumber party with two of her friends and Eve was in the front of the house. Her mom was in the front of the house and somebody came in their back door, uh, walked into her bedroom and the, the rumor is that he said, which one of you lives here? Now I know a bunch of small town rumors about this case and they could completely be bullshit, but I'm basically just telling you this. Oh, I want to hear those. Wait, so how old was she? She at the time was 12. Okay. And so were they sleeping already? They were all awake.

They were awake and like doing slumber party stuff. And the mom was awake and everything? Yes. Holy shit. Yeah. So he tied the friends up first and put sleep pillowcases over their head and they, then he took her out of the house and he told them to count to a thousand or kill them. So they, once they heard him go, they got free and then ran to the front of the house and said someone took Polly. Good for them. So, uh, the other thing is Dave Anthony, the co-host of the dollup, right? Uh, my first comedy boyfriend, when we lived in San Francisco, he still worked at the bank in his hometown, which is Nevada, the town, like the town next to my town going south to San Francisco. Um, and his boss at that bank, his daughter was one of those two girls.

Uh, so when this shit kicked off, it was like everyone you knew was affected in some way. Yeah. Everyone you knew knew a person, everyone you knew, like my sister's best friend, Adrienne, who is basically like my sister too. Um, she, she pulled out a photo album one time because she also worked at bio bottoms. That job was actually really awesome. It was like, paid you way more than minimum wage. Right. It was a, and we basically just sat there from like six in the morning until two in the afternoon and took calls and took orders and so you could actually make kind of a good living and, and then have the rest of your day done. So she was like a young mother. She worked there with me. She pulled out a photo album one

time of, uh, there was somebody had a baby shower and everybody was there and Eve brought Polly to that baby shower. So this girl was like, it's that thing where it's not just, oh, a girl from our town. We all feel so everybody knew this family. Holy shit. That's like, that's so crazy that when there's this like, and I've noticed this with hometown murders that are all like my brother's best friend from college or it's always someone, you know, it's not just the hometown murder, the thing that happened in their hometown. It's like a thing that could have been them or they knew the people or they affected, you know, affected them somehow. Totally. So interesting. Well, and that, I think that's also that thing that ties us into it is because like I remember

the first time I went home, my sister called me to tell me that it happened. And the first time I went home, I drove. So to get off the freeway, I have to drive up Petaluma Boulevard and then my parents now live it. My dad lives in town. They finally, of course, when we graduated from high school moved out, that's when my parents moved into town and got cable and ordered pizza. They didn't have cable until you left for college. No. Oh my God. No, I, my, my friends would talk about the Brady bunch. That was like on channel 44, which was like, oh, that's the San Francisco station that like other people have. Yeah. We just had dipshit Gilligan's Island. Anyway, I'm not shaming you. It's just like, it's such an interesting fact of your life. Yeah. It's so weird. And also because

my dad's a fireman, which is this classic move of firemen, which was we have cable in the firehouse, we don't need that shit. Cause so he saw all the terrible stuff that cable provided and he was like, I'm keeping that away from my kids. And yet it didn't make a fucking difference. Look at you now. Look at the things I'm talking about and how much I say the F word. It has no, it had no bearing on your life at all. I think it pushed me the other direction. Probably. That's why I'm a Satanist. Just kidding. Dad. He's not listening to this. So anyway, what the first time I came home after my sister told me about it, I'm pretty sure it was for Thanksgiving. Um, was it, or maybe it was somewhere in the middle of November, the entire town,

because her Polly's favorite color was purple, the entire town and every fucking car had a purple bow on it, like the purple ribbon, like the yellow ribbon for soldiers. There was purple ribbons for waiting for Polly to get found. How long had she been gone by that point? Well, that she got kidnapped on October 1st. Wow. And so this was probably three weeks. It was everywhere. And it was like, it gave me the chills. And by the time I got to my parents, as I was crying, it was so heavy. Then my sister, who loves to be this person, started telling me all the stuff that she heard. And apparently, so that happened the night of October 1st, the next day they had to tell all the kids at Petaluma Junior High, because she was in,

um, I believe seventh grade. Yeah. And she was, is the beginning of seventh grade. Like, if it was October, she'd probably only been in school for a couple months. Yeah. They made the announcement that she was missing and they had flyers that said, have you seen me? And they said, after school, we want you all to hand these out everywhere you can. The kids took the flyers and all got up and left school right that moment and went out into the town. Are you crying? My sister told me that story and I sobbed for like 10 minutes straight. Because it's like these kids, this was a girl that was their friend. This was the girl they had a crush on. This was like a real person, a human being that someone just fucking took out of her

room. I mean, it's so brazen that it's, it's a nightmare. It's even scarier that it's just like not other circumstances. Like she was alone or, you know, her parents weren't home or something. Exactly. It's like, how do you protect yourself? You can't blame anything. Yeah, exactly. And, and also that, yeah, it's just, it's every parent's nightmare. It's every kid's nightmare. Yeah. So the young, the young children of that class in Petaluma high, Petaluma junior high, I've always had just this like the biggest warm spot in my heart for them because also it was just like, we don't give a fuck, like put us on detention. What are you going to do? We're going to go do everything we can to help find her. Yeah. And how can you sit through the rest of the school day?

