My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 256 - Live at the Fillmore in Detroit, MI (2017)

Episode Date: January 7, 2021

In this week’s former Fan Cult exclusive episode, Karen and Georgia cover the death of Robin Boes and murderer Lowell Amos.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime, and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook, and listen to True Crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. What's up, Detroit? Karen has a new obsession. I'd like to tell you guys about it. It's this fucking flag that the Mitten Murderinos made us.

And she hasn't put it down since we got here. There's something about a flag, everybody. It doesn't matter what size it is. All right, everyone get ready. Go, go. I feel like I went to Yale in the 50s. She's only started doing fucking stage work. What do they call it when you rock around the stage? Spacework.

Out of nowhere. That was when we stopped doing live shows. Hi, everybody. Hi. Enough about us. Sorry about the flag stuff. I just don't like anything. So when I actually like something, it's so exciting.

Everything sucks and I hate it. And then I'm like, oh my God. Goodbye, Karen. Goodbye. That was a flag bit of a show. I'm drunk off that flag. I'd like to address my fishnet type marks on my legs. Because last, thank you.

Last show, I was like, these types, they're so rad. They're spanks and tights and fishnets. And by the end of the show, they were like down to here. They had like rolled to here. So I went backstage and just fucking ripped them off. Yes. And then I had to throw away. So I'm like, I'll wear them again some day.

Just not on stage where I kept doing this thing. And then I think I flashed everyone an accident too. You're saving them for a special occasion like at a party where you can pull them up the whole time. Right. Right. Amongst friends. Yes.

Also normally, sorry, normally we wear fancy dresses because we get to do shows in these awesome theaters. So we like to dress for the occasion. When we arrived at the show tonight, I turned to Georgia very sincerely and said, I forgot my dress. I forgot my dress at the hotel. And then I, for a second, I think Vince was like,

do you want me to go back and get it? And then I was like, oh no, because I forgot to buy shoes entirely. So like, even if you'd want to get the dress, I would have had to wear these with the dress. And it all fell apart. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna wear this weird gap shirt then. I was like, you're dressed like a goth already. Right.

The only rule, because there's no rules because we made it all up, is you have to wear black. So fucking wear what you're wearing. So I was still within the boundaries of the contract. Right. She was like, what if we wear it already now? And I'm not kidding, you had a like 1970s like sweater that had pink hearts on it.

And it looked like something, what's her face from Twin Peaks would we be wearing? Audrey? I'm wearing black, so you can totally wear it. Yeah. No, I think it worked out fine. But I did leave on my shitty shoes in solidarity. Yeah. And for comfort reasons.

So take a look at these. If you've never heard the podcast before, this is the kind of heart wrenching stuff we talk about the entire time. Yeah. This is my favorite murder, the true crime comedy podcast. Thank you. Welcome. That's Karen Kilgill.

And that's Georgia Hardstar. Thank you. I thought we were going to both do it. It was just me. I was a flat cue. Wait, tell them the story about your discovery mid-show, last show. You know how some episodes I think of something really stupid

and then just scream it in the middle because I get so excited about it? Well, this time Karen was telling her murder story and like something happened where someone was like, and then they did this thing and it's like clearly, and I went to go red flag, and then I just instead went, like a fucking idiot, and also didn't explain it right away.

I was just waving the flag at a really inappropriate time. Wait a second. Red flag. I was just like, are you listening to me at all? We're supposed to be doing a show together. I ate a Coney dog. Oh, that's right. Vince brought,

I was in the hotel gym, I remember Vince comes to me, he's like, Coney dogs, and I'm like, Rad, and he bought an extra one. I was like, go give it to Karen, and he goes, she doesn't want one. Well, hold on. No, I'm sorry, I did not need to throw you under the bus.

No, no, no, you didn't. But when I got the text from Vince, it was, do you want me to bring you a Coney dog? Which to me, in my mind, I was like, they're at a Coney dog place together, and Vince, they're like wondering if they want to bring it back. And then the idea of that is like, do you want to eat a Coney dog alone

in your hotel room in the dark? Like, we know you always do. Of course, not all have this apple. We didn't invite you to get the Coney dog with us. It was a couple's only Coney dog out there. Couple's only Coney dog, which is very rude. And then secondly,

do you want to eat in the dark with the curtains closed? I mean, yes, the answer is yes. But I'm not going to tell you about it. I'm going to pretend like I have some self-control over my own, I mean, yeah. I wish you had just said in the text, I'm bringing Georgia. And then I'd be like, fucking bring me three.

Oh, man, it's still in the hotel room. Out in this paper bag, trash on it. You're welcome when we get back. I have been... I just wanted you to describe to the people who already know, but, you know, Georgia used to be a host on the Food Network. And so she's kind of, yeah,

she's kind of a food expert. And so I was like, I want you to tell me about the Coney dog, but not normally I need you to tell me like you would if you were on your Food Network show. And I have seven years training. Okay. American Coney Dog in Detroit, Michigan. Actually, can you say it again,

but say American Coney Dog in Michigan. Say it again and say, oh, no. Say it again and don't leave off the state. Yeah, that's like a weird controlling producer that's just trying to fuck with you. Right. And she's like, put down the fucking flag. You take a bite and you get this snap. And then you just get the crunch of the onions

with this soft, doughy, pillowy bread, bread, hot dog bun. And it's just delicious. And for the next three to four days, your fingers smell like Coney Dogs. No joke. I've showered, I've washed my hands multiple times because I have ADD,

and they still smell like Coney Dogs. Is that the end of the Food Network segment? Yeah. You just go down into a, start talking about all these weird things you do with your Coney Dogs. I didn't get fired from the, I didn't get fired. What if the Food Network, like the first person in history

they fired me? No, they didn't. We usually don't do this. We let people get super drunk on camera, but you, you got to go. Yeah. It was really good, you guys. And he wanted me to tell everyone

that he would normally go to the other Coney Dog place, not American Lafayette, but they only accepted cash, and you didn't have cash on them, so you didn't have a place to go to. Yeah, it's very important. We understand. It's good.

