My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 442 - Above & Beyond

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

This week, Karen covers the Montreal Massacre at École Polytechnique and Georgia tells the story of how “Curb Your Enthusiasm” exonerated Juan Catalan. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is exactly right. Lady to lady here to tell you we are celebrating our 600th episode. We commemorate every 100th show with the iconic actor and our dear friend French Stewart. French, French, French, French, French, French, French, French, French. I'm French Stewart. And this time we took him to Las Vegas, baby. Tune in to hear about all the antics and make sure to check out more episodes.

We've got literally 600 to choose from. They're packed with sleepover games and ridiculous tangents with the best guests. Don't miss new episodes every Wednesday. Follow Lady2Lady wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. And welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia hard start. That's Karen kill Gareth. And we're To my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar.

That's Karen Kilgara. And we're going to do this podcast for you. Karen's got a brand new voice for you. When we are in the studio and I can hear things really clearly, it makes me act different. You got to turn your own monitor down so you don't hear your own voice. No, I love my voice. I know, right? It's hard.

It's hard. It's so hard podcast hard. It's hard. It's so hard podcasting. It's so difficult. Nobody tells you. Nobody talks about it. It is a lot of work. Yeah.

But then you get to listen to your voice all the time, which is such a joy. Then you get a beat. Popular. Popular. We're finally, I'm finally the popular girl. You can bleep that name. Shit, that bitch. In her face.

In her fucking face. Pants me in fifth grade. Try it now. My friend jokingly tried to pants me in front of the class. Oh, it was in front of my entire fifth grade class. Like both classes, not just mine, like the two fifth grade classes. Anyway, sorry. That's not the girl that you then cold cocked as you were walking to the office, was it? That's a different one. That was a different one. And that's a different, yeah.

Different event? Yeah. Yeah, that's rough. Yeah, sorry, what were you gonna say? Well. Someone tried to pants you. It was same story, but I had my period. Ah!

And it was my friend who was trying to be funny, like, ha ha. That's not funny. And I turned around and punched her in the stomach. Yeah, you did. I was like, what are you doing? That's not a friend. We're in high school.

High school. Are you serious? Oh, yeah. We were seniors in high school. Have you ever been punched in the gut? I have. It's like, I used to have. I mean, my cousin used to beat us up all the time.

Knocking your breath out feeling is, and you can't catch your breath. I mean, my cousin used to beat us up all the time. Okay. So knocking your breath out feeling is, and you can't catch your breath. I had a war with my best friend slash next door neighbor. It was like my, like just our entire childhood sennas was just like, are we best friends right now or are we mortal enemies? And one of those times she fucking punched me in the gut and I was like, well, I'm dying now. Oh shit.

It's such a bad feeling. Yeah, that's really scary. Not being able to catch your breath. Yeah. Jesus, let me trauma dump real quick. I brought gummy worms. Oh, my god. Those candy salad videos. You guys, look it up if you don't know what it is.

It's genius. And it also goes to show, you know when there's like those trite t-shirts that are like, be kind, you never know what anyone's going through. Right. How about you watch a candy salad video and it's like, my mom used to drive me by the jail my dad was at and he would wave his little hand out a window. It was like that and then something horrible and then you know something like slightly

hopeful and then something really horrible. My mom used to dye my hair blonde. She would make me dye my hair because she said I look too much like my dad. That was how those gals kicked it off. Those are amazing. Candy salad. Legendary. But also it shows that laughter is the best medicine as is like camaraderie and being like, oh we both went through this let's laugh about it and look how horri- I mean, you know what that is? This podcast. This podcast. Hi. Kicking it off with a disgusting pants. I had to one-up you with the pantsing

story with pantsing with my period. No. I mean, the whole pod- like, since the beginning, it's been like, let me show you mine, here's some candy. Look at how horrible this is. Look, look, look, look, look, here's some candy. Here's some candy. Here's some nerd clusters. Yes. It's get it out, get it said, but also make sure other people are hearing this because there is no need to have all that trauma stored up inside of you. Whether it's a therapist or your friend you're eating the sourest gummy candy with, it's all good.

What do they say? Shame thrives in the dark. That's right. I was at dinner and miraculously I was there first. How? I don't know how it happened. Do you ever see those memes that are like, if you can pick one person to go to dinner and if they're late you win a million dollars and it's like who would you pick? Oh, like you're supposed to send it to your late friend or if they bring up their cat you win a million dollars so you send it to your like your cat friend. My cat friend named Kat. Someone actually would bring up her like that kind of thing. Oh, I thought you were talking about yourself. Oh me? Oh, I'm definitely

yes. No, me too. Cat friend. I bet my yes I'm that cat friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, so I'm absolutely the late friend, sitting there feeling very proud, but then of course, the reason people get, when you walk in flustered that they're like, it's okay, is because you sit there feeling lightly stared at and lightly suspicious. I'd never really had any of these experiences before.

Suspicious of what? Why are you just sitting at this table by yourself, sipping water weirdly? I think it's so sexy. I think it's so glamorous and so like, who's she? Intriguing. If you do it right. I was trying to keep my shoulders back so it looked like it was intentional.

You look like a spy. Yeah, I guess so. You know? Well, so, like a spy, what I did was look at my phone and I went on to Twitter because I hadn't been on there in so long. I was like, oh, wait, there might be someone, because you can't look at TikTok in a restaurant because then everyone knows that you're insecure and need to just watch videos and live in another world. So I went on to Twitter and there was a tweet that said, this was from Claire Barrett Stofel

and her at is Blitzed History. And she said, Karen Kilgarafe, I know this is insane, but please show Georgia. So she is basically tagging me. You get those two? I'm so happy because I get so many of the show, you need to show Karen this sinkhole. Okay. Okay, the fact that you get them too makes me really satisfied. Yes, absolutely.

Okay, what is it? So this one is from Messed Up Foods. Have you heard of that account? Uh-uh. Well, you know I love gross food stuff. Let me see. Okay, it's a hot dog meme of a goth dude and it says, yeah, I'm goblin on this hot dog. Thank you. She was right because I hadn't seen it. You needed to show me that. How I not been tagged in that. Instagram

everyone you guys are on report because I should have been tagged in that. That feels like Claire Barrett-Soffel was just kind of scrolling scrolling and then she was just like wait this has all the things combined in one thing. I ate a hot dog as of last night. I ate a hot dog. Oh, where were you? At this bar in our neighborhood that has like the best fucking hot dog. Oh. And I met some murderinos there too. Nice.

Yeah. Well, was it because you were holding the hot dog in both hands like you were in a commercial and they were like, wait a second, I know you. I recognize that hot dog person. I recognize that hot dog person. I recognize that passion for dogs. Oh, listen, I don't know. I don't have much. Lacey Peterson documentary, check. The Decameron is fucking incredible. You are correct.

So good. So good. Check. What else? God, your list was so short. I know. That's really... Mine was Claire's message to you. That was all the business I had to share. I think we took care of it. We got it done. Let's roll into the business.

Yeah. Hey, you guys, we have a podcast network. Did you know that? It's hard. It's happening right now. It's happening. And it's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights. Okay. This is very exciting. So you remember the Teachers Pet podcast. When it came out, you and I talked about it. It was incredible podcasting journalism from an Australian podcaster and journalist named Headley Thomas. And he this week is on Wicked Words with Kate Winkler-Dawson. Please go and listen to that. This man is really good at what he does.

Epic. Yeah. Journalists are so smart. And on That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast, Kara and Lisa welcome actress Tamara Tooney, who played the medical examiner Melinda Warner, you guys, on SVU for more than 20 years. What a gig. I read this and got chills.

No joke. That's insane. This is a podcast that people are obsessed with. That's Messed Up like fucking hot as shit. It's great. It's so good. I mean, because also Law and Order SVU, the whole Law and Order series, of course, but Law and Order SVU specifically is this little world.

