My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 29 - Episode: Twenty-Nein

Episode Date: August 11, 2016

Karen and Georgia discuss family-annihilator John List, as well as Warriena Tagpuno Wright who fell 14 floors to her death. Plus a hometown murder by comedian Matt McCarthy.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen Kilgara. That is Georgia Heart Start. You know no one can tell her voice as a part still. I know it's pretty weird. Someone send us a, um, I love when the truth, the hometown murders are people sending in like, I know secret information about the case you already covered. Yes. Because I know people from the whatever the fuck. We love that. And someone was like, last week sent us one, it was like, Karen, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it

was my case. Yeah. And I was like, huh, I'm sorry. No, we're sorry to disappoint you. Yeah. There's that happens a lot when people talk about I love when I think they say like, Karen says, oh my fucking God during when George is telling it, whatever it was, it was like the reverse. And I knew it was for sure because it was like one of your phrases. Yeah. Jesus fucking Christ. But yeah, I mean, I just think it's precious. It's so weird. I feel like we're such different people. There was a fucking thing on Facebook that was like, are you a Karen or a Georgia? Did you see that? And it made me sad. Why? Because I was like, no one wants to be me. Were they both bad? No, everyone loves you. And I'm not, I was just everyone's like,

I'm a Karen, but my best friend is a Georgia. So that's fine. I'm a Karen. How do we, and then people were like, it's funny how people will explain to other people how you can tell the difference between us. And it's that you sing everything. Yes. That's me. And I also have a scratchy voice because sometimes, sometimes late at night, I smoke cigarettes. You do not. Yeah, I do. Do you? Karen? Yeah, sometimes. And you can tell, you can actually, you can tell how many I've been smoking because like right now I've been smoking. I don't know why I'm scandalized by this. Are you really? Because you never told me. And I feel like I thought we knew you. I thought I knew you. No, I don't. It's also because it's such a special

thing that you do alone. And I think it's wonderful that you have that time to yourself. Well, sometimes at my house, like I'm home at the end of the night. You have a great backyard. What else are you going to use it for? I can sit in that backyard. Sometimes I just stick my feet right in that pool. Karen, you're living the life I want to live. It's pretty, I don't mind it, but it's also like I'm tired and I don't get to drink anymore. And I don't get to do anything anymore. So I'll just smoke a little hand rolled valley shag. You used to hand the roll on yourself? Yeah. Karen, this is why everyone wanted to be you. Because I'm so fucking European. They were saying like Karen's a badass. And I want to be, I think it's because I'm scared of everything and

talk about therapy. All it is, is you are honest about your anxieties. And I'm always like, just try to kill me, which is the most insane thing. Every once in a while, it'll hit me where I'm like, Oh, I've actually said that out loud in permanently. These recordings are permanent. There's nothing we can do about it. And I've actually been like, I don't care when the end days come. There's going to be no record of this. So it doesn't matter when what happens. The end days come. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is all going to be wiped off. But well, the grid's going to go down and it won't matter what's recorded because we won't be able to access it. Delta is the first fucking is the first airplane line that'll go down. No, it just went down like yesterday. Delta

won't. They had like a blackout and really at their main hub and everything was grounded. And it's like across the country. Yeah. They're like, there was just a glitch and you're like, bullshit, bullshit. Whenever I hear those things, it was like, someone there was just a glitch. No way. Don't even know there was that was the lizard men that are underneath the Denver airport. They are there down there and they're fucking with the mainframe man. Don't even how much did you love as soon as I heard this on a stranger things that they had a fucking MK ultra line. Like wait, really line. Did you watch it all? No, I think I have like two left or three left. Have you been to the possible 11's mom's house yet?

No. Yes. They mentioned MK ultra and that's why she's like that. Yeah. Because she was one of the people they were experimenting on. Has anyone listened to this? I don't want to I don't want to spoil any spoilers. Okay. I missed that detail. I just thought they say MK ultra in it. Holy shit. Yeah. Oh, that makes me like it 1000 times more. Yeah. Okay. I have to go back and get through. I have to want to be honest when I binge watch shows, especially on Netflix, and you just can like hit enter on the blue box and you just keep going. There'll be times where I just fall asleep and I don't even know which one I'm on. I just wake up and keep watching whatever's on. I have the kind of insomnia that you can't fall asleep in front of television. I've never fallen asleep

in front of maybe wrestling. That's Vince's fault. Well, we couldn't be more different. That's how I fall asleep every night. It's very bad for you to sleep in front of TV. Well, now I wonder how bad it is. I can't fall asleep now without listening to the sleep with me podcast. Oh, that's like, I can't. You're his slave. I'm his slave. So I wonder if someday they're going to be like, it's worse. I'm falling asleep to TV because he's infiltrating my dream. That's right. Well, if he is from MK ultra, you're screwed. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm okay with it. Do you think he he's so great? You're fine with it. I'm fine with it. Whatever his agenda might be like same with Elvis. Whenever one and when it's like, Oh, they, you know, you get a virus from cats and it takes

over your brain and makes you a zombie. I'm like, I don't care. He's so cute. He's so nice. He's so sweet. If he thinks I need to be a zombie, then I'll, you know, he knows what's best for me. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And also, you know, you're going to go, whether you're a zombie for a cat, or you get hit by a bus, you're going to leave this earthly plane. So just accept it. Yeah. This head smells like a library book. The girl who was in love with her cat. Yeah. All right. Do you have housekeeping? I have a housekeeping that makes me very happy. Oh, good. Because it's twofold housekeeping. It was a tweet that my hero, Nico Case, singer, songwriter, Nico Case tweeted. You've got a tiny little happy clap from Steven just now.

Yay. We love her. We love Nico Case. Don't tell me that the connection was lost and there was a loading error phone. No. Well, basically, she retweeted this story. I'm pretty sure it was from the CBC about how their government, the Canadian government is now opening an investigation on all the missing Indigenous women in Canada. So that's like all the women. So, you know, like Robert Pickton, I'm going to eventually do one on him. Yeah. If you don't beat me to it. He's the pig farmer in Canada that was just murdering women and they think it was in the hundreds. Did he feed? Yeah. Yeah. It's a bad one. It's so... I wouldn't tackle that. It's yours. Okay. Because it's too dark? It's too... It's too something for me, but I don't know what yet.

Too many pigs? Too many pigs. Yeah. No, it's just... Yeah, I don't know. Well, so there's... It's too making a murderer. Oh, okay. In a lot of different ways. Go ahead. Sorry. Well, there's just a... There's been a bunch of... And this is very... In America, I think our version of it is women of color, black women that get murdered. And it's just as if no one talks about it. You see all the little blonde girls are always on the news if they are go missing or are murdered, but it doesn't happen with black women. And so the Canadian version, I think, is Indigenous women, Indian women is the incorrect term for it. But so there's the highway of tears where women go disappearing on it. Robert Picton, they named another guy that I didn't recognize the name.

