My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 444 - Started In The Middle

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

This week, Karen covers the murders of Sian O’Callaghan and Becky Godden-Edwards and Georgia covers the “Third Man Syndrome.” For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get up to $1,800 in value when you apply for the CIBC Aventura Visa for Business at cibc.com slash Aventura Business. Terms and conditions apply. Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia hard start. That's Karen Kilgarafe. That's the listener. Hi, you guys. Ding dong. Listener, you might enjoy this little anecdote from us being in the office, us getting here.

It's a summer Friday, so most people don't have to be here past noon, which it is. I walked in. I'll just tell my side of the story. I walked in, I needed a brush. Of course I don't have one in my purse. I ran to my office to see if I did. And as I ran to my office, I passed a big box of donuts. I saw it immediately. So I went in, there was a half of a beautiful classic glazed donut, and I picked it up and I took a bite and then I

was like, it's such a living alone type of thing where I was like, I was going to just toss it back in the bowl, just take a bite and be like, well, that's all I want. And instead I was like, well, I guess I'll just eat the rest of this. So I did that, got myself a cup of coffee, came in here to the studio, sat down, and I was like, man, those donuts are good. And you said? I think you ate the half that I just cut. We shared a donut without even knowing it. We spiritually and psychically shared that donut.

Because you know what was hard about it? So it was like the dregs of the donuts, because people have been here earlier in the day, right? So it was like clearly had been a big, huge thing of donuts. But there was one in it that was, is my favorite donut in the world. Which one? A jelly filled.

Oh, yeah. And I was like, can't do that. I'll fucking just peek on this podcast and have a sugar crash. It's what we're looking for. That's true. Well, I'm having an Americano, so let's do that instead. So I just had a little dainty bit of the fucking plain one. You know, you just got to deprive yourself of things you love.

Donuts, a donut, I don't know. You've got to deprive yourself of things you love so that you can be more miserable. Yes, that's what I learned in the 80s, in my childhood. It's God forbid. I think donuts were always the example used when diet books were talking about dieting or people or women were talking about what they can't have or whatever. And I think that's probably the main reason why I was like I'm certainly not hungry. Yeah. But I'm absolutely going to put that in my mouth. And I had just been like you should eat less sugar to myself but it's

like why not have one like this moment in life that is so lovely and wonderful. Yeah because a piano could fall on you the second you leave the studio. This is a cartoon. A piano. A fucking anvil. Any fucking thing. A coyote chasing a roadrunner. A coyote could chase me off the fucking cliff that I'm always on. Threw a hole in the parking lot. You know. So I have a couple of follow-ups from last week's episode.

Okay. There's a lot going on. So last week I did a story about the 1916 New Jersey shark attacks, which is a crazy story. And the whole time George and I discussed whether or not we'd already done this story. And it happens to us a lot because we've been doing this for almost nine years. For over 400 episodes. And that doesn't even include the episodes we haven't

posted that were live or that just were so bad we just didn't post. Yeah. There's a couple of those. Yeah, yeah. We should definitely post those at some point. So this one, we were both saying, oh no, I remember this part. Yeah. I remember this part. Well, our great staff headed up by Alejandro Keck, they found out that the reason that we thought that I did it is

because I did it, but it was on a live episode of the podcast The Dollop. That's right. With Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds. So I did do it. You covered it? I thought they read us a story. Were we both there? Yeah. I'm sorry. Oh yeah, that was the one downtown.

No, it was downtown or was it the one right by the Beverly Center? Remember that yeah, that was the one downtown. No, it was the, was it downtown or was it the one like right by the Beverly Center? Remember that one? That was the Podfest. The hotel? That was our first live show ever. And that was Podfest and Dave was our guest. Okay, you're right. Yes, there was the fest downtown that they read to us.

I don't know if it was the fest. It was their live show for sure. That's all I know. It was from live from the Los Angeles Podcast Festival. It was, you're right. So yes, you win this one. I'll take it. I'll fucking give me that donut now.

But it's so hilarious because it was 2016. We did their live show with them the year we started. And that's why it was so like real but also confusing. I want to congratulate everyone on Instagram who was also like, yeah, you guys did this with the dollop, how do you not remember? And it's like, how do you remember? I don't remember anything about my life. So those are like day ones.

The day ones that are just like, why can't you track your own reality? Because it's insane. Because this is the most insane timeline, you guys. Yeah. This timeline is out of control. I found some old videos on my computer. I was trying to clean out, what are they called? Folders.

Your cash? Yes. And there are all these videos of me that I made of Elvis in the old apartment where we fucking started. It's just these little things. And then I was thinking, we just got a new refrigerator, which is like our first refrigerator that we bought. And I was thinking about, in got a new refrigerator, which is like our first refrigerator that we've bought. And like, I was thinking about, in that Hollywood apartment where we started the podcast in

2016, my hand-me-down refrigerator, the door where you put the condiments, was held together with bungee cord that I had gotten from the 99-cent store. And now I have an ice maker in my fridge, which to me is like, you know. Super rich. That's your fucking, you made it and you're in Orange County. Congratulations. You made it all the way back to Orange County. Yes. So that's why we can't remember anything.

That's right. We started back then doing that, but it's essentially like doing the same thing over and over for eight and a half years. We started in the middle, now we're here. So go listen to the dollop if you've never listened to it because it's insane. They're great. They're going strong. So good. And then we, you thought to make a nice donation to the World Wildlife Fund and they have a podcast, it turns out. And the host of the podcast who works there, I guess, I'm assuming.

Yep, Seth Larson. Gave us a nice shout out. And I think they're going to give us shirts. I think so too. It's so nice. Their podcast is called Nature Breaking. So you should totally check that out as well. And thank you to them for the lovely shout out. I mean, we're making friends all the fuck over the place. Hey, Carp! Pandas!

What? Fucking Seth Larson. Like, whom else do we need? Who else is out there? Do you have anything personal you want to talk about? Yeah. Ice makers? I'm really upset because...

Oh, wait a second. That's funny. The other day I went to get ice out of my ice maker in my freezer and it wasn't the right shape. So usually mine are the standard cubes that you've seen always. Suddenly there were cylindrical cubes. Did you press something on your refrigerator? Oh, I was racking my brain.

Is there an app? I had a party and so people brought bag ice from the outside and put it in my little tray. I didn't even think you could do that. Yeah. And so I was like, what the f—? I was like, who is f—ing with me? It was like, what the fuck? I was like, who is fucking with me? It was like outstanding there. That's like a small fucking with you that would like the little things people do. Yeah.

Like, like in Barry when he's like, I'll trade her dog for a dog that looks exactly the same. That, like little things to fuck with people. Yes, vicious. Actually vicious. So I was kind of scared for three seconds and then I was like, I realized like, I realized like you had people over and you asked someone to bring a bag of ice. That's what actually happened you fucking weirdo. If you want to be the star of the party, bring a bag of ice. Everyone needs a bag of ice. Bring it or a dozen donuts. People are so happy.

Also just text your friend, ask if they want you to come early to help. Yes. Because Not if you're not that close with them, though. No, no, don't be a weirdo. But if it's your friend, you make that offer. They don't have to pick up on that offer, but they love you even more.

Yeah. You don't even have to do anything. They're going to say no. It's cool. They're going to say no, especially if they're like a fiercely independent borderline something's wrong with her type of person. It's all for show.

