My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 4 - Go Forth and Murder

Episode Date: February 12, 2016

The girls touch on Making A Murderer theories before delving into child killer Cropsey and the murder of Michele Wallace. Plus listener hometown stories including Adam Walsh, the girl in the box, and the Petaluma Tickler.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Welcome to my favorite murder. Welcome. That's Karen. I'm Georgia. That's Georgia. Thanks for listening. Two girls, one murder. Obsessed with true crime, both of us. With bad things. Bad things happening. We love it. We want to know all about it, so it'll never happen to us. And it turns out so do a lot of other people. Yeah. Because lots of people have been telling us about how much they like it. We got a lot of emails from the last episodes of people telling

us their town murders, which I love and is like so exciting and we haven't read them yet because we want to surprise each other with it. Yes. But so many, I would look at the first line in Gmail and it would say like these little things because I'm fucking curious and I want to know what they say. But so many people like I didn't, I'm so, I was always so embarrassed that this is a thing that I was into, which I'm like, what? Try to talk to everyone about it. I know. Well, that's what, that's how I felt when I was younger. Yeah. Like that I was like crazy. Or people would think that you wanted to murder people. Right, exactly. And then the second I started doing stand up and every other stand of comic knew every serial killer backwards and forwards. I was like, oh,

I get it. I wonder what it is. Anxious people. Yeah. Probably. And it's so fascinating. Yeah. It's like the worst of humanity. Yeah, I wonder if it's a little OCDish too, where like, I need to know everything about this now. Yeah. And everything that's related to it. Yeah, please help, help me prepare for when I run face to face into John Wayne Gacy. Because now you and I are gonna be able to fucking beat up any serial killer murderer. I found a new podcast, not new, it's really old, but they talk about murderers and stuff a lot. And maybe I shouldn't plug it because then it's like, go ahead. No, it's really good. It's called, have you thinking sideways podcast? No, I've never heard of that. It's like a girl and two dudes and they just talk about like, weird shit. And a lot

of it is murder. It's great. I like it. I started listening to Joe DeRosa and Pat Walsh's podcast. I'll see you in hell, which because I had to drive home from San Francisco yesterday at six hours. So I listened to many and it was really hilarious. I recommend that. What are they talking about? They talk about they put on a horror movie, but then they just talk over it. You can't hear it or anything. They just tell you what movie it is and they talk about it incidentally as they have conversations. It sounds like it shouldn't work, but I bet it's fucking great. Well, it's so great because they both have these insane comprehensive encyclopedic knowledge of movies. So any tangent they go on, they know exactly who and what they're talking about, which of course was a real sore

spot for me. As I anytime I bring up a subject, I'm like, you know that thing that happened that time. Hold on, hold on. Well, you need like the right person to fill in the blanks and you're just like, Oh, this is why I'm friends with you is because you use like, I was just rambling and you were and you filled it in and that's the best. That's what we do. Right. It's totally what we do. I was going to make you say the last part didn't work. I guess we're not good at that part. I'm really excited audience because Georgia got new coaches. And when I was listening to our first episode, there's a sound in the background at the entire time. It's me squeaking on my couch, like just constantly moving around. It was a leather couch. It was making me laugh so hard.

Oh, God, I didn't do it. So that's it. But no, it's all cleared up. I got these for podcasting. So I don't make background noise and podcasting perfect podcasting couch can write them off. Wait, not that I make any money on podcasting. This is not a money making venture. Everyone don't quit your job. You never know. You don't ever know. You don't ever know. You don't ever know. Like getting murdered. Yep. Should we jump into it? Or should we talk about making a murderer? Have you been reading all the making a murderer theories? Well, the natural backlash has happened. Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's guilty now. Are you? I'm pretty sure he's guilty now. Are you really? Yes. I think that's very adult of you to be able to change positions. Yeah, really. It doesn't feel

good. Well, look, here's the thing. And this is the this is the one thing I agree with. In general, I think he's innocent. And I think very bad things are happening in that state. I think people, there's a natural backlash when you get kind of spoon fed and ants, not an answer, but like a villain. And like, here's, here's really what happened. And they're leaving just enough pieces free so you can put the mystery together yourself. And then everyone thinks they got it and they're on it. Well, there's always the hot take of like, no, actually, right? Because everyone wants to know details. Well, that's the problem is the people who are looking up details are like, oh, this documentary was really one sided and you guys left so much shit out, which makes me

suspect of you and suspect of your your conclusion. Yeah, but none of the details that I read and I admittedly only read maybe two articles skimmed half skimmed while I was doing two other things. But the the piece of evidence that they brought up didn't sway me toward him. They didn't. It was like that thing of like, I don't think it's proof. The things that they mentioned that was evidence that got left out was not stronger evidence than like bones in the fire pit or do you know what I think? I think that someone on that property, some ones did it. But maybe it wasn't Steve Avery. And I think Brendan Dassey knows or participated in it. Really? Yeah, because if you go back, which I've done now and read his whole 10 hours

of transcript, their shit, they're not feeding him that are two. It's too much of a narrative. But he said it's from kiss the girls. Remember that part in the end? In the court room, he's like, it's from kiss the girls. Yeah, I know he might have made that up. There's some shit that it's like this really this is a narrative you're telling and you're too stupid to like make up a this story that sounds this this much of a narrative. Right? It's just that no zero blood anywhere. I know. Which is why I'm like, it probably happened somewhere else and it wasn't maybe it wasn't Steve. I just changed it. It's been three minutes. I have already changed my mind. The family. Well, no, I mean, I think that's good. You have to continually reproach it.