Vince claims to be from here, so you have to prove it. You can't just go to whatever Coney Dog place. Well, you know he's from here because he'll hold up his hand and point to a place that he says we're going to, but I fucking swear to God every time he points at the same place

that he's fucking with me, because I'm like, well, where are we going to go, and he's like, well, so we're actually going to go here and like point said his hand and I'm like, okay, cool, I have no fucking clue what he's talking about, and I don't want to tell him.

He's here under my control. What? Okay, because you know we normally go here, and the mitten, the mitten, the mitten. I'm from Southern California. This is Southern California. We're from down here. We're from over here on the coast.

We're not down by the elbow San Diego. Gross. I don't want to steal your rad joke, but this is where we're from. We're actually from here. Right here. Right at the tip of that one is where I'm most used to being. I was caring.

I don't want to take credit for that incredible joke, and I won't, and I refuse to. Oh, we got a gift. Did you bring it? Oh fuck, I didn't bring it. Did we bring that bag? Is the bag there? We'll just describe it. Don't worry about it.

Okay, so when the people that worked here came up and they said, someone that's going to be at the next show brought you this gift, but they're so excited they need you to have it now. And he said, they showed me a picture of it

so I knew what was in it, and he goes, and it's really awesome. And then we pull the tissue off the top of the bag, and out comes what looks kind of like a bowling trophy, but that's been very, very adjusted.

And the bottom. So the, here we go. I thought the verbal was way better. So there it is. And on the bottom it says, the fucking word is trophy. And there's some arms and some eyes

and some hair. This guy's carrying a knife, and then he's got a head in his other hand. Whoever made this. Oh, Julie Rose, Kelly Lynch, Melissa Lynch, you talented mother fucker. The Lynch, Kelly Rose and the Lynch sisters

delivering it once again. I mean, if all gifts could help us this way, send us a gift that shows us correctly pronounced city names. That'd be great. I don't know if it'd be like dinner mats or something. That'd be great.

That's amazing. Now we have a pneumatic aid. So we'll always remember trophy. Should we sit down? Wait, first we need to talk to the boyfriends who've been forced to come here. I think it's important. There's some,

there's people who already don't know what's going on and we haven't even really talked about anything. I know that that's very alienating and now we're going to sit down and talk true crime and make jokes. It's all very bewildering and we understand.

We just want to know that you're our friends too and we care about the Oilers and stuff, whatever you like. We also like that too. The what? Oilers? The Oilers? The Lions? The Red Wings?

It's right here. It's here. It's right here. We were in some state and I was like, what's your guys' baseball team? The Alligators? I said the snakes.

The rattlesnakes. It wasn't the rattlesnakes. It was like a pirate. We don't know where we are. Anyhow, that's our way of saying hi. We pretend to be nice and then we insult you twice. That's how we do it. This is a true crime comedy podcast.

Also when we sit down, guys and ladies who don't know who we are, they're going to applaud and it's weird. And then when we say what murders we're doing, I don't know. And what we sit down and nothing happens. They're like, why are they warning us about things that don't? I know.

Well, now you know. Now you know to applaud. Who did it never happen before and I just really wanted to be applauded because you have to. All right. I was pandering. It doesn't make a ton of sense.

We forgot something. Steven! Oh, Steven! Hi! When he's not offstage, there was like a second wave of even more intense cheering. Did Steven pull his shirt up or something?

What was that? He's wearing my Spanx. He's like, George, I thought it'd be funny. Steven's here. Steven is here. It's great to have Steven at the live shows. He's a very grounding presence.

We always like to have his mustache around. It's just nice. And then people get so genuinely excited for Steven the podcast producer. It's like a whole new area of celebrity that has not existed before. No, we had no idea. And like, yeah.

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on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong

and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths, and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience

as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler. Killer Psyche Daily I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details,

share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive podcast Killer Psyche Daily

in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Are you ready to do this thing? I'm ready. Yeah, it looks like it. Georgia's first this show. Yeah, I'm first. It's her turn. So I hold the flag while it's my turn. This is the turn flag.

The whole time. Or I can hold it and then when you're done I'll go like this. A flourish to show that I'm done. That's all I've ever wanted in my life. All right. Well, this is the story of the death of Robin Bose.

Okay. July 30th, 2002 in the town of Zeeland, Michigan. Oh, is this old Zeeland? I've been to New Zeeland. I was like, if I say, it's spelled E-E-E-L-A-N-D. If I say this wrong.

Because you know they like pronounce it. It's called Zeil. And then I get yelled at. Yeah. But it's spelled Zeeland. Every time. Thank you. It's about 180 miles from here. Great. It's up over here. It's here. Great. It's here.

It's the rare pinky city. But no one, does anyone ever go like, hey. That wasn't actually a question. I found my in. Yes. Okay. This is like when you read the Torah,

you have to have like a special pointer because you can't touch it. So now I can't read. You should go down to your local temple and be like, I have a new idea. You're going to love the Torah again. And they're like, you're not Jewish anymore.

Get the fuck out of here. We haven't seen you for 25 years. And we read your tweets. Oh, my God. What if your home temple was like, we're so disappointed in your Twitter presence? IJC. I need you to love me.

Um, um, um, um, um. Okay. About 180 miles. So the morning of July, correct, 2002. Neighbors notice smoke coming from the booze family residence, B-O-E-S. And firefighters get to the house.

They battle the flames and not realize that anyone was in the house. Oh. And then a short time later, they discovered the body of 14-year-old high school freshman Robin Bowes in her bedroom. Robin died of smoke inhalation

and what looked like a blast of fire that had caused her eyebrows and hairs to be singed. And she was facedown inside her bedroom door. Karen, Robin's mother, last to leave that house that morning, around 8.55 in the morning,

and she went and picked up her friend to go shopping in Grand Rapids a few minutes before 9. Everyone loves it. Um, just five minutes before the fire started is when she picked up her friend. A few minutes after Karen and her friend

arrived at the shopping center in Grand Rapids, around 9.30 they received a call informing Karen of the fire. And when she got home, she has to be given a shot of valium to keep her from running inside of the house.

