My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 244 - Be Nostalgic For Old Problems

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

Karen and Georgia cover the Claremont Serial Killer.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That was the most perfect one to me. Hello. And welcome to my favorite murder. The podcast, the true crime podcast that you've been listening to for a couple of years. That's right. I got almost five at this point. Ooh. Wow.

Five years. Just like the most. This is the longest I've ever had a job, for sure. This is going to be my second longest relationship, pretty soon. Nice. Yeah. I think we've put a lot of work into it. I think we've made it something special.

We really have. We didn't abandon it. No. And we wanted to at times. We didn't want to. Ooh. It got like year two and a half got messy. It was very difficult to do.

Hey, listen, all that sounds stupid now in the pandemic. Right. Doesn't that sound like the dumbest fucking shit in the world? Absolutely. Like nothing matters. Be nostalgic for old problems you used to have that used to take up your whole life. And now you would kill for those to be your whole life problems. Oh, man.

Yeah. Jesus. And then the little things too that you miss about your normal life. I miss eyeliner. I miss liquid eyeliner and putting it on and lipstick. For a reason. Yeah. Yeah.

And like any of that stuff. Yes. Any kind of plan to meet another human being and look them in the face. Excitement. Uh-huh. Wonder. Absolutely just a deep, profound respect for your fellow man across the restaurant table from you.

Well, when this is over, knock wood, we're all going to be different and better, right? Better people. We're going to appreciate life more. Yes. We're going to live in a moment instead of having future panic and past panic. There's just no point. We're all on a clock. We got it.

We got to maximize these moments while we can. Hopefully we're all listening during this time, taking time to work on ourselves, listening to a shit ton of self-help podcasts. Oh, I am Georgia. You should see the ab workout. Oh, I'm not doing that. It is crazy. How's that trampoline going behind you?

It looks like a move. It's on its back like a beetle. It does look like a dead bug. I tried to roll it out. The scope of my Zoom and I hate to brag to everybody, but my Zoom picks up the end to the higher room. I don't know why. The width of it is just, it's just not tight.

It's not a tight shot. So I can't hide my, the trampoline I used four times and really thought I was onto something. And then what usually happens, we could track this. Usually it's that someone comes over and I want to hide all my shit and make it look like I'm much cleaner and tidier than I actually am. And then things get put away and they never come back out. Okay. So it's not there in front of you.

You're just not going to use it. Yes. I like that too. I get that. Yeah. We'll work on it. We'll do it. We'll work on it.

It's like it's almost Halloween, which everyone knows is a great time to refocus your energies onto. Perfect time to reset all the candy in your systems, your brand new candies. I've already overdone it on candy in a way that was like, I never want to buy. We got a bunch of the bags that have like two good candies and like two bad ones. You got to pay the price. But they never have four good ones, so you can just buy one. Karen, I just realized, fuck the candy talk.

Did you change the haunted chair? Yeah. Well, Stephen made me. I mean, ask me very politely too. Oh my God, Karen, this whole time you've been sitting in this chair that sounds haunted when you move, the creaking like boards of the basement, haunting. I mean, again, it is a sensitivity I have with me and chairs, but I will say this. Those are jury chairs from downtown Los Angeles in like the 20s or 30s.

How'd you get that? They were, I found them in some store in Silver Lake, but yeah, basically in like 19 or 2001 or 2002. That's cool. So they are haunted. You can actually, the farts of jurors from way back when. Yeah, old, a bunch of, you know, middle-aged men that look like Ernest Borg-9 were the people that were on trials back then.

Guilty. We saw the play. Guilty. We know. So now I have this whisper silent folding chair that my friend Karen Anderson gave me as a housewarming present. That's my favorite, like, it's all gold. Yeah, I like it.

You've seen it, right? Yeah, it's gorgeous. It looks like wood, but it's a padded seat. It's gorgeous. I was in my grandma's card table room. Exactly. You know. Exactly.

When the extra ladies came over to play cards, she'd have a chair to bring out, hold on. And by that, you mean the crazy ladies? The ones that were a little bit extra? Ugh, the best. Oh my God, that's my favorite when I was a kid and I'd stay with her for the summer and she'd take me to the card games at her friend's house and they'd all give me like all the candy. Yeah.

Look at all their tchachkies and it was just so much fun. Yep. Candy. Yeah, it would warm up because it would be very warm. Yeah, and it'd smell like a grandma, which I love. Yeah. Everybody called you honey. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I know. Grandma energy. We could really do for some grandma energy in the world right now. Big grandma energy is what we need. You know what I saw? Which is the kind of the corniest of all social media things, but my very favorite, which is every year, the holidays, the tweet goes around of the boy that got the text from the lady

that said, be here, whatever, and then he said, well, I'm not your grandson, but can I have a plate? And she said, of course, that's what grandmas do. You know, they're still doing it and that boy is now married. Love them. He's married now with the whole family. He's married now with this gorgeous girl. What am I going to do now about COVID?

They still, well, he said they're still going this year. They can have a Zoom or maybe like, yeah, an outdoor social distance Christmas. It was never a big group at that family. But that it really is. My sister and I were talking about it. It's such a feel good, like, you know, deep down, maybe we can all get a long type of thing because that lady came at that thing with such energy like, of course you can just like, those are the grandmas I know.

Treat yourself like a grandma who's nice. Like if you have a country grandma, don't treat yourself like that. But yeah, treat yourself like you imagine a grandma is supposed to be. Yeah, if there were many grandparents and people of your who were very damaged by coming up in this like the American maker break, kind of like you're on your own from H5 bullshit that abuses the standard and shut up about your feelings and I'll roll you're gonna roll your own cigarettes because we don't have the money for free rolled cigarettes at five or whatever.

Yeah. You don't get any candy and you'll like it. That whole mentality. There's some people that, yeah, they, it's just like in, in our family, we say there's the good Irish and the bad Irish. You can either be like the fun, drinky Irish with your arm around people like telling a story and get in here, or you can be like those, the crazy weird ones that are like secret drinkers and schizophrenic and all the crazy shit.

Don't be, don't be the great, be the good eye. That's another one. Be the good Irish, not the crazy Irish. Speaking of Irish, are you watching Fargo? I think I'm caught up. Yes. I think I'm now caught up. Can I say I'm kind of, I know this is the whole point of Fargo, but I'm kind of over

the gangster stuff. I just want to watch Jesse Buckley, the redheaded nurse, live her fucking life. Like that's all I am fascinated by that character. I just want to watch that part of it with the neighbors. Her angel of death life, where she's just doing whatever she wants. And the way she talks, and the way she fucked Jason Schwarzman, I was just like, damn girl. Like she, and then when, when, when she found her closet of, I can't say, oh wait, never mind shit.

Spoiler. Spoilers. I just love that. It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. The gangster stuff, I'm just like, how could you guys just get along and you can do crime together?

I know. I know. But it's, yeah, you're right, because it's a variation on the theme. So it's always kind of the same thing. But you're right. When she first, I mean spoilers, but these ones are old, but it's like that first time she basically snuffed out a page and you're just like, wait, what the fuck? Like we were, I thought we were getting set up to think she was Florence Nightingale.

Totally. Totally. It's so genius. And the way she's, it's fascinating. Manipulates like the hospital, the head of the hospital and the way, oh, I love it. It's the only part of like, it's pretty, it's pretty great. What else are you watching? Oh, yeah.

I watched American murder and yeah, it's the Shanann Watts is that, is it Shanann, Shanann. Yeah. Shanann Watts and their two daughters murder is dark. That podcast cold about that case in Utah, where it's just, there's no redeeming, teeny tiny bit of anything. No. It's just horrendous. It's just confounding.

And you're watching it on a body cam, which you go, hey, hey, body cams would be the perfect idea if we didn't let the police control them because you are there. But then my thing was, I went through that and then I went, oh, I don't want to ever do that again. I don't want to sit there with the police as they begin investigating this man pretending to be upset because his wife is missing and you know, he's guilty. It's such, it's, you know what it is? It's like, hey, everybody's on this true crime train in their own different compartment in

their own different way and everybody gets what they get out of it. I get off there. I don't want to go that far and I don't want to get that far in, especially when the story is so unbelievably tragic. And yeah, like you're saying Stark, he lied until that female cop was like, so you're comfortable letting the public believe that your wife killed your guy. Yes. And he was like, absolutely.

Like, like he tried, he kept trying and it was like, oh my God, a monster. He's a monster and it doesn't, and it's just impossible to wrap your fucking head around. What about the part? So tons of spoilers, guys, obviously, but what about that part, right? It's an American murder, something about next door, family next door or something. Yeah, a family next door. But there was the part where the cop was in the neighbor's house and then the guy and the husband leaves and then he's like, he never acts like this.

That neighbor was onto it and just like spilling it the second that guy walked out. It was fascinating. He knew. I mean, and it wasn't even like, yeah, he's not acting normal because his wife's missing. He was like, that's not, there's something fishy going on. It wasn't immediate. Yeah. It was, but, but again, like you're saying, it's just knowing where it's going.

And then it's just like, oh, this feels, it's, I would say this, you can still be a fan of true crime and all that stuff and dip out for a little while when, when reality is hard enough already. Yes. You know what I mean? Check your, check the things that are making you feel okay because that one, I afterwards I was like, nope, not doing that. No, I didn't.

I didn't like it. I've been watching Saxon Dale to get my brain out of that realm of parable, you know who I'm in love with on Saxon Dale is his assistant. Oh my God. The best character. I love him. I want to spend personal time with him. He's so good.