Like the district circuit court judge that you are. And now we stay neutral. Did you know I went to school? Yeah. Um, but I I don't know. I I'm much more interested in like you can tell that there's a very real systemic problem. That's not even I'm not talking about that. Yeah, that's shit. Those people do whatever they want. You can tell that that that district attorney just does whatever he wants. I think the key was planted. I think that probably maybe the blood was planted. I don't think that he got a fair trial and everything. It's interesting. One of the things that I kind of led me down a rabbit hole is people are saying that the key that they found that's a spare key. That's like maybe the brother. They're like, we know it's Stephen Avery

and he gave him a spare key. The brother gave her spare key to him to like plant. And there's like a photo that they keep showing of her standing by her car with her camera and stuff. And you can see her big old key chain for holding it in there. It's like so that her purse wasn't found. Nothing was found. So and then the ex-boyfriend, there's the picture where he has a scratch on his hand. Right. Like like a human fingernail scratch that's really long. Yeah. I don't think they had anything to do with it. I think they probably found the car. But I bet they like trespassed onto the CV. This is all based on shit that I've read on Reddit too, by the way. I'm not taking any fucking credit for that. Found the car because they knew that she was going there, called the cops

up and it was an illegal fucking fine. And so they made that the woman who's in the search party go find the car. Right. Does it make any nobody anyone is listening who hasn't watched it. Everyone's watched it. Everyone's watched it in America and decided it's going to be interesting to see if anything actually really what happened with that. Were you reading these papers off of that anonymous like file dump? No. You know anonymous went in and like released all those files. I'm interested. I don't know. But then there was a thing today that that was it today or yesterday that was there's a serial killer that they think is good for her murder. He's in the background of a fuck in the video. Yeah. And he was there's a serial killer. He was known for going

to the trials of the people he would frame. Yeah. But he's a big old fat unhealthy dude. And sorry. What's the problem? Well, how could he like a young straight woman? Although I guess if you're like help me I need help and you just push her in the van. It's a classic buffalo bill scenario. Yeah. Totally. Totally. For a second. What do you say for a big old fat girl, big old fat girl. She a big old fat person. Get me out of here you bitch. Me and my sister just watched this science of lambs. And I was saying Clarice Starling's lines two seconds before she would say them. And this is how I know my sister loves me. She never told me to shut up because we've been watching TV together for so long. She's just used to my insanity, but I couldn't not do it.

That's nice. I do that. And then I apologize the whole time. But I still keep doing it. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But I like just keep fucking doing it. Tell me his name, Dr. Lecter. How do you not do that when you know that that's what she's going to say and you can do it just like her. That's the best movie. It's really. Did your niece watch it with you? No, no. Oh god, I was like, she's gonna have a nightmare for the rest of her life. She's only nine. No. I think I had seen it by that. I think I'm ruined. I think you saw it when you were nine. I think I saw when I was really young. I don't know, whatever. I read the book in college and actually, I was home alone all day and began to think I was Clarice Starling as I was reading the book. I was so

into it. I went insane. You probably were. I kind of was. Did I already tell you that story? No. Well, it's true. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths, and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent, and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at

Quantico, answer some killer trivia, and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey, Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music exclusive podcast, Killer Psyche Daily, in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. Hey, Karen. Hey. What's your favorite murder? Well, I thought it would be good that I would do a little damage control since on our last episode. I was so sloppy and inaccurate talking about Cropsy. That was one of the ones we're literally guessing what the name of the thing was I was trying to talk about. Let everyone know that this is not an official report of anything that's happened. We're not doctors. You're looking in the wrong place. We're not therapists. But the story has all of the elements of murder,

you know, creeper, urban legend story, everything I love. It's got a mental hospital. It's got the woods. It's almost like that's too much if someone had written this thing. Yeah, it's like you can pick one or the other, but you can't have a mental hospital in the woods. It's crazy. I haven't seen it in so long. Tell me everything. Okay, so this is the story of Cropsy was an urban legend on Staten Island and it was there was a hospital named Willow Brook and it is a hospital for mentally challenged children and they built it in say like the early 40s and it is on Staten Island in the set in the woods and it was a state institution and it was built for 4000 patients, but by 1965 it had 6000 children in it. It was built for how many? 4000. So it was way over

capacity and and this was back when people used to dump their children. So and it didn't matter if they had Down syndrome or if they were very, very, you know, there was something really wrong with them. They have like cerebral palsy and they would just be like tons of cerebral palsy kids were completely intelligent and 100% there just dumped. And so what ended up happening was of course, because it's like a state funded hospital. So it's over. It's over overflowing with patients. What's the order I'm looking for? Understaffed, overpopulated and so they end up a reporter finally goes in when we talked about it on the last episode. I said something really grandiose like Robert Kennedy shut it down, but herald a Rivera, herald a Rivera. So but Kennedy saw it in

the 70 68 and said this is a snake pit. This is a disgrace. And they started doing all these reviews. And what had happened was all these children being in this close proximity. They found out it was like they were just in rooms naked, being hosed down horrible. There's no lighting is crazy. And a bunch of them started getting hepatitis. So then they had medical studies where they were testing hepatitis on these children might as well do some fucking scientific testing. Exactly. And they were basically giving them all hepatitis, they were getting it. It was so anyway, with all of this, these social workers finally went in there, saw the conditions, they got a reporter in there. And that's what led to a woman started writing

exposés for like a local newspaper. And then that's how heraldo got on the scene. He worked as an investigative reporter for W ABC in New York. So he went there and they did, they did an exposé story that ended up winning a Peabody because it was so and they just kind of like they went when there were doctors were gone and stuff, right? Or the doctors let them in that. So I don't know about the heraldo part. I don't know how he got in. But but the we talked about this before, when you see the videotape and there is a documentary called Willow Brook, like it's something like the great shame or something like something like that. It's it gets mentioned a lot in all the research. But he basically went in and like the only lighting was the light on the

camera. It looks like it looks like like a American horror story, like asylum, like totally just exactly what you think it's supposed to be like it would be like 30 kids in a room naked sitting on the cement floor rocking back and forth. And then they talked to one guy and he was like one of the patients and he's like, I have cerebral palsy and I am completely mentally functioning on 100%. Yeah. And they yeah. And I'm trapped in here. Nightmare. Okay. So right. So that alone is a nightmare. That's Willow Brook nightmare. Heraldo being in it isn't great. But it ends up they had it with all that in the expose, they passed legislation. But you know, about like the rights of civil civil rights thing for patients and stuff, all this stuff.