She knew her daughter was inside of her. On the sidewalk, they give her a shot of valium. Isn't that insane? I mean, yeah. It's great. The idea that that woman even had to go through that. She could just be like, give me the valium.

Firefighters begin to search the house. Sorry, quick idea. Just EpiPen style valium shots. For this, like for the age we're in and the time we're in, wouldn't it be nice? Don't they have lollipops?

I think they have like crazy narcotic lollipops. There was definitely an episode of intervention. I swear to God. Where someone was eating valium lollipops? They were just constantly sucking on valium lollipops. I didn't even know it was a thing. So,

they just don't work on me. Any kind of thing. I'm just like, good night. I don't know how people can actually want to do that. I mean, I feel like any pill that's lollipop size is going to work on me. I'm going to let it. I'm going to let it.

Do you remember the one in intervention where the woman sat in a folding chair in her garage smoking and taking pills all day? That thing filled me and it was going to happen to me. There was like nothing about it that I couldn't see doing.

You related to every little bitty part of it. She couldn't smoke inside her own house which is good. So, she'd go into the garage with the door shut and a folding, one of those like from the drugs to folding chairs and then people would have to come out

and visit her in the garage while she was just fucking peeled out and just like chain slams. And I was like, this is my future. There's no way I'm not going to do this. I relate in every way to like when you're so overwhelmed that you're like

what about absolute stillness and being high all the time as a solution? In a beach chair. In a beach chair. Hopefully that woman got the help she needed. Let's just do this episode about intervention episodes because I've got

10 more I need to talk about. I remember the girl started drinking in the bathroom during the intervention. Do you remember that? She's like, hold on a second. I have to go to the bathroom and she's fucking as if no one was going to know. I'm such an alcoholic.

We were both addicts. We're not making fun. No, we're living it. It's tough because a lot of times like a flask really does seem like the solution. And it is. Sometimes it is. The dude who was going to a festival

recently and so he went and you can't bring you're an alcoholic and so he went to the festival grounds three weeks early and buried a bottle of vodka. What? And everyone's like, yeah, guy, good idea. And you're like, stop drinking. Dude. The solution is to stop drinking.

Dude, when's the last time you paid a bill on time but you're fucking burying a bottle three weeks early? Like, no judgments. This guy clearly is smart and crafty. Use it for good. Say babies. So, Valium.

That's where that started. It started because an awful thing happened. Let's sink back down. We're sinking back. So firefighters begin to search the house just to do a once around thinking it was an accident but they have to do some investigation.

They found... Okay. Forgot to fucking mention this part. I hate... I hate false confession. Well, this is from the confession tapes. Oh. The TV show? Yeah, the new Netflix TV show.

I meant to tell you guys that. This case is from that? This case. So I watched the whole thing about it. So they get into the house and they go into her room where most of the fire had happened there in the hallway. In the middle of the fucking room

there's a five gallon gas can in the middle of her bedroom. Here it is. Take a look at this. Nothing fucking shit. Oh, shit. That's in the middle of her bedroom. Yeah. Why is it there? I kind of like that they're like

the black boxes of fires where you'd think that would burn really quickly because it's what's filled with gas. Right, so why? No, I'm here to tell a story. Yeah. Guess what? You're not getting away with shit. And the reason I'm doing this case even though I fucking

false confessions stress me out so much that I had to turn the show off initially and have a panic attack real quick before I went back to it. See, and then your EpiPen Valium would have I mean, imagine. Where's my lollipop? The reason is because this is the only one where I was

I'm so conflicted about what actually happened. All the other ones it was like well obviously this is a false confession and they didn't do it. This one I don't freaking know and so I need your help with telling me why there's a fucking gas can in the middle of the bedroom.

In the meantime, in the show the fire fire who found the gas can was like whoa, he picks it up, there's video of it sloshes it around and he's like and my dad who was the fire chief I turned around and said whoa, look at this and he says when my dad said throw it out the window.

But I knew that would be a bad idea so I left it and then they just moved on to the next scene and I was like your dad should be fired? Because I knew it would be a bad idea so I called the fire investigators instead. Throw it out the window. I'm sure there's a reason for that.

As the daughter of a fireman I would just like to say that's a classic fireman move of like get that thing out of here. It's all very maybe he was like an ember is going to spark it again, maybe he was actually really smart and the sun was kind of there. There might have been logic behind it but there also could have been that

thing where like if you have a parent who's a fireman you know like they will not turn the heater on in the winter like there's just a certain personality style where it's like it's all very like I'll take care of this. Throw it out the window. Alright, I don't have to listen to you anymore.

Okay. But I could be wrong about this guy. We're usually not. Often. The investigators are called to the scene. They initially and a lot of people still suspect that Robin committed suicide in this manner.

But by the next day and initially investigators did too, but by the next day they brought in Karen, the mother for questioning. She came in voluntarily, didn't ask for a lawyer so wasn't given her right, Miranda rights. She was given a lie detector test which she was told she failed miserably.

So at this point investigators mentioned the gas can to her and she tells them that it had been missing for two weeks. This is like their family gas can. It's a gas can thing in Michigan. It has its own chair. When you live here

you have family gas can. People here love gas can. I missed that because I was talking so much. That was funny. Thanks. Thanks, Georgia. So it had gone missing and there had been like a fire

like a little bonfire looking. I'd start in the backyard a couple weeks before the fire in the house so they were like maybe the neighborhood boys were just having camping fires. I don't know. But as soon as they said to her so there was a missing gas can

Karen says you didn't find it in her bedroom, did you? But, and that's one of the things that like the prosecutors eventually like boom, but it's also like she knows her daughter died in a fire. She knows her is a missing gas can and then they say to her there was a missing gas can.