And like, when you're in that world, you think you're the only one in the world. Right. But everyone's in the world with you. And they know everything, and you know everything, and it's so exciting. And Kara and Lise are like two of the funniest people I've ever listened to talk. Truly. They're great hosts.

They're great standup comics. They are. And then Tamara Tooney just holding it down for 20 years as like the voice of reason of like, well, you're not gonna think that anymore because I've found two pounds of- Well, that's not how blood spatter works, you bitch. So they discussed the episode Shattered from 2010, so make sure to check out and follow

and subscribe to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. And then over on I Saw What You Did, Danielle and Millie are discussing Rebel Without a Cause from 1955 and The Last Picture Show from 1971. Classics. That's some cinema. There you go. That's some cinema. There's some cinema. There you go. That's some cinema.

There's some film. There's some filmic cinema. And then go to the MFM store and check out our new murderino t-shirts and tank tops if you're like me and you're a fan of seafoam green. Which is so like we're laughing because every time we look at merch, we get, like, options and it's black, white, and seafoam. And without a fucking hesitation every time, like, I really like the seafoam one. I don't know. I feel like the seafoam looks great this time.

And Karen's like, I like the black one. And so everything is in seafoam or black. That's the reason. So go to MyFavoriteMurder.com to check that out, please. Also, we just want to thank you so much. These rewind episodes that we're doing, it's a third episode basically of My Favorite Murder every week. And it has been an incredible kind of team effort of everybody here that works it exactly

right. We've started planning it two years ago. And we basically were very scared to do it. And we started doing it. And you guys have shown up in such an incredible way for us. We can't thank you enough. Thank you so much for the great reviews. Thank you so much for coming and listening and walking down memory lane for us. Because it is very, it was a daunting thing to think about. You know, we've been through a couple things on this podcast. We've fucked some things up.

There have been traumas that we've caused and that we've had through this podcast. So revisiting that was a very scary idea. And we were originally just going to put the remastered episodes out. Like there wasn't even the idea of like let's revisit them now. We're just going to fix the sound. Yeah, just fix the sound. And back slowly out of the room. Right, but you guys have responded so positively.

It's been really heartwarming and it's fun and we're just gonna keep doing them, you know, as long as the candy salad is being made. Yes, let's grab some, let's grab a bag of gummies, cherry gummies, that's the last gummy item that I bought. Ooh, peach gummies, I love those peach ring gummies. Yeah's the last gummy item that I bought. Ooh, peach gummies. I love those peach ring gummies. Yeah, those are pretty.

They have a nice spring to them. Oh, they do. They do. Karen, you know how your hair isn't just like hair? Yes. Hair is part of our identity. I mean, I feel like I can do anything when I'm having a good hair day.

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So whether it's just the age or whether it's stress or whatever's going on, you just kind of start losing your hair. I started taking Nutri-Ful, it's like here take this, this will help you and it absolutely I started taking it. I could see results really quickly. That's so awesome. So address your root causes of hair thinning with Nutri-Ful, the hair growth routine that's right for you. For a limited time Nutri-Ful is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription

and free shipping when you go to Nutri-Full.com and enter the promo code murder. Nutri-Full.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com promo code murder. That's Nutri-Full.com promo code murder. Goodbye. Karen, do you ever wish your daily chores could be a bit more exciting? I mean, I'm sure most people feel that way, but if you've never seen me fold laundry, it's illegal in 13 states. Wow.

Well, for the rest of us, there's Audible. You can turn mundane tasks into epic adventures, dive into a new audiobook while you clean, cook, or commute. With thousands of titles released each year, Audible has the best selection of audiobooks, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals. And it's all in one easy-to-use app. Enjoy Audible anytime, even while doing other things like chores, travel, ignoring your family.

It's up to you. You'll find endless inspiration and entertainment without needing to set aside extra time. Check out the Audible original, FBI Profilers Criminal Archives. Join former FBI profilers Jim Clemente and Kathy Canning-Mello as they revisit the cases that haunted them throughout their careers. So I am one of Audible's best customers. I swear to God, I'm in their fan club.

I have an audio book I listen to while I'm doing my chores that I'm engrossed in. I have an audio book that I fall asleep to by turning the volume and the speed down. And right now, the self-help audio book that I'm engrossed in. I have an audio book that I fall asleep to by turning the volume and the speed down. And right now, the self-help audio book that I'm listening to is The Easy Way to Control Alcohol by Alan Carr, which is a classic. Everyone's obsessed.

That is like half of my day is audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash murder or text murder to 500-500. That's audible.com slash murder or text murder to 500 500. That's audible.com slash murder or text murder to 500 500 to try audible free for 30 days. Audible.com slash murder. Goodbye.

It's me first. Yay, I'm going to sit back with my Bucky's coffee mug that's actually filled with rose and ice that I'm pouring into an exactly right mug. All right. Well, good. I'm glad that'm pouring into an exactly right mug. All right. Well, good. I'm glad that you have that because you're going to need it. Oh, shit. This is a story that actually Marin and I have been talking about since she started working

with us, which has been a long time. She's had a child in that time. So, I think it's a very early story. But oftentimes on this show, when we're picking and choosing the stories that we're covering, we're also trying to think about what's going on in the world. Whether it will help or whether it will hurt and all of those things, a lot of considerations. And so, there have been times where we got this story ready and then it seemed like it would be bad timing. And now it feels like it would be very good timing.

So this is a story about a mass shooting. So take that as you will and be warned. And Marin followed best practices to cover this story. So she doesn't name the shooter, doesn't link his actions directly to mental illness, doesn't use superlatives. Then she explains that to me at the top of the document. Basically there's guidance of how we talk about these stories. But especially this one, because it's one that maybe Americans don't know very well.

It happened in Montreal, Canada in 1989 on December 6th at an elite engineering school called Iqal Polytechnic. I'd also like to say I'm going to try to give the French pronunciations a nod, but I won't do it correctly and I'll definitely pre-apologize for that. I will do my best. So it's December 6th, 1989, the last day of regular classes before midterm exams begin. So as students are filing in and out of classrooms, of course, there's that buzz in the air of either holiday or graduation coming up. They all know that they just have to get through this last big push, basically, before they

get a break. But by the day's end, the university will become the site of unimaginable violence and tragedy and it'll mark one of the darkest moments in Canadian history. A man will arrive on campus with a firearm, a deep hatred of women, and the will to commit horrible acts of violence that will change Canada. It will shatter women everywhere's sense of safety and ultimately create a true about face regarding the pervasive and insidious presence of gender-based violence. This is the story of the mass shooting at the Ecole Polytechnique, also known as the

Montreal Massacre. Wow. Okay. So, the sources that were used in today's research, we've talked about this documentary show before the Fifth Estate. So, it's a 1999 episode of the Canadian Investigative Documentary Program, The Fifth Estate, the book Because They Were Women, The Montreal Massacre, by José Boileau, and multiple articles from the Montreal Gazette. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So around 4 p.m. on December 6, 1989, the final hours of the

semester at Ecole Polytechnique are unwinding. For some students, graduation is just days away. Because it's snowing outside, things are a little quieter than usual. That is until a 25-year-old man walks onto campus carrying something long and narrow in a garbage bag. This man knows this engineering school well. He applied to be a student here. He was not accepted. This man is enraged. More specifically, he has an intense hatred of women, and he believes all of the female students who attend this school were only admitted because of their sex. This is despite the fact that the male engineering students vastly outnumber women. The man carrying this garbage bag walks into the registrar's office, takes a seat.

He looks like he could be a student. So when a staffer asks if he needs any help, this man simply says that he's, quote, just waiting. He doesn't specify what he's waiting for. And then around 5 10 p.m. he gets up, he leaves the registrar's office, he pulls a semi-automatic rifle out of the garbage bag, and he calmly walks into a nearby classroom. The professor and the students to see him walk in, but at first they don't know like if he's a stranger, they don't know what's going on

They think maybe it's a student pulling a kind of an end-of-semester joke Yeah Then the gunman orders all the men to move toward the right side of the classroom and the women to the left The gunman then yells quote I hate feminists and fires his weapon into the ceiling then orders the men to leave the classroom. Then the gunman opens fire on the women. Three of the students are injured, six of them are killed. So the women killed are 23-year-old Elen Colgan.