Well, so then the urban legend pops up. So they ended up closing it in 1987. But they basically closed it in 72 or four. After this expose, they came out, they shipped all of the patients to all different hospitals around and there was only like 200 patients left. So it was basically empty. And that's when the urban legends started, where it was, there's a mental patient that's still on the grounds, because there's a tunnel system underneath the hospital. And he's living in the tunnels at night, he comes out and steals children. That was the big thing on statin island in the 80s. Oh my God, how fucking terrifying to live in statin island. Crazy, right? And so the high school kids, the big thing was go through the woods, get to the mental

hospital and like, touch the wall of it or whatever. Absolutely not. And cross Cropsey's out there with you. So and there's a great documentary called Cropsey, where they go into all this, they have all the information that you need if you're fascinated, because it's really good and fascinating. So I just imagine like parents in the 80s, being like, you'd be good or we're a cropped, he's going to come get you in statin island. You're like, well, actually, that could happen. Actually, it's happening. My mom would say, you'd be good. I'm going to call the Indian reservation and have them come get you, which is like, so racist. My grandmother used to say, don't put like, if you were holding money, she'd say, don't put it, don't put it in your mouth. It could have

been in the Chinaman's ear. Like you're going to put money in your fucking mouth. Oh my God, racist. Racist in the just in like a chipper grandma way. Right. So anyway, so now, now we're going to introduce a new character in this, in this story. And it's a man named Andre Rand. And he was, he's described in one of the pages that I read as a mentally incompetent, convicted child sex offender. So he's got it all. Yeah. And he was a janitor at Willow Brook from 1966 six to 1960. I feel like anyone you're going to hire to be a janitor there, you have to be like, no, you're fired because why like, you're crazy clearly. Yes. Well, and you've got to think if these children were being housed like animals, like no, no better than animals, probably worse

in some ways, the staff that were there letting this happen and looking at it every day, not the greatest people you're going to want. Let's say they're not around. We can, we can, we can pretty I'm sure there's a couple of gems and they're like, I'm staying because they need me and I'm the only hope they have. But the majority probably, I mean, in life, there's probably one out of 100 people who even like that. Yeah. So you get, you're going to get people who are real good with throwing a bucket of water on a bunch of mentally ill children and walking out of the room. You've got, you get with that, Andre. Okay, great. You've got the job. So in the, so this guy gets the job in 66. Well, in 69, he, so he works there from 66 to 68. In 69, he attempts to rape a nine year

old girl. And just by chance, a cop car is, is driving by, he takes a nine year old girl into his car and took to an empty lot and takes off his clothes, her clothes are off a cop car drives by. Sometimes life works well, you know, I mean, yeah, go on. This is an upside. This is one upside and it's hideous story. He gets sentenced to four years. He only serves 10 months, you know, the the classic scenario. I hate everything. This is why we have to do this podcast is because our fucking penal system blows. We get because we got to talk about it. We get we're going to affect change. Oh, clearly, laying on these couch. I would have gotten 11 months if it was today, because of us. So he gets out. And then that would be 69 71. In 72, a nine year old girl named Alice

Freire, it disappears off Staten Island. Then in 1981, nine years later, a seven year old girl named Holly Ann Hughes goes missing. And the eyewitnesses saw her with Rand. No way. And she's never seen again. And then in 1983, this is this is a real highlight for me. He picks up 11 children from a YMCA in a school bus, takes them to White Castle, and then drives them to the Newark airport for five hours. And when he gets back, he gets arrested for kidnapping who the fuck is letting a guy who's been in prison for attempted rape, drive a fucking bus of school bus, the 80s. He rapes a nine year old tries to rape a nine year old and then goes ahead and get some job driving is the 80s needs to go to prison for fucking. So this was back before we realized

children were constantly in danger. So in 83, an 11 year old named to he's Jackson disappears, walking to the store. And this is 12 days after Rand is released for I thought he was buying cigarettes for his mom, like I bet that's what you know, yeah, that's the 80s. I think that's what all of it this is because Staten Island is not that big. And I think it's like run down to the store for mommy. And it's probably one of the girls lived in a motel. It's bad news anyway. Okay. So that was 11 days after he got out of prison for the kidnapping 12 days, 12 days, he does that. And that's the same year he did the oh, so he did the YMCA school bus trick, and then gets out of prison 12 days later, this kid goes missing a girl, it's a girl.

And then in 84, a 22 year old guy who was a really low IQ goes missing. And then in 87, a girl named Jennifer Schweiger goes missing and she has Down syndrome. And several eyewitnesses saw this guy, Andre Rand, leading her by the hand toward the woods. I mean, there's your poster for the horror movie. So they start searching for her. And after 35 days, they find her nude body in a shallow grave on the Willowbrook property. And then a couple feet, you know, several feet away. Andre Rand has a makeshift campsite. He's been living on the Willowbrook grounds. And the whole urban legend is true. And they eventually, they charge him with kidnapping and first degree murder, but they can't make the murder stick. They get him for

first degree kidnapping, and then they bring back. And then once he's in jail for that, he gets like 20 years. Then in 2004, they put him on trial for the Holly Hughes disappearance. And he's convicted of kidnapping. And he gets now he's set to get out in 2035 or something like that when he's 95. So he's in, he's in for good. They also linked him to the disappearance of Apple Atwell and the rape murder of Shin Lee, who are both Willowbrook aides. So he's a beast. And he's, and it's basically the most fascinating story of that it all was true. What a bummer to go to work and then you get killed. Like, don't go in the woods. Don't walk to the store by yourself. But you're like, I'm just going to work.