I mean, I get it. I mean, I'm sure, you know, but it's just, it was kind of just a beautiful, incredibly sad thing. And the whole town took it that way. I mean, everybody, you know, they, they, so Winona writer is from my hometown. Okay. And she thinks she also grew up like out in the country like I did. And she went to Petaluma junior high and Petaluma high school. And she came back and she made the announcement when they were still looking for her. So they ended up finding her, or no, they, they ended up like making an arrest near the end of November at the beginning of December. So somewhere in there, like at the end of November, Winona writer went on TV and made an announcement at national news saying this girl's missing. If you've seen her,

we love her. She's part of the community. This is my town. Like all the shit where, you know, I'm sitting in an apartment in San Francisco watching it being like, this is so weird. This is my, this is where I grew up. This is my whole life. And like, and it's everyone going like, yeah, this is, this is our girl. Like we have to find her and someone has to do something. So the horrible part of all of it is these, the, the policemen, the Petaluma police actually immediately called in the FBI. They did all that stuff that we talked, we talked about like, and there's other, or Nevada, that other murder, that young girl, where they just immediately called the FBI, like they know they're over their head. They do the whole missing person thing.

But the problem was the night that it happened when the APB went out, it went out on the sheriff's channel, which was channel one. And that night, there was some Sonoma Valley police officers that found, so a woman was a baby sitting at her boss's house and she saw a car that was on her boss's private road. And so she called the police and said, I don't know who this guy is, but there's a car sitting down there stuck in a ditch and someone needs to come. So it was the, from, from what I saw on Wikipedia, it said Sonoma Valley police. I'm not sure if that's accurate or what area they were in, but it was, it was somewhere kind of in the rural part, because so it all goes kind of starts going by county. So it might have been Sonoma County,

sheriff's Sonoma County police, whatever, but they call the police to go out there and the police who went were on channel three. This was before they had united all of the APB channels. So if the APB went out for the sheriff's department, it only went out to the other sheriffs on channel one, I guess. Now they have it because of this kidnapping and this murder. They changed all of that. So the second an APB goes out and 911, whatever thing like that, everybody hears it on all of those channels, but it wasn't like that then. So these two cops go up and they check this guy out. They don't know, they don't like how he looks. They don't like where he is. They don't, he, they're asking him a bunch of questions. He's got an open container. He's clearly been drinking.

He's got leaves in his hair and he's got shit on him. And, but they search the car. There's nothing going on. There's nothing in the car. So there's nothing they can do. They told, they really didn't like, they just the feel of it, knowing nothing about what was going on. They didn't like him, but they told the, and this is going to sound blamey, but it's, it's one of those things where it's like you, it's better to overdo it than not do anything at all. Definitely. Because they told the property owner, um, you need to make a citizen's arrest. So we can arrest this guy because we can't, there's nothing that's going on that we can do anything about because this is a private road, it's your property. So you need to come out and say, I want,

you're under citizen's arrest and then we can take him away. And the property owner was like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. So they, which is understandable because then he knows where she lives. That's exactly right. The minute she, you know, he gets let out. Yeah. So, so they have to let him go. Yeah. But what they did was they did, they basically did every little piece. This is like now the opposite of most of the stories we hear. These cops did every little piece of paperwork they possibly could about this guy. They took his name. They took all the information about his car, where they were, the report and everything. And they filed the thing. It's called like an F1 file or something like that. And it was the one thing that they could basically do was, was fill out this

what is it called? It's called an, it doesn't really matter. It's like an F1 card or something like that. Okay. That basically says this was an event that happened that the police got called to that we don't like, but there's nothing we can do, but it happened and we want people to know. So they did that immediately. And then when did they find out that that's who that was? Sorry. It was an Fi card, a field interrogation card. Okay. So they have all his information. They have the car information and what happened. Sorry. What was the question? That makes sense. So when did they realize who it was? Are we getting that? I thought that's what you meant. Oh, okay. So no, so once they left, they don't know on November 28th. So then it was basically

two, two months later. Yeah. That same property owner is inspecting her property after loggers partially cleared the property of trees. And she discovers items that make her think that they might have matched those used in the kidnapping. Oh no. So the sheriff department goes out there and they find a torn pair of ballet leggings that matched by the FBI crime lab to the other part of the leggings that were taken as evidence the night of the kidnapping. So they basically, that the theory is that he had already taken her out of the car and hidden her out in these bushes. Well, well, and then went back to the car, then the cops pull up and he's just like, yeah, you can look at any shit that I want because she's tied up in the bushes over there.