She's like putting it together for a case scenario. Right. So that is the obvious next step. So it's like, ah, frustrating. Okay. After 16 hours of an investigation 16 hours, I'm sorry, interrogation. Oh, oh, you know what I mean? Yes. She insisted

she didn't know anything that happened. They have all this video footage in the confession tapes. Her neighbor and friend she went to church with him. She babysat his kids. Their kids went to school together and were friends. Chief Olney shows up to talk to her. She's the chief.

So she's like. The police chief? The police chief. No, I thought maybe that fire chief would come back and be like, you know what? Take that lie detector machine and throw it out the window. So at this point, it's like 10 hours into the investigation and she's starting to question herself and you can see that she she's trying to help because

she doesn't understand what's going on. And the the biggest thing to her is that she trusts the lie detector test more than she trusts her own memory. Yeah. So she starts saying things like, I don't think I did it. And when he walks in the room in the video, she goes, apparently I did it. And he goes, why?

And she says, because of the lie detector test. So they're like, she did it and we need her to confess. So they're interrogating her. She doesn't believe her own memory. And her fucking daughter, she's grieving her daughter from the day before she died. Yes, she's out of her mind.

Out of her mind. So they told her they found gas on her shoes and clothes. Which I still don't know if it's true or not. They told her they have her fingerprints on the gas can. They say to her gas can.

The fire started right when she left the house, which is true. I mean, it's crazy how quickly it started. But that's also exactly when if a person wanted to start it, they would wait till she left the house. Right. And that her husband was upset to thinking that maybe she knew more than she was saying. So they're telling her this.

And then they do the old story. If you did do it, how would it have happened? Which is always the way to get people to explain a scenario that then they buy. And she said, I don't know, maybe I dreamed it at some point. And then they said, if you did dream it, how would

that have happened? Were you sleepwalking or in a dream state? How about your unconscious mind? And she starts to believe that she did it by mistake because she says there's no way she would have done it on purpose. So she has no idea. She says maybe she had a scenario.

And she slept to find the phone. Saw the gas can. Maybe she had sloshed her around to see what was in there. And then maybe had lit a candle in her room. Right. She's just trying to put something together. Yeah. Here's the only scenario that if it was my fault, here's how that would have

happened. And then so they find out that Karen and Robin had a strained some say stormy relationship ever since Robin turned 14. Which is like, hi, I was like, hi. Introduce me to the 14-year-old that likes their mom and I'll be like, hey, Liar,

what's up? Yeah. How's it going? Also like, and we've talked about this on the podcast, from the age, as a latchkey kid from the age of seven to 14, I played with fire in the house constantly. That was kind of my past time. How fun that was to light things on fire

and see how paper burned or like, I once took tea in a paper towel and I wanted to smoke it and so I lit it on fire to smoke in front of the, and it quickly caught on fire. You lit the bed on fire as a child. I lit the bed on fire when I was five, everyone knows about it. With her mom home.

My mom was on the phone and she didn't pay enough attention to me, so I lit the bed on fire. It worked. It worked. We do what we must. But we've got to smoke a tea cigarette. Tea paper towel cigarette. I believe it was chamomile. It's epic.

Ew. How did I know how to roll it? God, you know what? I didn't. I bet I used tape on it, too. Yeah. I bet I tried to smoke a taped paper towel with loose tea inside of it. Loose chamomile tea.

That's it. Anything. Where were the parents? Okay. Can Mr. O'Connell tell us? Jerry, what the fuck were you people doing in the 80s when you weren't raising all of your children? Okay. I'm going to go into a bell and hang out

with a bad crowd. Karen admitted to her husband there were times that she hated Robin and that Robin had treated her like shit. Which, yeah, how many times have you? Yeah. Having a teenager. It came out. So Robin's diary was in the room

and not burned. So in the diary, it turned out that Robin wrote about having called child protective services on her father because he threw a piece of metal at her that was the fire. Wayne and Robin had gotten into a huge fight. So the family was supposed to go, I think,

the next day or that weekend away for Memorial weekend and Robin didn't want to go. She was supposed to start a new job waitressing so she wanted to come home early and they were having a huge fight over that. Like who wants to go camping with your family when you're 14? Right. Or do anything with your family?

I mean, live with them. So she said that they'd gotten a huge fight and that Wayne had kicked in the door and she wrote in her diary that she was scared. So they go to trial. Here we go. John D.

With the mother's admission? Yeah. Based on that interrogation? Yeah, based on the confession. Do you know why they didn't look into the father? It was only the mother? So this guy, John D. Han, H-A-A-N, he wrote the fire investigation book. He wrote it, the book.

Used in fire investigation I wrote. He's the final word in fire investigation. Well, that's what he says. What does he say about throwing stuff out the window? Is there a chapter about... Did anyone read the book? Is what the question is? Well, he refers to it as the Bible of fire investigations and

he's one of those characters that you and I would be like, that I was like, oh, this guy. You know what I mean? Because he does admit later that he had to recount his expert testimony in past cases. One of which is because the data had changed where three children were killed

in a fire and the mother was charged with the murder based on his expert witness testimony. So, there we go. Okay, so he concludes that the fire started, so here's what they think. The fire started right outside the bedroom in

the hallway with the door almost closed. That Karen had sprinkled gasoline all over the hallway, which was kind of like a closed off, no window hallway, like the 1980s house those kinds of things, and that there was gasoline poured outside the door, and then the gas can

was left there, and so what happened was in their mind that Robin woke up, saw smoke, so opened her bedroom door at which time the oxygen fueled the fire and it exploded in her face. That was their saying, because there was no gasoline.

I don't know. Okay. It's just like there's so many sides to the story. David Smith is the defense arson expert, says there was no gasoline spread in the hallway at all. There was no traces of gasoline only in Robin's room, and possibly Robin had spread the gasoline

intending to leave before it caught fire, maybe to try to get out of going out of town or to get back at her family or because she was pissed off, but maybe that ignited from a candle or a match, and there was a photo, there was like matches all over her floor, like she lit candles and incense

and shit, as you do as a rebel, you meditate. I didn't know what meditating was. As a rebellious teen. You put the doors on and you meditate. Okay, because there were, okay, so here's what he said, and this is so fucked up. So there were no burns on the underside

of her chin, and he says that matches someone a right-handed person leaning forward and looking down, because it protects here. And then basically it just went up into her face. That's what they're saying. Maybe by the fumes. So veteran fire dog, Rhonda.