Just going to work, just trying to pay my rent. So that's, that's cropsie. That's a good murder. I mean, it's, what's good about is that it's the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. You know, that's, that's the stats on this show is like, what's the worst thing you've ever heard in your life? I mean, don't you want to, why hasn't anyone gone into the tunnels in that hospital and like dug around archeologically and tried to find Karen, a hundredth episode. Let's fucking do it. We get a school bus full of 11 children and drive them to Staten Island. Just pay Palace the money to get plane tickets to Staten Island and to not stay on Staten Island because fuck that. We're staying in Manhattan. We got to stay in Manhattan. We got to see Hamilton.

Yeah. We got to go to the, go to the shoe stores. Yeah. Then cropsie. Then cropsie. Yeah. Oh, brother. Yeah. That was mine. What's yours, Georgia? Well, well, what's interesting about both of ours is that the murderer in question, still alive in prison, still alive. How are these, isn't it weird that this person, it's like in your mind, they're like, Oh, they did these awful things that long ago. They're dead. Nope. No. They had dinner tonight. They watched some TV. They watched some TV. Yeah. They had a conversation with the guard. Perhaps they played some bones. Probably play bones out with people doing prison. I don't know what bones is. It's dominoes. Yeah. What do you

think he had for dinner? Something gross. Chicken nugget? Yeah. Yeah. Dinner. That's better than what I've had for dinner. And he's a monster. And he's a monster. He's a monster. Speaking of monsters. Okay. My favorite murder is that of Michelle Wallace. Michelle with 1L. And I remember seeing, I love cold cases. Like that's, I love when murders get solved, of course. Yeah. But cold cases are my like, passion and my dream. I'm passionate about getting away with it. Because it's just so curious. I'm just so curious. Yeah. But I also like that the answers never like satisfying. It's always like, that's just some fucking janitor asshole did this to all these people. That's such a bummer. I want to be like a monster or something. Okay. So, and I remember watching a cold case

of this a long time ago. And two things that stuck out to me. Okay. She's a 25 year old photographer. This is 1974. She lives in Chicago. She's like this free spirit photographer. And she travels the world and taking photos and taking odd jobs and stuff. And she goes to, in 1974, goes to Oregon, spends a couple days in the Rocky Mountains, just taking some photos. I think I've seen this, this one. Yeah. Is it a forensic files? I think there's a forensic files on it. She's leaving the Rocky Mountains and she does the classic 1970s. I want to get murdered move. Do you know what that is? Is it hitchhiking? It's fucking hitchhikers. She picks up hitchhikers. Oh, she picks them up.

She picks up two dudes. Oh, no. What? One girl alone picks up two dudes. What? The 70s and 80s. They're going to prison. Yeah. What did they look like? I wondered that she was like, this is fine. Yeah. I don't know. Was one really short or something? Short guys are strong. Don't pick up anyone. And they're mad. And they're angry. Yeah. So we're going to get a lot of hate mail for this. No, no, it's fine. I'm short. It's fine. So she drops one of them off at the bar, this one dude. And then of course, she is never seen again. Then the guy who she dropped off, a couple like finds out this girl's missing and he's like, wait a second, she dropped me off. And then the guy I was with who I barely knew said, I'm going to, can you take me to my car

actually? And the, and the guy was like, I didn't think he had a car. So I thought that was strange. So they start looking, his name is Roy. Sorry, the guy that got dropped off the bar is the one that says that. Yeah, he's like, okay, I didn't think Roy is his name had a car. Okay. And he's like, you know, why did you let her leave with him? Fuck, you know, like right there, you could have fucking fixed it. Anyway, Roy Mielson, me, Melonson, Melonson, should have looked that up before. Roy Mielson, he's a drifter and a convicted rapist. So but he got out after very short time. Sure. Why would you keep him in? Yeah, it's time now he knows to kill the person so they can't ID him. You know, it's like, that's how you do that. That's how you progress. Having a panic

attack. He's found with her driver's license, camping equipment, car keys and pond tickets for her camera. And this is one of my favorite parts of why it stuck with me. And I can't fucking find this online now. Some reasons not up there anymore. The they find the camera at the pawn shop, the lat they developed the film, it's all her photos in the Rocky Mountains. The very last photo is Roy sitting on a bed behind him laying down as a naked woman. And it's it's not her. So he has her count, you know, it's like, that's the proof. Yeah. She she's missing and you robbed her and you took a photo of yourself, you fucking idiot. And I can't find that photo. I know it was in the forensic files or whatever. I totally remember this because yeah, because it's so freaky. So

freaky. But in this guy never got caught. No, okay, here's my other favorite part about this. Okay, well, it's an awful story. Okay, five weeks later, Michelle's mom just kills herself because she can't even do it. Like my daughter didn't come back. She I know she's dead, kills herself. And then in 79. So what is that five, six years later, five years later? This is the other part that's really fucked up and stuck with me. They find just a scalp with two brown haired braids on it, like a scalp only. Oh, where did they some hiker found it in near where near where she had picked up the hitchhikers. So just a fucking scalp. I'm gonna keep saying because it's fucking off. Just picture you think it was like sitting on a log or yeah,

definitely hanging from a branch. Probably they showed it. There's a photo which there's there's hanging from a branch. Sorry. Well, you got to think like, he didn't. He definitely didn't scalp her probably. This is animal work. Oh, you think so? Well, I guess if it's that clean, maybe not. But I would think so. No, I don't. I mean, I have no idea. But my first guess is, doesn't it all decompose at the same time? Like why would the scalp still be there if nothing else is there? Well, and maybe an animal pulled it off like was chewing at the everyone is who's listening right now and freaking out at us and hates us so much. And this we've just lost half our listeners. Here's the thing though. It's like,

that's kind of part of what's interesting about serial killers is when they do things. It's those markers. Utilization. Yeah. They're not a lot of them. I don't think that's a normal like a, I don't know. What do you think? Well, sometimes it's like a calling card, right? Of like, Oh, that's the thing is he wants to keep their hair or remove their hair. I don't know whatever. It makes me think of that of like a scalping serial killer. There's wage. I've read way too much about cutting off nipples. I just can't read about cutting off nipples anymore. I know your face is telling is it as I'm just picturing it. The thought of like hurt really bad. It hurts to think about it. So the thought of someone doing it, you have to be just a complete