How Picton is the right one? Anyway... You know what? I want to amass murderers because I feel like I won't give enough time to each of the women. I'd rather do... This is what the victim was. Who the victim was, their story. Right. Then here's who the murderer was. And it's like, then there's 19 women. Right. Yeah, no, then that's... Okay. This is bad. That's yours. But anyway, it's like hundreds of Indigenous women have gone missing. And the last say, if I could open this article, I would... God, I would be accurate with my numbers. Sorry. But no, that's okay. I can give you my Wi-Fi connection. I know every time you get upset, but let's pause it. No, no, no. It's fine. Because the general idea is just what Nico Case was

trying to get the word out about. And I retweeted it on our Twitter feed as well as just the government is trying to do something about it. They're trying to find the women. They're trying to investigate the murders. They're trying to actually put a focus and say, these women are important, just as important as anybody else. And we're going to do something about this, which is humongous that a country like on the whole would just admit that they haven't up until this point. And now they're going to. That's incredible. It's really great. That's amazing. It's very hopeful to me about like this. It feels like a new era in crime. Thank you. The name of the article is just how an unflinching gaze on missing and murdered Indigenous women

might move Canada forward. Incredible. Very cool. And what I was right is the CDC news. I'll take it. If it's even that small, I will take an accuracy moment. I will not take it away from you. Thank you. I appreciate it. That's, I mean, that's really the whole story. That's, I'm still trying to think of a way that we can donate part of the proceeds or like help some way with the untested rape kit situation. Mariska. Mariska. Mariska Hargitay. Thank you. I want to give her all my money and like do it. Georgia was in a manic episode and Karen, and she gave a multimillionaire all her money. And Karen totally was like, do it. So, so Georgia's suing Karen. I think that's it. It all ends in a lawsuit between you and I.

I didn't see that coming because of my undiagnosed manic. No, I don't have that. We call it the big giveaway. Georgia really just, no, no, no, I think that's a really good idea. I would love to the proceeds of something that we earn money for because this podcast goes to those untested. Well, we have live shows like we're, you guys were in the fucking process of like having live shows be a part of our lives. Yeah. And a part of your lives, Texas. We're going to invite people. Texas, what? We got some numbers back. That was a brag, but we got some numbers back and hey, Texas, turns out you like us. I was so surprised by that. We both started laughing so hard, but it makes sense. Yeah. That's Texas. Texas has some good murders. Texas knows what they're talking about and

in terms of murder. Can I just say that once we got all this, we got all this like information about our numbers and then we were driving home and we almost had to pull over to start crying with how happy we both were, but how well this is, how like, how would it great? It's pretty nice. It's pretty great. It's pretty nice that we're, we're getting popular because we talk about death. Yeah. I think that's lovely. I love you guys. Thanks for listening. Okay. I have a quick. Yes. Thank you very much for listening. Before I talk about our t-shirts, I want to say that on the Facebook page right now, this is fucking incredible. And because last week I talked about, we talked about breaking and entering and how can you tell if a break in a stage or a robbery

is staged or real? All right. Someone on the Facebook page said, something about it real being fake. I may be able to help you out. I'm a real life burglar, not me more, but like seven years ago, I did two and a half years for home burglary and I know a lot about it. Hold on. Please hold. Are you going to freak out? Is this a woman? Yeah. What? Yeah. A girl burglar. Yep. Fuck. She says, I'm not doing that. Anything like that anymore. Now I'm just completely reformed and clean. So don't hate me. I'm just no problem to answer questions about how real life burglars do their work. So it's an AMA from a fucking lady burglar. Yes. And everyone, everyone in the podcast is like, I mean, on the Facebook page, just like just giving her all the props she

deserves and asking so many questions. So just look up. Now I'm going to be the, now I'm going to be the anti-voice. That's like, I think it's wrong to promote crime. Right. No, it's not. I just scroll down and there's like so many hilarious memes. The one of, of what's his name from SNL, eating popcorn, listening. Oh, yes. Bill Hader. Bill Hader. With his crazy eyes. Yeah. It's just like so many great questions. I can't even get to them all, but so you guys just need to go. It's, her name is Nikki and I KKI and just like search. That's not a real name. I know. Search on the Facebook page like burglar. You'll find it. Oh my God. I can't wait to, I, I, I've missed that. I haven't been on there in a little while. I didn't have time to even read it. I just got so excited

about it. And then if I can pull my notes from under my cat, I also want to say that we have our main logo t-shirts available for the first time. It's on teespring.com slash my favorite murder. It's just a short run from now, whenever is now until August 23rd, just to see how it goes. So go by one of those. There's also hoodies. Oh, someone on Twitter asked, are they 100% cotton or are they cotton poly blend? I don't know. And that's, you can absolutely get that information on teespring. Okay. Teespring has fucking size charts and all that information. Oh, nice. They're nice. You know exactly what you're getting on teespring. Yeah. And they're like anything you're not happy with, you can return. Beautiful. It's an easy thing. It's an actual self-operating business.

Yes. Georgia have to become the president of t-shirt company for a short amount of time. That's a hard couple months. We got to get an intern. Yeah. You know, it's like make that, make that dough or just don't have the stress. And yeah, I mean, we're edging toward it. Yeah. I also want to say really quickly that in therapy and therapy, one of the things I talked about was that how crazy I am and how much anxiety I have because when I go to the back of my building to do laundry, I lock my front door and how crazy is that that I think someone's going to break in. And then I read an article. There's a fucking echo park rapist. And one of the ways he got into her house was when she was doing fucking laundry in the back of her apartment and she left her door

unlocked and went in. There is, it's, it's not anxiety when you're just being careful. I texted my therapist in the article and said in your face bitch, no, cause she was like, you know, yeah. And now she doesn't want to see me anymore. And now she said, find someone else. Cause she was like, you know, we're allowed to take certain precautions and that's okay. And you can do that. But when you start, you know, blah, blah, blah, then it's, so she supported it. And I was like, I feel so justified. Yeah, you are justified. You know, so it's supported. I bet Nikki, she'd be like, Nikki would be like, yeah, that was an obvious answer. The crime community says you're doing the right thing. Thank you crime community for supporting me. Well, also that's good. I mean,

Jesus Christ, right? Yes. Hey, there's no shame in locking things double. I lock, people will walk by in the crosswalk. And they're part of my brain goes, they might be able to hear it if you lock the door or whatever. And it's like, I don't give a shit. Doesn't matter. Much louder voice that says, sorry to offend you, but you don't get to, in case you had the idea, right? Maybe you're on some white drugs. So like when you're sitting at a stop sign and someone goes to walk by and you go click to lock your car door. Yeah. Yeah, you're like, well, they're gonna get mad at me. Fuck you. Well, because I'm creepy. That's a good way to let someone know that creepy. Yeah, I get the idea because you're giving me

the eye. So yeah, I don't we said this million times. Fuck politeness. Fuck politeness. Yeah, there could be new listeners who don't yet know to fuck politeness. Oh yeah. Fuck politeness. And, um, well, you'll feel learned. There's a ton of stuff. You'll have a lot of experiences in your life that'll make you make you question. How about if you're going between the laundry room and your house, lock your goddamn door, lock your fucking door, lock it. If you live in a major city or not at your parent's house, lock your door. It feels really good because literally that that was a worry every single time I walk out back is I come in the door and I check for the cats because if the cats were

still out where they were, that meant no one was in there because but if they were hiding, that would mean someone came in the house. Right. That's crazy. No, that's a good theory. That's a theory based on observation. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. High fives all around. Thank y'all. Thank you to you too. Is that all our housekeeping last time we had so much? I think that was a lot. Oh, yeah. The dollop dollop sold out. So that's not OLA pod fest. Yeah. September 20th the weekend of September 23rd. That's going to be fun in the ballroom in the ball pit. We are performing in a ball pit. We got that awesome tweet from let me let me name her by name. Give her give her Twitter a shout out. She needs all the followers ball pit girl.