It's all for show. It's all for show. It's all for show because we're videoing this right now. Okay. Should we do Exactly Right highlights? Sure. Hey, we have a podcast network even. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights of the wonderful podcasts we have on the network. So this week on Lady to Lady, the gals are joined by comedian and former Vanderpump Rules star Billy Lee. Hell yes.

Please tell us everything. And Erin and Erin are back with a new episode of This Podcast Will Kill You. This time they're explaining everything you need to know about the dreaded norovirus. Amazing. Also actor Jim O'Hare, who's famous for playing Jerry Gergich on Parks and Recreation, is Bridger's guest this week on I Said No Gifts. JGJ. Jerry.

And also, this is your reminder right now, hi, that episode nine of Rewind with Karen and Georgia, so episode nine of My Favorite Murder, and then we add commentary, can you imagine? It's called Rewind, Recap. Yeah. It's available now wherever you get your podcasts. Every Wednesday, we're revisiting our earliest episodes and providing case updates, reflecting on everything that's changed, like refrigerators.

It's fucking fascinating content, okay? You wouldn't believe the refrigerator content that you are guaranteed if you go back and listen to those. That's right. And so much more. So please listen and subscribe to My Favorite Murderer, if you could. Yes, subscription. That is a part that like it took me a long time to get.

And I am in the podcast business. But when you're listening to podcasts, if you go up and hit that plus sign or wherever it says subscribe, if you do it, it is very, very helpful to the podcast that you love. So whatever podcast you're trying to support, that and reviewing is the best way to do it. And a little couple stars, it's just a one-time thing. Everyone who's in the podcast industry will thank you for it. Give five stars, who cares? I mean, seriously.

It's not like you're recommending something. It's not like you're going to be kind of maybe. It's not like, either you're in or you're out. You're in or out. Come on. Yeah. Also, you must absolutely head to youtube.com slash exactly right media so you can check out the newest episode of My Favorite Murder animated by our best friend Nick Terry. Still going strong after all this time.

Jesus. Love him. This one is Look for a Goth. It's so beautiful. It's from Minisode 368. Go watch it. It's so good. It features teenage Georgia.

That's right. And a belly shirt and a collar. It's like, it means so much to me. Yeah, Georgia gets shown in her true, who she is inside, her true spirit. But then also it teaches your children how to stay safe in the world. Look for a goth. Ooh, should we make a look for a goth merch? Absolutely.

Look for a goth. And it should be binoculars. It should be binoculars with a ton of eyeliner. What if it's like a stop sign or like a parking sign but it says look for a goth? Like it looks like the city is telling you to do it. Yeah. It's like a telling you to do it. Lost? Look for a goth. Almost like a yield shape, like a triangle. Look for a goth and maybe a weird eye in the middle of it.

Yeah. A goth eye with a winged liner. And two piercings. Two piercings. On the eye. God, this is how great merch is made. I think we should record at 1 o'clock every fucking time. The energy I have right now that we usually don't have, because we're recording early for Labor Day,

we usually record at 5 o'clock on a fucking Monday. What is that? 1 o'clock on a Friday is the best you've ever felt in your life. You cannot keep yelling at me like this. That's how excited, oh I had the donut in the coffee. It's the donut. I told you, I told you. Can you imagine if I had a whole one?

We can have donuts at five o'clock on Fridays if we want. It's also the prescribed adderall, but let's not. Look, there's all different kinds of donuts in this world. Choose your donut. Choose your donut. Choose your donut. Have you ever been out at a restaurant and realized that your entire self-worth hinges on whether or not the server approves of what you order?

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a cat in my lap. Like I highly recommend that actually. Can't go back. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace. When you go to Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code space 80. To match with a licensed therapist today go to Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code SPACE80. You'll get $80 off your first month and show support for our show. That's Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code space 80. Karen here's the problem with dinner. Oh, we're getting right into it? Yes, you can spend all day making a beautiful meal, buying groceries, prepping, and cooking. By the end of the night, all your hard work is gone and you have to

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All right, I go first this week? You do. You're agreeing and shaking your head no? I don't know why I shook my head no. Okay, so this story was suggested by a listener named Ellie, and she said, Hi, my favorite murder gang. I wanted to suggest a story. I don't think you've covered this before.

She goes in, basically recaps the whole story, then says there's an amazing ITV drama called The Confession about this story, and the lead detective wrote a book called Catching a Serial Killer. It's a fascinating story about the human slash police responsibility, and basically I thought it would be fascinating to cover this case, so I thought I'd write in Ellie emoji with the little sweet rosy cheeks, smiley face. So Ellie, thank you for that suggestion. It was a great suggestion. And I actually saw the ITV drama.

It sounds so familiar. But I love that we're doing a classic. Just straight up true crime. It's what we do. It's kind of our thing. So this takes place on March 11, 2011 in Swindon, Wiltshire in southwest England. It's a Saturday night. A 22-year-old woman named Sean O'Callaghan is headed out for the evening.

Sean's mother, Elaine Pickford, describes her daughter as, quote, always smiling from a very young age, a very happy person, radiant. Sean has a ton of friends. Tonight, she's out with a group of them at a local club called Suju. And like all of us who go out on Saturday nights, Sean is at Suju until the early morning hours. I like to loop myself in with those people.

That's so you, Karen. I was just thinking, that's so you. Inside, I'm 27, and so I'm repping for her. You are, and you're like like where's the after party? Yeah. So, Sean's there with her friends. She stays out late. She only lives a half a mile from the club and she lives with her boyfriend, Kevin Reap,

in an apartment that they had moved into together about two months prior. So Kevin's also out with his friends that night. So around 1.30 in the morning, Sean sends Kevin a text that says, quote, where are you? It's unclear if Sean was hoping to get picked up or to have him meet her or anything. But Kevin was actually at home asleep when that text went through, so he didn't get it and of course he didn't answer right away. Around 2 a.m., Sean decides she's going to walk the short distance home. She won't be seen alive again. This is the story of the police investigation into Sean O'Callaghan's disappearance,

the dangers women face being alone in public spaces, and the unveiling of an unexpected killer. So the main sources used today are an ITV News documentary called A Confession, as told by ITV News, multiple articles by Stephen Morris. What? Mm-hmm. Where's that middle name? Stephen Morris writes for The Guardian newspaper, but he also does podcasting. His brother, his brother Stephen Ray Morris.

That's right. And then also a 2012 sentencing document from the Judiciary of England and Wales. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, we'll just pick right back up. It's now 3.24 in the morning. Kevin Reap wakes up and he notices his girlfriend, Sean, still isn't home. He looks at his phone.

He finally sees that text that she sent him. So, he writes back immediately, because she wrote, where are you? He writes back, in bed, where are you? She does not reply. At first, Kevin assumes that Sean's having fun on her night out, but with every hour that passes and she isn't home, he's getting a sinking feeling that gets worse and worse. He starts calling around, and when she's not home by 9 a.m., he finally decides to call

her family. Oh, so Sean's mama Lane remembers that, quote, Kevin had already phoned around hospitals and informed the police. At that time, I thought it was a bit of an overreaction and that she'd probably just crashed at a friend's house. But when the family's unable to track her down, the gravity of the situation sets in. By 9 45 in the morning, Shawna's officially reported missing. Fortunately, the Wiltshire police respond swiftly.