She's in her last year of mechanical engineering coursework. She's an amazing student. In fact, she's already had multiple job offers, and she's planned on accepting one at a company outside of Toronto. Her parents are incredibly proud of her. Her father, Clarence, says, quote, no one was more studious than her. She worked really hard and read everything

she could get her hands on. Elen was murdered standing next to her best friend, 23-year-old Natalie Croutau. The two women were planning a vacation to Mexico later that month after they finished all of their exams. Natalie had been interested in science since her teens, particularly in engineering, and that, of course, made her different from other girls in her classes. But as journalist Jose Boileau describes, going to Polytechnique didn't intimidate her at all despite the demands of the program and the fact that she found herself among a small group of women in the middle of a sea of men.

She was there to learn it was her passion." End quote. Then there was Anne-Marie LeMay. She was a 22-year-old mechanical engineering student who became interested in engineering after a friend lost the use of his legs when she was a teenager, and she saw how important mechanical medical devices were for people with disabilities, and she wanted to help design them. Wow.

Anne-Marie's parents describe her as, quote, responsible and easygoing, and they note that she, quote, doesn't argue over useless details, which to me means she's smart. She's a smart person. Outside of class, Anne-Marie plays in a rock band. 22-year-old Barbara Danyo is about to graduate. She inherited her love for mechanical engineering from her father Pierre, who was a respected professional in the field and who worked at a different university in Montreal. Barbara plans to meet with her father in two days to work on her final project, which he was looking forward to. According to the CBC, Pierre, quote, died of a heart

attack in 1996, but his widow said his heart really stopped beating on December 6, 1989. Oh, my God. And then 23-year-old Annie St. Arnaud is described by her loved ones as, quote, curious and thoughtful. She was the kind of woman that liked to adventure off the beaten path because she knew it could teach her something valuable. She liked writing poetry, playing the flute. She has a background in theater. But science is her real passion, and she actually has a job interview lined up for the next day. And

then there's 28-year-old Sonia Peltier. She is the youngest of eight children from a small village in a remote part of Quebec. She's a star student, the type of classmate who wins all the scholarships and all the awards. Sonia has already completed a degree in architectural technology. I mean, these women are so smart. Brilliant. So brilliant. Yeah. So she's already completed a degree in architectural technology.

Now she's studying mechanical engineering because she wants to get her degree and go back to her hometown so she can live and work near her family, who of course she loves very much. Her sister-in-law once said of Sonia, quote, she worked hard even on weekends because she wanted so much to be an engineer, end quote. So those six young lives are all ended in a moment. All the promise, all the passion gone. And now on a rampage, this gunman bursts out of the classroom and moves down the hall.

And as he does, he tells the men to get out of the way so he can shoot at women. Jesus. And he does shoot at women. But somehow, thank God, the women he targets in the hallways either escape or survive their injuries. Wow. Then he arrives at the school's financial services office where a 25-year-old named Maurice Lagagnier is packing up for the day. So, Maurice is described as shy and sensitive and, quote, always smiling.

She is just putting on her snow boots and her jacket to meet her new husband, Jeff Larivet. The two were married three months before and he's waiting outside to pick her up. Yeah. They met at a coal polytechnique. Jeff was an engineering student there and he had missed his deadline to pay his tuition. But when he arrived at the financial services office to take care of this problem, he's immediately struck by Marise and her quote magnificent blue eyes. Now here on December 6th, as Marise prepares to go meet her love outside, the phone starts ringing. She picks it up and hears a panicked caller warning her there's an active shooter in the building. This is

1989. This is so early. It's so unimaginable. It's crazy and it makes me very sad that these days that phrase active shooter, we are just used to it. Totally. Wild. So Maurice rushes to the door to lock it, just as the shooter is passing that door. And he sees her lunging for the door, so then he lunges for the door, and they both start pushing it. He's basically trying to force it open.

They fight for control. Maurice wins. She manages to close and lock the door, but next to the door is a window. So the shooter steps back and shoots through the window, and in one instant, Maurice is hit and killed. So now the gunman heads towards the cafeteria, where there's about a hundred people standing around. They're all confused because they're all now hearing rumors of an active shooter. Most of them probably don't even know what that means.

Right. Nowadays, there'd be protocol and you'd know that sound and you'd act immediately. But in 1989? It would be like people would say that and you would be like, no, they're not. Don't be crazy. Or you'd hear these pops and you'd think, what is that? It must be blah, blah, blah. Your brain wouldn't go to a shooter. Right. So, as people are kind of talking about it and trying to basically figure out what's happening, the shooter walks into the room and immediately fires at a 31-year-old student

named Barbara Kluschnik-Videyevich. She's eating with her husband, Vitold. So Barbara's a former economist. She's now a first-year nursing student. She loves painting. She loves listening to jazz. She can speak five languages. She and her high school sweetheart, now husband, Wietold, recently emigrated from Poland, and Wietold witnesses his wife's murder. According to the CBC, quote, the couple was in the cafeteria of the engineering school that night because it was the cheapest place to eat on campus.

Her husband, who was not injured in the shooting, said they had both believed Canada was the safest place in the world. Jesus fucking Christ. So after murdering Barbara, the shooter then opens a nearby storage room where two young women are hiding, Almarie Edouard and Jean-Vivre Bergeron. He shoots and kills them both. 21-year-old Anne-Marie Edouard is a chemical engineering student

who truly can do it all. She plays chess, she plays soccer, she loves horseback riding, sailing, baseball. She's a proud member of the school ski team and just a week earlier she participated in a ski-a-thon to fundraise for cancer research. 21-year-old Jean-Vivre Bergeron loves music. She plays the clarinet, she sings in the Montreal Symphony Orchestra Choir and she's actually so passionate about music that she considered studying it in college, but she ultimately chose mechanical engineering, thinking it would be like a more secure career

path for her. The fact that she had those options. Yeah. Jean-Vivier is an incredible student who excels in every class, and she's described as talented, charismatic, and cheerful. She's also very loved. Jean-Vivier is adored by her parents, of course, and she's extremely close with her sister. So now the gunman goes up to the school's third floor to room 311.

Inside the instructor is listening to his students give their final presentations. No one in this room has any idea of what's happening outside. They're all caught up in like final presentations, which people have been studying for and working so hard for, they're like not even thinking about it, anything like that. The door flies open, the gunman enters, and he immediately kills four more women. Those women are 23-year-old Maryse LeClair,

a brilliant and rebellious young woman who loves new wave and punk music. Her friends lovingly talk about a time when she let them graffiti her car and then she took pride driving it around town like it was a moving art piece. Oh my God, I love it. And then there's Annie Turcutt, who is a 20-year-old materials engineering student. She's a happy-go-lucky and generous person who loves nature, cares deeply about the environment, and she also cares about people.

She gave free swimming lessons at a summer camp for disabled youth, and then did the same with the children who stayed at her parents' owned motel. Mm. Maud Aviernik was a creative soul with a degree in interior design, but she was also very ambitious and so she was now pursuing her second degree in engineering. Sculpting was one of her passions. And like the other students in room 311, Maud was there to give her final presentation in her medals class. She was paired with another student for that presentation, 21-year-old Michelle Richard, who went by the nickname Mimi.

Mimi is the exact person that you would want to work on a big class project with. Described as having, quote, a calming presence, she drew people in with her gentle and warm personality. Mimi was very close with her mother, Thérèse Marté, who raised Mimi and her sister as a single mom. Thérèse describes their relationship as, quote, something extraordinary. After murdering these last four women, the gunman then turns the gun

on himself. It's now 5.25 p.m. and the terror at École Polytechnique ends less than 20 minutes after it begins. Wow. So, as I've said multiple times, it's 1989. So this horrifying event is one of Quebec's first active shootings. The police response is neither quick nor efficient. Officers arrive at the school 12 minutes after their first call. By the time the gunman is dead, the police are still outside waiting for the SWAT team

to show up, which was protocol at the time. News of the attack spreads quickly, so now family and friends of the students are rushing to campus hoping that their loved ones are not among the victims. That's another horrible thing that we've seen in this country plenty of times, which is family members standing outside waiting to see who's alive. Those photos from outside schools are just horrifying. Maryse Laguiniere's husband Jeff is in that crowd. He stands terrified as he watches the first responders carry stretchers into and then back out of his wife's building.