Fire dog? Mm-hmm, Rhonda. I wish I had a photo of her. Fuck, I'm sorry. I bet she's a Dalmatian. She's not. She's like a black lab. I don't know if they do Dalmatians anymore. So Rhonda comes into the house

and she, Rhonda's a dog, zeroes in an overturned chair in the parent's room. And that had traces of gasoline on it, but no one else, none of the fire investigators had even noticed. So if the dog hadn't been

there, they wouldn't have found that. And the other thing, and so weird, okay, so maybe Robin did accidentally do it, and that's what I was thinking initially, but then I found out that Robin was in her underwear, had no shoes on, and I was thinking, if she were planning on lighting this fire,

wouldn't she have packed a bag, including her diary that was found out? No, she wouldn't have left it out. We would have had a bag, a go bag, as they call it, and she would have had clothes on. So that's super weird. Also during the polygraph test, Karen had admitted

to having an affair a few years prior. The judge ruled it inimitable, but the jury had already heard it. So that kind of gave them, you know, pause about her. And then that turned Wayne against her husband, and he testified that she had snapped, and he

sought a divorce from her during the trial. Karen was convicted of first degree murder for setting the fire. She was sentenced to life in prison without parole, and a lot of the jurors said that what sold them was that John D. Hand,

the fire investigator, book writer, was so like, line by line of line of what exactly happened, and was so sure of everything that he was saying to them, he had a good story. And I said his story was better. And the other dude, David Smith, was like,

I'm not going to conclusively say anything because you just nobody knows, and so because there were other possibilities around them, they didn't believe him. So, sentenced to life in prison without parole, she has appealed the case to the point

where she has no more appeals left, and she maintains her innocence from prison. She's been there for 15 years, she's 61 years old now. And Kelly Lodenberg, who created the confession tapes and directs all the episodes, she's convinced that Karen didn't kill her daughter. The Innocence Project

reports that 28% of its 351 clients who were convicted of crimes only to be exonerated by DNA involved false confessions. I just don't know what happened and it's driving me crazy. It's one of those Jean Benet things where it's like, there's a couple

different things that make sense to me, and none of them make sense all the way. Yeah, you can kind of track any storyline that's happening, because the fire expert reminds me of that Bloodspatter guy from the staircase where that guy was like the same thing

of talking very exacting and scientifically about this Bloodspatter only then a couple years later to have all of that evidence get overturned because it's total bullshit and he was making shit up, he was literally making up these theories about Bloodspatter

and none of it was actually scientifically proven. Well, it's just so crazy that I don't want to, I have an idea of what I think happened or like what, like two scenarios that I think could have happened, but either way, it's like she's just reasonable

doubt of these two, these options that were given in the trial, maybe she, even if I don't, I'm not convinced she didn't do it. There's reasonable doubt. There's reasonable doubt. Yeah. And also, the worst part is considering the fact, if she truly is innocent, she lost her child,

she just basically lost everything in this insane circumstance. Yeah. Oh, you can wave that now. So that's the story of Robin Boos. Wow. That's rough. Yeah. All right. Well, my murder,

my murderer, I'm going to talk about a man named Lowell Ames here from Detroit. Most of the research from this story I'm about to tell you, I got from a website called the Malifactors Register, and it was written by a guy

named Mark Ribbon. Okay, so I'm going to take you now back to December 9th, 1994, 52 year old, former general manager, plant manager, Lowell Ames, and his 37 year old wife, Roberta Mauri Ames, are here in town

attending a company executive party at the Athenian Hotel. And they go back to their suite at 1230, and start doing Coke. This is a very Coke based story. This episode is brought to you by Drugs.

Remember that one on intervention where the guy was super addicted to Coke, and he looked like a like a surfer, like he was, he looked like he still had it together, but he slept on the roofs of different hotels that he snuck into. What? Again, I was sitting there going, I'm going to do this someday.

Like you get one duvet, and then you get like a chaise lounge by the pool. He would sleep by the pool, and then when people from the hotel found him, he looked legit enough, so he'd be like, I'm in room 473, and they'd be like sorry, sir. I just love sleeping under the stars and the water tower.

Okay. So they go back to their room to do Coke with a female friend, and this female friend later says that when she left the Amos' room at 4.30 a.m., imagine the conversations they were having

in that non-smoking hotel room that they were absolutely smoking in the whole entire time. Coke is the worst because you just talk to people you would never normally talk to. Yeah. And you try to start a band with them. Yeah. It's insanity. Alright.

So she says, I absolutely see the face of like a child at the front row, sorry. Don't do drugs. It's probably a gorgeous older lady who uses really good lotions. Don't worry about it. You don't know what you see.

Okay. So when this friend leaves, she later says that Roberta seemed tired and groggy like she had been drinking and she was about to pass out, but that Lowell was jumpy and talkative. Had a lot of ideas about restaurants he wanted to start.

You know, no Coke stuff. Four hours later at 8 30 a.m., an executive named Burt Crabtree classic. He is actually from Mad Men, but he went into this

murder specifically. Burt, what's up? So Burt gets a panicked phone call from Lowell who's saying you have to come down to my room right now. He's freaking out. So Burt gets another, and I think these guys ended up being that they

worked at this company that Lowell Amos was associated with because I was like, who would do, somebody called my hotel room after a party and was like, get down here. I'd be like, or go fuck yourself. There's all these options. Cause no matter what. I know the one I'm taking. Like, are you

out of your mind? Like the best possibility is he wants you to help him clean the room. Yes. Like that sucks. Yeah, and that's best case scenario. Best case scenario is fucking beer cans. Get down here right now and you're just like, I'll see you at the breakfast buffet. I was just at a crazy party.