Dozens of officers join the search immediately, and they're led by Detective Superintendent Steve Fulcher, who's a respected senior officer, and they all react with urgency and care. So very nice that we are not saying the thing we usually say at this point of a missing persons or some this kind of situation, which is like they didn't come and when they did they said she's a runway or something. That's happened a lot and seems like it's hopefully changing, but who knows. Every hour that passes is torture for Sean's family. Elaine says, quote, my mind was all over the place. I remember lying in the dark, unable to sleep,

just staring at the ceiling until the birds started singing. I can't even imagine. So now it's March 20th, a massive team of police officers are conducting an extensive search in the Savarnak Forest, which is about 15 miles from Swindon. It's a vast area. It spans a 4,500 acres.

And the police, the next day, they reveal why that's where they were searching. Yeah, I was wondering. Sean's cell phone pinged a nearby tower the night she went missing. So, cell records show her phone continued receiving calls and text messages in the area for 12 hours until the battery died.

Shit. So, by March 22nd, hundreds of volunteers have joined the police as they continue searching the Savarnak Forest. That day, an anonymous donor posts a 20,000 pound reward for information that could help locate Sean, and that amount is soon doubled to 40,000 pounds. That's the equivalent of $80,000 in U.S. dollars. So people were really generous and really trying to solve this problem. Yeah.

Across the entire region, missing posters with Sean's face printed on them go up in shop windows and on cars. A vigil is held. Hundreds of people attend the vigil, and a Facebook group devoted to finding Sean amasses tens of thousands of members in no time. Everyone's desperately trying and doing everything they can to see Sean come home.

As most of us know, the reality when someone is missing is that with every passing hour, the likelihood of finding that person alive gets less and less likely. But Detector Steve Fulcher keeps working with his same initial urgency, and later he'll say, quote, my fear was she could be dead, but I hoped she was alive. My duty was clear, to work to find and protect Sean if I could. It's what any parent would have wanted a police officer to do for Sean. Wow. So, Fulcher and his team do feel like they're getting somewhere because they've been piecing

together Sean's last footsteps using the CCTV footage from the area she was last seen walking. And in this footage, they see a green Toyota taxi, which has the name of a cab company written on it. So the first time this cab is caught on camera, it drives past Sean. Then the driver turns around and approaches her a second time. The car is now facing the security camera that captured the whole scene, and the next few moments they can't see because the car's headlights white out the footage. Oh, shit.

When the cab drives away and the image gets clearer, Shawn is no longer on the sidewalk. Oh, my God. That's so chilling. Yeah. So, Fulcher and his crew immediately get to work tracking this cab down, and of course the cab's driver. In the CCTV footage, they notice that a police car drives past the cab. So they comb through the data captured by what's called on a police car, ANPR cameras. And they automatically capture the registration number of passing cars. Shit.

Mm-hmm. So now they have the name associated with that cab. It's Christopher Hallowell. Christopher Hallowell is a 47-year-old local cabbie, a divorced father of three with a criminal record. He served a stint in prison back in the mid-'80s for burglary. But Hallowell has never been convicted of any violent or sexual offenses. Still, Detective Fulcher believes Hallowell is who he needs to speak to next, obviously. So officers start tailing Hallowell. He's seen cleaning the backseat of his cab and throwing away a headrest and seat covers. I mean, right there, you'd just slam your hand on the desk and be like, this is

the guy. Right. Arrest him immediately. So, once he throws those away, officers go and pick him right up. Nice. Later the same day, investigators follow Halliwell as he heads to the Suju nightclub where he picks up a few missing posters for Sean. For Sean. He be.

Yep. The next day, March 23rd, investigators watch as Hallowell burns two of his car's headrests as well as two pieces of the seats. Why did they let him do that? Well, I'll tell you right now. Under Detective Fulcher's orders, they don't arrest him. It's obvious to Fulcher Hallowell is feeling nervous. He wants to spend a bit more time watching him because he thinks there's a chance that Hallowell could leave them inadvertently to Shawn. Oh, right.

She hasn't been found yet. Right. Okay. So he's, it's basically if she's being held somewhere, it would be best to not spook him, you know. So the plan to keep surveilling Hallowell comes to an abrupt halt on March 24th, which is five days after Sean goes missing, when Halliwell is seen purchasing a, quote, overdose quantity of pills at a supermarket.

So then he's promptly arrested. Meanwhile, his green Toyota cab is parked outside the supermarket, and it has Sean's missing person posters taped up in the back windows. Creepy. It's what they do. I know up in the back windows. Creepy. It's what they do. I know. It's so weird. It is.

Just the mindset. I'll never, thank God, I'll never fucking understand. And also just the, what a cover. It's like when people go and they're like, well then now I'm a pastor of a church. They like find the thing that seems inarguable. Of course we'll never doubt you because you're doing this thing. Right. Or you're getting involved, so you must care a lot.

Right. Yeah. Okay. So, I'll tell you a little bit about Britain's Police and Criminal Evidence Act. It's called the PACE Act. It's a law that governs how police handle suspects during investigations. So, this legislation is meant to protect people from police pressure and coercion and to ensure that their rights are upheld during an investigation. So something

PACE makes very clear is that once a suspect has read their rights, they should be taken straight to a police station for questioning, where they will ideally be joined by their attorney. That said, there are certain times when officers might bend these rules, like when they believe a life is at stake. And this is called using quote, emergency powers. So when Hallowell is picked up at the supermarket, police question him on the spot, not at a police station. And again, those officers can defensively argue that they think Sean could be alive, allowing them to break from those pace requirements. Yeah, they don't know that those pills are for him or her, right? Right.

But Halliwell refuses to say anything without a lawyer. So meanwhile, Detective Fulcher, he isn't present during this arrest, but he's being kept in the loop. He knows what's supposed to happen next. Halliwell should be taken to the police station where he'll be questioned with an attorney present. But Fulcher has this gut feeling that Halliwell is going to shut down in that kind of setting. So Fulcher decides to take a different route.

He tells the officers to drive Halliwell out to a specific remote site where he will meet them so he can look his suspect in the eye and ask him where Sean is directly. Fulcher will later say, quote, On one hand, I'm aware of Mr. Halliwell's rights, but my main priority is to save Sean's life. I had to balance Mr. Halliwell's right to remain silent against Sean O'Callaghan's right to live. In my view, Sean's right to life came first. Yeah.

So at the meeting spot, Fulcher still does not read Halliwell his rights. Instead, he talks to Halliell casually, man to man, and urges him to, quote, do the right thing. Fulcher will later say that he felt an opportunity, which he thought could be fleeting, to get information from Hallowell and describes the suspect as being, quote, on a knife edge. So this tactic ultimately pays off. Hallowell turns to Fulcher and says, quote,

have you got a car? We'll go. So Hallowell is now telling Fulcher where to go as they cross from Swindon into nearby Oxfordshire along the way he confesses. Hallowell tells Detective Fulcher that he murdered Shana Callahan and hid her body in the Savarnak Forest. And when Halliwell heard the news that the investigation was off to a strong start, he got spooked, which is exactly what Fulcher thought would happen. And so he took Sean's body and buried her further away from the murder site in a remote area of Oxfordshire. So now with this confession, Sean is presumed dead and those emergency powers under pace are no longer appropriate.