And in subsequent news footage that aired that night, you can see him standing there waiting. He later remembers, quote, nobody was Marise and all the stretchers that were going out. I began to be more scared. I was yelling her name to the window. The windows weren't open, but maybe she could hear me. Oh my God. This is the hardest one ever.

This is real. Yeah. It's so crazy because I feel like for you and I, there's this different world. I graduated high school the year before Columbine. So I never thought about this. But so many of our listeners have been raised to think about nothing but this. Your niece and my nephews, this is part of their everyday life. My sister every single year has to do protocol this year with kindergartners.

She has to explain to five-year-olds what they're doing and why they're doing it. And she's been doing that for 25, 30 years of her life and career. I mean, the complex PTSD, the little t trauma, but learning that as a kindergartner and then remembering it and being taught it for the rest of your school age is... A big t trauma. A big t trauma it becomes. It's a deep wound that you'll never get out of your head.

Well, and it just makes sense that like Gen Z, all these young people that are like, hey, fuck you. Fuck you politicians. Fuck fuck you. Fuck you, politicians. Fuck you, leadership. Fuck you. None of you know what you're doing. Because the one thing that they could have solved, and in a way where you can still have your fucking gun.

You can have it. Have them. You can have it. It's just not the way it fucking is. It just has to be regulated. It has to be in a simple fucking clear obvious way that if you listen to, you would agree with and understand. Yeah.

But like if you weren't caught up in some kind of faux argument about your rights. Right. It's not about politics. It's not about trying to shout down the hippie at Thanksgiving. Right. politics. It's not about trying to shout down the hippie at Thanksgiving. This is about the fact that little kids have to learn how to deal with enraged shooter lunatics. That they have to buy bulletproof fucking backpacks.

Like imagine being there. We're so lucky we didn't have to ever consider that in school, you and I, but. Just so you know, just so everyone listening knows, this gets worse. Okay. In kind of these ways that we're talking about, the real world kind of affect that these massive, nightmarish, horrifying traumas actually have on people. So by 6 p.m., the spokesperson for the Montreal police, a man named Pierre Leclerc, addresses the media

who've gathered outside this school. It's a difficult job no matter who you are, but Pierre has a personal connection. His daughter goes to this school. So he tells reporters he's going to go inside the building himself, see firsthand what's happened, and he will come back out and report. He knows he's walking into horrific scene, but he also wants to give answers to the public as soon as possible. So he makes his way through the carnage. And when he arrives at room 311, where the last four victims were killed, he sees the body

of his daughter, Maurice, wearing the same red sweater she'd recently worn to dinner at her parents' house. Pierre will later tell the CBC, quote, you know, I didn't think about it. I knew that my daughter was there that night, but things were going so fast, I never, never, never thought that Maryse could be one of the victims. Here I am in front of my daughter who is dead,

and the guy who killed her who is lying beside her. What do you do with that? I really don't know what to do with that. front of my daughter who is dead and the guy who killed her who is lying beside her, what do you do with that? I really don't know what to do with that." So of course, this massacre is the beginning of a never-ending cycle of grief for the families and the friends of the 14 young women who've been killed and the people surrounding, and the people who were there that day. All of their lives have been changed forever. The father of Natalie Crouteau, Fernand Crouteau, Natalie was killed in the first group of women.

He punches a cement wall after he identifies his daughter's body. And then he tells reporters, quote, it's horrendous, 23 years aimed at graduating with a degree. She's only three months away from getting it and she's killed all because she was sitting in a chair in a classroom. Ann Marie Edward was among the victims murdered in the cafeteria. Her mother, Suzanne, expresses the prolonged grief felt by all the victims' loved ones saying, quote, I was a happier woman. I'm no longer a happy woman. I cannot possibly be a happy woman after this.

Yeah. So, when the mayor of Montreal, a man named Jean Doré, addresses the media at a press conference, he starts to cry. And as José Boileau reports, this is a time when, quote, crying in public was rare for a man and unheard of for an elected official. But Jean Doré knew one of the victims. Jean-Fievre Bergeron was his toddler's babysitter. Oh my God. She also went door to door for him in his political campaign in the mid-80s.

Jean-Vivier was one of the two women who were hiding in that storage closet, the one that loved opera and played the clarinet. So there's so many connections to the victims, but then there's also the victims who are the survivors. Because they're left to grapple with the lasting physical and emotional scars. And this one is so incredibly tragic. A male student named Sarto Bley has such guilt and grief about not being able to stop the gunman that he takes his own life eight months after the shooting, and then

his parents, who are unable to cope with their grief, take their lives. In the days, weeks, and months that follow the events of December 6th, the Canadian public tries to figure out the why behind the tragedy. Now some reporters fall into the trap of attributing the gunman's actions to mental illness without addressing the seething malignant misogyny. But the gunman's hatred is indisputable. Authorities end up finding a hit list that he'd written that included the names of 19 prominent Canadian women who were successful in male-dominated fields like media and government.

What the fuck? The people of Canada, including their government leaders, begin to reckon with the fact that sexism and misogyny are a serious issue in their country. Imagine that. And in the world. Yeah. So advocates begin the hard work of figuring out how to prevent a tragedy like this from ever happening again.

So research centers on violence against women and domestic abuse are established across Canada. Friends and families of the victims of the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre form a foundation to support this research, and parliamentary panels begin studying the issue as well. From these efforts, hundreds of reports and dozens of studies are released over the next couple years, and a public awareness campaign is set into motion. Of course, none of this ends the problem of gendered violence, but José Boileau reports, quote, the topic is now part of the zeitgeist, transcending the borders of Quebec and Canada.

In 1993, the UN general adopts the Declaration of Violence Against Women, officially recognizing the problem for the first time, 1993. Jesus, come on. It's followed in 1999 by the inauguration of the International Day for Elimination of Violence Against Women. The tragedy at École Polytechnique also spotlights Canada's gun control movement. The tireless advocacy of both survivors of the shooting and those who lost loved ones because of it results in the passing of multiple laws in the early 90s that strengthen background

checks, require mandatory firearm safety trainings, and establish a registration of all firearms in Canada. Imagine that. But the battle to make Canada safer from gun violence is one that is never ending. In some ways, the political environment around guns in Canada is very much like our own here in the United States. There are conservatives that are arguably in the pocket of the gun lobby who work to dismantle the existing regulations to make buying and circulating firearms much easier. So as the contentious debate around

gun control rages on, both the survivors of the massacre and the loved ones of its 14 victims continue to fight to keep the memory of the Montreal Massacre alive. They established the December 6 Victims Foundation Against Violence, which provides support to victims of gender-based violence and works to prevent more tragedies through education and advocacy. And now December 6 marks the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women in Canada. On this day, moments of silence are observed, gun control demonstrations are held, and a wreath of white roses is laid on the campus of École Polytechnique.

Over 30 years have passed since the massacre, and it's important that we all remember that it happened. Survivors have expressed a, quote, fear of forgetting, not just the dangers of misogyny and gun violence, which are obviously still relevant and maybe rampant. You could say rampant, but also how special, fearless, intelligent, and boundary-breaking these 14 young women were. Jose Boileau writes, quote, sleeping beauties as they were called 25 years later by journalist Shelley Page,

who covered the massacre for Ottawa citizen. At the time overwhelmed by grief, we didn't see that they were so much more. So Page added, quote, I should have referred to the buildings they wouldn't design, the machines they wouldn't create, the products they would never imagine. Indeed, and talked about the strong women

who had carved a place for themselves in a field until then reserved to men and who felt perfectly comfortable there, it is these determined women who stood out in so many ways that we now need to discover anew one by one. Again, the victims of the 1989 Montreal Massacre. Holy shit.