We had announced last week that we are excited because we were in the ballroom and then we were talking about maybe that's a good thing. We'd sounds really good. And then someone named Blythe Bourgeois on Twitter. Bly they do is her is her handle sent us a picture of basically like the make the Ikea ball pit. And it said, how great would it be if this was the ballroom and we both laughed so hard for such a long time. So now we are doing our live show in the ball pit at LA pod fest. Be there if you can. And if you can't be there, you can live stream it. I just got emailed the information about that live stream. Nice. So next week we will give everybody what we know or at least more information than I'm

going to be able to give you right now. Yeah. But yeah, you can watch it if you can't be there. You can I think pay a nominal fee and watch whoever you want to watch live, which is really cool. It's going to be a great the whole podcast fest is like a bunch of bad asses. So many cool people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, I'm Arisha and I'm Brooke and we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death,

her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a diva will tell you how she hit her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people let her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Right is the time. It's time. It's time to shine. It's time for us to guess who went first last time. I'm positive you went first. Okay. But that doesn't mean anything because I'm always wrong. No, your your confidence in that is all that mattered because I was really excited that you were confident about it. So I believe it.

Here's what I learned. So last week, I came prepared with two because I thought Georgia needed to prerecord. Oh, right. And so I had gotten a jump on my research on this. So then, but then we didn't have to do two. So I was like, oh, good, because I kind of half asked that second one. So now I got to like, ask and a half this one, holy shit, because I had a jump on it, which is kind of, you know, this is all a journey about me doing my homework. Oh, man. But I'm excited about it guilty about every week. Yeah, when I that I don't do enough. I don't think we understood when we started this what it was actually going to turn into, which was the seriousness of accuracy in facts. We discuss a lot. But I mean, yeah, here we are episode 29 going. Oh, yeah. Yeah,

we have to know what we're talking about. Yeah. Kind of irritating. Let's try. So I've known about this one for a long time because it was made famous by that great American television show America's Most Wanted. Hell, yeah. Do you remember the America's Most Wanted about John List, the man who killed his entire family and then disappeared for 19 years? Yes. Yes, you do. Yes. Well, that's my favorite murder for this week. Let me hear it. I'm going to tell you all about it. All right. So John List was a successful businessman. He was a devout lifelong Lutheran. He was a Sunday school teacher. He was a Boy Scout leader, a husband, a father of three. His family lived with his mother, so their grandmother, in a sprawling 19 room mansion

called Breeze Knoll. Jesus. In Westfield, New Jersey. But behind closed doors, things were not going well. Shocking. This is me kind of trying to write like a, you know, 2020 version of this. This is, this is a narrative. This is, I'm really trying to put something into this and it might not really work out that well because it feels a bit sweaty right now. I feel like I'm trying. Well, it's hot in here. It also is very hot. It's summer in Los Angeles. So John List lists Wife Helen, which they didn't, none of this you knew from America's Most Wanted. Oh, I love this stuff. Tell me. His wife, Helen was an alcoholic who was verbally abusive and unstable. She sounds fun. When you see the picture of the List family, her eyes are going in two different directions.

Was she dressed well though? Yes. It was, the picture I think was from like the mid 60s. So they look like any family. Oh my God. I just picture her at like a party and she's just drunk and like, but she looks amazing. Yes. I love it. She's got like a Jackie O outfit on, but her face is like, is just like kooky eyes and like the bubbles above her head. She's like talking loudly about their bedroom secrets. Oh yeah, girl. You just nailed it. Shut up. Okay. Ready? Oh my God. So she demanded that John buy her that colonial mansion in Westfield, which is a very ritzy apparently town in New Jersey or was in the 60s and 70s. When John landed his high status position as Bank Vice President and Comptroller, which is one of my favorite words in the English language.

So good. Comptroller. I don't know what it means. I love to say it. I'm running for Comptroller this year. Got it. Okay. So what no one knew is that John had recently been fired from being the bank president and Comptroller. Stress. And he, even though he was an ambitious career man, could never hold a job for more than a couple of years because of his personality problems, personality issues, quote unquote. Oh my God. But he couldn't let his family know that he'd gotten fired. So every day he got up and he put on his suit and he grabbed his briefcase and he went to the train station like he was going to work. Those people terrify me. Yes. It's such deep denial. It's insane denial of like that. Everything's fine. And then there's crazy things boiling

underneath those people, man. Yeah. So he would sit at the train station and read newspapers all day until it was time to quote unquote come home from work. Holy shit. Right. And meanwhile, he was skimming money off of his mother's bank account so he could pay his crazy mortgage on his colonial 19 room mansion. And all the other bills are piling up. So in short, John List was Lutheran fuck up under pressure. That's what I wrote. So here's his plan. He on the morning of November 9th, 1971, after his children had left for school, John walked into the kitchen where his wife was drinking her morning coffee at the kitchen table and he walked up and he shot her in the back of the head with a nine millimeter handgun. Wow. Then he went upstairs to the third floor

of their mansion where his mother had her own like what are the sweet yes her own little apartment wing wing wing wing of the mansion and he shot her in the head right over her left eye, which to me sounds like he shot her face to face. Oh yeah, which is pretty intense. Jesus. Then he drove to the bank and he closed his account and his mother's accounts and he cashed in his mother's savings bonds. He came home, he went to a study, he collected some old photos and documents concerning the mansion's history and he put them in a neat pile on his desk and he composed a letter, a thank you letter to John Whitkey, who was a descendant of the original owner of the house. You know, the important stuff. Yeah. And then he also wrote four other letters. He called Barbara Bader, who

was the woman who carpooled his sons, John and Fred to Roosevelt Junior High School, and she had done that for the last time that morning. Oh my God. He made an excuse that the whole family was leaving to go to North Carolina the next morning because Helen's mother was extremely ill and he promised that he would let her know when they were coming back. Then he canceled the newspaper, milk delivery, and he asked the post office to hold the mail until further notice. Was there going to be further notice? Absolutely not. No. So now it's lunchtime. So he made himself a lunch. No. Sat down at the table where he had just shot his wife and then cleaned up the blood off the table. Bologna or cold meatloaf. I would guess bologna because he's just like,

he's all business. He just wants to get proteins and calories. Bologna on white with mustard. With mustard only. Do they have potato chips back then? I don't think John List would eat potato chips. I think he would eat two sandwiches instead of having a delicious side. Oh my God. Karen, that was the best. That was what I was looking for because I love food details. That's my opinion of John List's food details. That was beautiful. Yeah. That's the kind of stuff. I can't understand that. That's such a dude move where I'm like, you could have chips, the only thing you want with a sandwich or you're just going to double down. Pickle slices. Pickles are nice. Yeah. But I always, you know, me and the starches. Oh right. Sure. Everyone can start,

but you just don't keep them at your house. I don't eat them all. That's right. I mean, not you. One. One. So then he went around and cut himself out of every family photo in the entire house. Why is that the craziest part? That is, to me, I did it as a standalone because it's the creepiest fact to me in this whole case. It's so fucking creepy. That is so creepy. Then come, now it's early afternoon. So he's waiting for his children to come home from school. Patricia, who was 16, a drama nerd, and it was the, it was 1971. So she had been caught smoking pot. Oh, she was the coolest. She was cool. And she came home. He shot her in the back of the head. Honey. Then his son, Frederick, the youngest, who was 13, came home. He shot him in the back of the head.