Oh. Yeah. Her life is not in imminent danger, but Fulcher continues to break protocol. But what if, you know, like what if she's still alive though, you know? Sure. I think that could be argued. Like maybe he's lying, Maybe he doesn't... Maybe she's unconscious but not dead. Like, you know what I mean? Well, you could. You could argue anything, really.

But I think they have to kind of go through logic protocol to be like, there has to be a line where this person's rights are protected. Because this is the problem of the police, where it's like they do not respect those boundaries, and they go all the way into, I own you, I'll hold a gun to your head, I'll do anything I want. Which is how innocent people get put in prison. Yep. Yeah.

The thing is, Fulcher's instincts seem to pay off. Hallowell looks at Fulcher and says, you and me need to have a chat. So the two men step out of Fulcher's car and they move to a nearby bench where they smoke cigarettes together. They get back into the car and Halliwell instructs Fulcher to drive about 15 miles away. And when they get there, they pull over in a secluded spot in Gloucestershire, which Halliwell recognizes because there's a specific dip in this old stone wall running along the road. And there's a large dip in this old stone wall running along the road and there's a large field on the other side of that wall.

Hallowell leads Fulcher into this field methodically counting his steps until he suddenly stops. He points to the ground and reveals that another woman is buried there. Shut the fuck up. Mm-hmm. Oh my God, can you imagine how you, Fulcher or whoever, whoever would have felt in that moment? Yep. I just wonder if he went, oh shit, because I broke this little rule, it's like a little

white lie. Oh. Now he's actually really confessing and what if I can't use any of this? Because you're, he's out of bounds. Yeah. There's got to be other, okay, yeah. Okay. Yeah. You'll hear about bounds. Yeah. There's got to be other. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. You'll hear about it. Okay. He says that basically the woman that's buried there is a sex worker he murdered several years earlier. He claims not to know her name, her age, or what year that took place. After spending four hours with Detective Fulcher, Christopher Halliwell is finally taken back

to the police station where he's connected with a lawyer for the first time and now he refuses to answer any questions. So meanwhile, officers are searching both locations that Hallowell revealed to Fulcher along with the search of Hallowell's house in Swindon. Later that same day, March 24th, 2011, five days after Shawna Callahan went missing, investigators find her remains exactly where Hallowell said they would be. Two days later, on March 26th, a second set of human remains are found in that field in Gloucestershire. And within a few days, forensic analysts are able to identify that victim through DNA.

It's a 20-year-old missing woman named Becky Godden Edwards who was last seen in the early morning hours on January 3rd, 2003, as she got into a cab outside of a Swindon nightclub. 20. Yeah. Oh, my God. And this is a man who technically wouldn't be considered a serial killer because so much time passed between those two murders.

But that's the problem when we decide that a sex worker's disappearance or death doesn't matter. Yeah. And also it pisses me off because, you know, the whole like, well, don't walk home alone and you'll be fine. And it's like, no, no, we won't. It doesn't fucking matter how we get home. It's still fucking treacherous.

Yeah. Get into a cab and you'll be fine. Yeah. You should have taken a cab. No. Right? Like that's why Vince makes me keep in touch with him the whole, my whole Uber ride home when I go out.

Yeah. It's like, you just, impossible to keep yourself safe. Well, and also we just have to stop talking about what women need to do, and we have to start talking about what men need to do. And truly, some of the things that men need to do are like, if you have a friend that's a creep and you witness them being a creep, and you know that their attitudes about women are disgusting, you have to tell other people so that nobody is surprised by that. Totally. Because also it goes on and on like

Men keeping secrets for each other right when it actually the impact is so horrifying Or defending them in a way that's like I've never seen him like that. Yeah, no shit. You wouldn't dummy you fucking yeah Okay, we're and we're back So this makes a tragedy even sadder because when police go to deliver the devastating news to Becky's mom, Karen Edwards, it's April 4th, As a teenager, Becky got involved with people who introduced her to drugs. She left school and her life spiraled. She told me she loved me so much that she couldn't keep putting me through this hell. And she was leaving and wouldn't come back to me until she was clean. I never saw her again.

Oh my God, that poor girl. So for nearly a decade, Karen has held on to the hope that Becky might come back. Every year, she'd buy Becky Christmas gifts, just in case she returned for what was her favorite holiday. And Karen says, quote, Becky was a beautiful, intelligent girl. She was my daughter. She was loved by all her family. So, the entire country grieves the loss of these two young women.

And then in January of 2012, Christopher Hollowell's day in court finally comes. Public outrage is now at a fever pitch. There's crowds gathering outside the courthouse for the preliminary hearing. People are shouting and banging on the police van that brings him in. I mean, people have cared very, very much about this case. Inside the courtroom, Sean's mom, Elaine, is waiting to face her daughter's killer. Elaine says, quote, every day I made sure,

this gets me so bad because she is going through hell and she's trying to scare this guy. So she says, every day I made sure that I sat in the seat closest to him, sometimes no more than a foot away. I wasn't going to let him intimidate me. We made eye contact a few times, but he always ended up looking away. Fuck yeah.

Yeah. Hell yeah. Wow. The fucking chutzpah there. So by now, Hallowell's completely backtracked on both confessions, and now he claims, because you know that lawyer was like, oh yeah, here's how we get out of this. And now he claims that he made the murder duress. On top of that, his defense team argues that everything he said to Detective Fulcher should

be excluded from evidence because Fulcher deliberately ignored PACE rules. The presiding judge agrees and rules Hallowwell's confession is inadmissible in court. Shit. It's a huge setback, but still there's such a strong murder case against Halliwell for Sean's death. I mean there's so much evidence, CCTV footage, those seat parts from the cab, because the police were like on it and waiting and getting that evidence. That's amazing.

And those seat parts eventually were tested and found to have Sean's blood on them. So Sean's case moves forward. The trial is set for 2013. But in October of 2012, Christopher Halliwell decides to plead guilty to Sean O'Callaghan's murder. And with Becky's murder, he pointed it out on his own without any coercion. So it's like kind of not the same thing as, you know what I mean, in my mind? It could be. Yeah.

I mean, but you could use that same kind of logic you used before where it's like, but while they were smoking cigarettes, was he like, I will kill you, I'll kill your family? Right. You could say anything. Yeah. I mean, no one knows that's the problem. And also just the shocking part of it where it's like, we thought we were here for this horrifying thing that you did, but you're going to just, it's all going to come out. So his pleading guilty spares Sean's family from what of course would have

been a grueling trial. And for murdering Sean O'Callaghan, Christopher Halliwell receives a life sentence with a minimum prison term of 25 years. That's the best you get in England and it's a victory. Meanwhile, Becky Godden-Edwards' family still wants justice. But because Halliwell's confession is inadmissible in court, the case for Becky's murder then becomes very weak because that's basically what they had. And there isn't much other evidence for prosecutors to work with.

So most of Detective Steve Fulcher's colleagues herald his police work and his decision-making on this case. They credit him with putting a serious predator and one who no one suspected of being a predator behind bars. Absolutely. A cab-driving predator. But some people, including those close to this case, are split on whether Fulcher's dismissal of PACE rules was justified or not.