That they don't know whether or not he when they arrested this guy. So this guy's named Richard Allen Davis. He has he is on par with Charles Manson in how many times he has been arrested, had been in jail, like the worst record miles long. He wouldn't tell them anything. He wouldn't tell them that the events once he confessed that he's the one that that killed her. He didn't, he wouldn't give them details of anything. So they would try to walk him through it and he just wouldn't say what happened or what he did or anything. He just admitted like they had all the enough evidence to bring him trial. And he basically was like, yeah, I did it. But he didn't, he didn't tell them he didn't, they don't know if she was murdered that night.

They don't know if he kept her for longer, but she wasn't found. Her body wasn't found there. Her body was found off of the 101 freeway pretty far north up in Cloverfield, which is like, it's so weird too. Like when I you hear all these things like these are the towns where we played, we played against them in softball high school. It's like the town you would go to. We would go there on our way to Blue Lake on our way to vacation every summer. No, I'm picturing places in Orange County and I can, I can make sense of that. Yeah. So it's just like you're just thinking as you drive up, it's also rural up there anyway, but as you drive up, you just look out and somewhere off the side of the highway,

there was a little girl's body buried. I hate it. It's really awful. Essentially they, the three strike law was put into place after this case happened because this guy had such an insane record where it was like, you can't just get arrested for a ton of terrible shit like 50 times in your life and not have, and just keep getting out and keep doing stuff like this. Like he, he was, he was pretty awful. So he admitted to strangling her to death, but that's all the information that he would give. I wonder why he wouldn't, because he was toying with them. He would think that if he had gotten them, sorry, am I interrupting you? No, not at all. You would think that if he had not killed her before the cops came,

he would have wanted them to know that so he can like taunt them almost. He was super weird. So when they, when they put him on trial, he did a bunch of weird shit. He flipped off like the jury, like he was Mancini in that way where he, it was stuff like before they arrested him in my town, there was the rumor was that the father did it. Oh fuck. And it was because they were like, he's got, you know, he owes money to the, he owes money for gambling. He's this, he's that. And the father was on TV constantly. If you remember anything from this case, you remember Mark Kloss being on TV and talking about her. So I think a lot of people in my town, their reaction to that was like, it seems like

you're enjoying this publicity a little too much. Looking back, that poor guy, yes, an awful thing to say. Yeah. Well, that's small town gossip. You know what I mean? Where everyone's looking for the answer. And so it's easy to get a target on your back. And also it just, it's, it's one thing to be on the news crying and being like, I need my daughter back. But I don't know. It was easy to kind of put that on him. Cause I think he, he was a zealot, but I mean, you know, that's, it's that thing of like, we don't know how people grieve. Right. And, and he could be the kind of person that's like, I just need to do something with myself. Look at Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman's dad. Yeah. You know, I went out of his mind. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who's to say how,

how you would act or how it would be. Here's the good news, if any, about any of that. There's a, there's now, they took the, there was this little church that in this weird part of the road where I go to go to my dad's house and they took that. And that's now called the Polyclos Center for the Performing Arts, cause she was big into theater and she wanted to be an actress. And that was why it meant so much that Winona Ryder came back and talked about her. It was all very sweet. So they've kind of dedicated that to like kids, you know, making sure kids like, I guess, have a place to perform. And I don't know, it's for that part, it's very sweet and positive. And the thing about, they basically, all the things that got fucked up in the beginning with

through communication, they actually did stuff about. Sure. Yeah. That's great. Like the APB thing and the three strikes law, they're like a lot of good things came out of that. It's amazing. But also Richard Allen Davis actually had to get put into solitary because he was getting beaten up so much. So God bless, like that jailhouse justice, like they couldn't, they couldn't wait to beat this man up for killing this girl. I mean, I want to say good, but at the same time, it's, you can't, you can't say that. There's no, yeah, there's no conscience. There's no good. But they actually, and he's on death row, he got the death sentence. So he's still alive now. He's still alive because California doesn't ever really execute anybody. So it's just, it's people sitting on death row.

But his lawyers actually tried to say, they try, they, they have tried to get where is it? Where is this part? They basically tried to say that it's torturing him by making him wait to find out when he's going to be executed. They tried to make that argument that it's like, that it's, what do you call that? It's called them inhumane. What is it called? Yeah, something like something along those lines. Or it's just like, when you, when I read the paragraph, I was just like, you got to be fucking cute. Who would actually have the balls to say that out loud? Sometimes, sometimes I get really mad at lawyers. I don't want to start the whole like shit talking that we do about cops sometimes, because I know it's complicated and you promise

