My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 293 - Did We Forget Canada?

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

This week, Karen and Georgia cover the stories of the Rosewood massacre and hero Oliver "Billy" Sipple.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello. Hello. And welcome. It's not my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar. Hi, that's Karen Kilgarov. Hi. How are you? Look, we need to greet each other and then we need to greet America. That's right. And Sweden. And the UK. And parts of Finland. Australia. Don't forget Antarctica. And Scotland, which is not part of the UK. Sometimes people listen to us in Cuba. Do they?

Dubai. Dubai. Dubai. Dubai. Oh. That's exciting to think people are listening to us in Dubai. Did we forget Canada? Always. But you know what? Just as soon as I memorize those provinces, Canada, we're going to come at you. Saskatchewan, fucking Victoria. Please don't do this. Why are we doing this? I'm getting so nervous. Why are we doing this? Hey, enemies. We're like setting ourselves up for people to be mad at us. You know why? Because we like the negative attention. You must, as a podcaster, as podcasters, you must. If the last five plus years, five and a half years show us anything. Is it our five and a half year anniversary? Today. Today's the day. I got you this and I pulled out an edible arrangement. Oh my God. Pineapple with chocolate. Who doesn't want

that hideous taste combination. I still think edible arrangements are the best joke in the entire, like my favorite fucking joke. This is not an ad. You can't use promo code murder yet. Yet. Until they realize. That's right. That's my, that's my goal in this podcast, is for someday for an edible arrangement ad. Here's what I would like to ask Finland, or whoever gets this, is edible arrangements a Hollywood joke? Because things like that get sent around this town so often where it's like, congratulations on, on potentially maybe getting this, that or the other thing. Here's some pineapple covered in dark chocolate. Or is that a thing that like everybody does it and people, because I know like Sherry's

Berry's great podcast supporter over the years. Totally. And that is a thing people love like a chocolate covered strawberry. Right. It's like out of class to it. It is. It's fancy. So is it like, is that, is it just a thing like, no, Karen, people love that. People love it. They love it everywhere. Another question is, when people get it, are they like, well, why didn't you just get me a fucking bottle of fancy champagne? Like you're actually being not funny and cheap. Well, that's not cheap, but but you're also you're assuming every time someone sends an edible arrangement, it's a joke. Oh, I am. I don't think it's like, I still eat it. It's exciting, but it's funny. I think people love it. Also, sometimes there's just cantaloupe that they

cut into the shape of a flower. Oh my God. Yeah. With a little like watermelon in the middle. Yes. Stamen. Pistol. Stamen. Crocus. No. Why are we naming things we don't know? Anyhow. Anyway. Thanks for the edible arrangement. I really appreciate it. I let it go rotten on on my kitchen table. How is it going to fit in your fucking fridge? Also, how does a person eat that much fruit and chocolate mixed together? It's not healthy. It's actually completely healthy, but it's not healthy. The thing is, the thing about this podcast is if you're interested in true crime, well, then obviously this is the place to be. Obviously. But at the same time, it's like that's nobody's one interest. They also have interest in fruit arrangements. Different parts

of the world. True. What else? And greetings. Greetings. Different ways of saying hi. Finland. Hey, here's some good news. Okay. Robert Durst was found guilty of murdering Susan Berman last Friday. Amazing. It feels like there hasn't been as much like fervor about it. It's like kind of low key. Well, I think that it's that's the kind of thing where the story has told itself by now. And I think everyone kind of expected that the story would have been bigger if he was found somehow not guilty. But I think when things that's I think that's how things kind of go when it's what everyone expects. Yeah, it doesn't hit as hard. And no one wants to give that asshole more attention than he already fucking has. But I'm really happy to hear that.

I am too, because the the murders, this is the alleged murders. There's all the all the the hell he had brought it really. And because he was so rich. Yeah, there was so you know, he went for so long just getting away with it. Well, I hope he rots in prison. I mean, I mean, it makes me wonder, should I be so greedy? Which part makes you wonder that? Because I don't know. There's no part of the story that makes me think of Karen Kilgara. Really? Every story makes me think of Karen Kilgara. God, that's weird. The greed, you know, it makes me wonder if I should be sociopath with black pupils that take up my whole eye. And you should start stealing sandwiches from grocery stores. That would be

a good move peeing in the sandwich. Didn't he pee in one of those like ready to make ready made sandwich things? I remember that part of it. But maybe I didn't follow the story all the way through. I tend to not do that. I think it stuck out to me because it felt like rage peeing, which is such a remarkable thing to do, especially inside a story in like New York City or wherever he was. What's rage peeing? When you're really mad, so you pee on something. Like, yeah, you'll all pay. All you sandwich eaters will pay. Yeah, that happened to my friend. Like she lived in Florida and we were out for a night. She had a vegetarian or vegan sticker on her car. You know, we were very young and we came out to some fucking jock peeing on her car.

Because she was a declared vegan. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow, everybody. Take your corners, everybody and relax. He was peeing like in the handle of the door. So like when the person had to open the door, their hand would be in pee, but they wouldn't even know it. So what's the point? Yeah, that's the kind of thing that you, yeah, you think you're getting them, but if they just think it's like condensation from the, you know, a marine layer that rolls in while they're in the club, then, you know, they just go like, ew, and wipe it on their pants. It's a secret gotcha. Yeah. It's his little secret he's going to take throughout life with him. Oh, I peed on a vegan's car once. You know, I think I've told you the story, but one of the scariest things

that ever happened to me was once my friend Susie Sullivan and I, the great Suzanne Sullivan, who used to work at the San Francisco Improv, she and I went down to one of the pride best of cause like in San Francisco, it, there's like different neighborhoods have events on different weekends. Yeah. So we got super drunk and went down there to meet our friends. Oh, yeah. At one point, I tried to find a bathroom in every single, we were in the tender line, South America, South America. And there, none, nowhere had a bathroom. No, events don't have bathrooms. No, especially back then, like, and the, the plate, the businesses around there were like, no, get out everybody. And at one point we walked by and there was just a big open kind of empty lot

where they were about to build departments or something. And there was, it was just lined with men and kind of like leather daddy outfits peeing against the wall. Yeah. And I was like, Susie, I have to pee. So we found what we thought was like downstairs to like a basement to kind of like stairs down off the street to nothing, like a doorway or whatever. And she goes, just go down there. I'll, I'll sit on the step and watch for you. So we go down there and I pulled, I'm wearing black tights with shorts, of course. Oh no. Cause you have to like get naked from the way it's down. 1991. Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's, I'm in a bad position. And there's a guy walking by and he stops and looks down and goes, are you peeing down there? That's someone's house.

And I go, what? No, we thought it was, you know, whatever. And he goes, what? And he, he starts yelling at us, but I think he can tell, oh wait, they're drunk. Yeah. And they just made a very bad call. Yeah. And that's when the door behind me opens and a guy dressed in full leather, leather daddy outfit, it starts going, are you being on my front door? And I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, we had no idea. And then the guy who was yelling at us starts defending us. And he goes, no, wait, they didn't know, they didn't know, get up here. And then we run up the stairs. And then those two guys start fighting as we run away. It was mayhem. And I've, I've had like that permanent, like it's now been 25 year cringe. Because the sound of the door behind you had to

be. And like, I don't, I had no interest in peeing on anyone's front step. I don't want to, I don't think it's okay. I would never ever do it. You don't advocate for peeing on people's doorsteps. It's kind of not your thing. Especially not like, you know, kind of keyed up gay men who are like into whips and bondage. I don't want to mess with them. No, you're not trying to disrespect a leather daddy. I fully bow to the letter leather daddy community. As you should. As we all should. As we definitely do. And maybe Ben, and you pop our butt up a little bit. You bowed, but the wrong kind of bowing looks more like crouching and squatting. I was squatting. And we were already the kind of people they have no interest in. It's just not fair, though, because like the guys up

top could just take their dicks out. That's what they get to do. And we have to, it's just, it's a whole issue. It's a whole issue. And it's like, hey, drunk girls, maybe don't, don't go be a tourist at the gay fair, the gay street fair, because no, there's no services for you. It's not for you. It's not for you. Yeah. We were basically like, it was kind of on par with like when bachelorette parties go to like drag shows. Oh yeah. Tourists. Yeah. And kind of like, yeah, everything's for us. And it's like, it's not. And they don't want you here. It's gay tourism. And it needs to stop. And that's our stance for today. It's a strong one. It's a strong one. But let's also not cut off finances to the gay tourism community. Also,

I really want to go to a drag show. So I also want to be like, it's not okay for anyone, but me and you. Well, it also, you better go to a drag show because that's some of the best comedy you're ever going to get in. Those are people who are trained and they're so fucking funny. They're so good at comedy because they've been defending themselves for most of their lives. So they have it right there. It's that thing of, did you have a good childhood or are you funny? Yes. What's the one you took me to in the basement of the Mexican restaurant? Casitas del Campo. Casitas del Campo. Who did you take me to see? Was it Sam Pancake and Drew Drogy? No, but I love them. But it was. Was it the Golden Girls? No. Keep going. Jackie Beats.