Becky's father, John Godden, for example, files a complaint against Fulcher to a British police watchdog group. He says, quote, it becomes common practice, don't it? When you've been in a job for 30 years, that's the first thing you do. Read them their rights, get a solicitor. Becky's mother, Karen, on the other hand, is thankful that Vulture brought the resolution to her daughter's case, even if it means Halliwell's confession can't be presented to a jury. She'll tell reporters, quote, to the day I die, I will always be grateful for what he

did. He made morally the right decision as a father, as a police officer, and he was just doing his job. So Detective Fulcher winds up being reprimanded and then resigning over how he handled Christopher Halliwell as a suspect. But the issues with prosecuting Halliwell undeniably go far beyond Steve Fulcher. The Wiltshire police in general will wind up being heavily criticized for bungling Becky's case. Specifically, after Fulcher resigns, a new lead detective isn't immediately put in charge of Becky's investigation. So basically, it grinds to a halt. An official with Britain's Independent Office for Police Conduct, it's called IOPC,

they'll eventually determine, quote, the force allowed a fog of confusion to develop regarding who was in command. This led to the murder investigation stalling, a lack of appropriate reviews, and obvious lines of inquiry that were potentially capable of securing Hollowell's conviction being overlooked. Frustratingly, Becky's family is left to advocate for themselves. But thanks to their tireless fight for justice, a new lead detective is put on the case in 2014.

So they just basically said, oh, no, no, no. We don't care what's happening in your police department. That's three years after Becky's remains are discovered. But with a chain of command now in place, they gain traction quickly. Investigators managed to piece together damning circumstantial evidence, like that Hallowell had just visited a doctor on January 3rd, 2003, just hours after Becky was last seen alive with, quote, severe scratches to his face and damage to his hand. Shit.

She fucking fought back. Yeah. During this visit, Hallowell told doctors that he'd been assaulted by a passenger he picked up in his cab. So investigators also learn in the early hours of that same day, January 3, 2003, a mechanic had driven out to a remote location six miles away from where Becky's body was eventually found to pick

up Hallowell after his cab ran out of gas. Holy shit. Yeah. And it's like, that's that thing. You read that and you go, oh yeah, it's a lock. That was sitting there the whole time. Totally. That person who drove out there was sitting there the whole time.

Totally. Didn't know there was anything to tell. They find a shovel at Hallowell's home that has what's described as, quote, rare soil on it, matching the dirt found in the field where Becky's remains were discovered. Ultimately, it won't be until 2015, three years after Hallowell is convicted for Sean's death, that he'll be charged in connection with Becky Godden-Edwards murder. So according to an article from The Independent, Hallowell tells investigators that he's willing to quote, accept responsibility for Ms. Godden's murder,

provided that the police do not ask further questions about other offenses he may have committed. End quote. What's up, Sketch? They don't seem to take him up on that. Because in 2016, the case goes to trial. This time, Christopher Halliwell makes a bizarre decision to fire his lawyers and represent himself. The thing psychopaths love to do.

This is when Shawna Callahan's mother, Elaine, who's still following the legal journey of all of this, really observes her daughter's killer for the first time. And for her, it's extraordinarily painful. She says, quote, I'd never really heard him speak before, but he took the stand and described in graphic detail how Sean was killed. As he pleaded guilty to her murder, this was the first time it was said in open court. So in a way, it was harder than before. Over the next few days, it felt like I was living in open court. So in a way it was harder than before. Over the next few days,

it felt like I was living in two different worlds. There was my regular life, dropping my son at school in the morning, and then an hour later sitting in court with Sean's murderer. It was very intense and at the end of each day, I would have a massive headache." Oh my god. Yeah. The human psyche is not fucking made for shit like that. I mean, and yet she got up and did it every day. She did. Yep. Amazing.

So finally on September 19th, 2016, the jury deliberates for just three hours before finding Christopher Halliwell guilty of Becky Godden-Edwards murder. He's sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, which is a rare sentence in England reserved for the most brutal criminals. So there's many lingering questions when it comes to this case and when it comes to his brutality. For example, The Guardian reports on Christopher Halliwell's, quote, fascination with hardcore pornography, including child abuse and bestiality. Computer search terms he used showed he

had an interest in murder, violent sex, and rape. End quote. Investigators also discover what the IOPC calls Halliwell's, quote, trophy store. This is so creepy. And it reminds me of that TikTok video that we were talking about with the guy finding all the shoes around that body of water. They find in a remote Wiltshire pond, 60 pieces of discarded women's clothing, a boot belonging to Sean O'Callaghan, a shotgun, and other suspicious items. 60 pieces of women's clothing. Holy shit. So did he admit to Becky Godden-Edwards murder because he was near the body?

And that was like... Stay here, stay in this area? Yeah, or just like, well, I'm telling you about this because this was one of the other victims here. but there's others everywhere. I'm just not going to mention that. But the police are so shocked to be hearing that that they're like... They're going to concentrate on that small area instead of... I don't know. I mean, and that, I think that a trophy store idea points to this, these

are not the only two murders. Absolutely. Police almost certainly would have found this dump site much, much earlier if they had simply followed up with witnesses who reported seeing a taxi, much like Hallowell's, multiple times in the area back in 2011. But unfortunately, because of the passage of time, any forensic evidence that was left on those items was already degraded.

Despite his resignation, Steve Fulcher continues to justify his actions. He tells The Guardian in 2017, quote, But for my intervention, Christopher Halliwell would be walking the streets right now. He definitely killed Sean in March 2011. He definitely killed Becky in March 2011. He definitely killed Becky in early 2003. You're seriously telling me there's nothing in between or either side. Why would this not be the biggest, most protracted, most vigorous investigation in the history of British policing? It isn't and it hasn't been.

Wow. Mm-hmm. So in 2021, a spokesperson for the Wiltshire police says, quote, we continue to keep an open mind in relation to any further offenses that Christopher Halliwell may have committed and will follow the evidence wherever that may take us. Meanwhile, for the families of Sean O'Callaghan and Becky Godden Edwards, the legal proceedings may have ended, but the emotional toll lingers, of course. In the days since,

the slight silver lining is both of these families have channeled their grief into a relentless pursuit of justice and reform. Becky's mother, Karen Edwards, has strongly advocated for more flexibility to pace laws to allow senior officers like Steve Fulcher to make quick decisions without threat of that evidence not being usable in court. That makes sense that it's the senior officer who has a lot to do those things for sure. Not just anyone. Not just anybody.

Absolutely. Yeah. Sean's mother Elaine, meanwhile, has specifically focused on safety around taxi services. Her push for reforms to ensure that drivers undergo more rigorous background checks has led to what's known as Sean's Law. Elaine says, quote, it's incredibly poignant and a legacy and lasting testament to Sean that something good has to come from all of this. Sean was all about helping other people, so to think her name is linked to something that

will help the wider public is just amazing. We're now trying to remember how she was instead of what happened to her. We're getting to the point where we want to include her in our conversations and laugh about times with her. As hard as that is, we want to be able to do that. Sean deserves that much." Wow. And that's the story of the investigations into the disappearances

of Sean O'Callaghan and Becky Godden-Edwards. Wow. Yeah, 2003 and 2011, in the same taxi driving ruse, there has to have been something like that's too far apart for it to just be exactly the same MO. Yes, and... With nothing in between. It's such a long period of time. Yeah. And I don't even know if I would even have thought of that.

