My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 26 - Twenty Six Six Six

Episode Date: July 22, 2016

Karen and Georgia freak out over presents from listeners, then get dark with two child murders: Mary Bell and Lisa Steinberg.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Let's start now. Let's start right now. Let's start right now. Fireworks, baby you're a firework. Whole building collapses. Someone on some social media site said that they almost got in a car accident when they heard the firework because they thought it was a gunshot. Oh no. I know. Oh, sorry we were just as scared as you were. We were more scared because as loud as it was on the podcast, it was fucking 15 times louder in real life. Yeah, you're fine.

Sorry. It was very, very scary, surprising and to me funny. It's hilarious. It keeps happening though so it might happen again tonight. And what is it? September? I mean how much longer? I don't know. So prepare yourself and your dogs because I'm sure people, some people has, they were like, thunder jackets off, but. I tried to put a Thunder shirt on George one time. Yeah. And when I came home, it was eaten. Yes. It was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone. I know, I know that well. I put a collar on my cat once and came back and it was like, here's what I think of it. Yeah. Get fuck yourself. Get fuck. I mean, I wouldn't want to fucking collar. I mean, I guess I did when I was 14 and thought I was punk. I work. I mean,

that was the 90s, right? It was, wasn't it? It was all about cat collars and shit back then. Yeah. Fake punk rock. Totally. I still have mine. It still smells like, like Victoria's Secret apple spray, apple body spray. Oh, no. Oh, no. Do you mean sorrow? Yeah. Yep. It still smells like ecstasy. Yeah. Hey, how are you? How was your week? What's going on? Hi. I've just been working. Oh, this is my favorite murder. Oh, guys, listen. I mean, I figure if you press play on this, you probably know that. If you're one of those rando people that just goes through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play. No one's ever done that, right? No, I seriously doubt it. But welcome. If you're that one person and you're the lone wolf.

Hi. If you're new to this, I'm Georgia. That's Karen. I'm Karen. This is my voice. Karen was the one singing. I do that because it's my passion. That's her passion and she's good at it. And I am not. Well, I disagree that I'm bad at that. I'm bad. You disagree that you're good at it. I disagree that you're bad at it. Thank you. Because I've heard you do it jokingly and it's not bad. Oh, yeah. It's not. I guess the secret is not to try. Or care. Or care. Yeah, that's true. Of life, right? Of anything. Yeah, of anything at all. Speaking of last episode, I read a hometown murder at the end that caused me to need to talk about it during therapy. Oh, no. The punk rock finger one? Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's heavy. And I didn't. I skimmed over the

middle for everyone. I kind of told you a little bit about it, but I accidentally read the whole thing to myself. Yes. And it was so awful. And I for like a week, I kept picturing the girl who'd gotten killed in a way that like I haven't been pretty good at like being okay with this topic that we talk about in study all the time. Yes. But that one really fucked me up. I bet. Well, well, the idea that it's this girl alone at a concert. No, her finger was at a concert. She was hitchhiking. She was okay. That's a bad mistake. This is how much I couldn't read it. It's like I just didn't tell any of the details. But was she hitchhiking alone? She was hitchhiking alone, got picked up by three guys

like her age. I can't remember if she knew them. I know it was the 90s. She didn't know them if she was hitchhiking. She didn't know them. Yeah. Unless you're saying unless they were she knew them from town. Yeah. But it's like I started picturing all the times that I have done things that stupid when I was younger and why was it her that that happened to and how horrifying those last few minutes were and what like I just have I just go there. Yeah. I understand. But my therapist really helped me so now better. Would she say just give us some overalls? Well, I have this problem with like daydreaming so deep that I'm there. Yes. And I don't even notice it. And so she says before you get into those daydreams, you just give yourself a second

of awareness that you're going into them before that happens. It'll rewire your neurons and you won't just like be true. It's like a moment of clarity and then then you can do it. You should but and then also since I'm gone mentally to be like what is that lamp look like what are my hands touching right now what does this feel like just to be really present in the moment. So you can tell the difference between imagining something that you think may have happened right in reality. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not in reality anymore. Yeah. So like just point out things in your brain that are actually in front of you and happening. That's good. Yeah. I would add breathing on top of that. I constantly hold my breath. You do. And I just have to remind myself

and do weird like deep. Yeah. Just simple breathing because I'm gone and breathing isn't even part of it anymore. No. And holding my breath makes me feel like I'm going to get through it better. Yeah. Or something and that's almost like you're pausing reality. Yeah. And so breathing isn't even part of it. I do that so much but oftentimes it's to fight with people in my head. Oh I do that too. Like to present arguments and you're really good at it in your head. So good at it in my head. And they listen because you're right. And I move them with my words. Yeah. And they stop acting like dicks. Yeah. That's all completely fantasy. The idea that any of that is how it works. Right. Total fantasy. The reality is that you're just crying and angry and then can't say

anything. And then you kind of the words come out like this a little bit. I just want to say and look here's the thing. I understand. Why can't we be sociopaths. Staring down unblinkingly staring at a person while you're like I don't forgive you. Yeah. I feel like this is not an official thing as as is every other thing I say on this podcast. Not an official thing ever. This is the unofficial corner. Oh my god. Someone pointed out and made a fake graph. This made me laugh so hard on the Facebook page when I made the correction. I said one when I made the correction in one in four. I said that one in four people were sociopaths and my correction was 25 percent of people. Someone made a graph and it made me laugh so hard. That is amazing. Oh shit people.

Everyone is so funny. So here's a good segue into the presence we just got. I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that I gave myself. Okay. Can I just explain this very quickly. So we had Georgia had a little pile of presence waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work. Not this isn't my home. And it was like I waited for you so we can open these up. Yeah. We wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever. And one of them I opened to because Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous like Karen's face. So I'll go. I was like I'll go ahead and take the hit. I mean you're off camera talent. I can have the eye patch. All you need are your brain. And I would love for my teeth to be blown out so I can have get some awesome

veneers anyhow. So I did the first two and Georgia's like I said she picked up the third one and I said do you want me to open that. And she was like I can do it. I'm not that insane or whatever it was you said. And then she went to open it and stabbed herself in the bare leg with a pair of scissors and it I have to tell you as painful as I'm sure it is it's also hilarious. It's one of those things and this happens to me a lot where I'm glad it happened because it's worth it. Like I run into stuff all the time and and like do dumb shit and I'm like I'm so glad that that happened. Yes. That's humor and life. Instead of just when you look down and have a rando. That's the second time I said that word and I've never really said it before at all. Interesting. What's going on.