So they didn't even know that their father. No. And he, and he actually in the court later revealed that he did it, his wife and his kids back of the head so that they didn't know what happened. But mom is a different story. His mother was a different story, which is very telling to me. All right. Let's get to, yeah. Tell me more. But then also John Jr. is a different story. The 15 year old who was named after him and supposedly his favorite. There was like a couple different versions of this. Some said he just came straight home from school. But the one I like the best, which is the one I will tell, is that he had a soccer game that day. So John List drove to the school, watched his son's soccer game, drove him home, tried to shoot him. But he some maybe saw

the gun and freaked out. So he ended up shooting him in the face and chest over 10 times. Wow. So overkill, crazy fucking overkill. Yeah. And knew what was happening as, as it went. Once in the chest and once in the face, I get something went worse than wrong that, or he hated him more. Like something went especially wrong for 10 times. Yes. Because this was a man that was doing it neatly and cleanly and pretending systematically. He was like checking off a list. Sure. But when it came, this guy wasn't, John Jr. didn't play ball and made it hard for him. And I think that's like the rage came out. Oh yeah. Like how dare you. You're making this too hard for me. Not even like you're showing me how, what horrible I am. No, no, no.

You're, you're ruining my plan. You're ruining my good time. Oh my god. It's hideous. So then he dragged, he got sleeping bags from down from the basement and he put all the bodies on the sleeping bags, then dragged them into the back of the house to what room? The ballroom. Yes. What if we just had sleeping bags set up on stage with us at the ballroom? And we have a contest for who can drag who around the furthest. Yeah. They had a ballroom in this mansion that wasn't even decorated or furnished in any way. That's how big this house was. And so he pulled his wife and three children's dead bodies on sleeping bags back into the ballroom. He put a piece of cloth over each of their faces. And he left them there, turned it into basically like a makeshift morgue. Then he fed the children's

pet fish in the 20 gallon tank in the dining room, went upstairs and went to sleep. Holy shit. Yeah. So he's, are the fish okay? That's the kind of thought this man is having. Are the fish okay? Is this, I mean, as much as, because I need to put a name on things, is this sociopath? We'll talk about the name later, but he probably, I mean, I don't know enough. Anytime it's like, clearly you have no feelings. Yeah. That's what I want to label it as. Me too. But yeah, it's almost, but he is the real term for this guy is a family annihilator. Yeah. And it's like a thing that happens and there's a couple of different kinds. And they'll never kill anyone else again. Kind of a thing. Yes. Right. It's, it's a situational thing for them.

Tell me more. Okay. So the next morning he gets up, he gets dressed, he goes downstairs, he turns the thermostat all the way down. He turns on every light in the house. Hmm. And then he leaves the house and he leaves Westfield forever. Now, the weird thing is no one noticed. Of course. No one in the neighborhood noticed that this family was not there. And that's because they, this family did not socialize, which is kind of common if you have a crazy drunk mom, like they stayed in, they didn't talk to anybody. The neighbors knew John List as the guy who mowed his lawn in a suit and tie. Jesus. I think the most suspicious part would be that all the lights are on.

That's right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like nobody, especially in a 19 room mansion. Yeah. You're like, sorry, nobody's in the greenhouse. Nobody's in the brightest house on the block. It's, they're not having a party. So because of all this careful planning and because they were basically anti-social and reclusive, it took a full month for anybody to actually discover these bodies. A month. A full month. So the neighbors noticed that these lights were on day and night and that they were always on and that they started burning out and that's when they started getting suspicious. Oh, that's creepy. Can you imagine seeing like one room is out and then the next room is out? Yeah. And never comes back on. So and no one's coming in or out of the house.

So something super creepy is happening up there. But also you don't want to think about it because what could it be that would be that weird? Yeah. But who does? This is the most cinematic, I think, of all the stories because Patty's drama teacher is the one who's like, I don't like the smell of this. Oh my God. His name was Edwin Ileano and he thought it was weird that the entire family was gone that long. And also he had a terrible feeling because Patty once told him, if his family goes on vacation, my dad has killed us. I knew she talked to him about something. Yeah. She said that. She said it to him. So after, you know, 28 days, oh, and he'd also met him once and thought he was super weird. Oh my God. So after 28 days, Edwin Ileano convinces

his associate, Barbara Sheridan to go to the house with him to check on Patty and they drive up there. They try to look into some windows and their being there makes the neighbors call the cops because they see people finally on the property. Yeah. And when the cops show up, Edwin explains to them it's, oh, the neighbors William and Shirley Cunnick are their names. They're the ones that call the police and patrol officers George Hell's Nick and Charles Heller were the first to arrive. So Ileano explains what's going on and the officers decide they're going to force open a window and go inside. And when they open that window, they're hit with a smell of death. Thank you. So I forgot this might be my creepiest detail. Oh, good. When they go into the house, the first

thing they notice is that there's organ music playing loudly over the house intercom. I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry because there's an intercom in this house. Hey, because there's organ music. So you're jealous of the intercom. Yeah, because that's so cool. Yeah. And organ music is the creepiest thing I've ever heard. John Liss set up, they kept calling it a recorder and all these articles that I read. Yeah. When you do research, you realize everyone rips everything off. It's hilarious. And same. So calling something a recorder makes no sense. It sounds like it's the instrument children play in grammar school, which would be even creepier. Just a child playing the recorder really loud. Oh, God, no. Okay, that's going to go deep. Go on.

He had set up a thing that just played this music on a loop until you physically turned it off and then set it to play over the intercom. It was like an old machine or something? I guess so. I mean, they call it a recorder, maybe a recording device or like a reel-to-reel perhaps. Yeah, that sounds right. Because it was 71. Let's go with that. So, oh, I said two things organ music is good for. Ice skating and mass murdering. See, it's, I'm trying too hard now. I need to keep it conversational. So upstairs in the study, they find a five page letter that Liss had written to his pastor Eugene Renwinkel. Sorry. I don't know. It's, it's like bad writing. Like, what should we name the old pastor of the

Lutheran church? Eugene Renwinkel? Only I love it. So in that letter, he said he felt the 70s were a sinful time and that his family was beginning to succumb to temptation, especially his daughter, because of her interest in acting, which is an occupation that Liss viewed as being particularly corrupt and linked to Satan, which is true. Fucking slayed them all. Yes. So the holy religious thing to do is kill everybody. John. So it was like, he thought it was like a mercy killing. That's exactly right. He saw too much evil in the world. He'd killed his family to save their souls. Very nice of you. You fucking dick. And also how giving? Now he said he didn't kill himself because he didn't kill himself because suicide is a mortal sin. That would definitely

bar him from heaven as opposed to murdering five people where you're still in a gray area that can be negotiated. What are you talking about? Narcissism, extreme narcissism, sociopathy. I definitely narcissism. I don't think the sociopathic might not apply only because this is the one off. People get mad. People get mad. It's a five off. Sorry. That's a five off. Okay. We're not saying all narcissists are murderers. Right. But however, this is an extreme case of narcissists. Yeah, it's a it's an element in this personality disorder. Yeah. I'm a narcissist. I've never killed anybody except for in comedy. Okay. Later, a reporter who covered the trial described hearing this letter when it was read aloud in court and he said, quote,

I'll never forget the audible sigh of shock from the jury inspectors when the last line of lists read or letter was read. P. S. Mother is in the hallway in the attic. Third floor. She was too heavy to move. Oh my God. Dang. That's your mom. Yeah. It's like a moving like a moving box that you just like couldn't. Yeah. Someone take care of that upstairs. Like it's your leather. Do you think you might have had a slight problem with her? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a nationwide manhunt is launched, but he's got a month lead time. He's he's way ahead. Police investigated hundreds of leads without success. All reliable photographs of list had been destroyed. So it wasn't I was creeped out. Yeah. It was kind of like super smart. Yeah. Oh, I didn't get I didn't catch on to that.