The personality of a guy that stands next to the fucking Saxon Dale and listen to his bullshit and be like, cool. All right. Oh my God. It's just such a beautiful nuanced show. It's Steve Coogan who like anything he does, just watch everything he's ever done. He's the best. It's what is not BBC probably or I don't know what we're watching it on.

I think we're doing like, maybe it's even Saxon Dale. I bet you that's a Brit box or an acorn or some kind of specialty. It's the ITD you got to search for, but it's just like you got to care absurd and lovely and everything. So his neighbor, this is if you are like me in a, what's it called, a Brita file. Angle. Angle. Angle file.

Jesus. That's the Brita files that you love Brita filters and fresh water. Oh my God. I do. My water tastes so clean. I'm such a Brita file. Obviously I'm a huge one since I don't know the name of it. So clearly I'm number one.

The number one Stan. Well, it's like when the hipsters don't call themselves hipsters, you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm so real. I'm just the realist anyhow. Saxon Dale's across the street neighbors, this British actor named Darren Boyd, who if you, he is in every hilarious, like those kinds of TV shows. He's the tall blonde kind of dorky guy that's constantly just. Yes.

That he's constantly basically being bullied by. Yeah. Saxon Dale. Oh, he's so funny. He's the charge of the neighborhood watch and he's trying to like check on stuff and then be a cool guy. Yeah. It's so good.

Yeah. That's such that's been helping us. It has a couple seasons too. Right. Yeah. Totally seasons. Totally seasons. When we watch that and after like the vow or Fargo, we put on Saxon Dale for like a pallet

cleanser. Yeah. Saxon Dale is hilarious. Good one. I have a, oh, I also, so wait, did you just say the vow? Yeah. I don't. I dipped out of the vow.

It's really slow. It's slow and it's kind of draws on, but it's, but the, but the stuff in it is still interesting. So I've stuck with it. Okay. It's just a little like one of those come on, like you could have done this in the half as many episodes, but yeah, make your money. I think I, I had to, uh, I, it, it started to feel like an acting class to me. It started to feel like when I used to have to take an acting class and I would just kind

of sit in the back and just be like, everybody seemed, everybody was like kind of just kind of overtly sexual and also on the verge of tears and like, you know what I mean? They're perfectly and, but, and like so, so volunteering first, like everyone was volunteering first and trying to act like a, you know, they were walking through honey or whatever the exercise was. And I was just always in the back like, what am I doing? Like, why do I even like this? So it has that tension of like those types of people that really need something.

That was them. They're like, they're thespians. They're not actors, Karen. They're thespians. Their artists is what they are. They're artists and they can cry on command. There's some, there's some footage of the chick, the chick who's like, because she was in fucking Battlestar Galactica or whatever the fuck, Smallsville or whatever.

She's like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Alison Mack. Yeah. It's, she seems insufferable. Insufferable. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's there. You know what it was? That was the, it was the scene between her and Keith or Neri when she first got taken to volleyball. Oh my God. It was so hardcore flirting with him in a way.

Oh my God. I don't just hug. I kiss. Ew. Something about that makes me want to leave my skin. I cannot withstand watching people flirt like that, like flirt poorly. It was like, it was comfortable for everyone involved, except for that. And bizarre.

Bizarre. So bizarre. What were they like? She was just like, she knew, it's like she went in there knowing he, that's the first time they met. She knew he was the leader and she was like, I'm going to fucking, this is going to be my thing. And I'm going to make this guy fall in love with me.

And here's how it's fucking done. And I'm an actor. What? Hold my jacket. Exactly. Hold my jacket. Well, I go make this cult leader fall in love with me. I'm going to flirt with someone who has the sexuality of an old raggedy envy doll.

You know what I love is me pads and 4am volleyball. What's up? Here it is. And a very, very high, lilting voice. Oh my God. That's what I'm looking for. Oh, he's so gross. Also, honestly, because you know they filmed everything, I just, and maybe it's just like

because they're trying to tell this other story, but would, would it kill them just to explain what the point of any of those groups were? Right. Like what you actually got, what the, you know, here's the class we took, it's this, it said this, we were working on EMs to get us here. I do not understand how they glued this fucking ship together. It doesn't make sense to me. Because they keep saying like to use for other job, our job and to get in our life, but it

doesn't seem like they have other jobs or other lives, they're just sitting. And then there's like not that many people there either. So it's like, wouldn't you look around at this thing that's life changing supposedly and be like, well, why are there only 11 people here though? Yeah. And it's like the same 11. It's like, like me going to a small Catholic school for, for all junior high and high school. We're just like these people again.

Yeah. I can't do it anymore. Fuck. And it's, it's very, yeah, you're right. A lot of those people were like, I took the class, now I'm the teacher. It's like that doesn't, that doesn't right there. If it's that accessible that now you're the teacher, how brilliant and genius can this program be?

Right. Immediately teaching it. I want, I want there to be decades of work before someone come and come a teacher of whatever the fuck I'm learning. Hell yeah. You in my world, you would have to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. You would have to. Like it would be scenes from the golden child.

You'd have to go into a cave and jump from pole to pole and then drink the water, make the fire go out. Not that I sat through two years of class and wrote down my fucking schedule every day and asked if I was allowed to eat certain foods. Master. Master. No fucking Vanguard. I refuse.

Also, I think it's this, if I, if it were up to me to be like right now in sixth grade, we're going to start this, a program where we just start telling kids how to avoid getting sucked into cults. Just a general, like a step by step, almost like a dare class that you would put in, but now we're just doing it for cults because it seems to be coming up a lot now. So when you have to give people evident proof, what's it called? Collateral. Collateral for anything, get out before the collateral.

Yeah. Don't give them out if you want, but don't, don't give them out as collateral. No. Don't get involved with anything that has the word collateral, including the Tom Cruise movie. Don't, I'm saying stay away. And then if dieting has something to do with your spiritual program, it doesn't, you guys. It doesn't.

Oh my God. Speaking of cults, I have a book that I'm listening to that I fucking love that I want to tell you about. So it's, it's by this, it's a memoir, and it's by this guy named Miquel Jolette, J-O-L-L-E. Oh yeah. I follow him on Twitter. Yeah. So he's the, he's the singer of the airborne toxic event and he wrote a memoir and you're

like, okay, beautiful man who's in a band who's super cool. What's your fucking memoir? And then I started listening to it and it starts as him as a kid, like five years old and it starts as his mother, uh, sneaks him out of the cult that they're in and then goes from there. Wait. Now was he in a different one or was he in Synanon? Yes.

He was in Synanon. Uh-huh. Yes. That's the one that is out in, it's in Sonoma County. That's right. That's like out near where I grew up. Yeah. Yeah.

So I want to listen to that. It's great. And it's just, and then it goes from there and their lives and the mom and how she kind of still has that mentality and it's such a fucking good book and the, and he reads it obviously in the audiobook. I love it. It's great. It adds something to it.

Say the title. It's called, oh, I didn't even say the fucking title, did I? It's called Hollywood Park. Hollywood Park by Miquel Gillette. Yeah. It's great. It's great. It's all eight, very eighties too.

It's just so good. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Love a cult story. Sure. Love a true story. Love a memoir.

Uh-huh. Love a cult. Totally. And how did you get like, you had a fucked up childhood. How did you get so successful? You know, like people like to hear that as well. Yeah. Because that's the key.

Yeah. Fucked up. Being fucked up is the key to getting somewhere. Hey, want to be an interesting person? Have a really fucked up child. Do you want to have ambition burn inside you in a way that you cannot explain? Oh, well then have kind of a fucked up child. And run and run from yourself and constantly try to achieve.

That's right. Do it. Yes. That's the fuel. Yes. You're not fucked up. You're ready to go. Right.

Or work against yourself for so many years by pouring the drugs and alcohol on top of it because you just are too overwhelmed by that creativity and then suddenly one day you figure it all fucking out and you become the successful person, whatever that means to you. That's right. But before that happens, you have to stew in your own juices for quite some time. That's right. And really, really feel fucked up.

And they smell those juices. Oh, I can smell them from here. That's right. So I have been listening to, and my go to these days is, and I've already plugged this podcast sexy, unique podcast, it's Laura, I always am afraid I'm saying her last name on Shane Halls, I believe, and my friend, Carrie O'Donnell, they just started covering their recapping season one of Rock of Love. Oh my God.

The Bret Michaels Dating Show on VH1. We started that at the very beginning of quarantine. Yeah. That show. Holy shit. Epic. It is so... Yeah.

They're so... The two of them talking about it is so hilarious. It's again, my favorite when I don't have to actually suffer through reality TV, but I can hear about it. I would like that. Yeah. We literally tried 10 minutes in the beginning. Let's try this again and couldn't watch it.

It's just so uncomfortable, but I'd listen to that. Hearing people do impressions of the people and the things that they said. Yeah. It's a totally different... Totally different thing. So yeah, if you like reality TV or like recap shows or whatever, those guys, and also I belong to their Patreon, so I get bonus episodes. Just the stuff they talk about in between just processing the life that we're going

through right now. It's very helpful to me. I listen to them a lot in the morning. That's nice. It's like my... They're my podcast friends. Sure. Yeah.

Wait, you have other podcast friends besides me? They're the ones that they don't know. I'm their podcast friend. You're my literal... Right. Got it. Should we do some exactly right catch up? Let's do it.