What teen boy am I trying to impress. When you look down and you there's just a huge bruise for no reason. Or you're just like do this is mean I have blood cancer. Yeah. Why. The majority of my bruise is like don't remember getting and it's not because I'm constantly drunk. I'm not. You're not. And I and I mean when I'm drunk I'm smooth as shit too. Like I'm good. I'm much better in person when I'm drunk. When you're drunk what I notice is that you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes on. Yeah. You just have a big smile on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and like enjoyable. It seems like. Yeah. I like I think I like understand moments so much better and understand people and get get life better. Yeah. Which is like somewhat healthy.

But I think maybe I'm not anxious. Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm amused and not anxious. Deep down under underneath. Yeah. When you use beer to uncover your true personality. Well we got some. Oh my god. Amazing. Yes. We just had it like a baby July Christmas. Dude. What was that. Someone slamming the door but it sounded like a gun. That sounded like a half firework to me. Yeah. It did. All right. We start. We got a beautiful card that's the sparkliest thing. It's gorgeous. With the really funny cute joke on the front and really great printing inside. Beautiful printing. The kind of printing I wish I could do but I don't understand why that looks the way it does. I might do this. I might trace over the handwriting later. It's so satisfying. Can you try that?

I've never done it. It's from this card is from Emily and she just said a bunch of lovely things and it was it's basically a thank you card for our podcast which is the cutest thing of all time. She was raised well. Girl and she likes a card. We'd like to thank her parents for this card. Mr. and Mrs. Emily's parents. Right. Move on to the next one. Then we got from Candice. She sent us this really fucking rad hurt. She's going to start doing murder zines and the first one is the murder scene is called the Matilda effect and the first one is about Francis Glesner Lee. There are women in science scenes. Oh, I thought they were murder. No, they're women in science. Women in science scenes. Sorry. But the first one

is about a woman who did she want to be a cop? Did that card say? Yeah. She wanted to be a scientist. She wanted to be she's basically if you guys have seen the documentary the nutshell studies where she really this woman way back when really wanted to be a doctor or nurse and she wasn't allowed to because of her family. I think she was a rich I think she was from a wealthy family. So instead she started to make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes. So she just made miniature crime scenes so that cops could study them without screwing up the crime scene. And she's just had this huge effect on on crime scene procedure. And she's incredible. I love Candice. You can get these at smutpunks. It's smutpunx.com.

And she's going to make she makes other buttons and stuff and she just makes it and I haven't seen a fucking zine in real life in so long. I know. Did you make a zine? No, I never did. I made a zine for it's like a tribute to Ray Bradbury and Delight. Combined? Yeah. Wow. Because those are the two things you like. That's what I liked when I was 16. So seeing a zine is like exciting. It's very cool. And I think you should I think we should all support zines. You know what I did was I just assumed that Candice made a zine for all the things I like instead of what she's interested in women in science. This was yeah it was it was specifically for me. Well it is a true crime subject. Yes. So and so fascinating if you get

it's called the nutshell. What's the documentary called the nutshell studies. You gotta watch it. Yeah, she's it's great. Candice. Thank you. Thank you so much. Please keep remaining to be a badass. Then we got my god this amazing puzzle from Holly. She said Karen and Georgia thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders. I made a puzzle about mine. Thought you might like it. Like it. Yeah. We fucking lost our minds. I'm so excited. I kind of like I kind of begged Karen for it. It's a it's a 3D puzzle of H. H. Holmes murder castle in Chicago which is the best thing of all time. So I think everybody probably knows but if you're if you just started liking true crime right H. H. Holmes they're I think they're going to make the Devil in the White City

movie with Leo DiCaprio. And you can get this at where can you get her the puzzle. Yeah wait wait. Okay. You can get Holly Cardin dot com. So it's H-O-L-L-Y-C-A-R-D-E-N. And I think she's going to start just making true crime puzzles. That's amazing. I cannot wait to make this. I'll take photos. It's very cool. So anyway she started off with H. H. Holmes murder castle which you can watch the movie. It's the best story ever if you get creeped out by by premeditated planned psycho murder. This is the story for you. And I would do it but they did it on last podcast on the left. I know. I am not. It's been done a lot. It's been done a lot. And it's very well known and a movie's going to come out. So we let we let we it got taken care of in our minds.

And finally. Oh my god. And then finally Bethany who Bethany Jones I'm assuming these people are okay with their names being said. Yeah. I think they want a shout out which they would absolutely. So Bethany Jones is from the base element makeup bath and body I would call it company. And she sent us her card says I hope you like your names sake lipsticks. I loved creating them while listening to your podcasts all of your podcasts one after the other. I twitch. And fittingly when I was done my kitchen looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red to the elbows. I've got a bit rock and roll and made skull bath bombs in your honor to see what an inspiration you are. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. It's so awesome. This box smelled we could smell

the bath bombs from outside. That's why it wasn't a bomb because I feel like they wouldn't go to the trouble of making it pleasant. A soapy bomb. Oh my god. I didn't think about that. Yeah. That's right. You were right. See you're right all along. I'm psychic but bombs can be good bombs can be good. So we we just got a shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip scrub and eye shadow. A lot of them are named like have quotes from the podcast. There's a fucking lip balm called Elvis want to cookie. And once we got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it Elvis lost his fucking mind because he thought he was getting one so I had to give him one. Yeah we kept saying Elvis. I won't say it again. I know. But yeah there's I mean our names are on he on lip balms.

This is this is right up my alley. So she's going to make them. She just wanted us to get the first ones which is so fucking cool. Yeah. So you can go to the the base element at Etsy. Yeah. And by murdering now and non murdering now. You guys we can have our own makeup line. Fucking love this podcast from Bethany. It's so cool. It's very cool. Thank you for our gifts. Totally worth it to open up to open you up to danger. I know. And get that pot that P.O. box. Hey look that's plenty of presents. That's plenty. I'm okay with the P.O. I talked to my therapist about it. I really fucking lost my shit this last week. I talked to her about it. I got some pepper spray. The reality is it's not going to fucking I mean what are the chances that's going to happen.

It's not. Then I get scared when you say that. I'm sorry. All right. If you really really want to find it and if you actually have something that you're making that's like legit you can have the P.O. box. Also there's 80 million ways to contact us so that you could probably say hey here's what I'm going to send you. Totally. And here's a copy of my driver's license so that if I do harm you in any way. Right. And now we have evidence. I can't be contacted. Evidence. It's all on the internet. So that was present. Present. That was present corner. What we call present corner. We do have a little some other housekeeping. Oh yeah I have a couple things. Okay really quickly and then we'll get to my favorite murder. We want to promote two shows

that we're going to be guests on. One of them is coming up on the 27th of July. It's next week. It is our friend Jamie Lee who's a very funny comedian. She and her husband Dan have a live show called Date Night and we're going to be guests on it on the panel. The 27th you said. The 27th. That's Wednesday. At 8 p.m. at UCB Franklin. So if you live in LA it's the good UCB not the stupid one on Sunset. Careful. Is that okay? Everyone knows that right. I love you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Susan who works at UCB. Susan. I'm sorry. Listen to me Susan. I love you. And then we're going to be guests on the 200th episode of The Dollop and it's a live show and we're going to be guests. We're the two guests with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds.