But the trophy area, I mean like. That is. It's so eerie and creepy. It's so creepy. Wow. Great. I've never heard of that job. Thank you.

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Okay. But not, it doesn't. But it does, but it doesn't. You know? Just keep doing that over and over and don't tell me the story. Okay. So, I heard about this phenomenon that I'm going to tell you about today. I think it fits with the podcast theme and I think you're going to be fascinated by it, too. Just a warning, this begins with a count of the 9-11.

Oh, okay. So, I'm going to explain this and then I'll tell you more. Okay. So we're starting with Ron DiFrancesco. He's a money markets broker. Fun. Your favorite. Yes.

He's sitting at his desk in his office. He's on the 84th floor of the South Tower of the World Trade Center. Guess what day it is? Tuesday, September 11th, 2001. Where were you? I was in my shitty studio apartment on Grace Avenue, and my sister called me and said,

she's screaming, calling me saying they attacked the White House, and I immediately assumed she meant aliens, and I was like, here we go. Oh my God. And then I got her to calm down, and she explained what she was talking about, where I was like, here we go. And then I got her to calm down and she explained what she was talking about. Where I was like, don't make phone calls like this. She had just heard because she was living above an apartment where my cousin was below.

So my cousin ran up and did that to her and then she called me and did it to me. My grandma came and woke me up. So it's 8 54 a.m. Ron and his colleagues hear a loud boom. The lights in the office flicker and then they see smoke pouring out of the other building, the North Tower. The consensus among the people on Ron's floor is that a small passenger plane must have crashed into the other tower.

Some people immediately begin to evacuate but then an announcement over the building's intercom, I didn't know this, tells everyone to stay where they are. Yeah. And that the emergency is only in the other building, which is what one would think, right? Yeah. Ron calls his wife and reassures her that he's safe. Then a friend calls Ron at his desk. He's watching the news and tells Ron to get the hell out of the building.

Ron gets up, leaves the office, and walks toward an elevator bank. And as soon as he's out by the elevators, he hears a deafening roar and the building sways back and forth so violently that Ron thinks the whole thing is about to topple sideways. The wings of the second plane, which was banking a turn, had just cut through where Ron's office used to be now. Oh my God. Instantly causing a massive explosion from the 79th to the 84th floors. And it's only because Ron was by this particular elevator bank in the farthest part of the

floor from the crash that he's alive. The ceiling above him is opened up and pipes and wires and duct work are all dangling down into the hallway and Ron opens the door to the emergency stairway and books it. The stairs are filled with people also trying to file down and out of the building. Among them is a coworker of Ron's named Brian Clark. The two men start going down the stairs in the flow of traffic, but after they descend a few flights, the stairwell becomes full of thick smoke. And so now they're descending through the floors where the second plane's fuselage had

hit. People are coming up from those floors saying there's burning debris in the stairwell and too much smoke to keep going. And they think the best course of action is to go to the roof where a helicopter could possibly be able to rescue them. I mean, that's their only hope. Right. A few people who had been walking with Ron and Brian decided to go up with this group,

partially because of the smoke in the stairwell. It's so unbearable. But Ron and Brian hear someone crying out for help from down the stairwell. A man had become trapped under debris in the stairwell a flight or two below them, and Brian says, got to go help this guy. The man is trapped in a pile of debris on the 81st floor, three floors below Ron's office. And as Ron and Brian work to free him, Ron becomes overcome with the amount of smoke he's breathing in and he's forced to leave the two men behind to go down the stairs and

get away from the smoke. He climbs several flights and the stairwell is supposed to have reentry floors where the doors will open back out. So Ron's trying to find one of those doors to get out of the stairwell and escape the smoke. But because of a malfunction, they're all locked. He starts again back down, but now the smoke's even worse and he can't get past another pile of big debris. So the people around Ron are starting to lie down on the floor, unable to keep breathing. Ron lies down too. He thinks about his wife and their four children. Then a man says to him, quote, get up, Ron, you can do this, end quote.

I think I know what you're about to do and I love it. Okay. I think you do too. Yeah. Ron and this man start making their way down the stairs. They break through pieces of drywall and debris, but then there's an actual fire in the staircase that they come to. And the man with Ron tells him that they have to go through the flames, there's no other

way. And together they run through three floors of burning debris while Ron covers his head with his forearms. Then around the 67th floor, the stairwell is clear and lit. Ron is below the fire. He has lost track of his companion that he was with, but continues to make his way down the stairs. He passes a firefighter on his way up.

And the firefighter tells him to keep going and to get medical attention once he's out of the building. And the firefighter continues up the stairs. Finally, Ron makes it to the south tower's lobby and is directed to a safer exit for He's out of the building and the firefighter continues up the stairs. Finally Ron makes it to the south tower's lobby and is directed to a safer exit through the building's basement. He walks through one more long hallway approaching daylight where the exit is and then he hears an unimaginably loud roar and looks behind him to see a fireball coming toward him as

the building collapses. He runs into the daylight as the fireball blasts him forward. He wakes up three days later in a nearby hospital. Jesus. I know. And this is really upsetting, but the reason he was directed to the other exit is because people were jumping from the tower and landing in the main exit. It's just so horrific.

That part of it that is less spoken about now, but around the time it happened, there was actual video footage that they ran of that man. Remember, it was on the cover of, I think, Time magazine. Just like, oh my God. Isn't it crazy that there are adults who listen to this podcast who weren't alive then, who don't, who aren't living with that trauma of that day? They got their own trauma. They sure do. They sure do.

Yeah, no, I know. It's such a singular, strange, horrifying event. Okay. So Ron was the last survivor out of the building before it collapsed. Oh my god. So out of 110 floors, only four people above the 81st survived, and he's one of them. So Brian Clark and the man he pulled from beneath the debris, remember the other guy? Yeah. They are also among those four survivors. Oh good.

I fucking know. Like, hero. The second you said that, I was like, oh, now he's going to have guilt, and he's all these things. Incredible. You left him behind. Thank God. And as for the person that had helped Ron get up and run through those flames and urged

him on, that person was never really there. I love it. I love it. It's my favorite. Ron experienced something called third man syndrome. People like Ron, who have drawn on their internal resolve to survive extremely dangerous near-death events, sometimes report that another person appeared to help them or encourage them on. So today's story is about this phenomenon.

Here we go. I'm so overjoyed on this Labor Day. Right. What a gift. Oy vey. What a gift. So they. What a gift. So the main sources I used for this story is a book called The Third Man Factor, Surviving the Impossible by John Geiger, and an episode of National Geographic Explorer called The

Angel Effect. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So Third Man Syndrome, or also called Third Man Factor, gets its name from one of its most famous cases. In 1916, the famous Ernest Shackleton, your favorite bearded adventurer. I love that guy. He attempts to reach the South Pole and it was cut short when his ship was trapped in ice. Famous story. After being trapped for fucking months, can you imagine? Shackleton led a small

group of men to try and sail a small vessel to a whaling station off the coast of Antarctica, more than a thousand miles away. Over the course of their journey, the men were starving and freezing, and at the end, they had to make a 24-mile trek on foot. There were three men, but they all reported the presence of a fourth person with them, encouraging them along at the end to get to the whaling station. Like in the boat? I think in the whole trek.