I did not either. The family car was found at Kennedy airport, but there was no evidence he had boarded a flight. He was gone and would remain gone for 18 years. Wow. Then on May 21st, 1989 forward forward into the 80s. Yay. The murders were recounted on America's most wanted, which at the time had been on the air less than a year. Oh my God. And it featured an age progressed per age progressed. Sorry. Age progressed clay bust sculpted by the forensic artist Frank Bender. And it turned out to bear an almost exact resemblance to list's appearance. Maybe I'm making this up, but I fucking remember seeing this. No, you remember, because I'm about to hold up a picture to you. Oh my God. Oh my God. I was nine. So I was like,

old enough to remember this. Yes. And this was I remember it. I was 19. Oh, grandma and baby. Bender consulted a forensic psychologist and created a psychological profile of list. He looked at photographs of list parents and predicted what he would look like as he aged. Holy shit. He gave him a receding hairline and sagging jaws. Bender was particularly lauded for one final touch. He added to his completed artwork. It was a pair of glasses. Bender believed list would not be vain enough to wear contact lenses. However, he said list would have worn a pair of glasses different from those he wore before the murders. He said they would be a pair with thick dark frames. He and the psychologist theorized that list would do this to hide innocence. He

would want to disguise the fact that he was a failure and appear more important than he really was. Holy shit. So he put these big old glasses. Remember that? Dude, I remember that. This is real John List. And this is that sculpture. We fuck. It's fucking like exact. Oh my God, you guys look this up right now. Steven. Isn't that crazy? We'll put it. We'll put it on social media. I'll put this on our Instagram. But this Frank Bender nailed it. So literally less than two weeks later, they got a ton of calls, but less than two weeks later, they find him in Virginia. And the hilarious part is in the court, John List reveals he was watching the show that night with his new wife. And he was quoted as saying, I was perspiring like anything, but his wife

didn't recognize him. No way. She had a fucking, she had a veil of I can't fucking eyes. And I bet a little Vin Rose, a little rose, a little bottle of rose. She had all kinds of different veils. Yeah, the veil. Yeah. Okay. So they go to trial. Um, he explained that he had lost his job. He explained he was dealing with his wife's alcoholism and trial reveal her untreated tertiary syphilis that she had contracted from her first husband and army lieutenant who was killed in combat in Korea and concealed for 18 years. So his crazy wife that used to verbally abuse him and publicly, oh, I, maybe I skipped that part, but there's, oh, no, it's in this part. He says in court that she used to publicly insult him about

wait, did I guess that completely? Yes, you go, you absolutely guessed it. I would know that. Yeah. Well, syphilis makes you go fucking bananas. Um, he lists said by, by then the disease in her excessive alcohol consumption had according to testimony transfer transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt paranoid recluse who frequently and often publicly disparaged list comparing his sexual skills unfavorably to those of her first husband, the one who gave her syphilis syphilis. Jesus, that scared the shit out of me. So here's me playing the prosecuting attorney. Mr. List, can you explain how your wife often disparages your sexual skills in public if she's a recluse?

No more questions, your honor. And I turn around and slam my blazer down onto the chair. All right. So basically John List makes all these excuses in court. He's like, I have PTSD from being in the army. Um, I, uh, what's what else do you say? I, oh wait, a smoker, he, oh, it was my wife, my kids were going crazy. I was abused as a child. My father always told me that you had to provide for your family and that you had to do this and you had to do that. And I, and I wasn't doing anything, any of those things. Cause I lost my job, blah, blah, blah. So a court appointed psychiatrist testified List suffered from obsessive, compulsive personality disorder. Um, and he only saw two solutions to a situation except welfare

or kill his family and send them to heaven. And welfare was unacceptable because it would expose him in his family to ridicule and violate his authoritarian father's teachings, blah, blah, blah, blah. So this is a common thing with family annihilators. Um, they say that there are two types and one is a livid coercive killer. And those are the ones that are usually abusive and they kill the family when the family tries to run away from it. So it's years of abuse, years of abuse. The family tries to escape and then it's like, let me see those all the time. I'll teach you all. Yes. But the other kind is the civil reputable killer. And they're motivated by a perverse form of altruism. So it's his way of rescuing the family from shame and

hardship. Um, and in his obsessive, compulsive narcissism, John List didn't choose to fix his own problems, but instead he fixated on the family problems and the problems of society. Um, 81% of family annihilators kill themselves after killing their family. Huh. Um, so that's when, in my opinion, John List's argument of this, I was doing the best for the family breaks down because he went on to live a happy life for 19 years, uh, in Colorado. And what, sorry, the part that I was skipping over is he basically told everybody what happened was the day after the murders, he took the train from New Jersey to Michigan and then from Michigan to Colorado. He settled in Denver. He took an accounting job as Robert Peter Bob Clark.

And that's subtle. Yeah. Kind of plain, but then also exciting. Yeah. Exciting in a way. Pick one of those names. Um, he was the controller at a paper box manufacturer outside of Denver. He was, they said, controller, I want to say cop trailer. You know what? It's our fucking story to tell. That's right. Um, and then what he do, he joined Lutheran congregation, ran a carpool for shut in church members and, uh, met an army PX clerk named Laura Smiller and married her in 1985. It's almost like he's trying to prove to himself that he's actually a good person. Yeah. He was just circumstantial. It was them. Yep. His wife, his alcoholic, syphilitic wife, his hippie daughter, his rebellious children, they ruined it for him. I feel like in the fifties that might

have worked better than in the seventies and eighties that excuse or like, especially the eighties, but like that came to an end, it seems like. Right. Because it, well, that was also like the oldest version of like, there's only a father that's the breadwinner. It's never the mother and no one gets divorced. And this is the, the American dream. You have to have a house and two kids, all that bullshit. Everyone got sold. Yeah. That everyone kind of had to swallow whole basically. Also, John List, um, was abused as a child, which is a very common thing in family and annihilators because, um, they get, they feel powerless. They felt powerless as children. So when they have families, they're exerting power over the family to give them that power. They're

in charge. Exactly. And then when that doesn't work, they don't know how to deal with it. Oh man. When, when the seventies come and the daughter's like, I'm going to go crazy. Yeah. When there's a fucking cultural revolution throughout the country and your daughter's like, I think I might want to act. Yeah. Instead of being a devout Lutheran. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So they, they're trying to create the, the life they never had that they fantasize of as abused children. Right. And then when that goes to shit, they're just like, well, we're starting over. Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Um, I guess the, the bet, this has a great twist ending. Cool. Good. Um, so that he was, he was, um, convicted of five, uh, counts of murder of, uh, and the judge said, John, John

Emma List is without remorse and without honor. After 18 years, five months and 22 days, it's now time for, for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patrick, Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave. That's beautiful. And he imposed a sentence of five terms of life imprisonment to be served consecutively. It was the maximum penalty. And List died of pneumonia in prison on March 21st, 2008. Wow. And his body was not claimed because who's going to fucking claim it? He lived for a long time. He really did. The second wife didn't return the call. Yeah. And the morgue was like, Oh, we have your. Hello. Hello. But eventually someone took him back and he was buried next to his mother

in Michigan. Oh, she's like, fuck this guy. Yeah. Get out of here. They show me the fucking face and then wouldn't even carry me to the ballroom. But are you ready for this twist ending that I love? Oh, that's not it. Yeah. This is it. So somebody burnt down Breeze Knoll, the great, the great mansion. Some that no one's ever even looked into who might have done it. Was it a ghost? They just did it. It could have been a ghost. It could have been a ghost fire. There's a New Jersey ghost fire. But destroyed along with the home was the ballroom stained glass skylight, which was a signed Tiffany original. Oh, she's worth at least $100,000 at the time, which would have covered his expenses. It was right there the whole time in that room.