Because we have a big announcement in a minute. But first... Oh yeah. Good one. Tease it up. Tease it up. But first, we want to tell you that we have some merch going on right now. So the design, this is Terrible Keep Going, was so awesome and you guys loved it so much

that we put out tank tops. They're on the website now and then we also have mug. So it says this is Terrible Keep Going, which is like so perfect for these days in so many ways. It's very timely and yet eternal. I think you buy this shirt and it pays off in the meantime and then of course the long run is entirely covered. I don't know if you can say that about just any shirt or really any shirt at all, but

this one. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Maybe a nice Henley. In the network, moving over to Network News, this podcast will kill you, just release their season finale, season three finale on Tuesday and they're talking all about birth control.

Very timely and topical. Yeah. Or not. That sounds fucking awesome. I want to. Yeah. Let those ladies walk you through some birth control info. Yeah.

And then also the fall line is they interviewed Monica Quezon from CUE Missing Person Center about their missing person search effort. So that's just a really interesting thing for people who are into true crime and into missing person cases. I think you'll like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

Okay. Big announcement. It's big announcement time now. Oh my God. We have been talking about waiting for this announcement for so long that it's just surreal that it's finally here. I can't. It's so.

It's a relief that it's finally here. It feels so good. You guys, we are about to announce two new podcasts that are coming to exactly right. This first one is a podcast that's going to be hosted by our friends Millie DeCerico and Danielle Henderson. Two hilarious and very talented and very brilliant ladies. Millie is the programmer on Turner Classic Movies and she has been for the past like I think 17 years.

Danielle Henderson is a TV writer. She's hosted a bunch of stuff. You also might know her because she invented the feminist Ryan Gosling meme that is one of the most genius things I've ever seen. So you might know her from that as well. The two of them have gotten together, Millie and Danielle, and they have made a podcast called I Saw What You Did. And it's basically a movie podcast where the two of them every week, they basically quote

unquote program a double feature for you. They pick two movies. It's always a theme. So it'll be like Neighborhood Creeps or Great 70s Apartments or Hysterical Women who have every right to be hysterical. And basically the two of them will watch the movie and break it down and talk about it. Millie being kind of the film expert and Danielle being a film fan and just a person that likes to watch movies.

So it's really hilarious, you know, they're women of color. It's just a it's just a really cool new way, a new discussion on watching movies and we're super, super excited to be hosting it. I think it's going to be groundbreaking in some ways, you know, and it premieres on November 10th. So keep an eye out for it. Okay. And then the second podcast that we're going to announce today is called 10 Fold More Wicked.

We're so freaking excited about this. Oh my God. It's hosted by author and journalist Kate Winkler Dawson. So each season, Kate's going to blend her incredible storytelling skills and her investigative journalism skills to present a new gruesome or spooky crime from the past, like pre 1930s, which is such a cool time period. Later seasons are going to touch on how crimes led to the insanity defense and criminal trials or highlight why body cadavres are so important in med school and like how that happened.

So it's going to be fricking awesome, obviously, you know, the fact that she's both an investigative journalist and a storyteller is just going to make for an incredible podcast. Yeah. If you have read any of her books, Kate Dawson, she is an unbelievable crime historian and she's written a, I've read all of her books just from, from knowing her from working. Yeah. With her and it's, she's such a talented storyteller and her doing a podcast. I mean, it is, she does amazing work.

And so that comes out 10 Fold More Wicked on November 23rd and I saw what you did on November 10th. Oh my God. We have two new podcasts on the network. Two new podcasts. You guys were so stoked. We're a real boy now. And there's more to come.

There's, there's more to come on this slate, but those are the first two of, of a new bunch of new shows. So finally. We did, you know, I know we've waited so long. Yeah. You thought we were lying to you. We weren't lying to you. We weren't.

Don't fucking lie to you. Not about that. Not about that. Oh, sure. True. Right. Anything else you want to touch upon or, you know, feel or fondle upon? I mean, not really.

Cause there's, hasn't been that much going on except for it feels like there's a bunch going on. So there's a strange malaise, like a laziness that it is going hand in hand with procrastination or I just never feel like doing anything. Nope. Never ever. Why would you? It's the, it's nothing happens.

Yeah. That's it. It's rough. Yeah. Stay low. Here's my, my advice. If anyone wants it, stay low to the ground and cool to the touch. Stay out of direct sunlight, you know?

Like to try to keep all the shade shut, try to get pale because you might as well. Yeah. Yeah. Or at least say it's okay that I'm doing it. Oh yeah. Okay. You want to be like a cat vampire, low to the ground. Yeah.

Dark. You okay? I'm just saying last night for dinner, I did have a giant pretzel and there's no world where I should be ordering a giant pretzel and eating it. No, it's fine, I got a giant pretzel, but did you have anything else is the important thing. I did have some salad. Okay.

Then you're fine. Okay, but it was a giant. I'd be worried if you only, it doesn't matter. If you only had a giant pretzel, that would be worth it. I'm saying this pretzel could have fed a giant, the jolly green giant. It was so gigantic. Yeah. But we're working on it day by day.

That's right. We are. What else can we do? There's really no choice in the matter that you have. We don't have choice. No. No. Yeah.

Therapy, that's so important. Do that too. Do that. That's good. That's important. My mom texted me, I love you for the first time and it's first time she said it in months and months. Wow.

So that's a positive thing. That's very good. That's dark. Oh, yeah. Well, no, I'm just thinking, you know what I think it was, go ahead, sorry. Well, no, no. I'm just thinking with this swirl of how psychotic politics are getting, I think there's a lot of people who, if they could just get, like, touch a buzzer and just be out free

and clear, they would be. Oh. You know what? They're in so far. That's right. That's so funny that you equated it with that because I did too. I saw that she wrote, I love you and miss you because we're not really speaking. And I thought, oh man, I bet, I thought to myself, how on earth did she, in her Jewish

mind, make Proud Boys stand back and stand by okay? Yes. And in my mind, I'm like, she couldn't, I love you and miss you, is an opening of a door. Yes. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, HelloFresh has you covered. HelloFresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in

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Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry as the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges.

Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. I realized this week that I had a heavy hitter and once I got to page nine on my story and had more to talk about, I was like, listen, Karen, I'll go this week if you want and you go next week. How about it? And I was like, and I need a week to learn how to roller skate. So next week, that's right.

You can really seize your time as you will not do as I did not do. Having nine pages in a story, it just brought me so back to tour. Like I think I'm having a thing now where like now the memories of touring are so sweet and golden and wonderful and everyone I think of is like, remember that fucking hotel in Toronto that was, um, I think Japanese that it was unbelievable hotel. And I slept in the one I missed our fucking call time in because I was sick. Yeah. Yes.

It was gorgeous. That's right. It was unbelievable, but they're typing up my story and going to do the insert page number and being like nine, like where we would say to each other and you had said to me before, like, can, can you not do like the, a story that long where I'm like, I know I'm sorry. And you tried to cut it down, but like, what do you take out? Yeah.

You're like, I'm just trying to get the good story going, but it happens because then, you know, then I do stuff like show you old men with tomato plants and stuff like that. Which I'm like, don't take that out. Take something else out. Take out the horrible facts of humanity and what people do to each other. Old men with tomato pants. So this has become 11 pages with 16 font. Perfect.

It's in Georgia font, of course, because that's my thing. Georgia. Hey. So because this is an important story and maybe people haven't heard about it because it takes place in Australia. So I've been following this case for a couple of years now because it's been a cold case, which you know I'm obsessed with. It's been going on for over 20 years and I wanted to wait until there was a resolution,

which a couple of years ago, something happened. And this last month in September, finally, there's kind of been a resolution. Oh, wow. It's no longer a cold case. So it's like it's Perth's, so it takes place in Perth in Australia. It's kind of like their Golden State Killer or BTK where it just completely changed the area and how people live their lives and, you know, raise their children. It just, it shook everyone up.

We got yelled at by a lot of people when we were on tour in Australia for not going to Perth. 100%. There were people who drove from Perth. They were mad. They were like, look, it's a stop. You're supposed to go to Perth. No, you can't drive to Perth.

I don't know. Well, yeah, let me, I'll tell you all about it. This is the Claremont Serial Killer. Oh, wow. Oh, yes. Okay. Amazing. Yes.

You don't know how many times I said to Jay, please don't let Karen do the Claremont Serial Killer. I've been working on it. I've been working on it. Like I had docs and shit and I was like, don't let her do it. It's mine. You text him once a month, every month on the first. I was like, Jay, it's fine, it's hers, but don't fucking suggest it to her, please.

I promise you, I'm finally going to do it. I got information from watoday.com. There's an article by Heather McNeil, Nusa News by Angie Raphael, news.com.au by Candice Sutton. There's a Claremont, the trial podcast or a whole Claremont series podcast you can listen to. There's ABC, Australia, Andrea Mays and Seven News in Australia, an article by Duncan McNabb. There's so many great journalists that have been following this for decades and so there's

a lot to read about it. Let me tell you about Claremont. Perth is the capital of Western Australia and it has a population of almost 2 million people. It is the most isolated city in the world. Is it really? Yeah, which is why we didn't go there. And me saying driving, they would have had to have flown.

They would have driven through the Australian outback, like fucking kangaroos and shit and fucking brush land. I don't know. Fucking red dirt and kangaroos, bitch, are you ready? I'm so sure they hate me for saying that, but it's the most... But it's just that one part. Yeah, it's teeny tiny, it takes five hours to fly there. It's the most isolated city in the world.

It's got the Indian Ocean on one side and the Australian outback on the other. Jesus. It's really cool. If you zoom, if you look at it on a map and start zooming out, it's like, here's... It's like if Los Angeles was here, it's basically Los Angeles to Houston to get to Adelaide. So the next big city is Adelaide and it's a 30-hour drive. Okay, sorry. So that's how isolated it is.