I fucking didn't know that story. I'm so glad you covered it. The things those women would have accomplished and should have accomplished may have changed the world completely. And because one man couldn't be told no, one man couldn't accept that he was not as smart or as qualified or as talented as these women. And I mean, look, that's hard. That is hard in life to be aiming towards something and seeing yourself as that thing

and then basically learning that the outside world doesn't agree with you. There's got to be ways where men can take this rage that they have and stop putting it out into the world as if it's justified. It has to get worked through and processed and they have to fix themselves or help each other. But this idea that women are supposed to be the subject and the sounding board and the victims of their inability to deal with how hard real life is, it just is childish. Yeah. It's ugly. Like there's so many people doing the fucking work. We're doing the work

on ourselves because we know that's where it starts and ends. And there's men doing the work. This isn't entirely like gendered in that way. But it is that thing. It's the quote that I included in our book by Jackson Katz, where he talks about all of the language that where we talk about violence against women, it's male violence. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about domestic violence. It's men hitting their wives and children. It's all of that stuff where sexual assault against women, male assault, that they are

out of the conversation and therefore they can seem to be able to choose whether or not. And it's all just placed on women. We have to learn how to deal with it. We have to learn how to avoid it. We have to learn how to move on from it. Well, why the fuck are we learning these things in the first place? If they learned how to control it, how to move past it, how to deal with it, then we would never...

It's the whole thing that we always talk about, about curfews for women because women are being raped in this town or neighborhood. What was she wearing? What was she wearing? It's that energy of always displacing where it's like maybe that's the simplest or the easiest thing to think of. But since that isn't the solution, could we please come up with a solution with what is happening and in terms of the rage and the violence that some men really feel is the only option for them?

You know, be a great first step is electing more women into power. Can you imagine? I can. I can imagine it. It feels like it can happen very soon. I wonder what this rewind episode is going to sound like. I mean, oh, God. Because like, I guess someone wrote in and was like, Georgia, you accidentally said in

2021, President Kamala Harris, and then corrected yourself with vice president. So just like, what are we going to be talking about now? I hope it's fucking positive. I hope we talk about how hard it is right now and how much better it's gotten when we do the rewind episode of this one. I do too. And I feel like that's so possible because it does feel like culturally a turn. I think this hope thing that everyone is so scared of, it isn't just about those political parties one winning over the other. Yeah, because that's bullshit. We know that fucking neither of them are perfect, neither

of them are ideal. There's so many fucking issues. Yeah, nobody has some sort of dream that there's going to be two perfect politicians that come and fix everything. Right. there's going to be two perfect politicians that come and fix everything. But we sure the fuck don't have to go in the direction that we have been going. It's almost like we can all lock arms and look at each other going like, no one wants this. No one actually wants that kind of hysterical hatred and negativity. The hysterical hatred, that's so true.

Do you want to give $10,000 to every town for gun safety? Yep. hysterical hatred and negativity. The hysterical hatred, that's so true. Do you want to give $10,000 to Everytown for Gun Safety? Yep. OK. This is an American nonprofit that most of us know about, because it comes into the news all the time. It's Everytown for Gun Safety. Their website is everytown.org.

And the Everytown for Gun Safety Support Fund seeks to improve our understanding of the causes of gun violence and the Everytown for Gun Safety Support Fund seeks to improve our understanding of the causes of gun violence and the means to reduce it by conducting groundbreaking original research, which sounds like is what the Canadians did, developing evidence-based policies and communicating this knowledge in the courts and the court of public opinion. So donate to Everytown for Gun Safety if you can. Hell yeah. Great job. I'm so glad you covered that.

Me too. I mean, it was sitting there and it's like there are so many cases like this where it's just you look at it and you just go, this is so hard. Totally. This is tragedy upon tragedy. You know, because those male students were also victims of this shooter. Absolutely. And the thing it must have done to those male students were also victims of this shooter. Absolutely. And the thing it must have done to those male students. Psychologically, it's just horrible. Yeah.

Well, you did a great job. Thank you. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace. You know, Karen, the Olympics just ended, and I can't stop thinking about one thing. The enduring power of the human spirit. Yes. And the fact that most of those athletes

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Goodbye. All right, well, I don't want to say we're doing a U-turn because we're still on the same highway and we're still moving forward. Okay. We're just like rounding a bend. Okay. But it's still a fucked up highway. Sure.

You know? That's the highway we're on for the duration. That's right. I don't think I'm going to tell you the twist of this one, but I bet you'll guess it. So my story today is about someone who was wrongfully accused of murder, faced sentencing of death, and was only cleared because of a series of lucky breaks. This is a story of Juan Catalan. Okay, I'll tell you the sources once you figure it out, which you will. So on the morning of August 13, 2003, a 25-year-old man named Juan Catalan arrives at work at

his family's machinist shop in Los Angeles. His girlfriend Alma and their young daughter are with him, and as soon as Juan and Alma get out of the car, two police officers hop out of an unfamiliar truck parked nearby. They pull their guns, pointing them at Juan, and they tell him to lie down on the ground while they cuff him in front of his girlfriend Alma and their young daughter. More officers materialize, guns all pointed at Juan, all screaming at him to get down on the ground. So just as an aside, the unit that's been dispatched to arrest Juan has been nicknamed

the Death Squad because of the number of people they keep killing during the process of arresting them. This is of course horrific and it's even more horrific because Juan Catalan has not committed a crime at all. The fact that he wasn't killed by the arresting officers is the first in a series of lucky breaks that would ultimately save his life. I wish I was educated. I wish I knew more about it. I wish I could speak to it from an expert. But the idea that the police budget is in the billions with a B in Los Angeles,

and yet they have death squads going around is insane. Totally. Let me tell you about Juan. He's born in Los Angeles in 1978. Juan's father is a machinist, owns his own business. As teenagers, Juan and his brother Mario fall in with the wrong crowd. But for Juan, it's to a much lesser extent. The brothers are involved in petty crimes,

but after Juan's first brush with the law, he decides this isn't for him. He wants a better future. He meets Alma in high school in their biology class. They fall in love. They have two children together. And meanwhile, the brother Mario gets more involved in gang-related activities.

But meanwhile, Juan has a totally normal life and works in the family shop. In April of 2003, four months before Juan is arrested, Mario is charged as a co-defendant in a murder case. It's unclear if Mario is actually a member of this gang, but friends are affiliated with a gang called the Vineland Boys. And on the night in question, which had been months earlier, November 2003, Mario had been driving a Vineland Boy

named Jose Ledesma. And from the passenger seat, Jose had shot and killed another man when Mario was driving. It sounds like it hadn't been planned and like agreed upon. Mario didn't know about it, but because he was driving, he's immediately accomplice. You know, that's how it works. You know, I've talked about Father Gregory Boyle and Homeboy and Homegirl Industries, which is one of the coolest nonprofits and like things that he set up there. But one of the things they say, and they sell merch that has this, it says,

if you hang around a barbershop, you're gonna get a haircut. Oh And it's that it's that thing where like if you can't get away from the barbershop If you can't if you're locked into a barbershop If the barbershop is the only option and the only place that you feel safe and taken care of and like a family Yeah, absolutely And the times you try to go out to not be in the barbershop You just kind of get sent back because you know Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. living. Absolutely. Absolutely. Great point. We are bringing up a lot of points for really smart people to talk about. And criticize us for saying wrong. Sure, but we're bringing it up and we're starting the conversation. Yes, that's right. We should have them on the podcast. We should have a fourth episode where we talk to smart people who know what they're talking about. That's right. We should have a fourth and fifth episode and go full Joe Rogan with this fucking podcast. Oh my God. My favorite expert. All the time. Boom. Yeah. And then we never have lives again. Okay, so Mario is charged because he's an accomplice,

and police then search the Caudillan home, and they find weed. And it's unclear how much, but it seems like maybe more than is for personal use, you know? But either way, at the time it's illegal in California, and the police ask who the weed belongs to, and they find weed.