The Dollop is a very popular bi-weekly history podcast where they tell the craziest stories. So fucking excited for this. It's at the Meltdown of course in Los Angeles. It's on August 16th. It's at 7 p.m. It's gonna fucking sell out. $12 tickets. Oh yeah and it's 7 p.m. show which anytime I'm booked on a 7 p.m. show I either miss it entirely or seven minutes before it starts I remember that it's seven and not eight. And the whole time you're like I hate you what the fuck is wrong. Yes. So do you want me to remind you a couple times? Yes please. Yes. You would do that. That would help me a lot. You got it. And then so that's some promotion corner and then... Podfest is coming up September 23rd. Yeah. That's a future. That's a future one. That's

it's that weekend of September 23rd. We're not sure which day we are booked yet but I think the way it works is that you buy a pass for like either a day or the weekend but it's they've done it now a couple years. I think this is either the third or fourth year and it's super fun and very cool. Yeah. And they get amazing podcasts. I've always wanted to be on it. I've been secretly like I hate the popular kids and then I'm like oh the popular kids wanna hang out with me. Oh my god that's so cool. I'm in with the popular kids. Then when you get in with the popular kids you're like what a bunch of fucking nerds. I miss my nerdy friends. It happens every time. We at some point need to talk about how we went to the live last podcast on a left show. Can we talk about

it right now? Really? Yeah. Let's talk about Karen and I this past weekend thanks to fucking Mark. So Vince my husband is friends with all of them from comedy. From New York. From New York. And I kind of was like hey will you ask Marcus who he's good friend Marcus Parks what t-shirt company they use to get their shirts printed but it was totally just a ruse to get him to fucking know about the podcast and he told he said to Vince oh I didn't know it's your wife I love the podcast tell them thank you so much for all the shout outs and then we both just collectively lost our minds. Yes. Georgia texted me that he said that and I it was like a six text exchange of freak out. Yeah and then he gave us tickets to their live show that was last weekend and we went. Oh my god it was if you

liked that podcast it was five times funnier in person. They watched they showed this crazy old with Swedish or Swiss. It's called Hexed. Hexum. It was a silent movie about witches. The terror of witches and who was that was it William Burroughs who was the speaker. Anyways. Yeah yeah it was. Yeah. The old drug addict guy. Yeah who just is a I don't know why he narrates anything. Someone's going to get real pissed about me saying that. What'd you just say? I thought it was a terrible narration. Yeah he's on heroin. Yeah he's not good at voiceover. Well then they just told jokes over like talked about it over it and it was so funny and they're all like the fucking nicest dudes and they were their jokes were hilarious and they were it was very cool and there was a the whole

place was sold out it was a huge crowd who were going bananas. Yeah. So anyone who's a fan the last podcast on the left you would have been very proud. Yeah and and yeah it turns out they're awesome and you are correct. Yeah. Cool. Goodbye. Bye thank you. No and also we have an Instagram account. Oh god go to it follow it instagram.com slash my favorite murder. There'll be photos of all the shit we got. Lots of other shit. I post a lot of stuff up there. Where'd you go just now? Deep inside. I saw it. I'm a little warm because we had to shut we had to shut the apartment down for recording purposes which is good but I got a little warm and then I'm just to be totally honest. Oh no. No it was a good thing. I'm just excited that about the pants I'm wearing. I swear

to god. I literally was gonna say well you can take your pants off if you want if you're hot. No I'm excited because they are kind of thick but they're uh I just haven't worn them in a long time. Tell us about your pants. It's a real victory. Let's tell each other let's tell everyone about the other person's outfit. You have these cute jeans on. They're just old lucky jeans but I've I stopped eating sugar and now I can wear all my old clothes again. How do you feel? You look fucking incredible. Thank you. I feel a thousand times better. You seem like a waker? I'm much more awake and I'm less infuriated at all times. Also it turns out that you have the sharpest cheekbones I've ever seen anyone have in my life. I didn't know. Well they were way

under all my fat face. You know I just needed I was taking a five-year break from society and so I decided I'm coming back now and so I get to wear small pants and you know shirts that I actually like. I can see your arms. You can see my tan tan tan arms. Every time I look at my arms I think of you freaking out how tan my arm looked at. You're very tenuous. Low cut I mean for us. Yeah. For girls like us. Low cut. It's very low cut and my whole red bra is showing. Yeah. No just kidding. Hey I'm Mike Corey the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground

planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort but the trail quickly runs dry as the air supply for the trapped children dwindles a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Cool. Oh George is wearing a romper. It's top a sleeveless romper strapless romper. I'm wearing I'm just showing everything. She kind of is it looks like she has an old fashioned bathing suit on. Yeah. That's our girl though. She's a naturalist and she let she's body proud. Yeah I just also sweat a lot so I just wear as little as possible. I mean Los Angeles is in front of various turning into a desert. It is. It's far back into a desert. Back in. Yeah the

earth is taking Los Angeles back into its natural form. This whole time I thought that global warming wasn't a thing and then now you're convinced. Now I know because of your romper the number of rompers that you have to buy and wear. I think it's a conspiracy that Target is playing to get to sell rompers. Hey do you want to talk about our favorite murders. We might as well. Skippers come back to us. It's time. I think you're first. Is it me. I think so. The murder that I chose this week. Yes Karen. In my favorite murder is one that's always it's been one that like the first time I read it I couldn't I would have to turn my eyes away from the page because it is horrible and horrifying but also like there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy.