Okay, so but Burt being the Burt Crabtree that he is goes down with another employee or guest from that party named Daniel Porcosi and they go down to Amos's room and when they get there

Lowell tells them Roberta died in an accident and he asked them for help cleaning up before the police come. Which again, but also aid in a bet this crime that may or may not have happened.

So Amos tells them he had gone to sleep and when he woke up later Roberta was dead. But they're both chilled by the way he explains this to him. Cause he says he just says to them very coldly

she's laying there in the other room cold as a mackerel. When mackerel is cold I think they're quite cold when they come out of this dream. Yeah, it's a fish. That's what he... Fish don't get that hot. He's guilty.

That is a red flag. That is stupid like that. So then Lowell Amos asks Daniel to take his sport coat for him and so he's like sounds great doesn't question it apparently grabs it, throws it over

no Dan number, Burt would never fucking do that. Burt's like I don't want your coat, I'm out of here I've got a big project due tomorrow. So on his way driving home Daniel Percosi looks inside the breast pocket of the coat and he

finds a small black leather case and inside the case there's a syringe with no needle and a foul smelling washcloth. Eww Like you don't want to hear those words. No. No.

And like in what way? Then I'm just like this could it be mold there's nothing worse when you go to wash your face and somebody had left it on the ground then put in the washer then left in the washer for two days then put it in the dryer and you're like sweet it's every kind of mold

now on my face. There's also the thing of like a washcloth that smells bad and then a foul smelling washcloth just sounds so much worse. Foul smelling. It smelled like the evil of men.

Or maybe it smelled like ducks. Got it? Yes, it's a foul pond. Yes. Give it up to her. No. I think I heard the first time

that Mr. O'Connell left just my stupid dad dad joke of all time. He really was. He was like I hated this and now I'm on board. Sweetie. Do more duck jokes. That's what I came here for. Why can't you talk about nice things?

Why does he have a southern accent? Later on Lowell Amos took his coat back and then after that the leather the small leather case and its contents disappeared. Okay when he's interviewed by police Lowell Amos explains he and Roberta had engaged in sexual games

involving cocaine. He claims that she was still doing it when he fell asleep. According to Kim she couldn't snort coke because she had a sinus problem and that he said that she took it inside her body and that's how

that's the sexual games part is that she took coke through her vagina. No. It's true somebody would for the vagina. That's very, very feminist of you. But police are confused by this story because and as we all are

because they've been doing coke for four hours and he's like and then I fell asleep. No you fucking didn't. No you didn't. You had to watch QVC before you would have fallen asleep my friend. It doesn't happen. Then if he did fall asleep

when Roberta started having seizures because she had it as he claimed that she had no deed on coke that would have woken him up probably. But none of that happened. He was out like a light. Well baby don't wake the baby. And then

when the rooms process by crime scene investigators they find coke on the bed linen including the part that's tucked under the mattress. What? Yeah. So they're just like throwing it in the air. They're throwing it and snorting it in the air because they're super rich.

They're like it's a raining coke everybody. It's truly snowing finally. But I think also the tucked under the mattress thing is like they clean shit up and oh you knew that. You knew that. Oh yeah. It's more fun to think that.

It's more fun to think people throw cocaine up in the air to do it. Now I want to do that really badly. Confetti. Yeah they cut it really big. Yeah. They make her take parade. Come on.

Okay. When the cops go to talk to Roberta's mother Roberta's mother is like she does not do drugs. She's never done drugs in her life. That's not her style. And the cops are like mm-hmm. And but then when they

the anonymous female friend that did the coke with them for the first four hours her account of Roberta being groggy and almost falling asleep you may or may not know when they're on cocaine. They stay up and watch QVC. That's right. And they order and they order and they order

and they call again and say how much they like the necklace. Who are the people that call to say how much they like the necklace? What? Oh yeah. Come on. We've got. We've got. Debra on the line. How are you liking your necklace? Ladies I love this necklace. It goes right on my clavicle

and it is unlike any necklace I've ever bought on television. Now did your husband buy it for you for your birthday? No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm on so much coke I bought it myself. I bought seven and I'm wearing all of them right now and I'm licking the phone.

Also in addition so they all of it smells bad to the cops. They're like this guy is dirty and we know it. It smells foul. It smells what?

The cops are like I smell a duck. They're using the I smell a pig joke that's used against them and they're using against somebody else because that's how we make ourselves feel better. Quack, quack mother fucker. Did you just like quack quack mother fucker? Yes.

But I said it quietly because I wasn't sure because it's so stupid. That's when you double down and say it loudly. I was gone. Did you get there? Okay. I'm going to have you doing solid stand-up sets by the end of this tour.

Quack, quack mother fucker. Okay. So they hate him. They're like this guy is dirty. We don't have any evidence to arrest him. We have to put him under surveillance. Two days after his wife's death Lowell is seen

having a $1,000 dinner with two women that he later then has menage a toile with. Two days after the death of his wife? 48 hours and he's like this grief is killing me. I've got to eat and I got to fuck two women like immediately.

Wow. So then Roberta's autopsy report comes back and the Wayne County medical examiner reports that Roberta did have cocaine in her system but the problem was she had 15 times the amount that's typically seen

in a cocaine overdose. Shit. She had so much cocaine in her system that half of the drugs hadn't even been broken down yet. There were also traces of cocaine found inside her vagina but none on her body externally.

Also, the bed sheets were slightly soiled but her body was perfectly clean. Forensic scientist Dr. Phyllis Good found lipstick and tooth marks What does that mean? What does it mean?

That means someone fucking put a pillow over her face. Sorry. But Roberta wasn't wearing makeup when the cops found her and all of this adds up to this idea that her body was washed

in between the time that she died. Please tell me Bert and Dan didn't fucking help wash her body. I don't know. I'm not sure. These are the theories where it's like there's nothing on her outside. She's completely very clean.