Can I just say? What are you... Wait, what? What if you lived in Perth? This might be what I do when I retire, because you know I really, genuinely, really loved Australia in a very deep spiritual way. Yeah, I wrote... It's a beautiful fucking city and I wrote, there's a chance I might move there on November

4th, as a matter of fact. Definitely. Will they take us? I hope they take us. Will they take us? Because Canada won't take us anymore. Can someone speak to the mayor of Perth and... Please.

We're really fun at parties. I was just thinking it would be fun to move to a house that's right on the edge of the outback. So you're the place, the first place that the man dying of thirst crawls to out of the outback. If he does make it at all, he's knocking on your door first, just to be there for the stories. That's a good one.

So LA to Houston, basically. Its sister cities are Houston, as a matter of fact, and San Diego. So you can imagine. It's a beautiful place, some of the most expensive houses in Australia are in Perth. I think it's kind of like a secret, famous person place to go because Australians don't give a shit that you're, they're like, oh, there's a famous person who cares. Like that's kind of where they go to just live their lives. You know what they do, Australians, even if you're a famous person, they'll tell you

to throw a shrimp on the Barbie to your face. They don't give a shit. They're very casual people. There's a nation. So it's super isolated. And Claremont is a suburb of Perth. It's located on the north bank of the Swan River. It's really charming and upscale.

The main district of Claremont is known as an affluent local hub. So it has a bunch of cute boutiques. Like think about really Hills boutiques and restaurants and pubs and bars. And it's like the young nightlife scene, but it's, you know, upscale. So it's, it's kind of a lovely little place. It's safe. It's a unique community, Australian reporter Allison Fan describes it as the heart of the gold triangle of Western suburbs.

Basically, it's the kind of place where you don't expect anything bad to happen, of course. That is until the mid 90s within a span of 15 months when three young women mysteriously disappear right off the street. So 18, 18 year old Sarah Spears is the first to disappear. So she had moved to Perth after finishing high school nearby. She goes to secretarial school. She gets a job as a receptionist. Like all of these stories go, she's lovely.

She makes friends easily. She's close with her family. She's responsible. She's very comfortable in her new city life. She lives with her sister and her dad describes her as the type of person who met everyone with a glow and friends said she was just filled with laughter. On the night of January 27th, 1996, she's out with her friends visiting the clubs and she leaves Club Bayview at the center of Claremont at around 2 a.m. by herself at 206 a.m.

She calls a taxi from the public phone booth and there's a recording of her calling the taxi and she's seen waiting alone by three eyewitnesses who also mentioned seeing an unidentified car stopping where she's waiting. And then when the taxi arrives at 209 a.m., she's gone. She's not there. So by the next day, her disappearance automatically alarms friends and family who know she's responsible and reliable wouldn't just take off. So even though there was usually a waiting period for missing people to be taken seriously,

her friends and family kind of made it happen because they were so freaked out. So there's a massive public attention immediately. Her friends hand out missing posters all over Claremont and it becomes a major investigation because of her family and friends. They pass out 20,000 flyers, there's 2,000 posters all over Perth, 50 buses have her picture on them and missing persons flyer like you couldn't go anywhere and not see her face. So people knew about it immediately.

The task force is set up within 48 hours to look into her case but there's really no evidence like no one saw her disappear. And so the trail goes cold. So it was in January. So then we get to June, June 6, 1996, 23-year-old Jane Rimmer is with friends for a night out in Claremont in the same area. She's described as bubbly and funny, she's really genuine and she's really easy to get along with.

All of the pictures of these women are just, you'd be friends with all of them, you know. She is a living nanny and the two young children, she nannies adore her. She's friends with the mother, even though there's a big age difference, she's just a really easy to get along with person. And in fact, the mother had spoken to her, they talked on the phone for like four hours, a couple of days before and even discussed the disappearance of Sarah Spears. So Jane's friends tell the police that they had hit a couple of different night spots including Club Bayview where Sarah had last hung out.

And there's a long line at one of the clubs. So Jane's friends decide to take a taxi home but Jane wants to stay behind. CCTV had been installed in Claremont after Sarah had disappeared and it actually caught footage of Jane standing outside this club called the Continental at 12.04 a.m. So it's like busy, there's people hanging out outside and smoking and like lively. It's not like it's a desolate area. She seems like she's waiting for someone, like maybe a taxi, she's leaning on a pole, she's laughing.

The camera catches her talking to an unknown man, she's just laughing with him. It pans away and when it pans back, she's fucking gone. 55 days later and actually, sorry, that CCTV footage isn't released until 2008. What? Because they wanted to keep, I don't know, they wanted to keep things under wraps. They sent it to NASA to try to get more foot, more information and they couldn't and they just kept it under wraps, which is weird. So 55 days later on August 3rd, a family's out for the day in the bushland of Wellard,

about 25 miles south of Claremont. So the mother, she's looking at these, what are called death lilies. She sees the biggest one she's ever seen so she kind of walks through the brush to look at it and she feels something brushing the back of her leg. This feels like fate in a weird, creepy way. She turns to see what she was feeling and she sees a tiny foot sticking out of some brush and she had found the naked body of Jane hidden under some brush. Whoa.

Yeah. Yeah, what are the odds? That's crazy. Right? It's just creepy. It's sad. She's decomposed to confirm a cause of death, but an autopsy does show that she had a prominent injury on her neck that's consistent with a knife wound.

So it's reported to the media that a pot, okay, so then the same day on a road less than a mile from where the, where Jane's body was found, they, the investigators find a pocket knife and it had a telecom logo on it. So telecom, which I'm going to call, it turns into this company called Telstra. So I'm going to call it that from now on. So Telstra is Australia's largest telecommunications company, basically like AT&T or Verizon like phone lines, internet, they do all that shit. So the knife was issued as standard equipment to Telstra workers.

What the fuck is it doing out in the middle of nowhere? So several witnesses who live in the area tell detectives, detectives, they heard a woman screaming and shouting the night Jane went missing. I know. Like what? Call that what? One man says he heard a woman screaming, quote, leave me alone. Let me out of here and sees a car drive away in the direction of the spot where Jane's

body was found. Another couple closer to the crime scene. Remember blood curdling cries that stopped mid, mid scream. Oh, guys. What the fuck? I mean, do you call the police at that moment? They didn't call it in. No, I don't think so.

It was discovered after the, yeah. So you don't want to be an alarmist, but those sound like reasons to call the police. Mine is just to check it out. Right. Right. Yeah. Just to make sure you're right in not freaking out. Exactly.

Then it turns out the other night that Sarah Spears had gone missing, witnesses have also heard blood curdling screams less than five miles away in the Mossman Park area between 2 30 a.m. and 3 a.m., which were quote consistent with a female in distress, but remember Sarah hadn't been found. Her body hasn't been found, but it was in that area. So one of the witnesses who heard the screams said that when they looked in the direction of the screams, they saw a white or cream colored car that was parked on the wrong side of the street and the screams were heard only about 20 minutes after Sarah was last

spotted outside the club, seemingly waiting for a taxi. So after Jane Rimmer's body is found, Western Australian police launched what they call the macro task force to investigate the disappearance of both Jane and Sarah. And there's massive publicity in this city where women are normally relatively safe. And then I was thinking about like, well, why don't leave a bar alone and that sort of thing. But it seems like it was a bustling area that they were in and they have walked home a million fucking times.

And yeah, you think about walking home from bars in like Silver Lake is probably more dangerous than walking home from a bar in this area, right? And it's like, it's my it's I'm familiar. This is my neighborhood. Why would I feel unsafe in my neighborhood? You don't even consider and there's people that that's a bummer. The thing that is very sinister and upsetting to me is people being around people disappearing when there's the group of people around is very scary.

Definitely. And like, you know, because that means some they were targeted. They were targeted. And the person who took them has no fear too. Yeah. And then I was thinking about a plan. Yeah. When I'm drinking, I kind of like get giddy and I'm like, I'm just going to walk home

and listen to music and I feel I'm happier. And so I'm just like, I'm just going to walk, you know, it's just such a normal thing to do. Then nine months later, in the early morning hours of March 15, 1997, Sierra Glennon, a 27 year old from Mossman Park also disappeared from the Claremont area. Sierra was a lawyer and spoke fluent Japanese, so very smart. She had come home to Perth after a year of backpacking overseas. She came back to be a bridesmaid in her sister's wedding that was happening in a week and to

return to her job at a law firm like Sarah and Jane. She's out with friends and heading to the continental nightclub when she decides to make her way home. She kind of hadn't wanted to go out that night. She did anyway, so she leaves her friends early. So there's three men at a bus stop. They see Sierra walking south along Sterling Highway at around 12.30 a.m. And I don't think this is like a desolate highway.

I feel like it's almost like Wilshire Boulevard where it's just like a main street, you know? So they see her interacting with someone in a light colored vehicle that had stopped for her and then she disappeared. And so those witnesses, they become known as the Burger Boys. It's these three dudes, Troy Bond, Frank McElroy, and Brandon Gray. They're sitting together at a bus stop eating burgers and they had noticed a newer model, Holden Commodore station wagon, which looks like an 80s Volvo or Honda station wagon type of thing.

They see it pull up alongside a woman, but they didn't see her. They see her talking to the driver through the window, but they didn't continue to watch to see if she got in. Although another witness says he did see her get in the car, then she disappears. Sierra is described as a strong and spirit and courageous. And so her father tells reporters that his daughter is a fighter and she's going to fight whoever took her. But sadly, 19 days later on April 3rd, her semi-clothed body is found by a bush walker

who's out looking for marijuana. And having been, she had been discarded about 25 miles north of Claremont. And the cause of death is noted as being consistent with a neck injury. So we later find out that it looks like, you know, knife wounds to the neck. Same memo. Yeah. And they're also placed in the exact same way except mirror images with like their arm up and, you know, during the autopsy, it's discovered that Sierra had indeed fought back.