It's about Mary Bell the child child killer. Fuck yeah. The childhood child killer. Yes. Now what I realized in looking through my researchers my research searches today I mean from weeks ago. Right for when all that research even. Just piles and piles every night I go to the the city library like Morgan Freeman and I let the guy play. It's the same one from a Ghostbusters first Ghostbusters movie right the big huge cavernous ghosty. Yes I go down in the basement where the very old dead ghost librarian and micro fish is involved. You scroll micro fish for hours hours. So in the pictures of Mary Bell which we should put up on the Instagram page I will. That's what I look like when I was little. Exactly. So I've always had a bit of a connection

to Mary Bell in certain ways. But I also know and we got called out. I think it was on I can't remember the woman the girl's name but the girl that shot up the the school. I don't like my name. Oh my god. Mary anyway. Sorry. Lisa that girl we kind of got there's a couple people are like we were being too sympathetic to her being like too nice when normally we're mean if it's like a man and it's older we're mean and like hang them high. I disagree with that. I know. I mean everyone has a lot to say about every single thing but I see that point. I'm not going to argue. I agree. Well I brought it up because I was thinking is that home going to be about Mary Bell. But the truth is I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath. I think she anytime she seems sympathetic it's

because she's trying to seem sympathetic. Right. I think she is like I think she's nightmare like we need to talk about Kevin. Yeah. The bad seed. She is the reality of all of that fiction evil child. Right. Like nothing can be done. Now I think there's a reason she's that way. I don't she may have been born that way because they do talk about how she from an early age like didn't bond but she had this fucking crazy mother either way to me. I'm I'm just want to say it at the start. I'm not defending her. I'm not defending Mary Bell. Okay. But I also want to say another thing about it. Whenever there's like a child molester or murder or someone we talk about their past and we're like yeah that sucks. Are we split. I don't I don't think we were softer on her.

I don't either. I think we're always like investigating the past of the person who's killing people that doesn't exonerate them from. But I think sometimes you know when it's personal opinion which is all all of this podcast is. Yeah. Sometimes more empathy will come out even if you have it you won't express it like I don't have a ton of empathy for Richard Ramirez even though we did get hit in the swing and the worst uncle in the world. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. We're just saying it's understandable that this person didn't become a normal member of society. Yes. And for me that's what's interesting to me. Yeah. When you can when it's not just oh you were born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize

with other human beings. That's one thing. But like if there is like a little path you could have been normal. Totally. If you didn't experience this parent or this aunt or whatever is some awful pit that you fell in in your childhood. That to me that's like that's really what's fascinating. That's the study. That's the study. Yeah. The the the effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped and did all these horrible things. That's the effect. You know there's a cause and effect. Yeah. Et cetera. Yeah. And the cause is fascinating. Right. And if I had A in education B didn't have ADD I would probably read up on it a ton and become some type of a of a learned expert about it. Me too. And instead. Instead I have I work in TV

so I am rewarded for not paying attention to anything. But we do have a true crime podcast so I think we're good. I think we're basically doing that. Yeah. Yeah. We're doing our best. Anyhow. Sorry. Go on. No. So I've I've always found Mary Bell fucking fascinating. So this happened in 1968. Actually I thought it happened a lot longer ago. That's cool. 68. Yeah. And it happened in New in the inner city suburb of Newcastle in England. That's Stephen King's town. Right. No. No. In England. Never mind. Newcastle. No. Newcastle Rock. It's Castle Rock. Oh yeah. Castle Rock. Yeah. He's all about Maine. Can we just strike all of that from the record. Yes. Absolutely. We're going to go in and edit this down so good. No we're not. No we're not at

all. And we never do. OK. So she was born to a unwed unstable 17 year old sex worker named Betty McCrickett. And Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances just dumped her off anytime she could because she had to go. She I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot and work as a sex worker. Even as a non 17 year old sex worker that I was the thought of having a child at 17. Nightmare. Nightmare. It's just it's what a great opportunity for a ton of bad decisions. Like this one where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside an abortion clinic shut up. Yeah. Betty was doing it. So her apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished. And the Betty's family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary

more than once in her first few years of life and tried to make it look accidental. So they all became very suspicious when Mary quote unquote fell out a window and drama possibly. And also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills. What the fuck. So they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills iron pills and apparently Mary sorry Betty would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy. There are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had munchausens by proxy which is the the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child. And so they make the child sick on purpose.

It's basically what happened in the movie seven. Right. When he when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house. That's a great scene. No. Not seven fucking. And the other movie the sixth sense our brains are syncing up because that was just. Oh you know what's so hilarious. Yeah. We're we're it's like our mistake brains are like I did the same thing where when I was talking about the Polly class murder I called it. I called it Cloverfield which is a movie and the city name where her body was found is Clover Dale and Adrian my friend whole time you called it that. Yeah. But I think I only said it once Adrian texted me and she's like dude it's Cloverdale. You you went there for softball games.

What are you doing. And I just like she's like I'm the only one to notice but seriously it's a monster movie. Yeah. Grow up. Maybe you were just trying to protect the town. So people like so lucky lose wouldn't show up there. That's right. That's what you were doing. Just stay away from Cloverfield. So bad news obviously and in her upbringing and so of course at school Mary was known as a chronic liar disruptive people. She on occasion would voice her desire to hurt people. She did a lot of kicking and punching and lying and so all the kids they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess. And later on it it sorry I was trying to figure out where when a good but basically later on it came to be discovered that Mary's

mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four. So she I guess is another thing that does fascinate me. This is another thing that like that kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality. So she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that that probably plays into the psychopathy and the behavior. Yeah you're like this isn't a safe world. Nothing is safe. I need to fucking defend myself. And I want to start hurting others the way I'm being hurt. And it's a way that it's normal. It's the way children yeah it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt. Right. When they're no they know they're not allowed to talk about it. Right. Fascinating.

Totally. Okay so on May 25th 1968 two boys playing in an abandoned house found the corpse of four-year-old Martin Brown lying in an upstairs room. Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell who was not related to her they just had the same last name followed the boys inside the house and when the police arrived the two girls had to be ordered out. So they really liked looking at this dead body. How old were they? Mary was just about to turn 11. Okay. And Norma Bell was 13 but Mary was the dominant of the two. Sure. Like a little more mature and smart. There was no obvious cause of death so it was assumed that Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle which was found nearby. So the next day Norma Bell's father caught Mary

choking Norma and he slapped her face and sent her home. She was choking her so bad. Holy shit. The day after this little boy died. And later that same day a local nursery school was vandalized and police discovered notes that read fuck off spelt f-u-c-h-o-f we murder watch out fanny and faggot. Faggot does not mean faggot in England. Just a quick reminder to everybody. I think it means cigarette. Yeah. Fanny is a butt. Fanny means you're pussy. It does. Yeah. In over there. At least I know it does in Ireland. You're right. Yeah. So I think they're just trying to write. Okay. I'm not sure. Maybe they meant it bad. If they're writing fanny they might have meant faggot in the bad way. Who knows. They also wrote we did murder Martin Brown. Fuck off