The police talked to Roberta's friends and found out that she was afraid of Lowell and she was planning to leave him because she knew he was seeing other women. But they couldn't figure out a motive because he didn't stand to gain anything financially from her death. So it wasn't a clear cut case

until they start looking into Lowell Amos's past. Right? It turns out this wasn't the first time Lowell Amos was a widower. Before Roberta he had been married to a woman named Carolyn Lawrence. They lived in Middletown in Indiana

and according to their friends Lowell and Carolyn, that's right, heads up Middletown according to friends Lowell and Carolyn argued frequently about doing the dishes about him not being home enough. No. She was mad at him. I thought you were telling me that

those things and I was like, so the fuck what? Dishes. I was doing a call and response and not letting you answer me about doing the dishes. No. I didn't know. Yeah. I think I was right to skip it. She was mad at

her husband because he kept taking out huge life insurance policies on her. Yeah. That would piss me off. I mean, I think I'd get pretty mad about it. Fuck. Yeah.

So when he refuses to cancel them she ends up kicking him out. Yeah. Get away from me. Good move. And that was in 1987. For Vince, we actually could never take a life insurance policy out of each other because I would just freak the fuck out. Even if it's legitimate, you're supposed to do that.

Yeah, you have to. According to your accountants. She's like, no, we can't. You'll never do it. Poor guy. No, I'm terrified. If I do it. I want to say in front of everyone right now, if Karen kicks a life insurance policy out on me, it's not my signature. Okay. We'll see.

You guys all have to testify at the trial. It's a pretty easy signature to forge. It is. Have you all seen it? Okay. So, Carolyn kicks him out of the house because of the insurance problem. That issue that you have with every boyfriend. So this is 1987.

Lowell goes and moves in with a 76 year old mother, Mary Tolls. A few weeks later, Mary is brought into the emergency room. There's no diagnosis. They send her home. Three days later, she dies. So Lowell calls Carolyn and is like, my mother died.

So she comes over to the house, his mother's house, to go see him. And she finds him throwing all of his belongings into a car. And when she asks him what he's doing, he says, I don't want anybody to know that I moved into my mother's house. And she's like, that's what you're worried about right now. Yeah, that was his main

concern. See, he didn't want to seem like a nerd. So, she lets him move back in with her. Yes. I mean, so because his mother, Mary was 76 years old, no autopsy is performed on her and the

authorities presume that she died of natural causes. Therefore, Lowell inherits more than a million dollars. More than a million. So, nine months later, Carolyn Amos is found dead in her bathroom.

Lowell's statement to the police is that he had taken her a glass full of wine to the bathroom where she was blow drying her hair next to a full bathtub of water. Why would that? Okay, I mean, go on.

We've all seen the sticker on the blow dryer over all of our lives, I feel like, all of our lives we stared at that sticker. And we've looked at the sticker and said, who the fuck would blow dry their hair in the bathtub or near a bathtub full of water? It's stupid. Well, apparently,

he's claiming that she did. The one thing. That's like, that's like flushing a feminine hygiene product down the toilet. No one does it anymore. We've seen the signs. Oh god, I love... Three people in here are like, fuck, wait, what? You're not supposed to... I didn't know!

There's a speaker in the bathroom and my girl's like, what? She starts crying. Okay, so later, Lowell's statement of the police, he finds her dead in the bath

apparently electrocuted and no cause of death is ever determined. And the wine glass that he claimed to have brought up to her was not in the bathroom. It was down in the dishwasher, the dishwasher having been run. So it was perfectly clean with not a trace of anything

on it. Lowell received $800,000 from her insurance policy. Holy shit! Yes. So then in an M Night Shyamalan style twist. Oh my god, oh my god. Even further, it turns out that Carolyn started

out as Amos' mistress. Uh huh. He had been cheating on his first wife, Sandra, with Carolyn. Holy shit. But in 1979, Sandra was found dead in her bathroom. Stop it.

I can't. There's more papers. Okay, so they lived in Anderson, Indiana and a neighbor this year, the same lady from before quit fucking cheering for cities. I don't mean it.

So they had a neighbor when they lived in Anderson named Connie Alexander, and she told police that on the night of Sandra's death, Sandra was at her house, they were drinking beer together, chatting, and Sandra went home around 11 and then a few hours later,

there's a knock at the door. I'm scared. And Connie answers it. It's Sandra's little children. Oh no. And they say, something's wrong with mommy and the ambulance is stuck in the snow. So Connie's husband

runs out, helps dig the ambulance out of the snow and they take Sandra to the hospital, but she dies. What the fuck. So when Connie hears that she died, or was dead, she goes over to Lowell's

house to check in on him and she finds him burning something in the fireplace. But she doesn't know what it is. Lowell's statement to the police at the time was that Sandra had mixed wine with a sedative, collapsed, and hit her head in the bathroom. The cause

of her death was ruled indeterminate and Amos received a $350,000 insurance payout. Jesus. And then almost immediately, same year, he marries Carolyn. So on November 8th, 1996, Lowell

Amos was arrested for the murder of Roberta. Okay. To a 1994 change in Michigan law, the prosecution was allowed to enter all of these previous facts about his life and his murder. So amazing.

Thank God. So they could introduce all those facts into trial. Prosecutors also argued that although Lowell lacked a financial motive for killing Roberta, as he had for his other three wives, his, I mean, his two wives and his mother, his fucking own mother,

his marriage was about to end. Roberta actually had already bought her own house and she had told family and friends that she wanted Lowell out of her life. And the prosecution theorized that he killed her because he could not stand that rejection. He was always

the one that was making the women go away. He was always the one that was in charge of that. And the fact that somebody was leaving him and had already, you know, taken off, they theorized that he couldn't handle that. They said that he first gave her a glass of wine with

two crushed sedatives in it, which is reflective of that woman's story that she seen groggy. And then when she passed out, he injected her vagina with the cocaine dissolved in water. And then smothered her with a pillow when she began to convulse.