In fact, she had fought her killer so hard that one of her thumbnails is partially torn off and she has her attacker's DNA under her fingernails. Nice. Yes. But of course, it's too early, you know, it's 97. There's no real testing on DNA at that point. So after the disappearance of Jane Rimmer, the Western Australian police had set up the macro task force and to look into the two similar cases, they kind of knew automatically

that they're all related. And Sierra disappears as well. Police confirm that they're searching for a serial killer and the Western Australian government offers a $250,000 reward, which is the largest ever offered in the state at the time. Wow. They say the serial killer has a pervert victim profile, a young woman between 18 and 27 with small build, fair complexion, intoxicated and alone.

And it does seem that they, and I don't know if all of them, but some witnesses said that they did seem intoxicated, which is, you know, it's just like they're so targeted at that point. It's so awful. Yeah. Yeah. So this case becomes fucking huge. It grabs a ton of public attention.

It's basically like Ted Bundy level attention after the Florida Kai Omega murders, you know, the whole town is fucking terrified or the BTK, like basically that someone among us in our small community is committing these horrendous acts and people are terrified. So Detective Inspector Paul Ferguson leads the inquiry and he has more than 100 investigators on the case. There are several leads, but the strongest is the CCTV footage of Jane Rimmer and the unidentified man. It's sent to NASA, you know, there's nothing they can't enhance it in any way.

And it's released in 2008 because police feared that releasing it would have hindered the investigation. But it's like, maybe someone will recognize the way that person is standing or walking. You know, it's just who you never fucking know. Yeah. It makes me think though of those, it's when it happens in a place where it never happens, when it happens in a place where people always say it could never happen here, the investigation unless they call people in right away, which people are learning to do now.

But oftentimes it's that, it's that decision making. Yeah. People are surprised a lot about the investigation and it's partly because they kept so much secret, you know, and they kept so much to themselves that people didn't think they were actually doing anything. And in some cases, you know, maybe they weren't following through as well as they should have and maybe the public's help could have done something. But in others, it's just, you know, they were keeping everything really under wraps.

The man in the video is never identified. No evidence is found at Linkham and police also use a woman to reenact Sierra Glennon's night. So they basically dress her in what she was wearing exactly a woman who looks like her, has her walked the same path and go to the same bars, but nothing pans out. The initial focus of the investigation centers on the unidentified vehicles seen at the two locations. And also, so basically, I think what we're all thinking is taxi drivers.

It's got to be some. Yes. Some fake taxi drivers, some fake taxi, you know, I think everyone independent, some kind of independent cab thing of like, it's just me and my guy and this weird sign. Yeah. Totally. Which I've fucking gotten in those before. Like I've gotten in one of those, those like every time I'm at JFK in New York.

You just do it. It cares. It's New York. There's a million of them. You wave your arm out in the middle of the street and you get in whatever fucking car stops for you. You know, you just get in. You just want to get inside to get up the street.

That's right. You know, they're 10 minutes away from home. They're intoxicated. You, everyone gets in a taxi. It's normal. It's safe. It's the same thing to do is to get in a taxi. It's the smart, it's the smart choice to make also.

It's that idea of somebody sitting in a, in a car with some kind of like a dispatch radio or some kind of a spying on thing where if they hear that the call goes out, they go, but that's just like, this could, this could also be me listening to other podcasts about this, but that's my, that's what it makes. It leads me to think about that's a really interesting one. Wow. Um, like someone who got fired for, they couldn't be a cab driver anymore, right? Because they attacked some other young woman and so now they're far, oh, you're, you're

parallel. Okay. But you're not. Yeah. But you're the mayor. Oh fuck, Karen, why'd you ruin this for me? Okay. So taxi drivers, of course.

So thousands of taxi drivers licensed in Western Australia are fingerprinted and DNA tested, which was really expensive at the time. So they actually, the investigators were criticized for that as well. They find 78 drivers with significant criminal histories. And because of this, it doesn't lead them to the killer, but standards for eligibility for taxi drivers are raised. Good. Yeah.

Great. And these 78 drivers are delicensed and their stricter standards, um, apply to verify that decommission taxis are properly stripped of official insignia and equipment. Great. Oh, sorry. Can I just say this? Yeah. What, what we should be saying though about and whoever is in charge because this might

not be the police, but the fact that the one young woman went missing and they put up CCTV cameras the next day, that is how things should work. Definitely. You know what I mean? If something happens and while they're doing all this other stuff, it's like, now, what would have been different to make this better and like not so horrible cameras and then just getting it done. Yeah.

That's impressive. Totally. But they did that that quickly and that they then did this investigation like found, you know, all the while they were like, at least they had something going on that was positive. And getting the DNA tested, even though it's expensive and it's not normal at the time, they still did it. So they had it on hand in case in the future, something was able to match it, you know? Yeah.

So though the murders had stopped at this point over the years, the macro task force is met with both praise and criticism for the handling of the case. A lot of information is suppressed from the public. So one of the controversial tactics that macro use was sending questionnaires to over 110 persons of interest that included questions like, are you the killer? So yeah. Really? They also relied heavily on international experts.

They had a lie detector machine imported from another country. And this might be the most controversial of them all. One task force officer attempted to offer, sorry, one task force officer accepted an offer from convicted serial killer, David Burney, to insist on the investigation. So David Burney, he's from Perth as well. I think I did him. Or you did it? Yeah.

I did him episode 94. It's the Morehouse Murders. Remember there was that Hounds of Love movie that I talked about that had like portrayed it? It was creepy. And it was him and his wife kidnapping women and then burying them. Yeah. So that one was fucking dark.

And so they went to this monster in the same way, remember when Ted Bundy was like offering to help them solve shit and you're like, sit down, motherfucker. Well, and yeah. And what can they offer? What can they, what can he offer to help? You know, thoughts, thoughts and feelings, I don't know. They have nothing to do in jail. But unless they know the person or they know the area or they know that that would be a

different thing. But was this guy just like, here's my theories. Yeah. Here's how this person probably works. Here's what his mind is like. Here's what kind of person he is. Here's what, you know, but which if they already have a profile of this person, then they don't really need that guy.

They have actually professional people doing it, not a fucking serial killer. Yeah. It's not, this isn't Silence of the Lambs and you're not Dr. Hannibal Lecter that actually was an expert in this before he, right? And knew some people, the killer too. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So. Good point. Yes. Right? That's right. He was a patient. Yeah.

He was the, he was the boyfriend of a patient. That's right. How dare you scold me? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm all right. Well, you're right. No, you're, you're a hundred percent right.

What was the patient's name? They went in his garage and it was so creepy. I know. Not Bob. Was it Bob? The fake name? Bob. Yes.

That's Hannibal. No. Bob was the name of. The fake name of the. The patient. Boyfriend. Buffalo Bill was the boyfriend. Yeah.

So that's Bob. Cause he gave a fake name and then the boyfriend's name, who's the patient? Stephen? Stephen? Anything for us? Do we say that exactly? That character's not listed on Wikipedia. I have to run type.

Oh. Well, that's bullshit. Hold on a second because. Thank you for being on. He says it. He says it in the scene before she goes to yourself, yourself storage. Look inside yourself storage. Maybe take a bunch of that out.

Yeah. I think so. Not all of it. Not all of it. Classic. Speaking of profile, due to the nature of the killings, experts suggest that the Claremont killer was probably a single white male 25 to 35 lived in the area, appear trustworthy, organized, social, and probably well educated.

Detective Dan, Detective Dan Capworn replaces Ferguson as the case leader and finds the first suspect in the killings, a man named Lance Williams. So Lance Williams is a 41 year old public servant. He lives with his parents at Cotteslow, which is close to the hotel where both Spears and Rimmer had spent some of their evening on the night they disappeared. But it seems like his biggest fault is that he seems to become obsessed with the case, you know, which is always a red fucking flag. He even occasionally drives around Claremont late at night to conduct his own mini investigation

into the murders, he says. He even offers women, women rides home, he says, because he's worried about them. So one time he circles the area more than 30 times. And of course, this raises red flags for the investigators and they have a young female officer dress up for the night for a night out and act as bait. And he does offer the undercover officer a lift and he's immediately arrested. So on February 5th, 1998, he's questioned for like 12 to 17 hours, it seems, and then released.

And he remains the chief suspect for the most of the next decade and is placed under intense scrutiny with police. They openly follow him and to and from work every day for years. His family home is raided a few times, listening devices are installed in his office. One of one, one which once crashed through the ceiling onto his desk. Because they were the cops are spying on him trying to find out if he was the guy. Yep. And so in his office, they think he's going to admit to it somehow.

And so they put a recording device in there and it fucking was too heavy and fell through the ceiling onto his desk. Oh my God. He maintains his innocence. There's his innocence during the six different interviews he has with police, but the public finds out his identity. So they also fucking go after him as well. Of course.

The thing is, he wasn't lying. He was obsessed with the case and he did want to make sure women got home safe. He's finally declared no longer a person of interest in 2009. Oh, wow. Uh-huh. He didn't fucking do it. And detective. Wow.