to do these things and you're in a public law. But sometimes I'm just like, I just don't know how they live with themselves sometimes when they're defending someone who's a monster. Exactly. And, and doing the best that they can to, to get them off. I guess it's not, I guess you just want to get them a fair trial. Yeah, it must be hard. I would never want to be a lawyer ever. Oh, cruel and unusual pun. There it is. Yeah, that's the one we were looking for. Wow. Yeah, that's sad. So that's mine. I actually had a lot of guilt for not doing this story earlier because it was, it's my real hometown murder. Because I knew like I was, it was really a part of my life. But then also it feels bad to talk about like, I actually hesitated in saying her

mom's name because I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to do anything. You started crying in it. I don't think you've ever done that in any of them. So it's important and I don't think you should feel mad at all. Okay. Also, there was, this is, there's another little girl that got killed in my town that no one talks about because she was black. Her name's Georgia Moses. And that story is really sad and awful. I'll do it at a different time. But that actually gets brought up a lot in tandem with Polly class because it's like Polly class was a beautiful little girl. Right. Like the, you know, blonde. She was, no, she wasn't blonde, but she was. Let's say she was blonde. She, but it's that thing of like, you know, the press loves like a beautiful little

murder like that. And then when it's a story of a girl who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had all the worst in her life and then was just murdered, like just thrown away. No one talks about it. Yeah. And except for Tom weights, who lives in my town way out in the country, wrote a song for Georgia Moses. Yeah. I bet you can find his PO box pretty easily. Is that terrible? Not at all. Thank you. Oh, Georgia Moses. I'm sorry. Yeah. But I'm all, yeah, that's fucking bummer. I know. I know. How do you feel now? You know what? I'm glad. I'm glad I said it. Do you feel cleansed a little? No. Okay. No. I just think it's like, you know what? It's all around us. That's kind of the thing that,

yeah, that I feel like keeps coming up on this podcast. It's like, this isn't special. No, I know it happens. The people that it happens to are and it's a full on tragedy in ways that you can't even take in, but it, it happens constantly. Yeah. It's like a, it's a very normal part of life, which I think once you, well, the reason we're doing that is because like we're, we see that and we're freaked out by it and fascinated by it. And like we could have a million episodes and not get to have the, the like everyday murders that just happen all the time that you haven't heard about or you haven't, didn't know the details for real. It's just, yeah. Yeah. People get fucking murdered. What's your murder? So my murder. Okay. Like a month and a half or two months ago, we got

an email inviting us to the screening of a new documentary called the witness. And it's a documentary about kitty, uh, Jenna, Jenna V's. That's how you say it, right? Kitty Jenna V's. Um, and we couldn't go. And so the guy sent us, um, a screener to watch. You did? Yeah. You didn't see that? There's like a password and shit. Oh yeah. I'm a email skimmer. Oh, okay. Constantly in trouble for it. That's hilarious. I like read into every single word on the email. I'm like, what do they mean by that? I just saw that invitation and I was like, it was a big long thing about being invited, but there were no details where I was like, what time? Like where? And then I just kind of gave up after that. Yeah. I mean, and I was kind of like, okay, whatever

about it. Um, and this was like a while ago and finally I started watching it last night and it's really fucking good. Oh, awesome. Yeah. The, the narrator, the guy who's kind of the, the, in the, in the shit of it, he's like the dude who you follow is kitty Jenna V's little brother. Wow. Yeah. In real life. Yes. Wow. So he, okay. So let me tell you about the murder a little bit. Okay. Um, let's see. So Catherine kitty, Jenna V's was stabbed to death outside her apartment building in Q gardens, Queens. Like I feel like everyone knows the story. And that's why it was a little like, okay, like I've heard the story a million fucking times. She's the girl that basically everyone is like, she was being stabbed. There were 38 witnesses from an apartment building across

the street and no one did anything. And it kind of started the whole like the bystander effect, bystander effect where nobody, you know, the more people watching something, the less likely anyone's going to interview me and it had, it had all these like these effects on New York and what's happening to the city and people are horrible and, you know, this kind of, this kind of awful thing of, of nobody helping. Yeah. It's in like every psych 101 totally. Yeah. So yeah. And so I don't want to spoil the movie because I think everyone should go see it, but I'm going to talk about them, the murder so that people remember what it is and also some of the interesting points from this movie without spoiling it. Cause I don't think I could do that. It's really fucking good.

Okay. So on March 13th, she finishes her shift at a sports bar. She's a bartender and she gets home and parks her car at three in the morning at like a side parking lot, which sucks. And I feel like she immediately saw her killer Winston Mosley was like hanging out, clearly looking for a victim. So she gets home at like three 15. She parks. It's about 100 feet from her apartment door. Yeah. So she's walking towards her building. He starts to approach her. She immediately starts running and like knowing something's going on. He overtakes her and stabs her twice right there on the sidewalk right across the street from this huge apartment building. And so the story is that people came out and looked and no one fucking did anything. But in reality, it's so much murkier

than that. What it sounds like is that most people thought it was a lover's quarrel. They look out the window, but she's, but she yells, Oh my God, he stabbed me, helped me. But most people didn't hear her cry out in the beginning. Most people thought it was a bar brawl or a lover's quarrel. And by the time a lot of people looked out, he was running away. And, and so she walks around the corner stumbling to her apartment. And so people see her go around the corner and that's all they saw. And in reality, people did call the police. But back then you just called, you didn't call, there was no 911. And this is part of the reason there is a 911 now is because they needed, they need, you know, you can't just call the police precinct and get people there.