On October 24th, 1996, Lowell Amos was convicted of premeditated murder and murder using a toxic substance. On November 4th, 1996, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

When his sentence was read, he said to the judge who was apparently a little bit young if you can imagine the fucking brass balls on this guy, he says to the judge, you're a young judge. I hope this is the first time and the last time you

have to sentence an innocent man. Oh, what a dick. But judge Jeffrey Collins was unmoved is what this article said. He described Amos as a dangerous killer without a conscience and he was quoted as saying, thank God for the safety of our community

you will be locked up for the rest of your natural days. Yeah. No charges were ever brought in the cases of Mary Tolles, Carolyn Lawrence or Sandra Hurd. And if you want to see a dramatized version of the story

just told you it was the subject of a 2006 lifetime movie called Black Widower. That's Lil Amos everybody. Wow. Good job. If he's talking

about insurance that's a red flag. Look out. If he keeps on handing you glasses of wine with white shit in it that's a red flag. There's no tune to this song. I'm working. I'm improving it.

If the mortar and pestle is always in the dishwasher that's a red flag. You know what I'm saying? If he kills his mother that's a red flag. This is true. This is true. Hey.

It's time for a hometown murder. Alright. In a very special moment I get a question. It's been so fun to see you all. I'm listening. I'm going to pick someone. This doesn't happen a lot.

This better be good. A certain kind of way. It needs to be concise. No. Wait. Sorry. Yes. Over here.

Did you just pick seven people? I'm sorry. I'm never doing this again. Sorry. This is why I don't do this. I'm sorry. I'm going to hug her after the show. Hi.

Hi. Hi. What's your name? Hi, Crystal. Crystal. You have to take center stage. Come out here. Hi.

Crystal, where are you from? I'm from Detroit. Yeah. What's up? Show us on the thing where the... Just point. Wrong hands. That's where Vince always points.

Everyone knows. You are here. You are here. What's your hometown? This is a family murder. It's really fucked up. She goes, I know. Fucked up.

It's two murders over two years. Several murders. Whatever the case. Two or seven. I thought you said seven. It starts with one year my cousin on his birthday. He's an amazing artist.

He's celebrating. It's amazing. My cousin, who is a police officer is like, oh, there's a body in the river. And she goes, investigates. They pull the body out. It's my cousin.

Wait, so the police officer... Is my cousin. And then had to pull their own cousin. Is our soul our cousin. Sorry, in your police officer cousin is a woman? That's awesome. That's exciting. That is exciting.

But also, this is horrible. They pull him out. They don't know what fucking happened. He's dead. It's awful. His roommate was with him. They're like, what happened? He's like, we were drinking. And then he's like, I want to hang up on myself.

So he leaves. And then he's dead. So we're like, oh, no, no. This seems sketchy. Whatever the case. My uncle, his dad is like, you know what? It's hard. The next year,

my cousin, his brother of the dead person, he's going to college. He's getting his master's degree. He's in Atlanta. He comes back. He's like, this is weird. Whatever the case,

he does whatever he needs to do. He gets a CCW for some random reason. What's that? Conceal weapons license. When you say that he says this is weird, my uncle wants to investigate what happened with his brother. But my uncle was like, I'm sad.

My son's dead. I just want to move on. It's over. I don't want to investigate anymore. So my cousin's like, whatever. So years later, I met this part, not years later, a year later, I met a party randomly

for someone I don't know. That's nearly here and there. Was it fun? It was a surprise party for somebody I didn't know. So awkward. You're like, surprise, I'm here. It was kind of. My friend's like, oh, we're having a party,

but only four people are here. Can you come? It was free drinks and food. So I came. It was fun. We had drinks. And I'm leaving and my aunt calls and she's like, hey, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm driving to a date.

She's like, well, can you pull over? What do you mean? She's like, no, seriously, pull over. So I pull over. Turns out my other cousin, the brother of the person who died the year before, that morning, it's a Sunday. It's three days after Thanksgiving.

He goes to the neighbor's house. He's like, knocks on the door. The neighbor wife answers. She's like, what's going on? He's like, hey, turn that music down. She's like, we're not playing any music. He's like, yes, you are. She's like, no, I'm not.

She goes to get her husband. Her husband comes back. My cousin shoots the husband down on the front porch. So then he goes back into their house and he shoots my uncle. The uncle who didn't want to investigate?

The uncle who didn't want to investigate. His father. His father. So the wife obviously calls the police. My cousin goes into the basement. The police for several hours. And then my cousin kills himself. Wow.

It's fucking awful. I'm telling you this on the phone while I'm on the way to a date with this dude. Date canceled. No, the date wasn't canceled. Damn. Carol's down here.

I really needed a drink after that. Okay. That's fair. I'm not married. I'm divorced. Oh, my God. Okay. It was the summer of Stevens. Not that Steven. I dated an old Steven.

A married Steven. And then the third Steven that I was going on the date with I found out that night was fucking married. That's a bad night. Jesus. Was it Friday the 13th? It was Thanksgiving.

Is there investigation into the first cousin or is it just... We never really figured out what happened. I'm so sorry. It was really sad. I broke up with that Steven. To make matters worse. So that part was good.

Oh, Crystal. I mean, that was very healthy. And we commend you for that. Let's silver lining this shit. Let's silver lining it. Yeah, Crystal. I mean, that's amazing. That's amazing.

Oh, my God. Thank you, Carol. I mean, right? Yeah, you don't get to keep that. That's not your prize for having a good hometown murder, Crystal. I want to apologize for the fact that I clearly have a pointing issue.

This is how I point in one person and I apologize to the wonderful ladies I clearly pointed at, too. That was a great pick. You nailed it. Great job. Oh, my God, Detroit. We just got to do two amazing shows with you guys.

Thank you so much. It's ridiculous that we get to do this at all. We have the best time. It's so fun and it's because you guys support us so much. Definitely. We really, really love each and every one of you. I don't know what the fuck I'm saying.

Thank you guys for coming. Thanks for waiting in that long line. Potentially in the rain. It was raining for five minutes. Thank you guys for coming again. Fucking mitten murdering us. You guys are awesome. You're amazing.

Thank you for the flash. Thank you. Bye. Thank you.