He's a weirdo, but he didn't do it. Detective Caporn. And we're all weirdos like he is. Arties. Exactly. Yeah. But I think the difference. That difference of, and it almost feels like there's a naivety to it of going and offering

people rights home puts you squarely in an area you should not be in if you're a dude. Well, they were right to suspect him and interview him and keep an eye and keep him in as a suspect if they couldn't rule him out. And Detective Caporn is criticized for having tunnel vision when it came to him as a suspect and just focusing on him. And Lance William dies in 2018 of cancer at 61 years old. So all right. Well, it turns out that the reason Lance was no longer a person of interest in 2009 is

because that year forensic scientists are finally able to properly test the DNA that had been found under Sierra Glennon's fingernails and they recover an unknown males DNA profile. And I mean, they went through so much they don't get into about how they were able to extract DNA. And it's these incredible scientists who painstakingly like fucking made sure that they really wanted to solve this case. So when they compared that DNA to the DNA of other sexual assault cases in the area, they matched another unknown males DNA from an unsolved abduction and rape that had occurred

in 1995. And it was a year before the string of murders began. So in that case, a 17 year old girl is walking home after a night out in the same Claremont venue from the same Claremont venue where Sarah Spears would later leave a year later. And she had been grabbed from behind bound and gagged and then put into a van and she was driven to a cemetery. She's fucking dragged through the dark. She's raped twice, this brutal rape the whole time.

She's like thinking she's going to die. She purposely doesn't look at him in the face thinking maybe that'll give her a chance to live if she doesn't see his face. And amazingly, he leaves her alive but obviously very fucking wounded and it's so awful. So she survives the assault. She goes straight to a nearby hospital where her rapist DNA is recovered. And they're also able to find fibers from this case that are also on Jane and Ciara which are rare microscopic blue polyester fibers as well as fibers that match what

would have been in a holding Commodore station wagon. Oh, right. But again, it doesn't lead to a suspect. So they have a way to match all these cases and like maybe they'll get more, you know, they have more information but they still don't have a person that, you know, it's all unknown male DNA. So it doesn't lead to a suspect nor does the report by a security guard who saw a Telstra van leaving the area when the 17-year-old girl had been raped at around 4 a.m.

Detectives do request a list of Telstra employees. Remember that knife that was found at the crime scene? Yeah. Who were assigned vans but that doesn't lead them anywhere either. They check it and can't find anyone of interest. So years go by until investigators decide to go through old evidence boxes from other similar crimes in the nearby area and test those for DNA. So that leads to an evidence box that had just been hanging out from an unsolved 1988

Huntington-Dale sexual assault case. So in 1988, there's a series of prowler incidents in the Huntington-Dale area which is about 30 minutes from Claremont and they were dubbed the Huntington-Prowler. So there are reports of women's intimates being stolen from clothes lines as well as a peeping tom and someone trying to break into houses. So residents claim to have seen a figure wearing 90s, women's 90s, dressing gowns and on one occasion a pair of women's underpants over his head. So he, you know, it's kind of like Golden State Killer where he's just like...

He steals it and then he puts it on in some way? Yeah. And seems like he wants people to see him in it almost. Oh, like that when he leaves, he runs out and that's what he's got on his head or wherever. Yeah. Wow. Something like that. And so then in February of 1988, an unidentified man breaks into a home and attempts to sexually

assault a sleeping 18-year-old girl, but she's able to fight him off and that attacker runs off and leaves behind. He had been wearing a silk kimono that seems like he had taken off a clothesline and that's left behind and that has a semen stain on it. So in that evidence box, they find that, it sits in the evidence box for 28 years until finally they're able to test the DNA on it and it matches the other unknown male DNA from all those cases. But still, they don't know who the Huntingdale Prowler was, so they still just have a connection

with all the cases but no identity of a killer. But man, so insane, this net is widening of what this guy has been doing and where he's been doing it. And it's got to feel like you're so close, you're so close, you find one more case that matches and you're like, well, we got to find it this, you know, but it's still, it's got to be so frustrating. Yeah. So what finally ties it all together or finally leads to what ties it all together isn't

DNA, but fingerprints. So during a separate Huntington Prowler break-in, the attacker had left behind his fingerprints and palm print on a sliding door and those prints are finally run through the system when they're looking through old evidence boxes and a match is found. So it's found to this case where there is a known attacker. So it's in a recent interview with 60 Minutes, a woman named Wendy Davis, she's now in her 20s. She was a mother of three and a social worker in 1990.

And she, oh my God, it's just such a heart-wrenching moving interview. This woman is incredible. She was a social worker working at her desk at Hollywood Hospital about 30 minutes from Huntington Dale in 1990 when a man comes into her office and asks if he can use the restroom. That's right by her desk. And she glances at the man and like waves him in to use the bathroom, like go ahead, I'm not thinking much of it since the man is wearing a uniform of the telecommunications company that's working on the hospital's phone lines that week.

So she allows him to use the bathroom without much thought, but pretty quickly he comes out, grabs her from behind, puts a rag over her mouth and fucking yanks her out of her chair and starts pulling her into the bathroom and she's like, I don't want to die. She's like, I freaked out, I don't want to die, she starts fucking fighting back. I mean, she tells this whole story in the 60 minutes. I think it's an Australian one, so you have to find it online, but she starts kicking and fighting. She's able to turn herself around and starts fucking wailing on his shins with her fucking

high heels. And so he stops and she says, just as suddenly as the attack started, it stops. And she says, the man seems to come out of a trance almost and starts to apologize. And he's held down until police arrive. And on him, they find cable ties in his pocket. And the man is a 21-year-old Telstra employee named Bradley Robert Edwards. And somehow he is only charged with common assault. It's called.

So and they say in the 60 minutes that you can get a charge of common assault by yelling a curse word across the street at someone. It's just, they don't acknowledge the sexual motivation of the attack. It's not attempted rape or attempted kidnapping or her free will being attack. It's none of that. He only gets two years probation. He doesn't even get fired from his fucking job at Telstra. Right.

Oh, Jesus. Despite attacking a woman on the job, he does. On the job. On the job. Instead, a supervisor goes to speak with the victim and tries to assure her that Edwards is a good kid who's just under a ton of stress. Ew. No.

So. Yeah. So. Okay. Finally, though, this leads to the killer. In December, 2016, the Prince from the Huntingdale Prowler incident are tested and they match the Prince to the Hollywood Hospital case belonging to Bradley Robert Edwards. So they finally have a suspect, but they still need his DNA to match the DNA of the unknown

killer. So all right. Who's this? Who is this asshole? Well, it turns out that he's still working for Telstra. He had enjoyed a good career pay raises, you know, all this shit moved up in ranks with the company. He's 46 years old.

He's tall and like a large, well built man with dark hair. He looks like a normal dad. This fucking piece of shit. He's got like cropped hair, clean cut polo shirts. He wouldn't think twice. Yeah. He's because he's in, he's hiding right plain sight. He's totally unassuming.

They don't look like monsters. The monsters don't look like monsters. He's an unassuming dude. He had been married twice. He has a stepdaughter, although he and his second wife were having issues. And on the weekends for years, he had worked for like athletic clubs, the Belmont Little Athletics Clubs were like, you know, like for us to be AYSO, I think we're just like kids playing sports.

Sure. He had been on the committee as a records officer. And by 2007, he had become the club's president. So he's not, it's not some creep in the shadows. He's fucking out there living a standup life. John Wayne Gacy style. Exactly. And he becomes the club's president.

There's even pictures of him in the newspaper receiving an award and stuff. Wow. And it's more of the usual unassuming. Everyone couldn't believe it. He helped his neighbors with computer, like, you know, the usual, the usual. We got an email from a listener who wrote in about him. And then so she was like, she was friends with the family. And so as a kid, she says, quote, he was always really nice and charming.

And the things that sticks out to me the most is he was also one of the most sympathetic people I've ever met in my life. So he used, he used to drive this little girl and another little girl home every day. And she said, because of my religious background, I'm not supposed to eat beef, but I love it. So when he used to pick me up, he used to get me McDonald's cheeseburgers. It's so spine-chilling to me that a serial killer bought me food and I ate it when I was alone in the car with him. And that's from the swigata.

Wow. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. She like got driven around by a serial killer. That's nice and charming. Yeah. Sympathetic.

Yes. Yeah. So a surveillance operation begins and with days, detectives grab a sprite bottle that Edwards had thrown away at a movie theater where he watched a movie with his stepdaughter. And when the bottle's tested, it's a match. And so finally after 20 years with all the evidence being tied together because the DNA found under Sierra Glen and fingernails because she fucking fought back, it's all tied together and the Claremont serial killer is finally caught.

Wow. But you think about this, the common assault charge doesn't get fired from his job. Maybe if things had been different, some of these cases wouldn't even have happened. If he had been treated like the sexual predator. Yeah, if someone didn't go in and fight for his fucking right, his right to assault women and because he was stressed out, that should just be ignored. Yeah. Hey, guess what?

Sorry. Cause I'm sure that person heartily regrets even being involved in that, but that was a massive, that was a mistake built on misogyny. Totally. That was a mistake built on nothing can happen to the boys and the girls just complain a lot and that's fucking bullshit and crazy. Yeah. That person should be, I mean, I can't imagine living with myself after that and then.

No, that's terrible. I'm sure they, I mean, and it's so sad because in this interview, this woman feels all the guilt. You know, right? The woman who was attacked is like, I should have done more, which like they, they didn't even take you seriously. You couldn't have done more. You were the victim.

You weren't supposed to be fighting for your, and also, no, exactly. It wasn't her job to fight for that or solve the case or do it correctly. It wasn't her job, but on top of that, the fact that that happened to her and that she did survive and fought so hard is the reason they ultimately were able to find that guy and solve that case. That's right. So she did more than she, she did everything. Yeah.