sociopath. Yeah. Clearly your psychopathic. Anyways, okay. Clearly have a problem with your mother. Sorry. That's fair. It's true. That's fair. Okay. They find the scalp, but that's, but, you know, it's 1979. And so they don't have a body. So they can't prosecute. So they put in a brown cardboard box, put it up on the shelf, right in a hot room. Yeah. But like, there's like, there's no body. So they can't prosecute, but it's like, well, I feel like nowadays you can prosecute without a body much more easily. Yeah. And then so 12 years goes by. Nobody. This woman, Kathy Young, who becomes like the sheriff in town or I'm sure I'm saying that incorrect. She's not. I'm sure she's much higher up. She hires this, this company called Necro Search, which I remember thinking at the time,

that's what I want to do. I want to work there for a living. Like I just want to, I want to like the name alone. Yeah. I just want to follow, I want to follow them like the Grateful Dead. I want to be the receptionist as Necro Search. I can be like, Necro Search can help you. What's your, what's your emergency? Skilling crossbones. But they like, they like, they have uncovered, what they, what they do is they find and they're really good at uncovering clandestine grave sites. It's like, you badass motherfuckers. How do they have like a, they have like a farm. They have a farm where they like bury pigs, dead pigs and kind of understand the soil changes and like what, you know, what doesn't, what doesn't look right out in the, in nature?

What is man made? What is placed there? These sorts of things. And like, what is the decomposition of this pile of soil or dirt or like, you know, these, these kinds of things, what has been dug up in the past 10 years even, that's different from the soil next to it. Do animals, scalp people and keep the braids for themselves? Exactly. Stuff like that. Well, here's what happened is they took her braids and did some forensic analysis on them and found the leaves of a tree in the, that was in a certain area of that, those mountains. So they went there, they spread out out on that area where the trees are day two, fucking find her bones, what was left of them. Wow. I know. These guys, they've uncovered over 200 and they've taken on over 235 cases.

I don't know how many they found, but man, these guys, these are the good guys. Necro search. I love that. I know. I bet we're at a party, we would corner these people and I bet they get kicked out of parties a lot though. Oh my God. Yeah. I would never leave a Necro searcher alone. No, can we get, can we have a request if anyone knows a Necro searcher to, I think they're in San Francisco to please have them be on the podcast. I just think that's insanely fascinating. It's almost like having X-ray vision, like you can look at a forest or a like, you know, a ditch and know what's wrong and what, you know, what's off. Absolutely. Well, the woman who found the bones was like, they were all,

they were all searching for two days. She goes off the trail to take a piss in the woods, which I think it shouldn't be allowed if you're looking for us. Hey, she's still human. Yeah. And she looks and there's a ray of light flashing on a gold tooth. She finds the skull. Oh, that's the, that's the Lord's work. Yeah. And it was, sorry, this is where my Christian part comes in. This is it. I know, not, not before she dies and she, when he, no, no, no, it doesn't belong there. Well, it's at the bottom of a ravine. So like someone straight toss person over, like didn't even, didn't even bury her. Just threw in, tossed her over. So they take Roy Mielenson to trial. He is found guilty in 93. So she gets killed in 74, found guilty in 93.

Um, since then, and I didn't know this until I started looking up to it, he's been convicted for another murder, which happened 50 days before Michelle's murder in Napa in 1974. Yeah. A woman who was stabbed to death at her bar, she owned, and they found a cigarette butt that had his DNA on it, put it through the fucking CODIS, the most amazing thing in the world, found his DNA match. Another woman in Louisiana who fucking, it's gruesome, which, so he's done it multiple times. Yeah. At least twice that they know of through DNA. Wow. But they're not, they're not taking the third one to trial because it's too expensive to do all these things for, which sucks for that family. Yes. You know, but they know it's him. Yeah. Now they know it's him, but he's

going to go to jail anyway. So their, their rationale is he's there. Right. Which is why Napa took them, took him to trial is because he's, he can be eligible for parole, which I think is fucking hilarious for Michelle's murder in like, not in like the next 10 years, eligible for parole. So they convicted him to make sure that if that ever happens, oh, that's good. He has to be extradited to California. Yeah. It's very strange the way the laws still work like that, where it's just kind of like, oh, when then we let him out again. Right. And then, but you know what, he was real good inside. So we let him out again. Yeah. We're like, well, at the trial, like one of this jurors sneezed wrong. So he, he's out. Yeah. And we don't have enough money to try him again. And

we think we're going to lose. And we'll probably won't warn anybody just to keep it interesting. The good thing about all of this is that hitchhiking pretty much doesn't exist anymore. Thank God. We've talked about this before. Like, I don't even understand like, I know it's like an innocent time and shit, but like, I don't think that's common sense any time in your life. No, any point in history. No, I mean, think of like, if you were at a party with your friends, friends, you probably wouldn't want to be in a car with any of those people. Yeah. And those are like cold. So imagine if it's just anybody driving down the street. Have you ever hitchhiked? Is that negative of me? No, no. You don't want to be at a party with your friends? No, I've never

hitchhiked. I've never done anything like that. I think I have when I was a kid, but like with a friend and I think the person like, it was like an Irvine where it's just like the safest place and all, but it was idiotic. And I think the person who picked us up like yelled at us. I did pick up two girls who were in junior high. We were driving home. We were driving up to Petaluma from LA, me and my ex, and we stopped at a gas station and there were two little girls that were, couldn't have been more than 14 years old sitting at the gas station. It was two in the morning and they were, they were trying to make phone calls. The whole time we were getting gas, I was watching them and they were trying to make phone calls and they were doing this stuff.