Like they didn't go, wait a second, you have not been here for months and now you're here? I think they were so delirious. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. From hunger and being freezing that it's just like, okay, well, here's another. Would you rather be walking across Antarctica or would you rather be stuck in a desert, hot or cold? Cold. Cold, really? Yeah, what about you? I hate being cold. I'll take cold.

You would? Do I have a jacket and everything? Like a light, enough to keep me alive. You only have a Michael Cera style windbreaker. You don't have a good jacket. I would have to keep me alive, right? Yeah. Okay. And then also would I not get sunburnt in the desert? True, true. So like, say you won't get sunburnt and you have enough warmth to keep you alive, but

that's it. I mean. The basics. I was thinking I would pick the desert, but then sorry, you just pointed out a thing that I've literally lived with my whole life and forgot, which is that I cannot be in the sun for that long. Yeah, but you can get sunburned in the fucking freezing in the, what's it called, too? Yeah, you get like wind shaft. Yeah.

That's a very real thing. I'm going to go neither. Oh, great. We're going to pick the third of going to a really nice restaurant. A resort. Yeah, let's do it. Where it's 82 degrees at all times. Oh, beautiful. Oh my god. So this story becomes famous and the poet T.S. Eliot references it in his poem

The Wasteland, but for poetic effect he turned the fourth man into a third man, fucking artistic license. Yeah, yeah. So it's third man syndrome. Rule of three. Sure. Let's take it. Listen to this. The fourth man syndrome. No. Not as good. No one cares. The four amigos. No.

No. That's one guy's super irritating. You're just inviting him because he's your cousin. You got to turn that fat. Don't try to title it while we're doing it. I swear to God I'm not. And don't try to keep bringing up your cousin for some fucking reason. Of the documented cases of third man syndrome, a huge number of them have happened to people

in mountaineering or Arctic exploration disasters or disasters at sea. All things we'll never have to worry about. Truly, I do. Every decision I make is to prevent those things from happening to me. I mean, maybe sitting in traffic, I'll get a third man syndrome thing. I'm like, you can go on. I'll get a third man syndrome thing. I'm like, you can go on. You can.

Just keep pressing the brake. Just keep going. Just keep not going. Yeah, just keep screaming at people. So another one of the most famous examples is of a mountaineer named Frank Smythe, who attempted to summit Mount Everest, remember that fucking place, in 1933, but was caught in a blizzard in what they call

the Death Zone. And just a quick FYI, if you're fascinated by this shit, I covered deaths on Everest in episode 174 called Rough Winds, High Water in 2019. That was the name of the episode? Uh-huh. Okay. I still loved doing that one. That one was just one of my faves.

Yeah, that's good. So, while he was huddled alone in his tent, he was so sure someone else was with him that he offered the person some of his cake, like a mint cake. That's how sure he was that there was someone there. It wasn't just an apparition. Some people theorize that these environments often that have whiteout conditions or vast expanses of water can lead to a kind of sensory deprivation where people are more likely to experience hallucinations, of course.

But because of the wide variety of situations that this has been documented in, a lot of people think the third man is a survival adaptation, a tool people can call on in these extreme situations. Like it's almost evolved. Some scientists believe in a controversial theory called the bichemeral mind. And they believe that times of extreme stress can affect how the left and right hemispheres

of the brain communicate. And so some of these scientists believe that thousands of years ago, before people were literate, their brains were fundamentally different than they are now. The theory is that they experienced thought in their right brain as another person talking to them and guiding them. Which makes sense, because it's like inner thoughts. It's how it feels. It's the gods.

Yeah. It's just like, well, I better do that because I got that idea. Yeah. Someone spoke to me in my head. Have you ever seen these people who don't, there's like a tiny percent of the population that don't have an inner monologue Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. Where do I fucking what pill do I take? What a joy? What a life? Well, how quiet and lovely is your life? and then my therapist has told me of course that my inner critic is Just my inner child trying to keep me safe. Mm-hmm. So and I'm like, you're so stupid. Why did you do that? It's my inner child being like, don't try anything anymore because I'm scared of it.

Right. Why am I talking about this? That's right. Well, it's tangentially relevant. Sure. But it's also that kind of thing where the being able to be nice to those voices because being mean doesn't work no matter how good it feels to be like, you shouldn't do that anymore. Yeah. It's like now you're just doing it more.

Mm-hmm. Like you can't get rid of the things that need healing. Right. Not with being mean to them. So they argue that modern humans at a very high threshold of stress can still revert back to that state of mind. So interesting. Other scientists are going to be shocked at this.

Disagree. They disagree. Four out of five dentists interesting. Other scientists are going to be shocked at this. Disagree. They disagree. Four out of five dentists agree. That's right. Some have found parallels in brain activity between people experiencing Sturrd-Mann syndrome and people who have lost limbs and the experience of phantom sensations in those limbs. This happens because the brain has completely mapped out the way that particular limb would function in a physical space.

And the scientists believe that under stress, the brain can project its entire awareness of the self into the idea of another person being close by, like a phantom person, like a phantom limb. Interesting. And other people just generally believe that the third man is what's called a compensatory figure, an embodiment of a person's own inner resources that they need more than ever at this particular moment. So, any and all.

And then, of course, there's a lot of people who believe that they have been helped by a literal guardian angel. And in fact, that's what our Ron DeFrancisco from the beginning of the story believes. He's a practicing Catholic. He believes it was an angel guiding him out of the tower. Sure. So, another one of these accounts is from a person who also believes an angel was with her,

but in her case, it was someone she knew personally. So in August of 1997, a geomicrobiologist named Stephanie Schwab is, oh my God, this one's so fucked up, is scuba diving in a cave in the Bahamas called Mermaid's Lair. If you're claustrophobic, you're going to love this story. Good bye. Hit forward 15, forward 15, forward 15. Yeah.

The cave is accessed from what looks like a shallow area in a mangrove swamp. And looking at it from the surface, you would think it's just a few feet of water. But Stephanie, who has explored this cave before, hops into the puddle expertly and navigates to a narrow opening and begins swimming through small tight chambers in what would be complete darkness if she didn't have her dive light. Why? I don't know why people do things. Go to a bar.

What are you doing? I recently saw an interview with a guy who had a brain scan who's really into like base jumping and they have less something than we do. What is it? Like I get excited, you know, whatever, riding a bicycle. And what is it called? I don't remember, but I think I saw the exact same thing where they were showing him. I think it was the guy that Alex Honnold who climbs without ropes.

That's it, yes. And they were basically just like you're not scared of anything. You need excitement really badly, so you have to do that together. Your neurons don't fire. Some people are yelling at us. Your neurons won't fire in the way that most people's would about exciting things, something like that. If you're Alex Honnold, go ahead and write it.

Explain your brain. Explain your brain. How about your brain? So the cave system opens into a massive area people refer to as a cathedral or underwater, a blue hole. Cave diving, you're going to be shocked at this, is dangerous. It's very dangerous. Turns out. Past time. And this is not the kind of dive a person would usually do on their own, even a diver as experienced as Stephanie is.