Jackie Beats. I love my friend Jackie Beats. One of the best, funniest, most talented drag queens. That was one of the best shows I've ever been to, period. Yes. It was so funny. When Jackie goes around the room asking everyone for money, I gave them all of my money. It was like, take all my money, take my purse, take everything I own. Because that's talent right there. The talent, the singing, the, the parody songs that Jackie writes about all kinds of crazy. I mean, like, you just have to see it. Yeah. My favorite. So Jackie and I used to write, my first writing job was on a sketch show for the WB and Jackie was also one of the writers on that show. We were trying to write a sketch about the John Travolta film phenomenon that had come out that year.

And someone goes, or no, it was about Michael, the John Travolta movie. Oh, wow. Where he was an angel. Yeah. And then someone goes, wait, maybe we should make a reference to the movie phenomenon. Like somebody's trying to get something else going. Yeah. And Jackie goes, oh, come on and on. Like immediately. And I was like, wait, that's the best I've ever heard in my life. Where'd you come up with that? It was so fast and so perfect and also really like mean, like, oh, like that's the dumbest. Oh, come on. Yeah. So funny. I love it. So talented. Everyone look up Jackie Z. Jackie Pete is the most talented. I adore him. I think, I believe his pronouns are him. Okay. But Jackie, if I'm incorrect, my apology. Speaking of funny people, how are you?

I'm good. I'm good. I got a sunburn on my face. Which is cute though. I shouldn't say that because I'm so anti like sunburn like we got to protect. We have to look good like with a little pink glow. Really? It's not like sunburn red. It's like pink glowy glow. Wow. Thank you. Wow. Because this afternoon it was sunburn red in a way where I was like, am I going to have to go to the like the melanoma department tomorrow? Because this is this is how my family, you know, processes the sun. Yeah. But I just didn't think about it was that kind of thing where I went into the sun early in the day and went, I haven't put on sunblock yet. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. And then never did it. No. I got a legit like weird as if I tried to lay out in

the sun sunburn. Oh, it's good. I it's cute. I wish I I wish I didn't look good with a tan because I have a face to show it now. But man, sometimes it's just cute to have a little to have a little hey, I don't know. I was outside. Oh, I party sometimes. I guess I party outside. Have you been partying outside lately? No, because I quit smoking. Okay. So I have no reason not to smoke. I know I'm not. I picked it up during the pandemic. Like a year ago, I was like, I'm bored out of my mind. I'm just walking in circles around my house. I need something vice to do. And you didn't have a hammer and nail to just drive into your palm or my lungs. Yeah. So I picked up smoking. I was like, this will be a funny hobby.

You probably did it like when you were in your teens. Oh, yeah, I smoked in my teens. And then, you know, when you're out at a bar and someone has cigarettes and you bought my cigarette, and then you regret it the next day. So I took up smoking. And then it became a real thing that I became a smoker in my 40s during the pandemic out of nowhere. It wasn't like I quit for 10 years and then went back to it. And Vince was like, I think I like a challenge. And Vince is like your way past just like quitting cold turkey because I tried to quit a couple of times. Yeah. Then I was like, watch me and quit. Right. Because I, well, that's how I work. Thank God you could. Yes. It's not that easy. And I think it's because I was never a smoker,

really. Yeah. And then I had this one day where I couldn't take a deep breath. And it's probably like anxiety. But I was like, well, this is actually damaging my lungs now. So fuck this shit. Yeah, good. Yeah. So now I don't go outside. I've never used to go inside. That was the only reason you were going out there. Yeah. Shit, man. Thank you for being honest. That was really, that was, that was really honest. Look, I mean, the thing that's funny is it wasn't that long ago where people smoked all the time indoors, in restaurants, smoking quote unquote smoking sections. Yeah. Doctors fucking recommended it or whatever. Yeah. But I mean, like even in as recently as the 90s. Yeah. Smoking or non. I bet a lot of our listeners don't fucking know that

because they never had to deal with it. Yeah. Like up until the late 90s in certain places, you'd go in like a fucking Coco's and they'd be like smoking or non, which yes, just meant the whole fucking place smelled like cigarettes. Yeah. Like if you were in non, but you were back to back against the smoking section, you were in the smoking section. There was no plexiglass. You smoked on airplanes. Yes. So everyone who doesn't smoke can go fuck themselves essentially. It's and also it's weird. And I think it's really telling because this all the ban happened before the internet existed. Right. So it just happened and that's it. Those are the rules the end. Yeah. And no one got empowered to go, I can hit people because I want to smoke. Right. It didn't happen.

Did you ever smoke on a plane? No. I think I was too young to have done it. You did it? No. Okay. No. Are you disappointed? We never got to have that opportunity just to see what it was like. Well, it seems I don't want to be introducing fire to any scenario that where you're already a little bit scared. I wouldn't smoke on a train. No, you shouldn't smoke near an airplane. No. Nobody should. No. But it's yeah, that one was a weird but I mean that shows you how in the 50s literally everyone smoked all the time and it was not a big deal. I wonder if they really didn't know that it was bad for you. They didn't for this for a long time. Do you think anyone was like, yeah, but I know it is. Well, I mean people must have no it feels

terrible. Yeah. It hurts. Yeah. Makes you sick. Yeah. The book Alan Carr's The Easy Way to Quit Smoking. If people need to quit smoking, that's like the Bible. Yeah. So check that out. You should definitely, we should all quit smoking. Yeah. It's very bad. It's not good for you. But I think, I feel like we're talking to a bunch of people are like, uh, yeah, dumbies, we know. Yeah, Gen Xers. It's not fucking good for you. Yes. I will always say I'm a Gen Xer even though I'm not really, but I will. But you're a cusp. Yes. There's, I read some article that they were calling you guys geriatric millennials. I love it. It's not mean. No, I'll take it. That's better than just plain old millennial. True. It's a, man, that dividing line is a very strong dividing line.

It is. Cultural references though. I insist that I have the Gen X cultural references. So. Yeah. Cause you had older siblings. So you were right in there with all of it. Exactly. Yeah. Have you seen anything fun? Never. Never. Oh. Never. And you have no proof that I did. Seen anything fun. I tried watching a little more Game of Thrones. We're gonna have to get back into it when I have a chance to watch it again. So. Yeah. Sometimes you need to take a little break. Yeah. Let's put a pin on that one. Sure. But I'll get there. Yeah. Cause I do like it. It's not a binge. I was just talking to Bradford about this because he also started it, like re is started a rewatch. I mean, we were talking about how it is not a binge type show.

There's a lot to absorb. There's a lot to follow. And it was when it was on HBO on, I believe, Sunday nights, it was the perfect like, oh, it's gonna happen next. And it was like cliffhanger. One a week. That makes sense. I am watching Why the Last Man. You are? Yes. What do you think? I like it. It's a little soap opera-y. Right. But fucking Diane Lane is the most beautiful fucking woman. She is. Talk about a champion for what 30, 40 years. Fucking ladies and gentlemen, the fabulous stains. I can't believe that's her. If you guys haven't watched it, go find it and watch it. Yeah. She's amazing. Also, she was cherry in the outsiders. The best line in cinematic history, in my opinion, is when Matt Dillon is as dally is bugging her,

and then she turns around and goes, get lost hood. And that's how she says it. Like the intonation when I saw the movie is like, I want to say that one day. I want to talk like that. I have an admission that I didn't realize that only the men had died until like the third spoiler alert episode. But no, because it's called Why the Last Man. Yeah. How would I not have figured that out? Because we don't pay attention to things like that. It's just like, I literally thought, and I'm not, this is not a joke, I started watching it because I thought it was a new season of The Last Man on Earth with Will Forte and Kristen Shaw. That was a good show. And I was like, yeah, it's back. It's fun and funny. Let's have some fun and funny. And then it's like

dark, deep blood spurting. And then a thing that's truly the apocalypse. But I just was really impressed with how that, I mean, that first episode was just. Yeah. I like it a lot. I mean, we're gonna definitely. It hooked you. Yeah. Watching it. Yeah. I'm interested. And wow, he's hot. Who's that main guy? But I love the CIA Secret Service. Oh, Agent 355. Yeah. Also, the concept of that, it was like, of the Secret Secret Service that the president doesn't know about. Yeah. It's awesome. Ashley Romans. She's incredible. She's great. I watched it just for her. Oh, and Amber Tamlin's really good at it. Amber Tamlin is unrecognizable and amazing. She's so good. I hate her in it, even though I like her a lot. You don't, this is not your

daddy's Amber Tamlin. No, that's not the way it's, that's not the saying. I literally, I was watching, I'm like, who is this woman? Who, and then I went, she's familiar. And when I saw that it was Amber Tamlin, I was like, what, how is this possible? She's so good and unlikable in it. It's great. Do you know that I was an extra in her TV show in the late 90s? Doctor House? No. Joan of Arcadia. Oh, wow. Joan of Arcadia. That's the one I totally forgot about until I watched this. Like, people have sent me screen grabs on Twitter of like, I just saw you in the background of Darra, Darma, and Greg or sleepover. Like, there's a Clueless, the TV show. But the one I totally forgot about because no one's ever sent me a screen grab is Joan of Arcadia.