Two in the morning. And I was watching them and the guy that worked there wasn't, seemed a little creepy. And he was kind of like coming out and looking at them and going back in and people would pull in and I was just the whole time staring at them. And finally, when we went to leave, I was like drive over there and we pulled up and I was like, do you guys need a ride home? And they were like, yep. And immediately got in the car. And I was like, first of all, never get into a car with people. And then secondly, did you go to Lusat and grammar school? And they both went to my sister's grammar school and I got names and they kind of smelled, it was like, clearly they were from the bad side of town and they got like, they probably snuck out and then got stuck somewhere

and then ended up at this gas station out by the freeway where I was like, not walkable. No, it was, it was, it's like five miles away from any neighborhood. And it's all farmland and shit. Yeah. So we dropped them off and I, I was like, don't ever do this again. And they were like, and then ran in and they will. But where are they now? I wonder if they remember you? No, they both own that gas station. Because of my setting them on their way. Yeah. Correctly. Good job. Thank you. Well, I just want to take a second to brag about something good I did for the community. Do you mind? No, I love it. Thank you. What if they went home and killed their mom? Can I turn this into Obama real quick? They were the ones that were all along.

Yep. That's a good twist to rule. It is. That's right a book. They went home and killed their mom. Oh, I'm dead inside. I want to read one of our, so at the end of the show, we like to do your favorite or your town, no, your town murder. Yeah. So either we'll have a guest tell us a story, or we're asking you guys to send us your stories. Should we start at my favorite murder Gmail? I probably should. Sure. Let's do it. My favorite murder Gmail. And then there's also there's also a Facebook group. So you can start Facebook page. We call it Facebook page group page. I don't know what last time you just called it plain old Facebook page and it made me laugh really hard. We have Facebook page Facebook page called my favorite murder and

you can tell your story on the front page on the front like tell everyone your shit and like you guys should like bond over and stuff. I feel like I should also start a Twitter account. Maybe this is business that you guys want to hear about, but I should because it seems like that's also a good way for people. You're really good at that and it stresses me out to start from zero like from zero followers. I'm really good at starting Twitter. You're good at Twitter. Oh, thanks. It's my passion. Really that I started like a year ago because I hated it and I hate it now because I it's a it's a difficult exercise. Yeah. It's just it's can you handle putting things out there and wanting something in return and not getting it? No.

Well, or can you because you do it and then you get stuff. It's true. I do get stuff out of it. Okay. Yeah. Start one. Let's do that. Okay. Okay. By this by this point that people are listening, it's going to be up anyways. Okay. We made a whole file. Should we let's see. All right. I'm just going to I'm going to close my eyes and scroll and pick one. Great. One of it sucks. Then we'll delete it and start over. Okay. Okay. All right. This is from Todd Deck. Todd. You ready for this? Thanks, Todd. It starts the girl in the box. Hell yeah. Hello. Thank you both for sharing your love of true crime. Truth be told, I've always enjoyed the genre and never really got the opportunity to chat about it with people blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's

now time for my true crime story. I am a new public librarian in a rural town. Already sounds awesome. Dude. Thank you for your service. When I first started on the job, my first reference question was, where is the girl in the box? And my initial thought was what the fuck? After some amateur sleuthing, I quickly learned that this patron was asking for a book called Perfect Victim. It's a true crime story detailing the story of a young female hit. We fucking talked about this before on the podcast. This guy did not. Oh no, has it gone up yet? That one? Yeah. Well, we didn't. It wasn't one of our favorite murders. It was a sidebar story. Okay, so I'm not going to get mad at him. Okay. Well, maybe you don't know what he knows about it. Is he just

talking about the story itself or does he have some personal connection? I think it happened in a small town he lives in. Oh, yeah. Let's do another one. Okay. But Todd, thanks because we love that story too. Thanks, Todd. No, I really appreciate it. We, you know, it's a that story. That's one of the earlier ones that I ever heard about and I just couldn't picture. I remember being like 12 or 13 and hearing that story and I couldn't picture what it meant. Like, yeah, how do you keep a person in a box under your bed? Yeah. How did, how? Well, I had one of those Ikea bed that had drawers underneath it, so I totally get it. You got it. But they also put a box on her head. That was when they trapped her. That's when they first had her in the car. They were all about

boxes in that family. The boxes. Weirdos. Very weird. Not that they also tortured a woman, but. Yeah. And with the boxes, man. All right. There was one that had something about John Walsh. And so I really want to read that one to you because of my theories that I've been reading. Oh, my favorite murder, Adam Walsh case. Here we go. Oh, yeah. This is from E. Allen. It's very fucking long. Ethan Allen, the furniture maker. It's from Ethan Allen. Hello, Georgia. Big fan. What a great podcast. Thanks. My info relates to Adam Walsh who was abducted in 81 from a mall in Hollywood, Florida. In 1978, my dad had this great idea to move our family to Florida to get away from the brutal cold of Western Pennsylvania. His growing paranoia and

black ice phobias that killed my social life. Oh, I thought he was going to say killed my, we're not allowed to leave the house. Can I skip over shit? Is that Duke? I think so. Okay. By 1980, I'd found my first job at the Hollywood Mall in Woolworths working at the snack bar, free pretzels and ice cream. But sadly, the icy machine was always on the fritz. The mall was close enough to our house that I could ride my bike to it in about 15 minutes. And remember that it was an indoor mall with a lot of tropical plants, pastel colors, herds of seniors and totally 80s vibe. The location of Adam Walsh's abduction was the Sears department store at the Hollywood Mall. Now I wasn't working July 27, 1981, the day when six year old Adam was abducted. But the news

coverage was nonstop beginning that evening. From what I remember, Adam's dad, John Walsh was the police top suspect to begin with. There was lots of silent and not silent judgments from neighbors and community people being about him and his wife, Reeve. By the way, they're still married with new replacement kids, he says. Oh no. That's the joke we made though, right? Yeah. We made that about Jean-Vené right now. I think we opened the door on that. Yeah. Have some replacement kids. Oh my yeah. Oh right. That's pretty harsh though when you read it back. Yeah. Okay. So here's the freaky part, he says. My mom worked locally and came home for lunch that day on her way back to work that afternoon, which she had to drive right by the mall. She remembers being tailgated towards

the freeway. The person eventually pulled around her to get by. It was to the point of her getting a good look at the vehicle and thinking the person was really in a big hurry. When the news of Adam's disappearance was on every local TV station, the police begged anyone with info to call. A tip reported by a witness that they saw Adam being pushed into a blue van by a blonde man when he was abducted. When we heard the info about the blue van on the news, my mom started screaming that the blue van had been tailgating her that day. I can remember how crazy and gross and creepy it felt. She ended up calling the police and giving them the information. It's like a month later, they find Adam's head in a canal, chopped off with a machete and another part of Florida somewhere.