you bastard. Again off with one F. So it really says fuck off. The cops dismissed the when they found the writing they dismissed it as a prank. So four days later Mary Bell appeared at the Brown residents asking to see Martin and when she was reminded that Martin was dead. Wait. She showed up. She showed up at the dead boy's house asking to see him and when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead. It was the mother that answered the door and when the mother said he's dead. Mary said oh I know he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin. Oh my god. Can you. Oh what would you do. I'd scream. I'd run screaming. I mean a little girl too. Yeah. Who's yeah. Okay. So two months later three year old Brian Howe goes missing and a median search is

mounted and Mary Bell tells Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot and which is where he was discovered dead from manual strangulation legs and stomach and penis mutilated with a razor and a pair of scissors the police discover at the scene the letters M and N were scratched into his stomach. Oh fuck. So as the investigation narrows Mary so so somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids around that pile of stones that day and then when they took the three year old's body into the corner he said it looks like he's strangled but it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer. Oh my god. So then the cops went around and started interviewing

all the kids in the neighborhood and Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing. Mary acted super weird. They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was and Norma couldn't stop giggling. Holy shit. So Mary when when the investigation got narrowed on to Mary Bell she suddenly remembered seeing an eight year old boy with Brian on the day he died and she said that the boy hit Brian for no reason and that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors but the boy she was naming a specific boy she was basically trying to pin it on him but he had been at the airport that afternoon and so the thing that Mary didn't know is that the scissors were confidential evidence no one knew about the scissors. Oh Mary

this is what happens when you're a fucking 10 year old murderer is that you didn't you don't understand. You can't keep your shit in line. Dude. Yeah. So baffling. She essentially implicates herself with the scissor comment and she had described them exactly so she's trying to pin it on the other boy and in doing so she's like they were silver colored and some there was something wrong with them like one leg was either broken or bent so she basically describes the exact scissors to a T. I mean smart smart smart investigating by the cops that they like figured this shit out pretty quickly and can you imagine sitting in an in a room across from a 11 year old girl when you see this picture big blue eyes little button nose kind of vacant just think baby Karen but just

think baby Karen I was precious lamp but she's lying to you so you're buying her at first and then she'd give she does the old inglorious bastards holding up a three and you don't even want it to be true like you're not even like we're gonna get this guy it's like wait a second you just said this wrong thing creepy enough that the coroner says yeah probably gonna want to look for a kid because a kid strangled a three-year-old so you probably don't want it to be true you probably children of your own and this little girl is like yeah the scissors I mean the chill that would go down your back so okay I did the slidey thing again which I always do so Brian Howe was buried on August 7th and the the investigative detective was named detective Dobson and he was there and

he says Mary Bell was standing in front of the house house when the coffin was brought out I of course was watching her and it was when I saw her there that I knew I did not dare risk another day she stood there laughing laughing and rubbing her hands I thought my god I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one holy shit so they bring in Mary Bell why are you laughing psychopath because it's me she's also rubbing her hands together right now because I'm picturing it and it's like how they why don't they make this movie it's the creepiest thing of all time seriously this is like the the ring except for the girl has her hair back out of her face and she's like she thinks she's getting away with it she wanted to kill that little kid she killed him and then

she wanted to see his dead body yet carried out of the house it's just it was so crazy as the like you know when you when adults kill they like try really hard to hide it and try to outsmart people that's like what you do but this little person who I guess you can argue didn't understand that either death was permanent or what it meant maybe maybe maybe or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it she you know because there was some a killer that we talked about where they said I want people to feel on the outside the way I feel on the inside yeah was that the one of those Cheshire murders yeah no or was it the person you talked about yeah no either way this is factual factual fact-based it's that thing of like when you finally feel

right in the world is when like that's how she felt right she killed that she had the power to take his life away and put him in that box she finally had the power but she also had to be a little bit like arrested in her and yes she couldn't be smart enough she couldn't have been smarter than a 10 year old she was just didn't understand right from wrong you don't think so go on because this word gets crazy oh my god this is where this is where well this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying um I think his name was Billy Bell and he was like a career criminal and so they clearly talked about being arrested going in and out of jail and all this stuff because when she's arrested first of all when they say you're going to be

charged with murder she said that's all right by me wow um and uh she she sorry when she was in jail there was a stray cat in jail oh fuck and Elvis cover your ears yeah Elvis you're not going to like this she grabbed the cat no tightly by the neck and the guard told her not to hurt the cat and Mary Mary allegedly replied oh she doesn't feel that in any way I like hurting little things that can't fight back in another incident a police woman said that Mary said she'd like to be a nurse quote because then I can stick needles into people I like hurting people oh my god so there was kind of a naive quality about it then also the jailers once she was in there she calmed down a little bit after a while and a lot of the jailers liked her the guards you

know because they said she was very smart she she was very sharp but um she was a chronic bed wetter oh yeah and she's got one of the pieces probably two if we count those being overdosed on drugs by your mother and dropped out of a window sure probably got two at least um what's the other one fires fire yeah okay no no report a fire on her but um she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was going to wet the bed and uh she said to one of the guards I usually do um and at home her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed so she would rub her daughter's face in the pee when she found it and she would hang the mattress outside so the neighborhood would see it and we also all know that chronic bed wetting is a sign that you're being sexually

molested sexually abused it can it can be okay I was a chronic bed wetter me too until I was like nine and I was not molested me neither um but but it is a sign it's like it's one of those things that harming animals like all those things that's a child that's in trauma and in danger definitely it's signs of definitely um so when they went to trial normal was acquitted of all charges and Mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter so I think it uh uh they say that Norma was there Norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family and their whole family was there supporting her and she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying Mary did it Mary did it and Mary did the same thing or saying Norma did it but all she had

was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off and then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back and so because of that munch housings by proxy like this was her drama she was basically you know say in the the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty she was condemning her anyway because no one had sympathy for that family whereas everyone was like oh this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell yeah and then in the tabloids Mary Bellby just became the just the face of evil for years and years um they didn't have anywhere to put her because they didn't have they they'd never had to deal with sending an 11 year old girl to jail so there

was like lots of places for juvie for little boys but none for little girls so they had to keep her they kept her in like a separate quarters in a in a boys detention center wow for a long time until she was in her teens when she was in her teens she escaped jail for a little while with two other boys but then they then they were only gone for two weeks and then they went back she spent um up until her like I can't I don't I can't find it now um I think it was like in her mid 20s in jail and then when she got out all of England was like freaking out they were super pissed she made money off a book that someone wrote about her again they were like we need to pass laws you know whatever there's a really good movie about adult Mary Bell still in the prison