And then they're like, oh, I'm gonna go get some weed. And then they're like, much, but it seems like maybe more than is for personal use, you know? But either way, at the time, it's illegal in California and the police ask who the weed belongs to and they don't accept for some reason that Mario's like, it was mine, even though it really does belong to him. So he was trying to take, you know, responsibility for it. Yeah, accountability. But the police insist that it's either his brother, Juan, who is not involved in criminal activity, or his father. So they're trying to pin it on them and so on Juan or the father. And so Juan is like, okay, they're mine, so that his father doesn't get taken down.

And so he's charged with intent to distribute. So at that point, Juan is like really worried. And he remembers that his cousin had worked as a filing clerk for a criminal defense attorney named Todd Melnick. So he gets in touch with him and he agrees to be on his case. So at a pretrial hearing for the murder case against Juan's brother Mario, one of the witnesses who testifies is a 16-year-old girl named Martha Puebla. So Martha had not actually been present for the drive-by shooting that Mario was part of.

Jose had shot and killed someone else days later outside of Martha's house. This is all kind of confusing, but stick with it. So Mario and Jose are charged as co-defendants in both of those murders. And on the stand, Martha denies seeing anything in either of the two shootings. Juan is at that hearing to support his brother. He sees Martha testify. He thinks nothing of it. But on the night of May 12, 2003, 10 days after that hearing, Martha, the 16-year-old, is shot outside her home and killed.

And so Juan is arrested two months later, and he's charged with her murder, which doesn't make any sense. Juan insists he had nothing to do with it, that he would never hurt anybody. He's not gang affiliated. He asked to take a lie detector test, and he's denied, which is so funny, because they're always like,

will you take one? Will you take one? Like, when they think someone did it, but when you ask to do it, they're like, no. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like there's an agenda. LB – Yeah. Yeah. Police say that an eyewitness gave information for a composite sketch and the composite sketch looked like Juan. And they also said that an eyewitness picked him out of a photo lineup. And they show him the photo lineup, his photos circled, and they ask him what he was doing on the night of May 12th. And by

the way, it's now August. Juan says he doesn't remember where the, you know, who the fuck remembers where you were? He doesn't remember where he was that night, but when he figures it out, he thinks it'll clear his name. So he starts to look into it. And it's his girlfriend Alma who has the light bulb moment realizing that on May 12th, the night of the murder, it was right after Mother's Day and Juan, a massive Dodgers fan, had been given tickets to the Dodgers game. Oh. Yeah.

Oh, I know this. I know what this is. I know what this is. Yeah, you do. Yes, I know. This is incredible. How have we not covered this one yet? Because I think it, to me it felt like a story that came together online.

So then when I first saw it, like wherever I saw it first, I was like, is that real? It seems like it's not real. It's so unbelievable and the fucking luck that was involved, you know? I mean, okay, so here we go. So now I can tell you, because I wasn't sure if you were going to, if you'd seen it, but the main sources I used for this episode is the documentary Long Shot, which I fucking highly recommend. It's great.

It'll show you frame by frame. And then also an article from LA Magazine by Chris DeRose. And obviously the rest can be found in our show notes. Back to the story. So in the documentary, Juan sheepishly admits that he actually bought his mother those tickets for the Dodger game, knowing that she wouldn't wanna go. And we give them back to him, which like, hi. You know, I have to go to a Dodger game coming up soon.

And I'm like, I'm fucking gripping, girl. And Vince is so excited for me to go, but I'm like gripping, but I'm gonna do it. You have been spending a lot of time at Dodger Stadium lately. Yeah, I think like 10 years in, Vince is finally showing me what kind of sports fan he actually is.

Yeah. And I love it. He's unmasking. Yeah, he is. The true baseball fan that he is. I love it. That's really funny. I feel like we've all done that.

We got my mom, it was probably 1986. We got my mom a little mini boom box that was pink and had double tape players. You know, her favorite. Her favorite, so you could record one tape off the other. Amazing. And we're like, here you go, mom. And I think we took it back like two days later.

Totally. It was ours. Absolutely. So yeah, so she did give the tickets back to him, which is like so funny. So Todd, the lawyer, meanwhile, tells Alma to look for those baseball tickets. Like when have you ever saved baseball tickets? I mean, unless something amazing happened. Right. So Todd tells Alma to look for their fucking tickets. It was against the Atlanta

Braves. Does that mean anything to anyone? It was like two months earlier and she actually finds the tickets. Which are like, oh, thank God. But still, it's not enough to prove that it was Juan who had used them, all right? They're immediately like, we don't care, the fucking DA, you know? He had gotten the tickets through an acquaintance and had only used cash when he was at the game, hopefully to buy hot dogs. So Todd says we need more information to prove that Juan had been at the game at the time of Martha's murder. Like, they happened at the same time.

So while all this is going on, it becomes clear that the prosecutors are going to recommend the death penalty. Like they're going all the way. Juan is transferred back and forth between the LA County jail and a super max facility. And this is for his own safety because Martha was 16. She had been a child victim and inmates in county knew about it. And so, of course, you know, he's terrified. He's homesick. He misses his children and Alma.

He says, quote, You hear these stories of people being exonerated 25, 30 years later. And that would play in my head over and over again. Like he thought he was there for good. But then the death penalty gets brought up. During one of his hearings, his six-year-old daughter testifies that they were at the game together. And Juan breaks down because of how much he misses her and how hard it is to see her on the stand having to do that little baby. A little baby. A baby.

He's like, I was there with my daddy. Yeah. Todd promises Juan that he's going to get him out. So Todd gets in touch with the general counsel for the Dodgers. At every turn in this case, the thing that makes a difference in this case is that Juan has a good lawyer. Ooh. And does things for him, the kind of lawyer who has the time, resources, and connections

to do things like get in touch with the lawyer for the Dodgers and ask for a favor. What you should get when you get a public defender who has a million cases to deal with and who knows what on their plate already. Right. Yeah. Is being underpaid and doesn't have the time to look into each case that deeply. Because every day people are arrested based on faulty eyewitness testimony, as we fucking know.

It's terrible. It's terrible evidence. And are tried, found guilty, and in some states executed for crimes they didn't commit based only on eyewitness testimony. You probably don't know this, Hafian, but I would say probably on average it's mostly brown and black people. Right, I'm sure. So under other circumstances, Juan could easily have become one of these people. They had the evidence they needed, period. But luckily Todd doesn't stop working.

He gets the videotape of that night's Dodger vision, the footage of the crowd that played on the Jumbotron during the game. I've never been on it. Someday. I hope not. And he actually finds Juan on the Dodger Vision tape right in the section that's printed on those tickets. Thank fucking God they found those tickets. But their resolution on the image isn't good enough. That isn't even fucking good enough

because it could be anyone. And it's not clear enough of Juan to be completely convincing. Which is like, shit dude. But something sticks in Todd the lawyer's mind. When they first figured out that he had been at the baseball game, Juan remembers the game in great detail. It was a tie game at the top of the ninth inning, and then the Braves scored several

runs, getting a lead on the Dodgers that the Dodgers couldn't come back from. I don't know. But Juan remembers something else. In addition to the regular DodgerVision cameras, he thinks a production had been filming in the stadium that day and in his section, because he remembers seeing Super Dave Osborne. If he hadn't known who Super Dave Osborne was, which is like kind of rare, you know what I mean? Yeah, you have to be for a certain generation. You have to be early days letterman, staying up late, watching that letterman.