You didn't go in because you couldn't deal with it. Oh, my God. That's going to be someone's new ringtone, by the way. That's John. That's John List, everybody. Oh, also because he disappeared in 71 and D.B. Cooper. D.B. Cooper. They thought he was D.B. Cooper for a while. Because he kind of looks like that sketch. Yeah. Mr. Veg. D.B. Cooper stole $200,000, which was kind of around they figured around how much John List owed. Are they sure it wasn't him? John List vehemently denied it from jail. That's how fucking boring this guy is. No, I'm not. No, I insist I'm not D.B. Cooper. Well, it could have been cool if you were. Yeah, but maybe he doesn't. I bet it was him. No, I don't think this guy would have jumped out of a plane. He was too scared to tell his

wife he got fired. Okay. You know? Okay. Maybe he thought, I don't know, just did Lutherans like Jesus? Maybe he thought Jesus would help out. Yeah. Jesus did help out. He gave him a beautiful skylight, a Tiffany skylight. The Lord said it was right there all along. You know that whoever burnt that house down was fucking bum. They didn't know that too. Yeah. There was some real estate agent that ran up at the, at the last. What are you doing? No, no, no, no. At least get the thing. You ghosts and your arson. All right. All right. What's yours? So I have one that I learned about recently because it happened recently and we're gonna, Karen, we're gonna do a little play. Okay. This whole, this theme, what is this theme? Drama, drama teachers. All

right. You mean for this episode? Yeah. Yeah. The drama teachers episode. All right. So Warina Wright, W-A-R-R-I-E-N-A, Warina Wright was 26 from New Zealand and she went to Queensland, Australia on July 29th, 2014, just celebrate a friend's wedding, checks into a motel on August 6th and then on the, the following day is like, let's see who's on Tinder. Do you know this one? No. Okay. So she fucking Tinder's beautiful girl. She looks like a little bit, a little gothy, but not, you know, she's hot. So she finds Gable Tosti's Tinder. He's this like hot ladies man. They meet up outside of a bar on the 6th. I just want to say by the next morning, Warina will be dead after falling from his Gable's 14th floor balcony. That's how this goes.

That's not good. Back to that night by 9pm, they're in his apartment on the 14th floor. Okay. This beautiful building. So somehow Gable, which is a great name, isn't it? What's his first name? The first name? I don't know. I kind of like it. For some reason, he starts recording what's going on inside with a voice recorder. Police somehow extracted it from like mobile phones that were found. I think it was tried, they tried to delete, he tried to delete it. It didn't happen. They were able to get it. So, so there's, there's a whole, there's a whole conversation that's recorded. And so acted out. Yeah. So I'm going to read, but yeah, okay, I'm going to read. I highlighted your parts. Okay. Oh, thank you. Your, your Warina. I'm Gable. But let me read it to you also. Okay.

So at 1am, the sound recorder started and it's later ceased, but the recording starts. Music's heard and 20 seconds into the recording, the man states, fuck me. At 1.02am, the man asks the female to chill and have a drink. And she says she is, I'm a psycho drunk and do not test me. Then at 1.05 between 1.05 and 1.08, the pair talk about death. The male says, throw me off the balcony and that's it. This is it. Boom. Then at 1.16am, there's laughing sounds are heard and sounds of hitting are heard as well. But the music continues to play in the background. And that was scary. As if on cue. And there are soft sounds of groaning. Okay. At 1.29am, the male says, I don't like getting beaten up. At 1.36am, the argument begins when the female says she's leaving

and can't find her iPhone. She says, are you going to fucking untie me because I will fucking destroy your jaw. Oh, my God. And then Vince unlocked the door and scared the ever-loving. Hi, baby. Oh, man. Elvis. Vince April. Okay. You're going to untie me. So at 1.38, the man says, I should have never given you so much to drink. I thought we were going to have fun. And then he asks her to calm down. At 1.41am, the man asks the female to stay but says, you're just a bit violent. He offers to cook some food and the conversation calms down. At 1.53am, more drinks are poured. Stop drinking, you guys. Yeah. You already decided the drinking is bad. Yeah. At 2am, the occupant of the apartment

below is woken up by the noise. At 2.10am, the audio recording and the audio recording, the male tells the female to relax and threatens to kick her ass. At 2.11am, there's sounds of struggle. A minute later, the sounds of rocks possibly being thrown in the apartment is heard. At 2.14am, the man says, that's enough. You've worn out your welcome. You have to leave. The female out of breath says, okay. At 2.15am, the man says, I thought you were kidding and I have taken enough. This is fucking bullshit. You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony. You goddamn psycho little bitch. At 2.16am, the female who is breathing heavily accuses him of being a sexist and then says, lay off. To which the male replies, seriously, what? At 2.17am,

the man says, you're a goddamn psycho. I'm going to let you go. I'm going to walk you out of this apartment just the way you are. You are not going to collect any of your belongings. You are just going to walk out and I'm going to slam the door on you. Do you understand? If you try and pull anything, I'll knock you out. Do you understand? The female says, I'm so sorry. I don't care. Okay. So the fall. At 2.17am, sounds of struggling and heavy breathing are heard. The man says, let go of it. Let go. Let go. Let go. At 2.18, the first choking sounds are heard. Breathing slows. Male. Let it go. Sounds of a metallic object dropping is heard. At 2.20am, the door, a door unlocks and the female states, no, the sound of glass, a glass door possibly

being hit. At 2.20, the man says, who the fuck do you think you are? Hey, the female says, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The male says, you tried to kill me, huh? Well, why did you try and hit me with that? Shut your filthy mouth. The female, I'm not going to scream. Screams now, but she's screaming. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The man says, it's all on recording. You know, it's all being recorded. The female, a lot more knows. Just let me go home. The male says, I would, but you've been a bad girl. And then the sounds are heard of a door slamming shut. A police at this point alleged that he left her out on the balcony, misread on the balcony. The female says, just let me go home. Just let me go home. At 2.21am, a female's final words are

heard. Just let me go home. Faint screaming is heard. You look, you're looking at me like I'm in a, it's horrible. Okay. So put that down. Right. So the occupant in the apartment below his, here's a female repeatedly shouting no, and then sees two legs dangling down. So what's going on right now is either she's crazy and drunk and jumping, or she's terrified of this person and trying to get to the balcony below. Yeah. Yeah. So the witness says, in a matter of seconds, I saw the person fall from the balcony above mine. At 2.21, a call is placed from Gabel's phone to his lawyer. The call doesn't connect. At 2.23, a triple O, which I'm guessing is 911, call is placed by