She's foundational. That's right. She's the fucking hero in her story. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. So when his home is raided, police discover allegedly all kinds of like twisted stuff, kind of like the BTK of like homemade sex toys and women's underwear with holes cut

out, violent erotica stories that are like about the abduction and women and porn depicting rape and torture. Just really sadistic, you know, stuff that this mild mannered person wouldn't, we wouldn't think they have it in their, in their house. It's brought in for questioning again, mild mannered, he's calm, he acts surprised and confused about bring bought, bring bought in and speaks openly with the investigators for 12 hours and he politely tells them repeatedly that he has no knowledge of the killings and says he is quote, 120% positive that he had no involvement in the murders or the sex or

the sexual assaults. I don't think. Okay. Yeah. The phrasing of that, I'm 120% positive I'm not involved. Yeah. Let, because there's a world where you could maybe not be sure. Yeah.

Like you, you either know you are or you're not involved at all. Right. Right. There's no, the assuredness that I'm really sure I didn't do anything is basically giving away that you don't know that your brain is a mystery to you and you don't know what, right? Like what you're doing. If an innocent person would say, I didn't do that, that I am not the person who did

that. I promise I didn't do it. I'm not sure positive I didn't do it. I don't know. Yeah. I'm positive I'm not involved. Right. Oh.

Okay. Yeah. As opposed to what you're secretly keeping in your head of that you are absolutely involved. It's like giving the, the ant, giving the opposite answer to the secret in your head gives it away. Yeah. But finally DNA is tested.

Positive I'm not involved. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. Try that. You're next time you're lying. Everyone. Finally, as DNA is tested and he's arrested for the murders of 27 year old Ciara Glennon, 23 year old Jane Rimmer and 18 year old Sarah Spears as well as the 1988 Huntington Dale

sexual assault of the 18 year old woman. And by the way, he lived in Huntington Dale as a teenager when these prowling incidents were happening. So, Oh really? And two counts of aggravated sexual penetration without consent of the 17 year old girl in Claremont's, in the Claremont cemetery in 1995, all of which he pleads innocent for. Okay.

So, he's brought to trial three years later on November 25th, 2019. The night before the trial begins, he admits and pleads guilty to both the sexual assault cases, but not the murders. He pleads innocent to the murders. He's like, okay, I lied about not being involved in the sexual assault cases. And essentially the defense comes down to the argument that the DNA was contaminated, which I think, I think is why he must have pled guilty to the two assaults. So he could explain his DNA being in the lab and then saying, well, you must have used

that DNA and got it, you know, mixed up and contaminated with the DNA of the murders, which is fucking smart. Because I'm just, because I'm just a rape, I'm just a rape, not a murderer. Right. Yes, my, if you can't explain why your DNA is at any scene, then it shouldn't be in the room at all. But if your DNA is supposed to be in the room because you are involved, you motherfucker. That is a cynical, mercenary approach that sounds like it was, it was that a bunch of

people worked on that idea and came up with that strategy. Which sure does. Doesn't it? Dirty. Yes. Well, also just because the, you're admitting to something that actually is, it's lending itself much more to the character argument that you are a bad fucking person and a sociopath anyway or whatever, psychopath.

The idea that you're just like, it's just those, it's not this. Yeah. So maybe I'll get away with the other ones. It's an angle, but I think it actually reveals much more about that person in it because Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah. And it wasn't well thought out. Yeah.

And it's like, it's, what was I going to say? Oh, also the MO fits all of them, you know, in some way or another. So, and also the fact that this, you know, the 17 year old got grabbed off the street and pulled and tied up and pulled into the van makes them, makes everyone wonder if that's actually, they didn't get into a taxi or a unmarked car. Maybe one, maybe one of them or all of them were attacked on the street and, you know, kidnapped. So.

Yeah. And that if he was such a great guy, a sympathetic guy, a lovely friendly guy that it would be very easy if he's wearing a uniform of this kind of well known thing. That's the thing. Yes. He used, he used the company car. He wore his uniform. Other women said that they had seen him in the area and maybe he tried to pick them up

at the time. They testified to that. And he's like, at work, he's, oh, I'm just going to this call for this phone line. Want me to take you to that area? Yeah, I can take you. Yeah. I'm just this business guy. I practically work for the city.

I'm just like this. I'm, it's like the culligan manner. So it's like, the Arrowhead Spring delivery guy where you're like, yes, this is the most trustworthy person because he's around. He is, you know, we were saying like it's so sinister when it's in a group of people. He makes up a background player in a group of people. Totally. That's the guy, the phone line guy.

Totally. I mean, and also the idea that he worked for that company, those knives were found at the scenes of the, of some bodies. You don't, the other stuff, I mean, you're in it friend. Here's, well, some of the, some of the, so essentially the defense comes down to the argument that the DNA was contaminated, which is, you know, and that, which is the defense is able to show other instances of contamination in, in the case, including several times when the DNA of scientists working on the case was found on samples.

So, you know, they do have a chance with that plea or that argument. You covered that one. It wasn't that San Diego. San Diego. Right. Yeah. But no, but in this actual lab where this DNA was tested. Yeah.

So that's, They weren't just saying it happened in general. No. Wow. And when I read that, I, I remember reading it in like, like March being like, oh fuck, like this better not get him off. And on sample, one instance where the DNA of a victim of a totally unrelated crime had been contaminated with a sample of the Claremont killer, but it was all debunked on cross-examination.

So I don't even know if it's true. And then the fiber evidence also forms a significant part of the prosecution's case. Remember those blue polyester fibers found on, um, rim, Ms. Rimmer and Sklenin's bodies. Well they match the Telstra work pants that Edwards would have worn in the mid nineties, which were manufactured specifically for the company using a bespoke color known as Telstra Navy. So it all fucking ties back to Telstra. And you're like, that's crazy.

They, they should have. Oh, and there was also fibers that matched the 1996 Holden Commodore that he had driven at the time. Um, and you're like, why didn't, why didn't they look more into Telstra employees? Why didn't they look at their back, do background checks on all of them, blah, blah, blah. So investigators had asked for the names of Telstra workers who would have driven those cars since there had been sightings of those cars. Somehow his fucking name was left off of the list quote, clerical error or some shit twice.

So if they had seen his name, I wonder if you, they would have seen that he had a prior. Well they would have seen he had a common assault charge, not a sexually motivated charge, but maybe he had some charge. They would have looked at it. Yeah, they would have seen and maybe been able to go and talk to the right victim and see what the real deal was. But also maybe he made it, uh, cause clearly he got away with it for a long time. So maybe he did something and he had access.

Absolutely. So if you were putting those lists together, he had access and the ability to delete his own name off the list or maybe he, I mean, clearly his fucking supervisors are sympathetic. Maybe he went to them and say, Hey, I have this charge. It was for nothing years ago. I don't need them looking into me. Can you just take my name off the list? Obviously it's not me.

And maybe they did it. Who the fuck knows? Maybe. Maybe. I mean, because it is the thing about these people that are, they're barely people because they're entirely dedicated to creating a mask that you fall for and feel safe with. And yeah, they just manipulate everyone all the time. It's crazy.

So that they don't get caught. That's the whole point of their life. And also Telstra had no record of the actual assault in their files that didn't even happen. So we're going to go ahead and need a report from Telstra. That's right. We're going to do an internal investigation. I want, I want Wendy Davis to now own the company Telstra and all the money. She gets all of it for not being fucking believed and for not being fucking treated the way

she should have been treated. Sorry. Wendy owns Telstra now and she can sell it for millions of dollars. Yeah. Just give her some old school stock. Yeah. So the trial, which is decided, so there's no jury, it's just going to be a judge instead of a jury because of the massive public, like everyone knows everything about it.

And also there's these really gruesome details that they just don't think a jury should see. So it's going to be decided upon by a judge. So it's 85 days in the courtroom and there's testimony for more than 200 witnesses, 60,000 pages of DNA and fiber evidence and 110 gigabytes of data, which in today's gigabytes, I don't know what it is. It's a billion. It started in last November. So they did it through COVID too.

Like the whole time. They're just plowing through. Yeah. Wow. Which is incredible. And finally on Thursday, September 24th, just what, two, three weeks ago, Justice Stephen Hall delivers his verdict. So Bradley John Edwards, he's now 51, is found guilty of the murders of Jane Rimmer in 1996

and Sierra Glen in 1997. And unfortunately, he says that though Edwards is likely the killer of Sara Spears, he felt he couldn't rule it beyond a reasonable doubt because her body had never been found. So there's no DNA evidence, even though the MO is identical. So he acquits Edwards on that count, which is so disappointing. I don't think he's doing his job. Obviously he wanted him to be found guilty as well, but it's just almost like he's being rewarded for hiding her body so well.