system and about to get out that stars Emily Watson and Jim that amazing British actor so good in it um but I'll find the name of it but it's it's so good I would recommend it to anybody but it is it's the it's a dramatic version what's it called I don't I'm not sure um I think it was made for TV in England yeah so it's but Emily Watson is the star so if you look up at Mary Bell Emily Watson you'll find it put a photo of it on Instagram yeah um I'm I can look it up right now but um it's it's worth watching because they are very empathetic to her and even though she's like criminal behavior they they really attribute all of the they attribute both of the killings to her abusive terrible childhood wow but I don't know the things those things of like it's one thing

the stories of like the stuff she'd say to the cops because she would say stuff like are you gonna charge me like she she had a lot of very adult vocabulary she understood about being in jail and being arrested um you know probably because of her parents so did she she got out and then what she ended up becoming a grandmother like a mother and a grandmother she got pregnant I don't think she got married and then she was did she change her name there was they passed a thing where they kept her yeah she's she now lives under pseudonym right and they like the British people wanted that repealed they wanted to make her live as herself but they they whatever you they continued the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for

the rest of her life I wonder if her family even knows can you imagine finding it when your grandma dies and then you go on her stuff and find her fucking birth certificate they must know right me I bet me I don't know why would you tell them I don't know would you want to know if someone in my family was a murderer if your mom had been a murderer yes I mean if me right now yes yeah that would be I don't think I'd want to find out if my grandma had been a murderer or no I don't think I'd want to know you would not because you just want to keep her as you know her yeah they're you know like yeah that makes sense especially especially at that age it would make me so sad for her yeah she you know that I don't know

no what else I can't find this movie I don't care tell me more sorry no that that's all I have okay that's a good one she's a good one she's a good one also I have this very bad habit where once the actual murder is over kind of I I know people like that facts and stuff like that but it's all wrapping up to you I don't care listen we don't care about the 1500s and we don't care about I just want to talk about a child murdering a child is insanity what if you were like hiking through the forest next to that empty lot and you fucking looked over that is the most upsetting and saw the kid killing the kid a little girl strangling a three-year-old it's insanity I just don't think that they have the capacity to understand what they don't like what like when she said

the thing about the cat it doesn't hurt the cat yes I don't think she understood understood other people and partly because probably she was psycho but probably also because she was too young to know the permanence of death yeah yeah those are big those are big concepts and but also if she was a true psychopath which the doctors in the in the trial said she was yeah a child psychopath that's very dangerous to other children yeah but that means that she doesn't have any empathy so of course it she wouldn't think it would hurt the cat because she doesn't think of anything else as having emotions and yeah well it's those two kids who kidnapped a little a younger toddler from the mall a mall in England what was her names those boys those little boys yeah they killed him

the weirdest part of that whole story which I'll never do because everyone fucking knows it and I just don't remember bulgar was his last name bulgar anyways they shoved a battery up his butt and to me that is such a signal that they didn't understand like they were trying to get him to work again oh he was dead when they did that and to me it's like I could be completely wrong they were just it's a theory though that's interesting they might have just been sawdomizing him and being horrible and well and they also they could be that could have like they could be mimicking what was happening to one of or both of them totally but a battery specifically it's almost like a little toy yeah like that's how it is on like an adult yeah those kids are also fucking

change their names and are out now really yeah because they're out and living yeah because it happened so long ago I mean in this movie in the merry bell movie it is very convincing of like is something she did as a damaged damaged child and now she's don't let her have a life she's paid the price for being in jail for 25 years or whatever it is uh yeah but I bet the people who don't argue that are just the parents and the families of the two little boys who got killed you know or like now she's off and having a life and now she's a grandmother and they don't have anything yeah no I know it's rough it is it's crazy um what's your favorite murder of the week hi mine is also a child yield mark is it really yeah

man this is a long episode for parents it is very weird that's it's crazy it's very weird uh but this is this is by this is a parent a parental murder and this one stuck with me for has stuck with me I've read about it for a long time because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed um oh you're not oh you're saying the child is murder the child murder got a child murder yes got it so there's a photo of the little girl the day before her death that really fucking stuck with me I hope that do you hear that yes it sounds like thunder my fucking downstairs neighbor plays uh some video game world of war call of duty anything yes call of duty yeah it's just so if you hear that I'm sorry so Lisa Steinberg it's poor little angel

baby that's the one that's the one my god it's heartbreaking this is the worst story okay sorry it's okay no you're right I'm breathing not because I'm okay so it's in 1981 45 year old Hedda noose bomb and 46 year old Joel Steinberg who was a defense attorney who sometimes handled adoption cases Joel was they took custody of an infant girl named that they named Lisa and they illegally adopted her the child's birth mother had paid Steinberg the attorney a $500 legal fee to place the child with a Roman Catholic family but they just kept her instead they were Jewish I don't know don't think that matters but they whatever anyways so this Hedda and Joel were a well educated they were upper upper class New York couple they lived in Greenwich Village

in New York City at school Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly but they worried about her writing at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head oh and she would tell them that her little brother who was also a younger it was an adopted child had hit her and none of them had ever made reports of abuse which changed a lot of stuff in the system um so there's a photo from Halloween the day before this the big incident happens that one of the teachers took of Lisa and all the other photos of her she's smiling and cute and lovely are you looking at it right now no get off your computer what are you doing what are you looking at I was trying to find that movie name sorry sorry sorry that's so rude it's okay it's okay um

and it's just a photo of her at her desk it's Halloween all the other children are dressed up and she's wearing her normal clothes and she's just kind of staring off and it's this with this sad face like an empty sad face and the next day on November 1st 1987 Hedda the mother calls the police to report that her daughter had choked on food that's what she said and when the police arrived they found six-year-old Lisa Steinberg unconscious and she had multiple bruises on her body and the mother had a claim that she had fallen a lot lately on her roller skates um but Lisa was nude and had according to the examiners um from St. Vincent Hospital a huge a huge reddish bruise on her scalp starting at the hairline bruises

and cuts that look like someone had socked her on the chin and old healing marks on different of different colors on virtually every other part of her body oh my god i know and the little brother who i think was a um toddler a baby was found roped to a chair he was drinking spoiled milk and was covered in filth oh and this is an upper middle like upper class Greenwich Village apartment so fucking neighbors had to know about this so according to initial reports on november 1st um at around 7 p.m. Joel Steinberg had somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to the head and what Hedda later said as the reasoning was that Lisa wanted to go quote Lisa wanted to go to dinner with her father but he did not want to take her

and then he inflicted the head injury because she wouldn't stop bugging him about wanting to go to dinner before he left the park but before he left the apartment Lisa wasn't conscious so he left and the mother Hedda was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly 10 hours feeling to notify police or medical personnel um Joel left and came back many times they were freebase and coach Kane sometimes together because they were also like weird drug addicts yeah and she says she didn't Hedda said she didn't call authorities because she believed that Joel had supernatural healing powers and she was waiting for him to come home and fix her which we'll get into in a bit don't do drugs if you're gonna do drugs don't adopt children stupid mother fuckers