the woman in the apartment below. Police arrived at the scene. And at the same time, the fob key to his apartment is activated. Closed caption cameras capture a male believed to be Gabel approaching the front entrance of the apartment. And he walks back to the elevator and rides it to the basement. At 2.29, sounds of walking are heard in the audio recording, which is still going from earlier in the night. So he has the phone or whatever he's using to record what's going on with him or in the apartment with him with him. He's like in the, in the so sorry, he's recording this entire evening recording the whole thing. And people said he might have done it because he was like a creepy pervert and like to record these things. Or

he took home a lot of women. And this is a way to like assure that nothing, oh, you know, just to have it, if they go crazy or if, yeah, either way, it's sketchy. Yeah. At 3.10 a.m., he orders a pizza. Yeah. He says, um, a pizza of pizza supreme, please. He orders a fucking slice of pizza at 3.23 a.m., a calls place to his father. He says, hello, dad. I might have gotten a bit of a situation. I went, I met a girl for a date. She started getting aggressive. Um, we kept drinking. And I think she thought it was like a joke and she kept like beating me up cause she was really drunk and I forced her out on the balcony and I think she might have jumped off. And the dad says, Oh no. Um, are you okay? Yeah.

So there's million cops walking around and fucked up. I don't have to do the, um, he says, I don't know. I like, I tackled her on my floor inside the building and I never forced her over the edge. So the dad picks him up and, uh, eventually he's arrested. And, uh, so, yeah. So he's claiming he's innocent. She jumped. He has nothing to do with it. He didn't push her over the edge. It's not murder. He's, um, he's set for trial on August, on October 13th, 2016. But he's free right now. He's out on bond and he, he can't stop talking. He's posting shit on like bodybuilders.com. Oh no. He's just, he doesn't understand why people are blank. He, he has to be somewhat narcissistic. Yeah. Oh, you mean like he needs to say his,

what his side of it is? Yeah, but he's also saying things about how many women he's been with and he's never hurt them. So he's like bragging about that, how nice his apartment was. Um, how well he does, saying it's a witch hunt. Um, but they, but prosecutors think he could be convicted for murder because she was reportedly in fear of her life and was trying to flee him to the apartment below. Who says that in those neighbors? The prosecutors say that. Oh, okay. And I'm really interested, I really like, not like, but I'm really interested in murder by suicide. I think it's really interesting. Like there's that one case of, there was the, the, uh, road rage incidents on a bridge in Detroit and this man was coming at the woman who had rear-ended him and she jumped

off the bridge to get away from him. Yeah. That's, that was actually a very famous, like one of the earliest law and orders. Really? Yes. Wow. Yeah. Well, and he was convicted of murder or maybe manslaughter because she just didn't know where else to go. It was just like trying to get away. Yeah. But also it was the idea of recording an entire evening just to be sure in and of itself is suspicious to me. Maybe what do you need to be sure of that you have been in a position where this has been a problem for you? Or maybe she just already was being a little crazy. Oh, so he started the recording. Yeah. Not to, I'm not victim blaming. They were clearly very drunk. Well, maybe he liked to record his, his sex. Sex. But, but yeah, you're right. I mean, like she,

the things that she's doing don't make a lot of sense. It's not, it's not like it's, uh, doesn't seem like she's the only victim at the beginning. Yeah. It's not, from what he's saying, but here's the thing. He's the only one who knows it's being recorded. So what he's saying about her attacking him is very specific. And someone on like a Reddit said, or maybe on the Facebook page said, when my boyfriend was beating me up, he'd say, he'd yell, stop it. What are you doing to me? Why are you doing this? To like get the neighbors to think that she was doing something to him or just to fuck with her and her mind. So it could be that it could just be and what it sounds like happened from when I read the transcript, which I fucking stayed up all night reading and it was

like, it's so crazy is, um, you know, they were having rough sex. Maybe she wasn't completely coherent. She comes to and is freaked out by it and is trying to get out, but doesn't know how. And he's telling her to calm down cause he tells her to calm down a couple of times. Right. I think at one point she realized what was happening and picked something up to throw at him and he gets so angry at that cause you can hear him say like, you've been a bad girl. She's trying to defend herself. He, he's like, I'm gonna have to lock you out on the balcony to like, to, um, protect myself. But she, the whole time she's been the victim and she's freaking the fuck out. And she's drunk and fucked up. And so she thinks the best option is to

go over the side of the edge and get to the balcony below, which Yeah. That's like something from a movie. That's like, it only works when stunt men do it. Yeah. Anyone in the right mind would never try that. And so she clearly wasn't in her right mind. And is there proof that we know that she, if she drank like, yeah, I know people who have like, are almost like allergic to alcohol where they have one drink and they're just like legless and out of their minds. No, I don't know. It's not like that. I don't know what her blood alcohol level was. I don't know if they tested her for drugs. Maybe they're keeping all of that for the trial. Yeah. It sounds like that's the story he's trying to

push with this recording is like, you've gone crazy, but he's feeding her alcohol too. Yeah. So even if it's like, well, look how drunk she was. I mean, his own recording is, is gonna, is gonna be the thing that convicts him. I feel like, well, it's super weird to, I can't imagine if something terrible happened at my house, like horrifying, like a person committed suicide, I wouldn't be ordering pizza an hour later. No. I mean, I wonder if he was so fucked up and didn't know what was going on, it would be almost be like he would go lay down or something or go hide or, you know, like, I don't think, but also if you, I mean, this also just immediately makes me think of the night of because

the night of presents you the story where you completely, I haven't watched that. I haven't only watched the first episode. Okay. But I mean, just in general, you empathize with the person that they put in front of you, right? Because that's the story you're getting, right? Which is what happens a lot of the time is, is whoever gets ahold of that narrative. Yeah. Then you go, oh, yeah, yeah. No, he would never do that. He's so nice or whatever story. Yeah. And what people present you and the media and then the shit that they talk about the other person. Yeah. So in a way, not to defend him, I know, I have no idea what's going on in this one. This is crazy. But it makes sense then that if he's kind of out on his own, he's trying to control the narrative by

tweeting things and posting shit on bodybuilders.com or whatever you said. I mean, like then he's, that's a person that's just scrambling and making mistakes. Yeah. I feel like the harder you try to defend yourself on social media, the worse you seem and the more people can pick it apart. Yes, for sure. Because, I mean, you know, web sleuths have gotten ahold of this, the website, web sleuths have gotten ahold of this and are like picking it apart. And they think there's been some comments by fake accounts he's made that just know too much about the details. Oh, shit. Yeah. It's like he's his own worst fucking enemy. Well, and also he's, he's paying a lot of attention to this, the process of this. Right. Which is very strange. Yeah. It's going to be a hard one. I

feel like it's going to be a hard one. So sorry, this just happened days ago? 2014. Oh, okay. But he's being, you know, it's Australia, so I don't know. I feel like he's being indicted or there's going to be a trial to indict him on this on in October. Oh, okay. Wow. From what I can tell, from Australian legal ease. It's not fucked up. Yeah. It's poor, the poor girl, but this whole situation guys don't meet strangers on Tinder. Not, oh man, I'm going to get in trouble for slut shaming. That's not slut shaming. But it's so crazy that people just like, that's just gating though. Yeah. But I mean, like, how about the girl, that girl in Santa Monica that knew the guy for a year? Yeah. Rufi to drink. I mean, the bad things happen to people. It just happens. Yeah,