Like the number of just lucky breaks. So just so anyone who doesn't know, Super Dave Osborne is a character created by the comedian, Bob Einstein. He's a delusional and not very good stuntman who attempts daring feats and always gets comically injured. Bob Einstein has appeared on various shows as this character since the 70s, but of course we all know him more so as Marty Funkhouser from Curb Your Enthusiasm. Oh, I thought you were going to say, because I actually know him from Arrested Development, he's the guy that's the surrogate,

where he stands there repeating what the dad is saying in the other room. As the father figure. Yes, but he's like doing it, because he has this voice, kind of like this. So there's not a lot of affect to it. And he's very, very tall. I definitely know him from Curb Your Enthusiasm. I forgot he was in Arrested Development. Yeah.

And he's also, sorry, one last thing. Yeah, yeah. Super Dave Osborne and Albert Brooks are brothers. Shut the f- How is- That doesn't- Why could that- Alejandro, double check. How does that add up? Am I right about that? Yeah, one of Brooks' brothers, Bob Einstein.

Yeah. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So Todd goes back to the Dodgers when he finds out that like random piece of trivia. They have a media relations department that handles productions shot in the ballpark. And shout out to Callie who's a listener who I met at Dodger Stadium. She works for them. She's the fucking coolest. I met her at a Dodger show. A Dodger show? Is that what they

call it? Yeah, they have some great shows. Those great shows. Kickoffs at 7. So the woman in the media relations office has a log book. And Todd goes over to fucking Dodger Stadium, stands with her, and they flip through page after page of just a blank notebook. It's very rare for productions to use a stadium during games or be allowed to. It's like not a thing.

But on the page for May 12th, there is an entry. It has the nondescript name of a production company and a phone number. And when Todd calls the number, the person who picks up is at HBO. I kind of gave it away when I said, but he's from Curb Your Enthusiasm, didn't I? Yeah, but still, this is such a good story. You kind of can't. We all know. You can't give it away. So Todd learns that Juan was totally right.

Bob Einstein had been at the game, not playing Super Dave Osborne, but Marty Funkhausen, for an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. The episode that had been shooting that night is a episode called Carpool Lane. In it, Larry David, it's a fucking classic, is stuck in traffic trying to get to a baseball game. He picks up a sex worker to basically allow him

to drive in the carpool lane. Absolutely. Classic. I mean, that Larry David, what won't he do? So Larry's seats turn out to be terrible. He sees Marty Funkhouser, and he's like, can I come down there and let me talk, you know, goes to talk to him.

And those scenes are shot in one section. Like what are the, they could have been shot anywhere in the park. It's a huge baseball, guys, baseball stadiums are huge. Here's breaking news on my favorite murder. And here's another fucking thing. And those scenes, a production assistant, he's getting paid what?

What do production assistants get paid? I'm like, not a lot. $11 an hour? Yeah. He is stationed at the top of the aisle and he's holding back fans who paid their fucking money to sit in their seats. But he's like, stay here for a minute, holding them back so they won't get in the way of the shot.

And so Juan remembers that he and his daughter had to wait there before a PA decided to let them through. It was kind of like when the shot wasn't being filmed, he allowed people to go to their seats that they had paid for. Sorry. In LA, you get real annoyed eventually that they're just shooting wherever you want to get coffee. They shoot all the time.

You're just wanting to get coffee at Black Elephant, and they're shooting there. I can't tell you how many TV shows I've written on where they're like, and then we'll just go ask people. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, the paperwork is insane. And also, once you get out there, every person you try to talk to works in the business and doesn't care and doesn't want to talk to you. Well, let's shut down the sidewalk. Well, I'm trying to walk my dog.

I don't want to be in your fucking show either, but it's my neighborhood and you won't let me walk my dog. Yeah. And now it's people doing TikToks and there's no restraint. It's not cool. Everybody interviewing everybody. Exactly. So then they get on the phone and the production company tells Todd that they won't release the footage of that night, you know, the extra footage until the episode airs, which would be in months from now. They're like, we can't just like give you this shit. Like the episode doesn't come out yet. Yes, you know, the extra footage until the episode airs, which would be in months from now. They're like, we can't just like give you this shit. Like the episode doesn't come

out yet. Yes, you fucking can. Right. So Todd tells them it's for his client that is facing the death penalty. The man on the phone tells Todd to hold on a minute. And when he gets back on the phone, he says, quote, Larry says we can show you the footage. That's right, Larry David. Finally, a good decision from you. Surely. Fuckin the next day. And I have to think it's in Burbank, like next door to exactly right media, right? Like you know it is. The next day, Todd is in an editing room viewing the

tapes. Larry David and the other members of the crew are in the room too. Wow. Because they're all like, this is fucking insane. I want to know what happens. On the first few tapes they look at one is nowhere to be seen want to know what happens. On the first few tapes, they look at Juan as nowhere to be seen, but then it happens. And this footage is in the documentary, Long Shot. Larry David is walking up the ramp, away from the field, having been rejected by Marty Funkhouser, and Juan and his daughter

walk into the frame, coming from the opposite direction, blocking Larry for a moment. Good. The star blocking him. Then turned to the side to go to their seats and their faces are clearly visible. I knew this story and I am so relieved right now. I know. What are the chances?

Also, can you imagine them all in some sort of like an edit post house? So the room is small and very carpeted. And probably what, eight people, they must have screamed. Everyone in the editing bay cheers. Larry David says, quote, I'll be damned. Holy shit. I know. Like this is some sliding door shit.

This is some like they knew each other in a past life shit because. Yeah.. So in the documentary Longshot, the producers show the footage to the production assistant who had let Juan and his daughter into the shot. Remember the guy who was like supposed to be doing it when they weren't shooting? His eyes filled with tears as he realizes he inadvertently saved Juan's life. He says, quote, I probably didn't even know that we were rolling the camera. And if I did, I probably didn't even know that we were rolling the camera and if I did I was probably a shitty PA and let them through anyway. End quote. Please write in your hometown PA. Oh yeah. Because you know he's like a director now

probably. Yeah exactly. And that PA is Ryan Reynolds. Oh Jesus. And he's promoting his new movie. Something something. Okay. There were initially some issues with the timeframe I won't get into, but luckily also on his way out of the stadium, Juan called Alma and the call pinged a cell phone tower next to Dodger Stadium at 10, 11 p.m., which made it impossible for Juan to be at the scene of the crime to murder Martha.

So Juan's preliminary hearing still starts on December of 2004. It's like the preliminary, I don't know, the LA County prosecutor has never lost a murder case. Her name is Beth Silverman and her nickname is the Sniper. But Todd completely dismantles her case. Juan's six-year-old daughter again testifies as do the two friends who went to the game with them. The footage from Curb Your Enthusiasm proves they weren't lying and the call from Juan's cell phone at 10

11 p.m. proves he was still there at the time one of the witnesses had seen Martha's killer circling the block. In his closing argument, Todd says, quote, I think it's unconscionable the district attorney's office has proceeded on this case with the evidence they have presented. This man would be facing the death penalty if he hadn't by the grace of God gotten Dodger tickets from someone the day before and invited these people and got caught on video from that HBO show. He's a lucky man." End quote.

Like the series of fucking moments. The judge dismisses the case and the courtroom bursts into applause. Oh, is that a situation, and please write in, judge, if you know, is that a situation where he can dismiss the case with prejudice or something like that? This is overruled. Forever. Something sexy. The story, of course, has a happy ending for Juan, but it does start out with a 16-year-old girl being killed. So, like, let's not forget about

that. And it turns out that the detectives assigned to her murder could have actually easily figured out who had killed her in the first place without bringing Juan down. Mario, the brother's co-defendant in the original murder case, Jose Ladesma, was shown a photo array with his face circled again, just like Juan's was. And the detectives, the same ones who would later arrest Juan, told him that Martha had circled his photo, and the police were lying both times

about that circling of the photos, which they are allowed, they can do by law. Right. Jose called a friend from jail and ordered Martha's murder, thinking that she was an eyewitness. This call was recorded, but the detectives never listened to the recording. And this was five months before Martha was killed and eight months before Juan was arrested for this murder.