She usually dives with her husband, a cave explorer named Rob Palmer. But Rob died six weeks earlier, failing to surface from a dive in the Red Sea. Six weeks, and he had been a world-renowned diver. Stephanie is reeling from the loss of her husband. In fact, the whole diving community is reeling. Rob was famous among divers and no one quite understands the circumstances around his death. But Stephanie also wants to continue the work

she and her husband had been doing together. Yeah. Like wanting to honor him still. She had wanted to get back into the water to prove to herself that she could keep diving without him. She says, quote, I knew for some reason it was a very powerful feeling that day that if I didn't do it then I wasn't going to do it at all. So Stephanie's area of research revolves around tracking the changes in the earth's sea levels.

And in this cave, she finds lots of evidence that it was once dry and not filled with water. She's doing research as well. For example, in some parts of the cave, there are fossilized bat droppings. Today, her goal is to find a room in the cave where the floor is filled with the fine red dust. And this dust had blown all the way to the Bahamas from the Sahara Desert and settled in the cave back when the cave had been dry. So she wants to collect samples to send the dust to a colleague and prove that it was once dry. So holding a white rope that cave divers call a guideline, Stephanie swims further into the cave system through more narrow chambers to a room filled with a red sandy floor.

She settles down on the floor with her light and begins collecting samples. When she finishes and the samples are all packed away, she looks up and realizes, you're shaking your head and you're correct. It's gonna be bad. Her guideline has drifted away. Unconsciously, Stephanie has settled back into the diving routine from when her husband was alive,

where when they dove together, he was in charge of the guideline and she focused on what she was doing, getting samples. So she kind of had forgotten she was alone on what she was doing, getting samples. So she kind of had forgotten she was alone almost. And at first Stephanie stays calm. She sees that she has about 20 more minutes worth of air in her tank. She points her light around the cave chamber looking for the line.

It's nowhere to be seen and it could have drifted anywhere within the large twisting cave system that she'd just been swimming through. So it like was retracting down somewhere. Right. It's just so fucking claustrophobic. Awful, chilling. Yep. When she checks her gauges again, she realizes she now only has enough air to sustain her

for five minutes. And that's when she panics, which of course is probably very bad to do when you're in this situation. Yes. She's flooded with terror. She believes she's going to drown alone in a pitch black cave. And then she's filled with anger at Rob

for leaving her and at herself for making this mistake and losing her guideline. Oh, damn. Then suddenly everything changes. The cave is still only illuminated by her dive light, but everything suddenly looks lighter, sharper, and more focused. And Stephanie can feel that without a doubt there's another person there with her.

Amazing. It's Rob. And he's telling her to calm down and that she can get herself out. He says one of his catchphrases to her, quote, believe you can, believe you can't, either way you're right. Come on. I right. Come on. I mean. Come on.

It's so true. Stephanie looks around the cave one more time and now in the distance she thinks she sees a flash of white. Stephanie says, quote, I thought I'm just hallucinating. And then I kind of got cheeky with myself and said, well, you know, what else have you got to do? Go look at it. Like, you know?

Yeah. Stephanie swims towards that glimpse of white. It's the guideline. Oh, fuck. Thank God. So, Stephanie is a scientist, but she's also absolutely certain that her husband helped her find her way out of the mermaid's lair that day. It wasn't just that she thought of Rob and what he would say. She says in her mind he was physically there with her.

And her entire perception of her surroundings changed. She says, quote, whether it was spiritual or whether it was biochemical, what happened caused me to calm down enough to focus again and be able to have that opportunity to find my way out. Yeah. End quote. Stephanie follows the line out of the cave, surfaces and breathes in a mouthful of Bahamian air and says, quote, I just got out, sat there for a moment in the open air and thought,

well, today was not the day to die. Oh my God. End quote. Jesus. I know. She's a tough bastard. Yeah. One of the scientists studying the bicameral mind theory believes that a sudden burst of

activity from the right brain could have both created the sense of Rob being with Stephanie and given her increased spatial awareness, he believes that this was what allowed Stephanie to find the guideline. Stephanie later participates in a study to try to prove this theory. The scientist tried to recreate the third man effect in her brain with a magnified helmet while measuring brain activity, But it doesn't work. She says maybe it's best to quote, let sleeping dogs lie, just let it be. Yeah, whatever the fuck you want it to be. Also that's what scientists have to say when they're confronted with the spiritual. Yeah,

because it's like, oh, it happened to you. Yeah. So sure, it would be cool to be like, oh, this is what the brain does, but it's like, but also we don't know. Jesus. And that is a story of Stephanie Schwab, Ron DiFrancisco, and the third man who enabled both of them to find their way out of impossibly dangerous circumstances. Incredible. I loved that story, those stories.

Okay, I just have to mention this, and I think I've actually already told you this on this podcast. There's an episode of the podcast Spooked, which I've recommended multiple times. It's so good. It's first person, people telling creepy stories of things that happen in them. Yeah, so good. And this woman tells the story of being a little girl and basically being out somewhere. I can't remember

the details, but this exact thing happens to her, where a man is chasing her in a car and she runs like through a field and he's trying to find her and a voice is like going, get down. And then she gets down when the voices get down and then when the voice says run, she runs and the voice says run, she runs, and the voice gets her home. Oh my God. If you have a third man story or something like this, please write it in for our hometown episode, our mini episode, My Favorite Murderer at Gmail.

You've got to fucking hear these. I mean, they're incredible. And also it's like the people it happens to, it's up to them. Oh, sure. You know, what they think it is and like, what do we know? Because it's all the same thing, you know? Right. It's all the same.

But, man. I know. So wild. Let's do, let's end this with a couple, what are you even doing right now? Where you guys tell us what you're even doing right now? Yeah. While you listen to this podcast. Okay. This is from Katz in Berlin. What are you even doing right now? Just sitting at

a drop zone in the middle of the Czech Republic waiting for the wind to reduce so I can go back to skydiving. What are the chances? And then it says, yes, I know, your worst nightmare, but this is what I do for fun during my free time and good weather. Wow. Insane. That's wild.

Isn't that amazing? We're so happy for you. Congratulations. Do you want an extra time for us? Yeah. You could take our turn. Yeah. No shit, but fuck no.

Oh my God, no. I'm an indoor kid. Okay. Mine is from our Gmail inbox. It's, what am I even doing right now? Plucking chin hairs, always plucking chin hairs. Oh, the joys of PCOS and perimenopause. Yeah.

Emily. Emily. Emily, you're so not alone. I feel you. Again, I want to reference that woman who came to our show in, I think, Seattle or Vancouver. She made a sign that said, I shaved my face for this. Love you. The funniest. The best. You got one more? The first one was also from Instagram. This one is too. It's from Kelly Layton and it says at the Jersey Shore listening to you talk about shark attacks

on the Jersey Shore. Yeah don't go in the water. That's all. They're not going to come get you on land. That would be very upsetting to be in the place where we're telling a story from. Absolutely. I have always, well, thanks for listening. Send us stuff or comment on things and get involved. This is your community. You got to get involved. We're just the loud people at the top. We have nothing else to do with it. We just have to get involved. Yeah. We're just the loud people at the top. Yep. We have nothing else to do with it. We just have the karaoke machine. You need to get in here and start picking some tracks. Oh my God, that's so true.

That's exactly right. Right? Oh, and one more thing. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to MyFavoriteMurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFaveMurder. Goodbye.