Well, I mean, that's just how it is. But it's that thing of like, especially in a situation where if DNA is questionable in the first place, that guy has to be so meticulous about the rule of law and what exactly is required to get a guilty verdict. So he can't fuck around. Yeah. I wonder if almost if there'd be another trial just with Sara Spears case based on the MO of the other cases that, you know, if it wasn't tried together, that would somehow, you know,

because people, I mean, they just would need more, I would think they would need more evidence to tip it over because the evidence as such that he's saying isn't going to do the job. That's true. That's too bad. So sentencing will take place on December 23rd. And so finally, after 24 years, Australia's longest running and most expensive criminal investigation when that scarred the city of Perth finally came to a close. There are people who think that there are more victims of Bradley John Edwards that are not

yet known, which isn't surprising in the same way Golden State killer just stopped, you know, what he was doing or, you know, are there other cases from before the known ones. After the verdict, Sierra Glennon's father, Dennis said that he had made a graveside promise to his daughter to pursue justice for her or die trying. He said, quote, that promise that commitment to Sierra has driven me unwaveringly and unapologetically. The family of Jane Rimmer released a statement saying they were pleased to finally have, quote, some answers about the abduction and horrendous murder of our beloved Jane. Jane had her whole life ahead of her, and it's almost beyond comprehension that this

could have ended in such horrific heinous circumstances. Our family can now take some comfort today and the healing process can begin. Both families agree, however, that the ordeal won't be over until the Spears family has some closure. Jane's sister, Lee, said, quote, we got the result we wanted, and now we just have to keep working for the Spears family and hope someone finds Sarah. And that is the story of the Claremont serial killer. Good.

Wow. It's, I think I listened to, who is the Australian guy that hosts this show and no one knows who he is? Oh, yeah. Case file. Case file. Yes, for sure. I listened to the case file about this.

I think anyone that listened to our podcast, we've talked about case file before, but if you haven't heard it, it's great. He does an amazing job on that show and especially Australian-based crimes like you use. So such a good researcher. But yeah, it is such a like epic case there, the idea that they just closed the book in for those two murders, at least. It's kind of amazing. I mean, that's great.

I think so many people just never thought it'd be solved, you know, and when you think of it in terms of Perth being pretty small and isolated and just knowing that there's a killer among you that you have no idea when they're going to strike again. It's never going to be, it would never be safe for a woman to fucking walk home again. It's just, it's horrible. Also makes me think of, you know, like what, excuse me, what Billy and Paul are doing on Murder Squad because it doesn't always come down every time we tell these stories where it's cold case and then something comes up because they have this, they have fresh blood

in the, you know, the people, new detectives, people that they're dedicating cold case teams to this and people are going into the evidence room and pulling out those old boxes and looking through them. I mean, not just like doing it the old fashioned way. It's always really heartening to hear those stories of people who are like, we want these solved and we want these families to, to get justice in some way. And not only is the technology changing so they can do DNA testing the way they never could, but our, our, our thought, our like ideas of what a victim is and what a perpetrator

is and who could do these crimes and how and why they happen is changing and becoming hopefully less fucking misogynistic so that people a little bit more fact based because how many stories have we told where it is always these people who everyone says they are great. They lent me things from their garage. Like the way we, the way we decide people are good people in this world. They don't make problems for me, a lot of smiling, calm, a small talk and conversation. And then, you know, hopefully you don't ever catch them on that weird day where they decide

to kick a cat or something. Right. Or you accidentally just bump their car and see the rage suddenly in their face or whatever. It just such superficial like, I hope that if nothing else, all of the true crime trend just will hit people to the idea that you have to, we've talked about this before, save that trust for the third date. If it's your neighbor and he lends you the lawn mower, doesn't mean he's a good person. You need to see people out in their day to day.

But again, like we said, with some of these true psychopaths, you would never think in a million years because they dedicate their lives to being the kind of people you would never suspect. Wow. Great job. Thank you. That was really good. Thank you.

Yeah. That's one we can look at as being solved now. Yeah. It's amazing. Thank God. Yeah. All right. It's fucking hooray time.

All right. And not a moment too soon. Amen. Let's see. This one's from Haley and it says, this fucking hooray is for slash about my fellow murder Reno former roommate and best friend Kendall. We just graduated college, which is a fucking hooray in and of itself during 2020. And then this bitch, this is an all caps.

And then this bitch started law school at fucking Harvard law. She is one of the smartest, hardest working people I know, and she truly cares about this world and politics and fighting for those without a voice. She's exactly the type of lawyer that we all know this world needs more of. And there's no one more deserving. She also did this while being a wonderful friend and daughter while her, while both of her parents are kicking cancer's ass. I love her and I'm so fucking proud of her.

And I can't wait to watch her become a real life Elwood's fighting for people that need a voice the most as a CGM Haley. Hell yeah. I love that. Way to glow your friend up. I know. I love that someone else's fucking hooray is their friend. That's so beautiful.

She's very proud of her friend who went to Harvard fucking law. It's badass. Yeah. Okay. This is so awesome. From Instagram, from live underscore Desiree, okay, my fucking hooray this week are my mom and murderino friends who helped me as SSTGM, two of these badass ladies who know my morning walk routine immediately checked in on me when there was a report of two active shooters

in our area. Within minutes, I had four different friends who checked in every few minutes until I was home safe. Women looking after women. It's such a beautiful thing. If it hadn't been for them, I probably would have walked right through the wrong neighborhood on my way home or taken my usual trail through the woods where the perpetrators were evading police.

Oh, shit. I'm so grateful and so lucky to have the friends that I do huge thank you to them for making sure my son and I got home safe. Wow. Beautiful. This is a friend's theme. Yeah. Here comes the little monkey.

Let's see. This is fucking hooray. I saved a life. I'm a 911 dispatcher for a living. So I deal with people's worst, worst day every day. Wow. And then beautifully put. Holy shit.

The other day I took a call from a teenager that her aunt wasn't responding. I got the ambulance on route and we started CPR. The paramedics got on scene and she became alert and talked with them and then all caps. She walked herself to the ambulance. Not the first life save I've had before, but it's always a great feeling because most things don't end that well in my line of work. Stephanie. Amazing.

Amazing. Keep it up. Yeah. This one is called I FaceTime my 95 year old great grandma for the first time. This is from the fan cult forum and it's sent by Louie Bondouie. What's up Louie? Louie. Okay.

My 95 year old great grandma Dolores is one of my most favorite people on earth. She's a G damn angel. She lives two hours up north and though I have tried to see her at her nursing facility I've been denied three times even for a window visit. She has pretty severe Alzheimer's so she doesn't really know who I am anymore but I tried to visit her as often as I could when the world allowed. But last night I found out she's in the hospital and tested positive for COVID. Not the best news.

But my boyfriend called the hospital and explained that he is a coroner and I work in a funeral home and that our city has seen more cases than the whole country she lives in. He then was directed at the hospital coordinator who informed him that I am able to FaceTime her on the hospital's iPad and I got to see her. The nurse told her quote, Lindsay's on the phone and she perked up. Her eyes got big and she seemed to know who I was through tears and some giggles. I finally got to see her one more time. I told her I love her and the nurse said she gripped the iPad tighter and pulled it closer.

I wish I was there so she could squeeze my hand when I told her I love her like she used to but I knew her grumbles and snickers meant that she loved me too. Stay sexy and tell the people you love that you love them any chance you get, Lindsay. Ugh. Wow. Yeah. Heavy. That's nice.

I mean, it's heavy times. Things getting real fucking real and there's people dealing with shit like this, you know, trying to get a hold of their relatives who are dying alone in a hospital like aside from aside from the fact that there's no plan aside from the fact there's no contact tracing aside from all these other things that are an absolute just collapse of leadership. That idea that there's just no no one's taken the time just to make this a more workable livable thing is just we're going to be dealing with it for a long time. We are.

We totally are. Yep. Um, but we can say, but we can say when things are great because there's little things that are and we just keep doing it. That's right. Look for your point. Look for the fucking arrays in your life and tell them to us on Instagram and Twitter and a fan cult.

Please. Yeah. We need it. We all need it. We really need it. Um, hummingbirds that, uh, there's hummingbirds in my tree and there's hummingbirds in the neighbor's tree and now there's a hummingbird highway between the two that's right outside my window and, uh, that's my fucking right because also it reflects of how much time

I spend staring and sitting at this desk, being like, what the fuck, but then it's like, yeah, gotta, gotta, you know, keep your eye peeled for, I pick hummingbirds, traveling at high speeds. My fucking hurray is, uh, I haven't had a drink in three nights tonight will be four nights and I'm just trying to take a little time off and I, and it's been great. I had this realization that like, Oh, you know, all the anxiety and negativity and self hatred and self talk you do when you're drunk, it actually will stop if you don't drink. It's not like it'll get better.

It's not like, it's not like it'll lower it a little bit like that whole thing will stop. There's a way to actually stop it. It like hit me. Yeah. Oh, a hundred. I don't have to have a hangover ever again. If I just completely stop, fuck.

Right. I know. Baby steps. I'm learning. That's right. Well, you know what it is. You have to feel the reality of it because you can't conceptualize your way into doing that.

You just have to go. This feels better. I'm going to do it until it doesn't feel better and then I'm going to deal with it when it's something else before the moment. And for right now, you can go. I want to do the thing that feels the best to me because especially all things considered. Yeah. Let's, let's actually aim at good feeling as opposed to habits that we think bring relief.

Right. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. So I'm trying something else. Right. Amen. Thanks for listening for two hours to us, you guys in this crazy world. We appreciate that you stopped by and say hello to your aunts, your crazy aunts. Yeah.

That's right. Oh, we love when you come to visit. Honey. Oh, God. How's the hard candy? I have the Christmas cookies you like from last Christmas. Let me pull out this tin. Oh, grandma energy.

Yay. Honey. Grandma energy. Let me fix you a plate. That's what grandmas do. Keep that grandma energy this week. If you can't do anything else, then at least just have a, keep a little of your grandma, of someone else's grandma you liked, a cartoon grandma, whatever you need.

But that's the energy approach everyone with grandma energy this week. Yes. I'll fix you a plate. Of course you can come over. Grandma's feed everybody. Fix your heart. Let me fix you a plate. Do it.

Yeah. Let's feed others. And oh, and also stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Yeah.