A deviant felon, Otis Tool, who have you fucking read about this motherfucker? He's the guy that was him and Gary. Yeah. No, I was going to say Gary Ridgeway, but that's no. Yeah, him and him and the class, the guy that just murdered everybody and fucked everybody. Yeah, we, someone's yelling it at home. We need a third person to be the person to tell us. His name is, hold on. I just saw it today. He had a glass eye. I just listened to the last podcast on the left about it. The last podcast on the left did an episode. A really good one. Let me just find it. Oh my God. So irritating. I know, I know. It's, but I also have a sidebar theory on this. If this person doesn't talk about it. Okay. I want to

hear this. Hold on. Because Otis is the one that says he did it. You think the other guy did it? Or Otis. Because he has two T's, right? Henry Lee Lucas. Yes. Right? Yes. Yep. Okay. Henry Lee Lucas. Another, okay. Otis Tool arrested for something else confessed. Right. Tool says he drove around with Adam's head in his car for a few days before disposing of it. Tool confesses to killing Adam, but he told the police he snatched him in his car, which was an old Cadillac. Let's see here. He totally checks every box in the know your serial killer study. He then recanted his confession, but in 96 while dying in prison again, admitted to killing Adam. However, there's no actual evidence to link Tool to Adam. So what about the blue van? Is this what you're going to

say? Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. In 2007, there was another investigation and witnesses linking Jeffrey Dahmer to Adam Walsh's disappearance. Is this what you're going to say? He was in Florida at the time and drove a blue van for work. Yeah. If you read that info on, he read info on Dahmer. He didn't cut off victims' heads. He did cut off victims' heads. He did. Often boys, but none as young as Adam, but Dahmer denied killing Adam. Is Dahmer still alive? No. They killed him in jail. Good. The police and John Walsh believe that Tool was the killer of Adam. Police closed the case. Yeah. Here's another thing. If he, is that done? Yeah. Because wait, no, he says, Karen, you were hilarious on Twitter and I loved your Marc Maron interview. Oh, thanks.

This was Ethan Allen? Yeah. Yeah. And then he says, wait, Georgia, I don't really know your work. I mean, you're cool. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks, E. So I was reading all those, like the Jeffrey Dahmer thing came out of the blue. I was like, what? Which is kind of amazing. But it didn't seem like that was his, his, he's not a kid. Yeah. But cutting off a head and driving a blue van are so much closer than just to some guy being like, yeah, I totally did. Yeah. Absolutely. And blonde and like young and blonde. And they had a really clear description. But here's the thing. Adam Walsh, both of his front teeth were missing the day that he was there at the mall, because their, his picture, I think it says baseball picture that they used of like,

have you seen this boy had only been taken like a week or two before. And he has no front teeth. And the, the head that they found in the canal had one front tooth. So there's my whole body is shivering. A whole theory that the boy in the canal was not Adam Walsh. Sorry, I need a minute. I'm like literally going to start crying right now. Oh no, is it? That is the most, life is so crazy. It's so crazy. And like the answers were being given aren't necessarily the truth. No, they're just used to placate us or the bad part of me telling you that is that in learning it. And I was just, this was me because I was home at my family. So I spent tons of time just staring at my phone like in my room. And I clicked on one too many links because I'm very good at avoiding

upsetting things. I never like, you know, never listen to 911 calls. I try not to look at too many pictures, but I clicked on this thing and they had the picture of the retrieved. No, they did not. Dick habitated head that they found in the canal. Why is that like public? It's like, you can tell it's a crime scene photo black and white, but I wish I hadn't seen it. But yeah, did you see the tooth? Yeah. And did it look like Adam? I don't, I mean, you can only see part of the fit. Here's the thing. I truly only looked at it for like four seconds because you know the, you know how in a movie when there's a dick capitated head and they look like they're kind of melting. Dick capitated, by the way. Dick capitated twice. I thought it was just an accident,

but then you just did it again. I don't think I normally say that. What if that's what you do? It's, I always try to get a little sexual with stuff like this. I think it's appropriate just to get, just to remind everybody to stay sexy. Just like not to get too fucked up. It's like, okay, don't remember dicks. Yeah. Oh, do that at all. It's such an upsetting looking picture that I only looked at for a second, but there's one big like child's grown in front tooth absolutely in the front. So there's no way in 12 days that boy grew that tooth in. And the, one of the most upsetting things I read when I was reading that story is he was standing at the, at like a play station or a Atari stand in Sears with his mom and his mom went away to go get something and he,

he was, he was 20 feet away, if not less. And she just went to go over here to like return something. And then there was a fight. The kids started fighting about the video game and a security guard came and kicked them all out, pushed them out of the Sears, made them all leave. So a six year old is standing out on the sidewalk alone, kicked out of the Sears and like too shy to go back inside or be like, no, my mom's there have to be in there. He just goes where they tell him to go. And he basically is standing out on the street alone. I'm gonna throw up. Sorry. No, it's incredible. Like that, that to me is like, this is what it felt like to be in the 80s. Like you just always felt like you were about to be fucking snatched off the goddamn street. Yeah.