That's hilarious. Yes. And what were you doing, milling around the town square? No, I was a teenager. You know, I looked so young. So I was at their high school walking. I mean, I was a teenager probably, but walking around just in the background, you know, like, it's like between periods and here comes Georgia. Walk in by Amber Tamlin, you know. That's hilarious. That's my backpack gone. Nice. How often did you do that? I did it like a little few times, seven or eight times. Wow. It was really fun back then. Like before the internet, I just sit and read all fucking day and then go be in the background of it. And then you got to see how like TV works and movies works and shit. It was really fun and see famous people.

There's nothing more exciting. Yeah. And then get paid for it. And free lunch because I had breakfast too because I was broke as fuck. So I'd show up early and like eat the crappy craft service that they give to extras. Yeah. You know. Yeah, load up, put some scrambled eggs in your purse. Then you're out. Then you read your book and then you're gone. That's right. I love that. No, but yeah, she's so good at that. Yeah. That's a good show. It's exciting to find one that you're excited to go back to because I feel like because of the way I binge and because of my, you know, because of all of our interior habits these days, it's like, oh, I don't have, I finished that. There's nothing left. There's nothing left. There's nothing left.

All right. Well, should we get going? Yeah. Should we do this job? Let's definitely do our actual true crime podcast. Yeah. Let's do it. For once in our lives. Can we please? You're first. I am. I am. Okay. Can I take my shirt off real quick? Uh, sure. I have an undershirt. A little hot. See? Wow. Woo. Boobies. No. I have a little camisole. A candy. You know what? Can I take my shirt off for this record? Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal, and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available

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music or Wondery app. Okay, so you may have already heard of this, but this is a very disturbing, of course, very awful story of the Rosewood massacre. Okay, so let me tell you some broad strokes. There's a movie directed by John Singleton and starring Ving Reims that you can watch. But for this story, some of the sources, the Tampa Bay Times, which used to be called the St. Petersburg Times. So that I kind of reference both. But there's an article revisiting Rosewood Truth Be Told by Dan DeWitt. An article from The Guardian called Rosewood Massacre, a harrowing tale of racism and the road toward reparations by Jessica Glenza. There's, of course, Wikipedia has the Rosewood Massacre article. There is Rosewood Massacre on a website called blackpast.org.

And that article is by Trevor Goodlow. There's actually a website that's managed by the Rosewood Heritage Foundation, remembering rosewood.org. Okay, so I'll tell you a little bit about this. So in 1982, an investigative reporter for what's now called the Tampa Bay Times, but at the time was the St. Petersburg Times named Gary Moore. He drives out to a city called Cedar Key. And it's near the site where the unincorporated town of Rosewood once stood. And Gary Moore is looking for a story. So he remarks to a local woman that the area has a quote gloomy atmosphere. And the woman says back to him, I know what you're digging for. You're trying to get me to talk about that massacre. And Gary Moore did not know about the Rosewood Massacre. So he wasn't digging for that.

But now, as he's a journalist, he's like, now I do need to know what you're talking about. And so he begins an investigation. And that leads him to a man named Arnett Doctor. So when Arnett was five years old, his mother named Filomena Goins Doctor tells him and his family a story. She says, your family built churches and schools. They had hogs and cows and huge vegetable gardens and all the land in the town where I was from was owned by black people. Filomena goes on to describe her life in the town of Rosewood, Florida. It was founded in 1847 and of course, subject to the segregation of that era. So Rosewood became a predominantly black community that was self sustaining and relatively prosperous. But all of that ended in January

of 1923. After a white woman from a neighboring town makes a false criminal claim involving an anonymous black assailant, which incites an angry white mob who invade and destroy the town and many of its citizens. And for the next 25 years, Arnett Doctor obsesses over this story of the town of Rosewood. But his aunts who he goes to talk to about it, they were taught never to discuss the details of what happened in Rosewood, primarily for their own safety. So it is basically a taboo subject in the family. So we'll give you a little background. Rosewood sits on the northwestern side of Florida. It's about nine miles east of the coastal city of Cedar Key. And of course, it's named after all the cedar forests that were there. So Rosewood begins as

a logging hub and a very successful one, which leads to its settlement in 1847. It's they opened two pencil factories in nearby Cedar Key making pencils from all the timber that's gathered in and around Rosewood. Ticonderosa? No, not that. I mean, I don't think so because they closed and we know that the Dixon Ticonderoga brand and product are still going strong to this day. Right. I don't actually know that for a fact. I just know that pencils are still around. I mean, pencils have to get made by someone, right? They have to. And because so people so rarely use them all the way down to the nub, which is, as you know, my favorite thing. Sure. Fully used pencils. Anyway, so basically, these factories create jobs that draw both black and white Floridians to

Rosewood and increase the population in the area. So soon the town gets its own post office that gets its own Florida Railroad Train Depot. By 1890, these cedar forests actually get completely deforested and Cedar Key's two pencil factories end up having to shut down. So the marginally wealthy white population in Rosewood packs up and they move about three miles away to the city of Sumner to try to look for new jobs. So Rosewood becomes a predominantly black community. And that community flourishes. They're almost entirely self-sustaining. They have their own school. They have three churches, a Masonic Lodge, two general stores, one owned by a white family, and the other by a black family. They even have their own baseball team, the Rosewood Stars. Many black

families in Rosewood enjoy a middle class lifestyle and the luxuries that it affords. And a former resident named Robbie Morton remembers Rosewood as quote, a town where everyone's house was painted. There were roses everywhere you walked. Lovely. Yeah. So they're basically two prominent families in town, the Carrier family and the Goyans family. And the Carriers take over what remains of the logging industry in the area. And the Goyans family introduces a turpentine industry to Rosewood. The Goyans family is so successful that in the by the early 1920s, they're the second largest land owners in all of Levy County. So one member of the Carrier family is a woman named Sarah Carrier, and she works as a laundress for a white family named Taylor, and they live in the next town

over of Sumner. So 30 year old, the patriarch of that family is 30 year old James Taylor. Okay. Right. So James works as a millwright, which is basically a craftsman who fixes and maintains factory machinery. And he works at the local sawmill. So he gets up every morning before dawn to go to work. And he leaves behind his wife, Francis, nicknamed Fanny Taylor. She's 22, and they're two young children. So Fanny is known around town to be a little bit odd, very obsessed with being clean. She's actually the floors of their home are woods, and she has bleached them white and keeps them white. Yeah. She's a little distant with her neighbors. But Sarah, who Fanny refers to as Aunt Sarah, doesn't mind her. She thinks she's fine. So as

an employer, it's not that big of a deal. But then in the early morning hours of January 1st, so it's New Year's Day, 1923, one of Fanny's neighbors allegedly hears Fanny screaming. So this neighbor grabs a revolver and runs through the darkness to the Taylor's house to find Fanny laying on the ground, bruises all over her face, and scuff marks all over her perfect white floor. Fanny tells the neighbor that a black man broke into her home through the back door, beat her, and then ran out. So according to this neighbor's account, there's no sign of Sarah Carrier, who normally would have been there at that time. Okay. But Sarah Carrier has a completely different story. She was there at the house. She arrived early that morning, and she brought her

granddaughter, Philomena, to help her do the laundry. And that her granddaughter, Philomena Goyans, is Arnett Doctor's mother. So that's how this all connects. Okay. So according to Sarah, she and Philomena both see a man leave out the back door of the Taylor's home. But they say it was almost noon when this man left, and they say that man was white. Okay. So Sarah and her grandchildren, Philomena and her brother, they have seen this white man before. And Sarah's theory is that Fanny is having an affair with this white man that they meet after Fanny's husband leaves to go to work every morning. And that basically this one morning, they got into a fight and this guy beat her up. So she had to make up a story of what happened. Right. Not surprisingly, when Fanny reports this

assault to Sheriff Robert Elias Walker, he believes her without question. And he assembles like a posse to quote unquote, investigate. But of course, word gets around about this attack. And the story quickly morphs from assault to a rumor of robbery and rape. Now, the problem with this is the day before in nearby Gainesville, Florida, the KKK had just held a New Year's Eve rally, where they had actually marched behind a banner that read first and always protect womanhood. So you can imagine what happens when this rumor of a black man raping a white woman reaches these clan members who are all nearby in Sumner. They just happened to be gathered around. Which was unfortunately, and as many of us know, which was what was happening in 1920s,

especially in Florida, but the South and in the Midwest, it was a hotbed of race, racist oppression. So in 1866, Florida's black code laws were overturned. And they included laws against black people voting, bearing arms, gathering groups for religious worship, and barring them from reading or writing. So it was actually a progressive move to overturn those laws. But of course, white supremacists were furious about it. So in response, they retaliate with violence. And around 1915, the Ku Klux Klan, which had basically kind of died off a little bit, they reemerge. And by the mid 20s, lynchings in the name of so-called vigilante justice become the norm, especially in Florida in this area. So basically, when this report of assault

on Fannie Taylor comes in, Sheriff Walker asks around. And he learns that a black prisoner named Jesse Hunter had recently broken free from a chain gang and was at large. Jesse Hunter immediately becomes the prime suspect with no evidence and no motive. And as many as 400 clansmen start pouring into the area to quote unquote, help track him down. Sheriff Walker, instead of saying, no, no, no, we have to, this is of course not legal procedure. So he tries to deputize them all, but there's too many to manage. The sheriff reaches out to a local convict camp and asked to borrow their dogs to help with this search. So there it's basically an unruly mob. It splits into several factions. Some go with the search dogs. And the search dogs have picked up

the assailant scent that goes from the Taylor's home into the city of Rosewood, the town of Rosewood. And so basically the mob decides that one of the black residents in Rosewood is probably hiding Jesse Hunter. So the dogs lead the mob of 100 to 150 men to the home of Sarah Carrier's nephew Aaron Carrier. And they find no sign of Jesse Hunter, of course. So instead they drag Aaron out of his home in front of his mother who is crying and pleading for them not to kill him. But of course they are out for blood now. And this is very disturbing, very horrible, as all of this kind of violence was back then really, really beyond. They tie Aaron to the back of a car and they drag him for three miles. He somehow miraculously survives this attempted lynching.