Okay. The earliest calls to the police are unclear and weren't given a high priority by them. And it looks like some of them might not have even been logged. One witness at his father called the police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was beat up, but got up and was staggering around. So no one knew she was actually being stabbed. So if, so he fucking runs away when someone yells out the window, let that girl alone. That's like you hear him in the documentary and he's like this salty old man. He's amazing. Let that girl alone. He runs away. She staggers off. He mostly leaves, comes back when he realizes that no cops are coming and finds her again, which is the most fucking terrifying part of this whole story. So you can't,

if someone had come out to see how she was, and there was a doorman in the apartment building right across the street, if someone had come out, you know, maybe they could have helped her brought her into the house. Instead, she goes into the doorway of her apartment building, which has one, it's got one outside door and then a locked inside door and she's dying. And so she can't get her keys or unlock that door. He fucking comes back and finds her in the stairwell. Just like a fucking deer that had been, you know, any what and stabs or more stabs or more. They don't mention, I haven't finished the documentary yet and they don't mention this. And maybe it's just because he can't fucking handle it, which is fair. But

I read that he raped her. After he stabbed her? After he, well, she was dying. He raped her. I don't know if they're going to mention it in the documentary. I'm sure they will because it's a huge part of it. But I heard that in the documentary it says that he attempted to. So I wonder, and the brother, it's so interesting because he's like, I've never been able to deal with, I haven't done the details of this until recently because I just couldn't handle it. And it seems like it was a really tight knit family. Yeah, that's so understandable. I don't know how people deal with that when they find out the details of horrible things that happened to their, like those necks of kin. I mean, it's awful. I mean, they didn't, I guess the family

didn't even go to the trial because they just couldn't even handle it. I bet. You know, which is like, what's great about this documentary is it feels like this guy is kind of like, the more I know, the closer I'll be to her and I need to find out what happened and know the truth. Because this is the truth of that, of that crime now is what everyone wrote about it. And when people talk about it in sociology classes and shit, which is turning out not to be true. So, you know, the New York Times article said that it was 38 people witnessed it and didn't know. But so, but the upstairs neighbor looked out into the stairwell sees her being stabbed, closes the door and calls his girlfriend who said, don't get

involved. But then later calls the police. So like, dude, you should feel like shit, right? Yeah, it's like, but also it's New York City. I know it's that thing where, yeah, you don't, what are you going to go out there and who knows what's actually happening? Totally. Is it just a lever squirrel? Do you really want to get involved? It's like, yeah, not that I wouldn't get involved in the, not that the woman deserves it because it's a lever squirrel, but it makes sense in that city setting. Yeah, like anything can happen and you just don't know. Yeah. Right. Put your life at risk for a stranger who could turn around and be like, get the fuck out of here. You don't know. Well, here's a really interesting one of the parts of

the documentary that I love is he's interviewing the kid and the family never knew that their next door neighbor who was Kitty's best, like one of her good friends, the sooner she found out what happened, put on her house coat, ran out and held Kitty until she, until the ambulance came. And the brother in the documentary was like, I wish my, why didn't my family know that? It would have meant so much to us to know that her friend was there while she died. And so the son is being interviewed, her, the friend's son, and is like, here's the thing about this neighborhood. A lot of people were Holocaust survivors and a lot of people in that building were Holocaust survivors and you don't,

you don't intervene. You don't stick your nose. You don't, you know, get involved in what might happen within cops and police interrogations. You just fucking leave it alone, which is such a sad thing that you would never think about. Right. You know, well, those are people that are like, I've had plenty of trouble. I'm not doing it anymore. Right. You mind your fucking business. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's, it's gross, but it's hard to, it's hard to argue. So it mostly gets, gets caught a couple days later when he's burglarizing a house. He had no prior criminal record and he was married with three children and he got up the night of, out of bed where his wife was sleeping to go find a woman to kill. What? Yeah. But he had actually killed two other women

and he had never been caught. And he did a bunch of burglars as well. Oh, so he is like a burgeoning serial killer. Totally. Absolutely. Let's see. He confessed, confessed to 30 to 40 burglaries. It's a psychiatric examination suggested he was a necrophile. Fuck. And then he said something, he said that he, his motive was simply he wanted to kill a woman. That was his motive. Yeah. It's pretty sick. So I have to say I've seen the picture of that guy. He has very plucked eyebrows. He looks a lot like Prince and Richard Little had a baby. Richard Little? I'm not Richard Little. Little Richard. Where am I? Oh, no. No, that's exactly right. He looks like a drag queen at the end of her shit. Totally. Like washed it all off, is ready to just, you know, high cheek