don't so around 6 a.m the next morning Lisa stopped breathing and shortly after Steinberg called 9-1-1 at New Spombs urging um Lisa died four days later in the hospital and it was a term that determined the cause of death was a head injury apparently inflicted by what they say was a rubber headed hammer holy shit i know it's heartbreaking um the same things that doctors this is according to Joyce Johnson who wrote a book called what Lisa knew the doctor showed a quote map of pain on her body yeah i know this poor little thing man i wish i wish i they also let's see um the house was filthy and contained large quantities of cocaine and other drugs and the couple was arrested on child abuse charges um new york law state stated at the time that if one parent beats a child

and the other stays silent about it each is equally guilty but that's good i know but Heta was late i mean is it because is that giving any understanding to the to the other parent who didn't do it who was probably abused as well and victimized it we don't know we don't know but here's the here's the so Heta was later found to have been abused by Joel throughout their relationship she suffered from nine broken ribs a broken jaw and a broken nose and if you look at photos of her at this trial and right after this happened this person is fucking disfigured yes like this person's that she had to get a cartilage from her quote good ear taken out to reconstruct her nose which had collapsed because he'd punched her so many times yeah oh

um so she wasn't prosecuted due to the belief that years of abuse had rendered her incompetent at the time of the murder and instead that makes sense yeah and yeah let's we'll talk about fucking culpability man instead she was sent to a psychiatric hospital um when the cops said that when they open when she opened the door to let them in when we to help lisa she had at that moment two black eyes a split lip the bridge of her nose was gone and shards of bony cartilage were protruded and out of her nose she had a bandage wrapped around her frizzled gray hair to hide spots where clumps had been torn out she was hunched and moved painfully like an old woman oh my god you know in exchange for her testimony against Joel Heta was not prosecuted

and Joel was charged with first-degree manslaughter mm-hmm so the trial okay go ahead why not why not murder i don't know i don't mean it okay because oh you know why because later it was said that if Heta had called the ambulance at that moment lisa would have survived for sure so so it wasn't his intent to murder her right when he did kill her right jesus christ breathing breathing breathing breathing what what's around us right now see free see foam green wall we're here in 2016 and not in 80s new york in this horrible apartment what do you feel under your hand what i just remembered as you were talking describing her appearance there was an amazing article in opers magazine

that she had in us bound wrote well she wrote a book did she yeah i bet that was just publicity then and it was just an excerpt from the book it was unbelievable she wrote a book about uh she does like uh talks and uh about being abused abusive relationships and she wrote a book about about it that i didn't really want to include because i don't want to make this about okay you know yeah yeah but i but we you know i'm not she wrote a book it's just the side by side of her when she was young when she first met him and when she was arrested is court she looks like an old witch yeah and she was this gorgeous young new york woman yeah when i just have when she met him i mean this is the problem is i've never been it's not a problem this is great i've never been an

abusive relationship before so i don't know that fucking the head games and the the in the um the way you have to rationalize rationalize things in your head because this person you care about you know is doing these things and you want to believe that they that they have no control over that they're not doing it on purpose that they would never hurt you otherwise your whole fucking world is just shattered and that's right insane and on top of that they're using strong they're free-basing at this point i mean free-basing cocaine is like you're you're doing crack your crack head you're a psychopath yeah okay um and they were there was also some weird like cult stuff and they had been convincing her that she like mind games with her that she had been

sleeping around and had been um hypnotized and there was just some very fucked up mind games with this guy Joel so so all right so the trial so this is actually the first trial which made new york which turned new york into the 44th state to allow television cameras in the courtroom oh hell yeah fucking watch like people tuned in constantly for this um had a testified that there were clear signs of sexual abuse on lisa in 1983 when lisa was two years old but that she did nothing about it she said that her discovery came so lisa had spent three weeks with a long island couple that they had partied with that the couple partied with just let them say with this couple and what yeah okay go ahead now you go nothing i just i'm just got this disgusting

telling me everything it's very upsetting and had a said i guess i was changing her diaper i observed a bruise on her vagina a large bruise over her vaginal area it was purplish black and blue she said she did nothing and under cross examination yeah she said she did nothing about it because she took it to joel and thought he would handle it i hope i'm not i hope everyone isn't not listening no it's it it happened and oh one other thing that when she had a quoted that when he hit her and lisa and she went unconscious he yelled to had a look at what you made me do oh wow so during the trial that yeah they said that lisa's injuries were severe but she would have almost certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment so this is probably why

he had manslaughter so the jury wanted to convict steinberg on the more serious charge of second degree murder but they couldn't because so they could only convict him of the of the second of the second most serious charge which is first degree manslaughter so the judge then sent him to the maximum penalty penalty then available guess guess guess how long that is caron um yeah is it seven years eight and one third to 25 years in prison and he's a lawyer right yeah yeah yeah so on two occasions so steinberg served his time on two occasions he was denied discretionary parole because he never expressed any remorse for the killing he never said he was he hit her he was always an argument that wasn't happened with had a yeah girl but on june 30th 2004 he was paroled

under the state's quote good time law i mean he did good time he was a good inmate congratulations he wasn't he wasn't a good father yeah he was a rotten father and husband that's insane all right um okay it mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior well incarcerated after having served as little as two-thirds of the maximum possible sentence after his release he moved to harlem um and he works in the construction industry he continues to main maintain his innocence but there was this really great new york magazine article where this journalist i don't have his name uh was like clearly like this guy's full of shit he was um interviewing his attorney who's like just a fucking dick lick motherfucker um excuse me why now

what we say fuck every five seconds why excuse myself excuse me excuse me for that something about dick lick motherfucker was a little more you that was like that was one step too far weirdly that's something i say on the regular dick lick motherfucker learn it um in the magazine article he like needled joel and finally steinberg finally admitted that he quote pushed his daughter a little quote with the soft pad you know on your palm he finally kind of gave in because the whole article they were trying to the the lawyer were was trying to make it seem like joel was the victim of this like media slander to make had a look innocent and him look guilty and it's like just what a piece of shit yeah um in 2003 steinberg was ordered to pay lisa's biological mother the one

who gave her up for adoption 15 million for the quote heinous outrageous crime of murdering lisa wow i'm a little bit like do you deserve that money no but still i like the idea he has to pay and then but then a civil suit had a um was wanted to collect 3.6 million from joel for eight years of beating she said she endured and the permanent disfigurement she has suffered which at that point i'm a little like this child died you need to walk the fuck away yeah or am i being insensitive to i mean there's there's a lot there's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this but here's this is my stance because i remember wanting money is like the wanting money is bullshit yeah because you i understand that she was in an abusive