And when he does that, Sheriff Walker puts him into protective custody in nearby Bronson. Now that might sound nice, but he's basically putting this victim in jail after an angry white mob attempts to lynch him. Years later, some Rosewood survivors would say that they suspect that the white man Fanny Taylor was having an affair with knew he was in trouble when he left her house after that beating. And he ran to Aaron Carrier's house to hide because Aaron was a mason. And the theory is that Fanny's lover was also a mason. And so they knew each other. And so Aaron hid the man and helped him escape, not knowing what the result of that helping would be. And that would also explain why the dogs were led to Aaron's house on that scent. This is now just a theory. It's the

survivor's theory. It's unproven. But it would make a lot of sense. Because in Rosewood, the few white people that still lived in Rosewood, like the white store owners, people got along with them. There was not a contentious situation there. Yeah, he knew he could hide out there as opposed to some other friend. Right. And he had to go somewhere close. So at this point, the sheriff's newly deputized clansmen are drinking. They're getting more angry. They're getting more violent by the minute. They're completely out of control. So Sheriff Walker advises all black locals to stay at the turpentine mills where they work, so that basically for the rest of the night, so no one gets caught on the street and no one gets caught in their house with these mobs.

So he basically created this situation and then realized he had made a huge mistake and incited mob violence, essentially. Not a mistake, but yeah, something much worse. Even though everyone's been warned, there is a blacksmith named Sam Carter working at one of the mills who actually has a run in with one of these mobs. They beat him and they torture him into quote unquote confessing that he's hiding Jesse Hunter. And so they force Sam to lead them to the spot where he's hiding him. But of course, there's no trace of Jesse. He's not actually hiding him. He was never hiding him. So then one of the men just shoots Sam Carter dead. Then they hang Sam from a tree as a warning, quote unquote, to the rest of the Rosewood

community. So it's a like a berserking mob going around this area. So basically after this, this is kind of like the pinnacle of that violence. And then they start leaving Rosewood. So on their way out of town, a few stragglers are lagging behind and they bump into Sarah Carrier's son Sylvester. Sylvester's nickname is man. And basically he is everyone in Rosewood loves him. They respect him and they kind of fear him. He's a great shot. He's an excellent hunter. He's tough. He's confident. He's even musically talented. And basically they see him, they start to try to harass him. They tell him he needs to leave town. And Sylvester's like, you're gonna need more people because that ain't happening. And of course, this infuriates these few stragglers

and they run back to the mob wherever, you know, they have all ended up to let them know that this has happened. So they do get more people. And for the next three days, these clansmen and this out of control mob recruit more white men while all the while stoking each other's anger. Sheriff Walker allegedly tries to disband this mob. It's too little. It's too late. So on the evening of January 4, 1923, a group of about 30 clansmen returned to Rosewood and surround Sarah Carrier's house where Sylvester lives. There's somewhere between 15 and 25 Black Rosewood residents hiding inside the home. So some are her neighbors who saw this white mob coming and knew that they would be safer if they were all together. And some of them were Sarah Carrier's relatives

who had come for the holidays and were just there visiting their grandmother. So when the mob descends on his mother's house, Sylvester's armed and he's ready to protect everyone that's hiding inside. And so the accounts of what happens next vary because it's basically survivor's accounts. But basically two white men from this mob approach the front door, a man named Pauli Wilkerson and a man named Henry Andrews and shots are fired. But no one's sure who fired the gun first. But in that first wave of bullets, Sarah Carrier is shot and killed. Oh my god. Yeah. And then Sarah's nine year old niece, Minnie Lee Langley, comes downstairs to see what's going on. And that's when her cousin Sylvester grabs her, pulls her into the firewood closet with him. So

basically he's like, get in here, you know. Yeah. So this is according to Minnie's like first hand account. She says quote, he got behind me in the wood bin and he put the gun on my shoulder. And then crackers was still shooting and going on. He put his gun on my shoulder, he told me to lean this way. And then Pauli Wilkerson kicked the door down. And when he kicked the door down, cuz still let him have it. Holy shit. So Sylvester Carrier battles the mob well into the morning. Oh my god. But Wilkerson and Andrews are killed. Several of the men are wounded. And so the mob ends up backing off. They never end up overtaking the house. But it is believed Sylvester is killed in the battle. Although, according to Arnett

Doctor, Sylvester lived to escape to Louisiana. But that's no one else knows that they think he died. Arnett says Sylvester would sometimes reach out to the family by sending a postcard. But that he remained in hiding until his death in 1964. Holy shit. So he just, the rumor was he died so no one else would come after him. Right, exactly. And also he shot and killed two white men. So he could never go back. I mean, he was, he was, you know, always in danger basically. Yeah. Now, all the other accounts say that Sylvester died in that stand off. And that would logically kind of make the most sense if he was one of the only people with a gun inside the house. But nothing is official, of course, because none of this ever got processed

correctly by the authorities. Right. Several other people in Sarah's Carrier's house were wounded, including one child who actually had their eyes shut out, but survived. Luckily, the other children managed to escape by running out the back door and hiding in the brush or in the swamps. But even after all that violence, the mob is not done. As Rosewood survivor, Robbie Morton, the niece of Blacksmith Sam Carter, who we talked about earlier, she would later put it, quote, they didn't find Jesse Hunter, but they noticed that here's a bunch of black people living better than us white folks. And that disturbed these people. So the next day, news outlets from all over Florida and all over America publish varying accounts of the January 4th standoff. Most of

the papers sensationalize the fact, counting higher death tolls and embellishing the story to make it seem like, quote, unruly black folks had started a race war. But black run newspapers like Baltimore's Afro American, however, they frame the story as one of heroic black people trying to defend their home from clansmen with the help of Sylvester Carrier, who they refer to in the article as a desperado. The white folks of Florida read the national and local papers. They don't see any other side of the story. And so the mob is reignited. So on January 5th, a mob of two to 300 angry white men returned to Rosewood and unleash hell. They set fire to churches, loot and burn Rosewood residents homes and shoot people as they try to escape. So they like the house on fire.

And then as people try to get out of the burning building, they shoot them. The first known victim of the day is a woman named Lexi Gordon. When she sees the mob descend on Rosewood, she orders her kids to run out of town. But Lexi herself has typhoid fever. She can't escape. So she tries to hide under the house as it starts to burn. But the mob finds her there and murders her. Oh my God. So in this chaos, the Rosewood residents, they run for their lives, most of them into these swamps. A survivor who was a young, a nine year old boy, his name is Wilson Hall. He remembers trudging through the swamp lands with his mother and the rest of his family in the early morning darkness. They made their way to Gulf Hammock, which was a 15 mile walk from Rosewood, where they

finally find safety. Other families find refuge in the swamps themselves, hiding out for days in the uncharacteristically cold Florida temperatures, because it's January. They're soaking wet and they're they're in just in a swamp. Sylvester's brother, who's Sarah Carrier's son, James, he's among those who escape through the swamps. He finds a hiding place when the Turpentine factory manager, a man named W.H. Pillsbury takes him in, a white man takes him in. But the hiding place doesn't last very long. And the mob soon finds him and forces him to dig his own grave, and then shoots him and buries him in it. This mob is so vast and widespread, that a man named Mingo Williams, who is 20 miles from Rosewood near the town of Bronson,

he's out collecting sap for the Turpentine factory. He's stopped by people from the mob. When they ask him his name, he says his nickname, which is Lord God. And they interpret that as him being arrogant. And so they shoot and kill him on the spot. So it's just they're berserking. Mayhem, yeah. By the end of the day, at least two women are raped and the combined death toll of everything jumps to at least eight, although it's believed there are many more unrecorded assaults and unrecorded casualties because they're doing things like walking people, making people dig their grave and then shooting them and putting them in it. So we would never know what any of that is. And it is, I think we've talked about this before, but when it came

to lynchings, nothing was official. Nothing was run through the authorities. Nothing was investigated. It was all, it happened. And then it was just supposed to be a warning and a threat. And that's all right. Never investigated. Yeah, not treated as a crime ever. So Sheriff Walker calls for backup from the surrounding town's sheriffs. Now he's trying to police the mob he basically created. Governor Kerry Hardy contacts Walker, saying he's ready to deploy the National Guard to help out. Yeah. But Sheriff Walker declines. Oh, dude. He says he's got everything under control and he doesn't anticipate further disorder. So Governor Hardy takes his word for it and goes on a hunting trip.

Meanwhile, the manager of the Turbotine Factory, he does what he can to help his black employees. He and his assistant, who's a man named Johnson, they're doing everything they can to convince the white employees not to join the mob and not to be a part of it. And Pillsbury's wife helps by smuggling some black people out of town while she can. The two general store owners, John and Mary Jo Wright, who are white, they hide black residents in their home through the night and into January 6th. And Sheriff Walker and his deputies who are not part of the mob, they're helping residents make their way to safety at the Wright's house. So they're basically trying to find people and get them to basically white people's safe houses.

And then having spent years working and trading with the people of Rosewood, there are two white train conductors who are brothers named John and William Bryce. So they decide they're going to lend a hand. So they basically drive the train as slowly as they can through Rosewood so that the women and children can hop on and they can take them up to Gainesville to safety. And they end up doing this several times. But they're too afraid of retaliation from basically the clansmen and the mob to go back and help the men of Rosewood who have been left behind, who were last to go. So after a full day of frantic evacuations, a mob of about 150 returns on January 7th, and they spend the day burning down what's left of Rosewood. At the end of the

rampage, the only building left standing is John and Mary Jo Wright's house because it's house of white people. Rosewood is otherwise completely destroyed and completely deserted. So fearing the optics of what has now just become a gigantic clan fueled race riot, Governor Hardy decides he needs to take some sort of action. So on February 11th, 1923, an all white grand jury meets in Bronson, Florida to investigate the events of the first week of January. Over the course of four days, they hear from 25 witnesses, only eight of those witnesses are black. Even still, the accounts are incredibly damning. But it isn't enough for the all white jury to prosecute anyone. Although the judge condemns, quote unquote, the acts of the mob,

when all is said and done, no arrests are made, no one's prosecuted, and no one is held accountable for the horrors of January of 1923. News reports immediately following the trial note that the events were, quote, deplorable and a, quote, foul and lasting blot on the people of Levy County. But after a week, basically, if this story falls out of the news cycle completely, and it only takes a few years for the country to forget about the massacre entirely. Sarah Carrier's husband Haywood had been on a hunting trip during the week of the massacre. So when he returns home, he finds his wife, his brother, and his son have all been murdered, and his entire hometown has been burned to the ground. His grief untethers him,

and he dies just a year after the massacre in 1924. According to official reports, there are eight deaths that occur during the massacre. The two white men, C.P. Pauli Wilkerson and Henry Andrews, and six black residents of Rosewood. Sam Carter, Sarah Carrier, Sylvester Carrier, James Carrier, Lexi Gordon, and Mingo Lord God Williams. But Minnie Lee Langley remembers, quote, stepping over many white bodies, unquote, during her escape. And other people recall, other survivors recall seeing a mass grave of black people. Oh my God. So the actual death toll probably starts at 27. And who knows how high it goes. The surviving former residents of Rosewood scatter around Florida and try to start their lives anew. For some survivors, the silence that

they choose is a matter of safety. Of course, the trauma haunts them. But they fear that revealing themselves as survivors might put a target on their backs. Minnie Langley just wants to protect her kids' innocence. It takes her 60 years to relate the story to her children. And she would later say, quote, I didn't want them to know what I came through, and I didn't want to discuss it with them. I just didn't want them to know what kind of way I come up. I didn't want them to know white folks want us out of our homes. So some of the survivors' descendants, like Arnett Doctor, see power in keeping the story alive. So when reporter Gary Moore finds him in 1982, he's more than willing to share what he knows about the Rosewood massacre. Behind his mother's

back, he goes with Moore to the original site of Rosewood and tells him Philomena's story. But when Philomena, his mother, finds out, she gets so angry, she slaps him across the face and threatens to disown him. She wanted her son to know the family history, but she still feared what would happen to them if they spoke out. And this was 1982. My God, the trauma, PTSD. Well, and also just it's not like the racism got any fucking better. Right. So in a later interview, Arnett comments that is, quote, Aunt Beauty said, it was a wise head that carries a still tongue. And I'm still sitting here running off at the mouth right now. So the resulting story that Gary Moore writes for the St. Petersburg Times,

which would later become the Tampa Bay Times, on July 25, 1982, it actually ends up getting made into an episode of 60 minutes, which then prompts living survivors. They see it and then they come forward to tell their stories and publicly shared their accounts of what happened to them that night. And more importantly, those Rosewood survivors and their descendants start to find each other. And on July 1, 1985, they hold their first annual Rosewood family reunion in Locucci, Florida. They also formed the Rosewood Family Advisory Committee, of which Arnett Doctor becomes the chairman. And he uses that position to contact high powered lawyers in hopes that he can find someone who will fight for some form of reparations for these survivors and their family in court.

So after Filomena Goyne's doctor, Arnett's mother passes away in 1991, Arnett's determination to gain justice intensifies into an obsession. What he doesn't know is that there's already a claims case in the works that was brought by other survivors and descendants. So he finds out about that. He's hurt that he wasn't involved, but eventually he joins in the fight and they bring him in to help. So the cases filed in 1993 by a law firm called Holland and Knight on behalf of 13 survivors and their descendants, including Arnett Doctor and Minnie Lee Langley. And in 1994, on the grounds of recouping loss property, a bill passes awarding a $2.1 million payment to be split amongst those who can prove

that they either lived in Rosewood in 1923 or are the descendants of those who lived in Rosewood. Wow. And not long after that, Florida's Department of Education sets up a scholarship fund for Rosewood descendants called the Rosewood Family Scholarship Fund. And in 1995, descendants of the Rosewood Massacre survivors create the Rosewood Heritage Foundation, which works to educate people across the US about the Rosewood Massacre. They organize traveling exhibits, heritage tours, and they provide information on the existing Rosewood Family Scholarship Fund for descendants who choose to pursue higher education. Then in 1997, director John Singleton, who found out about the story and was incredibly struck by it, he collaborates with Arnett Doctor

to make the film Rosewood. The movie receives a lot of negative criticism for fictionalizing and some say over dramatizing certain details. And Arnett also receives backlash from some of the fellow survivors' descendants for taking more credit than they believe he should for reviving Rosewood's story. And while Arnett may be considered controversial, Steve Hanlon, who's one of the lawyers who secured the payout for the survivors and their families, stated, quote, point blank, no question about it, it wouldn't have happened without him. So in 2004, Florida declares Rosewood a historical landmark. They erect a marker along State Road 24 listing the names of the known victims and briefly describing the events that

took place in January of 1923. And in March of 2015, 72-year-old Arnett Doctor passes away in Spring Hill, Florida, just a few hours south of Rosewood. Today, both the Rosewood Heritage Foundation and the Real Rosewood Foundation both run by descendants of the survivors who have now all passed away. They continue to work towards educating the public about Rosewood and about racial injustice. One descendant named Lizzie Jenkins, who works with the Real Rosewood Foundation, emphasizes the importance of telling painful and disturbing stories like the Rosewood massacre. She says, quote, it has been a struggle telling this story over the years because a lot of people don't want to hear about this kind of history. People don't relate to it or just don't want to

hear about it. But mama told me to keep it alive, so I keep telling it. It's a sad story, but it's one I think everyone needs to hear. And that's the story of the Rosewood massacre. Wow. I'm embarrassed that I had never heard of that. Well, but I think this is exactly the kind of stuff that does not get talked about, and it certainly doesn't get taught in most classrooms at all. Absolutely not. That's incredible. Great job. Thank you for telling that. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. So today, I'm going to tell you the story of the man who thwarted an assassination

attempt on Gerald Ford named Oliver Billy Sipple. So we're going to be in San Francisco for this one. I know the city. You love that place. You pee everywhere. Oh, my God. Hopefully, this takes place near where I have peed. You got a hope. I mean, the odds are highly in my favor. Okay. The sources used for today are a Washington Post article by Lynn Duke, a New York Times article by Jesus Rangel, an AP news article by Jennifer McNulty, and all that's interesting article by Natasha Ishak, and an episode of a radio lab, which I'll talk about more. Okay. All right. September 22nd, 1975. President Gerald Ford is in San Francisco attending a World's Fair Council meeting. I hate to stop your after your first

sentence, but didn't Squeaky from also try to kill? Okay. She did. I knew that. Oh, you were so confused. I'm like, did a bunch of people try to kill that guy? Here's the thing. Yes. And no one, the story is so not well. I'd never heard of this before. Yeah. I've never heard of it until recently. I just saw an article, you know, and was like, what the fuck? Yeah. Okay. Sorry. So sorry. Yeah. Everyone tried to kill Gerald Ford. I mean, Jesus. Poor guy. Okay. But lucky guy. He got lucky a couple times. So I know it's wild. It's intense. That afternoon, so the afternoon of September 22nd, 1975, a crowd of about 3,000 people are gathered outside the St. Francis Hotel in Union Square, hoping to catch a glimpse

of the president as he walks out of the hotel to his limo, which is parked up front. At 3.30 p.m. after speaking to the World Affairs Council, Ford emerges from the hotel and walks towards his limousine. And he pauses, of course, to wave at the crowd. Hello, hello. They're all cheering and they're just across the street. What the Secret Service don't know is that in the crowd is a woman with a gun who, as she later says, was hoping to incite, quote, a violent revolution. Oh. Sarah Jane Moore is a 45 year old West Virginia woman. She had had five divorces behind her. She had four children and she had moved to San Francisco and joined in radical politics. Five divorces? Five. At 45. Love is tough. It is. It's tough. Listen, look, relationships need a lot

of work. Constant. And then at a certain point, you just got to start over. That's right. Multiple times. You got to let go and let go. Okay. So she gets really into radical politics. Seems like she's a big fan of Patty Hearst's, like just obsessed. The day before she had been picked up by police on an illegal handgun charge and police had compensated a 44 caliber revolver and 113 rounds of ammunition, but had deemed her not a threat and had released her. She's not a threat, but what about all her ammunition? Her ammunition is definitely a threat. I mean, what did she, lipstick? A cute handgun. I think she also worked as a paid informant for the FBI, so they might have been like, let her go. Really? Is that your personal theory? It's not. I read it.

So I don't know why I said I think. No, but I like the idea that you'd be like, this feels to me like she's a paid informant for the FBI. Here's my theory. And it's loose, you know? It's not based in reality. I don't know where I'm getting this, but... So, but that day she had another gun on her, a.38 revolver. And as the president waves at the crowd, Jane Moore reaches her hand into her purse and pulls out a gun, aims it at Gerald Ford's head, and pulls the trigger. Now, there had been another assassination attempt on Ford just 17 days earlier. Oh, shit. Fuckin' people, women are coming at him everywhere. These hippy women with their big ideas. They're radical, inciting. So by Manson family member

Lynette Squeaky-From, she had approached him outside the California State Capitol Building. There's photos of it, not video, right? Yep, photos. And she's just an arms length from him, takes this gun out, points the pistol at him, pulls the trigger, but because she had not chambered around, don't I sound like I know what I'm talking about? Yeah, you do. Thank you. The gun didn't fire, and Squeaky was arrested. Yeah. So back to San Francisco. So Sarah pulls the.38 and fires the gun. She misses Ford's head by just five inches. The bullet instead ricochets off the side of the hotel and strikes this poor fucking taxi driver named John Ludwig in the groin. Oh, no. Bad day for him. It just a bruise. He was fine. He survived. Yeah. Oh, thank God. President

Ford freezes in place, and as Sarah's just standing there with her hand holding the gun, realizing she has to shoot again, she goes to take another shot. But before she's able to pull the trigger, a man in the crowd lunges at her, grabs the gun, pulling it down while holding her arm, and his brave act gives them enough time to tackle the woman. And Gerald Ford survives his second assassination attempt in three weeks. I mean, it's horrifying. Yeah. But that idea that he would be like, well, I went through this horrible thing with this. Yeah. Lunatic Manson acolyte. Yeah. And, you know, and I'm sure there was meeting after meeting about how we're going to tighten up the game and, you know, can't let this happen again. And then it just fucking

does. But both times, it's so, it says a lot about it. And that both times for the rest of the day, he went on with his meetings and stuff. He was all business that time. He was such a businessman. He didn't give a shit. He was like, that's like my sister, Tenora, where it's like, you can keep crying, but you have to move toward the car. You know what I mean? You're allowed to have a fucking meltdown. Look, we have a job here. You're still the president. You've got to keep doing that job. I mean, I would take a day off if I, if I'd stub my toe. I would run straight back into the hotel to the bar. Yeah. Give me that whatever the top most shelf, anything on there. Yeah. And then be like, and no one's allowed to talk to me. Well, back then in the limo, he probably had alcohol

everywhere. Cigarettes were being fucking, you know, like he had it there. Oh, I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. He gets on the fucking, what's it called? Plane, President Plane. Air Force One. And later days. I mean, they're all drunk all the time too, besides cigarettes, right? Yeah, but here's the thing. If he was drunk, he, he would not have frozen, he would have kept moving, but like that's very like, he froze like, deja vu. Yeah, this again? What? But this time a gun actually fired and like by five, hold on, how many five inches? That's very close to one's head. That is too close. That's as close as you want a bullet to be to your head. Definitely. So instead of becoming a national hero, though, and winning all the president awards, whatever they're called,

this, the Presidential Fitness Award, that's the one. Okay. This moment of bravery ruins the man's life. What? Okay. Let me tell you about him. Okay. His name is Oliver Sipple, and he's born on November 20th, 1941 in Michigan. He's one of eight siblings raised by very devout Baptist parents. He joins the Marines in 1967 and serves a tour in Vietnam. He's injured twice, including a head injury. One of the times Oliver is receiving treatment, the hospital he's in is bombed. It's just a very chaotic tour. When he returns to America, he suffers from what they used to call shell shock, but I'm sure it would now be diagnosed as combat PTSD. He becomes very emotional, starts receiving treatment at a Veteran's Affairs Hospital. He's found to be 100%

disabled due to emotional trauma, which I think is just a pretty normal thing that happened back then. After the war, yes. Especially Vietnam. Yes. During all four, during all fourth of July weekends, Oliver has to stay in a VA hospital so he can be away from the sounds of firecrackers. Very common. It's very common for Veterans of all kinds and in all processes. It's very common. Fireworks. It's so upsetting. It is. Unmarched, and they didn't know how to deal with it back then. Right. Yeah. They didn't know how to deal with most things back then, but especially stuff like that where, especially if you were a soldier, it's like, no, you have to man up. You're not supposed to have any, you're not supposed to care about anything. Right. I think the difference with

Vietnam is that in World War I and II, the soldiers are coming home as heroes. In Vietnam, of course, they're being vilified. Exactly. On March 23rd, 1970, Oliver is discharged from the reins. He moved to San Francisco so he can live the life he wants without upsetting his Baptist family because Oliver had been hiding the fact that he was gay since he was young, knowing he has to keep it to himself as his Baptist parents would never accept their child being gay. According to this radio lab episode, it's called Oliver Sipple, The Sound of Pride. San Francisco at the time, quote, is a place where you can be out, but to the people you left behind, you can still be in. Of course, that's San Francisco. Yeah. It's a place where you can

reinvent yourself. This is exactly what Billy does. He starts going by the name Billy instead of Oliver. He joins the San Francisco gay community. He starts going by the name Billy. He frequents gay bars. He marches in gay pride parades. He even joins the campaign for Harvey Milk, who's actually a longtime friend of his. They had become friends in New York. Of course, Harvey Milk is one of the first openly gay candidates for office. It seems like he's living his best life despite the issues he still deals with from combat PTSD. On September 22nd, the day in question, 1975, 33-year-old Billy is just taking one of his normal daily walks and he happens upon the crowd, gathered to see Ford outside the St. Francis,

decides to wait with them. He can see the president. Cut to Sarah trying to shoot the president. Billy's marine instincts kick in and he's able to basically disarm her despite his fear of loud noises like gunshots. Yeah. He's still able to just react immediately, totally heroic, and blocks her from taking another shot thus saving the president's life. Wow. I always wonder who knows what life would have been like if Gerald Ford had been assassinated. Right. In the same way if RFK hadn't been assassinated, I was just wondering what life would have been like. Well, just to imagine how close it came two times and just defying the odds. Totally. Also, just thinking about, even if you didn't have PTSD, the idea that someone

shoots a gun near you and you move toward them is so brave and so like he had to maybe overcome way worse fear than the average person would have or that's just, it's remarkable. It's heroic instincts. Yeah. You know? So, Sarah is apprehended by the Secret Service. President Ford is rushed into his booze-laden limo. Billy's taken in for questioning. He is shaking, of course, because he is scared of loud noises like that. He's questioned by Secret Service, released after three hours of questioning. They realize he has nothing to do with it. When he gets home, a reporter's already waiting for him there. Billy tells the reporter he wants to be left alone, like he doesn't want

any accolades for this. He says, quote, I'm a coward. I don't know why I did it. It was the thing to do at the time. Once he's inside his house, more reporters start calling him. When they learn that he's a former Marine, they learn that he's a former Marine. They're like, this is a big story. They start hounding him, asking him questions about his Marine training. They want to make this a big story. He asks them not to publish his name address. He doesn't want anything to do with this story. He's like, I reacted. I did this thing. I don't want the accolades for it. But by the following day, Billy's all over the news on TV, on the front page of the news. He's a reluctant hero. He really wants the media to stop focusing on him, hoping in the next couple

days they'll stop talking about it, but they don't stop hounding him. Unbeknownst to Billy, two of his friends, Reverend Ray Broshears, at the time LGBT spiritual leader and a highly vocal critic of the San Francisco police, as well as his friend Harvey Milk, tip off famous San Francisco Chronicle journalist, Herb Cain. Herb Cain. What do I always do? Every time. I cannot say the name Herb. Well, because no one has that name anymore. And so you're just reading it as an herb. But I always do the thing where I get it right this time, get it right this time, and then I and then I still do the wrong. Too much pressure. Herb Cain. A legend, by the way. Legend. Truly legendary. If you grew up in the Bay Area, Herb Cain was my just that's some somebody my parents

would talk about at the dinner table because he had a column, I believe in the chronicle. Yeah, it was like a gossip column, right? Well, it was kind of like, you know, it wasn't gossip as much as just like goings on about town. Who's who going on? Yeah, I believe so. Okay, well, they call him and they tell him they out Billy, essentially. And part of the reason Billy didn't want any of these accolades is because he didn't want it to come out that he was gay. No one knows, but his friends in town. Right. And so basically what happened is that Harvey Milk was really big on the fact that every if you're gay, you should come out of the closet because the, you know, the gay people were hated by the public. And so Harvey Milk and a lot of people's

idea was that if you come out and you're this normal person, you're not the stereotype that everyone thinks you are, then it's going to give us more credibility. So basically, in Harvey Milk's mind and other people's mind outing people against her will was okay for the cause. Well, and also, and I'm not sure about the timing of this, but there was around the same time because you said this is 1975. 1975. Because there was that they tried to pass a proposition they made that made it illegal for gay teachers to teach in public schools. And that was when Harvey Milk took to the streets and was just like, we cannot let them do stuff like this. And like, basically started his grassroots campaign. So I'm sure I mean, that I feel like I could be

wrong. But I feel like that was before this. But it's all about that where being in the closet is enabling these bigots to tell everyone else who and what gay people are when in fact gay people should be able to tell you who they are. But what a difficult time because you know, it's them just it's two other people deciding right what this man's life should be like. Which they I feel like they even understand that they're invading someone's privacy, but it's for the in their minds, it's for the greater good, because he is a true hero. Right. And it's so here. So Harvey sees Billy's heroic act as an opportunity to show the world that quote, gays do heroic things. And he's tired of people thinking, as he says, that gay people

are quote, limbristed child molesters perverts, you know, these fringe of society know they're they're Marines, they're heroes, they're people all around you. So Harvey Milk kind of thwart like went around, I think, what what Billy would have been okay with for the cause. I see that. I mean, yeah, but essentially ended up ruining Billy's life. Dan Moraine, a political affairs columnist at the Sacramento Bee says Harvey quote, used Billy's outing as an opportunity to promote gay rights. So on September 24th, the article by Herb. Yeah, Kane is published and it reads in part, Billy's simple quote was the center of midnight attention at the Red Lantern, a Golden Gate Avenue bar he favors. So without saying it's

a gay bar, kind of implies it, the Reverend Ray brochures, head of helping hands and gay Politico, Harvey Milk, who claimed to be among Sipple's close friends described themselves as proud. Maybe this will help break the stereotype. So the day after Herb Kane's article is published, reporters show up to Billy's apartment to interview him. Billy tells the reporters that he hasn't heard anything from the president like thanking him or even the mayor of San Francisco. He's only heard from the press. Before they leave, Billy asks the reporters not to disclose his sexuality. When the reporters ask about a sexuality, Sipple says quote, I don't think I have to answer that question. If I were homosexual or not, it doesn't make me less of a man than I

am. And they don't listen to him. Multiple national newspapers immediately start reporting on Billy and his sexuality. These newspapers don't just hint at a sexuality. They completely spell it out. Headlines include quote, gay vet, and quote, homosexual hero. Some papers even quote, speculate that President's Ford failure to promptly thank Billy for his heroic act is a result of Billy's sexual orientation. So like, you know, yeah, they're now they're kind of like twisting the story around. Yeah, it is weird that President Ford hasn't reached out to thank him for saving his fucking life. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. Many newspapers defend their decision to out Billy as gay. They say that mentioning Billy's sexuality is important because it quote, presents information

contrary to the stereotype of homosexuals as lacking vigor, which is something on the reporters believe activists want. Right. Like everyone's trying to act like this is what they told us to do. Yeah, it's good. We're saying he's a hero. Isn't this great? The newspapers feel like they are quote, raising significant political and social issues. But actually in Radiolab in the beginning of the episode, they interview the woman who tried to assassinate Gerald Ford. Sarah Jane Moore. Sarah Jane Moore, which is interesting. News of Billy's sexuality makes it to Detroit, where Billy's devout Baptist parents are living. And Billy's brother George later tells the Washington Post that seeing the news about their son being gay was quote, an embarrassing blow to their parents.

Billy's parents and siblings are hounded and teased about Billy's sexuality at work at the GM plant just days before fellow employees had been calling Billy a hero and congratulating his father and brothers. But now they're taunted and laughed at on the factory floor. At home, Billy's mother is harassed by neighbors and reporters. Billy's mother tells Billy that she never wants to speak to him again. Billy's father tells his brothers to forget that they have a brother. Billy's parents eventually they accept him back into the family. Billy's parents and siblings though they never fully accept him completely. And when Billy's mom dies, Billy's dad doesn't want Billy attending the funeral and he stays home in San Francisco. On September 25th, so just a couple days later,

Billy and his attorney hold a press conference where Billy says quote, my sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with the saving of the president's life, just as the color of my eyes or my race has nothing to do with what happened in front of the St. Francis Hotel on Tuesday. My sexuality is a part of my private life and has no bearing on my response to the act of a person seeking to take the life of another. I am first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life. I feel that a person's worth is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live, not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared. When asked what he would like to see happen now, Billy says, I don't know. I'm very shook up. I feel I'm feeling very sorry

for my family. It's awful, just awful. I've got nothing more to say. So he's completely traumatized by being outed. The next day, President Ford writes a letter to Billy, which is publicly released. Next, Ford wrote, quote, I want you to know how much I appreciated your selfless actions last Monday. The events were a shock to us all, but you acted quickly and without fear for your own safety. By doing so, you helped to avert danger to me and to others in the crowd. You have my heartfelt appreciation. So on the third, sorry, really quick, I just remembered that this was President Ford's second assassination attempt. And that's why he wasn't so quick with the thank you letters, because I bet you he was like fucking ripping people to shreds. You know what I mean?

Right? Wouldn't they have to circle up and be like, okay, this truly you guys, this can't happen again. So there's all kinds of internal strife. That's because I was like, why the hell wouldn't they thank him? Why wouldn't everyone a medal? Because everyone assumed it was because he was gay. Right. And which is true. He didn't get any kind of medal. He didn't get it. You know, everyone was like, he should have been invited to the White House in general. And President Ford should have shaken his hand like he should have been receiving all his accolades and Harvey Milk was vocal about it being obviously because he was gay. Right. You know, yeah. So finally, it sounds like he was maybe Gerald Ford was hounded enough in the

press that he sent that letter maybe reluctantly. But you're right. I'm sure there was a playbook being burnt. Yes. In the way. Yes. I'm sure. So then in response, Billy writes a letter to Ford Ford. He says the stories about his sexuality have caused, quote, great anguish to my parents and to the rest of my family. Billy tells Ford that it's, quote, a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have contact with you. He asked Ford to at least send his family a card or call his family to at least, you know, reach out to them. He says, quote, I love my family and do not wish to be separated from their loving companionship. Your help would be gratefully appreciated. But there's no evidence that Ford ever makes the call. He also never

publicly thanks Billy or shakes his hand. And Billy about this whole thing just feels bitter and disappointed. He files a $15 million lawsuit against seven newspapers accusing them of invading his privacy. And all the consequences that came with it, of course, his family finding out he was gay and abandoning him. And also that the newspaper, quote, exposed Billy to contempt and ridicule causing him great mental anguish, embarrassment and humiliation. In 1984, the lawsuit is dismissed by the California Supreme Court on the basis that Billy's sexual orientation had been known by, quote, hundreds of people prior to this. But of course, those people are just the San Francisco gay community. So it's not like it was a known thing. No. As time goes on,

Billy's health deteriorates. He starts drinking daily, heavily. He starts receiving treatment for paranoid schizophrenia, alcoholism and other health issues, including hypertension and heart problems. His health just completely deteriorates. It's obvious to those around him that Billy's struggling. He gets drunk and says he wishes he had never saved the president's life, saying it wasn't worth his life being ruined. Yes, that's completely understandable. Yeah. On February 2nd, 1989, Billy's friend Wayne Friday is asked to do a welfare check on Billy. How sad is this? The bar that he frequented all the time, the bartender hadn't seen him in a few days and was worried about him. Those were his regular friends at that point. Wayne goes to Billy's place and

doesn't get an answer at the door and can already smell through the door that Billy's dead. The landlord lets him in and Billy is dead and had been for some time, a few days. Billy's sitting in a chair with a bottle of Jack Daniels nearby. The TV's still on. He's died of natural causes, but he's only 47 years old. I know. Following Billy's death, President Ford writes a letter to Billy's friends and family that reads in part, quote, I strongly regretted the problems that developed for him following this incident. It saddened me to learn the circumstances of his death. Mrs. Ford and I expressed our deepest sympathy in this time of sorrow involving your friend's passing. And actually, when he was found dead, President Ford's original letter was framed

on his wall, on Billy's wall. I know. Oliver Billy, Sipple is buried at the Golden Gate National Cemetery. Today, multiple law review articles and more than a dozen books and commentary pieces have mentioned the ethical implications of newspapers outing Billy against his will as a subject's right to privacy. In 2011, Mayor Ed Lee of San Francisco signed a resolution making September 22, which is in two days from now, meaning two days ago for people listening, Oliver Sipple Day. And Billy Sipple is thought of as an LGBTQ hero by those that know the story despite him never wanting to be outed in the first place and the event of saving President Gerald Ford's life, ruining his own life. And that is a sad tragic story of the hero, Oliver Billy Sipple.