So they could have prevented her murder? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. After she was killed, police were given Juan's name by another member of the Vineland Boys who had just been arrested and it was a clear attempt to negotiate using bad information. So Juan just kind of got caught up in it all. The eyewitness to Martha's murder never gave a description that came anything close to

fitting Juan, but police stretched the information to try to make it fit once his name had been dropped. They're like, that's him, let's make it him kind of a thing, which we've seen so many times. Yeah. Eventually, the FBI will arrest the men responsible for Martha's murder in a larger operation against the Vineland boys. And those two detectives that were on the case originally are taken off homicide cases. That's a fucking story for another time. Yeah, really. Beth Silverman, the sniper,

the LA County prosecutor, refuses to let Juan's original drug charge go. Remember originally it was for, it's like how he became under the radar. Refuses to give him credit for the six months he served in jail for a crime he didn't commit. And she only settles the case once one agrees to spend two more weeks in jail. Can you fucking imagine being exonerated so powerfully? It sounds like that the sniper isn't really out there aiming to protect and serve the community. Justice doesn't sound like it's to protect and serve the community. Justice doesn't sound like it's part of the equation for sure. Fuck man.

Yeah. Also, so he spent all that time in jail as an innocent man and she's trying to say, you still owe me two weeks when it's like, no bitch, you owe me six months. Yeah, totally. Well after he gets out though, Juan sues the city of Los Angeles and gets $320,000 as a settlement, which is like not going to cover the trauma that you've gone through, you know? No.

Especially in LA because shit's not cheap here. Hopefully it's... Yeah. God damn. Yeah. So Juan and Todd, the lawyer, are minor celebrities now. They're still great friends. I mean, how can you not be? Todd says, quote, we go to Dodger games and people go fricking nuts, end quotes, which I'm going to be looking for them next time I'm going and I will hug them both.

Oh, I didn't expect that. You're going to cry. You're going to cry. Well, that's just because like... It's beautiful. It's big picture. It's like, whoever you are, the DA or those detectives or whatever, don't you want to be on that side of things? And the people who go nuts when they see them know what it's like to be in those positions.

Yes. And the fact that Todd helped to get him out of that is like a beautiful fucking thing. And of course, she'd be like, thank you, even though it has something to do with you. It's like, I get it. Thank you. Everyone can talk about how the system is fucked and corrupted,

and they're right, and they experienced it. There are people trying to do good. So the opportunity to cheer for a person who actually did it is amazing. To be underrepresented and to find someone who's fucking representing you either way and actually cares has to feel incredible. Should we donate $10,000 to Larry David? He needs it.

He absolutely needs it. Oh my God. Or to HBO even. Yeah, let's. Or to HBO, even. Yeah, let's get to HBO. And that is a story of Juan Catalan, who could have been one of the thousands of people who are wrongfully convicted and put on death row, were it not for Juan and Alma's incredible memories, Todd's determination, and a fucking episode of curb your enthusiasm. That's insane. What the fuck? Oh, I know.

I told you we were on the same road, but it was like a... You know what? Perfectly paired. Alejandra, perfectly paired. Alejandra's all about that pairing. I was like, there's no way. I know, and I was also like, I don't know if this is the one that's like going to pair with this, because usually it's like an uplifting thing of a hero. But like, this also is.

This also is. It's terrible of like a 16-year-old girl getting murdered. And it's awful. And also it's that thing of, you can understand why when a 16-year-old girl gets murdered, because she's not supposed to testify or, you know, all it's like now we're gonna teach everybody a lesson and that energy going out of like that's this merciless you will pay death squad bullshit it has gotten us to where we are. So amazing that it's something different than that. This episode.

You must have known. You must have known it wasn't going to be good and probably was going to be very, very terrible. When you clicked on my favorite murder, like who? Look, many people disagree with our saucy and trite naming of this podcast back in 2016. And we agree with them. We agree. But also, wasn't this your favorite?

I mean, I honestly think your story might be one of my favorites ever. Shut the fuck up. Yours too. The way you did it. I couldn't have done it the way you did it. I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it.

It's just that thing. How do we talk about the worst things there are? How do we talk about the worst things there are? I don't know. Wrong, I guess. Incorrectly. I did the thing again recently that I have to do on a regular basis of telling someone that yes, it's a true crime comedy podcast, you know, who's never listened, but no, it's not comedy about the fucking worst thing that has ever happened to a person and to their

family. It's not that. It's that we are so anxious and have so much fear and are so horrified by life and the only way we can do it is by putting fucking gummy bears in a fucking bowl afterwards. We need the butler of comedy standing by after the mess of true crime. The spilled wine glass of true crime ruins the carpet. Yeah. We don't have to explain to the people listening to this podcast what we're doing. If they've gone to this point, they fucking know and they're with us. If they have been listening for eight and a half years, which I think some of them have.

I just meant this episode, but yes. Which has felt like eight and a half years, for sure. Let's do a couple really quick ending, like let's not make this the worst by ending on you telling us hashtag what you're even doing right now. This is one of my favorite things. Somehow we asked people what they're even doing right now. Basically, what do you do while you listen to the podcast? And then people just basically send us in these beautiful little portraits of their lives as they listen.

It's so lovely. Thank you guys for sending them. We'll, let's read a couple. This is from our Gmail. And it starts, what am I even doing right now? Taking inventory at my ice cream shop. Ooh. I worked at a classic Jersey Shore ice cream shop for seven summers through high school, college, and even a bit beyond when I was putting off my real job.

Last summer, a fellow scooper and I bought it and reopened it after it had closed. Oh my God. The people of our small beach town that had been coming here for more than 40 years were thrilled that it was back. And now I get to be the cool boss for other teenagers who get to do what is truly the world's most fun summer job.

We are on summer number two, and it's as fun and delicious as I remember. Even though we just ran out of campfire s'mores, dreams really do come true. Stay sexy and never stop scooping, Meg. Meg, did you actually not put the name of your ice cream shop in? What the living hell?

It's in Jersey Shore. It's fucking an old ice cream shop. Meg's ice cream shop. what the living hell? It's in Jersey Shore. It's fucking an old ice cream shop. Meg's ice cream shop. What's the cause? Maybe they needed the same thing. Scoopers. I don't know. Scoops. Oh Meg. How fucking cool is that? You just missed a marketing opportunity of a lifetime, Meg.

But that's how cool Meg is. She was like, that's not what this is for. I'm not trying to. Yeah. But still. Like I almost maybe like we wouldn't have been picked if she had been like here's my scooper stock you know but we're not immune to that. People from New Jersey. Yeah. Stop doing what you normally do for a second and go down to the shore and get some ice cream and figure out Meg's shop and support it please. They're so shy these people from Jersey. These dirty jurrs. What am I even doing right now? This is from the Gmail inbox.

I'm sitting in the living room of the 103-year-old house my partner and I just bought, and in parentheses it says the millennial dream, hand sewing a drag costume made up of plastic wrap, bubble wrap, and fishing line. The rules for this competition were unconventional material, girl, and I am reusing all of the bullshit lying around after unpacking. Oh my God. So they're making a drag costume

out of basically the garbage that drives you insane after you unpack. I couldn't make a drag outfit out of the best fucking textiles that existed. No. Okay, go on. Well, it just wraps up with drag is not a crime. It is an art form, but you already knew that.

Yeah. Stay sexy and support your local drag kings, queens, and in-betweens, M. Lucifer Morningwood, they them. M, why didn't you plug your drag show? Like you guys, you gotta plug your shit. We're here for it. Wait, you guys, I found the ice cream shop. Yes! It's called caboodles

Thank you Alejandra great job, oh my god, that was incredible how you become a producer for my You go to Dodger Stadium. You look for the footage. That is what she just did for us beyond You look for the footage. That is what she just did for us. Above and beyond. High level producing. Yeah. Good job, everybody. Good job, everyone.

We did something. We really did. And see, now we get to feel like this at the end, even though it didn't start this way. It didn't. We go through. We chug through. Sludge.

We lock arms. And we look up at the horizon. And we say, fuck it. And then we say. Stay sexy. And then we say, stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.

Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to MyFavoriteMurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder and Twitter at MyFaveMurder. Goodbye.