relationship i also understand that she was a drug addict which is a lot of people don't have empathy for that i do and i understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time yes you don't ask for money for doing that you make reparations you fix your life you make your amends you clear away the wreckage of your past you don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up the thing about it is is like you were an adult in this relationship as mind fucked as you were as victimized as you were you stayed in it you chose to stay in it until this awful thing happened if that hadn't happened you would have stayed in it and the children would have still been abused it's just so happens that that lisa died that that you got out of it right

and there's so many examples i'm sure listeners too who have figured out a way to get out of abusive relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is but you fucking do it and that's your choice as an adult right so the fact that this woman who had a choice to be in this relationship and then after a while wants money didn't have yeah the money part is problematic because it's she is a victim in a lot of ways but she's also a victimizer yeah and there were two children in that apartment um i remember reading something where they usually kept the little boy under a flipped over crib so like a little jail that that's how they kept him like an okay i mean yeah it's just so fucked up it's like i read i actually when that all happened

i read everything i could read about it because i couldn't believe when it happened yeah when it happened so i was probably like 12 or 13 i got my hands on anything because it was beyond these weren't like people that you normally saw on tv that were the bad guys these were upscale new yorkers whose lives had spiraled because of drugs but they didn't just spiral like oh now we're homeless oh now it's all on us we're bad they they made these children live in hell and they killed these children essentially and i mean not to fucking defend drug addicts which we both been so it's not like i'm fucking talking shit but like not all or not all drug addicts abuse children no that's like something you would do before you do drugs too it's not like that's right took drugs

and became a child abuser but i do remember reading something head in that that article i read it of that was probably an expert excerpt from head in this bound's book talking about what an insane control freak from day one he was and how awful he was and whatever it it you got into it like it it's you could see it you could see where she got led down that path yeah but yeah uh the idea that she's gonna get any amount of money like the idea that she would even ask for that money i just think is super gross it's the asking for it that immediately puts her in an unsympathetic light i mean from a distance all also there was an episode where you you were probably too young there was a show called the equalizer when i was growing up and it was basically

they remade it into a movie with denzel but when i was growing up it was an old white haired man that would that was basically like some kind of xcia or whatever who would get hired when things were really bad and there's no cops couldn't help and no one could help that's when you call the equalizer you should i know that you know i know that yeah um the the opening credits for the equalizer alone are worth watching oh my god i love it but there was an there was an episode of the equalizer after this story came out that was so fucking upsetting because it was a little girl whose father was this fucking abusive maniac but the parents weren't like cokeheads they were like crazy rich and it was this father that would like they had all had to sit at the table and it was

really really really upsetting and it and uh theoretically was like kind of like a reaction of like it was one of those rip from the headlines yeah like i kind of think what it's like day to day in reality yeah and by the end i think this little girl that the equalizer was trying to help i'm talking about this like it's real but anyway it was just that kind of thing that was very it pervaded the culture of that story people went insane about that story yeah i totally remember it it's so troubling and i think i couldn't find it but i i want to i want to see the laws that were changed because of this because i i remember reading at some point that there was like a uh you must if you suspect abuse especially for the teachers i think you have to report it yeah like

there became there there's some kind of law came about because of that but i couldn't find anything well the idea that the doctors were saying her body was a map of pain yeah and then the teachers the teachers were like yeah we saw that they didn't even say like we never saw signs they saw it but also the idea that abusing a two-year-old is so fucking disgusting like what one had found that the sexual abuse yeah like you think about that of like who were those fucking people who would what was wrong with her that she didn't this was her mother that she didn't immediately think to herself my child is the important part yeah yeah like you take her to one hospital to get treatment for any of these things and it's an investigation is going to start like right

you you know he left for dinner and was gone for hours and you were with her for 10 hours and never a moment crossed your mind to go go across the hall to your neighbors and say i need to go call you don't have to call 911 yourself but like but i think there was stories about the fact that she never left that apartment right like she did not leave it right and she didn't wear normal clothes i think it was always pajamas right i mean yeah i you reminded me of this crime i absolutely have to read a book on it now because i remember like i have everything is you know well this guy from the new york magazine article says that the art that the book by um fuck oh joce johnson called what lisa knew was really good okay so maybe we should both read

that yes let's do that okay did you finish the ted bundy book yet i'm like i think i have like three chapters left did i recently was reading there was a reddit am a that someone posted on the facebook page an am a of the psychologist in the prison who um who was the first psychologist to like discuss talk up with ted bundy ted bundy called him the first time he escaped off a payphone i was like hey i felt like and so he was like gonna ask me anything wasn't like super in depth and great but it was cool i sent it to you was it it's not the one that got recorded is it because there's a video of him talking to a guy no yeah it got recorded they didn't post audio audio yeah okay there's a video of ted bundy being interviewed that i can't watch oh my god i've

tried to watch it and i i don't want to watch him sit calmly and discuss himself like he's a star that pisses me off what does he talk about um he i think he's being interviewed by a cop oh my god but i but i'm not sure i can't wait till i do but i've never i've never watched it should you like it a special like a and we both talk about yeah ted bundy somehow let's do that we can like split it up into parts let's do it i'll talk about this like weird playboy photo of him where he's like half naked have you seen this like naked on a bear rug kind of a thing oh yeah posing what the fuck yeah he's staying sexy as fuck he ted bundy is ridiculous this the way that story is written and the fact that an rule as a writer and as a crime person herself was there at that

it's the craziest coincidence or you know like happenstance or whatever fate whatever you want to call it yeah it's amazing and it's such a good book it's so readable yeah well this was a fucking party of party of none none this was a sad child murder episode yeah sorry um elvis guys listen oh go to uh we're on twitter we're on instagram we're on facebook we have emails we um um we need to do another mini and read a bunch yeah and read a bunch of hometown murders stuff that doesn't make me cry i need to go to therapy uh more than i already do there's just so many it just keeps coming that's the thing is we really we really dug ourselves a real hole by getting into this topic because it's it's all we do i know that's all we talk about i'm fine

talk like it really makes me feel better that i have a point in reading about all these murders instead of just doing it like i did before yeah that's very true because i'm going to read it either way right but there are some that i that you know just affect you more like probably for a lot of people child murders yeah um but oh uh thank you for guys we love you guys and we appreciate you listening and you should tell a friend about this yeah maybe if if nothing else just stay sexy and don't get murdered okay elvis want a cookie the running meow thanks for listening bye bye