This story specifically. Yeah, people didn't know to tell their kids like if a, like a security guard is not a cop and you can tell an adult, no, my mom's over there. You can do things, but he was so little. How old was he? Six. Oh, he's a baby. He's a baby. Oh, people are awful. Super gross. Why is life so. But that was like, that was a good one. His mom potentially could could be supporting the Dahmer theory of the Adam Walsh case. I wonder. I mean, I wonder why John is sticking to tool. Oh, tool, tool. Oh, tool. Autist tool. Yeah. I wonder why he like, he doesn't want to change it. He'd probably. They want to be over. He's got to be intense, right? John Maul. Yeah. Oh, you mean like at dinner? Yeah. Yeah. Like nobody wants to talk to him at a party. No,

I don't think so. How's your, how are you? I honestly feel like the couple of times I've like let my mind slightly wander into the possibility of that. And like, I would just be on pills the day from the day it happened until the day I died. Why would you ever? Well, like this, like, fucking Michelle's mom, just by. Yes, check out. Yep. Can't. I can't. So much. Fuck. Please don't kill us, everyone. How do we end this on a positive note? Please don't kill us. Everyone is as positive as one could get. This gets, by the way, this is a comedy podcast, right? Like technically. That's what they say. I mean, it's more like a slumber party where things happen that are great and then things happen against your will. And that's just junior high. Too bad. In life, man. That's

too bad. So is that counting as our hometown? Yeah, unless you have one that you want to. Well, I have my friend Audrey's from when I went home. Oh my God, yes. It's just that I recorded it at my niece's ninth birthday party. So that's sick. Yeah, we were in the other room. We were far away from any child. I just love that. It was mostly adults. Yeah, let's go in the room. And this is my friend, Audrey, who I've been friends with since sixth grade. And it's about my hometown too. Yeah, equally exciting. Okay, let me make this work. All right. So my favorite story, it's not really a murder, but it's something that happened here in Petaluma. It was like 2003. And it was the guy was known as the Petaluma Crowler, aka to the locals in Petaluma,

so this guy put his sweatshirt whole thing, you know, creeper in the summertime would go around to a certain section of town and look for open doors and windows and he would sneak in at night and he would rope women or couples or whatever and tickle their feet and they would scream and then he would run away. So it kept happening weekend night after weekend night, like Friday, Saturday, maybe he'd take a Saturday off to a Sunday. So everyone was getting so freaked out. They had community center meetings about it. When are we going to catch this guy? So one night, my friend and I coming home from the bars, we're driving down her street and we see that there's this whole police line kind of cordoning off the area. So we know that something big is going on.

And so we go and we talk to the cop what's going on and they said, Oh, I can't really tell you, but you know, make sure you lock your door when you go inside. So we thought for sure we're going to see him bust out of the bushes in any second. They never caught him, but they think they knew who it was and they sent him off, like shipped him out of town Sacramento. So it was the greatest thing that ever happened. It was very exciting and terrifying at the same time because, you know, tonight put him in the night that he decided to murder somebody. You don't know. He had to keep doing that's a great story. I love that they just ran him out of town, like wild West style instead of Sacramento's problem now. Yep. Go up there. Gosh, that's

I wonder. Yeah. That's a good story. Like you wake up because someone's tickling your feet. You know what? Here's the thing though, don't hitchhike as we've said, but don't leave your windows and doors open at night. I don't care how hot it is. Yeah. Sweat your balls off. Or move upstairs. Literally, I would never live on the ground floor because of because I have a terrified anxiety filled human being. I mean, it makes sense. But also there's it's like that thing of people getting in, people wanting to get into your house. Yeah. They'll do it if they want to do it. When I walk by, this is awful. I shouldn't admit this. When I walk by a house, I'm like, I could get into that house. Like I'm just like, this is what's wrong with this person. I could,

I could, I want to get into their house to be like, look at, I'm in here. Should I be in here? No, no. And you live on a busy street and I snuck right in. I have that feeling in New York all the time, but it's almost like the opposite where you can look into people's like apartment windows in the front. But it almost feels like, like the, because it's so common, it's not as, it's not as inviting because it just happens all the time. People are used to being able to see right into someone's life. Yeah, don't do it. Don't do that. Well, tickling tickling is a much funnier thing to end on than a toothless, I mean, it's slightly up. I think he was a little molestier than, you know, the tick, the petal when ticklers kind of a fun, it's like the hair burglar where it's like,

yeah, actually it was. Did you just say the hamburger? Yeah. But I messed it up. I love it. I tried to put the word dick in there. I was laughing over a hamd. Decapitated. Send us, to my favorite murder, send us your hometown stories. We fucking love them. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a murder, even like crime, like crazy crimes, something creepy, like a Cropsey story, the woods. Oh, and people who live near the woods, they have creepy woods. Yeah. And then go to iTunes and review us and subscribe and do those things that help us. Please rate, review, rate, review, subscribe. Yeah. Yeah. Please do that. Because like, you know, two women hosting a podcast. Let's please. Let's beat the men. I'm making this feminist out of nowhere. You're gonna be good,

like you didn't believe in us, like two women hosting a podcast. This thing's bullshit. No, I mean, like, don't you guys want us to do well? Because we're two women and we're like, yeah, Hillary, do you hear us? Yeah, I'm making this feminist immediately. Don't, don't kill women. It really is ultimately. Yeah. It's a feminist movement. It is. I'm talking about murder. We're fucking feminists. Is that all? Anything else? I know. Any final thoughts? Don't murder us. This really seems like a concern of yours. I see you. I was just thinking, like, I don't want to talk about it because I'm just going to convince someone to kill me by telling

them why I think it's possible because they should do it because it'll help. I have to say, I feel ready. I've been prepared for so long. That was Karen, by the way. I just want everyone to know that was Karen who said that. Oh my God, I've been like, I'm going to prepare my speech for what happens like to the news. Like, I just didn't, we didn't know. Here's your speech. She asked for it straight up, intentionally recorded it, set it into a microphone. All right. Thanks for listening, guys.