bones, high cheek bones, very plucked eyebrows or something like a cat like face. Yes. Weird. I'm picturing seeing that face standing above me, stabbing me. Because what is the deal? What is the deal? So all right, he confesses, let's see, he's a fucking necro. So in the 70s, he, okay. So while in prison in the 70s, he gets a Bachelor of Arts in sociology, which is insane. Oh, good. Like there's, you're not using that for, for good, dude. You're using that to understand how you can take advantage of people. That is Ted Bundy action. Ted Bundy was a psychology major. Son of a bitch. Yep. And they know. Oh, that's so man. And then during his, he was eligible for parole in 84, which is like, what the fuck? And at his first parole hearing,

he told the parole board that the notoriety he faced due to his crimes made him a victim stating, yes, he's the victim. Yeah. For a victim outside, it's a one time or one hour or one minute affair. But for the person who's caught, it's forever. Yeah. Much sadder. Yeah. Much sadder. Oh, you get a minute of murder and I have to live the rest of my life in jail. Well, you know what? How about you put your super sociological mind to that and say, then maybe don't stab people and you won't be so deeply victimized by your fucking shitty behavior. You're correct. And that's why you don't fucking, not that's not the only reason, but that's one of the reasons you don't murder. Well, that's, this is the Brock Turner thing of like this, this drunken girl is ruining my whole future.

And it's like no rapist. Yeah. You ruined your future. Yeah. You did it dummy. Like they, it's they, it's that it's very psychopathic. It's like you skip over the thing you did that made things happen. Have you known people like that? Or you're like, how do you not see your role in this thing? Oh, yeah. I asked that because I'm sure you stopped. I have stopped participating with people like that for that. A very reason the, if you cannot admit your own faults in your life, that the behavior that you bring to the table is the thing that affects and creates the situation around you. If it's always other people, then you have a major problem. It's so, so weird to see those people and like, I mean, it almost feels like the art and argument or the blame thing is

like a game to win. Yes. And so as soon as they can get you to not blame them and to take it all on you, which I've fucking done many times with people, they win. You have to read the book, the sociopath next door, because I think in the, I think the numbers are, it's one in four. People are sociopaths and those people have no conscience. Everything is a power game to them. All they want to do is beat you and they will beat you in terms of money, in terms of sex, in terms of status. That's all they care about. Yeah. And they don't have empathy. So you're constantly left going, I would never do this, but it's like, yeah, that's right. Cause this isn't, this person is nothing like you. Are you scared? You're going to like, if you read that,

you'll just like look for that in everyone. I mean, because everyone should look forward in everyone. You should, because then you know, when you're being mind fucked, you'll go, oh my god, that's, oh, now I realize why I'm so like, you need to know that information. Yeah. Okay. You need to be able to spot a sociopath. I think that should be taught in high schools. I'm not kidding. Can I put it in a comic book so Vince doesn't see me reading that and think I'm like studying up on him? Vince is not a sociopath. I know he's not. Oh, you just don't want him to see you paying attention to it. Yeah. Or like being like, why are you reading that? Say, I'm doing it for you, baby. Yeah. This is for, this is for the marriage. I say, I'm a sociopath. I think our cats are

sociopaths. One in four. I mean, if we had one more person in this room, it would be one of us. I'm thinking it's, it's so easy to like put some of that on people I know. Well, also because sometimes people just piss you off. So it's like calling someone a sociopath is very satisfying. It's like, well, this makes sense. But I do know people who, after being friends with them for a while, and then being like, I cannot be friends with you anymore. You are like, you're basically a vampire. Yeah. Then when you, when you pull away and then you read this book, you go, holy shit. Yeah. I mean, there's like a step by step thing where it's like, is this a person who would never cop to anything? Is this a person who only ever wanted

to take more for themselves? It's like, it's a very clear kind of defining thing. Read it. I think I over, I over accept responsibility for things because I don't, I'm trying so hard not to, not to let myself get away with shit. Yes. Well, part of it, I do the exact same thing. And for me, part of it is an ego problem because I think the world revolves around me 100%. So I like the idea of people of like, oh my God, this person is doing this and that. Like it, it adds to my ego mania of like, I'm, everybody's thinking of me all the time. There is a certain something about like, even being like, I feel so bad about this thing that happened where it's like, nobody,

why are you making it about you? Right. Not you specifically, but like, well, it's better to let it go. Like the healthier thing is to be like, maybe I had 50% of that. Maybe I had 0% of that. Yeah. Like, but look at it, learn from it, move on and let it go. But to sit around and be like, oh, I was so bad that time. It's like, yeah, you're just thinking of yourself and not thinking of other people. Yeah. I'm a sociopath. Are you? I'm in video right now. No, you're one in three, one in three, including Elvis. It's me. But what if it's me? No, it's not me. Well, do you have a conscience?