you're right. But this seems weird because you're the idea that a person is recording an entire evening. And their foreknowledge of that recording and not telling the other person. And that's, there's a manipulation on the surface of that suspicious for sure. And to me, it's suspicious to say, I record this because just in case something happens and I need to defend myself or it's like, but that's not an accurate defense because we can't see what's actually happening. It's just your playlet. It's also weird at the very end when he's like, I'm, I've been recording that like he uses it to throw it in her face somehow almost like you can't prove anything. Yeah, you can't prove anything or

like, why would he use that against her? If he, you know, if nothing had happened that he could call the cops for or press charges for well, he never called the cops, right? No, and he didn't let her go either. Like at one point she was like, I'm getting my shit and I'm leaving where's my phone and he like stopped her from leaving. Yeah. So she was freaked out and wanted to leave too. Both of them, you know, if you had a person, this just will throw this out there. If you had a person in your house, you met on a Tinder date, so you don't know them. You guys are drinking, they get a little crazy. You're, you're the guy. So they, it's a girl that tries to beat you up. So it's like painful, irritating, not, not life threatening. When they want to go, what would

be the, why, why would you keep them there? Yeah. Like this is crazy. If you're keeping a crazy person in your apartment, quote unquote, so crazy. Yeah. That you know you're making more problems. Yeah. Like if they, you just go, yeah, get out. What are you trying to get out of the situation if you want to keep the person who's crazy and abusive toward you? Yeah. Around there. You're getting something out of it or it's not as it seems. Right. Well, there's a third option that I mean, abusive people, you know, it's the gaslighting technique where abusive people are like, why are you being so crazy? Like this isn't that big of a deal. Right. And, and the people who that works on it, it works very well. Well, and also you would get

violent if you were like, say, tied up against your will or woke up whatever the scenario was, where you would try your best to like, what are, what are the rocks that got thrown indoors? I don't know what the rocks are. I wonder if, I mean, I wonder if she was just almost incapacitated, almost incoherent. You know what I mean? Where it's like, you're not yet, you're just like, you're aware that you're in a situation that's not good because she's not forming complete sentences most of the time. Yeah. She's just saying she's reacting. Right. That's right. That's crazy. I know. And then you have to assume she was naked on the balcony too. Oh, really? I think so. She's definitely barefoot, but I don't, I'm not sure

if she's naked. Oh, okay. So check that out. I didn't, I didn't think of that. Facts and things. Well, yeah, let's work it up, right? Yeah. I've been thinking about that one for a lot, for a long time. Are you okay? I mean, no, no, no, I just, those ones just make me keep on thinking about it. I know. The idea of recording an evening is super insane to me. Yeah. And also, just like this weird day and age that we live in where like you could be recorded in any time. Yeah. Like right now. Oh, my God. Wait, what are these microphones doing on our faces? Should we do a hometown murder? Yeah. Should we do, should I read one? Will you open that door? Oh my God, because you're sweating. It's yeah, I'm dying.

Just, I mean, and then just whatever noises we get, we get. Okay. I mean, should I play Matt McCarthy's voicemail? Yes. Okay. So our friend Matt McCarthy, of course, from the We Watch Wrestling podcast, that just so happens. We had a cameo earlier by Vince, a role my husband, who's also from that podcast, sent us his, finally sent us his hometown murder. He's been telling me he's going to do it for a fucking hour and he did it and I haven't listened to it yet. So I'm excited. Okay. Awesome. Really quickly. We watch Wrestling podcast is doing two live shows. I'm going to plug them to it. One is an LA on the 19th of August. And on the 26th of August, they're going to be in New York City live podcast comedy and special guests. Go to

brownpapertickets.com. Where are they in New York City? Do you know? Vince. White Hotel. Nice. Yeah. And they're at the Copper still in Los Angeles. So go to that. Oh, right. Cool. All right. So Matt McCarthy, let's hear what he has to say. Hold on. Okay. Ready? Yes. Well, hello there. It's your old pal Matt McCarthy from the We Watch Wrestling podcast here to tell you about my hometown murder. I am from also from the famous Halloween party that introduced both of you. So listeners, I'm the reason that the show exists. Anyway, anyone from Rhode Island, I'm from Rhode Island knows the name Craig Price. He's the most notorious serial killer from Rhode Island. Also known as the Warwick Slasher. In July 1987, Craig Price was smoking pot.

He broke into his neighbor's house. The woman moved two doors down. She was moving. There were boxes everywhere. She didn't even have a bed anymore. She's just asleep in her living room watching VH1. He goes in. He looks at it. He stands over her. He said that he with every fiber of his being, he wanted nothing more than to kill. He goes into the kitchen, finds a knife. He stands over her again, sits down in her chair, watches her sleep, and he's standing over her with a knife. Stands her 58 times. She had the point of the knife stuck in her shoulder. And he said that let's dance with my David Bowie who was on VH1 at the time. He was 13 years old. Oh, my. The first was 13 when this happened. 13? And they had no idea who did it. Two years later,

he breaks into another neighbor's house, murders the entire family. The mom, 39, stabs her 11 times. With knives, she literally bought that day. Killed the 10-year-old girl, stabbed her 62 times. 62 times stabbed her. Three inches of the knife broke off the handle and bore girl's neck. The eight-year-old, he stabbed her seven times and crushed her skull. Also during the attack, one of the girls bit him. So he bit her face, then he bit the mother's face. And then they eventually caught him because he cut his hand open while he was stabbing them. And then three years after this, it was the state of Rhode Island trying to keep him in prison because he was a minor. They caught him when he was 15, which meant by law, he would get out of

jail as soon as he turned 21. So he was a juvenile. So then he's still in jail now. He's supposed to get out in 2020. We'll see what happens. He'll be 46 when he gets out. And I hear he likes girls with dark hair named George and Karen. Oh, no. You think he'll get out? Holy shit. I don't think he'll get out. No. Oh my God. That's Rhode Island of all places. 13. That's so crazy. That's really young to stab somebody a ton of times. He had to be so mentally ill. Yeah, that's horrifying. Good one, Matt. Thanks, Matt McCarthy for watching us. Hilarious stand-up comedian as well as podcaster. Super hilarious stand-up comedian who just took claim for us meeting, by the way. Oh, did he? Yeah, that's what he said

in the beginning that in the beginning when we're talking in the beginning of this podcast and we're talking about talking about murder at a Halloween party. That's right. Matt's party. It was his party. Genesis. Yep. There it is. Maybe Genesis was playing. Maybe David Bowie's Let's Dance was playing. There's a very good chance. Oh my God. Wow, that was an intense episode. There's a lot going on. Yeah. Comedy. Oh, speaking of, we found out that one of the ways that we get up on the charts on iTunes is when you guys leave comments specifically. So I'm gonna fucking shill some shit and ask that if you like this podcast or don't like this podcast either way. When you leave us a comment on iTunes,

rate, review, subscribe. Karen, you look sad. I'm not. I'm really hot. I'm just, I'm a little bit tired. Okay, let's end this shit then. But also the people that have been rating and reviewing and subscribing has put us at the top of the charts week after week. It's the same. Thank you so much for doing that. It's, it's amazing. This podcast makes us want to cry. Yeah. We have a real good time. Yeah. While we cry. Yeah. Oh, Elvis. Elvis is with Vince because Vince gives him all the cookies. Oh, wait, hold on. All right. Well, Karen, do you need to get your cat first? He'll come. Karen. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye.