My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 33 - What About Mimi?

Episode Date: September 9, 2016

This week, Karen and Georgia talk the increasingly surreal Jane Mixer case along with the Co-ed Killer and then recount the incredible survival of Jennifer Morey. Come have tea with us, Rosemary & Thyme style on My Favorite Murder.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hi. Hello.

No. That's how we started it this week. Hi everybody. Hi. Are you there? Hello. Hi. That's Karen.

Who's this? That's Karen. Oh, and that's Georgia. Thank you. These are our voices if you can't tell them apart. Oh, yeah. You do yours. Okay.

Hi. This is Georgia. I gasp into the microphone a lot. Hi. This is Karen. I sing and it lie. And this is my favorite murder, which is a podcast where we talk about murders that happen that interest us and intrigue us and hopefully make your time at work in the swimming pool

or on a darkened road while you take a walk, go by a little bit faster. You're welcome. Goodbye. That's it. Oh, that was it. It's such an effort to do like an official beginning of this fucking podcast. Let's get into it. Let's fucking get into it.

Let's pass it all by. All right. Let's keep being. Well, so Jacob. This is the thing we want to talk about that I said, don't fucking talk to me about until a podcast. That's right. She's very stern.

I'm very stern. So Jacob Wetterling, what is he, 13-year-old kid who went, he was kidnapped. It was him, his brother and a friend. They were riding their bikes to the store and a guy held them again point and told the other two to run away and took Jacob. 1989, which we have said many times that the 80s are going to be under arrest for being fucking shitty. It was not a good time for us as children.

Well, speaking of, I just watched a documentary that is now on Netflix over the weekend called Who Took Johnny? I stared at that all weekend going, watch it, Karen. This is supposed to be your thing and I couldn't bring myself to watch it because I've heard them talk about it on last podcast and it is so dark and it's so creepy and it is so not your average kidnapping. I just didn't want to have to take it in. I agree.

There's a lot of information. The thing I took away from it, hold on, the Johnny guy, I'm fucking running. The thing I took away from it is that his mother and like this is the only positive thing is the biggest badass in the fucking world. So the whole thing like kind of centers, follows her around and what she had to go through like when her son got kidnapped and when the police, 72-hour waiting period with this little boy who in the dark on his paper route in the morning, his papers were left behind, his adorable doxen which was left behind, which why would you do that?

And they said, they thought he ran away. So she had to go to great lengths for years and years and became an advocate just like John Walsh is without a TV show for children and it's amazing what she's done. I can't, I can't take it in. You got to watch it. And I just, I'm so tired. I'm so tired. I'm sorry.

No, that's okay. Well, the Franklin cover up comes into play. It's so hard to believe. I have such a hard time with so many of these little, like there's two things. One of them is that a guy gets arrested and says that he was one of the people who took Johnny gosh and he became a sex slave. Right. And the other thing is that the moms says that she saw him, Johnny as an adult came

to her door. Right. And those two things, like if you believe them both, it's a fucking insane story. If you don't, then it's a fucking insane story because people are crazy. Yeah. The thing about it is, you know, it's, if it was just everything peeled away of just the facts that you actually know, it's an intense tragedy of just a child disappearing. There's, that's the worst case scenario because then you're a grieving parent who never gets

relief and what that might do to you. But then there's also the thing of it's just like, I think the reason people like stranger things or whatever it's that thing of, well, then you must be crazy if you are in grief to this degree, you, and of course with the mothers with women, it's always your crazy. And so a woman trying to get answers and get her child help and get some action when she's being deemed crazy, which is the ultimate stamp that people can negate you and your voice with. Yeah.

She was saying that too. Like men, men are stern, but women are shrill, you know, it's the patriarchy, it's the, but it's the standard bullshit. And yet she was able to change laws and be an advocate for children who have gone missing and, and turn her grief into something useful and worthwhile. Not that grief is not those things, but no, that's great. That's amazing. That's a huge upswing.

She's amazing. Yeah. I, I definitely, I know it's a hard, it's a hard case, but it's a really good final documentary. Fine. Fine. Fine. Quit your four jobs that you have and stay home and watch who took Johnny.

Here's what I did too. And but sorry, we started that by mentioning that Jacob Wetterling's remains were finally found. So his parents have rest. And there was a lot of people who sent us that it makes me really happy that people send us those articles and they're so, you know, enthusiastically like, oh, it's such a nice idea to think that after all these years, those at least, at the very least, those parents have a little bit of rest and a little bit at like, at just at least they know where

he is. Well, I was, so I read that about him being found and they hadn't released a lot of details about it. Now there's more stuff coming out like who, like the guy confessed to it and that's how they found the body. But so the whole time I was watching who took Johnny, I was just, and all these twists and turns that maybe was this and it could have been this and he might be still alive and an adult and all these things and I couldn't help but just like picture his, this sad,

his bones buried somewhere remote as in the exact same way he looked when he got taken and these crazy stories of what happened that are just not true. And in the meantime, these lonely bones and just made me sad. I know it's, it's so tragic. It's heavy, heavy shit. That's why I'm going to clumsily segue now into my next piece of housekeeping because let's just, let's not live there forever. I'm sorry.

Did I get too dark? Not at all. No, this is what we, this is what we like, but we can't just like, you know, we have to continue. Yeah. I have an apology to make for anyone who heard me talk shit about the British procedural rosemary and time because what I did this weekend was watch probably 20 episodes of rosemary and time, which is a hilarious, it's not supposed to be hilarious, but I found

it so enjoyable, so relaxing. It's two like middle-aged British women who are gardeners and they go, they keep getting hired. It's very murder. She rodey. Except there's two of them and they get hired to fix people's beautiful British gardens. It sounds like two fat ladies. Yeah.

But they're very attractive women and not, I found the two fat ladies attractive in their own way. They don't have to. They had great personalities. Okay. Anyhow, these two are so enjoyable to watch the murders, which is ludicrous. There's always two murders. Everywhere they go, people are dropping like flies.

No one cares. They're never suspected, but the, but half of more than half of the show, it takes place in the most gorgeous gardens you've ever seen. So there's a real like, you can see them aiming at like probably like a 60 year old lady who's going to sit in her chair at night, knit, eat some candy and watch this show. That sounds fucking amazing. I was that lady this weekend and I fucking loved it. I was so relaxed.

You have to see it. It's, but one time someone asked me about British procedurals and someone recommended rosemary and time. And oh, was I flippant about how that was grandma, grandma crime show and I don't care. Well, I'm, I apologize, whoever I said that to, I am 1000% wrong. I love Rosemary time with the best of them and Pam Ferriss and I wrote their names down because Felicity Kendall and Pam Ferriss are the two stars. They're so goddamn good.

And Pam Ferriss went on to star in a show called called the midwife, which I also love a lot. Which one was she? She is the nun that wears the habit all the time. She's like all business nuns. She looks like everyone in my family. I love that show. Call the midwife.

I love call the midwife and she's, she's like holds it down on there. So she's been on British TV for like 40 years. It sounds like a combination of a murder she wrote and the great British bake off. Yes. Where you're just kind of being soothed by British voices, a little violence, gorgeous flowers. I mean, you can't have one without the other and you shouldn't. And also what I love is in a British procedural, you will watch them casually drinking tea.

And I just love the fact that people like cut out time in the day and drink tea and eat cookies. I think there's bourbon in there. I might just say that because I just had bourbon in there. It's probably everywhere. I mean, deep down. I mean, as you un, uncapul just like vodka, undergrain vodka, other housekeeping housekeeping. I think that Rosemary and time apology was my number one housekeeping pretty much this

week. That was correction corner. Yeah, that was a huge correction because also once again, I've gotten it wrong with England. Oh, hey, we're in entertainment weekly. Oh, hey, guess what? Right. We just found this out tonight.

Yeah. Someone very nice. I'll look them up. Let's give a ye olde shout out. They were like a stage mom that I've never had that gave a shit where they it's D train. Of course D trains there for us at D train writes, Hey, did you see the show in entertainment weekly? Congrats.

And the answer was no, we absolutely had not. We didn't know it was going to be in there. We're in there with Atlas Obscuro, which is a rad website. We're in there with a band called Sun Youth. I'm sure young people love them. I'm sure that they're cool. It's like a bunch of dudes in stretched out white t-shirts with really sparse facial hair. Can I read you my text exchange about it with my dad, please?

So I sent him the photo that D train sent us. And I said, my podcast is an entertainment weekly because you know the only thing that seems legitimate is if you're on television or in a magazine, that's right. Like it doesn't matter if you're on the website. That's right. And he said, OMG, wonderful, very proud of you. Go girl. Marty.

Then he said, comedian. I like the sound of that. And I said, me too. And he said, is this on Facebook? I'd like to share it daddy. That's your job down. Thanks dad. Go ahead and throw that up on Facebook with a baby picture.

Let's see it. Yeah. Well, that's funny because I texted my sister, Adrienne and Audrey, who are my hometown Posse and all fans of the show. Not Laura. She doesn't listen to it. My sister doesn't give it. She's like, I don't have time.

A fact. And I literally have told her when she can listen to it. I'm like, when you drive after you drop off your daughter. My sister in law is the only one who listens to it from my family. Like my not related person is the only one who can hear my voice and hate me. Well, Adrienne, Audrey and Adrienne both totally listened to it. So I went on to our nonstop constant group text and just went, Hey, you guys look up. We're in entertainment weekly.

No one answered for a while. And then Adrienne responded. What magazine is that? I'm like, don't make me fucking say it twice. And then no one answered for a while. And then I had written, will someone please go buy one and give it to my dad. And so then nobody answers for a while and then Adrienne comes back and goes, Laura, are you on that?

Oh, you're like, hello. Yeah. I was like, this is classic. And then I was like, sorry for bragging. And then my sister called me, of course, just like, I'm so proud of you. Yeah. I sent it to my mom and dad. I haven't heard a word from my mother.

Well, hates me. No, I'm kidding. I kind of just shout out Yolanda, my sister in law and how sweet she is. She listens. Yeah. Oh, was she at the wedding? Of course. I may have met her.

Yeah. Um, thanks, Yolanda, it's you're the most important kind of family, which is the family that listens to the podcast. It doesn't hate you for cracking an egg over your head and when you were five. That's right. There's no grudges, no old grudges with those in-laws. All I've been in her mind is a great aunt. Good time party gal.

Yeah. Yeah. Good time party. Probably a good gift giver, I would say. I'm terrible at good giving. Really? She's a great gift. I'm a piece of shit.

What? Gift cards? Gift cards everywhere? I just forget. Yeah. More than that. I try to make it seem like, uh, as if I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, I don't give gifts. I don't either.

Like, oh, Karen doesn't do that. Can we agree? And we did this on our last birthdays that we don't give each other gifts. Let's not do that to each other. Never. Never. No. I might, I might pick you up something if I see it.

Yeah. Totally. It's like, let's go Karen. All year round. Yeah. But if it has to be on your birthday, I'm going to let you down. I'm going to get dressed out and then feel guilty. No way.

I don't even, we podcasted on your birthday and I didn't even know it was your birthday. Because I don't want to put that shit on people. I get it. But then I feel worse. I didn't know. I know. But what do you get? I'm not on Facebook.

I keep to myself. I'm a fiercely private person. Hey, it's my birthday today. You can't say that? Didn't it feel weird just now? Yeah. All right. Let's talk about murder.

Are you ready? That was called, that was called family forum. That last part. That was called working out friendship details, friendship rules. This is an important thing because I swear to God, if I'm friends with a person and they give me some fucking three stacks of beautifully wrapped gifts on my birthday, I'm like, get off. Yeah.

We're not going to be. I don't want this from you. You're going to be very disappointed when your birthday rolls around. You aren't getting this from me. Yeah. And then I feel obligated and I write this card that's like, hey, thank you for forcing this friendship. Liking me.

Out of me. Over a fucking meal. All right. Yeah. And actually you should. And I will. I feel you owe me. Who went first last week?

I think you did. Okay. Good. Am I wrong? All right. We're taking a quickie break. Stay tuned. And then my favorite murders are happening.

Hey, I'm Arisha and I'm Brooke and we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston, Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched, but her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva will tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people

led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. We're back. And we're back. And. Hi. We're back.

Hey. All right. Hey. George's first this week. Okay. So. Are you ready to put your phone down and listen to me? I was going to send you that picture.

You get me every goddamn time. What if I was that big of a dick? Are you ready to listen? That's my one trigger. Is phone stuff? No. I'm kidding. I don't give a shit about anything.

I'm pulling this microphone forward and leaning back. Go to instagram.com slash my favorite murder to see a photo we just took. Yeah. I have no makeup on. Neither do I. And my pants are just completely unbuttoned and unzipped. It's my Alicia Keys photo. All right.

I'm taking this out. Is it going to make a lot of noise? Are we good? No, I'm not. I'm not going to make one move. Steven, you better tell her if she. I just want to relax. She's got an eye on her.

Okay. Yeah. You clonks. Give me the finger. All right. All right. So my favorite murder this week is that of Gary Earl Lederman and the Michigan Murders. So it's kind of a mashup.

Okay. All right. In the late 1960s, there was a serial killer targeting young women in the college town of Ann Arbor, Michigan. He was called the co-ed killer. He became known as a co-ed killer and he murdered women in an Iran, Ann Arbor in a two-year period. His M.O. was picking up young women between the ages of 13 and 21, then he would rape,

beat, and murder them typically by stabbing or strangulation. Sometimes their bodies would be mutilated, which I don't get into, don't worry. Okay. If you're a squeamish. After death, before being discarded in a desolate area. And he was also known to visit their bodies before they were found. Ooh. Yeah.

He was a fucking creep. Yeah. Like a gross, fucked up, sadistic creep. He was the OG Ted Bundy, it sounds like. Yeah. He was like, I think, I don't know, I should have looked this up, but they must have had the term serial killer already because they called him that, but it was like before this was like a known thing, serial killing.

So two young women attributed to the co-ed killer had been found when the body of Jane Mixer, a brilliant 23 year old law student at the University of Michigan was found on March 21st, 1969. She was found in a cemetery just west of Ann Arbor, and it was assumed she was a victim of the serial killer, the co-ed killer. But some of the details of her murder were different than the established MO of the co-ed killer. Jane had disappeared after posting a note on a college ride share bulletin board and

I'll fuck, right? I mean. Oh honey. Yeah. So she was seeking a ride across the state to her hometown of Muskegon, where she intended, oh my God, this is the worst part, she intended to inform her family of her engagement and imminent move to New York. Like she intended to inform everyone of the beautiful life she was building for herself

and was excited to start. She just had some great news. Yeah. It's like, oh, her parents had been waiting for this day. Yeah. That's why she met at law school, who was a sweet angel. They were going to move to New York and pursue their careers. Her sweet baby angle.

That's my saying. Oh right. TM. Thank you. Yeah. It makes me really sad, but you know, like, I wonder how, like, there's one thing about hitchhiking that we are always like, don't hitchhike, but the other thing of like putting it, hey, if anyone's heading to like fucking Muskegon and you ride.

I mean, in this day and age, I think it's a little bit better. If you're going to do that in 1969, don't don't get away from any cork board of any kind. Yeah. There's nothing good is happening. No. Everything's laced with acid. Come on.

Oh, those were great quotes. Amazing. Yeah. I'm really mad about it. I had no idea. No, it's ridiculous. So her body had been found in a cemetery atop a grave. Whoa.

And she had been, and we learned this from how to say this from Jean Benet, garauded. Correct? Yeah. Garrett it? Garrett it. All right. With a nylon stalking, and it wasn't her own stalking, it was come to find out. But the way she died was that she was shot twice in the head with a.22 caliber.

She hadn't been beaten or sexually assaulted like the other victims of the co-ed killer had, but she did have her dress pulled up showing her underwear. But it had been carefully covered up with her yellow raincoat afterwards, and her shoes and her copy of Catch-22 had been carefully placed nearby. So like this person took care. Was like painting a picture. Yeah. And like covering her body is such, I mean, we all know what it means now, but back then

it was like, we didn't understand, like that really meant caretaking this person. Right. Which means a personal relationship, usually. I didn't. Yes. Yeah. All right. I thought that's what you were saying.

No, but you're right. I just, yeah. I mean, yeah. You're so smart. I'm just going to hand this whole podcast over to you. Don't do it. Please don't do it. So four days after she's discovered, the body, another body of the co-ed victim, the co-ed

killer is found, Marilyn Skeleton. She disappeared while hitchhiking in Ann Arbor, and her murder more closely resembled the ammo of the serial killer. I wrote fucked up fact. Each woman up until this point, including Jane Mixer, had been menstruating at the time of their death. Oh. What in the actual?

Fuck. What? What are the chances? Okay. Who works at the tampon store? Is my first as I'm? Oh, you think it's a, well, they wore sanitary napkins, like one up to their chin. Who sold those sanitary napkin belts?

Did you just say that one up to their chin? Have you seen these things? Can I tell you a hilarious and very quick anecdote? Always. My friend, Lisa Lanyon, who I went to high school with, should you be saying her full name? Are you about to tell them? No, she'd like it.

Okay. Um, I spent the night at her house one night and I wanted to wash my face before we went to bed. I couldn't find anything to hold my hair back and then I found this, this, uh, this white elastic, weird headband that had plastic clips on it. I was like, whatever, double it up, threw my hair back, wash my face, came out of the bathroom. Her mother started laughing so hard she could not breathe.

And then Lisa was like, Karen, you have a sanitary napkin belt on your head. The joke is on them because what the fuck? It was like some old thing. I think she, I think the story was like her mom showed her like this is what you used to have to use and then threw it in the bathroom drawer. Oh my God. It was like some old thing she found of like, Lisa, can you believe this? She used to have her mom had this great British, uh, Boston accent.

Her mom was hilarious. That is the most beautiful story I've ever heard in my life. I, um, her mom lost her mind when she saw me and she was like, you are the funniest girl. I was like, I was just putting a hairband in my hair. How embarrassing. But good for you for washing your face before bed. Thanks, G.d.

Pro tip as someone who has opened adult acne on her face right now. Always wash your face before bed. Seriously. It's something that's very hard to do. Once you're in your like fourth episode of Rosemary time, you're like, I'm not getting off this couch. Who cares? That's why within arms reach at all times you have a face wipes everywhere.

Oh yeah. Girl. Tip for the lazy, there'll be more of those coming up. We're very lazy. Um, that was a great segue. That was the best story I've ever heard. Okay. Sorry.

No, don't sorry. That needs to be the girl who makes those amazing cartoons with us. Oh yeah. Comic strips of us. Can she, can that lovely girl please make one of this story? Yeah. And give me a button. No.

I demand it. Everyone keeps commenting when I put photos like drawings on Instagram of how that you have a button nose and amazing cheekbones in every drawing because you do. That's right. You just bend people to your will. Yep. Tell me I'm pretty. We won't share.

We won't share. I see you challenge. We're friends. Matt McCarthy actually texted me button nose the other morning. He did. Aw. Shout out to Matt McCarthy. He listens.

It was sarcastic. Yeah. But he listens. He listens and loves. Maybe he sarcastically listens. No. I think he genuinely listens but was being sarcastic about my button nose. Okay.

So Matt McCarthy with the We Watch Wrestling podcast. We Watch Wrestling podcast. If you like wrestling. All right. All right. Back to the story. Back to the murders. Back to murder.

All right. So. All had been menstruating. Crazy creepy. Fucking weird. Yeah. And like seems linked, right? What are the chances?

What are the chances? Okay. So after three more murders of a 13-year-old named Don Luis Basim and 21-year-old Alice Elizabeth Callum with his final victim, which was due to his capture being an 18-year-old named Karen Sue Benerman, John Norman Collins, a former fraternity dude was caught. He's that young? Yeah. Or he's just former?

Yeah. He was, oh God, I don't know of his age, but he was a young man. He was in college? Yeah. Like college age too? Yeah. And honestly, like between you and me, he was fucking hot. Oh, that's, they're the worst.

That's the fuck it. It's the Ted Bundy thing. Well, that's why these girls would get in his car and get on his motorcycle. He was a cute college dude. He's not anymore. He's fucking gross. But look at an old photo of, right? He was.

Well, no one's going to go with a gross guy. If a guy rolls up and is like, hey, can you help me with my thing? And yeah. And they look creepy. People are going to go, no, I can use my very basic senses to be like, no, thanks. Yeah. It's this automatic thing of trusting an attractive face. That's right.

Man. Giving credit to being attractive. Does that mean you're a good person or trustworthy person? So what does it mean that people think I'm a terrible person? Does that mean I'm an attractive? Nobody thinks that. Wait, you're trying to give people rights? Always.

You're rolling up and trying to get people to get into your car. To not kill them. Yeah. Just to drive them around and talk about your own stuff. Yeah. I just think like to vent sometimes when I say I went to therapy today, all I mean is I picked someone up and made them drive around with me for an hour. You made them listen to you for an hour.

Yeah. I gave them 20 bucks and dropped them off. Thank you. Okay. But so he had been interviewed by police previously, but had been eliminated as a suspect. And part of the reason he was caught was due to the identification by a clerk of the wig shop, which his last victim named Karen had visited. Yes.

This was an episode of the crime to remember. The one with the car? What? Like the one thing they knew about him, like they had no idea who it was for a long time, but the one thing they knew it was like a blue car. It was a motorcycle. Oh. Oh.

Is that the one where the little girl gets kidnapped like from her driveway? Yes. And they knew the car. Yeah. And that turns out it was a guy that lived right in the neighborhood? Yeah. Okay. I'm combining.

Sorry. I'm combining. Yeah. I know you're right though. So Karen, the last Karen. I've watched too many crime shows. Oh my God. They're all the same in my mind now.

So Karen. Hi. Karen was the last person who was murdered by him that day, the day of her disappearance had visited a wig shop. And the clerk had remembered that Karen was visiting her store to purchase a hairpiece and there was a young man waiting outside for her on a blue motorcycle. Oh. And Karen told the clerk, I mean, man, this bums me out, ready?

She said to the clerk to observe the man with whom she had accepted a ride in a motorcycle, stating that she had made two foolish errors in her life, purchasing a wig and accepting a ride from a stranger. And then she stated, I've got to be either the bravest or the dumbest girl alive because I just accepted a ride from this guy. What a fucking chances. She was then seen climbing onto the motorcycle before riding away with him. You know, that makes me think of, it's like when you get a bad feeling in your gut and

you make light of it. That's right. And you feel like, oh, if I just say this to one person, it'll make it less a bad feeling of my gut. Isn't this crazy? Exactly. When you're like, this crazy thing just happened to me. This person assaulted me and you're like, you should be taking it seriously.

Well, no, I just mean it more in the way of like before anything happens, before anything bad happens, but you do have the thing of this isn't right. Like what? That. That. But I was gonna, I mean, from your own life, are we fighting? That was amazing. Like what?

No, I meant from your own life. Like what? Most of the time, if I get a thing, I walk. I don't do this. But I think probably back when I drank, I would do it more. Right. Like there wasn't a lot of information coming in because of like the gallons of whiskey that I had inside.

Yeah. There's definitely jokes I've made that are like, like, I have a hot date tonight and it's like, well, it's just with this, with this person, you don't fucking know. Yeah. And it's, and you're really actually, you should be afraid. Yeah. You're nervous and you're telling people and you're trying not to act quote unquote weird by telling them I'm nervous.

So you're just trying to make a joke about it. But then Ben's and I got married. So it's fine. No, but one time I did go on a date with someone, I was going on a date with someone and I gave his phone number to my best friend. This is before self, like most before cell phones to be like, Hey, if I don't show up tomorrow. Yeah.

This is here's my end. Here's his info. Yeah. That's not cool. Well, but also now, because a lot of people talk about this to us, which is I don't want to leave my house. I'm so anxious. I'm so nervous.

I don't want to kill me or whatever, which I think is people connecting with us and people reaching out. They have heard us say it. They're going to just say it too because they're admitting it. But there's also that thing of just, it's just a safety precaution. Nobody cares. Nobody thinks you're weird. You give that number and then you just have a little thing in place because I think it's

a smart thing to do. It's just taking, it's being proactive for yourself because yeah, you're going to go on a date. You're going to go to a person, none of the other alarm bells are going off. Right. It doesn't mean you shouldn't, that's a person you shouldn't go on a date with because it's just being precautious. But yeah, but also do that thing that might feel weird, but you can just do it for with

a friend. You don't have to do it to every person you know. Then you're being like neurotic. Yeah. But you put a little safety measure out there, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Ready? Except the ride. So that's how he, one of the, one of the main ways he got caught that led to all the other evidence against him. And in August 1970, John Norman Collins was found guilty of first-degree murder of Karen, his last victim. And he was sentenced to serve a life imprisonment with hard labor and solitary confinement. He never admitted his guilt in either the murder of Karen or any of the other murders

linked to the Michigan murder he is suspected of committing. So they only tried him for that one crime, for the one murder that they have a ton of evidence on and eyewitness evidence. And then he was never going to get out so they didn't try him for the other murders, which has to be hard when you're the family of those other victims. And how many other people were there? Wow. Here's, okay.

So here's the rest of the story. Oh shit. I mean, up until 2002, they figured he had like seven murders in the area. But the case of Jane Mixer was considered solved by the fact that John Norman Collins had did it until 2002 when Michigan state detectives noticed that a lot of the details of her murder didn't match up with Collins crime. So they took a look at the case again and they took three drops of sweat that had been on Jane Mixer's pantyhose and a single drop of blood that had been on her hand to be tested

for DNA. All right. The DNA didn't match John Norman Collins, the co-it killer, but it did match 62 year old Gary Learman, who was a former nurse from Southwestern Michigan, who was a drug salesman in Michigan at the time of the murders in the area. It was thought that Learman was the person who had responded to Jane's note on the college rideshare bulletin asking for a lift home because somehow a dorm room book, a phone book in the dorm rooms read the words, quote, Mixer and Muskegon, which is where she was

going and were linked to his handwriting, but that was in 2002 that they found those or that they linked those. All right. Anyways, so that they had the evidence, but they just hadn't kind of put anything together. Yeah. Just sitting somewhere. Yes. And then when his house was searched, where he had lived with his wife of 27 years, two

Polaroid pictures of a 16 year old foreign exchange student who had lived with him and his wife were found. The girl was drugged unconscious, lying on his bed with her clothing pulled back to show her junk. And it was similar to the pose that Jane had been left in, in the cemetery. Whoa. So the sweat stains linked to Learman, not the serial killer, but the drop of blood found on her hand was linked through DNA to someone else.

It was a Detroit man who was at the time of the DNA match serving life in prison for murder. The problem was, ready for this, that John Ruelis, whose DNA matched the blood drop, was four years old at the time of the murder, right? So the defense argued that the state police lab had contaminated the samples when both men's DNA were tested at the lab within a day of each other. Learman's had been tested separately. He had a recent arrest for forging prescription meds from where he worked as a nurse. And Ruelis was for murder, but the cross-contamination made the DNA match to Learman.

It should have made it, in the court case, just no one void. Because if you find someone else's DNA on this person, there's no way that person could have committed the crime. Then the rest of the DNA should be thrown out as evidence, right? What? Is that, are you saying that's the law or you're just saying that's like logic? That's logic to me. We can get to that.

It didn't get thrown out. The prosecution argued that Ruelis, who was four years old at the time, and a chronic nose bleeder, must have been at the crime scene and somehow got a drop of blood on your face that you're making is correct, is what I feel too. Yeah. A four-year-old with a bloody nose wandered over to a dead body. They didn't argue that there was a mistake in the crime lab, but the other DNA was legitimate and here's why, they said that there was a four-year-old boy in the cemetery and had

somehow gotten his blood on her. That in and of itself is the creepiest thing we've talked about this whole episode. The idea of a four-year-old with a bloody nose walking through a cemetery and stumbling upon a dead body. And it's absurd, but he was convicted. Who was? Lieberman was convicted of the murder of Jane Mixer based on the DNA evidence and these other little basic things.

According to the book Inside the Cell, The Dark Side of forensic DNA by Erin Murphy, which we all need to read immediately, I'm fucking buying. The lab analyst admitted that they routinely processed samples from different cases at the same time, as well as one of the negative controls processed in this case at the time that the pantyhose sample that was processed had become contaminated, like not even connected to all of this, but the analyst had tried to hide that fact. In addition, Royals DNA wasn't even processed at that lab. It was sent out for testing in a different location, but they still were able to cross-contaminate

at the lab where it had originated. That's some fucked up shit. So, after minutes of deliberation, Lieberman was convicted of first degree murder and got life in prison. He- Minutes of deliberation? Mm-hmm. Jesus.

I know. All right. So, I kind of wrote these things of like, here's what's hard to argue with Lieberman being guilty is that all of the crimes that we're talking, including Mixers, had to do with ride somewhere, which was the MO of the co-ed killer. They all had something tied around their necks, some of which didn't belong to the murder victim, including Janes. The first few were menstruating, which is fucking insane.

Bizarre. They were all left in locations where they would eventually be found, kind of on purpose. They all were connected to the university, which, I mean, if you live in Ann Arbor, that's kind of hard not to. Yeah, it's a university town. A lot of them were strangled, and the fifth known victim was shot in the head as well, so it wasn't totally against his MO. But at the same time, the majority of those murders he was never tried and convicted for,

so it's not like we can say that he did them definitively. Right. But according to Lieberman's roommate in college, Lieberman owned and liked to shoot a.22 caliber, and he was obsessed with serial murders. Ooh. So, it's kind of this... It reminds me of making a murderer where it's like, I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but he shouldn't have been prosecuted based on these pieces of evidence.

Yeah, that's right. And that's really the only thing you have at the end of the day, because everything else is bias and circumstance and kind of judgment. Yeah. And it was 2002 at the height of CSI being a big thing, and everyone thinking DNI. It was like the And I'll Be All, and not realizing that so much of it, like eyewitness testimony was flawed because it was, because human error. And people not admitting, like, covering up human errors, like, good God.

Yeah. So, that's... That's crazy. Yeah. So, you believe that Lieberman should not be in jail. Do you think that that last death, the woman that was found on the graveyard, is a co-ed killer and victim? I don't think... I can't say that definitively. I think there should have been more evidence to try... I feel like now in 2016, we should

go back and look and find whatever other evidence we can find. And DNA tests, those other victims that we are attributing to the co-ed killer kind of cross-reference them with Jane Mixer and see what really happened. But I don't... I can't say definitively that he should be let out. I just think in the same way Stephen A. Rui was like, this should get a new trial. And serial Anand Syed should be... I don't listen to that one. You can't convict someone, especially when they have shoddy defense based on these basic things that in the future, we're going to laugh at, as like...

I know. And the future could be like four years from now. Right. I mean, 2002 seems not that long ago. It's so huge. It's a huge difference when it comes to scientific evidence and all this. Now where do you think the bloody four-year-old plays into this? I mean, that's the most... That's the only reason I'm talking about this murder is because

that is so fucking insane and so clearly human error of cross-contamination in that lab. I can't believe the trial went forward after that was found out. That lawyer, when he found that out, that that's what that blood spatter was, must have been so stoked. The defense? I don't know. Whoever found that, I was just like, this is... I think the defense... The big reveal of like, is this blood?

Well, it was four-year-old. The defense should have been stoked that they found a four-year-old's blood whose DNA had been tested in the same lab a day before, but for some reason, he didn't pursue that enough in the trial to convince the jury that that was fucking insane. Because at the time, like you're saying, it's like DNA is a lock. Yeah. I mean, those prosecutors were good. I'm sure.

Well, and also, you get somebody, it's like... People want a thing like that. People want that story finished. They want a period. They want it closed up and they want somebody to pay. That's a hard position. We felt that same way. Yeah. Or it's just like, erase what's happening or somebody gets some justice.

This is such a fraudulent term. So this week, I'm going back to my tried and true, which is I'm going to retell you one of my favorite episodes of I Survived. Well, I've never seen a show, so please do. And this one I love because this plays on if you have some home alone as a young lady fears, this is going to cause some problems. So spoiler alert, trigger alert, scary, scary alert. Oh, no.

It has all these pieces. And the first time I saw this on I Survived, I was like gripping the couch. I was so freaked out. So essentially, it goes a little something like this. It's April 15th, 1995, and a young, bright, beautiful, successful 25-year-old young lawyer named Jennifer Morey goes out and has a drink with her friends after work one night. Big mistake. Her fault.

She's at the local ale house. All her friends are there. She doesn't want to go at first. They convince her to stay, then she ends up having a great time, and she stays until midnight. Then her friend drives her home, and she lives in an apartment complex called Bayou Park in Houston. And the reason that she picked this apartment complex to move into was because it was all

about security. And it had not just like the apartment security guards, they actually hired Pinkerton security guards to work at this place. They go back in time. That's still a thing. No, they've been around. That's how long they've been around. It's still like a major company.

Holy shit. And that name means a lot to people in security. So that's why she picked that apartment building to live in. So she goes home at midnight, goes in, let's say she washed her face, which is what you should do before you go to bed, ladies. So she goes in, gets ready for bed, goes to bed, turns out all the lights. Wakes up at 4 a.m., there's someone on top of her. No.

Yeah, get ready for this. No. It's going to be this the whole time. Scared. So there's someone straddling her, and she can feel something on her neck. And she realizes that someone no is not. She realizes someone's broken into her apartment and they're attempting to rape her. She can't figure out if she's dreaming at first.

It's that horrible in-between feeling when she becomes fully awake and she realizes someone straddling her, they've got a knife to her throat and they're going to rape her. She just starts fighting. Good for her. So she does everything she can. She fights this guy, she grabs the knife, it's all the stuff, all the crazy shit. And she's fighting him so hard that he cuts her from the cheekbone to the middle of her neck and he slices her neck open.

So she keeps on fighting, but suddenly it gets very slippery and there's blood everywhere. And finally she starts losing blood and the fight goes out of her. He takes her by the hair and he pulls her out of the bed, across the room, throws her into the bathroom and says, you stand here and you do not move and he slams the door. And so she throws her back up against the door in the bathroom. She grabs a washcloth and she puts it up against her wound, pressure, constant pressure when you have a wound like that. She throws her feet up against the wall and she's jammed herself there so he can't come

back in. And then she sits there and waits and listens and she hears him zip his pants up and then she wait and then she hears the door close and then she waits a little bit longer to make sure and then she goes to open the door and she can't open the door because there's so much blood on her hands that she cannot get a grip on the door pulling at it and pulling at it. And then she actually says in the story, she actually started laughing because she was like, Oh, this is how I'm going to die.

She's one of us. I get stuck. I get stuck in the bathroom and that's how I can't get help. So finally she gets out. She yanks that are open. She gets out. She fumbles to throw on the hallway light. The lights are dead.

She crawls. She gets to the phone. Phone's dead. No, no, no, no. So then she finds her cell phone. It's live. She brings it back into the bathroom and she calls 911. So that night a man named Richard Everett was working was the dispatcher.

He had just gotten onto his shift. Oh my God. They're all heroes. His night shift. So this is 4 a.m. when this started. So, so I guess he was starting a very early morning shift, maybe in the middle of the night. I don't know.

So she explains to him what's happened and he just starts telling her, you're going to be fine. Just try to stay calm. Don't talk that much. We just keep it the cops and the ambulance are on their way right now. They're going to be there really soon. You know, we could listen to this right now and want to be fine. There's no fucking way I would ever listen to it.

And she's saying, I'm bleeding so much. You please make sure they hurry or whatever. And he's like, they're they're coming there as fast as they can. Just hold that washcloth. You're going to be okay. Oh my God. And so after like 10 minutes, he's just talking her down and she's actually starting to calm down and she's feeling okay.

There's a knock at the door. No, no, no. So she's like, there's someone's knocking at the door and he's like, who is it? And she goes, well, hold it. So she yells from the bathroom. Who is it? And he says, this is Brian Gibson, the security guard that's on duty tonight. No, I just got attacked by a guy who jumped off your balcony.

Are you okay? Is that true? Is it true? And she doesn't know. So she's like, he goes, are you okay? You should let me in. And she goes, I'm okay. I'm talking to 911 right now.

And the dispatcher on 911 goes, wait, what's going on? And she goes, no, it's okay. It's the security guard. He wants me to let him in. And Richard Everett, for no reason, except for gut goes, do not let him in the door. And she goes, no, it's Pinkerton security. That's the whole apartment, like that's the whole setup here. And he goes, he said, here's the thing.

We haven't notified security at your apartment complex yet. So unless they have a police scanner. Yeah. But if you saw someone jumping off that, it doesn't matter. What is he going to do? We don't know about that story. But he goes, we just don't know what that is. So just don't let him in.

So she's like, I'm not going to let you in right now. And the guy's like, I swear it's okay. Here's my badge. He's like, I just need to help you. Are you bleeding? There's blood out here. I want to make sure that you're okay. And she's like, I'm fine.

The cops are on their way. And he's like, I know, I can hear the alarms. You know, I know CPR. I can help you, whatever. And he goes, I'm sorry. I just, the dispatcher says to Jennifer, I just don't think you should let him in. And she's like, okay, I'm really scared though. I'm starting to lose blood.

I'm getting lightheaded. I'm going to have a kuchi twinge. This is so exciting. Like what if I, what if I pass out and I'm in here and the door's locked? They kick it down. And so he's just, he just keeps talking to her and he's like, just listen to the sound of my voice. I'm watching the cops drive up the street.

They are three minutes away. You just have to hang on for three more minutes. And meanwhile the guy's like, Jennifer, can you talk to me? Are you okay? You know, can you just let me in? And so he wouldn't, if he was supposed to be there, he wouldn't be so insistent. He would, you know what I mean, like, well, but it's a woman who's bleeding and there's blood.

It's like, clearly there's a scenario. Now, if you were a security guard and you knew a woman had just gotten attacked with a knife and she's in there bleeding out and freaking out and not letting anybody help her, you might kick the door. Yeah. So, but Richard's like, I don't know. So just don't do it. Well, then the knocking starts getting harder.

He's like, you need to let me in here. And she, then she's starting to freak out because now she doesn't trust anybody. She has no idea what to do. But then suddenly she hears the sirens in the background. So she knows the plate and he's like, do you hear the sirens? They are, they're coming up the driveway road. She's like, yes. And he goes, so the ambulance is there.

Like you are going to live. You're fine. So just keep that door shut and you will be fine. Well, the knocking stopped. Oh my God. Oh my God. It's totally silent outside of the door. So now she's more scared because she's like, what the fuck is it?

And the cops pull up to this apartment complex, this security guard, Brian Gibson, meets them out there and he is a mess. He is bleeding from his right hand, there's blood on his face. There's blood on his uniform. And he tells the police his story that he walked up, he saw a guy, he jumped down from her second story balcony and attacked him. They got into this fight and the guy ran off into the woods, like into, into a field over on the side and he didn't see where he went.

And then he went up to check on the lady who will not let him in. Who's freaking out. All right. So the cops are like, all right, stay here. Sounds good. They start to check everything out. There's no trail into the grasses do you know it's six a.m. Yep.

No, not nothing. So they're like, get that guy and put him in a room over there. Yeah. They go up to Jennifer's apartment. But the ambulance has already taken her away. Okay. She's going to live. Oh my God.

Okay. Because the show was called I Survived. She told the story herself with a big old scar on her neck. She's gorgeous. This woman is like gorgeous and a lawyer. So she's the best. She's killing it. Yeah.

The cops go into her apartment. There's blood everywhere. There's also a Pinkerton hat and there's men's underwear on the ground and a knife. So they pick up all the shit and they go back down to Brian Gibson, the Pinkerton security guard that works there. Yeah. How was that in there? And they say, can you take your shirt off, please?

And he's like, no, I, no, it's fine. I was actually the one that was attacked there, like take your shirt off. There's claw marks all over his body. Oh my God. He's not wearing underwear. Nope. He has shaved his pubic hair. No pubic hair.

Meaning no hair left behind. That's exactly right. And he doesn't have a hat because he was the person, the security guard at the apartment building where she lived. Did he have keys to everywhere? Was, well, he didn't have a, oh yeah, he must have had keys to get into her house. Master key. Yeah.

Or some key, or he could have like, I mean, he had total access to her. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Shit. That was the most upsetting thing that I read. Sorry. No, no, no. It's, he was calling her by her first name when he was talking to her before he, when

he was first on her, um, which I think is one of the, the other reasons she got so freaked out and fought so hard is because it's like, what the fuck is going on? Guess how much I'm sleeping tonight? Zero. Yeah. But she survived. It turns out. Yeah.

So, um, they arrest him, they, uh, he gets 20 years for attempted murder. Man, what the fuck. And he's on parole now. What? No, I'm in a fucking. In Texas. Jump off my second story balcony. He's on parole in Texas.

When is attempted murder going to be treated like what it was intended to be? Like murder, you mean? Murder. That is so troubling to me that it's like, well, you didn't get away with it. So you're not gonna. Simply because she lived. Right. Simply because she fought.

So you, you don't, you don't deserve the punishment of what you were intending to fucking do. Well, and also the cops are positive that if she had let him in when he came back the next time to quote unquote check on her, he would have killed her and picked up all his shit he left behind. Totally. Totally. There's, that is absolutely there.

The cops are positive. That's the reason. I remember that got the, uh, the, I don't want dispatcher, did he get Richard Everett, all of the ribbons and whatnot. They're still friends to this day. He went to her wedding. Yeah. Oh my God.

Yeah. They're, they're close friends. I'm going to cry. Yeah. And she talks about him when in her episode of I survived, she, the way she talks about him is like one of the sweetest things you've ever seen. I can't deal with that. Is he in the worst moment of her life?

Like saved her life essentially in that way that like beautiful things happen to hideous fucking things. And she went on to become the trauma support, sir, the director of trauma support services of North Texas gorgeous. And she, I read a thing. She went around, I mean, it was 2015, I think when the article, what the article is from 2013 or 2015, she was going around speaking at schools and telling people horrible things happen in life, but it's all about what you're prepared, how you're prepared for them.

And basically she gave this talk that was kind of like the stuff that we talk about, which is like running scenarios and thinking about these things can actually help you not panic and not completely lose it. When something really upsetting happens, because you've kind of run a scenario, you know where your cell phone is, you have things plant, you know, where flashlights are, like you have things planned out a little bit. So you at least can put a plan together. It's a good way to like, to make sense of your anxiety and that like, well, maybe someday

this anxiety or this thing that I mean, thinking about these awful things happening is going to make me better in a, in a situation where I need to not fucking panic because I've already run the scenario through my head. Yeah, and also it can take away from that, like you don't need to beat yourself up for thinking about it. Yeah. You don't need to tell yourself, you're crazy for thinking about it, you're smart for thinking about it and you're empowered for thinking about it and you, you're taking action.

It's not, you know, you don't have to live in it and shut the door. You go out in your life knowing that you are armed with information and having an awareness and that security that you, you know, you've done as much as you can with your anxiety to prepare yourself, but you're not letting it take over your life and get in the way like you're not, you're not going to never leave the house again because you're aware of all these fucking terrible things that happen. Well, and also it's like, this isn't a story about how all security guards are evil. Right.

Because a lot of them do just as good shit as Richard Everett the 911 dispatcher did. A lot of them have, you know, good, that good intentions of I took this job because I want to help people for this exact reason, but you take it on a case by case basis. So if you meet a person, you get the weird feeling in your gut. Absolutely trust yourself and just get out of there. You know what I mean? You don't, that's, that's what all that's about. It's like to the individual.

Arm yourself with knowledge, but don't let that overwhelm you. Yeah. And also take a break every once in a while. And like the other day, some girls like I had a, she tweeted, I had a hard day at work. I'm going to drink wine and watch I survived and I wrote back, drink wine and watch Bob's burger. I had a bad day. Relax.

That's a great suggestion. Take a break. Watch fucking Rosemary and Time where it's a lot of nice flowers, a lot of great accents. It's chill. You can don't live in it. Like, like visit and then, and then go somewhere else for a while. That's a beautiful take a, have a glass of wine and watch Bob's burgers is like Bob's burgers is the, oh my God, it makes me so happy.

It is the most perfect show. It's positive. It's a family that loves each other. That's funny that, that isn't perfect at all. And it's hilarious. Relatable. My six year old nephew is obsessed with Bob's burgers. The songs they write for that show are the best comedy songs.

There are. Yeah. It is my favorite. How they come up with those every episode goes my mind. Whoever their musical. I should look it up right now. Whoever their musical director is fucking straight up 1000 props. Yeah.

And that's, and that's Karen, that was, you tell those stories so well. It's almost like I'm not cheating. Yeah. When I am. Are you? I wouldn't know. This is a podcast where some of the time I just retell TV shows, but you say that, but you tell them, you don't read them.

That's true because I've seen that one, Jennifer's I've watched probably five times because she tells it, it's, it's so compelling. She's, she's so real. She's upset at certain points. She's very angry and like very self-righteous at certain points. It's a fucking awesome thing to behold. She's a great survivor. You tell it to me like we're at a party together, whereas like if I did mine, it would be like

so many missing elements of it because I can't remember half the shit that like I have to kind of like go off my own notes, which I don't copy and paste, but you know, I'd lead with them. Right. Yeah. But I mean, I'm just copying her, her story. Wow. I mean, that's, that's stories though.

You just, yeah, that's how I learned to sell stories is just both of my parents. That's all they did. Yeah. It's like we're sitting by a fire to caveman to caveman sitting by a fire, tales as old as time. And the only thing we have to eat are cookies. Oh. Um, did someone come running from, I didn't say it right.

Oh, he's just, he's job of the hut right now. Guys, thanks for listening. Do all the things that you're supposed to do and support. We love you. We couldn't be doing better. And it's because you guys all listen and support and do all the things we always ask you to do. We couldn't thank you more for that.

The best listener. Like you guys are the best. We are so lucky. We are so fucking lucky. Just make sure that you stay sexy and you don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? You want cookie? Cookie.

All right. He's getting a cookie. Bye. Bye.