Wow. I am from, I was born in San Francisco. I was raised in a baria. I've never heard the story. Yeah. The name Sarah Jane Moore was familiar. I always thought she was one of the Manson family. Yeah, I know. Every time her name would come up, I would just go, oh, she must have been another. Right. Like I just had, I had it also confused. And this story is, I would just think at some point I would read it in a magazine or newspaper. Yeah. About how they, you know. I think I got it on like Reddit. It's like, I never heard of it before. And it is funny, because when you hear the President Gerald Ford being assassination attempt happening, you think squeaky from like that's part of the narrative of the Manson family.

Yeah, this one. Then two weeks later. Then there's another one. It happens again. And that like, God, everything about that is so fateful and sad and hard because this was a person who already was having a hard time, but was kind of like taking it back and getting his life and living the life he wanted to live. Totally. Getting healthy because his life was his own. Yeah, but still had so many issues. And of course, yeah, of course she wouldn't want to be the center of attention if you are having all these issues to begin with, but also have to kind of be in the closet for one side of your life. Right. You know? Yeah. And like, yeah, just the the outing of someone who did not want to be out is so unethical.

I also think the way things have changed is so drastic. And I know this is such an old person thing to say, but like the kids today don't understand. My friend, Sam Pancake, who is a brilliant actor and a hilarious comedian who also does shows because he does go to Tampa. So he talked about this one time on a podcast. I think it may have been Pod Safe America because they were doing live shows at the improv before COVID started. And he kind of talked about that where the kids today, the difference is so vast from how it was like in the 80s growing up. Even in that recently, they don't understand how bad it was. And especially like in, you know, when when AIDS hit, like it was like, even if things

were starting to improve, you know, in the 70s, the actions Harvey Milk was taking, the kind of like the this upswing and then the AIDS epidemic and the what that did to people and what that did to gay visibility, gay rights, just and also just the gay population and the mishandling not mishandling the outright fucked up in this Reagan and Bush just completely ignoring the AIDS epidemic for political reasons and letting thousands and thousands of people die because of politics. It's just it's just it's a beautiful thing how much it's changed. But yeah, but there's still a long fucking way to go. Yeah. And also, I think just people need to like stuff like this is like the more we can hear

stories about it. I mean, I cannot wait to listen to that radio lab because what an amazing tale and and there's so many things like that that just are just not discussed. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if the radio labs it's from 2017. So I don't know if you can listen to it. But like, I don't know if that's are you going to try to get me to sign up for a subscription. So I just was hoping that if you could sign right here. No, but so you can find the episode on the Sound of Pride, the WNYC Studios podcast. So you could find it there. It's like Oliver Sipple from Radio Lab. Cool. Yeah. Amazing. That was a great story. Great find. Right. Totally. Yeah. Those were good stories this week. Really good. Well, shit, we did it again. Wow. That was

that was a great show. Yeah, I'm proud of us. No, it's good. I mean, wow, it's almost kind of like unknown, unknown, untalked about. Yeah. Stories that should actually be very widely known. Absolutely. Yeah. Let's fucking do more of those. Please. Oh, before we go, we actually do have a very, very exciting announcement. We do. Yeah. Because we have a trailer that's about to play after this episode. We have a trailer that's about to play for our first original, exactly right, limited series. We are so excited to share this with you guys. It's been in the works for like a long time. It's been over two years since we have been working with the great, great performer, writer, journalist, superstar Dave Holmes. So talented. We're obsessed with him.

The minute he was like, the minute the word podcast came out of his mouth near us, we were like, yes, and you can do whatever you fucking want. Yes. And then the idea he had was so unique and rad that we've just been losing our minds over it. Very excited because Entertainment Weekly just covered this story, which we're very, very excited about. That was that was really exciting. And because essentially Dave has been obsessed with a band called Sudden Impact, who is featured in the Boys To Men video, Motown Philly, from 1991. It's been a very long time. Yeah. It's a very obscure reference and moment in time when everyone used to watch videos and everyone used to know all the same, all the same, all the same references. We listen to all the same music, even if you

didn't like it, you knew White Snake, even if you, you know, I mean, we all, as Dave calls it, the mono culture, we were all involved in it. Yeah. And there was a very popular video that featured a three-second clip of a boy band posing. Yeah. Called Sudden Impact. So their name was Sudden Impact and then they just disappeared. And Dave Holmes, who is, as everyone knows, a pop culture obsessive, has not stopped thinking about this three-second clip and who were Sudden Impact? What happened? Where did they go? Why did he never hear about them again? So you can find out all about, and even if you, even if you're 12 years old and you don't know any of those things we're talking about, this is the most compelling and fascinating story of one

of those, not even aware are they now, but where did they, wherever were they in the first place? And then from there, he so brilliantly turns it also into the story of the people he ends up interviewing about that time of place and their career. And so it's so much more than this boy band story. Right. It's about the pursuit of fame. It's about show business. It's about what are you, what you start out thinking you want and what you end up getting and how for almost everybody, that is not a straight line. Yeah. And that is not a direct route. And it's a really, really well done podcast. We're so, so proud of it. So after this episode, you can listen to the Waiting for Impact trailer. Yeah. Just keep listening and you'll hear it.

And check out the premiere on October 12th here on Exactly Right. And there will be new episodes every Tuesday. And of course, please subscribe. We know and we've told you that it really makes a huge difference when you subscribe to podcasts. That's Waiting for Impact. Please go subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. It might be on Stitcher. It might be on Amazon Music, wherever you listen, you know, all throughout, throughout thick, then us eating candy corn in your ear. Thanks for listening. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Nice. Did it. Elvis, do you want a cookie? It's the summer of 1991. The peak of the monoculture. Everyone is watching and listening to or at

least aware of the same TV shows, movies and music. The internet hasn't had its way with us yet. A song comes out that summer from the R&B group Boys to Men. It's called Motown Philly. In the music video, we meet Boys to Men and the other groups in the East Coast family. Another bad creation. Bel Biv DeVoe. And then two minutes and 38 seconds into the video, we meet another group. Five young guys in matching white button down shirts, each with his own unique necktie, their name and lights above them, sudden impact. They point at the camera. They point at you. Like, are you ready for sudden impact? I was a young guy in the Midwest at the time, glued to MTV, dreaming of a life in the entertainment

industry. I was ready for sudden impact. The world was ready for sudden impact. Motown Philly just came out there on MTV for the first time. And the first question is, who's those white guys in the video? You know, like he's already promoting an act that doesn't exist yet. Here it is. You're going to love this. This is my universe. This is my record label. Enjoy. Thank you. Or pardon me, you're welcome. I couldn't wait to see what sudden impact was going to do next. What they did next was disappear. I'm Dave Holmes. And as a former MTV VJ and professional pop culture obsessive, I've been thinking about sudden impact for 30 years. I always wanted to know what happened. So I decided to find out. And let me tell you,

what happened was a lot. We actually got signed to Motown off of a poster without them even hearing any music. Music probably saved his butt from going to jail. Wow, we could really make it. We could do this. We could do that. It ain't right, man. You're playing God with me. Let me fucking go. If you don't plan on doing something, let us fucking go. Two grown men just broke up. Like two heterosexual males just broke up. Am I still holding onto that hope? Like, oh, I can't wait to see this. I still have that because I don't like thinking that it's over for anybody. I always suspected there was a story behind sudden impact. I had no idea. I'm going to track these guys down one by one. And I'm going to find out what happened. And I'm going to try to answer the most bewildering

question of them all. Why can't I stop thinking about them? This is a podcast about big swings, about high hopes, about what happens when your best laid plans go sideways. It's about the 90s and what we left there. This is Waiting for Impact, a Dave Holmes passion project. Be sure to listen to the show's premiere on Tuesday, October 12th, on Exactly Right. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Subscribe now on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. Twitter at myfavemurder. And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to myfavoritmurder.com. Rate, review, and subscribe!