Yeah. Then you're fine. I mean, what's a, can you, what's a conscience? No, I didn't holiday. Guilt. I mean, yeah, we got that covered. Yeah. Stephen. Guilty. Do you feel it? I feel guilty all the time. We're all good. We just need the next person to walk to the store, which will probably be event. It's the sociopath. Let's play a game. Your neighbor knocks on the door. Excuse me. My mom just drops in and I'm like, yeah, no shit. Hi, welcome. Hi. My therapist was right about you. Did you answer some questions for me as I, let me just pull this book out of my back pocket. Oh, mom. Okay. What did I want to, what was my, let's see here, Holocaust survivors. Yeah.

None of the witnesses observed the attacks in their entirety because of the layout of the complex was weird. And it seems like she was attacked in two different places. Yeah. And they, and as far as they knew, he ran away and she walked away and they couldn't see her anymore. And she was staggering. I mean, how do you, she only got stabbed twice. So how do you know you couldn't even see that she was stabbed by the time you run to the window? See, I remember that story from a psychology class that she got stabbed like 35 times. She got stabbed a lot more once he came back to her. Oh, okay. So that was, oh, I see. The initial attack. Witnessable part was two stabs. Right. The initial, like when everyone saw it was two, and then he had a private mom, you know, private in the doorway.

So no one actually saw that. That's so terrible. That's so nightmarish. There's a crime to remember about Kenny, Kitty Genevieve. Yeah. And I just was like, okay, I didn't even watch it. You didn't? No, I'm sure I watched it because I watched every episode of that show. There's also a girls episode where they like talk about it. Oh, really? Like the one of the guys is in a play where they reenact the whole thing. Oh, but of course, there's a lot of girls drama going on. So they don't really talk about it. But I love that show. I'm not making fun of it. Let's see. So it became known as the bystander effect or the Genevieve Genevieve's syndrome. But people are now questioning what really fucking happened. So okay, so everyone go to YouTube and you can watch the trailer. It's

called the witness. And if you go to the witness dash film.com, you there it's in the theaters right now. If you have an art house theater in your town, and it's going to beat a lot of small towns. So it's not like random and hopefully it'll be on Hulu or something at some point. Yeah. And then it's unlikely that she was able to scream at any point after she got stabbed the first time anyways, because they stabbed her because they stabbed her in the lungs. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, they punctured her. He punctured they he punctured her lung. So after that second stabbing, she probably wasn't screaming anyways. So it's not like a bunch of people ignored that as well. This whole murder is like worst case scenario,

fucking, fucking worse. Like she would have died from the initial attack, it sounds like, because he punctured a lung and she died from excruciation. But and so if the cops had been calling at that point, they took her to the hospital and she died, it, it wouldn't have been the same thing as if he fucking ran away and came back and was like, nobody cares. Yeah, I can continue this. Yeah. That's so awful to think about. Yeah, it's dark. Yeah. Yeah. But the universal emergency phone number was created after this. And yeah, today it's used all the time. But so yeah, the witness is the movie. It's by James Solomon. And it's a really found like just watch that I feel like anyone who listens to this podcast will watch this trailer

and definitely want to see it. Yeah, it's really good. And it's such a classic case. I feel like even if you were, you've never been interested in true crime, you've heard the the Kitty Genevieve story. Yeah. It's like prerequisite in college and stuff. But I guess that's it's an interesting thing to be like, yeah, you know, this thing that you've heard about your whole life, it's not the way you heard it. That's what I love about it. So I hope it's not boring that I did this, this case, but I just thought it was the stuff that you'd never, you never knew about it. And I really was, it's one of those cases where I was like, I've heard that a million times, I know about it, you fucking totally don't. And then to see it from the brother's point of view.

It also is like kind of a badass dude himself. Yeah. Where it happened in the Bronx in Queens, Queens. Yeah. People from Queens are kind of the greatest. Oh, yeah. The voice, listen to it just for the interviews he does with the people who live around there. They're incredible. The accents are incredible. There's a lot of, there's like a beautiful illustrated element of it that they use as like interstitials or to to show what was actually going on with this gorgeous illustration. Wow. Yeah. Very simple line drawings, but it's super beautiful. I haven't seen this movie, but I also recommend the crime to remember episode about her, Keating Jettavies, because they put out some other alternate theories that are very interesting.

Wasn't one like the downstairs neighbor might have done it. Yeah. They don't, they didn't seem convinced he did it. But I did none of that information that he'd already killed to other women was in there. They focused a lot on how racist the NYPD was back then. And so that they basically would grab up black people, black men. Yeah. And just be like, were you in the neighborhood? It's you. It sounds like way different than it is today. Oh, so, so different. I would just like to say, because I saw a documentary. Is yours done? Sure. Yeah. No, totally. Oh, okay. No, it totally is. Yeah. Well, I just saw this. I'm going to bring yours to an end so I can recommend my documentary that isn't true crime. But well,

it is because it's crime. Yeah. It's called tickled. And it is unbelievably amazing because it starts out there about this online tickling competition, tickling league, professional tickling league, I think it's called already needed a fucking shower. Yes. Except for it's not what you think it's not some weird like, can you believe these people exist? It goes into the craziest, darkest, scariest fucking thing. And it's this one New Zealand reporter who went who went looking into it because he's basically a human interest reporter for the local news. He got into deep. He immediately started getting threatened. And so instead of being like, whoops, better close this up. He starts investigating it. And it's amazing. And interestingly enough,

and not to talk about them all the time, but our friends, the dollop who did a very, very popular episode about these tickling competitions very early on, like this guy did this New Zealand reporter did the story. They, Dave and Gareth got sent the story, I think by people in Australia or New Zealand saying, you guys have to talk about this. It's crazy. And so then they did that episode of the dollop was super popular. And it's actually featured in the documentary. Shut up. Yes. They have audio clips of the dollop talking about this. He's made it. And it's the very beginning of the movie. And then it goes into like, he's like, he basically is like, yeah, I thought this was this kooky crazy thing. And then I started researching it. And it is edge of your seat. It was one of

those things we saw at the Sunset Sundance, whatever theater. And there was only like 10, 15 people in the theater. And a bunch of us were all sitting in one row, which was kind of funny. Like, basically there was like nine people in one row and then like four people outside of our row. Yeah. But by the end, we were all talking to each other. It was one of those like so upsetting and like, Oh my God, what's happening? Which one was it on? I want to watch it. No, it's a movie. It's a documentary movie that's in like our house theaters right now, like the witnesses. Man, we got to have a double feature. Yes. I wonder if we could host a double feature. We should email this guy. I feel like we want to do this. Everything that goes on,

you got an idea. I love it. What is that? It's the best. It's your, you're the reason. You're the reason it's all happening. I always think of myself as such a lazy person and I'm like constantly be writing myself for being lazy. And then like sometimes I'll have to write a list of things I'm doing to just be like, just look at this Georgia. Everything is okay. Yeah. No, you're doing a lot of stuff. I liked when we were watching the Simpsons and we were on the same episode and then you were like, we've got to watch episode five together and live tweet it. And I was like, you might want to watch the other episodes before you decide we should live tweet this. It's kind of a bummer. I know. It's like, we can, what do we do this? What do we do

that? We can do that? And like sometimes like when you just got here, you were like, you kind of had a talk, like we had a conversation about something regarding the podcast and you kind of had to like talk me down from it. I couldn't breathe. I get it though. Yeah. You get, I can tell when you're excited or like there's a lot going on because you're, it almost looks like you're slowly drowning and you're trying to tell me something before you go under. It's kind of what it's like. Take a deep breath. It's happened my entire life. Yeah. Like I have to yawn. I yawn a lot because I have to catch my breath. And so I get so worked up. That's why you've noticed it. You have to think about breathing more. Yeah. Because that's what yawning is about. Yawning

is about low oxygen levels. Yeah. And you have to like your body goes, take this, take as much oxygen in as you can. So like I've gotten up in the middle of the night and like wrote a blog post about how it like, it's, you really feel like you're drowning and you can't breathe. Yeah. And it's just anxiety. And then that perpetuates itself and you just still can't breathe. And anyways. Yeah. So a lot of great ideas guys. A lot of great. Oh, there was someone that made my favorite piece of art that got made on the, that got posted on the Facebook page last week is someone did a freehand drawing that was a picture of the forest that said, get a job, make it, buy your own shit, stay out of the forest. But, but with these banners or

did you see that? Yeah. It's so beautifully done. And it was someone who said their friend did it, but they're not, they don't want to be on the phone. Right. Come on, man. I got an email from a girl that I know today who was like, oh, I just started a new job and I overheard my co-workers saying, oh my God, I'm obsessed with this new podcast. And they were like, me too. And they were like, what's it called? My favorite murder. And my friend Kelsey was like, I was trying, I wanted to tell them so bad and bragged that I knew you, but it's a new job. And I was like, tell them, look at her raise. She's like, I'm going to hold it for four more days and then drop the bomb.

They'll be like, guess what? Yes. I love it. It makes me happy that a lot of people say they feel like we're best friends. Totally. Not with each other. Best. There it is. And that's it. We're done. Stay sexy. No, are we? Yes. Okay, go do it again. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. It was when I cookie cookie. That's a yes. Bye.